About Hitler and Stalin...

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   wizbitzposted 13 years ago

   Is Hitler an atheist? Also is Stalin an atheist?
   Just want to know...thanks!

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      pisean282311posted 13 years agoin reply to this

      What we must fight for is to safeguard the existence and the reproduction of our race ... so that our people may mature for the fulfilment of the mission allotted it by the creator of the universe. ... Peoples that bastardize themselves, or let themselves be bastardized, sin against the will of eternal Providence. - Hitler
      
      stalin was atheist hitler was not...

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         wizbitzposted 13 years agoin reply to this

         Ok, if Hitler believes in a creator, why would he slaughter the Jews?

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            pisean282311posted 13 years agoin reply to this

            because he believed in his own version of creator , like some believe jews are chosen one or christians only get heaven and such stuffs...all are mere version of god...god if real treats every humans as same and doesnot differentiate between who follows what...isn't it?...

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               wizbitzposted 13 years agoin reply to this

               oh, ok...but it is really quite weird for me that Hitler and his Nazism was influenced by Friedrich Nietzsche.

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      paarsurreyposted 13 years agoin reply to this

      I think they were atheists; the atheists disown them because they were cruel and the people of the world don't like them; their disowning them relieves them from the due pressures.

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         skyfireposted 13 years agoin reply to this

         LOL. Atheists don't disown anyone for bad deeds. That's islamic line of thought or more like believers line of thought. If anyone behaved like hypocrite and is religious- disown them, isn't it paar ?

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         pisean282311posted 13 years agoin reply to this

         why would atheist disown them?...are atheist religious people who disown when their own people do 9/11 or witch hunting...no man...atheist don't disown any one...but going to hitler , he doesnot look to be atheist...stalin was atheist...

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      just_curiousposted 13 years agoin reply to this

      Hitler may, or may not, have been an atheist. It appears to be the general consensus that Stalin was. It doesn't really matter what their beliefs were, when it comes to religion. They killed on a massive scale. I think they would have done it no matter what they believed. It was all about power, not a disagreement on an afterlife. But, that's the same opinion I hold about most atrocities people tend to attribute to religion. It's just an excuse for violence.

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         paarsurreyposted 13 years agoin reply to this

         A true religionist won't kill a person unjustly; the atheists have no such code of life; they could go to any limits of killings; without restraints.
         
         A truthful follower of a religions won't even kill an animal unjustly, not to speak of killing a human:
         
         [5:95] O ye who believe! Allah will surely try you in a little matter: the game which your hands and your lances can reach, so that Allah may distinguish those who fear Him in secret. Whoso, therefore, will transgress after this shall have a grievous punishment.
         [5:96] O ye who believe! kill not game while you are in a state of pilgrimage. And whoso amongst you kills it intentionally, its compensation is a quadruped like unto that which he has killed, as determined by two just men from among you, the same to be brought as an offering to the Ka‘bah; or as an expiation he shall have to feed a number of poor persons, or fast an equivalent number of days, so that he may taste the penalty of his deed. As for the past, Allah forgives it; but whoso reverts to it, Allah will punish him for his offence. And Allah is Mighty, Lord of retribution.
         [5:97] The game of the sea and the eating thereof have been made lawful for you as a provision for you and the travellers; but forbidden to you is the game of the land as long as you are in a state of pilgrimage. And fear Allah to Whom you shall be gathered.
         
         http://www.alislam.org/quran/search2/sh … p;verse=95

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            skyfireposted 13 years agoin reply to this

            Unjustly ?   lola.
            
            Let me guess, a person who is not islamic should be punished by allahman as per quran is justifiable ?

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               paarsurreyposted 13 years agoin reply to this

               There is no teaching for killing a man in Quran rationally; for that one shall have to quote from Quran.

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                  skyfireposted 13 years agoin reply to this

                  rationally ? that's good joke paar.  How many times do i need to put those quranic verses in your head ?

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                     paarsurreyposted 13 years agoin reply to this

                     Please just quote one verse where there is a teaching to kill a person, without a rationality.
                     
                     Anyone can do it; please feel free for it; it is your free will.

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                        just_curiousposted 13 years agoin reply to this

                        I suppose it depends on what your definition of rationality is. I found the following at;
                        
                        http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/Quran … ostasy.htm
                        
                        The Qur'an:
                        Qur'an (4:89) - "They but wish that ye should reject Faith, as they do, and thus be on the same footing (as they): But take not friends from their ranks until they flee in the way of Allah (From what is forbidden). But if they turn renegades, seize them and slay them wherever ye find them"
                        
                        Qur'an (9:11-12) - "But if they repent and establish worship and pay the poor-due, then are they your brethren in religion. We detail Our revelations for a people who have knowledge. And if they break their pledges after their treaty (hath been made with you) and assail your religion, then fight the heads of disbelief - Lo! they have no binding oaths - in order that they may desist."  This verse is speaking of infidels (ie. "slay the infidels wherever you find them" 9:5) who obviously became Muslim to escape the sword, but the Hadith make no distinction of how a Muslim came to be a Muslim.  Apostasy is always punished by death.
                        
                        Other verses that seem to support the many Hadith demanding death for apostates are Qur'an verses 2:217, 9:73-74, 88:21, 5:54, and 9:66. 
                        
                        Advocates for killing apostates have pointed out that the supporting hadith are reliable and thus qualify as law according to verse 4:80 - "Whoso obeyeth the Messenger obeyeth Allah."
                        
                        
                        
                        From the Hadith:
                        
                        
                        
                        The reason why executing apostates has always been well-ensconced in Islamic law is that there is an indisputable record of Muhammad and his companions doing exactly that.
                        
                        
                        
                        Bukhari (52:260) - "...The Prophet said, 'If somebody (a Muslim) discards his religion, kill him.' "
                        
                        
                        
                        Bukhari (83:37) - "Allah's Apostle never killed anyone except in one of the following three situations: (1) A person who killed somebody unjustly, was killed (in Qisas,) (2) a married person who committed illegal sexual intercourse and (3) a man who fought against Allah and His Apostle and deserted Islam and became an apostate."
                        
                        
                        
                        Bukhari (84:57) - "[In the words of] Allah's Apostle, 'Whoever changed his Islamic religion, then kill him.'"
                        
                        
                        
                        Bukhari (89:271) - A man who embraces Islam, then reverts to Judaism is to be killed according to "the verdict of Allah and his apostle."
                        
                        
                        
                        Bukhari (84:58) - "There was a fettered man beside Abu Muisa. Mu'adh asked, 'Who is this (man)?'  Abu Muisa said, 'He was a Jew and became a Muslim and then reverted back to Judaism.'  Then Abu Muisa requested Mu'adh to sit down but Mu'adh said, 'I will not sit down till he has been killed. This is the judgment of Allah and His Apostle (for such cases) and repeated it thrice.'  Then Abu Musa ordered that the man be killed, and he was killed. Abu Musa added, 'Then we discussed the night prayers'"
                        
                        
                        
                        Bukhari (84:64-65) - "Allah's Apostle: 'During the last days there will appear some young foolish people who will say the best words but their faith will not go beyond their throats (i.e. they will have no faith) and will go out from (leave) their religion as an arrow goes out of the game. So, wherever you find them, kill them, for whoever kills them shall have reward on the Day of Resurrection.'"
                        
                        
                        
                        Abu Dawud (4346) - "Was not there a wise man among you who would stand up to him when he saw that I had withheld my hand from accepting his allegiance, and kill him?"  Muhammad is chastising his companions for allowing an apostate to "repent" under duress.  (The person in question was Muhammad's former scribe who left him after doubting the authenticity of divine "revelations" upon finding out that he could suggest grammatical changes.  He was brought back to Muhammad after having been captured in Medina).
                        
                        
                        
                        Reliance of the Traveller (Islamic Law) o8.1 - "When a person who has reached puberty and is sane voluntarily apostatizes from Islam, he deserves to be killed."  (o8.4 affirms that there is no penalty for killing an apostate).

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                           paarsurreyposted 13 years agoin reply to this

                           I quote the connected verses for a better understanding:
                           
                           [4:88] Allah is He beside Whom there is none worthy of worship. He will certainly continue to assemble you till the Day of Resurrection, about which there is no doubt. And who is more truthful in his word than Allah?
                           [4:89] What has happened to you that you are divided into two parties regarding the hypocrites? And Allah has overthrown them because of what they earned. Desire ye to guide him whom Allah has caused to perish? And for him whom Allah causes to perish thou shalt not find a way.
                           [4:90] They wish that you should disbelieve as they have disbelieved, so that you may become all alike. Take not, therefore, friends from among them, until they emigrate in the way of Allah. And if they turn away, then seize them and kill them wherever you find them; and take no friend nor helper from among them;
                           [4:91] Except those who are connected with a people between whom and you there is a pact, or those who come to you, while their hearts shrink from fighting you or fighting their own people. And if Allah had so pleased, He would have given them power over you, then they would have surely fought you. So, if they keep aloof from you and fight you not, and make you an offer of peace, then remember that Allah has allowed you no way of aggression against them.
                           [4:92] You will find others who desire to be secure from you and to be secure from their own people. Whenever they are made to revert to hostility, they fall headlong into it. Therefore, if they do not keep aloof from you nor offer you peace nor restrain their hands, then seize them and kill them, wherever you find them. Against these We have given you clear authority.
                           [4:93] It does not become a believer to kill a believer unless it be by mistake. And he who kills a believer by mistake shall free a believing slave, and pay blood money to be handed over to his heirs, unless they remit it as charity. But if the person slain be of a people hostile to you, and be a believer, then the offender shall free a believing slave; and if he be of a people between whom and you is a pact, then the offender shall pay blood money to be handed over to his heirs, and free a believing slave. But whoso finds not one, then he shall fast for two consecutive months — a mercy from Allah. And Allah is All-Knowing, Wise.
                           [4:94] And whoso kills a believer intentionally, his reward shall be Hell wherein he shall abide. And Allah will be wroth with him and will curse him and will prepare for him a great punishment.
                           http://www.alislam.org/quran/search2/sh … p;verse=85
                           
                           1.    They wish that you should disbelieve as they have disbelieved, so that you may become all alike.
                           2.    Take not, therefore, friends from among them, until they emigrate in the way of Allah.
                           3.    And if they turn away, then seize them and kill them wherever you find them; and take no friend nor helper from among them;
                           4.    So, if they keep aloof from you and fight you not, and make you an offer of peace, then remember that Allah has allowed you no way of aggression against them.
                           
                           The Meccans had attacked the Muslims aggressively at Medina, several hundred kilometers away (338.70 KM). Muslims had to migrate from Mecca as they were being persecuted by the Meccans and they did not allow a free will to Muslims or freedom of religion at Mecca.
                           
                           When Muslims migrated and took asylum at Medina; they won’t let them settle there and attacked them with full force and outnumbered.
                           
                           The Muslims were only defending their free will and freedom of religion.
                           
                           Was it not rational?

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                              just_curiousposted 13 years agoin reply to this

                              Since you have proven a marked ability to twist truth to suit your fancy, I see no reason to assume there is any honesty or truth in your post. It would be a waste of time to read it.

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                                 paarsurreyposted 13 years agoin reply to this

                                 I don't mind.
                                 
                                 Thank you

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                                    just_curiousposted 13 years agoin reply to this

                                    Paar, as much as you have irritated me with the lie you posted on the other thread I'm still not going to hold a grudge. Someone told me you were a muslim propagandist. it's true. You are. But it doesn't have to be a bad thing.  Just try to be nice. It isn't nice to lie.

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                                       paarsurreyposted 13 years agoin reply to this

                                       I said I don't mind; it is your perception, I won't refute it.
                                       Have a nice day.

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                                          just_curiousposted 13 years agoin reply to this

                                          If you unposted that ridiculous thread I'd say ok. Otherwise, every time you post to me, I'll suggest the topic of the fact that Mohamed is, indeed, a false prophet. Because he is. Don't you think?

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                        skyfireposted 13 years agoin reply to this

                        Here you go, this will satisfy your BS thinking.
                        
                        
                        Quran (2:191-193) - "And slay them wherever ye find them, and drive them out of the places whence they drove you out, for persecution [of Muslims] is worse than slaughter [of non-believers]...and fight them until persecution is no more, and religion is for Allah."
                        
                        Quran (2:244) - "Then fight in the cause of Allah, and know that Allah Heareth and knoweth all things."
                        
                        
                        Quran (2:216) - "Fighting is prescribed for you, and ye dislike it. But it is possible that ye dislike a thing which is good for you, and that ye love a thing which is bad for you. But Allah knoweth, and ye know not."
                        
                        
                        Quran (3:151) - "Soon shall We cast terror into the hearts of the Unbelievers, for that they joined companions with Allah, for which He had sent no authority".
                        
                        
                        Quran (4:74) - "Let those fight in the way of Allah who sell the life of this world for the other. Whoso fighteth in the way of Allah, be he slain or be he victorious, on him We shall bestow a vast reward."
                        
                        Don't tell me your god is jobless enough like your community folks to write book for the sake of differentiating between his own creations.

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   dingdondingdonposted 13 years ago

   Nobody is quite sure. Hitler was indeed influenced by grossly misunderstanding Nietzsche's writings, and of course Nietzsche was famously an atheist. Hitler himself however seems to have been a Christian, as he spoke a lot about Christ and how Christ was an ideal "Aryan figure". He also spoke quite angrily about atheism, and thought atheism was his and Germany's enemy. From a speech Hitler himself made in 1933:
   
   "For eight months we have been waging a heroic battle against the Communist threat to our Volk, the decomposition of our culture, the subversion of our art, and the poisoning of our public morality. We have put an end to denial of God and abuse of religion."

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      peterwsposted 13 years agoin reply to this

      Maybe he said that to maintain the influence which gave him power.  These guys then as now would say anything

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         dingdondingdonposted 13 years agoin reply to this

         Maybe, but maybe he really was a Christian. You might not like it, but plenty of evil men have been.

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            peterwsposted 13 years agoin reply to this

            I think not.  What they call themselves is their business, I wish they knew what a christian is or isn`t

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   wizbitzposted 13 years ago

   Ok, Hitler was just weird...he seems to be on denial of everything.

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   superwagsposted 13 years ago

   Hitler was a Roman Catholic; Stalin was famously an atheist. I doubt this had anything to do with the way either of them behaved - they both had mustaches too, but so did Ghandi (and he didn't embark on genocide) - go figure.
   
   Here's Hitler misinterpreting Neitzche according to Ricky Gervais in stand up.
   http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JUH1H-b-N5o

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      wizbitzposted 13 years agoin reply to this

      I really don't think he stayed as Catholic, maybe his religion is politics ^ ^ (I didn't knew Gandhi had a mustache)

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         paarsurreyposted 13 years agoin reply to this

         I think mustache does not make one a religionist or an atheist; does it?

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            skyfireposted 13 years agoin reply to this

            What about holy beard ?

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   skyfireposted 13 years ago

   
   Who translated this ? person who is obsessed with video games ?

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   prettydarkhorseposted 13 years ago

   Stalin was an atheist. For Hitler, maybe he was confused between his actions and what he believed in. We really don't know sometimes what comes out in your mouth is not what you are really thinking/doing, (Hitler's speeches and actions). Maybe that his speeches were done just to appease the German populace during those times. Who knows. Where do you draw the line.  The essence of being an atheist is vague.

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      Mark Knowlesposted 13 years agoin reply to this

      No it is not. Atheists simply do not believe in a god. The End. Not rocket science.

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         prettydarkhorseposted 13 years agoin reply to this

         I understand what you are saying, it is not a rocket science LOL. Peoples belief change and most often many people are confused about their belief. They flip flop. Not you of course!

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      dingdondingdonposted 13 years agoin reply to this

      Why does it upset you so much that Hitler was a Christian? It's a simple fact, get over it. Not every Christian is going to be a perfect wonderful person.

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         paarsurreyposted 13 years agoin reply to this

         The same way, one could say:
         
         
         Why does it upset one so much that Hitler was an Atheist? It's a simple fact, get over it. Not every Atheist is going to be a perfect wonderful person.

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            dingdondingdonposted 13 years agoin reply to this

            Well, it's not a simple fact. Hitler himself said he was a Christian. He spoke about being a Christian many times.
            
            You don't see me arguing that Stalin maybe secretly wasn't an atheist, do you?

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         prettydarkhorseposted 13 years agoin reply to this

         I am not upset that Hitler was a Christian, I don't even know if he was, all I am saying is that we may never know what was on his mind during those times. Maybe he was a fanatic extremist religious person, who knows or maybe he was just a confused person.

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   Greek Oneposted 13 years ago

   Stalin was at one point going to become a priest.   He ended up an atheist who suppressed the Church in Russia
   
   Hitler was born into a Christian family, but was not a Christian in deed or practice.  I guess you could call his beliefs a weird mix of mystic and paganism.. but really above all Hitler was a believer in Hitler himself... and said and did whatever was necessary to gain and keep his power. 
   
   This included making pro-christian comments when it suited his interests.. especially in propaganda directed towards those who were predominately Christian, anti-Semitic, and against atheistic Bolshevism.  At the same time, he suppressed the Catholic church where it suited him.. and there is even some suggestion he had thought about killing the Pope.

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      paarsurreyposted 13 years agoin reply to this

      He was a "Prince" and he did what the "Princes" do; a politician doing politics.
      
      He was not a founder of any religion; and did not have beliefs of any religion; so he was not a man of religion.

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         Greek Oneposted 13 years agoin reply to this

         i think we almost agree on something finally Paar!

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            paarsurreyposted 13 years agoin reply to this

            yes, almost

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      wizbitzposted 13 years agoin reply to this

      Good one,...thanks for that information

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   wizbitzposted 13 years ago

   Who started the war in this thread? lol
   
   Hey guys, don't be too hard on paarsurey. ^ ^

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   wizbitzposted 13 years ago

   Hitler just love power,...absolute power. And he would do anything to attain that,
   "Absolute power, corrupts absolutely"
   maybe that's what happened to him

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    know oneposted 13 years ago

    The book For Your Own Good by Alice Miller gives an excellent account of Hitler's early years and his subsequent rise to power. There was way more going on in his mind than being anti-Jew or power hungry. I highly recommend this book - it covers child abuse and how children's lives are forever marked by the experience.
    
    :-)

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    jomineposted 13 years ago

    Who cares whether they are atheist or not?
    We only have to see what they did and what they said and whether there is any merit in it. We accept if there is some merit or reject.
    Suppose Hitler has also discovered some great things don't we not accept them because he is the man who he is?
    Every human being is different and have different thoughts and action. Accept what we need and reject what we don't(Subjective, yes! but that is what everybody is doing).
    Are we going to reject water given, when we are dyeing of thirst, just because it is given by the worst man ever existed?

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    paarsurreyposted 13 years ago

    A true religionist won't kill a person unjustly; the atheists have no such code of life; they could go to any limits of killings; without restraints.
    
    A truthful follower of a religions won't even kill an animal unjustly, not to speak of killing a human.

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       jomineposted 13 years agoin reply to this

       
       
       I almost killed myself laughing!!!
       Yea the true atheist Bin Laden, David Koresh didn't kill a soul(not to mention the animals NOT killed after the fast by the true atheists).

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          paarsurreyposted 13 years agoin reply to this

          They are just politicians; killing humans in the name of religion while religion has no such teaching. They are responsible for their actions having a free will; Quran/Islam/Muhammad are not responsible for their wrong doings.

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             jomineposted 13 years agoin reply to this

             Which version did you read?
             Haven't you got enough quotes in other forums?
             I didn't know that Muhammed conquered Mecca by Gandhian methods!!

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                paarsurreyposted 13 years agoin reply to this

                1. I read Quran in Arabic; the pristine Word of the Creator-God Allah YHWH that was revealed on the heart of Muhammad; the most secure and protected Revealed book on the face of the Earth; the most rational and reasonable Word; full of wisdom.
                2. I don't get your point from your sentence "Haven't you got enough quotes in other forums?".
                3. I don't understand as to what you mean to convey to me when you wrote "I didn't know that Muhammed conquered Mecca by Gandhian methods". Ghandi did not live in Muhammad's time. Please elborate for me.
                
                Thanks

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                   jomineposted 13 years agoin reply to this

                   The verses in quran that denote violence was quoted for you information by many ,including myself, which I don't want to repeat.
                   
                   "the most rational and reasonable Word; full of wisdom.
                   Contain nothing rational, only magic. Where is the wisdom then?
                   
                   Muhammed didn't kill or didn't inspired to kill, you said.
                   But when he conquered Mecca when he got back from Medina, he was not using non-violent means, but of course it was sanctioned by your god!

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                      paarsurreyposted 13 years agoin reply to this

                      And the context of the verses refuted your stance; so naturally it does not suit you to reapeat it.
                      
                      It is good that you have realized your mistake.
                      
                      Quran is a very rational and reasonable Word of Revelation that provides the reasons and wisdom in the context; while Bible does not.
                      
                      I respect Christians but not the wrong concepts of Christianity; like Trinity, Jesus god or son of god. Jesus and Mary never subscribed to such wrong concepts. It is the doing of sinful scribes, clever Paul and the Church in unison.

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                         jomineposted 13 years agoin reply to this

                         "It is good that you have realized your mistake"
                         What mistake?
                         There was no mistake, you can give any interpretations you choose but the verses clearly, unambiguously are violent.
                         
                         "very rational and reasonable Word of Revelation"
                         Don't make me laugh again. Do you know what is meant by rational?
                         Christians are just another sect of misguided simpletons and nothing.
                         Only the concepts are different, but still concepts!

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                   jomineposted 13 years agoin reply to this

                   And for your information, even if both Hitler and Stalin are atheists, they didn't do wars to spread atheism(they never bothered about atheism), but to pursue their quest for power, but most religious wars are done for spreading it(of course that again is to grab power!)

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       dingdondingdonposted 13 years agoin reply to this

       If the only reason religious people aren't mass murdering everyone else is because they're afraid of Hell then that says a lot more about them than it does about any atheist.

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