Aboslute Truth

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   paarsurreyposted 14 years ago

   How to reach it?

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      DoubleScorpionposted 14 years agoin reply to this

      One cannot have Absolute Truth, unless you have complete knowledge of all things. And I am sorry, but at this point in time we just do not have the means to completely understand everything that is out there.

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      Beelzedadposted 14 years agoin reply to this

      Extend arm to closest copy of Quran, repeat five times daily.

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      Slarty O'Brianposted 14 years agoin reply to this

      Absolute truth is accessible through relative truth. I don't mean absolute knowledge, which as DoubleScorpion said: we don't have the means to understand everything yet and we never be able to.
      
      But there is absolute truth. For example, water boils at 212 f and 100 c. Is that absolutely true? Yes and no. It is true relative to a specific set of variables being true and staying true. If you always boil water at the same altitude and use the same purity of water, it will always boil at say 100 c. But if you go up a mountain or add impurity to the water you will get a different boiling point. But if you always use the same conditions your water always boils at the same temperature.
      
      So absolute truth is relative to specific conditions being true and remaining true.

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         Jesus was a hippyposted 14 years agoin reply to this

         Are you bartyfarslar on youtube?

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            Slarty O'Brianposted 14 years agoin reply to this

            Me? No. I'm someone else on youtube.

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               Jesus was a hippyposted 14 years agoin reply to this

               Do you post on the 10 questions page?

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                  Slarty O'Brianposted 14 years agoin reply to this

                  lol... no.

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         tsmogposted 14 years agoin reply to this

         I agree and very well stated. Can we then say absolute truth is water boils?

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            Slarty O'Brianposted 14 years agoin reply to this

            Well it does under most conditions so that would be true most of the time. But it does not boil at 20 degrees C, for instance. So the absolute truth is that if you always boil your water at the same altitude, in the same way, using the same purity of water, it will always boil at the same temperature, what ever that may be depending on the values of the variables.
            .

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               tsmogposted 14 years agoin reply to this

               so, truth is "water boils"

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                  Slarty O'Brianposted 14 years agoin reply to this

                  if you add the right amount of heat.

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      CaravanHolidaysposted 14 years agoin reply to this

      No such thing mate, western law is based on the Cartesian 'ergo et sum' other than that ....nothing doing!!

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         paarsurreyposted 14 years agoin reply to this

         Please elaborate.
         
         Do you mean Truth is not achievable?
         
         I don't agree with you.

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         paarsurreyposted 14 years agoin reply to this

         Absolute Truth is mentioned absolutely in the Word of the Creator-God; and it is accessable:
         
         [2:253] These are the Signs of Allah; We recite them unto thee with truth. Surely, thou art one of the Messengers.
         http://www.alislam.org/quran/search2/sh … ;verse=252

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            paarsurreyposted 14 years agoin reply to this

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   knolyourselfposted 14 years ago

   Why would you want it?

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   just_curiousposted 14 years ago

   You can't, in my opinion. You can search for pieces of the puzzle, but one constant is that everything changes. I don't think truth is any different. There are no absolutes.

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      paarsurreyposted 14 years agoin reply to this

      Can you? If I cannot.

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         just_curiousposted 14 years agoin reply to this

         If I think truth is not absolute, why would it follow that I believed I could find it and you couldn't. That wouldn't make any sense.

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            paarsurreyposted 14 years agoin reply to this

            I appreciate your response.
            
            Thanks

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   Daniel Carterposted 14 years ago

   It's like perfection. It's an illusion until you accept that the universe is perfect as it is. How could it be any other way than it is when it is not? Therefore, the way it is is the only way it can be.
   
   Truth ultimately comes from within. Facts come from physical occurrences along with legal and scientific documentation.
   
   Truth is about harmony and balance. If that's the case, absolute truth is already in us, or at least potentially in us.

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      paarsurreyposted 14 years agoin reply to this

      Truth cannot be an illusion. Is it not a fact or Truth that we exist? Is it an illusion?

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         Daniel Carterposted 14 years agoin reply to this

         You misunderstand. Truth is not an illusion. Our perception of things is usually the illusion.

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            paarsurreyposted 14 years agoin reply to this

            I agree with you that it is the perception of man which is illusion or wrong; Truth does exist.
            
            How to reach the Truth?
            
            Did the Big Bang create the Truth or the Truth created the Big Bang?

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               Slarty O'Brianposted 14 years agoin reply to this

               Truth is the underlying reality. Reality manifests as patterns. You are correct that people's interpretations can be wrong or incomplete. So studying the patterns of reality rather than the interpretations of it offers up more truth.
               
               One such pattern being that which I said in my first post: Absolute truth is relative to a specific set of conditions or variables being true and staying true.

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                  Cagsilposted 14 years agoin reply to this

                  Hey Slarty,
                  
                  Then please explain how relative this statement is-
                  
                  Truth is in a Lie.

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                     Slarty O'Brianposted 14 years agoin reply to this

                     Are you saying there is truth in a lie? Or are you saying it is true that something is a  lie? You have to specify your variables. I would say that the truth is relative to  exactly what you mean. lol...

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                        Cagsilposted 14 years agoin reply to this

                        So, I take it you don't understand. It's okay, many people continue to believe that truth is relative to their own perspective/perception and it's actually not.
                        
                        Truth in a lie, simply proves that Truth is an Absolute. It's in everything in existence. It would only become relative when ignorance is introduced to muddy the water.
                        
                        So, with that said- Truth in a lie? What truth? The truth that lays inside a lie is that the "lie" itself is actually a lie and not actual truth.
                        
                        Truth is always revealed in the end.

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                           Slarty O'Brianposted 14 years agoin reply to this

                           You take it wrong. I did understand. I think you misread what I said. I didn't say truth was relative to perception. I clearly said it is relative to a set of variables or conditions being true and remaining true. Your perception of them is irrelevant as is your interpretation of them. That the lie is, in truth, a lie is a statement about the lie being a lie - in fact. Not that the lie itself contains truth. That may or may not be the case all the time. The truth is that sometimes a lie holds some truth and sometimes it does not.

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   knolyourselfposted 14 years ago

   " It's an illusion until you accept that the universe is perfect as it is. How could it be any other way than it is when it is not? Therefore, the way it is is the only way it can be.". The principle behind the wisdom of the East and to get beyond a lot of the moral acid.

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      paarsurreyposted 14 years agoin reply to this

      Is it true to say that the Univese is not perfect; as it is not intelligent?

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         Slarty O'Brianposted 14 years agoin reply to this

         No. It has no reason to be.

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   knolyourselfposted 14 years ago

   "Is it true to say that the Univese is not perfect; as it is not intelligent?"
   As or if it is not intelligent? Not sure that intelligence would have anything to do with perfection. A rock could be said to be perfect as a rock. It doesn't need to be intelligent.

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      paarsurreyposted 14 years agoin reply to this

      Is there anyone or anything perfect, in your opinion?
      
      I think when one said that the Universe is not perfect; and a rock is not perfect, it meant a rock cannot be perfect. A perfect thing or person cannot exist in an imperfect thing. Am I right?

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         Disappearingheadposted 14 years agoin reply to this

         What does your Quran have to say about truth paar?

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            paarsurreyposted 14 years agoin reply to this

            Do you believe in Quran?
            If you don't; why you don't believe in it?
            
            [2:146] And even if thou shouldst bring every Sign to those who have been given the Book, they would never follow thy Qiblah; nor wouldst thou follow their Qiblah; nor would some of them follow the Qiblah of others. And if thou shouldst follow their desires after the knowledge that has come to thee, then thou shalt surely be of the transgressors.
            [2:147] Those to whom We have given the Book recognize it even as they recognize their sons, but surely some of them conceal the truth knowingly.
            
            
            [2:148] It is the truth from thy Lord; be not therefore of those who doubt.
            
            
            [2:149] And every one has a goal which dominates him; vie, then, with one another in good works. Wherever you be, Allah will bring you all together. Surely, Allah has the power to do all that He wills.
            
            http://www.alislam.org/quran/search2/sh … ;verse=147

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               Disappearingheadposted 14 years agoin reply to this

               No I have never read the Quran but neither am I inclined to based on the fact that Islam denies the deity of Chirst.
               
               The reason I'm asking you what your Quran says is that you believe that it is the last word on the truth. Yet here you are asking about absolute truth. Are you doubting the Quran?

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                  paarsurreyposted 14 years agoin reply to this

                  It is last Word in the sense that it is in the pristine and secure form it was revealed on Man called Muhammad; and it gives no commandment or teaching witout mentioning its wisdom and reason, it requires no external reasons; it satisfies all the ethical, moral and spiritual needs of human beings; it corrects all the previous Word of Revelations while confirming their truthful origin; and confirming the truthfulness of the person on whom the same were Revealed.
                  
                  If it lacks it; then it is not the last word; it is last in status on the vertical axis; not necessarily on the time axis.

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         Slarty O'Brianposted 14 years agoin reply to this

         Absolute perfection is impossible. Only relative perfection is possible. Like truth, perfection is relative to something. Perfection is a subjective idea.
         Your idea of perfection and mine are not the same.
         
         I could only see an absolute perfection in the idea that all thing would be perfect and all needs are met, and all things resolved.
         
         Because this is not the case it is impossible for a perfect being to exist. The imperfect beings will bring it conflict and destroy its perfection.
         
         Another thing you might consider: If god were perfect we would not exist. He or it would have no needs or desires. Perfection is the end of creativity. A god who is perfect and has no needs has no need to create.
         
         Creativity is the result of conflict and it's resolution. No conflict, no need for creativity. No need for creativity, no creativity.

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            Cagsilposted 14 years agoin reply to this

            Where did you get the idea of absolute perfection is impossible. Perfection is always possible, because Perfection requires one piece of knowledge. That knowledge is to know the form.
            
            A prime example is to draw a square. It is possible to draw a perfect square. Just like it is possible to draw a perfect circle.
            
            What form that the perfection comes in is all that needs to be known.
            
            Human beings cannot achieve perfection, except for only brief moments in time. It cannot be maintained, because humans are not perfect themselves.

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               Slarty O'Brianposted 14 years agoin reply to this

               Perfection is subjective. I am saying it is not objective. I am saying your idea of perfection and mine may not be the same. Probably aren't.  You have started you criteria of perfection from form. But I may want to start from functionality. You may have a perfect square but that is one aspect of the square, it's form. It may have breaks in the lines you can't see. If it does is it still perfect? Is the ink you used perfect? Is the paper? By what criteria? The square is only a square because of all it's parts. One aspect may be considered perfect while others are not. So depending on your criteria it may or may not be perfect to you. Objectively the square is not perfect and it is not imperfect, it just is.
               
               My car may be perfect for my needs, but may not be a perfect car in all of it's aspects. Yet to me it is perfect. Perfection is subjective, not objective. 
               
               The universe is neither perfect nor imperfect objectively. It just is what it is.
               But to you it may be perfect or not depending on your criteria.

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                  Cagsilposted 14 years agoin reply to this

                  Perfection isn't subjective, when truth allows for it to be seen. Truth isn't subjective, it's objective.
                  It wouldn't matter if YOUR criteria was based on functionality, because you are required to know the forms of everything involved with the functionality, so as to better understand the "perfection" when you do recognize it.
                  
                  The form is all that is needed to be understood to create the perfection of that form.
                  This isn't relevant, as to what perfection is.
                  Sounds like existentialism. Sorry, don't buy it.
                  Untrue. Situational aspects induce your subjective reasoning, but doesn't factor on Perfection. Yes, your car could seem perfect to you, however, I'm sure, even you would rather want something else to fit all aspects, not just situational aspects. Therefore, it's not actually perfect.
                  I have no thoughts on the Universe being perfect or imperfect, because it's irrelevant to living life or even understanding life. But, thank you anyways.

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                     Slarty O'Brianposted 14 years agoin reply to this

                     Perfection is subjective as you clearly are demonstrating. I did not say truth was subjective, did I? I agree with you that it is objective. We aren't talking about that. We are talking about perfection which is relevant to what you decide it is perfect for. Can your perfect square be destroyed? Yes? Then it isn't perfect in that aspect. In your argument form is all that counts. But that's subjective. Not the objective truth of the matter.

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                        Cagsilposted 14 years agoin reply to this

                        How did I demonstrate that "perfection" is subjective, when perfection itself is based on truth of forms. To know any truth requires objectivity. So, to know the truth of forms, requires objectivity. Therefore "perfection" is objective. What is subjective is when the truth isn't known.
                        No you didn't, but you don't appear to be making the connection, I made above.
                        Actually, the "topic" of the thread is about Absolute Truth. It has taken a side road, down "perfection". The truth of perfection is that humankind can only obtain it for a brief period of time and nothing more. Any other statements with regards to it, is just meaningless banter and misinformation, about Truth.
                        To know and understand "perfection", all that is needed is to know the form. That "form" creates a "beauty" that can be recognized by those who understand the "form". Can it be destroyed? Is foolish to even state, because anything that is created can be destroyed.

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                           Slarty O'Brianposted 14 years agoin reply to this

                           But I do not accept that perfection is based on truth of forms. That's your criteria, not mine. Not many other people's either.
                           
                           I am not making the connection because it is not true. Perfection is a meaningless word that is only relative to the subjective mind. Objectively a form is a form. It is not objectively perfect or imperfect. Perfection has nothing to do with it. It only is perfect if you say it is and then only to you.
                           
                           Objective perfection MIGHT be if a thing has no needs, no desires, can not be destroyed or influenced from outside, is changeless, and unchangeable, etc.  If you say it is foolish of me to say because anything created can be destroyed, then you have proven my point. Your square can be destroyed so is not perfect. If something perfect can be corrupted it was never perfect, because perfection means it is not corruptible. Perfection has to be perfect in every way to be objectively perfect.
                           
                           That is the lengths you have to go to to even get close to an idea of an objective perfection. You are talking about aspects of things being perfect. And that is a subjective call. If you and I do not instantly agree something is perfect, then it is because it is a subjective idea not an objective one.
                           
                           The only state of perfection would be if all things agreed it was perfection in every way.
                           
                           Again. The word perfection has no real objective meaning and therefore is useless except in subjective terms. That's the absolute truth. lol....

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   knolyourselfposted 14 years ago

   "Is there anyone or anything perfect, in your opinion.". The universe is perfect. It has to be or it could not sustain life as exhibited here.

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   knolyourselfposted 14 years ago

   "What does your Quran have to say about truth paar?" What doe Quran mean and what does paar mean.

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   earnestshubposted 14 years ago

   Here is a definition of truth. Anyone who really wants to understand what truth is can find it easily enough.
   
   http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZcL8oFgSESE

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      just_curiousposted 14 years agoin reply to this

      Good video, and absolutely true. I agree with all of his points. I took paar's question as talking about truths that transcend our existence and perception of reality.  I could be wrong.

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    knolyourselfposted 14 years ago

    "Did the Big Bang create the Truth or the Truth created the Big Bang?"
    Who created the big-bang and why?

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    Cagsilposted 14 years ago

    Absolute Truth- Does exist.
    
    Truth Is Truth!
    
    Truth is in everything.
    
    Truth can be recognized when seen.
    Truth can and will always be revealed.

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       Disappearingheadposted 14 years agoin reply to this

       I'm agreeing with Cags here. Still, there's a first time for everything I suppose.

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          Cagsilposted 14 years agoin reply to this

          There are always firsts.

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       tsmogposted 14 years agoin reply to this

       Tossing up in the air. Absolute truth is a circle is not a square at a specific moment in time, thus change is introduced, along with a hammer and now the square is a circle or some such geometric figure. So you the original question asks "Absolute Truth, How to reach it?" My view, now, is it can't be reached only observed to have been.

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          Cagsilposted 14 years agoin reply to this

          All sorts of ideology, philosophy and other things are always tossed up in the air, when voiced that is.
          Each form stands by itself.

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             tsmogposted 14 years agoin reply to this

             true <smile>

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       paarsurreyposted 14 years agoin reply to this

       And hence Word revealed by the Creator-God is absolutely truthful.

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          Cagsilposted 14 years agoin reply to this

          Says you. Sorry, no absolute truth in religion. None!
          
          Jesus' undistorted teachings, would be best overall.

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    knolyourselfposted 14 years ago

    Absolute truth may be absolute replication. A tree makes a tree makes a tree.

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    knolyourselfposted 14 years ago

    "truth is relative to specific conditions being true and remaining true."
    Great point. So then would absolute truth be when 'specific conditions being true and remaining true' absolutely.

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       Slarty O'Brianposted 14 years agoin reply to this

       Well it is only absolutely true every time those specific conditions are met. But if they are, then yes. Absolutely. lol....

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    aka-djposted 14 years ago

    Absolute Truth = Jesus Christ

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       paarsurreyposted 14 years agoin reply to this

       Jesus is in the image of truth, yes; like Krishna, Moses, Zoroaster and Muhammad but not the absolute Truth.

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          aka-djposted 14 years agoin reply to this

          That's just your opinion!
          I don't agree!

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             paarsurreyposted 14 years agoin reply to this

             No compulsion; have a nice day.

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          paarsurreyposted 14 years agoin reply to this

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          paarsurreyposted 14 years agoin reply to this

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    Jeramiposted 14 years ago

    Cagsil wrote:
    Absolute Truth- Does exist.
    
    
    = = = =    agreed
    
    - -    The only problem is that We don't know where it is ... There are 1,000,000 counterfit Truths so it is hard to see the origional Truth when it is burried under so much  STuf?

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       paarsurreyposted 14 years agoin reply to this

       Nevertheless; the Truth is there; one cannot undermine it.

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    Jeramiposted 14 years ago

    Slarty O'Brian wrote ...
      I am not making the connection because it is not true. Perfection is a meaningless word that is only relative to the subjective mind. Objectively a form is a form. It is not objectively perfect or imperfect. Perfection has nothing to do with it. It only is perfect if you say it is and then only to you.
    
    = = = = =
    
       Something can be considered perfect (In all Truth) ONLY when a specific purpose for that "THING"  has been assertained???? 
    
      Maybe ?

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    Joy56posted 14 years ago

    I hear the truth will set us free..... Has someone mentioned that already????

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       paarsurreyposted 14 years agoin reply to this

       Yes, Truth sets one free; nevermind if you repeat it again.

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    earnestshubposted 14 years ago

    You almost got the spelling right for the heading of this thread.
    It's spelling is as below.
    
    O b s o l e t e.

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       just_curiousposted 14 years agoin reply to this

         Good one.

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    paarsurreyposted 14 years ago

    Jesus is in the image of truth, yes; like Krishna, Moses, Zoroaster and Muhammad but not the absolute Truth. Absolute Truth is the Creator-God Allah YHWH and is mentioned in the Word revealed by Him.

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       earnestshubposted 14 years agoin reply to this

       What is the theory here?
       Do you reckon if you repeat this often enough it becomes truth?

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    Jesus-Savesposted 14 years ago

    Jesus is Truth in its fullness. To have absolute Truth, you have to have Jesus. This are deep divine things, you can only accept by faith, for the finite mind cannot comprehend Infinite things.

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    Jefacityposted 14 years ago

    well by definition absolute truth must include everything in the universe for if it did not it would not be absolute truth. So to find absolute truth become all of existence.

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       paarsurreyposted 14 years agoin reply to this

       I don't get you. Please elaborate

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