Evolution or not?

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pennyofheavenposted 12 years ago
Creation or not?

The Tao that can be spoken is not the eternal Tao
The name that can be named is not the eternal name
The nameless is the origin of Heaven and Earth
The named is the mother of myriad things
Thus, constantly without desire, one observes its essence
Constantly with desire, one observes its manifestations
These two emerge together but differ in name
The unity is said to be the mystery
Mystery of mysteries, the door to all wonders

Source: http://www.taoism.net/enter.htm

This seems to me to be pointing to evolution and creation. What do you think?
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  Mark Knowlesposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  No - it does not seem to be pointing at anything of the sort.
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  kessposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Most live their lives divided against their own selves.
  As long as that situation continues, they are unable to see Life even though they are alive.
  
  The unity that is needed without is the same unity that is needed within. But the unity within must come first before you can even approach that which is without.
  
  There is a division/two within that needs to be merged,
  
  Then you are able to see the division/two without.
  
  This is the beginning of Truth and the way of all things for so it is with both the least and greatest .
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  pennyofheavenposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Agree.
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  couturepopcafeposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  penny - you can't get away with that.
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  pennyofheavenposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Haha ok
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  paarsurreyposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  You shall have to elaborate; I don't see Evolution mentioned here.
  
  Another thing is who told this to the person who wrote it. Please name the source.
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  couturepopcafeposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  paarsurrey - with respect, good luck finding the source of Taoism. It's as old as...well it's old.
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  pennyofheavenposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Lao Tzu is the source of the original writing that was in ancient Chinese. Even Chinese of today debate about the translations. Just like the bible though it has many translations. The link I supplied provides you the site of its translator if you are interested.
  
  The nameless is the origin of Heaven and Earth.
  
  In the days that the Tao te Ching was written, heaven was not referring to heaven in the Christian understanding. It was referring to the universe.
  
  So science believes our universe and everything in it came from the big bang. If the nameless is the origin as in Taoists understanding then it is possible it is pointing to what science points to.
  That which can be named is the temporal aspect of our existence. Things that can be created and destroyed.
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china manposted 12 years ago
It has nothing to do with creation or evolution. It is about what we con't know, the division between the whole of everything and what wwe know about it and how to operate within the reality we create that is the partial mirror of the whole. In other words, it is about balance and how not to go rocking around when we don't nkow what we are doing. The way is the way of thinking/behaving, the division between the concrete and the abstract.
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  Mark Knowlesposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Westerners rarely understand the Tao. Not even sure why one would try and use it to analyze scientific facts in this fashion. It is purely an internal tool - yet they always attempt to apply it externally. I wonder why that is?
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  china manposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Absolutely - it is kin to the Buddhist stages to enlightenment - except the Tao does not talk about attaining anything except harmony in oneself, and a way of thinking that is far superior to our western logic strings that run pointlessley from origin and back to origin. Now if we could only get the religionists onto the 'way' !!
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  Mark Knowlesposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Well - they do the same with the bible, which I consider to be a purely internal tool - they externalize it and argue about "creation."
  
  Not really sure why they do this, because when they run into actual external events - such as evolution - they perceive a clash.
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  pennyofheavenposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Perhaps they are looking for unity rather than division?
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  arbposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Pennyofheaven, Sometimes a simple reponse reveals more truth than hours of complex analysis. Perhaps unity! What a novel concept.
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  pennyofheavenposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  That is your opinion.
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  ShortStoryposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Some people are inclined to see anything that is NOT of their own cultural traditions as "far superior." This is not the WAY.
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  pennyofheavenposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  You might be surprised how many Taoist use it to analyze science and vice versa... and in this fashion. A lot of them Easterners too.
  
  Oh and to add: Internal and External. You cannot have one without the other according to the passage.. As they merge.
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  Mark Knowlesposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  No I would not be surprised that you think this is the case. And it was "emerge" not "merge," according to the passage. Dear me.
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  pennyofheavenposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Cool! Yes you are quite right. Emerge but then to emerge they had to be merged yes?
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  Mark Knowlesposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  No. I was not previously merged with a building when I emerge from it - except by an extreme stretch of the meaning of the word "merge."
  
  I really suggest buying yourself a decent dictionary.
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  pennyofheavenposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Haha Why would I do that when I have you to correct me, wouldn't that just spoil the fun your having?
  
  Taken in the context of the whole passage. They were one. Is that not merged? If it isn't well then they emerged out of one.
  
  The unity is the mystery, the singularity. Where emerged that which can be named. Where emerged also that which cannot be named.
  
  First there was the singularity then structure then form. then the ten thousand things.
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  Mark Knowlesposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  I see - you were not actually interested in what other people think then?
  
  Taken in context.
  
  Un-merged? Maybe. Emerged - no. A dictionary would help.
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  pennyofheavenposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Yes I am. Ok maybe I do need a dictionary to understand your logic.
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  ShortStoryposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  People who say "X doesn't understand the Tao" generally prove that they don't themselves, given the real motivation behind saying so.
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  pennyofheavenposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  The nameless is the origin of heaven and earth. If the big bang created the heavens (universe) including earth is it not possible it is pointing to that? It is nameless and therefore eternal.
  
  God is eternal according to creationists and for some creationist God is also responsible for evolution.
  
  The named is what is temporal, things that we can describe, the nameless is that which we cannot describe and is eternal. Manifest and the unknown then.
  
  Yet it says these two merge together but differ in name. So how can there be division?
  
  So in everything manifest there is the eternal.
  
  Sounds like God is in all things to me?
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spookyfoxposted 12 years ago
You're using a very ancient philosophy and stretching it out to fit a modern 'battle' of ideas. In those words there's no mention of a being (a god), nor the origin of life.
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  pennyofheavenposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  No it does not mention God it mentions the process of creation which some might perceive as God if they believe God created all things.
  
  Most philosophies are ancient aren't they? So what does the origin of heaven and earth mean to you? Not the origin of life?
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  Randy Godwinposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Heaven=delusion
  
  Earth=reality
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  pennyofheavenposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Heaven in Taoism represents the universe not heaven in the Christian understanding. So is our Universe a delusion?
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  Randy Godwinposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Only to the religious who think we go there when we die.
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  pennyofheavenposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Yes agree, Taoist don't believe that, some creationists don't either.
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  ShortStoryposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Funny how adamantly opposed some people are to concepts they don't really understand.
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  ediggityposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  So true,
  
  Even when the last star
  has imploded
  and only blackness remains,
  the Tao will be Tao:
  emptiness in emptiness,
  silence in silence,
  nowhere,
  yet everywhere;
  beyond existence,
  yet the essence of life.
  
  The Tao is Tao
  
  By Jos Slabbert
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  pennyofheavenposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Very nice!
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  pennyofheavenposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Oh and the origin is a singularity. Just like the big bang.
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SpanStarposted 12 years ago
I would appear that creationism and evolution are processes which can not be proven by man.

Personally though looking at evolution it is the only cycle that doesn't cycle. No where in the history of mankind has anyone recorded that "hey come over here this ape is having another human baby." Humans still have human babies, apes still have ape babies and nothing but speculation as to this maybe how people came into existence has ever been presented.
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  Mark Knowlesposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  You are wrong. Evolution is well proven. I wonder you have the temerity to express an opinion at all. There is a perfectly rational, proven and understandable explanation why humans have human babies and apes, ape babies.
  
  Oh well. Jesus will do huh?
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  pennyofheavenposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Yes you are quite right, perhaps that is because what is eternal cannot be described in our finite view of the infinite. The intellect, when in the way, cannot see past itself. Where as the creative can. It cannot describe fully what it sees without the intellect. If the creative side of our brains and the intellect worked together perhaps a description can be formed. More often than not though the intellect is lord over thee.
  
  I too have wondered why the other apes stopped evolving. If evolution is well...evolving....then you would think the other ape species would by now have a sense of "self" as we do. When I think about it, any animal with a brain should evolve.
  
  They are the lucky ones in my view, they do not have a sense of self and do not need to get that out of the way to realize their connection to all things.
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  getitriteposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  
  No offense, but you should seek a real undeerstanding of evolution before posting statements as such. This is a simplistic distortion. It appears that you have a gross misunderstanding of the process.
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  pennyofheavenposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Apparently so. Would you like to share your understanding? Since evolution is still a theory, I am interested to know what I have grossly misunderstood.
  
  Your post is not offensive to me. You are entitled to your opinion even if it is not a reality.
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  getitriteposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  
  It's that you are implying that the goal of every primate species is to evolve into humans. That's like saying that whales should evolve into hippos. It's just that we all have different mutations at different times along the way.
  
  So, why have humans not evolved superior strength like some other primates? Does this make sense?
  
  http://www.lifeslittlemysteries.com/why … mans-0665/
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  pennyofheavenposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  No I wasn't implying that all species should grow into human beings. Whilst we may have come from a mutation, I doubt that it is an ape that is our common ancestor. Or the ape would have evolved much the same way we have. Perhaps the ape lost some mutations along the way and we didnt? I don't know.
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  getitriteposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  
  I don't think it is known, what common ancester we share with other apes. But all apes, including us, are evolving from the lines of that common ancester. We did not evolve from apes, we, essentially, ARE apes.
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  simeonvisserposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Please visit http://www.notjustatheory.com/ and then come back.
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  pennyofheavenposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  So it is a theory correct or not?
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  ediggityposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Correct.
  
  Just Like
  
  The Big Bang Theory
  
  Inflationary Theory
  
  Chaotic Inflation Theory
  
  Steady State Theory
  
  Theory of Cold Fusion
  
  String Theory
  
  Super String Theory
  
  Theory of Everything
  
  Theory of Pangaea
  
  Theory of Abiogenesis
  
  etc. etc......
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  psycheskinnerposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  You have grossly misunderstood that the apes, and all species are still evolving. And that evolution does not have self-awareness as its destination, indeed--it doesn't even have a destination.
  
  Evolution is really very simple. It observes that members of a species vary due to random mutation. It observes that individuals who better exploit or 'fit' the environment have more offspring. That is all. That's the whole thing.
  
  As theories go it is not exactly tenuous, just the comination of one certain fact and one a really quite obvious fact, and a rational conclusion that as a result, species change over time.
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  pennyofheavenposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  I do understand what you are saying. And I don't disagree. I think the point that is being missed here is that random mutation is just that. Ours would have had to be different if we have a sense of self. A consciousness that differs to ape species.
  
  The evolution theory explains the biological evolution however where it is not clear is how consciousness has evolved.
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  getitriteposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  
  I would suggest that you find and thoroughly understand the definition of a Scientific Theory.
  
  Because of the fact that you don't really comprehend the definition, you make the gross error of thinking that a nonsensical Myth has the same validity.
  
  Forget your definition of the word "theory" which you learned in high school. That is not relevant here.
  
  Scientific Theory is defined differently.
  
  TY
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  pennyofheavenposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  So are you saying then that they have the physical evidence (mutation) of that which we came into being from? Heres an extract from the link given....
  
  This suggest there is no physical evidence. Just documented explanation for our observation?
  
  It is close but not proven. What does that say for you then? It is law because they say it is. Still a theory in my opinion.
  
  Creationists claim the same thing. The bible is documented explanation for their observations. Not proven of course. It explains to them how creation was formed.
  
  Tell what the difference is because I am not getting it obviously.
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  Jeramiposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  That makes logical sense to me.
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  Beelzedadposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Since intelligence is just one of many branches of evolution, we can make the assumption that not all animals will reach the same state of evolution with the same results as any other animal.
  
  That would be like asking why all tails aren't the same, and why do some animals have them and others don't?
  
  We can't say that the ape has "stopped evolving" because evolution is an ongoing process covering vast periods of time.
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  pennyofheavenposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  No not all animals. However if ape is our common ancestor you would have thought they are not that far behind us in evolution. Perhaps we are the ones that are behind? I don't know.
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  Beelzedadposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  If what you said actually had anything to do with evolution, you might have a point.
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SpanStarposted 12 years ago
Well Mark,

If apes are our ancestor then why haven't we given them all the sames rights has their offsprings have? They bring us into existence and we still treat them like animals-SHAME ON US SUBHUMANS.
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  Mark Knowlesposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Sorry you do not understand. We human apes became self aware. We are still animals. We just have the power. Tricky - I know.
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SpanStarposted 12 years ago
Since we are all animals Again I say why haven't we treated apes or missing links just like we treat ourselves being as we are all from the same family??
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  Mark Knowlesposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  We do. We slaughter them with no less abandon than we slaughter ourselves.
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  skyfireposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Heard of Speciation ? Why you mix 'survival instincts' with 'speciation' and then draw conclusion of animal rights based on human understanding of empathy ?
  
  Just because humans and apes are from same ancestor does that mean we should treat each other same ? WOW. Even hitler, stalin and talibanis killed thousands just to show the difference between their tribe or thought process. Don't tell me you don't see any animal instinct in this.
  
  In that case show me if household cat, mountain lion and wild cats which are branched out from same ancestor respecting each other and not at all thinking about attacking when they're kept in single cage.
  
  It's wild life out there, whether you digest missing links or not.
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SpanStarposted 12 years ago
Very good that is partially correct only I believe the laws for our ape ancestor a much fewer then they are for it's offsprings.
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SpanStarposted 12 years ago
Skyfire,

If we claim one thing and do another then that makes us liars or prejudice. You're example of Hilter proves that point. Years ago we treated women as not existent, and Black Americans remained at the bottom of the human dare I say animal lower ladder.

If one is going to say this is what it is have and have nothing to back it up then this is recognized as we call it today Profiling.

Now if we claim the animal kingdom as our own then we need to do more then Nothing about it.
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psycheskinnerposted 12 years ago
We already do more than nothing about it, hence the animal creulty laws. And belief in evolution is associated with being more concerned with animal rights. So perhaps a first step to being more humane would be to be less hostile to evolutionary theory.
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skyfireposted 12 years ago
Years ago ? Many islamics tribes still treat women as non-existent and many families in india treat women as trash or as a way to keep family tree alive even in 2010. Racism still exists today. My sirname means 'black' in my native language and it contradicts with my skin color still in society people with my sirname are looked down upon. With what you can deny this ? Nothing.

You're not in 2210, SpanStar.

I don't get ya. What's your plan, man ?
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SpanStarposted 12 years ago
These things of hate and things exist because we choose them, we decide this is that and that is this. We make judgements which should be made and that why hate exist the way it is today and like it's always been. We tell ourselves lies and proclaim them as he truth. If we could rise above these lies we tell ourselves then we can live a better life but to often we want to believe these lies and that's why so many races are divided.
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skyfireposted 12 years ago
Very True.
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Stuart Barnesposted 12 years ago
It always amazes me when people try to make God small so He/It will fit into their frame of reference. They say things like, "Oh, God wouldn't do that." This just makes God small enough for a human to comprehend. How ridiculous.

We have senses to find out about our physical world. These are for a reason. If something is the way it is then no amount of us pretending that it is different will make any difference.

If evolution was the mechanism of creation, so be it.
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  Mark Knowlesposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  It always amazes me that people claim to comprehend a supreme being. Evolution just is - the fact that you need to attribute it to something that clearly does not exist is actually funny.
  
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  pennyofheavenposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Isn't that the same as attributing our existence to evolution. Whats the difference?
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  Beelzedadposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  I would tend to agree with you, if that were indeed the case.
  
  But, there must be something we as humans do in fact comprehend about gods, or we wouldn't embrace them and worship them as we do. It isn't so ridiculous after all.
  
  And, it would also require some comprehension that would motivate one to make the connection that evolution was the mechanism of creation, or else no such connection could take place and no such belief would be held.
  
  The answer would simply revert to evolution as we have observed with our physical senses if no other forms of comprehension of a creator can be achieved beyond that scope.
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3. 61
  pennyofheavenposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Yes agree
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couturepopcafeposted 12 years ago
The seer dwells in his own nature, restraining the thought streams natural to the mind, otherwise he is of the same form as the thought streams. Desirelessness towards the seen, signified by an indifference to attachment, is attained by the practice of mental suspension until only subtle impressions remain.

Pure consciousness is identified by ego as being only the mind. The very existence of the seen is for the sake of the seer but the desire to live is eternal and the thought clusters prompting a sense of identity are beginningless. The past and future exist in the object itself whether manifested or not, the mind is both perceived and perceiver. The universe of sensory perception is small to one who remains undistracted in even the highest intellection, the mind freed from obscuration, whose attributes cease mutative association with awareness freeing the indweller to shine as pure consciousness. This is the emergence of the nameless that has always been........at least that's the way I understand the tao.
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  pennyofheavenposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Sounds about right to me.
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ediggityposted 12 years ago
The story of Schroedinger's cat (an epic poem)

May 7, 1982
Dear Cecil:

Cecil, you're my final hope

Of finding out the true Straight Dope

For I have been reading of Schroedinger's cat

But none of my cats are at all like that.

This unusual animal (so it is said)

Is simultaneously live and dead!

What I don't understand is just why he

Can't be one or other, unquestionably.

My future now hangs in between eigenstates.

In one I'm enlightened, the other I ain't.

If you understand, Cecil, then show me the way

And rescue my psyche from quantum decay.

But if this queer thing has perplexed even you,

Then I will and won't see you in Schroedinger's zoo.

— Randy F., Chicago

Cecil replies:

Schroedinger, Erwin! Professor of physics!

Wrote daring equations! Confounded his critics!

(Not bad, eh? Don't worry. This part of the verse

Starts off pretty good, but it gets a lot worse.)

Win saw that the theory that Newton'd invented

By Einstein's discov'ries had been badly dented.

What now? wailed his colleagues. Said Erwin, "Don't panic,

No grease monkey I, but a quantum mechanic.

Consider electrons. Now, these teeny articles

Are sometimes like waves, and then sometimes like particles.

If that's not confusing, the nuclear dance

Of electrons and suchlike is governed by chance!

No sweat, though--my theory permits us to judge

Where some of 'em is and the rest of 'em was."

Not everyone bought this. It threatened to wreck

The comforting linkage of cause and effect.

E'en Einstein had doubts, and so Schroedinger tried

To tell him what quantum mechanics implied.

Said Win to Al, "Brother, suppose we've a cat,

And inside a tube we have put that cat at--

Along with a solitaire deck and some Fritos,

A bottle of Night Train, a couple mosquitoes

(Or something else rhyming) and, oh, if you got 'em,

One vial prussic acid, one decaying ottom

Or atom--whatever--but when it emits,

A trigger device blasts the vial into bits

Which snuffs our poor kitty. The odds of this crime

Are 50 to 50 per hour each time.

The cylinder's sealed. The hour's passed away. Is

Our pussy still purring--or pushing up daisies?

Now, you'd say the cat either lives or it don't

But quantum mechanics is stubborn and won't.

Statistically speaking, the cat (goes the joke),

Is half a cat breathing and half a cat croaked.

To some this may seem a ridiculous split,

But quantum mechanics must answer, "Tough shit.

We may not know much, but one thing's fo' sho':

There's things in the cosmos that we cannot know.

Shine light on electrons--you'll cause them to swerve.

The act of observing disturbs the observed--

Which ruins your test. But then if there's no testing

To see if a particle's moving or resting

Why try to conjecture? Pure useless endeavor!

We know probability--certainty, never.'

The effect of this notion? I very much fear

'Twill make doubtful all things that were formerly clear.

Till soon the cat doctors will say in reports,

"We've just flipped a coin and we've learned he's a corpse."'

So saith Herr Erwin. Quoth Albert, "You're nuts.

God doesn't play dice with the universe, putz.

I'll prove it!" he said, and the Lord knows he tried--

In vain--until fin'ly he more or less died.

Win spoke at the funeral: "Listen, dear friends,

Sweet Al was my buddy. I must make amends.

Though he doubted my theory, I'll say of this saint:

Ten-to-one he's in heaven--but five bucks says he ain't."

— Cecil Adams

http://www.straightdope.com/columns/rea … -epic-poem
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1. 60
  couturepopcafeposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Excellent on so many levels.
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Comscore	ComScore is a media measurement and analytics company providing marketing data and analytics to enterprises, media and advertising agencies, and publishers. Non-consent will result in ComScore only processing obfuscated personal data. (Privacy Policy)
Amazon Tracking Pixel	Some articles display amazon products as part of the Amazon Affiliate program, this pixel provides traffic statistics for those products (Privacy Policy)
Clicksco	This is a data management platform studying reader behavior (Privacy Policy)

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