The arguments in the forums are all over the place, and rightly so. Christians, Muslims, Atheists all posing their arguments.
All we spout about is what we were taught or the conclusions we came to on our own.
I suggest that none of us know anything about God. We don't know what, why, when, how, etc.
I'm sure the believers will now come back with all the book wiritngs. The Atheists will chime in with their arguments against.
I do beleive in something as this is the only logic I can come to. What that is still is being formulated after 60 years.
How can anyone know about something that is purported to exist but has never been seen or shown to exist?
It's like saying we really don't know anything about unicorns or leprechauns.
Sure, they run free in my backyard even though I can't see them, so I just don't know anything about them.
Well maybe God is hanging out there on a lawn chair with beer and stogie in hand.
But, how would you know that if you can't see or hear him? It would appear that a god sitting in a chair with a beer and stogie is exactly the same as an empty chair and exactly the same as unicorns and leprechauns running free in my backyard.
I don't, I'm just saying he could be there. or he could be the guy next door. I just don't know.
So, how could you even suggest a god is sitting there in that chair if you just don't know?
Wouldn't that same reasoning apply to unicorns and leprechauns or is there some difference here you'd like to share?
I'm suggesting "could" and you see "is".
You appear to have a problem with suggesting "could" without proof of existence.
Do I need to prove the "I don't know"
You're missing the point. What could possibly spark the idea that a god "could" be sitting in that chair in the first place? Where did you get that notion?
No, I think the point is right on. You are asking me to prove a "possibility". If I say you might be sitting in a bar in Hong Kong right now writing comments - I'm saying I don't know but you might be.
I say God might be sitting in that chair. You are telling me Why would I even come up with that possibility. Why does it matter why I say something is possible when I follow it with I don't know if it is true?
You're still missing the point entirely, Peter.
What would lead you to conjure up the concept of a god sitting in a chair? Where did you originally get that notion?
For example, it would be the same if I asked someone where they got the notion of a unicorn?
Go back to the intial post that started this thread. I'm saying I was taught. If I had not been, I might have come up with some concept that would explain why mattter exists.
I guess I'm still missing your point since anyone can come up with an idea, doesn't matter why they come up with it.
Okay, fair enough. You were taught to believe in a god and you posit that one is sitting in a chair. If you were indeed "taught" about the concept of a god, did you question it at all or just accept it to be true?
Of course I quesioned, which is why I made the initial statement tha noone can understand god or even if there is one. So, I say I Don't Know a lot, especially in these kind of conversations.
Again, fair enough.
Let's recap. You were taught a god exists which is where the notion of gods were initially placed in your mind. You've never seen that god and you state that no one can understand that god and are left with no recourse other than, "I don't know". Of course, that is one god amongst many other gods taught to people.
At this point, what would even make you believe that god actually exists? Where do logically take the next step here?
Had to take some time out to have nose surgery today. But I'm back with a load of gauze stuck up my nose - cute.
I began my quest and questioning in college. I essentially went back to simple "where did matter come from". Philosophers simple assumed that it always existed. I thouht about this for a long time. My conclusion was I just could not buy this. No start, no purpose - I just think it had to start somewhere.
So then I tried to formulate my conception of a higher power that started it. This led me to many years of questioning how, if matter didn't always exist, how could a God have always existed? I found a glimpse in Physics and Einstein. The principle that time slows as one approaches the speed of light. This at least opened the door to the possibility that a God could always exist since time could almost completely stop.
I also think there are many physics principles that we have yet to discover.
That is about as for as I could go. Call it childish or dreaming or down right wrong, this at least made me comfortable that there is a God. I have built on this concept since then, but only in very general terms.
Hope you can still breathe.
I can understand that, asking philosophers about matter is waste of time. It is a question for science.
I'm not sure I follow you, Peter. It would appear that you already had the notion of a god long before this. You are also working the scientific method in reverse by coming to a conclusion and then looking for evidence and proof to form fit the conclusion. That is not how we find answers to questions.
While I understand those principles, I can't make the same connections as you have.
Not really, there aren't that many left to discover.
Thanks Peter, but I still can't help but think your concepts weren't already entrenched within you before you started out on that quest.
Peter, don't let yourself get bullied here. Beelzedad has no more proof of gods non-existance than you do of his existence. The lady doth protest too much, methinks.
Bullied? Why are you lying so much about this?
Yes, just like I have no more proof of a unicorns existence. So what?
Your statements are just empty and pointless.
I'm sorry, I shouldn't have said bullied. You shouldn't get so angry. Debate is good.
I'm not angry in the least. Seems you can't handle debate.
oh I can debate fine. I'm just not sure you can. You seem to use this forum like it's your punch-bag.
Thx. - I needed some refreshing. Ready to take on all comers.
Mark Twain said "Never tell the truth to people who are not worthy of it." Frank Lloyd Wright is quoted as saying "The truth is more important than the facts," and Logan P. Smith said "If you want to be thought a liar, always tell the truth."
Did you see black hole or dark matter, that you believe those exist?
As per Dave the universe is 'god's' creation, created from nothing. Then the existence of the universe is the evidence of god. What is your problem if he chose to bring it in steps(evolution)? God is outside time and space, outside your 4D universe, then how your experiments can find him? You say the universe arose from nothing, Dave say, that event happened because of god, he created it from nothing. And such an omnipotent god, if does not wish to reveal himself to you or your instruments, how are you supposed to see him? After all nobody says your unicorn created the universe! And you don't expect god's foot prints or bones?
This is not to support you. All your claims are based on an ancient textbook written by barbaric Jews to show their superiority to themselves. All cultures have done this at various point of time, only this one is more widely accepted. Though it is most widely accepted does not make it true, nor the claims irrational. No book has created more discord or backwardness among humans than this book. Then you ask why you are ridiculed. Suppose I say it is a three headed man who created all the world from his mouth, and I ask everybody to follow him without rationally explaining why that belief is superior to everything else, you may probably ask me to get my head examined. You are also doing along the same line, only your version is widely followed. But wide acceptance is not the criteria to decide facts!
Just because you can't see or prove something doesn't mean it doesn't exist. For all we know the human body is an instrument to feel god and yours is set at a different frequency and a slight rearrangement turns a person into a believer.
Only a fool would allow anything other than self to dictate how their life is to be lived.
Life doesn't require any knowledge of any god, to be understood.
Life doesn't require any knowledge of any god, to be lived.
Therefore, no god required.
True, but that doesn't mean there is no god or what form that God takes.
As for life, I agree. but I think the concept of a God was not devised to aid in how to live. The concept is to explain what happens after death. Without a God concept, all life would then be meaningless since it would stop at death.
Untrue. This shows you inability to deal with reality, understand your life and know your role in the world you live in.
Life is given meaning, by one's self, which is to create purpose for self. Once you give your life purpose, you give it meaning as well. Make sure YOU give your life purpose and that it is NOT dictated by anything else. This will show you the true responsible path for living.
The purpose you create should not be about self. It should be greater than self. Example: Betterment of Humankind and/or the Survival of the Human Species. Both require you to see beyond yourself, understand and have compassion for others who don't know better.
Edit: No god required.
Would you say the same thing about a toddler with a screwdriver stuck in an electrical socket?
everyone's life is dictated by something or someone. you quickly find yourself in prison otherwise.
I agree that we cannot understand God. God cannot be understood, but He can be known. He can only be known when he reveals Himself.
Your comment is: "Maybe None of Us Understand God."
My question is: "understand what?"
Im not an atheist, there's no such thing.
Qwark - I don't see what position you are taking here. Are you agnostic?
I don't understand Santa either, I mean he has allll those toys and he just gives them away?!
Santa is an "ascetic" christian!...and he dresses funny, kinda like the pope 'cept Santa's fav color is red.
The dif between Santa and the pope is that Santa gives everything away.
The pope is a "hoarder" of anything of value and he only gives away "pocket change"(if ya beg for it.)
That's my take on it...:
I still don't understand what it is we're supposed to understand. God? what the hell is this god thing?
fun fact about god! everyone understands God through their own lens of perception. To the atheist he is a made up delirium who has never been proved. To the Christian he is Christ and the bible is his holy word. To the Muslim.... etc. etc. etc. Point being to each individual God seems to reveal himself differently.
Here's an interesting challenge to any non-believer. Look inside yourself and really, really analyze yourself. Take a deep introspective look into who you really are. Find out if you have a soul or you're just atoms that randomly combine together in increasingly complex, seemingly infinite patterns.
Use your awareness, that which is your attention and focus it introspectively. it is not easy, nor quick.
Such a quest will not allow one to find, see , or feel the soul, if it exists.
Well please share how you did that and how you know it's your soul?
my friend i just told you! if I could explain it in simpler terms i would. I am quite thankful to know my soul.
Not really. You said:
"Look inside yourself and really, really analyze yourself. Take a deep introspective look into who you really are..."
This doesn't answer How you knew it was your soul that you found.
sad if we need to understand god. Whatever your belief, just let it be :
No, I think we should constantly stive to strenghen our beliefs, whatever they are. Understanding is our quest in everyhing we do.
mediate, on a daily basis..as you so wish..
Faith comes into all this. If you have faith in believing that a supreme being exists, then you will be able to understand why we came into existence and the purpose of our life on earth.
It is a difficult concept to grasp for there is no evidential proof that God exists whereas the Darwenian theory has sound, factual proofs.
It's also for us to decide whether we want to believe in this supreme being or not; it's our own personal experience which helps us decide what we want to believe and whether we have faith in our beliefs as there is no evidential proof of a God but there is in evolution.
Peter, I was reading the title of this thread. I noticed you are suggesting that no one know anything about God and I respectfully disagree. None of us understand everything about God, but we can learn much about him by reading the word of God.
Hi my sister in Christ W.O.C
Wouldn't it be great if people decided to search for God based on Gods instructions, and not based on mans understanding (lots of head knowledge- and little faith).
He is as close as a humble prayer, and hides not from a sincere heart.
I find so many want evidence,proof,much like the world demands proof of Osama's death,yet even when Jesus walked among men ,they were not convinced.
That being said ,I understand why Christians are not believed by some, ridiculed by others, it is nothing new-
Still His voice calls and His Spirit is felt all these years later.The same God who said:
I have pursued you with an everlasting love-yes to the ends of the world
But my heart (like yours) rejoices in the one seeker who perhaps emails or leaves a message saying thank-you.
Hi my sister in Christ Yes that would be great. I love to walk by faith and to be humble to God's instructions. I am agreeing with your beautifully-written post. Christians do not need to show unbelievers proof. The evidence is revealed by God's spirit when we seek him .
Peter I just want to say thank you for your Hub it was very thought provoking and fodder for great discussion. I enjoyed reading everyones thoughts and ideas and even had to throw my 2 cents in as well. Good day!
Maybe none of us were meant to understand past a certain point. Wasn't the only explanation he was supposed to have given to Moses was I Am?. If you believe in God, you'd certainly have to wonder why there are so many who claim Divine knowledge and no one agrees.It leaves three options. There either is no God, or whatever God is, it can't communicate very well with the physical plane; or we simply wouldn't understand the explanation yet, so why bother. I can't imagine if there was a creator it would go out of the way to confuse everyone.
God exists. Just because you can't see him does not mean he is not present. Many miraculous things happen daily that science nor medicine or anyone can explain but still they miraculously happen. One cannot see the wind but can feel it and see its effects on life. All one has to do is to look at nature to see God creating from nothingness.
I'm not disagreeing. What I am saying is that your statement is based totally on what you have been taught,and not a realization you would have come to on your own.
Peter we all have to learn about things from somewhere the answers don't simply fall out of the sky and into our hands or fill our heads. It would be great if when we are born God introduced himself to each one of us and said I am God and I created you and everything in this universe, but instead we have to learn this and other things from people or books or through experience etc.
Dave - that's my point - we take what we were taught by those before us as the Word. And all those questions that we can't answer, we just either ignore or say it's a mystery. Or, many rebel at the inability to get answers to those questions and claim they are Atheists or at least Agnostics.
I don't have the ability to go either way. I just chalk it up, believe in a power and that is about as far as I can go.
But when God DOES introduce "him"self to you, you know. All the arguments thereafter are still entertaining but irrelevant. My mind now has an idea but God is not within my ability to comprehend much less explain. None of the things I had ever heard or learned about God had anything to do with what I discovered, but I certainly see why people stick to the giant man in the sky idea. Way easier to deal with, gives a way to discuss and relate and much less overwhelming and intimidating. If those ancient Israelites really knew God, I can see why they told Moses to go meet with him and to leave them far away!
so you haven't met god then? So how can you and other believers claim to have a personal relationship with god?
Not everyone goes by what they are taught. As a matter of fact, I have gone just the opposite.
If you do not learn on your own or you're not taught, how are you to know?
You can't judge others based on yourself. Your statement should have been that you don't know anything about God.
We're not all the same.
Deborah - fair enough. But those that say they "know" don't really "know", they "believe" based on the unproven.
The fact is I know that God has made a difference in my life.
I know how I was before ,and I know how I am know.
My life and my mind was changed for the better.
All saved christians have a relationship with God. We do something bad, God corrects us. We need something and God provides. My friend is sick unto death and God answers prayer and heals him. I need internal change in my life or revelation to handle a situation wisely and God works. I am lonely and need company, God listens and supports.
The relationship is what Christians use to identify with God. Part of that relationship involves studying His word, yes, but the majority of the christian relationship comes with obedience. The more we obey the closer we get to God, the more he reveals and the more we know. IF we stop obeying, God slows down the relationship, this is called a wilderness experience. We discover that the health of a christian relationship is directly equivalent to the health of their prayer life.
The ones who are closest to God have the best relationship with God.
Its this relationship that offers proof.
For example, there is this wonderful 'feeling' that the believer having prayed the sinners prayer and been saved by God experiences and life is wonderful, for a while, then its time to grow up. God removes the blessing of forgiveness and lets us see the state of our hearts. When self takes residence in our hearts this hinders the work of God. The christian can either get rid of self and surrender this area to God and then walk in Gods good graces of revelation, knowledge and power or the christian can give into self and end up in a wilderness situation. Kinda like low marks in school, good for a job, not THE job but some job. underqualified for Gods purpose.
We have heard the 'I love jesus" doctrine, love, love, love and all ya need is to love God. Well, jesus said "if ye love me you will keep my commandments".
Many failed christians have allowed self to reign in their lives and put God in the background and during this time of rebellion have wondered where is the proof? The more self takes over the less God is seen by them until all they can see is reality and their doctrine becomes physics.
Gods yoke is not burdensome, it is easy and light.
Two friends walking, talking while taking a stroll down a garden path.
We should let all the starving children in the world know that your god provides for you, I'm sure they'll be so happy for you as they lay down their lives for your happiness.
yes! and you and all the others can have the same thing and i thank God there are people out there trying to make this difference accessible to them. Enjoy your comfy couch.
Hi Peter, How do you know my statement is based totally on what I have been taught.? It seems you are assuming things. Actually, not one person in my life has told me to understand God by reading his word. I was taught that the bible is the word of God, but I have come to the realization on my very own to know God is through reading his holy word. You have a right to disagree.
Yes, just like unicorns and leprechauns, Dave.
Yes Dave, we can "see" the atmosphere and know exactly what it is made up of and understand that it moves thus creating 'wind.'
Sorry, but nature does not reveal gods, it reveals only itself and the evolutionary evidence of its origins.
First off there is but ( 1 )one God not gods. Nature as well as mankind as well as every building, car, dollar, computer, is a creation from God. Nothing in this world would exist, including the world itself, if God did not create it, nothing including you my friend.
That is merely your personal belief, Dave. It is entirely an irrelevant statement in light of the many religions who say exactly the same thing about their gods, hence we must use the term gods.
Again, that is just your personal belief which has nothing to do with reality, Dave. Entirely irrelevant.
You would not recognize reality if you tripped over it. You are like a cop who couldn't find his badge pinned to the front of his shirt.
True each religion has its "God" but it is the same God only they have a different name for Him. God is still God.
Yes these beliefs are my beliefs. You have no right to attack them with your negativity and sarcasm.
And yet, I study and observe reality as my work.
You contradict yourself, Dave. If that were true, what made you come to choose a particular god amongst all the other gods which you say are the same?
I have every right to attack your beliefs, Dave. Deal with it.
You may have the right, but you certainly don't have the background or the knowledge. The right you have is only your perceived right. Its like when i say I went into the mathematics room and started talking geography with them. In order to discuss math i have to use math as the basis for my discussion. This type of argument has value to both sides, but when peeps come in and start talking non bible with bible believers, its just moot. There is no level ground for discussion. If one side takes God out of the equation its like me taking the prime numbers away and then saying, "your math theories don't work". I seem pretty stupid doing this.
Your logic doesn't follow at all, however I'm not surprised.
Talking math and geography are two different topics, talking religion is one. Do you see your flaw now?
So, now you use the example of talking math with math. Notice how your posts make no sense at all?
you're not attacking Dave's beliefs Beelzedad, you're attacking Dave himself for having beliefs. You said that his personal beliefs are irrelevant. Why would you say another person's beliefs were irrelevant? That doesn't sound very democratic.
Belief is logical and entirely valid. Even scientists will tell you that.
Dave believes. Deal with it.
Yes, we've been down that road before. I understand believers assume we are attacking the person when we attack the beliefs. You may want to take a course on debating to understand the differences.
You sure like to make up stuff a lot.
Yes, I understand Dave believes. Thanks.
Dave I believe you are mistaken when you say there is others Gods but they are all the same god with a different name. Even God the one true God says in His Word that He is the true God making other gods less. A god is something one chooses to believe in and not all gods are equal or carry the same name or are the same. The God who created us to be is the one true God all other are poor imitations
As a Born Again Christian I realize there is but one God. What I am saying is that God is called by various names by different religions. God is still God.
You are absolutely right, by any name it is a representation of an ideal and not real, not under any name.
If you believed that, you wouldn't be a born again Christian.
You have also made many statements contrary to that effect. I can point them out to you each time you make them.
That's nice. Unfortunately, if there were only one god and he had many names, why does he deliver completely different messages to different geographical regions of the earth? Different doctrine, different, creation stories, different characters, different everything.
Obviously, if there is only one god, he wants us all to kill each other over his different messages.
The problem is not interpretation, the problem is in the 'understanding'
The key to understanding is the Holy Spirit
I suggest that is why you struggle understanding the real person Jesus Christ'
Nothing is impossible
No, the problem is with the vast array of difference messages. If you had ever taken the time to read something from other religions, you would know that.
Your "Holy Spirit" does not exist in other religions. Take the time to read something about other religions.
No, that is why you struggle to understand that your Christ means very little in other religions. Try to take the time to understand that.
Something obviously is.
Conflict in the understanding doesn't make it a lie though.
For example,my Doctor will interpret medical information and/or drug administration different to your Doctor or several other Doctors.
Same symptom-different diagnosis.
Of course not all Religions acknowledge the Holy Spirit.
I accept that it is their choice.
You're example is fallacious. Your doctor can interpret the SAME information. Religions don't offer the SAME doctrines. Do you understand yet?
And, you don't acknowledge their doctrines and gods because they deliver completely different messages than your god.
Again, do you understand yet?
Some doctrines I accept ,some I dont.
All about choices.
What I dont get is ..why you find that so strange-Diversity and Humans go hand in hand.
But it does not have to be conflict.
Based on this post you believe the pursuit of ultimate truth through religion simply comes down to picking the one you like, and any is as good as another?
Sounds like a new Eaglekiwi to me.
More a matter of doctrines I believe in I accept (there is a difference) for some I do like ,but have no foundation -so ultimately I reject.
Is that not a positive and healthy mind?
I dont know if that means a new me or not ,probably is since I believe a stagnant mind is pretty much a dead one.
P.S Curious now ,what is the old Eaglekiwi lol?
Certainly not if if the doctrines you accept are encapsulated in only one religion and those doctrines have no relevance to reality. That would the furthest from a positive and healthy mind. In fact, it is no mind at all.
You haven't made any choices, you were indoctrinated into a particular religion and you only accept the doctrines within that religion. You don't accept doctrines from other religions because they are contrary to your doctrines.
Are you beginning to understand yet?
Diversity? Is that what you call it?
It isn't diversity at all, it is a completely different set of doctrines that YOU don't accept because it is a completely different religion with completely different messages.
Hence, there is no one god if all religions are to be taken seriously.
But, it always will be.
Won't some of those doctors, necessarily then, be wrong?
What you're saying isn't true. There are many great similarities between religions. Take the ten commandments for example. Or the idea of marriage, or prayer, or pilgrimage, or fasting, or heaven, or chastity, or charity, or celebration, or music, or the burial of the dead......all the major religions have these in common.
What a ridiculous thing to say. Are you claiming all religions have the ten commandments? Hilarious.
No, they don't. Clearly, you have no idea about other religions. Again, you're just making stuff up as you go along. Terrible behavior.
Yes you are correct there are many names for God however there are also many gods that others follow that are not God. Mahamad for instance was a man that some call god however he is dead ours is not. Budah is a god that is also dead and is not our living God. So yes Jehovah, Yaweh, Jehovah Shalom etc. this is our God but not all the gods others worship is the God. I am glad you are a born again christian!!
That came out of no where?
Just appeared like magic
And you say the Christians believe in fairytales
Now THAT'S some specious reasoning! "Since we know the wind exists even though we can't see it, we can rightly assume that ANYTHING unseen and claimed to exist probably exists also." That might fly with the kids at Sunday School, but not in here with the grown ups. You've got 5 senses, so if one of them fails to perceive something, you've still got 4 to fall back on. You can't see the wind, but you can hear it, feel it, and see its effect. God, on the other hand offers no such alternative options. You're just appealing to the "God of the gaps" fallacy, where you assume that any time you (or science) can't explain something, "Goddidit."
And if your definition of "miracle" is "science can't explain it," you're basically claiming that the concept of miracles is relative to its audience. Science couldn't explain MOST of the things a few hundred years ago that it can now, but that doesn't make any of those things miraculous back when they happened.
To claim something is miraculous is to claim that it is in violation of one of the physical laws of the universe. Since we don't yet have a COMPLETE understanding of all those laws, there's really no way of determining whether or not a miracle is occurring, despite you claims. BTW, what "daily miracles" are you talking about? (or are you just calling anything you can't explain a miracle?)
Yes miracles are relevant to their audience.
Just because you can't perceive a miracle doesn't mean it doesn't exist.
Spiritual things are spiritually discerned.
What ungodly people call coincidence and chance and luck, godly people, ascribe to the workings of God.
Ive been all over the 'violation of physical laws'. In the beginning God created... the parting of the sea... jesus healing the sick and maimed, restoration of the withered hand.. his ascension.... God is more than able to violate physical laws, they are under his authority. To take the supernatural out of the bible and christianity is not possible. We live in a supernatural world full of supernatural expectancy.
No, we live in a natural world where people constantly IMAGINE that supernatural things are going on because they desperately want it to be true. And we have loads of holy books CLAIMING supernatural things took place once upon a time, but since there's no way to verify any of those claims, and since those kinds of things never happen anymore, there's no good reason to believe those books were telling the truth. What you call "spiritual discernment" is nothing more than making up supernatural explanations for events which don't require any supernatural explanation.
I'm sorry but you don't know and because of your misunderstandings and lack of knowledge and carnally minded trappings i break off dialogue with you. Perhaps i am just sick of hearing this malarkey all over again.
Believe what you will, but your inference of desperate is as lame as the hope your belief gives you.
over and out.
"Ah, the ol' I'm-Taking-My-Ball-And-Going-Home-Because-The-Big-Kids-Won't-Let-Me-Make-Up-My-Own-Rules-To-Their-Game defense! Well played, sir. Well played indeed.
My goodness, can't agree with your brethren or anybody else. Are you sure you didn't just make up your own personal religion?
you really have read Dawkins haven't you. Alas Dawkins is not the great scientist he thinks he is. I recommend you read The Dawkins Delusion by Alister McGrath. Puts into perspective that he's a bit of a joke and a fuddy-duddy really.
That's quite a Leap,if it cant be explained then god must have done it.Proof of god buy inference.And while we're on the subject of leaping...and Unicorns...here's some advise you should take to heart...never and I mean Never...play Leapfrog with a Unicorn,they can not be trusted to keep their heads down.That will raise your voice at least three octaves if your leap of Faith isn't Very well calculated.OUCH!
That's true, I see people in the hospital who aren't given any hope by the doctor, yet because of their hope in God they get well.
Someone said that because I am a nurse I should not believe in a God. That I should be scientific in my thoughts like the other nurses.
I got news for that person. All of the nurses I've met believe in God. They have also witnessed recovery where the prognosis was poor.
"They get well because of their hope in God" is a statement both of faith AND of scientific value, which means it's testable. But to test it, you'd have to remove every other conceivable variable from the equation: their loved ones, their pets, their jobs, their personalities, their general outlook on life, etc. Remember, there's a big difference between correlation and causation. And since people who believe in God both recover and die at the exact same rate as people who don't believe, it would seem like you've opted for causation rather than correlation - after engaging in selective observation (counting the hits and ignoring the misses) - simply because you LIKE that explanation, and not because it's objectively true.
That's interesting if you take God out of the equation. Death, to the christian is entirely in Gods hands. People die and recover, but why? because of their doggie? their good jobs? their wonderful personalities.... what power do these attributions really have? Oh i had cancer but because of my wonderful lifestyle and pal, Rover here, i am recovered. If this were the case then nobody would die unless a car hit em. You're scenario also leaves out those who are heavily medicated and those unaware of their surroundings, comatose and zomboid and those in Intensive Care Wards.
This is what i call, "scraping the bottom of the barrel fallacy".
In case you did not realize this you have used the substitution fallacy, the healing power of a good life for the knowledge and power of God.
Sorry, I got whiplash there trying to follow all your points, and I had to go ice my neck for a bit. What I was saying is that people with an optimistic outlook on life - or something to live for that brings them joy (the medically sound reason why many senior homes get pets for the residents) - tend to have a better recovery rate than their counterparts, regardless of religious belief/nonbelief. How you extrapolated that thought to mean that, in my worldview, only people getting hit by cars would die is beyond me.
The facts is that many ailments, physical problems, and diseases are reversible. Cancer goes into spontaneous remission all the time...equally so for theists and non. Science cannot yet explain why this is, but somehow you think you can...which is weird if you think about it. If someone has allergies and gets a cortizone shot to fix it, you don't say "God did it," because you know how the recovery occurred. But if someone recovers from cancer - and since science can't yet explain how or why - you say, "God did it," which is like saying, "I can't explain it, therefore I can explain it: GOD!"
Like I stated previously: there was a time when science couldn't explain how or why a sick person sneezing could make another person sick. Religious people invoked divine causes or demonic activity, and then science discovered germ theory and all the supernatural trappings went out the window. This is called the "God of the Gaps" fallacy, which is a REAL logical fallacy and not one I just made up like your "scraping the bottom of the barrel fallacy." You use "God" to explain anything that doesn't have an immediate and obvious explanation, apparently content to ignore the fact that people have been doing this for thousands of years, and always eventually realize that it wasn't necessary to invoke the divine in the first place.
(And you're going down a mighty slippery slope if you want to start claiming that every death is in God's hands, because that argument relinquishes any defense you may have ever had about abortion. It was just those fetus' God-appointed time to die, right?)
because people sin and do bad things, does that mean that God pushed them to do bad things? or was it just their choice? I'll answer that for ya. It was their choice. In case you haven't noticed we have a lot of things that are in the power of our own hands. God just shakes his head.
I will fully disclose my thoughts on this topic further. I see in the bible that God shuts up wombs and opens them. Amazing huh. We see this in Abraham. Jeremiah was born for a specific purpose. (Jeremiah 1:4 i think 4). But concerning the unsaved people i think God lets the fire they play with, burn them. Why would a loving God do this? Because he respects our free will, the very purpose we were created - to be different than the angels and people often turn to God in times of affliction. Affliction brings the christian closer to God and brings people to God. You see, humans value this life far more than they should because compared to what God has in store after this life, is so so much better than what we have now. I hope you have enough background to compute this information correctly, not tryin to be ferocious, just saying this is not a simple thing to explain in so short a post .
So is every death in Gods hands?... lets look at the christians who pray, sometimes the person dies. There are so many factors its kinds dumb to generalized as i have done, but i will continue anyhow. Sometimes the person gets better. Either way the Christian is "yay God".
We are reminded of omniscience. Lets say i create a painting and i put a tree in the lower left hand corner. Someone comes along and says, "hey, why did you put that tree there, it should be over in the other corner and that bird should be there and the river should run this way and that way not as you have it". I would just say, "excuse me, I wanted my painting this way". Hopefully the person would realize that they have no say in what i have done with my creation. How much more should we NOT criticize how God is with his creation.
But it's in the BIBLE, it must be true.
Does limiting God make you feel better? Read genesis 1:1 again
...and just in case you don't get the point from Genesis, you can read the exact same thing in the Babylonian Creation Epic, which is where the Hebrews plagiarized it from.
Now that's a big lie. They copied it from the Hebrews. They were slaves in Babylon, and their things were taken.
All of the major people in scripture are Hebrew. The people of Babylon did not worship God..just idols.
The Hebrews have three Torahs..The Written, The Oral and the Hidden. They don't pass the last two around.
Don't believe everything you read.
Genesis has a lot of secret codes, that the English don't understand so they interpret it mundanely.
I am not interested in what you believe and are going to say..so, no need to reply.
The Jews have been attacked physically and by slander many times, and when they fight back they are the bad ones..well, not to me.
I guess that makes sense...given that throughout history, the priestly class of enslaving nations were well-known to traipse around the slave work sites trying to gleam religious information to write their books. (Or perhaps it doesn't make sense since the Babylonian writings pre-date the earliest Hebrew writings by a good millennium and a half.)
My bad. I didn't realize this was your personal thread for allowing everyone else in the forum to bask in your wisdom while you decide who else has the right to post here. Please allow me to correct my mistake:
ATTENTION FORUM: Before posting any more thoughts in this thread, please first take the time to privately consult Deborah Sexton, who is the sole and final arbiter on who gets to say what when.
There. That should make things right.
No, but my personal Family members are Hebrew. My Husband was born in Israel and I lived there for one year. You insult my family, you also insult me with that lie.
I don't BELIEVE that especially not from reading it, I KNOW it.
You don't make since in your GUESS about who the authors are.
The Hebrews lived in Babylon and it was Known as Babel before it was taken over. The Hebrew were killed and some were made to be slaves in their own place.
They weren't in slave work sites, they were captives in their own land.
The Hebrew Scriptures constantly mention Babylon and Assyria, which posed a serious threat throughout the existence of the nation of Israel. The scriptures and Jewish history speaks of them with disgust. By the way, they hated God.
I never said I have wisdom, you just did yourself.
Unlike you I don't attack those who have not attacked my family or me.
And of course people would have looked for their spiritual stuff (not religious) because they were known for their power and miracles and people wanted their secrets.
If it makes you feel any better, my mom's side of the family is all Jewish, which means I am too. But since none of your immediate family members wrote any of the texts in question, it doesn't make a whole hell of a lot of sense to get offended by proxy.
I'm sorry, but I have no idea what any of that means. Clarify?
I haven't attacked anyone...(or else you're using a definition of "attacked" that I've never been formally educated to) Pointing out that 2 cultures have the same stories, and that one culture's story is way older than the others' isn't an attack.
I absolutely love when people get all cocky with wrong information! If you were more familiar with your own Jewish heritage, you'd know that Jewish tradition reckons the beginning of Judaism with Abraham, who lived hundreds of years after the last mention of Babel (which I'm sure you know is modern Iraq). There weren't any Jews around before Babel became Babylon, and once it did, the only Jews present were migrating west towards Egypt...so, no, the Jews never owned Babylon.
Finally - and honestly, I don't see how you even have an argument here - we HAVE in our possession both the Hebrew stories and the Babylonian stories that are the same. This is not a BELIEF, it's a piece of academic KNOWLEDGE. We also KNOW that the Babylonian writing is far earlier that the Hebrew writing. If you want to contest that point, take it up with the literary, archeological, and anthropological scholars who have verified and taught this for decades, not me for just repeating it.
You were already done before. I promise you don't have to keep popping up to tell me you're not speaking to me anymore. We kinda moved past that right around 7th grade.
Yes, I know it is today's Iraq. Looked it up did you?
You're still wrong.
I speak Hebrew and Babel aka Bavel is a Hebrew word.
I know my family history.
Jews occupied Babel before it became Babylon. Nimrod founded it.
I don't keep popping up to say I'm not speaking to you.
I said I'm done..the post ended.
You can't even grasp the meaning of the English words, much less Hebrew
<<sigh>> Whatever helps you sleep at night...
Well, I guess you win that round since I claimed it wasn't. Wait, what?
How is this possible since Abraham was the first Jew?
Maybe your problem is that you don't realize many words have more than one meaning? In your previous post you said you were finished talking to me and would not respond again. My bad for taking your words at face value. In the future - and since you haven't done it in any other of your posts til now - you don't have to treat these forums like you're on a walkie-talkie, and say, "over" every time you finish writing. People will know you're done because there won't be anything further to read. We don't come to the end of your post, and then start scavenging around the hidden corners of the internet to see if we missed your unattached final thoughts.
(static sound) "roger, that's a bogey." lol.
BTW, only a minor correction: Abraham was NOT a Jew.
Just an FYI from the FAA, na`mean?
Copy that, squadron leader. Over.
Yeah, I figured that being from Ur in Mesopotamia, he was probably not as Jewish as Deborah wants us to believe. My point with her was that Jewish tradition doesn't trace the Jewish heritage back any earlier than Abraham. (She's not having it, though).
Not true. Abram aka Avram is a common Hebrew name.
It's true that they weren't called that until the son of Judah. But a rose is a rose.
Abraham is one of the best-known people of the Bible. He's a key figure in the history of both the Jewish and Arab people. He was the great-grandfather of Judah, whose descendants became known as the Jews, and he was also the father of Ishmael, from whom many of the Arab people are descended. Abraham was a Hebrew, and although the ancestor of both, Abraham himself was neither Jew nor Arab.
Abraham From the Scriptural genealogical record comes some of the most well-known terms relating to Israelite people: Semite and Semitic originate from Noah's son Shem, and Hebrew is derived from Eber, the ancestor of Abraham. According to Bible History -
"The Sons Of Noah: Shem, Ham and Japheth...The sons of Shem: Elam, Asshur, Arphaxad, Lud and Aram. The sons of Aram: Uz, Hul, Gether and Meshech. Arphaxad was the father of Shelah, and Shelah the father of Eber. Two sons were born to Eber: One was named Peleg, because in his time the earth was divided; his brother was named Joktan. Joktan was the father of Almodad, Sheleph, Hazarmaveth, Jerah, Hadoram, Uzal, Diklah, Obal, Abimael, Sheba, Ophir, Havilah and Jobab. All these were sons of Joktan. Shem, Arphaxad, Shelah, Eber, Peleg, Reu, Serug, Nahor, Terah and Abram (that is, Abraham). The sons of Abraham: Isaac and Ishmael." (1 Chronicles 1:4,17-28)
From two other people come two other very well-known identities: Israelites are the descendants of Isaac's son Jacob, who God renamed Israel, and from Jacob's son Judah come the terms Jew and Jewish.
Yup, a Jew, by definition, is one who observes the whole law and is circumcised. It is actually not considered a religion, but a lifestyle, to many. Although Abram was self-circumcised at like ninety years old, he technically was not a Jew. No Law, No Jew. Kind of like Winona Ryder. Over.
Now you're confusing ethnicity with religion. Whatever Semitic race Abraham belonged to - yes, there would have obviously been others (maybe even everyone?) at the time. But since these people are the ones who occupied Babel, it wouldn't give any special claims to the the Jewish faith once it was created.
Well...there's your problem. You read the Cliff's Notes version of an account that wasn't written in a language you speak, and then tried to treat it as if you had the same understanding as one you are intimately familiar with. You can't treat every other religion superficially, while trying to understand your own at its deepest levels, and then claim that you evaluated them both the same.
Because - unlike you - I didn't spend 20 years studying one and 20 minutes studying the other.
How do you figure I'm confused. Jew is nationality, Jewish is religion.
Oh my God, sweetheart...REALLY?!!! Jew and Jewish are the same thing. HEBREW was the nationality...later Israelite. And Abraham was considered the first Hebrew. When you start a new nation, your ancestors don't retroactively become part of that nation. Abraham was the founder of the Hebrews, established by his covenant with God. Since Abraham was the first person considered a Hebrew, and his great-grandson Judah the person for whom "Jew" and Judaism was named, how on earth do you maintain that Judah's descendants OWNED Babylon?
Now ya know why she makes me laugh...:
Religious bigotry does make one worthy of a laugh.
The problem is that that kind of religious bigotry has proved to be deadly down thru the ages.
It is fanaticism and fanaticism, right or left, is dangerous.
I hear ya. Give a 10-year old 1 martial arts class and they think they're Bruce Lee. Give Deborah 12 months in Israel and she's suddenly the world's preeminent rabbinical scholar.
Bigotry? How am I a Bigot
I felt one time about you being a certain person. Since you called me a bigot now I KNOW you're that person.
No, Jew and Jewish is not the same thing. Ask A Jew.
Jewish is religion.
You must be American.
No one mention retro.
If you don't know something don't act like it's the other person. I lived in Savyon for a year.
I did. He says you're wrong.
No, it's both a religion AND a culture, which is how someone like yours truly can be Jewish while not believing in, practicing, or belonging to Judaism. It's kinda like how a rectangle can be a square, but not every one is. Hang it there, kiddo. You'll get it eventually.
Guilty. Or more specifically, an American Jew.
No, you didn't use the word "retro," but you used the idea. If you say, "the day before yesterday," you also didn't use the word "Monday," but it means the same thing, so quit splitting hairs.
Not a problem. I'll be sure to remember that just as soon as it becomes applicable.
Yeah, well, I lived in Changsha, China for 2 years, so I guess I'm twice as qualified to preach on the meaning and origins of the I Ching and the Asian people as you are with the Torah and Abrahamic ancestors you keep making up nationalities for.
No real Jew would say I'm wrong.
I live with my husband and he's a Jew that speaks Hebrew and he is Jewish
I am allowed to teach I got my certificate of semichah after I learned from the Priests.
Like the other Bruce said I was trying to get people to believe like me. No Jewish person wants any non-Jew to convert.
see if you can learn this now.
Who is a Jew?
A Jew is any person whose mother was a Jew
It is important to note that being a Jew has nothing to do with what you believe or what you do. A person born to non-Jewish parents who has not undergone the formal process of conversion but who believes everything that Orthodox Jews believe and observes every law and custom of Judaism is still a non-Jew, even in the eyes of the most liberal movements of Judaism, and a person born to a Jewish mother who is an atheist and never practices the Jewish religion is still a Jew, even in the eyes of the ultra-Orthodox
Let's all take the time to thank Deborah for sharing what she learned after receiving her certificate of semichah, which is apparently how to cut-and-paste responses from About.com (here is the site: http://judaism.about.com/od/judaismbasi … jewish.htm). If anyone else has any pressing queries for Deborah, rest assured that she will be utilizing the full extent of her learning and the Holy Spirit (aka: Wikipedia) to dispense her wisdom and knowledge. Now, is there anyone in the room who can share what they believe without having to Google it first?
I didn't get it from About.com
But if I posted my own words again, what good would that you do. Because you are unlearned, you would have called me a liar again.
I got it from a website with info on the Jews.
When you read it you're gonna get confused
Fine, Then more than 1 website has the same information. The point is that it's funny that you're boasting about whatever certificate you received that somehow demonstrate how much you know about the Jews (because no one with a certificate has ever been wrong about anything), and then you're surfing the web to find out exactly what a Jew is. That's good comedic material!
Well. I had to get a third party because unless I did you would keep calling me a liar. I don't have to find out what a Jew is. My husband, my parent-s in law, and my grand-parents, and my brothers and sisters in law are all Jews born in Israel. I was taught by the Priests.
But you know why I did it. You just want the attention to stay on me and not you. Sad
I'll grant you this: you definitely have self-indulgent Jewish pity party down pat enough to convince me that you're not trolling. I have never ONCE called you a liar (or any other name). I think you are wrong, not lying. Big difference.
You are the ONLY person in this forum who cares one whit what a Jew is. Great, so you married a Jew, and lived with some Jews, and studied with some Jews. Congratulations. You are now exactly no steps closer to demonstrating how said Jews owned anything before there were any Jews. Back to the drawing board with you!
No I don't. How would I?
WHAT??!! Now you're just flinging stuff at the walls and hoping something sticks. I don't begrudge you your narcissism in assuming that everyone thinks everything is about you, but if your theory was true it would kinda be the opposite of "sad." (You know, because most people like attention, and don't generally consider it a negative thing when others pay it to them.) Of course if you thought I was trying to keep all the attention on myself, you would have no doubt declared that was "sad" too, so you've pretty much constructed this whole scenario so I lose regardless of what I do.
Bottom line is it isn't about me or you. It's about your position, which you posited, and therefore you need to defend. All this talk about who's a Jew, and where you studied, and who you married, and how picked-on you feel, and who you're going to fight after you steal somebody's drugs is all a bunch of filibustering to avoid dealing with the 2 erroneous statements you made: 1) That the Jews used to own Babylon, and 2) That the Hebrew Bible was written before the Babylonian creation story. (and the Jews ALSO "borrowed" part of their creation myth from the Sumerians, who wrote the oldest texts we have on record.)
Aaannnnnd......Deborah has just demonstrated the time-honored and intellectually sound principle of argumentation that repeating something over and over again makes it true. I stand corrected. The Jews owned Babel. Deborah said so twice.
To people who are nice? No. To people who are arrogant, condescending, and ill-informed? Yes.
And nice, is anyone who agrees with you and takes all your Cr-- without fighting back. Well, I'm never going to be nice.
Calling me names just doesn't hurt.
Of course not. Why would somebody try to start a fight with me after stealing my crack? What does any of this have to do with drugs?
If that's the bed you choose to sleep on...more power to ya.
I'll just continue to meet people where they're at.
Who are you talking to now? I haven't called you any names (except "sweetheart," which isn't supposed to be painful)
You really should calm down
I guess you've never met a lady and aren't
aware how to treat them
Well, we will all die.
But I've stated before that the hospital I work for is a training and research hospital. They look closely at everything and compare. When they finish their research, which sometimes takes years, they report their findings to the government.
Our hospital is the one that found that people die within three (3) months before or after their birthday (not deaths due to accident, suicide, or murder)
Our hospital has found the ones that got well even though they had a poor prognosis, believed in and trusted God.
(This research is important to them. Our hospital is Catholic and is run by sister Celeste and partners)
And far be it from the Catholic church to fudge facts to promote a particular belief!
I bet they would have also found that the ones who got well even though they had a poor prognosis had televisions. According to your reasoning, we could aptly conclude that tv's make people get better. Since there are a plethora of other possibilities I can think of off the top of my head - and since none of them have been tested or evaluated - I'm still not sure how you can definitively say what made a person get well. Were they not in the hospital? Do hospitals not make people better? I think it's hilarious how a person will get sick and opt to head to the hospital instead of a church, and then when they get better from the 24/7 presence of modrn technology, declare, "Goddidit."
I'm just guessing that since nuns aren't scientists, sister Celeste et al don't know how to properly conduct a double blind experiment to isolate variables. It sound like yet another case of religionists using ill-understood statistics to "prove" things they want to be true.
No, its people trusting in what their God says. I often have wondered how a person would find a bit of mold in a peetree dish and decide to see if that mold has any medicinal benefits. Or that a key on a kite string would lead to electricity. Why did the hula hoop catch on? lol, i jest
We don't use ill-understood statistics to prove things we want to be true, we trust in God always. I can't second guess Gods intents, i have no better wisdom or greater insight. I cannot change tomorrow to suit my designs. The great thing about faith is, when used, it never fails. I can well imagine that people who trust in God to heal them will get better and often i perceive this is the lesson that God approves of. We think cancer is sooo bad, but cancer at any stage can be cured by a word from God, its not a big deal to God while he checks the results of the "trial". Sometimes people need to slow down, hospitals are a good slow down time of closeness. This parallels what i said before about affliction bringing people closer to God or too God.
Its all about being saved. Its all about relationship with God.
I agree with you!.. I've worked with Nurses, and I know a Nurse who belongs to a Catholic Church who runs healing energy with her hands. (Reiki) in her church.. She and I have done Reiki in a Reiki group People get well according to their belief system.. Its MIND/BODY mix..Anger and negative thinking can destroy our health.
So did I, but on our own we would definitely come to the conculsions taught by the various religions. Those were invented by Man(or Woman)
Oh goodie, now the atheists have the person they have been looking for. There's the proof you folks have been wanting to see! Now would be a good time to ask him/her personally, here in the HP forum, about those starving kids, etc.
I agree with you.We are all Divine sparks of God..which is pure energy..We have Divine intelligence within us..and the whole truth about God, is pure unconditional love, and nothing more is ever needed..
Interesting.. we are all divine sparks of God, we have divine intelligence within us... so who is to teach us how to bring this about so we actually can use the immeasurable intellect of God?
this pure unconditional love that we all have... where does it go when the idiot driver cuts us off in traffic? Or where did our personal anger come from when some stranger injured us. When jesus was being beaten, did he flip some person 'the bird'? would we?
This divine spark is what God begins with and builds into a huge flaming bonfire. But who is to teach us how to make this a reality in our lives?
We can each claim it on our own can we? Shame this obvious fact is hidden from such a huge percentage of the worlds population. Perhaps this spark or divine intelligence is dependant upon something to guide it......... like its owner, who is probably God.
When a bus driver ran over my little brother, many years ago, i sent a letter of compassion to him..I was 17 years old.at the time. I tried to put myself in his place. I knew how guilty he must have felt, in killing my brother.. I was harshly criticized for doing this, but I know this was the right thing to do.. I have noticed, that when people get angry or upset, they will almost always experience pain.. I believe anger can make you sick or even have an accident.. I believe we teach by example and by sharing our stories....Remember the Amish community, that chose to forgive the man that executed their children, and not only that, but that they also went to help, and comfort his family. Gandhi, was seen blessing the man, that shot him, as he died.. I have chosen to forgive those people who were violent towards me, my family, and towards my son! I have seen much insanity in my life, but I have forgiven them all.. Its the only way, I can find Peace in my life...
Interesting. I was hit by a bus when i 2.5 yrs young, almost lost my right leg, smashed a lot of bones. Had a pretty much normal childhood. At 35 my leg decided to attack me by way of lymphoma, blood poisoning and much swelling, indeed i was housebound for 6 yrs and at the end of all that starving on welfare. Buses are formidable opponents. I have never been moved to forgive the guy but i hold no bad towards the driver.
I have found peace through Jesus Christ, my leg is back to 99% health, i am working for the first time since i was 35. Im 53. Ive been saved for 2 yrs on the 13th of may. I have found that God works quickly and efficiently.
Thanks for the reply.
You had Lymphoma"
nope. lymphoma was a spell check option.
the correct word is what i thought it was, but i spelled it wrong
the accumulation of lymph in soft tissue with accompanying swelling, often of the extremities: sometimes caused by inflammation, obstruction, or removal of lymph channels.
I had this big time.
Yes, edema is the swelling.
Well I'm glad you didn't have Lymphoma, my mom died from that auto-immune cancer
Lymph anything sucks. Its amazing how much distortion the body can take on and how eerie it looks when not in its normal form. Tumors bite.
Sorry for your loss. On the upside, my mom has dementia and keeps askin me the same questions weekly.... an exercise of patience indeed. One of my friends has a dad who asked... who is that lady who comes to visit? She's his daughter. I have another friend who is just about 100% blind and he says, "on a list of ailments to have, I figure i am near the top for desirability". Sickness, is well, interesting, survivors and those closest can learn much. It kinda brings people together, except when mom asks why i am not married yet for the third time this week.
Keep our chins up, eh.
I figured you were a relatively 'new' christian - all that zeal
Well, my first year was hell (metaphorically speaking). As one who enjoyed quite a few sins and lead a self ruled life, God had work to do. I found smoking cigs and pot just fell away. Never had a problem with drinkin but found when mixed with females, it had its purpose. I should have gotten married before i threw my sex life out the window So I've never felt so lonely and bored (at times). I have always been on the go and cannot seem to sit still for long periods of time, waiting on the Lord is fidgety stuff but enlightening. Guess i'm kind of a hyper guy.
Now that much of the cleaning up work is completed in me, i am calmer now, happier, and can deal with the 'gift of singleness'. The journey has been tremendously hard and not without many astonishments and arggghs.
I don't have a lot to do with 'Egypt' and have had much time to spend in the word and with God.
Zeal sounds like a nice ribbon around the package, but payin dues.. you bet. Its hard to let go of 50 yrs of self. I wish i had done this from childhood. God, through it all has been more than wonderful.
brotheryochanan, Yes! My brother Sean, died of severe head and chest injuries. It must have been so terrifying for you..Some of us have had to go through horrific experiences in our lives.and as result, we started searching for answers. I had a mystical experience with God, when I was 35 years old. It occurred when I chose to forgive someone, that I had perceived as a enemy. I have never such Bliss and LOVE in all my life.. I did not belong to a church. It happened as I was driving my car home...and it went on all night.. I learned for myself, that God was real.. but God was not anything like they described in the old testament, nor in many religious doctrines. God is an Energy Force of indescribable LOVE.
Its the same love that causes God to deal with us stubborn humans. Its the same love that chastises and disciplines and it will be the same love that judges at the end of it all - for better or for worse.
Love is never without its sorrows and existence is never without its rules
Think somebody would have to learn something if they believed they were God.
Hello Peter. No, my feelings about my faith comes from walking through the fires of this world and it not being able to consume me!
I admire that - but that faith was initially taught, and you strengthed it by experience.
My experiences have diminished it. I was taught by the nuns for 8 years and that was pure indoctrination.
Of course it was, it was catholic.
see that for what it is, false religion
do try again though, the graces and mercies of God are able to overcome that indoctrination.
Peter, I was also taught by the nuns, and yes we know what indoctrination truly is.. When someone states I AM.. it means they know they are a part of God.
This is why i never believe the church in general is the bride of Christ. Its the heart God is concerned about and the heart resides in individual believers not a denomination or a building. My belief is when the bride is ready it will be a few believers from here and over there and everywhere, not just the baptists or just the pentecostals. As much as i am against catholicism there may well be hearts that right before God, trapped in there lol.
I think church is good and every believer should find one and be faithful there, just so ya all don't get me wrong on this.
I prefer not to belong to just one church. There is good in all beliefs, if one practices unconditional love. I don't feel that we need a priest, minister, or theologian, to dictate what is right for us... Its important to listen and discern what you believe in for yourself.. There are good teachers and bad...but everyone is a teacher....
I agree that we do not need a Church to receive Gods grace ,but it is in our interests to meet with fellow believers for edifying and fellowship. Much in the same way people with other people over a common interest.
That being said , I don't go along with all the trappings and traditionally man made rituals of many of the mainstream churches.
(Some religions are so heavenly minded ,they are of no earthly use-and God abhored the self rightous lording it over anyone.
The simplest faith and child like heart is more precious to God.
Donna suthard and eagekiwi
I completely disagree that the church is not important.
Where does one meet fellow believers if not in the church?
Belonging to a church keeps the christian in check, having no one to answer too or being a long wolf is problematic.
Everyone has a gift, whats the point of keeping it to yourself?
Church is to edify others and learn things. I think my pastor teaches wonderful things and each sunday my own experience and knowledge is added to. Church should also be a time of praise, pentecostals know this. How can the gifts be exercised if they are not practiced.. whens the last time you heard tongues and intepretation or gave a word of exhortation for the edification of all.
You gotta be a part of church even if you have to do what i did, visit each church until ya find the one that says, HOME. I found mine in a neighboring town. When the last time anybody without a church partook of communion? as the Lord said you should.
I agree with you. Eaglekiwi and Brotheryochannan! You both have a great deal of wisdom! Where even two or 3 is gathered its considered a church. I prefer small groups now, rather than being involved in a church, after having belonged to one for several years.. Recently, A dear friend of mine, who was the church's secretary, was discredited, after catching the assistant minister with a married man, in the church hallway in a sexual position .After reporting the incident to the chairman of the board.. She was yelled at, and a litany of hatred was targeted at her..finally she quit her position because of the hostility.
I encouraged her to forgive them, and she did..I chose after that, not to attend Sunday services, at this particular church but I do attend some of the great classes there, as I have many wonderful friends. I had a Catholic upbringing, and was a practicing catholic, until I was 18..After that I chose to think, for myself.. I did enjoy the teachings of Robert Schulleler, and Norman Vincent Peale, when I was young. I studied, Eastern thought, which is very compatible to my way of thinking..I learned a great deal from my Native American friends, about their spiritual experiences.. and the Aborigines from Australia. I have enjoyed my experiences with a Unitarian Church. I'm not a member though. This church is Christian, and they are open to atheists, gays, Buddhists, pagans, and to all those who believe in God and to those who do not. These people are all members of this same church.. They invite people from all belief systems, to teach and speak to the congregations.They are humanitarian, and they help those in need...They have a wise, open minded minister! I also enjoy meditating in Catholic churches.. I also attend Mass sometimes. I'm not dismissing churches as a whole, brotheryochanan. There are good teachers, for people to follow, and there are some, that have other motives.. It sounds like you have found a wonderful church.. I have had wonderful experiences with the Sufi's, and Yogananda's self realized groups, I have learned a great deal, with all my wonderful friends that are Hispanic, white, Native American, Arabic, Russian, Chinese, New age, Japanese, Greek, Pagan, ( as they call them selves) etc..Some are Catholic, some are not.. It doesn't matter what ttheir race or creed is! I love them all.. those who believe, and those who do not.. I belong to all tribes, and all races, and that is my core belief..
Somehow many people have found God, without any written teachings, long before the white man came along.. They learned through their inner and outer experiences, as to what worked, and what didn't
death for the Christian is referred to as sleep.
when we go to sleep we have faith that we will rise again in the morning. The morning represents a new day, glorious beginnings.
Sleep is also restful and beneficial and good in that it enables us to experience the new day.
Sleep is an end to the conflict of the day.
When resurrected into the afterlife no one will say ( who is Saved) "man i did not want that sleep".
Ray, call me aloof, but based on that take --the self-- and no god required, one would conclude this:
"Fine, my life is my own. I make of it what I choose, because in the end, everything I did was pointless. When the breath in me ends, so I end, never to be seen or heard from again. The very fact I or any human exists is irrelevant. Therefore, in truth, my existence was nothing and certainly without any value. I came with nothing, leave with nothing. nothing gained, nothing lost. Nothing to progress to, nothing to leave behind --because that would be futile. No past, no future. My legacy, memory of me to anyone has no value also, because every other self out there could care less that I even existed."
Is this what you are saying? If so, why?
Pointless if you have no purpose. Yes.
What's wrong with that? It's acceptance of the present aging process. Nothing more. You want to read more into through mystic reasoning, then feel free. You only do yourself harm, by negating self responsibility. Showing others you live with blinders on.
Existence is never irrelevant.
Maybe your life has no value? I don't know. My life has value, because it's purpose isn't about me and the meaning for my existence is in place. I'm sorry you think yourself to be low or of no value.
Yes, when you born you came with only bare body parts. When you die, you will leave what behind, that which, you leave with nothing?
Interesting. Too bad what you describe in the above statement doesn't actually occur, if one sets their own purpose of life.
This is foolish.
Well, that would be your own fault. No one else.
I think I cleared this up. I used enough words to explain it. Enjoy.
Well, that was weird, as you didn't really answer, just pulled apart my query and added a few sound bites.
Seriously, what value or purpose is relevant if the self has nothing to look forward to except the "I exist therefore I am" concept? Again, adding the no-gods required as reason enough to form the self worth concept.
In short what is the purpose of human existence? Just "to be" and make more "to be's"? This is where I am not seeing your position clearly.
Ironically that's all you saw. Not surprising.
Again, purpose in life gives meaning, which washes out "I exist therefore I am". Having a purpose beyond self is what is required. Thought that is what I said, but in other words. Oh well.
Self worth is achievable, it is the path to get to it, which is the problem.
Live life, be responsible. In other words, create your own purpose for living. Having a purpose beyond self, brings esteem and confidence, and eventually love for self. The actions will show others that you love and know how to love.
Well, hopefully this has been cleared up.
Somewhat. And thanks for doing so.
But this is the conclude I come to then:
Within this "life/existence" anyone can create, find, desire or "achieve" some form of this action (purpose). I think that is a given. However, without the application of purpose within, what is the actual Purpose of existence? To say humans are purposing to be a good human "just cuz", doesn't appear very rational, as one could aspire to not be a good person "just cuz" and be equally validated --as they are simply purposing their existence the same as any other and justifying their actions as their purpose in life. Human life, then, would actually have no purpose --since once the duration is complete (meaning you die) that purpose ends "forever". Whatever transpired between is ultimately irrelevant. Let's face it: you are not going to remember it, and there is no judgment or such things to look forward to AND equally, no one else will truly remember either, as they are going to not exist at some point, just as you or I.
If this is the case, what is so wrong then with people "believing" in a god? As it is pointless anyway, in spite of them purposing "to be" while they exist?
As said, they enter with nothing, leave the same. The in between really would not matter after all. That would make humans the equivalent of say a plant. Only difference --the human is conscious of that inevitability.
It provides people the opportunity to escape fear. Not to mention, the purpose would be higher than the human species, which would look upon the human species as nothing. Placing no value on actual living people.
Someone sets their purpose to serve a higher authority, then they are in essence, irresponsible about living life.
The in between is "how" you live eternally. You make an impact on the world, so you are remembered.
::It provides people the opportunity to escape fear.
I am of the mind to think believing in a god manifests more fear than anything else. (IMO).
:: Not to mention, the purpose would be higher than the human species, which would look upon the human species as nothing. Placing no value on actual living people.
But that is what you are saying anyway --humans are nothing without this 'purpose' in and of themselves.
:: Someone sets their purpose to serve a higher authority, then they are in essence, irresponsible about living life.
How so? The moral character of a human, who generally aspires to live a good life and better his/her fellow man, notes someone or something to answer to. They must have some acute form of responsibility, no? Else with no moral authority --accept to the self, we end up with anarchy.
:: The in between is "how" you live eternally. You make an impact on the world, so you are remembered.
So, the true purpose is ultimately to be remembered. But by who or what? I mean, like I said, everyone is in the same boat. It may take 10, 100, even 1,000 years, but eventually everyone will be forgotten...
I guess that depends on "what type" of fear? It varies from person to person.
Without a purpose, I would say that a person wouldn't be nothing, because even being a wasteful person is something, helps the human species grow, on a positive note.
Actually, one only has to answer to oneself. Hold oneself accountable. No other authority actually required. It's unfortunate, not many bother, much less know that they should. Being good is a choice.
Acute form? I would say that they understand being morally responsible. Sure. It shows that they understand morals, because their actions prove it.
I guess that would depend on the impact, now wouldn't it?
That's quite a comfy approach to someone born in America.
Now lets take your comfy approach and apply it to the rest of the world. Places less fortunate than your own country. Lets apply it to people who are addicted to alcohol or some other drug. Lets apply it to people who were abused as children. Lets apply it to the power hungry overlord who is obsessed with their self, costing others their own selves. Lets apply it to the starving dahlete in india who born into a 'cast system' and have no hope of upward mobility in society.
Your tidy wisdom really only applies to those who live in a nice set of circumstances.
Self buckles when faced with what it cannot control. Self gets desperate when it is hungry or cannot get air to breathe. Self want what others have and self will often connive to obtain what it desires in spite of any obstacles, if survival is in the forefront, survival for some is a limousine or a quick bank robbery.
Self is the trouble with mankind. This is why God seeks to override self.
A bit of my philosophy has always been, when I die if there is nothing, then what's to worry. If I find I still exist, then have to go from there.
And if the something that exists is something you are not prepared for... What if certain conducts or awareness are credentials?
What if someone owns it and you do not know them?
Have you been to a foreign land.. transgressed a law and could only plead ignorance and still wound up in jail? Couldn't speak the language.
This gamble is fine if apathy dictates the result.
Understanding God is easy, just read His instruction manual, the Bible. God is love and love is a wonderful quality in humans, even more so in Him.
Hi Hypehn - the point at hand is that you were taught to believe in the bible. If you were the only person on earth and picked up/read the bible, would you believe in the same things as you do today?
Actually, God being God, would never be limited to one book, or one idea especially any book that is so conflicting in its fearful teachings. It would be truly sad, for one to believe they truly do die...and are forgotten..only bodies can be destroyed...Are you not more than your body?
Hi - I have to come back to the intial purpose of this thread which is just to say I don't know. And I don't think anyone else knows either.
Will we ever know - I don't know.
You don't know what you are? Or who you are? Is that what you are saying?
No. I think I know who I am. I do believe there is a God but that we know nothing about God. That is how I started this thread.
Your points that it is about self and no need for a God do not mean there is no God.I don't know and neither do you, neither does anyone.
If life can be understood and life can be lived without a god, then it makes no sense to believe one exists.
fine, but then you agree that you just don't know?
fine, but then you agree that you just don't know?
Yes This Life can be lived without God, obviously... but the Next Life Cannot.
If all a person wants is This Life and what ThisLife has to offer than this 'diminished expectation theology' is perfect.
I have found the life that God offers is so much more abundantly rich and wonderful that my previous life paled in comparison.
I have not been taught by any religious organization. I have come to know this truth through my own investigations, readings, and studies. Religion and true Christianity are much different entities.
well the bible isn't clear cut - if it were, there wouldn't be so many different sects
The bible is written in such a way as to make people Seek Him. If it were all laid out like a childrens book, how would people then react? differently?
Personally i love the revelations, connecting scripture, discovering things. This is what keeps mankind entertained. The obvious becomes boring and the easy, tedious. But the challenge is what makes mankind, interested.
We can reverse engineer all that God has created and think ourselves wise, but of heavenly things? How are we to know.
This is why God makes us search him out. We are supposed to lean on him because the spirit is willing but the flesh is weak.
Then I guess everyone with an available Bible hit the spiritual jackpot, unlike those poor shlubs who lived before the Bible was written, assembled, translated, printed, distributed, etc. I guess God didn't care much for revealing anything to them, right?
I suspect that they WOULD react differently. If "God" spelled out clearly his intentions for mankind, you wouldn't have 35,000 different denominations of Christians arguing with each other over what the hell their text means. Really, what sense would it make for a loving parent to articulate clearly to their child exactly what is expected of them? That's airy-fairy New Age hokum. Next you'll be trying to feed us some ridiculous line like parents are supposed to protect and care for their children as well! Well I'm not about to stoop to that. Since I learned everything I need to know about parenting from Yahweh, I grant my 4-year old Free Will to decide to play in the street in the hope that she will be struck by the ice cream truck, just so I might awe her with my CPR, head-wound bandaging, and broken leg-setting skills.
That all sounds lovely BUT you miss a couple of points. Doctrine is not paramount. God does not work with people because they believe 100% spot on. God works with people because they believe in Him.
If we ask, ill repeat that because unless i spell this out right you might think i said something else... If we ask God, He will answer, eventually.
God could give all things right now and be done with everything in a matter of moments, but you might not have been born and neither would your or my life continue. Is that worth it? Yes, but i want my life and unborn people want theirs too. When all this is over it will be all too soon, but the next will be glorious also.
You will always get different beliefs no matter how clearly something is spelled out. This is human nature. All it takes are a few with comprehension problems or somebody to not like something and they change it or make an excuse why that doesn't work. Perhaps to your mind and our fleshly understandings being told clearly and succinctly works, but the things of God are not our ways. He strives to change people and make them dependant upon Him. This is why he does things the way he does. Why does he do that.. because the next phase of life will require all that He has taught us here.
You can tell your child not to do something and then later you may find yourself saying, i thought i told you not to do that. Adults know not to do things but still do. Learning, Gods way is not just hearing or reading, its experiencing.
I enjoy your simplicity of carnal thought but Gods ways are spiritual and intricate and yet, to Christians, simple.
Those poor schlubs who lived before the bible. Noah preached while he made the ark, i am sure adam had some things to say about the reality of God. IF you want to talk about the people way way off far over there, well if they have a genuine innocence about not knowing God then we suppose they are off the hook, but to partake of the eternal life that God offers, i will let God judge that.
If I am wrong, I apologize, but...
Are you saying that God allows bad things so he can rescue and have people be in awe of him?
I'm not saying that at all. I'm satirizing the Bible, which DOES say that about God. If there is a God, and He/She/It is loving, then I have no doubts that He would find such a practice abominable. I was being sarcastic to illustrate why I believe the Bible has as much to do with God as the Harry Potter books.
this lunatic read the bible. Seems he didn't get the hidden messages. That kind of violence is in the bible though
http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage/ne … stley.html
By their fruit you shall know them.
We have seen others in here whose agenda was to only publish the killings in the bible.. what was their motive?
This finger pointing avails nothing.
It all comes down to what are you/we/us doing with the message.
'so what' ??!?
you gloss over the murder and mayhem in the bible.
so, did king David have rotten fruit?
There are plenty of psychos for god out there that have murdered in god's name
Obviously some people can do no better huh. (just sayin)
I see the same things out there in the world that you do and i am not affected by them. I see people who are just wrong and when i see that i know its because their self is on their throne and they are not subjecting nor are subjected to God.
Its that plain and simple. I am amazed how idiotic these false preachers and disciples can be, perhaps a need to justify their own failings? I do not fully know, but i know that if i am to stay on the right track i need to seek God as often as is possible, not to say that i could do these same things regardless of my personal situation or even my childhood experiences. As i said before, God needs to teach, we need to listen. God needs to clean us up and we need to be obedient, if not, the person who fails to respond properly may well indeed become somewhat psychotic. As Paul said, "it is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God". Everything is in God, but what part of our selves or our lives do we not want God to touch? I cannot judge, but its a good example of what not to be like.
King David is amazing. He made some bad mistakes but he made some equally extravagant repentances. God said David is a man after my own heart. Yes, God, but David did this and that, he had a man killed for cryin out loud! But read how David repented and its this repentance that, I think, was seeking after Gods own heart. People have their shortcomings, idiosyncrasies. God punished David for killing Huzziah but God applauded David for his sincere repentance. David never repeated the incidents, unlike some christians, who repent and then do that thing again. David actually turned from his way. David made mistakes and David first coined the phrase, "against thee only (God) have i sinned", and when we look at sin from this angle we will be after Gods own heart and better Christians.
we have done the different sect thing before. the catholic church in India is not a completely different denomination than the catholic church in Italy, which is not a completely different denomination than the catholic church in Minnesota. Catholism is not christian at all and that lops a whack of denominations off the total... there are 123 different denoms and it goes something like this to name a few.. baptist, pentecostal, reform, Anglican etc.
I know people love to say there are 34,000 different denominations but it is just a wrong understanding of what makes a denomination.
If as a company i have offices in every state in america, i do not have 50 completely different companies, i have one company and 50 offices.
The more grounded one gets in God the less one becomes grounded in self.
I did not find this very interesting at all.
I suppose the whole world then should just stand idly by in anticipation of your next Formal Declarations as to which ideas you personally find interesting or not? And then even if one were to find it exceptionally interesting, we should scrap it in favor of your personal tastes?
The more grounded one gets in ANYTHING that isn't oneself leads to less grounding of oneself. This is hardly a revolutionary observation, but it might go far to explain why so many religionists appear to be grounded in mystical fantasy land. : )
Of course my statement did not go out into every facet of life where few absolutes reign without conflict. I said... God... and i meant to keep the discussion there. If you cannot discuss my post then please do not drag it to your fantasy land.
I'm sorry your feelings got hurt by having it pointed out to you that one of your observations wasn't quite a "deep" to the forum as it maybe sounded in your head. We can just talk about God for now.
i fail to see how you showed your point.
God some examples of peoples, umm, hobbies shall we say, how they do not elaborate on their self nature.
Are you saying because people study jung they are above their self nature?
is the doctor a doctor to help or pay the bills? What exactly was your point.
Aside from the first paragraph that shows your feelings are hurt and i skipped over... the second was out of context...
"And if the something that exists is something you are not prepared for." Yes had a Christian friend died not along and I don't think he was prepared.
"What if certain conducts or awareness are credentials?" Great line.
"This gamble is fine if apathy dictates the result." Me thinks your gamble is as great as mine.
"when I die if there is nothing, then what's to worry. If I find I still exist, then have to go from there.". Is a fall-back position and not necessarily the one I hold.
That sums it up pretty well pay2.
Curious to know if you are a "failed" religionist like myself?
None of us actually understand anything, so wasting time and effort on religion is very pointless. At least in my case. I have no use for it and all it does is cause conflict, so I choose to stray away from it.
So why waste our time on earth talking about something so pointless? Why not use that time to expand our technologies for the future to find some answers?
Why waste your own time by reading this thread and responding.
You people who claim that others waste your time are delusional,
no one can waste your time unless you let it happen.,
If believers lobby to get creationism taught in school or attempt to stop evolution from being taught in school, they are forcing that upon society and wasting everyone's time.
So, there are those who are indeed taking the time to make sure they don't "let it happen".
Oh, I've never done that and didn't know others did.
Evolution is certainly a fact. Anyone denying it is kind of...well you know.
Hugs and kisses
God exists whether you believe it or not.
And if you believe its all fantasy and nonsense ,why do people preaching or sharing about it cause you so much insecurity and/or evoke such strong feelings.
Is is not a case of the lady doth protest too much I wonder?
In this case, I think the protest is valid. Nobody who disbelieves in God gets equally offended at the idea of Santa or the Tooth Fairy, but then nobody's lobbying to get Christmas-Presents-Come-From-Santa taught in school...which would obviously be a supreme waste of time. The strong feelings come from the fact that religious people who can't demonstrate that any of their beliefs are true are trying to shove those belies down everyone else's throat. We would be equally strong in our opposition to any group of people lobbying to have the Stork Theory of where baby's come from taught in biology classes.
There's a reason why the US is constantly and increasingly lagging behind the rest of the developed nations in science: namely, they're either being taught religion instead of science in science classes, or else all their energy is going to fight against religion being taught in science classes instead of just learning science. We get pissed off when our kids are getting dumbed down and left behind over superstitious and ignorant people's belief system.
What does santa and the tooth fairy have to do with God? Santa and the tooth fairy are obviously man made inventions. To compare an obviously man made invention to God is just not right, its like saying that the paper clip is the same as a staple, which it is not (another version of oranges and apples comparison) the staple is far more effective than the paper clip.
As far as dumbing down goes. Thank your government, who realized that educating people was not in the governments best interest and economics couldn't support everyone earning 100 - 200 thousand per year and the baser jobs which really cause society to function would become undesirable in the light of higher paying jobs. Education is after all, how much one applies oneself to the problem.
Remember when phonics was part of the curriculum? Now its been taken out and is sold as a separate learn at home study. Phonics is integral to the english language.
You blame religion on dumbing down, thats a crock.
Yes, just like gods are inventions of men. Funny how you can't understand one invisible entity has just as much validity as another.
Nonsense. Your examples are fallacious. You are comparing two different things in reality that are completely unrelated. Your god, santa and the tooth fairy are all related; invisible entities.
And one could just as easily argue that God is too. There's as much evidence for either: none.
You're taking what I said out of context. I wasn't blaming religion on the dumbing down of every facet of the education system, I was blaming it specifically on America's increasing lagging behind other developed countries in science.
OK, show Him to us. No trickery, OK? Just validate your statement. Please show us why something that is only in your imagination exists.
No I asked God for proof and he answered believe in me...over time I did,that is exactly what I did ,I showed myself to be sincere and He revealed more and more.
I don't have to prove anything to anyone,why on earth do you think I have too?
I didnt expect anyone else to prove anything, I looked for myself ,because I was interested.
And it is exactly this mindset that allows such a proliferation of divergent religious models. Everybody claims they don't need any external validation to support their belief system, but that everyone else's belief system is invalid because it doesn't have external validation. What's good for the gander is good for the goose, no? Talk about the pot calling the kettle black!
Christians love telling every other religious group that they're wrong, and that they "know" this based on internal conviction (and nothing else), while telling those same people that they can't rely on internal conviction to determine the correct path to God.
Where did I say -My way was right for everyone
I think you have jumped to conclusions and maybe stereotyped me. (IMO)
I apologize if you have your own personal religion that allows for everyone else to be right. I was (wrongly?) assuming you were Christian, and thus held to the Christian tenet that the only way to God is through personal acceptance of Jesus Christ. Since this is what the Bible unequivocally teaches, a Christian must either renounce this teaching from Jesus himself, or embrace it and acknowledge that everyone else is wrong. Those are your only 2 options. (Or, I suppose you could argue that Jesus never really said this - that the Gospel writers interpolated it later - but that's a slippery slope to go down, as it calls into question the validity of everything in the Bible.)
Interesting thought though - what if archeologists discovered a new manuscript that refuted some of the bible teachings?
No you are correct.
I do identify as Christian and that no man comes to the Father except through Jesus.
That being said, I also accept that ALL people should have the freedom to choose their own path ,without fear nor prejuice from me or anyone else
But according to you that's not an option. If Jesus is the only path to God, then everyone opting for a different path has God and His punishment to fear (what is it about thought crimes that's eerily reminiscent of '1984?').
I don't think you see how your specific appeal to faith is just Special Pleading. You're making yourself an exception to the rule without explaining why you're an exception. You claim to "know" that Jesus is the only path to God - based on your internal convictions - but your internal convictions also dictate that anyone who is equally internally convicted about something else is just wrong. You are essentially arguing that internal conviction is invalid for everyone but you and people who agree with you. It's nice and polite of you to allow them to do this without you judging them, but it's still condescending to declare that you're right for reasons you claim aren't valid for others.
whether people choose christ or not is not an option but because of our stance on non offensive tactics to preach the bible, we don't bible bash.
The word witness is used as a noun in the bible and it stands for the idea of letting people watch our walk, and our lives not hear our door knocks.
The role of jesus is not our idea. God spoke it and we abide by it. If God had said, "all paths lead to me" we would abide by that, but God did not say that. God specifically said only Jesus. Again, not our idea. Godsaidit.
and i believe it, by virtue of the cross of christ alone. This significant detail/event must not be overlooked or undermined.
Hope this helped.
Again, not our idea but i (we) are fine with Jesus.
so then how is Jesus God if one needs to come to God thru Jesus?
What makes you think we 'protest' because it makes us insecure? Some people get emotional because of the amount of harm relgion does in some parts of the world, and many parts of America.
I agree that much evil has been done in the name of God.
I also believe evil has been committed because the person committing the atrocities had nothing but evil on his mind.
Equally much good has been achieved by believers and non-believers alike.
I conclude therefore that the heart of man can be desperately wicked.
The God I worship is all about love
It does show insecurity when anyone mocks,critises or disrespects another human in my opinion.
I agree with you Eaglekiwi, Insecurity is another word for fear and when people argue and insist they are right, they are in a state of fear..The wise person, doesn't continue to argue with them..but allows them to believe as they wish...and gives them only love!
I apologise ,you don't all protest ,that was a sweeping statement-sorry.
Many do in this forum however.
My point was ,why protest ,if in someones opinion it doesnt exist?
For example ,my neighbour thinks the purple elephants he prays too will give him peace and joy.
Do I worry myself about it??( believing purple elephants don't exist) -No!
Why dont I worry ?
Because what I dont believe exists ,cant ever hurt me!
That is very understandable.. God is not about forcing any religious beliefs, upon others..Its not about religion, its about listening to each other, and healing the illusions of separation that exist between all groups.. It is not loving and kind, to teach people that they are sinful, guilty and their going to hell..or that their bad.. People have been executed for the spiritual teachings. Jesus taught, that we are to love one another, and to love our enemy..and to forgive each other...Jesus was persecuted for teaching only love, and performing miracles of healing..but he never taught that he was a Victim nor did he believe in judging others. He understood, what others could not.. He did not come to establish a church, but to teach brotherly love..and he taught that death is not real...We are eternally spirit first, and we will always live, and everyone will eventually will go home..
Thor or Zeus? Which one?
Funny how believers forget so quickly and easily when it suits them.
Religions continue to do everything in their power to destroy mankind. Not protesting enough, actually.
Never did I say you or anyone else was wasting my time. I have no problem sacrificing my time to lend my thoughts. But to spend years of my life on religion would certainly have been a waste of my time. Along with many of the other things that I have done. There is nothing delusional about anything I said. And I am not apart of the "you people" group you so rudely put me in. I am my own person.
All of our time is being wasted and slowed and limited, and there is nothing I can do about it at this moment. So I really can care less, but as the world turns people will spend more time on their own lives and less time on religion. Although religion is good for some, it ultimately is causing massive amounts of conflict and is not needed for human-kind to prosper. I can go as far as to say religion is causing crime and for years has gotten millions upon millions of people killed.
So you didn't write this?
"None of us actually understand anything, so wasting time and effort on religion is very pointless".
Saying,"You people who claim" is rude?
And yet we who believe in God are called idiots, stupid, fools, religionists.
We are just finding out what Atoms are made out of. We are just finding out about our universe and solar system. We have technologies that are capable of finding out all of the secrets that have plagued our ancestors for millions of years. We can clearly see past the clouds to notice our praying is very insignificant. This interests and intrigues me much more than religion. I, however, NEVER tell anyone to stop believing and do think that religion is great for some people. Also in that same paragraph you quoted me on, it is clear that I say it is my opinion and that I am lending my opinion on the matter.
I love sports, it also is a very huge waste of time. You are just looking for a fight and taking everything I say out of context.
That is so true!! Our country was built on religious freedom...thats why the colonists broke away from England, because of religious persecution.. No one has to ever justify themselves to others.. Our forefathers found it perfectly acceptable to say God!! I feel compassion for those who don't believe in God, but thats their right!
Sir, You don't know me and I don't know you, but we all debate on these forums from time to time. I usually come here to share.
You SEEM, by your response to be over sensitive and easy to anger.
I asked you a simple question in response to a statement you made and now you're accusing me of wanting to fight.
I'll ask this time, Please don't accuse me of something based on your feeling and response.
If I had known that it doesn't take much for you to feel threatened I would have never responded.
But you did say we waste your time by writing about religion.
Here is where you said it.
"None of us actually understand anything, so wasting time and effort on religion is very pointless. At least in my case. I have no use for it and all it does is cause conflict, so I choose to stray away from it.
****So why waste our time on earth talking about something so pointless? Why not use that time to expand our technologies for the future to find some answers?"****
You said OUR so that includes you. We waste your time.
This is the link to your post.
http://hubpages.com/forum/topic/75308?p … ost1632533
And I responded
"Why waste your own time by reading this thread and responding.
You people who claim that others waste your time are delusional,
no one can waste your time unless you let it happen.,"
And here is the link to my post.
http://hubpages.com/forum/topic/75308?p … ost1632565
At first you got offend because I said "you people"
Link to your post
http://hubpages.com/forum/topic/75308?p … ost1632889
How vicious can I be to say "you people" How vile I am.
So you are an island and not part of any mode of people?
I am not religious, because: I believe in everything.
That includes evolution. If it's under the sun, I believe it. Of course I studied under the Jewish Priests in Savyon, Israel..so I am Jewish, but it doesn't waste my time.
I know how to read the scripture, the mysteries, the codes, everything and it's fun and I like to share what I get out of it.
You are being rude TO ME for some reason. So just skip over all my posts because I'm not going to stop posting I receive a lot of email from people, thanking me for the info. I give.
You're the one wanting to fight because of not being able to understand what I write.
You forget that you quoted me and took what I said out of context. I know nothing about you and when posting I was not posting to you originally. From that point on our conversation was already in shambles. You already had your opinion on what I think, but I surely did not explain myself thoroughly enough. But as far as I am concerned you have no reason to even try me. Because what I said was purely opinion, which does have a lot of merit to it. Since no one knows for sure what has created us.
You said this which is not out of context, It says what it says
"***So why waste our time on earth talking about something so pointless? Why not use that time to expand our technologies for the future to find some answers?"****"
I post spiritual comments and from scripture, so yes you were indirectly speaking to all of us who do.
You quoted that and didn't answer it, and still have little to no understanding of what I am talking about. Taking 1 sentence out of a whole paragraph makes the words have way less meaning. I will go ahead and let you think what you want, doesn't bother me in the least bit. I know what I said, and it does not match up with whatever you are trying to argue with me over.
Once again you fail to realize that my point is, not only is Religion a waste of time, but so is anything and everything we do. And that is a general statement. Other things including video games, sports, anything! What you spend your time is entirely up to you, and I have no right to change it. Unless you were a terrorist or a threat to people, which clearly is not the case.
Our understanding of the universe and atoms is growing exponentially, and from that standpoint it is clear we may or may not be able to find out something spiritual, or maybe we are just another bacteria that has a possibility to spread to different worlds and galaxies eventually. The possibilities are truly endless. With this being said I will repeat myself. The title of this thread is "Maybe None of Us Understand God" I was agreeing with this statement, we don't.
Instead of picking a fight, ask me to clarify and don't take 1 sentence out of context at a time.
I still don't know why non- believers go after believers with such venom. Isn't it sufficient to say no one "knows", but many people are comforted by their belief in a God. Doesn't concept of free will apply to all?
It does, and you're absolutely right. The problem is that the people non-believers go after so voraciously are those not content to let their personal beliefs be personal. It's the people who are trying to affect social, legal, and educational policies that effect EVERYONE that rub people the wrong way.
I was just reminded that prayer in the school was a normal event instituted without any hassle at all. It came from a time where the bible was very much more prevalently followed. The bible was a book read by people everywhere and God was something that people did not yell at nor harangue. The playing field of godliness was prevalent in society.
And now a few disgruntled people want it removed. So as not to offend these protestors against prayer in school, this abomination became a rule. Prayer was removed.
Squeaky, whiny wheel gets the grease eh.
Godless times? or just a few irritants?
Once again, you continue to forget about all the other religions in the world and only focus on your own personal religion, which you can't even find agreement with other believers.
It's hilarious to observe you butting heads with other Christians and then complain about prayers being removed from schools.
I appreciate that you envy me enough to talk when you have no idea what you are talking about in your misconstrued way. Its flattering, but really...
Christians will always be at odds. Pride is a big threat to Christians, scripture is designed to also keep us humble. There is so much to study and learn. I get to spend lots of time in the word and others do not. I question the standard beliefs as taught by the church, some have not. I tend to lean toward the side of caution, some walk the line... its all good though. I walk the walk for me and that is not the walk others should walk. Its a personal relationship and that's what makes it personal, its different for all.
Never seen an atheist on this forum attack so viciously and angrily as the Christians and Muslim do, actually. The atheists are pretty chilled out and just want to debate, but the theists seem to take even this as an insult and get very upset and angry.
I don't really agree. The non-believers are the ones who start name calling and denigrating the person for his beliefs.
That may be true in your experience, but it isn't in mine - and I read religious debates and discussions a lot.
Not really, Peter.
Most atheists attack the beliefs themselves. If a believer then takes up the cause and uses those beliefs to threaten others, that's a different story.
That's because you have only been here for 3 months. It is a lot better than it used to be.
People got so angry with each other, that many were banned over and over
God is defined as an infinite being. The human brain is finite.
Can god be understood by the human brain?
Can a finite number be divided by infinity?
Fear and superstition are the foundation of the creation of the concept: "gods."
Fear and superstition are eliminated by "education" and an acceptance of reality.
Logically then, if we could eliminate fear and superstition by "educating" all, the "illogical" concept: "god/s" should then, also, be eliminated.
Unfortunately, early childhood indoctrination frustrates the "indoctrinated's" ability to overpower pre-programmed response and then respond logically to reality.
The result of early childhood "brainwashing" can be demonstrated by understanding why a young person would strap a bomb to itself, walk into a crowded bistro with the intent of murdering innocent folk who do not believe in its illogical, preconceived concept of metaphysical reality, and push the button while screaming in praise of its imagined god.
The constituents all 3 major monotheistic groups are guilty of this type of abusive, early childhood indoctrination.
There is no possibility that in the lifetime of contemporary man, as he presently exists, that he can overcome the dire results of human immaturity and universal ignorance.
His "near future" is bleak.
Sometimes that theory is correct.
I can only speak for myself and dont see much point in generalising.
I dont love God because Im afraid of him or my future.
I love Him because He is ALL good
Can you define, for me, this "god thing" you speak of, in a form other than opinion?
If you can't, opinions are still only worth about a "dime-a-dozen," so, respectfully, don't bother to respond.
I'll accept your "silence" as the "fact" that you can only offer an opinion.
Have a great Tuesday. :
Qwark it is not up to you to tell me when to speak or even how to think.
Surely you are not trying to dictate.
Thats fine if you file my comments under opinion,but the fact is Im convinced ,and thats enough for now
I could also provide a long list of instances where I know God has manifested to me ,but what would be the point.
Those things are for edification (building up) not for tearing down.
I am equally sure you do not always speak fact Qwark ,but thats ok with me. Takes many trees to make a forest
The power of God is for all who seek Him with an open mind and an open heart.
But seriously ,do you want to find Him?
Lets assume you don't-then you wont find Him ,simple as that really.
To Your Best Life Qwark.
I don't think you read my comment with understanding.
Of course It "...is not up to you (me) to tell me when to speak or even how to think."
All I said was that if you could only offer an opinion, you need not provide an answer.
That's "dictating?" I think not.
Now, you made this comment which I think you didn't consider the meaning of before you posted it. Here it is:
"I could also provide a long list of instances where I know God has manifested to me...."
To "know" is to perceive (to become aware of something through the senses) exactly/totally.
If you could "KNOW" this god thing, you would be unique in that you would be capable of "knowing" that which cannot be known.
If you "KNEW" this "god thing," there'd be no reason you could only define it in the form of an opinion. You'd be able to define "it" and base your definition of "it" on "fact." You aren't able to do that.
You are correct when you say the I don't always speak, using fact.
In the case of you not "KNOWING" this god thing, I can post that as "fact" and you "KNOW" I'm right (that is if you speak and understand English.)
Do I want to find "Him?"
Who/what is "Him?"
Once you can define "Him" to me in a form other than your opinion and "it" becomes factual, sure! I'm always open to meeting reality square-in-the-face!
Pls Eagle, introduce me to the "reality" of "it."
The reality is staring you right in the face Qwark!
You ,me , we are the living reality of a Creator.
Our unique bodies ,biologically-Intelligently created.
Billion of inoformation contained in one egg or one spermatooza too small to be seen by the naked eye!
Is that not an amazing fact in itself?
The list is long and almost endless.
You needn't have answered.
Didn't I say that if all ya have is an opinion to offer me, don't bother?
Of course I did and for goodness sakes, that "Opinion" is nauseously trite.
Oh well, I guess, like you, I'll never KNOW "Him." :
Uhhh, qwark...being from another planet and all, I think DNA is more than Eagle's opinion. Mathematics proves the perfection of creation. Isn't that like blowing up a chicken ranch with an atomic bomb and ending up with Colonel Sanders
Why are you offering another opinion Druid?
"...the perfection of creation."
Perfect creation? That concept is far beyond my ability to consider.
Maybe I'm just not keeping up, but my impression has always been that "perfection" cannot be attained. Where did I get lost?
About "blowing up a chicken ranch?" I dunno I guess I'm just too logical to conceive of it and the possibility of the "Colonel Sanders" concept.
Golly! I guess I'm just an old lost soul spinning in a whirlpool of living, human idiocy.
DNA?DNA?...."god thing?" whew! I'm slowing down! you get the connection and I don't.
How the hell did you get here from "another planet?"
Damn! I'm losing it! :
Mathematics shows the perfection of the universe. Otherwise you wouldn't be able to predict anything. So if perfection is a concept you can't handle, stay away from math. And who here has a name from star trek...figured you must have just beamed down from DS9 or some such. I believe that the suggestion was that the miniaturization which produces every living thing is somewhat beyond the capabilities of Japanese Tech., even though they can make things really small...it must be those delicate little fingers. I wonder how they'd be making something really big. Ever wonder why what we see in the cosmos can be mirrored in something really tiny...amazing. Question of the day: If Darwins theory is absolutely accurate, then why do we still have an appendix, and just when can we expect not to have one?
"Mathematics shows the perfection of the universe."
Really? I'll be damned! The "universe is perfect!" Hmmmm? I don't think I can wrap my mind around that concept or that our understanding of math can provide proofs of any perfection.
I realize that "our" math does a pretty good job of explaining alot of things that exist in both the macro and micro worlds of reality...but "perfection?"
I guess I'm just an old infant in my crib trying to make sense of all my surroundings and it seems the more I know the more I realize just how ignorant I am!
Kind've an "Aristotelian" dejavu feeling.
Oh the old vestigial remnant appendix question.
Now I'll just accept the slow and tortuous movement of evolution and the processes of "natural selection" for that useless bodypart. Since we are rather complex organisms, we don't respond to our environments as quickly as do bacteria and virus.
Patience Druid. One day long after your and I have "passed," that ole appendix will just wither up and disappear.
That is of course if we humans last long enuf for "Mother Nature" to work her wonders.
I've written a hub about the possibility of another quantum existence:
If you are interested give it a read.
I've been here so long, I've forgotten the planet I was conceived on.
Mom and Dad whizzed in, dropped me off when I was a baby and disappeared.
I wish I could help ya on that one.
Perhaps I didnt post just for your eyes only Qwark
I am sure their are more curious minds out there too!
I hope the curious are also logical.
Logic and religion are at opposite ends of the "reality" continuum.
One day there may be an educated human population that, in toto, can live peacefully and in concert without a need for "fairytale" gods.
Gods which were created by human immaturity and naivety.
You and I won't be here so we have to cross our fingers and toes and "hope" that one day man may evolve to become a successful form of life.
There's nothing else we can do!
Que sara, sara! (spelling?)
Since the time I saw your comments on the forums you have posted the same statements, ideas, the same insults, the same put downs. The words are just rearranged.
So I'd like to ask: who are you trying to convince? Us or yourself?
Well thank goodness! At least you read well enuf to understand the intent of my "stuff."
Yes, I do re-arrange words well, don't'cha think? :
I'll clear this up for you so that you don't have to read and respond to my "stuff."
I am convinced that I am right about the immaturity, ignorance and naivety of believers in mythical god things.
I ask so often for a definition of this god thing ya'll tout, in a form other than opinion and all I get are "opinions."
Oh and ad hominem attack such as that which you just offered.
But I expect that from those of your religious ilk.
I'm never disappointed in your responses. I know exactly what I'll get. : You are all so predictable.
Thanks for the thoughtless, trite response.
After all the things you say, you have a lot of audacity to say I am argumentative.
I am very educated, believe in God and evolution. And I am logical.
Your conclusion that since you can't see it, it doesn't exist, is illogical.
I know what I have experienced and don't feel anyone has to prove it, especially not to you.
By the way...that was the first comment of yours that I've read in about 10 months. It just doesn't interest me. It's like eating a hamburger every day.
You claim to be an "educated" lady, yet, it seems to me, that you have difficulty understanding what I offer.
I have NEVER, not once asked for "proof" of this "supernatural divinity" you refer to.
I have asked for a definition of "it" in other than "opinion" and I NEVER get a response that "ISN'T" just an opinion.
You also refer to yourself as being "logical" in ref. to your religious bigotry.
My goodness Deborah, how can one be thought of as being a "thinker" who uses "logic" in making decisions, when one believes in an "abstract concept" that cannot be defined in any manner but opinion?
To an "educated" thinker, that would be "illogical."
I presume your "education" is a theological one. That would make sense to me. Your responses are based upon the "illogicity" of "jewish" indoctrination.
That is the basis of my comments that refer to those of your religious ilk as being trite and come as no surprise. they are expected.
Man is a predatory beast which is still in its infancy.
He is a genocidal, maniacal result of 4 billion yrs of evolution.
He has reached this level of survival because he is unique in his ability to understand and use guile to guarantee his viability.
Intrinsic to his survival, has been and still is,... "fear."
I have written hubs explaining mans need to create abstract concepts of supernatural divinities.
Those hubs would be beyond your limited ability to accept "logic" and reality because they offer the antithesis of your religious indoctrination.
I hope our species will one day mature to a stage of evolution where primitive "fears," which engender a need for mythical gods, has been eliminated by universal education and result in an honest desire and action to reach the culmination of mans indescribable abilities.
I understand, perfectly, why you respond as you do.
If you keep hitting your head against a brick wall and getting a sore head ,wouldnt the obvious ,no wait logical thing to do is STOP, or reaccess your thinking lol.
Christians equally are well used to the same ole insults and ignorant questions ,still we are encouraged always to give an account of our faith.
(If you dont accept that ,then thats fine with me)
That is why I do it,Im just unclear what your motive is.
"Im just unclear what your motive is."
You, being an "indoctrinated" believer in a mythical divinity, will never be able to understand the motive of a well reasoned and logical thought.
I guess that ends that. :
Oh thats not true Qwark.
I have a mind ,a brain.
If I dont understand something,perhaps you have failed to explain it adequately-just sayin
There is always two sides to every story.
Sometimes ,and this is OPINION ,people often get carried away with too many words and theories.
Would you agree that many good things in life are often very simple to see, and understand?
Have a great day !
Your relationship with your God is personal and it is my own opinion, that you understand God, if you use your standard of your own knowledge in GOD. Don't use your measure of understanding God and apply them to other people, and thus such you say that they don't understand GOD. It is subjective based upon the laws of each churches or your own personal relationship with GOD if you are a believer.
None of us has the ability to understand God. God is beyond our simple human understanding.
Nintendo is now the new opiate of the masses. It is said, To know yourself is to know God. Why do you suppose that was said? Know the psyche of mankind, and you will know the psyche of God. Why? Most of you probably have no clue what would terrify you to the point of death, nor do most of you know what would make you stand up and fight with no regard to your personal safety. Many probably don't even realize how much a product of your own mind you are, for no one sees you the way you see you. How do we really know if, while our own scientists are staring into a microscope at some one celled creature, if something beyond our perceptions isn't staring down through it's microscope at our cellular simplicity. Does physics or quantum mechanics rule it out? The answer is: It can't. Plain and simple. Science wants us to accept that they know what is or has happened billions of light years away and in the past when they aren't even sure what lies a mile beneath the waves at this very moment. Darwin equally can't explain why we still have an appendix, nor when we can expect not to.
According to the Jewish Tanakh
The Tanakh was revealed by God to the prophets of ancient Israel in Hebrew. Hebrew was not just the language of the ancient Israelites but the original language of all mankind and the language used by God himself during creation.
The eleventh chapter of the Book of Genesis says that before the sin of the Tower of Babel, "the entire earth was of one language" (Gen 11:1). As a result of the sin of Babel, "YHVH confused the language of all the earth" (Gen 11:9). Ever since then, mankind has been divided into innumerable nations, each with its own unique language incomprehensible to all others (Gen 11:7). The original pre-Babel language spoken by all mankind was the Hebrew language. This is evident from the origin of words and names described in the first ten chapters of Genesis, before the confusion of the languages. For example, Gen 2:23, says:
And Adam said, This time a bone from my bones and flesh from my flesh; this one shall be called woman because she was taken from man.
According to this, the Hebrew word for "woman" ISHAH comes from the Hebrew word for "man" ISH. In this particular example the derivation of the word seems to also work in English. The English word "woman" seems to derive from the English word for "man". However, there are many word and name derivations in the pre-Babel world which only work in Hebrew. For example, the first woman was called Eve, in Hebrew Chavah, because "she is the mother of every one who lives" (Gen 3:20). This explanation is based on the Hebrew word Chai, meaning "one who lives". Chavah (Eve) was given her name because she was the mother of every Chai (one who lives). Eve's name proves that Adam spoke Hebrew. If he had spoken English he might have called his wife "Livy" and said "she is the mother of every one who lives" but he called her Chavah because he spoke Hebrew.
There are many name explanations of this sort in the pre-Babel era. The name Cain was given because Eve said, "I created a man with YHVH" (Gen 4:1) based on the Hebrew word for "I created" (caniti). Lamech called his son Noah saying: "this one will comfort us" (Gen 5:29) based on the Hebrew word for "comfort" (nahem). Other examples are Abel, Seth, Shem, Ham, Japheth, and numerous others. Taken all together these names and the explanations given for them prove that Hebrew was the language before the flood.
YHVH himself used Hebrew when he created the world. On the first day he said in Hebrew yehi or "let there be light"; then he called the light by the Hebrew name yom ("day") and the darkness by the Hebrew name laila ("night"). When he created the first man out of the dust of the ground he called him Adam based on the Hebrew word for ground, adamah (Gen 2:7). Hebrew is not only the first language of mankind, it is a divine language used to create the universe.
You speaking with absolute conviction on topics like what language God spoke when creating the universe when noone was there to hear him is the perfect illustration of the absurdity of taking scripture and reading it like history. This is a story to demonstrate the involvement of the deity in the formation of all that is. It's not a newspaper account of the events that transpired. Being emotionally invested in something that noone could ever know segregates you into a tiny group of people so indoctrinated that they will never return to serious discussion.
You are a true believer, but you've lost the vast majority of people that have maintained a thread of connection to this world as well.
I know what scriptures are. But as a Jewish person we interpret scripture 4 different ways in order to understand it.
When I studied under the Priests in Israel they taught me these methods. Jews have studied scripture for a few thousand years.
People here read and cross reference and that's it, then act like they know scripture better than the Jews.
By the way It is part of the Jewish history and life. They use the Torah to set the city ordinances, every Judge has to be versed in it and it is part of the History taught in school.
Like I said the Jews have hidden writings never shared and regardless how old, it was passed down.
What I wrote came from the Tanakh, the Jewish Bible.
The Four(4) ways we interpret scripture
1. Interpret passages literally as the Word of God
2. Interpret passages as a historical document.
3. Interpret passages as midrash.
4. Interpret passages as folklore.
Why do you always feel no one can absolutely know something that others can't?
"Being emotionally invested in something that noone could ever know segregates you into a tiny group of people so indoctrinated that they will never return to serious discussion.
You are a true believer, but you've lost the vast majority of people that have maintained a thread of connection to this world as well."
I'm not emotionally vested. I have my certificate of semichah (Ordained as a Rabbi) in Jewish Mysticism
It was passed down from Prophets who obtained this info . I see you don't feel God still speaks to people.
I am not segregated. There's at least a million people who believe this way.
I am not indoctrinated, I sought it because I felt I was suppose to and I believe a lot of it.
But I am very eclectic. View my hubs and you'll see,
I believe in all things
I interpret the Jewish scriptures to show people a new way to look at it. It does not mean I am fanatical.
I posted it because this is a religious thread. I'll talk about recipes on another thread.
I am very capable of having a serious discussion
I haven't lost anything and certainly not a connection to the world. You're being ridiculous. I play a large role in society.
Why do you feel it is OK to insinuate I've let go of reality? (that is what you are saying even if you deny it)
You're slightly slanderous, don't you think. And since you only see me on the forums and no other aspect of my life there is no way you can come to a correct conclusion about me. If you say you can, I have to say you're the one who has lost it.
Let me be me and you be you. I haven't once told you that you are unacceptable..but now I have to say..you're pretty rude, because I didn't ask you to critique me
And what's your problem? I mean really what's it to you?
It's not a night to attack Deborah.
You few people are confused
You're not attacking my beliefs, you are attacking me. That's against the rules.
I believe in many things the Jews do not and they would not see me as a true believer
But you two know everything.
bad case of PMT? You seem to be biting a lot of heads off in this forum
Better read from the beginning. I am always nice until I am attacked.
I have read from the beginning.
When someone says something you disagree with, you twist it to make it a personal insult against your Jewish beliefs.
I couldn't care less whether you are jewish, christian, muslim, hindu.
You have illustrated throughout this thread an emotional reactivity when someone challenges your absolutism.
Goodness what made you feel you could say these things, and why is it your business?
We are suppose to stay on topic in these threads. This went from a statement about God to a criticism of Deborah
You really shouldn't say anything else to or about her
She's more level headed, and kinder than you
That guy the Bruce..says on one of his hubs that the idea of God is a wonderful concept. But because I know how to interpret scripture and share it on the forums, he says I am indoctrinated.
It was all because I posted something from the Jewish scriptures (And stated where it is from)
But he thinks I posted something I believe personally. He can't even see the allegory.
But, he's the judge, God left him in charge of me.
Here's why I say these things Joel. Deborah has become convinced that she has the obligation to inform the congregation here about scripture, because she knows how to interpret them correctly.
How can anyone make that statement with a straight face? Scripture is always an interpretive dance, and she may enjoy the foxtrot and another the waltz, but neither is the solemnly "correct" dance. This is arrogance, and it isn't teaching. It's faith.
Embrace your faith, everyone, but realize it is a step into an acceptance of the unknowable. God himself says so in Isaiah 55:8-9, and we should maintain our humility based on that.
"I'm right and that's why you should listen to me" is simply not very compelling. Every schoolyard bully has made the same argument.
Joel is my husband, you can't cause him to side with you. Scripture was written in Hebrew so I interpret in Hebrew. Knowing some Hebrew and knowing the allegories, euphemisms, helps so much in interpreting it. Many people skip over things they don't understand. Like eating the apple. Eating Christs flesh.
You think not but there is literally one meaning. unlike you believe it does not change depending on the person and his needs.
I don't know if you read the Bible or not, but it says Jews are his chosen people. I know why but I doubt you do because your mind is closed.
And scripture says if you bless Israel you'll be blessed, if you curse Israel you'll be cursed. It also says to pray fpr Israel. You don't mind if I do that do you?
I am offering info, not trying to reform.
If people want it there is no reason to tell me to stop.
You appear to dislike the Jews.
Many people send me emails requesting more info.
Are you playing the part of Satan..Hmm
Yup, that's me. Satan incarnate. Or is it you? Or Glen Beck? Or Jim Wallis?
It just depends on the indoctrinal path you have set yourself off on. You have gone down the road of traditional Hebrew argument and scripture, and it informs your every post. You may go astray from some doctrine, but it is the touchstone that you use to make all faith decisions.
That's great. Enjoy it. Let it bring you joy. But it isn't argument. It is faith, and by all means live it. Just don't imagine that because you have come to believe what you have, that anyone else is going to come to your conclusions because you say you have the gift of correct interpretation.
"You think not but there is literally one meaning. it unlike you believe does not change depending on the person and his needs." I wanted to comment on this but it was grammatically indecipherable, so I had to pass.
As for you praying for the chosen people of Israel, no I don't mind. I couldn't care a bit. That's great. But you have not made the case as for why anyone else should, other than you have accepted millenia old scripture as your touchstone for what you should do. The "Support Israel or Perish" crowd is simply not very compelling to me. It seems much more like a protective scare tactic, but if it works for you, pray away.
I don't care if Joel is your husband or whether I sway him one way or the other. I do care that he understands the issue that is being presented. His post indicated he didn't. That's all.
Far more intelligent, educated and influential people than you or I have advanced the idea that they held the interpretive insight into the mysteries of the universe and the presence or lack of a deity within it. You are in good company, and I have given them as much credence as I have you. That is to say, not none, but no more than I would anyone else who has cared enough to study it. I enjoy the information you bring to the posts, but have no use for your declarations of perfect interpretive insights. They bore me.
But I enjoy reading about what you believe.
Why you accuse me of being anti-semitic I don't understand. I am not suggesting anything about Jewish absolutism that I would not suggest about any other thought tradition.
You believe what you believe.
Stop telling me what to post. All you have to do is skip my posts. I don't agree with what you believe either, but I haven't got on the forums to bash you (yet, but if you keep on...)
I don't want to hear from you again
If Joel is my husband? no I made that up, I don't even know him.
You do know that I got that from the Jewish Tanakh and stated where it is from. It is not my writing or my personal beliefs.
It is allegory.
Can you see it or do I have to explain it.
Being emotionally invested in something that noone could ever know segregates you into a tiny group of people so indoctrinated that they will never return to serious discussion
Christianity is not based on emotions alone (in fact the Bible discourages it)...
I strongly disagree that Deborahs attitudes and facts fall within a small arena ,as you also imply.
You know, I seem to recall this same conflict by Parmenides and Heraclitus. The concept of Being. Not long after two Greek Philosophers, Leucippus and Democratus, developed the concept of atomic, thus separating the ideas of matter from spirit --from which came the foundation of pretty much all Western thought.
I believe it was Aristotle who organized the concepts, and certainly Galileo did what most could only imagine -he combined empirical knowledge with mathematics and formed a damn near perfect construct that gave birth to modern science. Even the Christian Churches could not argue with the evidence and so accepted it.
Later, Descartes would try to through a wrench into the machine with a very extreme ideology called the Cartesian Divide. Thus giving way to Western beliefs of Self, Isolated Ego, Mind over Matter.
Quite a contrast, and certainly proof of the duality (now turned Quality), to some primitive Eastern Constructs of:
A united human being, less the duality, is the knowing of Creator; for the human totality --body, mind and spirit-- encompasses, reflects, endures and proves the limitless nature and character of Creator.
So, can we know? Certainly.
Can we know by looking within our minds or thoughts? no.
Can we know by looking outwardly at the atomic systems? no.
Can we know by being a unified entity, drowning the duality --and its supercharger Quality? Yes in-deed-ee.
Spiritually there are always 3 parts working together:
And many of these discussions include either God or Jesus Christ.
The Holy Spirit is the bridge to God within you. It is the part of your mind—the part of your Spirit—that is joined with the Mind of God.
The Holy Spirit is the Voice for God and acts as a reminder to all of God's children of the unconditional love that God has for them.
I am under the guise that Spirit, which is the essence of Creator, is our spirit -- and that the power/knowledge is filtered through the mind (the tool; the mechanic) into the body.
It is all light.
Project, Absorb/Magnetic, Reflect
Positive, Neutral, Negate(Negative)
Proton, Neutron, Electron
Spiritual, Brain/Neurological, Physic/Physical
Rhema, Imrah, Logos
∴ R = e³n
Jesus is the light -Spirit the power (electric) to 'see' that light ( my anaology) lol
Folks this is the short story of Babylonian's take on Creation. For those who read the Bible does it sound anything like Genesis?
The Babylonian Story Of Creation
In the beginning, there was Chaos, a huge, boundless, watery mass. Apsu was the fresh water, and Tiamat was the salt water. Their children brought order to the world. Anu took charge of the heavens, Enlil ruled the air and later the earth, and Ea controlled the waters and the abyss that they believed surrounded the earth. Apsu and Tiamat plotted to destroy their revolutionary offspring. In the fierce struggle that ensued, Ea killed Apsu and laid the ancient deity to rest beneath the earth.
The earth rejoiced in its new order, and Ea returned to his temple at Eridu. There his son, the learned Marduk, was born. Yet, all was not well, for Tiamat raged within herself at the loss of Apsu. To avenge his death, she created an army of 11 horrible monsters, with the invincible Kingu as leader.
Ea summoned the gods to a banquet. As the music flowed, the question of how to defeat Tiamat arose. Young Marduk offered to meet Tiamat in hand-to-hand combat, but he had one condition. If he was successful, he was to have supreme authority over all the gods. Despite their eagerness to see Tiamat defeated, the gods decided to test Marduk's powers and commanded him to make a particular constellation of stars disappear and then reappear. When Marduk succeeded, the gods eagerly accepted this condition.
Armed with a net, the four winds, a thunderbolt, a storm, and weapons the gods had given him, Marduk snared Tiamat before she could use any of her magic powers. Tiamat opened her mouth to engulf the upstart god in flames, but Marduk filled her gaping jaws with one of the winds. As the wind rushed through Tiamat's form, swelling and distending it, Marduk pierced her swollen body with a spear and killed her. Chaos was dead, and order and organization reigned.
The world was ready to be created. Marduk stood above Tiamat's body and cut it in half. With one part, he made the vault of heaven; with the other, he created the earth.
The world again rejoiced in its new order. Then, the gods realized they needed people to sacrifice to them. After much discussion, Marduk summoned the imprisoned Kingu. From his blood, Marduk fashioned the human race. To express their gratitude for the gift of humans, the gods built a shrine and temple honoring Marduk (see page 26) at Babylon, Marduk's favorite site.
NOTE: This version of the creation tale is from Hammurabi's time (c. 1750 B.C.), when Marduk was worshiped as the chief god. It was found on the Seven Tablets of Creation, large portions of which are preserved in London's British Museum. As several tablets are broken, historians must make educated guesses about the missing text. (Similar cuneiform tablets are at right.)
By: Baker, Rosalie F., Calliope, Oct2006
Satan is the opposer not a being, the adversary. Anyone who wants to stop God's work, even if it is for just one person, plays the part of the Adversary.
This thread is about God, not bashing me or my beliefs
HubPages Forums: Rules of Conduct
Prohibited Use of Forums
We take these points very seriously. Be aware that you may be banned from HubPages if you are found in violation.
* Promoting Hubs or other sites: This includes linking to any site that you have a vested interest in promoting, especially using affiliate links. To be on safe side we recommend that you establish a presence in the HubPages community before you post any links in the forum.
* Signatures: Please do not sign your posts and especially do not sign your posts and include a link to another site. A link to your profile page is included with every post, and you can put information about yourself and links to sites you'd like to promote on your profile page.
* Making Personal Attacks: debate and disagreements on points of substance are all right, but personal attacks, petty bickering, and thread hijacking will be dealt with swiftly.
* Cross Posting: Please do not post the same message to more than one forum.
* Multiple Accounts: While we don't prohibit having more than one HubPages account, we ask that you stick to a single persona in the forums. The deceptive use of multiple accounts, especially in a single thread is prohibited. The use of secondary accounts to circumvent a forum ban is also prohibited.
The HubPages Discussion Forum is a resource for Hubbers to help each other achieve the most rewarding online publishing experience and to discuss topics of interest.
We encourage all Hubbers to use the Forum as an open space to:
* interact with each other in the spirit of cooperation and fun
* ask for and respond to calls for help and assistance with publishing on HubPages
* share advice and tips on how to create better Hubs and how to draw more visitors
* come up with ideas to make HubPages work better for everyone
* Discuss your favorite topics
The Discussion Forum will allow the community to complement each individual Hubber’s own talents and interests, to provide a living and growing repository for shared wisdom, mutual support and inspiration.
We ask that all Hubbers choosing to participate adhere to these guidelines, in order to maintain the kind of resource everyone will love using and feel comfortable participating in:
* Stick to the Topic: Please stay on the thread’s topic when replying to an existing thread. If you don’t see an open thread about something you’d like to discuss, please open a new thread.
* Respect:Please maintain respect for other Hubbers, even if you don’t necessarily agree with them. Keep your language clean and don’t make personal attacks.
* Be Helpful and Supportive: We’re all here to learn, so please be constructive when providing feedback.
* Spread the Word: Encourage Hubbers seeking help to visit the Forum to discuss.
I would absolutely agree that if there was a god (hypothetically) no one would be able to understand their qualities.
Yet the reality is that theists fail to provide convincing arguments for the existence of a deity. I'm sure most of our understanding of God comes from a monotheistic bias and that childhood conditioning is responsible for much God-belief.
The concept of God is not necessary for the universe to exist or in our daily lives.
Because Americans don't know the difference in Jew and Jewish and were calling all Jews Jewish (even the non-religious ones) The American courts passed a law that they are to be called Jews.
Might want to read about, if you can find it anywhere.
Perfect love casts out fear, if fear exists, then there is not perfect love. Believe this, and you will be free. Only God can establish the solution , and this faith is His gift.. The bible speaks of the peace of God which passeth understanding. "This peace is totally incapable of being shaken by errors of any kind. It denies the ability of anything not of God, to affect you. When the will is really free, it cannot mis create, because it recognizes only truth..God does not want us to react to errors, as if they are really true...some of us do understand what God teaches, and for those of us who do not, thats perfectly acceptable as well.
Perfect love is not conditional. All religious "love" is conditional, therefore it is not love in any shape or form.
No comments? I wish I could say I am surprised.
Religion has nothing to with ego.. God does not expect any of us to be perfect, in fact he wants us to be open minded about everything. and to be kind to those who practice whatever religion they believe in. One of the teachings by God is that whenever there's a win-loss situation, then thats the problem that needs to corrected. A problem will reoccur over and over again until everyone wins and the need to discredit or make them wrong is an error of the ego.. The need to hurts other, will result in a learning failure..forgive yourself, and others for what they have not done, is a profound teaching of spiritiual thought, and that Thought came from God
It was a monster. If you close your eyes and ignore monsters, they go away.
It was a monster wasn't it?
They all are, which is why we never get anything more logical than Goddunit in reply to logic.
If monster is trying to physically harm you, then I would recommend that you try to stop him from hurting him or you. I would suggest that you are much wiser than just closing your eyes.. I however would quickly send up a prayer to God for help, for the Wisdom, to know what to do...
And, when the monster is religion, what do we do, then?
Beelzedad, People are not going to give up their way of thinking, until they learn that their beliefs are pushing people away, and that usually comes through some sort of emotional pain..if they are radical enough about their religious beliefs, or any belief, it could get very dangerous, and incite people to violence.
It is not a 'way of thinking' - it is indoctrination, and yes, people do give up their indoctrinations and begin thinking.
Religions incite good people to commit violent acts in the name of their gods. They will kill and die for their beliefs. There have been many such claims right here on these forums.
I totally agree with you, and I knew that as a child, that indoctrination is wrong, people are brainwashed, as children, through methods of fear and punishment. Its amazing that, they never question, what they have been taught, but I did, despite the training that I had been given. To kill and die for their beliefs, is insanity, and its amazing that you would find that here on these forums!.
Tell me Beezle,what influenced ,indoctrinated you to think and behave the way you do?
...and then when everything turns out fine because monsters don't really exist, the believer will just claim God answered their prayers.
You are right. The Greek word agape, is unconditional love. The love like we have for Parents and children. All other love will fail.
But there are people vile enough to not even love even their family.
For anyone who wants to know:
And there came one that had escaped, and told Abram the Hebrew; for he dwelt in the plain of Mamre the Amorite, brother of Eshcol, and brother of Aner: and these were confederate with Abram.
He was a Hebrew. God promised Abraham he would be the God of Abraham, his childrens children to every generation everlasting. He did not say if they obey me and live by what I said.
A Jew is someone whose mother is a Jew and it has nothing to be with religion.
Now read this (which I did not write)
It may also be useful to mention the correct use of names for the people to whom the land was given by God. If we follow Biblical precedent, it is certainly correct to call them "Hebrews" from Abraham onwards (see Gen 14:13). The origin and scope of this name is very much debated among Old Testament scholars, but the Old Testament itself implies some connection with Eber, Abraham's ancestor (Gen 10:21-31; 11:14-26). "Israel" was the new name given by God to Jacob, Abraham's grandson (Gen 32:28; 43:6, etc), and so the descendants of Jacob are "Israelites" or, collectively, "Israel". In Exo 3:18 and 5:1-3 "Hebrews" and "Israel" appear to be used as synonymous terms (though if "Hebrews" indicates the descendants of Eber, then Hebrews were, strictly speaking, a much wider group than the tribes of Israel). As already mentioned, "Israel" also has a secondary and more specific meaning in the Old Testament, since it can signify the northern tribes as distinct from Judah, especially after the division of the kingdom.
Although the terms "Hebrew" and "Israelite" continued in use into the New Testament period (eg Rom 9:4; 2 Cor 11:22; Phil 3:5), by then the term "Jew" was more commonly used. This originally referred to a member of the southern tribe of Judah (which is it's use in Jer 32:12; 34:9), but after the Babylonian Exile it came to replace "Israelite" as the most widely-used term for one of God's covenant people.
By: John Bimson, author of "The Compact Handbook of Old Testament Life" (
No one has argued with a single thing you've posted here, Deborah. We're arguing with your assertion that the "Jews" used to own Babylon, which you've provided zip, zilch, zero, nada evidence for except to say that distant ancestors of the people eventually called Jews lived in the vicinity at some point. How this means they owned the entire place has yet to be explained.
Just curious. Why do you bother?
I honestly can't tell if she's just trolling (which is annoying), or if she's serious (which is amusing). I've made it my life's purpose for the month of May to get to the bottom of this.
passion i think is the answer,... its not to know a god but to know and understand passion,... this is what sets us apart,... we are the only creature on earth that we know of that grasps the concept of love, even when we fail at it misserably, we still understand it.
to say that religion is bad based on the notion that there are those who would kill in defence of it, is to say that politics are bad because wars are fought over political idiology,... the soviet style of comunism was as non religious as you could get... howd that work out?,...
the great in-justices wrought out of religious fervor are out-weighed by the great social strides that faith has brought to the human race,... we have hospitals, universities, charities,... we feed the poor, we heal the sick, we educate the illiterate.
politics can be called the scourge of human kind, but the wheels of social change through the political machine also bring us equal rights, human rights, and just wars fought to liberate the lives of others.
humans are willing to fight over things they are passionate about,... thier faith, thier country, thier family,... all of these things are loved or they would not be fought to the death over.
i realy dont care how one comes to know a god or undersatnd a god,... its a question that implies too much idle time,... the fact the the human race has seen fit to keep this concept alive and flourishing for thousands of years is proof that even if a god does not exist in a provable way,... humans need one,... and will creat one for ourselves,... therefore,.. god exists,.... done.
i know, i'll get beat up fr this, but be patient, i have dial up.
Here are 2 recent statements Deborah posted to the forum:
"I am always nice until someone attacks me."
"I am never going to be nice."
Perhaps this should shed some light as to why she's sorta all over the map.
Go back and read, I didn't call it "owned" until you did. I said something like. it was theirs. But anyway, haven't you ever heard of the Mesopotamia Jews?
From a third and fourth party plus the dictionary
The city of Babylon was the capital of the ancient land of Babylonia in southern Mesopotamia. It was situated on the Euphrates River about 50 miles south of modern Baghdad, just north of what is now the modern Iraqi town of al-Hillah.
The people who became the Hebrews originally lived in Mesopotamia. Later they moved to the land of Canaan (today's Israel)
Here what the dictionary says
Now remember I didn't half to look it up, except for you.
an ancient region of southwestern Asia in present-day Iraq, lying between the Tigris and Euphrates rivers. Its alluvial plains were the site of the civilizations of Akkad, Sumer, Babylonia, and Assyria.
In about 3500 BC, an ancient Semitic group of people, called the Sumerians (Hebrews) inhabited this land. The Sumerians, or Semites, were descendants of Shem, a son of Noah. After the Sumerian civilization fell, they were followed by the Assyrians, and later by the Babylonians to inhabit it. The Sumerians worshiped idols. Noah was the only one who obeyed God.
Now pay close attention so you can put the puzzle pieces together.
Earliest known inhabitants
The earliest known inhabitants of Mesopotamia were the Sumerians, whom the Bible refers to as the people of the "land of Shinar" (Gen 10:10). Sargon, from one of the Sumerian cities, united the people of Babylonia under his rule about 2300 B.C. Many scholars believe that Sargon might have been the same person as Nimrod (Gen 10:8).
Nimrod was the great-grandson of Noah. Noah was the tenth in descent from Adam.
Noah had three sons, Shem, Ham, and Japheth.
Abraham was related to Noah with 9 generations between them.
Samaria was the capital of the Kingdom of Israel
8. And Cush begat Nimrod: he began to be a mighty one in the earth.
9. He was a mighty hunter before the LORD: wherefore it is said, Even as Nimrod the mighty hunter before the LORD.
10. And the beginning of his kingdom was Babel, and Erech, and Accad, and Calneh, in the land of Shinar.
Genesis 8So the LORD scattered them abroad from thence upon the face of all the earth: and they left off to build the city.
9. Therefore is the name of it called Babel; because the LORD did there confound the language of all the earth: and from thence did the LORD scatter them abroad upon the face of all the earth.
Common since says:
Abraham was Hebrew (a Jew) Noah was his great, great, (9 greats) grandfather.
Noah was the great grandson of Nimrod/ Nimrod was the first to inhabit Babel.
It is referred to as Babylon for the rest of the time.
So the First inhabitants were Jews and the place was called Babel it Babel. Babel is Babylon.
No. They. Weren't. The ANCESTORS of the Jews may have first inhabited Babel. That's a given. TwentyOne Days pointing something out to the forum a couple pages back that you've neglected to mention this whole time. While you've been extry busy informing everyone who's a JEW and who isn't, you haven't yet DEFINED it, other than to say that it's a religion (which is only partially true - it's also a culture). What he pointed out is that a Jew was someone who followed the Law and was bound by the covenant of circumcision. This didn't happen prior to Abraham (the Covenant) and Moses (the Law), so no, no "Jews" were ever Mayor of Babel (or however you want to phrase it). And yes, you were the one who claimed they used to own it.
I did comment. Twenty one is wrong. He is a lot. He thinks he knows everything.
A Jew is a Nationality. Jewish is the religion. You can be an atheist and still be a Jew. But not Jewish.
I explained it in two places. The first one is in the post you said I copied (which I did). Because I said you would not believe me unless it came from a third party.
Your so anxious to put me down you're not reading all my posts.
Your argument was not that others occupied the land with them..you said they were not the first there. Don't twist it to make yourself look good I'll copy all your posts if you want me to.
Shane, my neighbors downstairs, in the houses to both my left and right would be out-n-out offended to be called Jews, and they are ALL right off the boat from Israel. All their wives, kids, grand kids are Israeli and so are their ancestors, the Nation of Israel, not the Nationality of Jews.
ps, if being Jewish is a nationality, than I suppose we can say Catholicism, Presbyterian and Greek Orthodox are Nationalities too. Even better, as I joke with my Israeli friends, we should have a BBQ and invite all the Hebrew Nationals
I think I told you in another forum that one of our very close friends here is Israeli - and he strongly disagrees with Deborah, as does my mom's entire Jewish family - so maybe I'm just surrounded by all the "wrong kind of Jews" or something? We're unanimously of the opinion that "Jew" and "Jewish" refer to the exact same thing, one simply substitutess usage based on the sentence structure. "I am Jewish" or "I am A Jew" mean the same thing.
If they're orthodox, are they allowed to play football? (what with the whole "touching the skin of a dead pig" injunction?)
That proves it then. My family living in Israel is wrong and the American courts are wrong. They have to be if his neighbors said it.
Thats why I post this message.
http://hubpages.com/forum/topic/75308?p … ost1635923
But pay2 said no one had argued that point with me
http://hubpages.com/forum/topic/75308?p … ost1636022
A little of what I posted before.
Although the terms "Hebrew" and "Israelite" continued in use into the New Testament period (eg Rom 9:4; 2 Cor 11:22; Phil 3:5), by then the term "Jew" was more commonly used. This originally referred to a member of the southern tribe of Judah (which is it's use in Jer 32:12; 34:9), but after the Babylonian Exile it came to replace "Israelite" as the most widely-used term for one of God's covenant people.
By: John Bimson, author of "The Compact Handbook of Old Testament Life"
Jew, Hebrew, Israelite which are all the same thing, a people with a mother that is Jew.
Jewish is the religion.
From a third party
Who is a Jew?
A Jew is any person whose mother was a Jew
It is important to note that being a Jew has nothing to do with what you believe or what you do. A person born to non-Jewish parents who has not undergone the formal process of conversion but who believes everything that Orthodox Jews believe and observes every law and custom of Judaism is still a non-Jew, even in the eyes of the most liberal movements of Judaism, and a person born to a Jewish mother who is an atheist and never practices the Jewish religion is still a Jew, even in the eyes of the ultra-Orthodox
Now I am tired of this.
Look it up
This is a good starting point: "A Jew is any person whose mother was a Jew," although it obviously begs the question since it becomes a matter of infinite regressions. At some point in time, someone had to become the FIRST Jew. And since he was the first, his mother obviously was not. How then did he become a Jew? The traditional answer is that it began with Abraham's covenant with God. What is YOUR answer?
"Who is a Jew" is one of those questions Jews themselves grapple with. Clearly.
I disagree with Deborah that Jew and Jewish are two different things. To me, they are the same. However, as she points out, if you're born a Jew (i.e. to a Jewish mother) or convert to Judaism (the religion), you will always be considered a Jew, even if you become an atheist. So, most Jews practice Judaism, but many do not; they are still Jews.
You also don't have to be born a Jew; you can convert and be considered 100% Jewish (and, by extension, if you're female, then your children are Jewish).
I realize that this does not fit with any "standard" notions along ethnic or religious lines, but this is how "being a Jew" works. It's like a family; you can join a family, but you can't leave it.
There are many Israelis who are not Jewish, but they would not call themselves "the Nation of Israel" which implies being Jewish.
And, yes, Orthodox Jews will not touch pigskin; there is an injunction against it in the Torah. Are footballs really made of it anymore?
Ortho Jews rarely play football. They rarely play any contact sport. ..prpbably stems from their Jewish mothers! Ha
As far as the gridirons ball. . NFL NFL footballs are not made out of pigskin, though I have read that at one time they were made of pig bladders, hence, pigskin.
Today footballs use vulcanized rubber for their inflatable inside and pebble like leather on the outside.
A Jew was defined as one whose mother was Jewish. But recently
I heard a Rabbi define a Jew as someone whose grandchildren are Jewish.
To quote Leonard Nimoy Nimoy on being a Jew he says
"Being Jewish is a gift, not a burden. I treasure that identity. It has been a source of the most important values of all: family, charity, wisdom, compassion, social justice, culture; those values that form the foundation of a civilized society. How can this heritage, this legacy of the Jewish experience, be anything but a treasure for its heirs today?
When I was a boy, there was a particular blessing used in our local shul (synagogue). The four fingers of each hand were split to create the Hebrew letter shin representing Shad-dai, the name of the Almighty. When we were creating the television program Star Trek, we needed a salute. I thought back to that hand symbol and proposed it. The rest, as they say, is history.
And Elie Wiesel says "I still believe that to be Jewish today means what it meant yesterday and a thousand years ago. It means for the Jew in me to seek fulfillment both as a Jew and as a human being. For a Jew, Judaism and humanity must go together.
What beautiful quotes!
And why am I not surprised that you were able to clear up the sports-related question?
Interesting about that rabbi's definition. Presumably if you follow the mitzvot, you would raise your child Jewishly and well enough so that they would understand that they would do the same.
In a related matter, Israel accepts anyone who had at least a Jewish grandparent for the purposes of immigration under the Law of Return, and this was ironically Hitler's definition. And it makes sense, too, when you consider that Israel was supposed to be a refuge for the world's Jews.
I think so too, that we really do not understand God, but how many of us even understand ourselves? Food for thought...
It's impossible to convince someone of a spiritual truth they are unwilling or more pointedly incapable of recognizing, by talking. Being darkened in their unstanding, they replaced the truth for a lie and worshipped the creation not the creator.
Words alone convince no one of anything. If a persons understanding of life and the universe encompasses nothing more than their own existence in a one dimensional world, words alone cannot persuade them, having decided they will not be swayed by anything other than self.
by Mrs Campbell 7 years ago
Stephen Hawking has proclaimed God did not create the universe, so, does that mean there is no God?no God?
by Elizabeth 2 years ago
To what degree are we actually able to choose our beliefs or lack thereof?I've often been told that I should choose this religion or that faith or choose to believe in something rather than not, but I don't necessarily think beliefs are an active choice. You cannot choose to disbelieve...
by Ashantina 7 years ago
If you could change anything about the way you were raised, what would it be?
by Lorena Gonzalez 2 years ago
For all the religious people out there, show your arguments: Why should one stop being an atheist?
by amine sehibi 2 years ago
What are the most common and logically acceptable arguments atheists use against God's existence?I'm doing a research and require some tough-atheists's arguments that they use against God's existence, all arguments need to be objective, logically acceptable and valid. thanks
by pgrundy 9 years ago
Got up this morning to this unbelievable racket that sounded like about 100 crows. It's twelve hours later and they are still at it. As near as I can tell, it isn't 100 after all, it's just a few, and they seem to be stationed in a tree in our yard (right next to the bedroom). I walked under it and...
Copyright © 2018 HubPages Inc. and respective owners. Other product and company names shown may be trademarks of their respective owners. HubPages® is a registered Service Mark of HubPages, Inc. HubPages and Hubbers (authors) may earn revenue on this page based on affiliate relationships and advertisements with partners including Amazon, Google, and others.
|HubPages Device ID||This is used to identify particular browsers or devices when the access the service, and is used for security reasons.|
|Login||This is necessary to sign in to the HubPages Service.|
|HubPages Traffic Pixel||This is used to collect data on traffic to articles and other pages on our site. Unless you are signed in to a HubPages account, all personally identifiable information is anonymized.|
|Remarketing Pixels||We may use remarketing pixels from advertising networks such as Google AdWords, Bing Ads, and Facebook in order to advertise the HubPages Service to people that have visited our sites.|
|Conversion Tracking Pixels||We may use conversion tracking pixels from advertising networks such as Google AdWords, Bing Ads, and Facebook in order to identify when an advertisement has successfully resulted in the desired action, such as signing up for the HubPages Service or publishing an article on the HubPages Service.|