What is the real story; what really happend that we do not know?

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   dutchman1951posted 14 years ago

   I am studying, really hard. Trying to make a solid research attempt. Note cards all of it. Pouring over the Stacks, @ Vanderbilt, Univ. of Tenn., on-line, Libraries etc...
   
   I want to know what Jesus really said. What I am finding so far, is not what is coming out of the Pulpit at church.
   
   What is missing? What is it that we are not allowed to see? What is really buried in the Catacombs at the Vatican? What is kept locked in museum rooms, not available?
   
   There are all sorts of missing meanings etc...
   I can not get to the story I was taught from the evidence I have seen and read to date? I am trying, I honestly am.
   
   I feel inside me, there is a God, I do. But who is he?
   
   Anyone else studying sincerely, and running into this? From what I can see to date Jesus was indeed real, but what did he really say?
   
   It appears, to me, so far, to be very different from what is interpreted in my church at least? and I am starting to suspect, from conversations with others, this is not un-common.

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      Shadesbreathposted 14 years agoin reply to this

      If you really want to try to fathom God, study ALL the religions, not just Christianity. So many faiths came before Christianty and eventually became it.  Asia and Africa and the Americas all have amazing religious traditions as well.  Read around the world and deeply back into time and you'll get a great view of what God/Gods and spirits have meant to humanity and how they have been described and investigated. 
      
      The takeaway is that they all serve the same purpose, to enforce social behaviors.  They all value at their core, social stability, love, compassion, work ethic... etc.  Which is not to say they don't get conscripted by power, but typically that power that corrupts the faith only became power because the society did well enough initially to allow for power to accumulate, the sad irony that plagues our world this very moment.
      
      I think a thorough investigation of God will lead you not to Christianity or any other of the multitude of religions but a recognition of what really matters to the human condition, and if there is actually a god, it/he/she probably resides somewhere in that truth, not in one of any number of dusty old books and scrolls.

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         dutchman1951posted 14 years agoin reply to this

         so far...that is exactly what I am finding.

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      Brenda Durhamposted 14 years agoin reply to this

      I've heard other people mention that the Catholic Church has writings hidden.
      Umm.....seriously, IF you have the Truth already (the Bible), why would you be so curious about other writings?
      The catechisms of many Catholic priests already go directly against what the Bible teaches, so......why would you even want to see more of that?

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         dutchman1951posted 14 years agoin reply to this

         I have all versions of the Bible, and much research on Jeasus his movements his teachings etc....
         
         The catacombs are a storage place for a lot more cataloged writings than just catholic, and they keep it locked, not hidden.  They refuse you access to read it, but catalog it openly. They are not hiding anything, just refusing people access and its wrong. They will tell you the meanings, interpret it for you, and send it to you like an encyclopedia service!!!!!
         
         There are Jewish, Muslum as well as Christian findings there and cataloged.
         
         And so do the same for some of the Many locations around the Globe that suposidly have things archived.
         
         The Bible is ok to be questioned, and not followed blind, it has much to offer if you see and ask. God tells you to ask him, to seek. 
         
         But there are also actual accounts that are missing, and are not there and some I have had the privilage to see, with special permissions from Professors doing research, are eye opening in facts.

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      paarsurreyposted 14 years agoin reply to this

      That you will know when you discover that Jesus did not die a cursed death on Cross.
      
      It is Paul,the Church and their associates who has hijacked the true teachings of Jesus and his true character.
      
      Concentrate on this single point and you will know the truth.

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         dutchman1951posted 14 years agoin reply to this

         paar;
         
         Paul did not hijack anything, He did "not" write Romas. It was a put togeather book done at the Cannons in the 1500's, tis the Romans we read today. pauls letters are included, actualy several places, Books refer to the letters in truth.
         
         For Instance in Pauls letter to Rome, 12.13 and 14, the Churches interpret this as Paul telling people to submitt to Goverments and behave according to mans Law. Because it pleases God.  It is crap! Christian Rome hijacked the book.
         
         He was writing to the Believer's in Rome, telling them to submitt only to the Goverment of God, not to any man made Goverment.
         
         If he was doing the other, just up-holding Rome then he would not have been killed. Cezar was not stupid he would not kill the hand that up-held his governess! Think!
         
         also He is upholding the First comming, Jesus on the Earth. There was, because it was a state legal proceding of Roman Charge, and does exhist a complete account of the Conversation Pilot had with Jesus, and it is Omitted and what is left is edited siverely
         
         Jesus said he was King of the Jews, He told Pilot, why do these leaders say Christ is comming when I am here at hand, he ment what he said. He was there to set the Spiritual Goverment of God in motion over man. And all they had to do was join him!
         
         There were no words as to a second comming at all. Nothing about Sin and redemption to enter the Goverment of God, nothing about comming back for any choosen few. You Just acept it. The first comming set the Governace of God for man. It was sucessfull.
         
         Another piece of evidence left off in some versions is the Answer Pilot gave to the Religious Leaders who condemed him, after He answerd Pilot.. They planned the type of death for Him and They asked Pilot to write on his cross; "He who said he was King of the Jews, and Pilot told them then, NO
         
         He said he would write what he is; "King of the Jews" Pilot knew!
         
         What happend in that room? it is hidden Just like the Last supper was Changed.
         
         He did not come to say good-bye to those men. He was intended to be killed by the Religious leaders, "NOT by Gods decision or plan".
         
         The supper was a feast of celibration as Jesus laid out the charge of Gods Goverment and what each Apostile was to do in their appointed offices. He had taught them as much as he saw fit to, and now was charging them with duties to cary out.
         
         He was not finished as it is implied, he was killed (assasinated by them) before the job was compleated.
         
         If It was, anything by modern deffinition, it was a spritual caucus!  Jesus, laying out the platform of Gods base. He was removing the Ferises religious authorities and giving dominion to God. Thats what killed him.
         
         He spent much time telling the Deciples they would face the same fate as he will, for not only up-holding God over Cesar and or King. But for dutifull obidence to the Law. He told them several times if you live by the law you will be judged by the law. He meant they will face mans judgement of them at some time comming. They are bound to fail. It was a warning to be carefull. He was revolutionary, not dosile.
         
         All the people today, worry about was who is in the Picture at the Table and what was eaten??? thats nuts. Much more was given to man then, much more we do not see, and need to know about;
         what was really intended for us?
         
         and more than you have in the Koran or Bible is available for you if you hunt it out. think
         
         There are many more holes in this story and to many holes to follow blindly man, way to many. .

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      Mark Knowlesposted 14 years agoin reply to this

      LOL I am touring the private areas of the Vatican later this month with a friend. I will let you know if I come across anything. In the meantime I suggest looking inwards instead of out. This personal invisible entity  the religionists worship and think is going to come and force me to my knees is very funny. And causes a lot of fights.

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         dutchman1951posted 14 years agoin reply to this

         I agree Mark, i'd like to hear what is there, if they allow you to see it.
         Hope so. Hub it with photos it will be something to see and read.
         
         Your right about the fights, and the bad thing about it is it is not worth a world conflict consuming everyone in the anger. But it is happening.

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      getitriteposted 14 years agoin reply to this

      
      
      I hope that after carefully analyzing, you come to the understanding that man is too deceptive to trust, and that these so-called inspired documents are simply the deception of man.  No one knows who God is, what He wants, or if He even exists.

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         dutchman1951posted 14 years agoin reply to this

         getitrite  I do not know what it all will bring, but I am not feeling distrust in Jesus. I think he honestly exhisted.

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            getitriteposted 14 years agoin reply to this

            
            
            Rid yourself of the fear.  That's all it is.  Let courage guide you through your search for the truth.  If not, you will be vulnerable to the evil that man has used to blind us.
            
            I guess Jesus did exist.  But that's about as far as I will believe.

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            LeslieAdrienneposted 14 years agoin reply to this

            dutchman1951,
            
            Jesus will reveal more of himself to you as you ask Him to.  There are a vast number of documents archived that will give us a deeper, clearer historical understanding. But nothing will satisfy the hunger for clarity that you have outside of that personal relationship with the Lord.
            
            We should question everything, because truth will always rise to the surface.
            
            You are grounded in the fact that Jesus exists...so, why don't you spend the next 30 days reading only the New Testament? See what happens...as an avid researcher it might do you good to simply try and receive through your spirit.
            
            I know that you wonder what Jesus actually said, but one of the things that might be easier to believe is in John 16:13 Howbeit, when he, the spirit of truth comes, he will guide you into all truth... just Jesus to reveal Himself to you.....

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      Neil Sperlingposted 14 years agoin reply to this

      Great thread! - To study mysticism along with all religions I think the answer may be in that. Mysticism would include some new age, Quantum Physics, Uranthia and AMORC.
      
      To the journey!

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      IntimatEvolutionposted 14 years agoin reply to this

      Read the Gnostic Gospels such as Mary Magellan, Gospel of Philip, Gospel of Thomas, The Gospel of Jesus.  I've written several articles about the origins of Christianity, and the Gospels that support Christ and represent his actual words.  In my research, I always end up turning to many of the Gnostic Gospels for this knowledge.  I think you will find truth in there.  Good luck.

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      Greek Oneposted 14 years agoin reply to this

      There is an old Greek proverb which should rest your mind and assure you that you are on the right path.  Loosely translated it states "Seek and you shall find the truth at the University of Tennessee"

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         klarawieckposted 14 years agoin reply to this

         LOL

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2. 0

   klarawieckposted 14 years ago

   We are still speaking the different tongues of Babel. One single book gets a million interpretations. The truth lies in you, not outside. You can study all the religions you want, but at the end of it all, you have to believe in your own personal truth, and not what anyone teaches you. You will never find the truth in a book written by men. You need to meditate and unveil your own God.

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      paarsurreyposted 14 years agoin reply to this

      I think Turth lies inside as well outside; in all the directions, in my opinion.

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         luvpassionposted 14 years agoin reply to this

         No you don't Mr. Paar you've made it plain multiple times in these forums that you believe the truth lies in the Quran.
         
         You have to say 50 hail Muhammids or whatever for fibbing.

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            klarawieckposted 14 years agoin reply to this

            The Quran as the Bible were written by MEN. Inspired by God or not, you can't take what MEN write as the ultimate truth. Human beings, by nature, tend to exagerate and will write according to their perspective.

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               paarsurreyposted 14 years agoin reply to this

               Quran was never authored by Muhammad; he could not do it. It is authored by the Creator-God Allah YHWH.
               
               It also includes the truthful accounts of Jesus and Mary and truthful teachings of Jesus. Gospels fail to mention that.
               
               Any body searching for the truthful teachings, character and accounts of Jesus , must read Quran; it has several chapters on  them.
               
               Thanks

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                  luvpassionposted 14 years agoin reply to this

                  See 50 hail Muhammads and 20 our Allah's for saying you think the Quran is the truth.

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      dutchman1951posted 14 years agoin reply to this

      Karla, the truth for me is there is a God, I just want to know what was really said by him, not  by my self interpretation of a book.  Or a 20 min Sunday school version. I  consider the points made, may or may not in truth acept them, but I do look and study the reasons why I would or would not agree.
      
      so I question what really happened.. There honestly are some holes.
      But they in no way deminish God. Just mans interpretation of him.

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3. 58

   Jeramiposted 14 years ago

   dutchman1951   wrote   
   I want to know what Jesus really said. What I am finding so far, is not what is coming out of the Pulpit at church.
      What is missing? What is it that we are not allowed to see?
   ========================================================
   
   Jerami
   I hear an eccho...  I have asking the same thing.
   
   Another question of equal importance is why would they hide it?
   
   The Chatholic church has been collecting every document that they could get their hands on since "their" beginning.
   
     I think that it all has more to do with those things that Jesus said concerning the fulfillment of prophesy.
   
      Imagine if "The Rapture" were to happen today. 
      By the time that a generation has passed, all evidence of that event would have be burried.
      
      The people will still want a religion to follow. So one will be established that suits everyones purpose.
   
      Back to the OP  I would love to read more of the things that Jesus taught.  I always wondered why there wasn't more!
   
      During the three and a half years that he taught his disciples, Jesus had to have covered many , many other important issues than the ones recorded in scripture.
   
       As I have mentioned hundreds of times on this forum, The churches today aren't even teaching the things that are contained in scripture correctly.
   
      Your question;  (For Me)  have been answered after many years of study of what is  ACTUALLY  written in prophesy.
   
      And we then have to ask ourselves, WHY does the churches not teach what is written. 
      They teach Interpretations of Interpretations.
   
      The answer to that question is ....
     "That is the way they were taught for many centuries"
        
      Again,  Why is that?

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      dutchman1951posted 14 years agoin reply to this

      we are being indocrinated to think one way only, and Jesus told us he was not to be catagorised. He meant it I think.

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         Jeramiposted 14 years agoin reply to this

         To the best of my understanding, All of this is explained in the prophesy. But due to 1000s if interpretations over the past 1900 years, the message that was delivered in both Daniel and revelation has been shuffled and tossed and turned to the extent that no one knows where to begin untangeling the mess.
         
             All due to the church in Rome.
         
         Hiding what it doesn't want to be known.  The story that they left us with would have been sufficient had they not interpreted just a few important facts.
            That created a need for endless interpretations to explain partial truths. Always leaving us with an incomplete story. 
         
            I truly believe that Daniel 9:23 through 27 is the key to unraveling the twisted rope and laying prophesy out in a simple 1,2,3,4,5,6,etc connect the dots picture of what went on from 538 BC until the dispensation of that hebrew Nation. (138 AD)
         
             By using the information provided in Daniel, the dots continue up to the present day.
         
           So the prophesy given in Daniel and Rev. tell a story beginning in 538 BC and ending some time in the near futurThese prophesy have been continously unfolding for the past 2548 years.
         
             I think that this is what the Church in Rome has been hiding in their faults all this time.

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            dutchman1951posted 14 years agoin reply to this

            you may have something here Jerami, looking at this

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               stilljustwonderinposted 14 years agoin reply to this

               I want to see too!  Will ya share?

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               Jeramiposted 14 years agoin reply to this

               I began looking into that approx ten years ago.
               
                  It was tough or the first year.  I would come to what appeared as a road block in my line of thinking. A verse that at first would appear to be a direct contradiction to this theory.  After long consideration that verse wasn't actually saying what I had been programed to think that it was saying.
               
                   After a couple of years I had become accustomed to reading scripture unhindered by my many preconceived ideas as to what I was reading.
                   It is natural for us to think that we already know what the sentence is going to say before we read it.  Especially when we have read it before.
               
                  We tend to read into things stuff that isn't there.
                  
                 When we quit doing that, we see things completely differently.
               
                  Daniel does establish a fairly clear time line comparing a prophetic period of time with earthly time.
               
                  When we follow that timeline comparison through all of prophesy the picture becomes clear.   62 weeks in prophesy = approx 568 years.
                  Begin your studies there and let me know if it doesn't take you to some interesting conclusions.
                   And feel free to E-mail if you wish.

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   Brenda Durhamposted 14 years ago

   Okay.  So who has access to it?
   Wouldn't a Catholic church member be able to obtain access to it, or do they keep it locked from everyone who's not a priest, or the Pope?....

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      dutchman1951posted 14 years agoin reply to this

      you have to register and they check your credentials, and notify you of your level of access. When you go you  have an escort that drops you at a table, and you request in writing what you wish to read. They bring it to you.
      
      They do this and have many rules to follow. some silly and some understandable, like no lights, no pictures, shoe covers, no touching pages by hand etc...those i understand well. But the ones that say, you do not have intelectual need to know?  I have a problem with those!

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         Brenda Durhamposted 14 years agoin reply to this

         Gosh, sounds rather creepy!
         Guess they wouldn't let anyone use a copy machine to get copies of anything either....?  lol
         
         Well, honestly, I can't imagine any real reason to keep anything so secretive.
         Unless maybe they have Noah's Ark hidden in there somewhere.  hahhhaa  TOTALLY kidding.

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            LeslieAdrienneposted 14 years agoin reply to this

            

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            dutchman1951posted 14 years agoin reply to this

            Brenda it is wierd the way they do, they make it so  ecleastical and so pompus its silly. Nothing there to me should ever be held back to anyone.
            
            it is creepy.

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5. 59

   mikelongposted 14 years ago

   What is the Bible after all?
   
   What about the Book of Enoch, the Gospel of Mary Magdelene, and the many many many other texts that the Western Church deemed unsuitable....
   
   And again, the fact that people keep looking to the western churches as opposed to their eastern counterparts says a lot...
   
   Imperialism......this is what the Bible represents.....one version that stamps down and denies the authority of others.....and all of it was constructed by humans....men...who had their status only based on their material status....
   
   There is nothing divinely inspired about this.....

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   Mishaposted 14 years ago

   If you did not read it yet, try the gospel of Mary. Interesting, to say the least.

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      paarsurreyposted 14 years agoin reply to this

      I don't find any gospel of Mary in the Bible. Quran has a chapter named after her.

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         Mishaposted 14 years agoin reply to this

         Did I say it is in the bible? No I did not.

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            luvpassionposted 14 years agoin reply to this

            The book of Mary wasn't included in the KJV of the bible Mr. Paar. You see, it was all part of that pick and choose mentality at the time. Try the gnostic books.

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               paarsurreyposted 14 years agoin reply to this

               They were very cruel to Jesus teachings; pick and choose; and then they , the Christians, say the book were inspired. Inspired by whom?
               
               One could guess the obvious.

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         Greek Oneposted 14 years agoin reply to this

         Combined the Chapter with Mary with those of Peter and Paul, and you've got a kick ass folk story

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   Cagsilposted 14 years ago

   Hey Dutchman,
   
   Jesus' version of "god" was spoken to people, so as to get them to bring about "self-mastery", in love and compassion.
   
   If you do research religion, check for just one thing...
   
   See when the use of the singular word "I" began.
   
   The metaphoric parables Jesus taught to people was his own method for talking in the religious primitive language available.
   
   The metaphor "god" is about self. The true potential of controlling your individual thoughts and action, and to do it through love and compassion, for those who do not know any better.
   
   You are to love yourself first, love others and find the compassion, to accept those around you, so you can live peaceful.
   
   I'll leave it at that.

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      dutchman1951posted 14 years agoin reply to this

      In keeping here Cag I believe he charged us to two very simple tasks. Hold 'AGAPE" love ...Love for all human-kind reguardless, and do not seperate from me.
      
      The original deffinition of sin; "Speration from God"  not sin like we imply it today. I am looking for the passage but I believe it said if you can not do anything else, do these two things.
      
      I 'll find it and post it. But yes you are correct, be at peace inside.
      I have not achieved it, but want very much to.

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         Cagsilposted 14 years agoin reply to this

         Then understand one simple ideology- YOU are "god" of your own life. You hear your own thoughts and YOU decide on what actions you take.
         
         I wrote a hub- A Single Ideology To Gain Wisdom, if you care to read it.
         
         Please do yourself a favor, any scripture from the bible or any other religion, is out of context and done so purposely, so blind faith is required for believing.
         
         Those who attempt to live within the "Doctrine" of any religion, end the road/path, at a self-realization that there is no god.
         
         The reason for that is because the "Doctrine" are unattainable by humans, because of multiple reasons. One being, "doctrine" #2 will drive one insane, if attempted on a permanent basis.
         
         Just a thought.

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            dutchman1951posted 14 years agoin reply to this

            I am off to read this Hub, interesting thoughts.
            
            What you are saying here "Those who attempt to live within the "Doctrine" of any religion, end the road/path, at a self-realization that there is no god."
            
            I have seen this in one friend happen.

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8. 0

   Will Bensonposted 14 years ago

   Dutchman 1951 wrote:
   "I am studying, really hard. Trying to make a solid research attempt. Note cards all of it. Pouring over the Stacks, @ Vanderbilt, Univ. of Tenn., on-line, Libraries etc..."
   
   Will Benson wrote:
   "It's heartening to see someone pursue knowledge by using their own intellect and judgment, and not by choosing to blindly follow the opinions of another. I predict that your open mind will lead you to greater wisdom, although maybe not to definitive answers.
   
   Good luck."

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      dutchman1951posted 14 years agoin reply to this

      thank you Will, I am trying

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9. 72

   earnestshubposted 14 years ago

   Just a small point.
   
   Jesus never wrote one word of any of it. Just a bunch of people saying what he said.
   Where did jesus say anything anywhere?
   
   Maybe you could ask Jimmy Cheek about it.

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      dutchman1951posted 14 years agoin reply to this

      not so sure Dr. Cheek would be available at U.T. for a rousing discussion.
      but....
      
      I believe he spoke, others wrote, Evidence to His exhistance is there, but the hole's in the story are vast at places. Many whitnesses after the fact and  even with that excluded,  There is still something there. I am not convinced it is a total crock Earnest, I do not think that. I am trying to find out what is there.

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         earnestshubposted 14 years agoin reply to this

         Well at least the "others wrote" part is certain.
         I know from experience that evangelistic Baptist have a fair bit of data they base their version of christianity on and the Christian Businessman's Committee have a great story that ties the OT and NT jesus together if that is any help.

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            dutchman1951posted 14 years agoin reply to this

            I am taking notes here, will check this, thank you. excelent tips. most appreciated kind sir.

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               earnestshubposted 14 years agoin reply to this

               You are most welcome.

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    Jeramiposted 14 years ago

    I realize that everyone is getting tired of hearing this.
    
      Only temporarily forget everything that anyone has told you about scripture.
    
       Read only those things that Jesus is said to have said.
    Then apply everything that the disciples said,   but see if you can make sense of it while keeping the words of the disciples in total agreement with what Jesus said.
      Instead of interpreting Jesus' words to conform to the disciples;  try it the other way.
    
      You should find that it works quite well, even though this comes to a different conclusion. One that is not very popular.
    
      Does the church follow the teachings of Jesus?  Or someone else?

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       stilljustwonderinposted 14 years agoin reply to this

       The "church" has become organized.  They teach what they are told to teach.
       That's why we need to study scripture our selves.
       How long has it been since you have been to a church that stepped on your toes?  They don't any more.  They don't want to offend members of their congregation.  If they offend church members they might get less money in the collection plate.  I'm sorry, but I believe that is the truth.   I'm sorry, but none of us are perfect.  We should all get our toes stepped on once in a while!  The "church" is not doing it's job.
       I'll quit ranting. 
       I think the answer to your question is,
       The church teaches what ever they are told to teach.

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          dutchman1951posted 14 years agoin reply to this

          I agree, they indeed cater to donations

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             stilljustwonderinposted 14 years agoin reply to this

             I enjoyed church so much more when I got my toes stepped on once in a while.  My first time at one church, at the beginning of service I was asked to come up and sing.  No, I couldn't do that!  The service was about people not doing what they are asked to do for God.  I felt small enough to sit on a dime and hang my legs off.  The next service, at the beginning of service when they asked if some one would come up and sing,  I ran up there!
             
             I'm not perfect, step on my toes so I know what to work on.

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                Jeramiposted 14 years agoin reply to this

                I thought you were !

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                   stilljustwonderinposted 14 years agoin reply to this

                   LOL  That's cause ya love me!
                   There is always room for improvement.
                   
                   Love ya

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                dutchman1951posted 14 years agoin reply to this

                still, sometimes the nudge makes a difference. makes you wake up a  bit and think. I have to agree.

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                   stilljustwonderinposted 14 years agoin reply to this

                   They sure made me get up and sing!  lol
                   
                   Sorry about the rant.  It is just my pet peeve.  Pastor's should be stepping on toes,  and telling us the truth.  Sorry.

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                      Jeramiposted 14 years agoin reply to this

                      They haven't seen you rant  YET

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                         stilljustwonderinposted 14 years agoin reply to this

                         Lol, you haven't either.  I have grown past the temper fits.  lol
                         You missed those, you should be glad.

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       dutchman1951posted 14 years agoin reply to this

       Interesting study technique to study with Jerami

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          Jeramiposted 14 years agoin reply to this

          That has brought me to the place that I am at.
          
            Many will say that "that explains it"  "Too bad you can't take
          it back where it was"
          
             And I'd say, "I don't think I would if I could"
          
            But this doesn't necessarily answer your OP about what Jesus actually taught.
          
            I wish I knew that.

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             dutchman1951posted 14 years agoin reply to this

             in time, I hink we will see it.

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                earnestshubposted 14 years agoin reply to this

                I believe that in time you may both see it, but you will need to do a lot of research.
                It would also seem that a fair percentage of that research should be outside "the word"

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