Prove Proof exists

1. 58

   Jeramiposted 13 years ago

   I can prove God exist!
   I can prove God doesn't exist!
   
     Using the same rebuttal arguments that have become so common  ....   You can not prove that Life exists.
   
     Has anyone ever seen this thing we call LIFE?
     WE see the affects that life has upon an object when Life is believed to be within it. 
     We see the behavior and appearance change in an object when this thing we call Life (appears to) leave it.
   
      We see the what appears to be symptoms that life brings upon the object that seem have it.
   
      But we can NOT see life, just the symptoms of it!
   
      Some people say that if we can not see, feel, smell, taste, hear, something ; it does not exist.
            They say
      Let me hold it in my hand,  then I will believe in it.
    
      Then Life does not exist  ?   
     Science can prove (??)  The symptoms exist,  but
   science has never examined one of these little creatures called "A Life".

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      pennyofheavenposted 13 years agoin reply to this

      I think therefore I am...can I prove it?...no. Do I bother?...no.

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      Onusonusposted 13 years agoin reply to this

      That depends on what your definition of "is" is.

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         pennyofheavenposted 13 years agoin reply to this

         Good point

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         Jeramiposted 13 years agoin reply to this

         Well,  it looks like I'm going to be going off line or a few days or weeks and when I get back,  I hope that we have found out what IS, is.

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            pennyofheavenposted 13 years agoin reply to this

            I doubt that. Lol

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               Jeramiposted 13 years agoin reply to this

               Inquiring minds need to know.

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                  pennyofheavenposted 13 years agoin reply to this

                  Yes indeed we do.  You will be missed.

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                     Jeramiposted 13 years agoin reply to this

                     Thanks  ...  will be back soon?   
                       and good night.

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   Shadesbreathposted 13 years ago

   I cannot prove a duck either. I can see something that looks like a duck and walks like a duck, even quacks like a duck, but I cannot prove it is a duck just because it's floating on a pond gobbling up minnows in its bill. For, by your reasoning, what, really, is "a duck?"
   
   Don't confuse language and the ability to express ideas with the ideas, the things themselves. There comes a time when reductio ad absurdum, semantics, equivocation, various philosophical strategies like deconstruction, nihilism, existentialism, and all that rot become little more than word games.  At which point you have to ask yourself, what's the point you are really trying to get at?

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3. 58

   Jeramiposted 13 years ago

   My point exactly
   
   You cannot prove a duck either. I can see something that looks like a duck and walks like a duck, even quacks like a duck, but You cannot prove it is a duck
   
     But You can prove that God doesn't exist ???
   
   Shadesbreath wrote ..
   Don't confuse language and the ability to express ideas with the ideas, the things themselves. There comes a time when reductio ad absurdum, semantics, equivocation, various philosophical strategies like deconstruction, nihilism, existentialism, and all that rot become little more than parlor games.
   
   - - - - - -
   
     Again I have to agree with what you said.
   Why do we pretend to be so certain of things that can not be proven either to be or not to be!
   
     It is however socially acceptable for anyone to discuss their opinions with similar minded people, and with those with opposite opinions.  But to state with all certainty that We can Prove our opinion to someone else with a different opinion is insanity.
   
      At some point we have to ask ourselves, what's the point we are really trying to get at? 
      Are we really attempting to make a point?
     Or are we really just trying to make ourselves FEEL superior ?
   
     Are we really trying to find something in the sand ?  OR,  are we just kicking up sand ?

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      Shadesbreathposted 13 years agoin reply to this

      Yes, we are attempting to make one. We just don't actually have one. What we have is fear of the unknown. Making a point distracts us from that, so we keep trying. The old "who are we trying to convince?" thing.
      
      Yes, in some cases that's really what it is. Those people get annoying quickly.
      
      
      Yep. We kick up sand till we push up daisies. In the end what matters is how well we kicked up sand, the degree to which we tried not to kick it in other people's faces or onto the blankets of others, where they sit and want only to spend what time they have with family and friends.

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         Jeramiposted 13 years agoin reply to this

         Just from reading your post (as if unaware of who is saying this)  It would be hard to tell if it comes from a Theist, bad mouthing Atheist who are belittleing their beliefs  OR  From an Atheist who is simply attempting to enjoy a quiet day on the beach.
         
           Seems like we can't go through life without kicking up a little sand.
         
            But some people stand in one place with no other intention other than seeing how much sand they can kick up.
         
            Makes a person NOT want to go to the beach.

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            Pcunixposted 13 years agoin reply to this

            Then don't go to beaches that allow atheists.
            
            There are plenty of religious sites that won't allow atheists to intrude on your religious fantasies.
            
            Go to a beach there.

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               h.a.borcichposted 13 years agoin reply to this

               LOL -Segregation is your answer? Not suprised.

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            Shadesbreathposted 13 years agoin reply to this

            It might just as easily be coming from either side towards the other. It is the endless attack habit both sides have. Both sides are filled with people who totally "know" the answer and who are ready to kick sand despite the issue having never been resolved for thousands of years and by much greater minds than any poking about the Internet just now.
            
            Both sides fear death, and so they both seek to calm that fear. One puts on a facade of optimism (faith), convinces itself that death will usher in some variation of Utopian paradise (or at least not "nothing"), that gives them a sense of calm here on Earth. The other side puts on a facade of noble acceptance, an intellectual resignation that provides a sort of melancholy enlightenment from which they get their sense of calm here on Earth--even though they wouldn't mind if it turned out there was some cool continuation after death.
            
            Neither side can prove anything to anyone but themselves, which proves nothing but that people will do anything to preserve the flimsy shield they hold up between themselves and the fear of death (which neither side will admit in any great numbers).
            
            
            You are born on the beach, so you can't avoid being there. You can try not to kick up sand, though. And you can pay attention to yourself and see when you have kicked up sand and try to wipe it off with sincere apologies. As for those bullies who make the most noise, are the most pushy and aggressive, just pity them. Everyone knows the bluster of the bully is the clarion call of his own insecurity. Don't get in a sand kicking fight with those types, or you both just look small.

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               Pcunixposted 13 years agoin reply to this

               Not all of us fear death.  We may not desire it, but that isn't fear.

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                  brotheryochananposted 13 years agoin reply to this

                  How will you know until you have reached that point of death. After the doctor tells you you have 6 weeks due to cancer or whatever.. and the clock ticks away.. I am sorry but your boastful bragging about not fearing death i disannul. You have no proof of that and of course you are going to say that because its part of your sliding truth of atheism approach to life... say whatever you must to back yourself up..
                  
                  dust on the wind my friend, dust on the wind.

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                     DoubleScorpionposted 13 years agoin reply to this

                     If you are a true christian and have complete faith that you are going to Heaven, for what reason would you have to fear death? The only fear one would have concerning death would be the fear of the unknown...If as a christian you fear death...you might wish to re-evaluate your beliefs...Going to a place of utter bliss wouldn't be something I would consider a fearful place...
                     
                     And I can tell you from personal experience that I don't fear death...I don't want to die yet because I have family and friends that I want to spend many more years with. But since death is a nature part of the life cycle and I know what is going to happen to me when I do finally die...I have no fear of it...But that is just me...

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                        brotheryochananposted 13 years agoin reply to this

                        yah yah
                        im so happy for you
                        but i cannot believe it.
                        
                        death is something one can only relate to when one approaches it. Its kinda like saying i am not afraid of a car accident... until one feels the skidding of the tires and sees the tree up ahead.

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                           DoubleScorpionposted 13 years agoin reply to this

                           Say what you want, But I am in the Military. We get the unique experience of facing death on various occasions...so I can honestly say that I have been faced with the possiblity and I know how I felt. 'Nuff Said

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                        Jeramiposted 13 years agoin reply to this

                        I understand exactly where you are coming from.
                        I personaly would edit the first sentence of your comment though.  I think it sounds a bit too exclusive.
                        
                          This is not to say that I will not have many regrets.

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            2. 58

               Jeramiposted 13 years agoin reply to this

               The only rebuttle I cn muster is  ....
               When I hear words of wisdom all that I can do is stand in Awe.
               
                  I'm just standing here.

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      Travis_S_Musicposted 13 years agoin reply to this

      Always nice to read a post or see something some where that points something out to you. Makes sense to me.

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      1. 58

         Jeramiposted 13 years agoin reply to this

         Too many of us just do stuff without ever considering why we are doing it.
            And too many of us consider what we should do, without ever doing anything.

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   skyfireposted 13 years ago

   Is it ?
   
   in that case wonder why pedophiles in Vatican are not called insane for forcing their fantasies on other people ?

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      Jeramiposted 13 years agoin reply to this

      pedophiles should be taken out behind the barn and put out of their misery.   That simple, no ands ifs or buts

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         Pcunixposted 13 years agoin reply to this

         How typically Christian of you.
         
         Many pedophiles have serious mental issues brought on because they were abused themselves. So they should be shot?

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            Jeramiposted 13 years agoin reply to this

            How typicaly Atheist of you.
            
               I guess you would rather protect the pedophiles than the children.
             
            
            Edit     A rattlesnake can not help itself, it is what it is through no fult of its own,  but when it slithers into the playground it will be one dead snake.

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               Pcunixposted 13 years agoin reply to this

               I don't want to "protect" them. But I don't think shooting disturbed people who were victims themselves is a moral choice. 
               
               But Christians are well known for "Kill 'em all and let god sort them out", right?
               
               To me, the willingness to kill is the most disgusting aspect of most humans.  When it is justified with a belief that some god will correct any unfortunate errors, it sickens me.

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                  Jeramiposted 13 years agoin reply to this

                  Pcunix wrote.
                    To me, the willingness to kill is the most disgusting aspect of most humans.
                  
                  
                     More discusting than the damage done by pedophiles. ???
                  
                    You must have lived a very sheltered life. And not know of which you speak.

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         skyfireposted 13 years agoin reply to this

         Think about it from the view point of pedophiles, do you think they'll keep kids alive next time if you declare death penalty ? They'll even brainwash harder in the name of Christ to avoid getting into this situation or they'll simply get better political contacts to escape. Things are easy to say, hard to do.

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   Hauntyposted 13 years ago

   I will try, but first, pls, prove it's possible to do it.

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6. 70

   Cagsilposted 13 years ago

   Prove Proof exists?
   
   First you would have to establish a philosophical and methodology, consistent enough to form a universal truth among the human species.
   
   Then and only then, could "prove proof exists", come to light.

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      Jeramiposted 13 years agoin reply to this

      So;  If the process of proving that proof exists has not yet been put in play.  Then how can we logicaly ask anyone for PROOF for that which they say to be true?

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         Cagsilposted 13 years agoin reply to this

         Universal truth hasn't encompassed the entire human species. However, that doesn't mean that individuals within the human species haven't recognized a universal truth. Prove Proof exists? Those with a universal truth, already know what proof exists and the only reason for their words are not understood is through chosen ignorance, which is a refusal to learn.
         
         All available knowable knowledge says No god exists. It's people's idea about "truth" that has been skewed by misinformation and chosen ignorance on their own behalf.
         
         Specific questions, like "why" type questions all have answers, just like everyone has been told. Every question has an answer- a truthful answer. It depends on how well someone recognizes and understand the reality that truth can be universal instead of being based on one's perception/perspective. This leads back to "why?" do people refuse to understand "reality"? Chosen ignorance, led by ego, pride and selfish actions.
         
         Reality doesn't change based on thoughts, desires, will or wishes. It simply exists free from those things. Reality is explained by all knowable knowledge available. People's situation/circumstances and how those appear to a person, does not alter or change "reality" in any way, shape or form. Those things only have an effect on that person's individual state of mind and being. Which has nothing to do with "reality" itself.

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            Jeramiposted 13 years agoin reply to this

            That all sounded pretty ...  YET ?
            It didn't say much.
              You made it sound as if,  when we do not take into consideration those things such as perception, situation and, circumstances; truth can fit within a tea cup with room left over. And it does not come in a rainbow of colors.
            
               How can truth not be seen from different points of view.
            
               Looking at my house from a viewpoint looking from the west towart the east, it has no windows
            
              In reality, does my house have no windows?

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               Cagsilposted 13 years agoin reply to this

               It seems that you don't understand the value of "perception", you're going based on sight in your example. Perception doesn't work in that manner. You must incorporate all senses, knowledge learned and wisdom, to discern truth.
               
               Your example is nothing more than a play on words. In other words, misinformation.

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                  Jeramiposted 13 years agoin reply to this

                  I still say that You made it sound as if,  when we do not take into consideration those things such as perception, situation and, circumstances; truth can fit within a tea cup with room left over. And it does not come in a rainbow of colors.
                  
                     Relity or a rabbit and for an eagle are two entirely different realities.
                  
                     When you take perception, situation and, circumstances out of the eqution, reality and truth has no meaning, and would not exist.

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                     Cagsilposted 13 years agoin reply to this

                     Actually, that would be wrong. I've explained sufficiently enough for you to understand. You continue to word play, so no further is this road to be traveled.

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                        Jeramiposted 13 years agoin reply to this

                        I spoke clearly. Didn't play with any words.
                        
                           I've explained sufficiently enough for you to understand.
                        I do not understand why you don't.

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                           Cagsilposted 13 years agoin reply to this

                           Jerami, the exact definition for reality has been given to you, so you can understand it. Yet, you use the "word" - "reality" in a context it shouldn't be.
                           
                           Reality only changes when new knowledge has been discovered or created/invented(objects or cures). That is the only time reality expands.
                           
                           Reality has nothing to do with perspective or perceptions. Reality is ALL knowable knowledge.
                           
                           What you see is only part of perception. Perception can be skewed, when not as I described in my earlier posts.
                           
                           The word "reality" has been used in so many other ways, that it distorts almost any true understanding of what it really means.
                           
                           Those who are not willing to see Reality as described, is living in a delusional world, created within their own mind.
                           
                           You wanted me to provide prove that proof exists. A universal truth can be applied, as can a moral standard(led by conscience) be established, to the entire human species. The language we presently use is evolved enough to describe to a person, a simple way of life, one which is completely unchallenged by any other philosophy or ideology. Thus, it brings about Peace.
                           
                           I don't talk to hear myself talk. Once you've seen "World Peace", then anything is possible. The things not possible as of yet, become possible in the future.
                           
                           You live your life as honest as humanly possible. You stick to your life, and let others live their life. As long as you are honest with yourself about being honest with yourself, then you'll hold some level of integrity. Should you fail at anytime. Remember, to truly love oneself, you must also be accountable to self. Which means, you punish yourself for those times. Love yourself and your fellow citizens/humans. Have faith in them, let them know you have faith in them and have compassion for those who don't know how to do the things above.
                           
                           It isn't too difficult to understand.

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                              Jeramiposted 13 years agoin reply to this

                              What you evidently do not see are the contradictions within your own statement.   
                              
                                You sometimes say the most uninteligent things attempting to make others feel uninteligent.  Like this.....
                              
                                 
                              YOU  SAID ... Reality only changes when new knowledge has been discovered or created/invented(objects or cures). That is the only time reality expands.
                              
                                Please tell me that you do not believe that.
                                It is only our perseption of relity that changes or expands.
                                Reality does not change due to our perseption of it!
                              
                                  Then you say that reality is the same for everyone.  NOT!
                              
                                 You want me to believe that reality for a six year child is no different than it is for a 90 year old man? 
                                   Not going to happen.

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                                 Cagsilposted 13 years agoin reply to this

                                 Again, reality for a child and reality for a 90 year old are the same. Their circumstances or situation is different topic entirely. Don't mix them with reality.
                                 
                                 Reality exists and IS all knowable knowledge. Neither the child nor the 90 year old will most likely not know all knowable knowledge available in their life span. But, that doesn't alter what reality is.
                                 
                                 The Reality, all knowable knowledge is objective. It isn't subject to individual interpretation, which is subjective.
                                 
                                 I cannot explain it any simpler for you.

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                                    Jeramiposted 13 years agoin reply to this

                                    I'm sorry but I can not explain this any simpler to you that reality has nothing to do with knowledge.
                                     
                                      Reality is what it is; regardless of how stupid people are, or how much knowledge they think that they have aquired.
                                    
                                      Reality for the man on death row IS in fact very different than for the man sailing his yaught, regardless of their IQ.

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                                       Cagsilposted 13 years agoin reply to this

                                       You know Jerami, trying to be civil with you isn't easy. You seem to have a chip on your shoulder about something. What that is, who knows and a topic for another time.
                                       
                                       However, you fail to understand- everyone lives by all knowable knowledge available. You benefit from it. The "life" you are living is the same "Life" I am living. Reality exists, because we've been able to define, identify and recognize it for what it is.
                                       
                                       The "life" of the man on deathrow, as your attempt fails to apply, yet again, is no difference, with a man sailing on a boat. Only the situations or circumstances are different.

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   spookyfoxposted 13 years ago

   You're taking this the wrong way around. Proving reality with words? You're talking as if the definition and the concept of existing, existed before our perception of existence.
   
   Words don't define reality. Reality is. Period. Words are means to communicate to each other. You have a computer in front of you, you do not need a person to tell you that it exists because you are sensing it. Through your senses and through your memory and experiences you know to call that thing that you're sensing with your eyes, ears and skin, a computer. No words are needed to call that reality, words are post-experience, not pre-experience.
   
   With that in mind, it'd be pointless and useless to try to convince someone who hasn't percieved what you call 'god' with words alone; and even if someone has, but does not share the already mentioned memory or experience of calling that thing 'god', they'd not believe, as they'd attribute it to a state of mind caused by their own brains, as perhaps, a Buddhist would.

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   Britonposted 13 years ago

   This is totally wierd, proof that life exists!
   Life is just a name that has been given for easy definition.
   Its applied in general to a thing, be it human, plant, bacteria whatever, that is formed, grows, has a finite term of existence and then ceases to continue, to die in other words.
   life takes many forms as said above.
   Some of the statements put here about- I can see a duck, etc` are also quite wierd in as much as a duck is just a name that has been assigned to a certain species by humans for ease of identification, does anyone ever think that maybe the so called duck may have its own thoughts as to what it is called.
   Anyway back to the initial statement its hardly theology, is there proof that life exists, sorry its just a meaningless statement that I feel is garbage, and thats another human name for something, just a name.

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