Holding a whole religion accountable for the sins of the few

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   paarsurreyposted 12 years ago

   Hi friends
   
   I appreciate post of our friend  yoshi97.
   http://hubpages.com/forum/topic/52955?p … ost1211545
   
   Following points could resolve the present impasse:
   
   1.    "True Islam does not preach anger or war, but how would we know differently, given the actions of radical Muslims. Still, we must see through the veil being pulled over our eyes and realize that Islam is not our enemy, nor are Muslims. Our true enemy is a group of people who pretend to be true Muslims, while their own actions defy their faith."
   2.    "It's the radicals we need to give a message to - not the Muslim religion"
   3.    "Why should any Muslim extend his hand to help us when we place them all in the same pot?"
   4.    "Horrible acts occur all around us, and we should all be enraged that they occur. However, holding a whole religion accountable for the sins of the few is not the way to resolve this."
   5.    "The radicals want us to hate the Muslims as it furthers their cause. By showing American hatred for Muslims worldwide, we make it easy for impressionable young men to abandon their true faith and join an organization sworn to hate all those who are said to strike out at Muslims."
   6.    "A far better retaliation would be to invest heavily in Muslim communities that abhor the violence dealt to us on 911. In doing so, we could show the Muslim faith that we appreciate those who stood beside us, and that we can tell the difference between terrorists and truly religious people."
   _________________________________________________
   
   A sane voice; isn’t it?

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      exorterposted 12 years agoin reply to this

      the Muslim radicals judge all Christians by the acts of a few,
      Americans need to stop acting like radicals.
      but I am starting to believe that most Americans are getting way off base with their feelings. America is taking God out of every thing they can.
      If you take God out, evil steps in.

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      Brenda Durhamposted 12 years agoin reply to this

      Almost.
      But you've called for America to "invest heavily in Muslim communities"!  as though Muslims are just another minority group in America that we are somehow responsible for handing out "civil rights" to!
      Why don't the Muslims instead "invest heavily" in Christianity here in America?????

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         Ron Montgomeryposted 12 years agoin reply to this

         Why?  Because so many Christo-fascists preach violence and hatred toward gays and lesbians,ethnic minorities and certain fish species.
         
         Until these zealots repent and follow the TRUE word of God, they should be shunned by society.

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            Brenda Durhamposted 12 years agoin reply to this

            I'm already shunned by a lot of society!  LOL
            Ron, I can always go back to the term "hogwash" if that'll make you feel any better about the poor carp.

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               Ron Montgomeryposted 12 years agoin reply to this

               Thank you.  According to science, many of my ancient ancestors were carp-like.  I can't help but take it personally when you demean my heritage.

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                  Brenda Durhamposted 12 years agoin reply to this

                  Hogwash.
                  
                  
                  (Just practicing).
                  
                  Is that better?   I sure don't want PETA after me.  They have POLICE OFFICERS now, ya know.  Scary!
                  I wonder how long it will be before we're forced to be vegetarians or synthetics-eaters only, so that the sacred cow can have civil rights?

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                  Greek Oneposted 12 years agoin reply to this

                  In a time long ago....
                  
                  

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                     Ron Montgomeryposted 12 years agoin reply to this

                     

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            exorterposted 12 years agoin reply to this

            Ron, they do not preach hate toward the gays and lesbians, they preach that, that kind of life style will lead them to hell

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               Ron Montgomeryposted 12 years agoin reply to this

               Good point; what's hateful about wanting someone to burn in eternal hellfire for being as God made them?

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                  hanging outposted 12 years agoin reply to this

                  God doesn't make gay people. Its a choice. "Male and female created he them". Its in the book, read about it.  TV is the new bible and TV says being gay is okay. Makes me squeemish actually, always did.
                  Gay male cooks, i don't think so.
                  to much of either estrogen or testosterone? Women who look like women should be women, too much hair? then shave. Men who look like men, thats your gender.
                  Once again we have a situation that if it isn't clear cut as to what's going on we blame God. Wake up people We are NOT living in the Garden anymore. Free will means just that, a world of people making their own decisions. You think you are gay, uhuh, thats just TV sending you strong delusion. You all think God coming down out of the skies will be the solution to everything. Hello, already tried that, the OT is full of that, some awesome signs and wonders but did not make a people sin less or sinless.
                  And about burning in hell. It is by holy necessity that God require a people who are sinless in this life to live in the next. Sin destroys and eternity is the minimal amount of time we are talking about. In case you haven't heard its not eternal hell, its hell for a period of time and then to be extinguished, again into another fire, gehenna fire, which destroys and burns garbage, the lake of fire.

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         exorterposted 12 years agoin reply to this

         we do not have to invest any thing into Muslim communities, just do not hold them accountable for the radicals

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            paarsurreyposted 12 years agoin reply to this

            I appreciate your viewpoint.

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         dutchman1951posted 12 years agoin reply to this

         excelent point, well said Brenda

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      dutchman1951posted 12 years agoin reply to this

      question please.
      where are the masses of Peaceful Muslims that would band together, rise up and say no more to these radical Gihadists? You say they are the problem, so rise up and fight with the rest of us, help us to eliminate them and stop this insanity then, 
      
      you want investment...work to earn it. Believe me it would be noticed and people whould side with you. You are needed in this world.

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         paarsurreyposted 12 years agoin reply to this

         Thanks for your appreciation.
         
         Just differentiate between radicals and the peaceful. Support the peaceful and shun the radicals peacefully; that is needed only and it will work.
         
         The rest is politics

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            Beelzedadposted 12 years agoin reply to this

            In other words, do nothing.

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   paarsurreyposted 12 years ago

   "True Islam does not preach anger or war"
   
   It is true

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      skipper112posted 12 years agoin reply to this

      SHOW THE QUOTE'S FROM THE QURAN that preach peace to Christians and Jews ONLY QUOTE'S FROM THE QURAN  page and verse

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         paarsurreyposted 12 years agoin reply to this

         [3:20]
         
         http://www.alislam.org/quran/search2/sh … p;verse=19

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            skipper112posted 12 years agoin reply to this

            that is no QUOTE paar YOU TELL US WERE THE QURAN PREACHES PEACE TO_WARDS CHRISTIANS AND JEWS

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   Mark Knowlesposted 12 years ago

   The only reason the radical minority can survive is because they are shielded by the many that do not behave in a radical manner.
   
   They are also being purposefully hidden from justice by the non radical majority, therefore the entire religion is at fault.
   
   This applies to all irrational belief systems that imagine there is a god. It teaches people not to think for themselves and defend their "congregation," at all costs. The same applies to governments and political parties - which is what these religions really are.
   
   By their very nature - Islam or Christianity - they are destined to cause conflict and war. Both were spread by violence and hatred and are causing conflict to this day.
   
   I hold myself partly responsible for the reprehensible behavior of my government and am ashamed that I am powerless to stop it.
   
   Until such times as both religions remove these radical elements themselves - they are partly responsible.

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      Joy56posted 12 years agoin reply to this

      I have to agree Mark.  Similar to the catholic church shielding the priests i understand why people turn away from religion.  The bible is a different matter, i like the book, am still learning a lot from it..... It certainly was well written.

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      hanging outposted 12 years agoin reply to this

      
      maybe you can get a job on a stage as a comedian
      
      There are radicals in every walk of life including the secular. Prisons have quite a few radicals. In the 60's everybody under 30 was a radical. To say that radicals need to be removed is to stunt human progress and really just have a culture that not even doesn't think for itself but doesn't think at all.
      Ahhh a world of atheists, then we would have to be asking why there are starving in the countries where christians used to be feeding the hungry. Yep i will listen to the conflict inducing rantings of the bitter, hateful, atheist any day. Bring on Armageddon cuz we all dun gunna die anyway yuk yuk yuk.
      

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   aguasilverposted 12 years ago

   I will start viewing Islam as a religion of peace when the following occurs:
   
   1. All Islamic countries recognise the right to freedom of religion and the establishment of places of worship for all non Islamic religions, in Islamic states.
   
   2. Islamic leaders unequivocally declare equal rights to women.
   
   3. People born INTO the Islamic faith are given the right choose which faith they follow without fear of death for leaving the Islamic faith.
   
   4. All Muslims are ordered by their religious leaders to refuse aid to any terrorist organisation and to inform the relevant authorities whenever they become aware of a planned terrorist attack.
   
   Settle these four points and I will begin to see Islam as peaceful and relevant to the modern world.

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      h.a.borcichposted 12 years agoin reply to this

      I sooooo agree. Hi John

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      Ron Montgomeryposted 12 years agoin reply to this

      I'd say 1.2 Billion and growing is a population already relevant to our world.
      
      Will you apply the same points to Christianity?
      
      Are women treated as equals including opportunities for leadership in all Christian denominations?
      
      Will Christian leaders like Graham and Hagee condemn violence against Muslims in America?
      
      Will the Christians of America apologizes for vaporizing hundreds of thousands of innocent Japanese civilians during the most horrific terrorist attack in history.
      
      Is hypocrisy considered a sin under Christian law?

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         h.a.borcichposted 12 years agoin reply to this

         As a christian I have no problem with the points John stated. I would believe the fellow christians I associate with would agree.
         
         As far as what Hagee and Graham think or do - I haven't kept up with them and cannot say what they would do.
         
         What is your point about this:
         Will the Christians of America apologizes for vaporizing hundreds of thousands of innocent Japanese civilians during the most horrific terrorist attack in history.
         
         As a christian you hold me responsible for this? As an American you hold me responsible for this? You are aware that I was not born yet nor a participant? Can you explain your thinking here?

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            Ron Montgomeryposted 12 years agoin reply to this

            No, it is not fair to hold every Christian accountable for terrorist acts committed by people who happened to be Christian.
            
            Sauce for the goose...

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               h.a.borcichposted 12 years agoin reply to this

               All the points brought up by John have to do with behavior they can change. He didn't even remotely suggest they apologize for the past. If we hang on to the past, we aren't able to move forward.
               
               Are you for moving forward to a peace or willing the past keep all trapped?

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                  Ron Montgomeryposted 12 years agoin reply to this

                  My counter-points also involve changeable behavior.
                  
                  I am not the one living in a past full of hypocrisy and persecution.

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                     h.a.borcichposted 12 years agoin reply to this

                     Then who are you talking to about a past you brought up?
                     Remember I agreed with a post on hope for the future - you brought up apologizing

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                        Merlin Fraserposted 12 years agoin reply to this

                        I wouldn't hold your breath waiting for any change coming soon... The Muslins still haven't forgiven the Christians for the Crusades....

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                           h.a.borcichposted 12 years agoin reply to this

                           

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                           Ron Montgomeryposted 12 years agoin reply to this

                           A swath of fabric is angry at Christianity?  That IS cause for concern.

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                              aguasilverposted 12 years agoin reply to this

                              Nice one, you pedant you!

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                              Merlin Fraserposted 12 years agoin reply to this

                              Nice one !   at least I have an excuse that N & M are next to each other on the keyboard.  Had hoped you might have worked that out for yourself !
                              
                              Got anything Constructive to add to the debate ?

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               libby101aposted 12 years agoin reply to this

               In this way of thinking then all whites should be held accountable for slavery?
               
               This is hogwash!
               
               I cannot help what my forefathers did just as I can't help what my fellow christians did long ago! I can only show account for what I do!

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                  Cagsilposted 12 years agoin reply to this

                  Hey Libby, please try to separate your topics. Slavery is about race. Being Christian is not about race, it's about religion.
                  
                  Religion is NOT a race, it's a philosophy for living.

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                     libby101aposted 12 years agoin reply to this

                     I know this Cagsil... my point is we do not hold all people accountable for the sin of a group of people!!! It doesn't have to be religion to make a comparison!

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                  Ron Montgomeryposted 12 years agoin reply to this

                  You obviously did not understand my post.

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               Jim Hunterposted 12 years agoin reply to this

               Democrats are solely responsible for the Bombing of Japan.
               
               Democrats vaporized all of the innocents.
               
               Democrats are evil.
               
               Makes about as much sense as blaming Christians.
               
               I'll go with blaming Democrats.

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                  hanging outposted 12 years agoin reply to this

                  

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         aguasilverposted 12 years agoin reply to this

         Not aware I made any reference to this?
         
         EDIT: Sorry I did mention it, but the relevance is that potentially, if they obeyed their Quran, they are all charged with killing us if we will not submit to them.... maybe that's another point to be reconciled!
         
         
         
         As far as I can see believers adhere to these principals, I know of no Christian country where we ban other religions from competing for the faithfuls attention, or ban holy books from even entering the country, or kill Christians who change faiths, though the JW's do disassociate from those who leave.
         
         
         
         I have heard many women preachers and teachers, and willingly received what they have preached or taught, but if they were preaching error, I would leave, just as I would if they were men preaching or teaching error.
         
         As for leadership, why not, but most women in leadership recognise that they are to minister to the women and children, you see the reason they are leaders is because they are obedient to Christ and the bible teachings, by choice, not obligation.
         
         I have always been in a 'Free' church environ, so we generally leave women and children to women, not men to minister to, and men minister to other men, and in any case we always minister in twos, normally husband and wife together to avoid 'confusions' or nasty evil minded folk casting aspersions!
         
         
         
         All religious leaders should condemn ANY violence against ANYBODY, religious or not.
         
         
         
         From what I know, (and my father fought against the Japanese)the USA was facing very heavy casualties if they tried to invade Japan to defeat them in a land war, a war which the Japanese had started (although I believe the USA led them to start it).
         
         Japanese soldiers of the time believed in no surrender, so to stop the war and SAVE substantial human life the decision was taken to drop the bomb.
         
         Now that caused the Japanese to surrender the next day, and THEN the USA decide to drop Nagasaki, which was not required, but HEY hey wanted to see if it worked and also warn the Ruskies to watch out.
         
         I make no apology for what the USA did, mainly because I also was not born, but more because when I was born it was in England.
         
         Strictly speaking, you are right, the second bomb was an act of terrorism, but it was an act of terrorism carried out under the rules of war, not in peacetime, and it was an act that brought my father back alive, which I at least am pleased about!
         
         
         
         Most definitely, but as the old joke runs...
         
         "I will not attend any church, that's full of hypocrites"
         
         "Don't worry, one more will not matter"

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   Brenda Durhamposted 12 years ago

   Amen aguasilver.

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   I am DB Cooperposted 12 years ago

   These points target an underlying evil that still pervades American society. We all talk about the melting pot and civil rights and freedom of speech, yet there are still a huge number of people who feel it is not ok to be a Muslim in America. Here's a quote from Colin Powell I'll never forget:
   
   "I'm also troubled by, not what Senator McCain says, but what members of the party say. And it is permitted to be said such things as, "Well, you know that Mr. Obama is a Muslim." Well, the correct answer is, he is not a Muslim, he's a Christian. He's always been a Christian. But the really right answer is, what if he is? Is there something wrong with being a Muslim in this country? The answer's no, that's not America. Is there something wrong with some seven-year-old Muslim-American kid believing that he or she could be president? Yet, I have heard senior members of my own party drop the suggestion, "He's a Muslim and he might be associated terrorists." This is not the way we should be doing it in America."

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      aguasilverposted 12 years agoin reply to this

      Which of the following, if any, would apply in your opinion...
      
      He's a neo nazi fascist... he should not be allowed....
      He's a avowed communist... he should not be allowed....
      He's a womaniser... he should not be allowed....
      He's a member of the Illunimati... he should not be allowed....
      He's a KKK member... he should not be allowed....
      He's a transgender man/woman... she should not be allowed....
      
      The simple fact is that allowing a Muslim to run a republic has proven to be counter productive for democratic freedom of expression.
      
      Name me ONE Muslim run country where equal rights as you Americans perceive it is in operation?

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         chubatemjenposted 12 years agoin reply to this

         Follow the call of intuition not reasoning , be spiritual not religious...breath a space for others..let every men judge for himself.

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      paarsurreyposted 12 years agoin reply to this

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   paarsurreyposted 12 years ago

   "The radicals want us to hate the Muslims as it furthers their cause. By showing American hatred for Muslims worldwide, we make it easy for impressionable young men to abandon their true faith and join an organization sworn to hate all those who are said to strike out at Muslims."

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   kirstenblogposted 12 years ago

   I have been thinking about this a lot lately for some reason (possibly due to the heavy religious arguments going on here all the time lately). I think for me and my view point, I do not see the institutions of religion (be it christianity or islam or judaism) taking responsibility for distancing themselves from the extremists. When 9/11 hit or 7/7 I did not see the leaders of Islam publicly and loudly denouncing those acts, taking steps to excommunicate those extremists or in any major way make sure that it is totally clear that the acts of the extremists are not in any way approved of and are in fact completely reprehensible and unforgivable. The same can be said of christianity with the pedo priests and the covering up of this disgusting crime. Instead of hiding it, had christianity sought legal criminal charges and had been more then happy to excommunicate these criminals abusing their authority christianity could not be held responsible. At the end of the day these nutters in your religion (assuming you prescribe to a religion) reflect your religion, so don't let them get away with stuff you would not want associated with yourself personally!
   
   Sorry but my feelings are pretty strong on the subject but I think if you wish to promote, subscribe to and sing the praises of any institution (particularly religious institutions) then you are in part responsible for the actions of individuals within that institution. Take a school, they are an institution of learning, if they have a member of staff who does anything that could be a sign of them being a dangerous person they HAVE to fire the person (even if the sign is feeble at best and the individual is not a danger at all).  This is more then any religion does.
   
   If you want to preach to me and tell me what I should believe then you are totally responsible for the actions of the religion you are preaching, end of story! If you keep your spiritual beliefs to yourself and respect mine then there is not really a problem, I am unlikely to have any issue with your spirituality and the matters of your heart and mind as my spirituality is being respected. By assuming your religion is 'right' and that makes everyone else's religions wrong then you HAVE to be whiter then white, your religion has to be without fault. This is not possible so give up on trying to persuade me to convert or take responsibility for cleaning house in your religion first.

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      skipper112posted 12 years agoin reply to this

      kirstenblog,
      thank you for words of wisdom, I do not agree with everything you say but I respect your right to say it, at least you do not go with mindeless babble like some. You present in a clear and non threating manner well done. Your last parragraph is so true, if you are going to preach your religon , please make sure it is so clean it cannot be argued with.I  agre that if  this is not possible, then  clean up your religon first, get rid of the radicals, stand up and be counted, then preace people might listen then.

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