If more people followed the acts and teachings of Jesus Christ the world would be a much better place, but people want to doubt and argue. It's neat how all religions point to some type of God they worship, BUT Jesus is the ONLY way to heaven. People just want to hear what they want to hear. As Christians we should stand together and live our lives in a way that non believers would want to take part in instead of pushing them away. There are people out there that if shown the right direction would be along with us fighting in the army of God. This lifestyle is NOT an easy one, far from it, Jesus will come like a thief in the night, our job is to get people ready!! What else are we here for? NOTHING!! We are witnesses, to lead people to God & if we only direct one soul to Christ in our lifetime, that's one soul the devil did not get!
"If more people followed the acts and teachings of Jesus Christ the world would be a much better place, but people want to doubt and argue."
Actually, if everyone followed the beliefs of Jesus Christ, the religion would stagnate. Growth is necessary because followers of Christ do not live in the same world that we did 2011 years ago.
"It's neat how all religions point to some type of God they worship, BUT Jesus is the ONLY way to heaven."
Yes, but heaven is not the only possible afterlife. Everyone's religious beliefs in the after life are equally possible and valid. We won't know until we are dead.
People just want to hear what they want to hear.
Yes. On both sides of the fence.
As Christians we should stand together and live our lives in a way that non believers would want to take part in instead of pushing them away.
Okay, I agree with that.
"There are people out there that if shown the right direction would be along with us fighting in the army of God."
The "Army of God" is not really congruent with your last statement. Its kind of scary actually.
"This lifestyle is NOT an easy one, far from it, Jesus will come like a thief in the night, our job is to get people ready!!"
Yeah, thief in the night really isn't a good image for me either. I'll just worry about getting myself ready. Free-will and all.
"What else are we here for? NOTHING!! We are witnesses, to lead people to God & if we only direct one soul to Christ in our lifetime, that's one soul the devil did not get!"
Trying to direct myself. I would have no idea how to direct someone else without infringing on that whole "free will" thing. I suppose I've always thought I was here to learn and to try and do good for others. I'm not even close to being perfect at that, so I'll go ahead and work on that for now.
I'm of a different religion entirely but agree with you on every point: every religion needs to evolve, no one knows if an afterlife exists and if it does what form it is, we should all set a good example but ultimately it's a personal choice about how we lead our lives, etc.
Just out of curiosity, what is your religion?
Nothing personal, but on both sides of the debate, I see alot of vanity,arrogance,and self-rightousness. Just my opinion, but how did so many get so smart and yet noone agrees?
Really? Making a rational, reasonable argument and having a calm discussion is being self-righteous? How so?
You don't think that burning people for eternity in a lake of fire because they do not believe is psychopathic behavior?
You do realize that not all Christians believe that right?
I am well aware there are 40,000 odd different cults that believe different things - yes. I think the majority believe in a fiery hell though - and certainly Pascal's wager relies on it. No eternal damnation - not much point to making the bet is there?
LMAO, Again... So soon?
Ok Then using the phrase "your psychopathic deity" in relation to my religion is false as the particular deity I believe in doesn't really like all that fire stuff.
Pascals wager relies on both sides of the coin- gain heaven, avoid hell. Since I didn't know him personally, I don't know which one was most important to him.
Heaven without a hell doesn't make a lot of sense in the context of the Christian religion. So - either you have made up your own version - I get mine from the bible - or you are not actually a christian.
My personal belief system is influenced by more than the bible, it is the nature of my religion. In addition, my interpretation of the bible is mine, as your interpretation was yours. I never really stood by the "I read it, and this is what it says" methodology of Bible Study. Thirdly, while the Bible is a very very Holy Book, it was indeed written by man. The writer always corrupts the message.
I am, however, a UU. We may be the red-headed stepchildren of the Christian Evangelists but they are still forced to recognize us as at least nominally Christian. In short, I believe in Christ, therefore I am a Christian. Other specific beliefs may need to be addressed separately.
No. You are a UU - whatever that is - I am not familiar with all the cults. This is not Christianity. The bible is pretty clear on lots of things - one of which is the concept of unforgivable sin.
You do not believe in Christ to become a Christian. You become Christ by nailing your ego to a Cross. Like all the other cults - you do not understand that it only applies internally. You think it is external. Once you become Christ internally, your external behavior would reflect this.
I have never met a genuine Christian.
How do you define a cult? Like the kind that sacrifice things to the devil? Or have children as wives?
You defend the bible well- perhaps you believe in it? Or should?
wow, that last paragraph I didn't understand.
Ohh, sorry you never met a genuine Christian,,, hmm so sad. Must be why you pretend there's no God.
If people have certain beliefs because of their own understanding of something they have read, or a doctrine they have been taught, it does not make their understanding the correct one. The truth is, no one really knows. I personally believe it would be foolish to claim knowledge with certainty on either side of the debate. This is where the concept of faith plays a vital role on the side of monotheism. Yet the believer still cannot claim absolute proof. Nor can the atheist. I don't believe human beings are even a fraction as smart as we think we are. When we die, then we will know. Until then, it's all just guessing, and to claim any factual knowledge on the topic, to me, is misleading and arrogant.
You're just upset because you're afraid it's true
Other than the brief breakdown, I have to agree. Debate isn't kissing each others asses and it shouldn't be. If no one is actually calling names or personally attacking then saying "I believe you are wrong because:" is actually pretty healthy.
Oh, but calling someone irrational over and over because they don't agree..isn't that like saying they have lost their brain, don't have one, are in a coma?
Sorry you do not understand the term "rational" - oh well.
From a certain point of view... if you are insulted by opposing opinions-even when not stated politely-- is a sign of weak belief.
When baited, if you become emotional, it proves lack of reasonable thinking. Since that is what -I believe- he trying to prove in the first place it is a very rapid way to win an argument.
Because one set follows belief in the FLESH)(what they see, feel and hear),and the other set believes in FAITH ,what they believe has been done (Jesus dying on the cross) and to come ,ressurection.
(My opinion /understanding)
Lol ,but you are right ,nobody knows it all.
Not looking for a fight. And yes I'm a Christian. But I believe peoples relationship, or lack there of, with God is between them and God. I do not try to shove my faith down other peoples throat. I LOVE a good debate. Yet I am not into arguing at all. Its unproductive and creates disunity.
Yet you entered this discussion calling us arrogant and self righteous. And then failed to back your statement up with anything other than unrelated drivel. I knew you were a Christian from that attack alone.
I saw it as debating. *shrugs* Opinions were passed back and forth and I, at least, was forced to look at my beliefs in a different way. If someone is willing to discuss, it is unnecessary that they change their viewpoints or expect me to change mine. But lack of debate, especially on totally polar viewpoints is what leads to wars.
Unitarian Universalist I believe is what it stands.
I met a woman once who I referred to as a HSWLG
Human Sacrifice-Worthy Love Goddess
I would suggest that polar viewpoints in conflict under the guise of debate is what causes wars. Maybe?
Then they shouldn't debate with false pretenses and hidden agendas.
That if you enter debate with the intention of sharing your opinion but not receiving the other's side then you are not debating... you are preaching. Preaching is great, if you have an audience that agrees with you... It has no place in conversation however.
Wars don't start when two sides don't agree, they start when one or both sides tries to force an agreement.
"No. You are a UU - whatever that is - I am not familiar with all the cults. This is not Christianity. The bible is pretty clear on lots of things - one of which is the concept of unforgivable sin.
You do not believe in Christ to become a Christian. You become Christ by nailing your ego to a Cross. Like all the other cults - you do not understand that it only applies internally. You think it is external."
Unitarian Universalist. And you aren't the first to call us a cult-other Christians do it all the time. Although corrupt liberals is the more likely phrase. And yes, I probably did nail my ego to a cross, which is good for me personally as I was trying to get rid of it anyway. It keeps coming back, I keep renailing it. As far as it not applying externally, you couldn't be farther from my personal beliefs.
All religions are cults as far as I am concerned. Hard to say which is worst.
I know - all your self professed Christians think this Christ thing is an external being. You are wrong. It is an aspect of yourself. None of you seem to understand this. And - you would not be here arguing about religion if you had actually applied this internally.
Like I said - I have never met a genuine Christian. I have only met self professed cult followers who call themselves Christians.
But I'm a Christian and I agree with you. It is internal and a part of me.
If that were true, you would not going attacking people and calling them self righteous and arrogant and the making passive aggressive suggestions that they are liars. Ergo - you are fooling yourself in order to claim some sort of superiority.
If you had actually applied it internally, you would be ego-less.
You clearly are not.
You are right. It seems I became what I was suggesting of others. Not my intention to imply that anyone was a liar. My apologies. Sincerely. I am still human myself, and include myself in my earlier statement that humans are not as smart as we think we are. I stand corrected, and I'm sorry.
No, actually I understand it completely. Christ is the personification of what I aspire to... forgiveness, love, compassion, service, understanding I will never reach the goal but I can strive towards it. So yes, he is-for me-the aspect of myself that wishes to be better. I don't really have an external expectation of him.
What's a cult? Can you back up your statement? Is for example going to a Christian church the same as some "cult" who marry little children or worship satan and abuse animals? Are these all "cults" ?
Again, I tell you, you're here, trying to prove your point to make yourself feel better, because deep down your not 100% sure...you never knew a true Christian you say...but you know the bible...You are so adamant in pushing your opinion because deep inside you're scared and you want to pretend you're right.
Not at all. I am simply pointing out the conflicts your beliefs cause because you 1. don't actually believe, 2. don't demonstrate the traits you claim and 3, your beliefs make you behave irrationally - because they are irrational.
The fact that you do not understand what constitutes rational is really down to your belief system. I am right. Just read any history book to see how much conflict this belief causes. You are behaving irrationally. You are fighting for Jesus. You are not really making any sense here. I suggest - and I mean this kindly - visiting a mental health professional, because this is not rational behavior.
I am pushing my opinion - yes. Sorry that it bothers you that I am honest. Should I just shut up and let religious people write all the laws like they did in the past? Maybe make it illegal for me to get a divorce again? Perhaps make sodomy and oral sex illegal again? Bring back slavery? Like the bible says? Just look back at the laws religious zealots like yourself wrote.
Your beliefs are irrational. Not only that - they are nonsense as well. As has been pointed out to you by some one else - they are also selfish and destructive - both to you personally and society in general. Why should I not seek to stop people like you damaging others? You do not keep these nonsensical beliefs to yourself like you should. These "Personal Relationships" with an Invisible Super Being should be kept private. It is a mental health issue that needs to be dealt with.
Well, my dear EG, I understand the belief of Evolution, and your points on bringing back the illegalness of divorce or oral sex are valid, I certainly like oral sex, but that's not the point, You don't know me, personally, and if you read my hubs you'd know some, and I have dealt with professionals and continue to do so, but Christian beliefs are not an illness in themselves. Also further point is, that to have depression takes more strength mentally than the average opinion , IMO, because it take tremendous strength to get thru it in one piece, but that's for another thread or forum at another time. I'm very open about my depression in my hubs, and FYI many intelligent actors, comedians, and Abraham Lincoln had/have depression! So did Professor John Nash who won the Nobel peace prize as well as Albert Einstein, so I wouldn't go bashing people with depression just yet.
God bless you
We all “climbing” the same “mountain” The pick of the mountain (God) is One… but there different ways to reach it. So, it is up to every individual to choose his/her path in how to reach it. And there is no harm in searching the “best” (not necessary easy) way to do it. One wise man sad ones:
“The Reality of the divine Religions is one, because the Reality is one and cannot be two. All the prophets are united in their message, and unshaken. They are like the sun; in different seasons they ascend from different rising points on the horizon. Therefore every ancient prophet gave the glad tidings of the future, and every future has accepted the past. (Abdu'l-Baha)
Or one more that I like: “…Religion is the chief foundation of Love and Unity and the cause of Oneness. If a religion become the cause of hatred and disharmony, it would be better that it should not exist. To be without such a religion is better than to be with it. (Abdu'l-Baha)
Evolution Guy- Might I ask what you think about a Christian belief in God that is based in a connection of spiritual AND scientific principles?
Please show me this "spirituality". My experience of spirituality is that it is an entirely internal, subjective thing. 100% absolutely nothing external other than the empathic connections that can be made internally.
No scientific principles can support the existence of the Christian god because the Christian external god is supposed to exist outside of reason, logic and - crucially - existence. He was there before existence was created according to the christian religion. This is why the Christian personal god cannot and does not exist - because this is not possible.
Ok, if you want to question as I attempt this, please feel free. Scientific law (physics) states that EVERYTHING at it's base is energy. I believe God is a spirit. My understanding of a spirit is concious energy. All energy is connected. So we are a part of God and God is a part of us. God, being the Creator, created all this with energy useing scientific law. Physics. He made man in His image, hence we are creators. Our thoughts, words, and actions create our reality because these things focus our energies in the process of creation. This practice is evident in such spiritual laws such as the golden rule. Do unto others as you would have them do to you. Karma, what goes around comes around, and when Jesus said say to this mountain be removed into the sea and but believe, and it will be so. Positive attitudes invoke positive life styles and negative attitudes invoke negative lifestyles. Comments, questions?
This is not the Christian, bible based belief. Everything is based on energy. Measurable energy. Your "spirit" is not measurable. It is not energy - otherwise you could show it to me. Science deals with physical reality only. Not "spirits".
What goes around does not come around. Life is unfair. Life is dirty and dangerous and scary and fun and the fact that I choose to do unto others will not bring that back to me. I still stand the same chance of being hit by a bolt of lightening as I did yesterday when I was being nasty to some one.
You cannot reconcile science with the christian god. Look at you - you are redefining it in an attempt to defend your belief. So you do not believe in the Christian god - you just made a new one up. You are not a Christian.
Yes I'm a Christian. My belief that Jesus is the Son of the Living God and that without Christs shedding of blood on the cross, I'm a lost soul is what makes me a Christian. And yes you can measure energy, but that does not mean we have figured out how to measure all aspects of energy. Also, when I talk about things coming back on someone, I'm not restricting it to something like a bolt of lightning. I,m more inclined towards the giving of self in many different aspects draws more energy towards you. Possibly even in simple forms such as more people. If a person looks at the bigger picture in the Christian faith, I think we mistake what can be perceived as good or bad things that happen to us. And I dont believe I,m redefining it. Although I came upon some of my beliefs reading in different venues, I can give scipture to back all of it. And yes I know, personal interpretation and all, but let me ask. Which is better? Personal interpretation thats studied and compared with other religions, or endoctrination and relying on others to teach?
Neither. The irrational belief in an Invisible Super Being causes nothing but conflicts and argument. They are both needless failed systems that have shown time and time again to do nothing but create friction and control.
I am not really interested in how you twisted what the bible says to determine your belief system. You are not a Christian. Mind you - neither are all the other self-professed Christians - so you are not alone. This is why there are thousands of denominations and wars have been fought.
But - I have a question or two for you.
As this is simply your own personal belief system and it in no way matches with scientific knowledge and understanding. Why are you trying to prove it with science? Do you simply not understand that science deals solely with physical reality and has nothing to do with invisible, undetectable "spirits"?
Because I am getting mixed messages here. First you say it is all internal. Then you claim to have some science to back it up. Then you say some nonsense about Jesus being the Son of The Living God and shedding blood and because you believe this nonsense you are a real Christian.
See - this is my issue with your irrational belief system. You don't do any work. You don't look inside. No attempt is made to become like Jesus. No introspection is done. No personal development is made. All you do is say the majik words and then fight about your beliefs. No offense - you all do it.
Do you genuinely not see the contradictions in your statements? Do you honestly think this is a rational thought train?
If what you say is true, than we would not be alive today, because " Life is unfair. Life is dirty and dangerous and scary .."
So with out a supreme being we should definitely be all dead because we all could've been "hit by lightning" or killed in earthquakes and melted by volcanos, if there's no being keeping us alive, then by what you say that life is dirty and dangerous and scary...there's no way we should be here.
No wonder ur religion causes so many wars.LKOLOLO
Majik Jeebus dunnit huh?
What does that have to do with this?
Just pointing out that you speak nonsense and demonstrating what it sounds like to others who do not believe the garbage you believe.
Sorry you do not understand because you are a religionist.
Based on this definition:
1. The Christian religion, founded on the life and teachings of Jesus.
2. Christians as a group; Christendom.
3. The state or fact of being a Christian.
4. pl. Chris·ti·an·i·ties A particular form or sect of the Christian religion: the Christianities of antiquity.
"Neither. The irrational belief in an Invisible Super Being causes nothing but conflicts and argument" "They are both needless failed systems that have shown time and time again to do nothing but create friction and control"
I am giving you one example of Christianity leading to the creation of something that is neither. Please answer on point
"I am not really interested in how you twisted what the bible says to determine your belief system. You are not a Christian. Mind you - neither are all the other self-professed Christians - so you are not alone. This is why there are thousands of denominations and wars have been fought."
Given the definition above- If faith is based on the life of Jesus, then the faith is Christian. Concede point or give different working definition. It helps if we are all on the same page.
To address the last sentence-different denominations within religion, at the base, are equivalent to different branches of science in as far as the differnent studies can, but do not necessarily contradict the other. In addition, wars have been fought for many reasons. Boundary disputes, for example, have led to a great number of wars. This does not, I hope, mean that you advocate for the removal of all boundaries. Please answer on point
As this is simply your own personal belief system and it in no way matches with scientific knowledge and understanding.
Point conceded. Apples and Oranges.
Why are you trying to prove it with science? Do you simply not understand that science deals solely with physical reality and has nothing to do with invisible, undetectable "spirits"?
Point somewhat conceded. Science regularly deals with the invisible and undetectable. As far as "spirits" go, definition is needed. If we are talking about "God" well science has attempted to deal with it but -as you say- the scientific system is ill-suited to the study.
"Because I am getting mixed messages here. First you say it is all internal. Then you claim to have some science to back it up"
I did say it was internal. The rest is addressed by quote only as it doesn't apply to my arguments. Just letting you know I'm not ignoring it
Then you say some nonsense about Jesus being the Son of The Living God and shedding blood and because you believe this nonsense you are a real Christian.
According to the above definition, yes he is. Concede point or give different working definition.
See - this is my issue with your irrational belief system. You don't do any work. You don't look inside. No attempt is made to become like Jesus. No introspection is done. No personal development is made. All you do is say the majik words and then fight about your beliefs.
This seems to be in direct conflict with my statement of :
"No, actually I understand it completely. Christ is the personification of what I aspire to... forgiveness, love, compassion, service, understanding I will never reach the goal but I can strive towards it. So yes, he is-for me-the aspect of myself that wishes to be better. I don't really have an external expectation of him."
The burden of proof lies with you here. Either concede point or prove that I don't feel that way.
"No offense - you all do it."
You have not met and studied the action of every christian ever so this statement is unprovable. Concede point or provide proof of this exhaustive study.
Do you genuinely not see the contradictions in your statements? Do you honestly think this is a rational thought train?
Addressed by quote only as the questions were personal and addressed, I believe, to Danny.
Just didn't want you thinking I ignored them.
The Sistene chapel is beautiful. It is one of my favorite places on earth. I was there last year when I had a guided tour of the private areas of the Vatican. If anything were to sway me - this is it. Until I consider the cost.
How many murders is it worth? The only reason it was built is because Pope Julius II was raping and plundering Europe in Jesus' name. Hundreds of thousand were murdered to pay for this.
You OK with that? Does one magnificent frescoe make up for that?
The statement I last made was not directed at you. It was directed at the hand.
This is a photo I took in the private area. Unbelievable works by Rafael and others that are never seen by the public. Vast wealth collected and hoarded away. Still being collected today. Luxury you can only imagine.
"How many murders is it worth? The only reason it was built is because Pope Julius II was raping and plundering Europe in Jesus' name. Hundreds of thousand were murdered to pay for this.
You OK with that? Does one magnificent frescoe make up for that?
The statement I last made was not directed at you. It was directed at the hand.
This is a photo I took in the private area. Unbelievable works by Rafael and others that are never seen by the public. Vast wealth collected and hoarded away. Still being collected today. Luxury you can only imagine."
Then we get into the philosophical side of things... and I am in no way attempting to sway anyone with this. I agree, beforehand, that it is completely my own belief system and based largely on emotion.
Is one fresco worth all the pain caused by conflicts over religion? No. And if that was the only example of religion leading to beauty, then also no. And to answer a question that you asked another poster... Am I more patient and loving than anyone else-more than others less than others I guess. But I know I am more patient and loving than my base self. Left alone, I'm not a very nice person.
If I have found a role-model that leads me to be even a little better than it is the best possible result I can hope for from wars I wasn't around for and have no power over. If I see miracles where none exist- it is not because I am ignorant of their scientific nature- but more of a choice to believe that their significance is more than a chain of chemical reactions or a splitting of cells. Call it selective ignorance if you like- but life without a touch of the "mystical, or imaginary" is like looking at a fresco and breaking it down to individual brush strokes.
I didn't start any wars. I'm not likely to start any wars. I'm sorry for the wars that were started in ANY gods name. That's not what religion means to me, and if it did I wouldn't want any part of it.
I guess I want to see miracles in rainbows. Which, admittedly not only illogical but corny as hell. If that is my goal though though, knowing about light refraction is not going to help. I also want to be perfect in kindness, love, and forgiveness. I also want to know, even without evidence, that I would be good enough to sacrifice myself to save another person. Whether Jesus exists literally or only as a personification of those traits doesn't really matter, that belief serves as a driving force when e=mc2 would not.
Are you going to start mocking me with misspellings now?
No. I think you have spouted enough nonsense already.
AWESOME! job on avoiding the points I made though. Well done.
Bet Jesus is proud huh?
*sighs* which point did I not address again? I thought I hit them all, but I didn't do a sentence to sentence call and respond so I might have missed one.
"You may call me an agnostic, but I do not share the crusading spirit of the professional atheist whose fervor is mostly due to a painful act of liberation from the fetters of religious indoctrination received in youth. I prefer an attitude of humility corresponding to the weakness of our intellectual understanding of nature and of our own being."
- Albert Einstein
Cagsil, (And I know I'm going to get s**t for this) No one ever is allowed to have hurt feelings? Science is one thing, but are we now arguing that humans shouldn't experience emotions either?
Melissa, no disrespect is meant. The problem stems from a number of people who truly don't understand their own life. If words matter that much, then people certainly have bigger insecurity issues with themselves than appears. That is my point.
Example: If I told someone that they are ignorant and they got offended, then apparently they have issues to work out with themselves and truly don't understand their own life. Every person on the planet is ignorant in some manner and to claim that oneself is not ignorant in some capacity or another, is lying to themselves. To be "ignorant" is to be lacking something, which fits everyone. Therefore it is NOT an insult.
I agree completely that hurt feelings are the result of insecurities. Insecurities are part of the human condition however.
Couldn't, just possibly, the argument that hurt feelings are the fault of the receiver be used to excuse cruelty? And if the insulter is aware of those issues, then what would the motivation be to insult those areas specifically?
edit: And ignorance is also part of the human condition and everyone is ignorant of more than they are aware. I agree.
Without a long debate, which honestly I'm not up to right now-no sleep- could you tell me what specifically would be wrong with "On this point I believe you are unknowledgable"... in comparason to "You are ignorant" as a blanket statement?
The "human condition"? One only needs to understand their own life, which is what many do not understand.
Melissa my dear lady, words only have power, when the receiver gives power to them.
If a person is insecure in a certain area, but refuses to do anything about fixing the problem and then is insulted by the words of someone else...it is obvious that they gave power to the words and they are only to blame.
One of the biggest problems in the world today is that too many people find it acceptable to BLAME OTHERS for issues they themselves create. Now, that is truly ignorant about understanding life.
I agree with your last statement.
However some people are just not as strong or confident as others and I would not necessarliy say they are always ignorant.
In that instance they lack self esteem (IMO)
Sure they are. They don't understand. They are closed minded or narrow minded. They have closed themselves off from learning. The learning they shut themselves out of is about themselves.
They are not learning about themselves. We each are to be responsible and accountable for every aspect of our life. Each person can be whatever they choose to be. The human will is a free commodity, which works best based on effort.
You don't have the will to live your life, based on a specific code of conduct, then accountability will be weighed upon you.
Understanding your role in your own life is important. And, on the other hand, what affects and effect, do your actions have on your life and the lives of others? At what level do you actually give a damn?
If it is not deeply enough, then you do not LOVE yourself and it show in your actions. You want to talk about responsibility of the individual, then it is important that every single person on the planet, should want to make impact on other people's life. It should benefit them and while you do it, you build a solid character level for yourself, which brings confidence and self-esteem.
Yes, many people have self-esteem issues, but it is completely based on their environment, stemming from childhood. It goes to show you that people(many billions of them) have failed humanity in raising their children properly. Just look at many societies. All external influences are corrupted, so it boils down to the individual, learn for themselves, who is actually making the most sense.
Religion and the belief in a god, automatically does a disservice to humanity. Not to mention, it's based on mysticism, which is based on dishonesty to begin with. Established FACT. It has been an established fact that mysticism isn't real and isn't based on reality. And, anything that not based on reality is dishonest.
You supposedly serve a god, by actions and faith. When in fact, you should be serving humankind, to better it and ensure it's survival. Otherwise, your life has no real or true meaning. Sorry.
No you minimise humans Cags and fail to see ,that some people simply do not understand nor accept what you (or I) may see for them.
Whose to say ,who is right anyway?
They may be ignorant of some truth ,but if they dont know they are ignorant,whats your solution.
Bang them on the head (verbally) so they get ..what?
I am confident in many of my abilities and eager to try new things (at least once)..BUT I would need a generous dose of andrenalin to fly a plane ,or out swim a school a sharks.
Not much hurts me for too long ,but I would be lying if I said nothing hurts me.
That doesnt make me insecure ,it makes me human. A human with a mind AND emotions.
It's not what I see FOR them. I don't minimize humans, but rather they didn't minimize themselves or their actions in this world.
Truth does and it must be recognized without one's ego. There IS a right way to live life.
They do know they are ignorant, because they know they don't know everything. I had a poll on a hub once and it asked that very question- "Do you think you are ignorant about your own life?" and NOT one person said no. Only ego would say that they are not ignorant in some aspect of their own life. This would mean that they have figured out everything about their own life, yet their actions prove them wrong. Thus, proving ego did the talking.
This remark I am going to disregard, because it's been answered in a previous post.
And, I wouldn't be lying. I know and understand myself, as well accept the path I have laid for my character, so my actions can be as honest as possible. I make no bones about my method of communication and I will not apologize, because the message is too important to the future of humanity. Not to mention, to the betterment of humanity.
There are several ways to better humanity,primarily concentrating on the attitude and actions of ones self first and foremost.
Of course one can be loving ,honest,law abiding etc without ever attributing one single jot to Jesus Christ and the life giving power of His precious Holy Spirit.
Many have lived and died never accepting Him.
I have on the other hand accepted He is the creator and if he made me ,then he knows exactly how I am wired.
He even knows exactly how many hairs on my head!
I hold myself accountable for my own actions. My actions are based on honesty. If you don't like it, then too bad. I hold everyone else to the same standard I do myself. If you don't like that, then again too bad.
Life can be cruel at times, but with the RIGHT frame of mind and understanding of one's own life, it can make life easier. The status or even stasis, of one's mind matter most. To understand self to the deepest point, learn all you can. To absorb knowledge and turn it into wisdom. Stupidity is limitless. Ignorance will always be around, but it doesn't make someone stupid.
The easiest way to overcome both, ignorance and stupidity, is to learn.
Melissa, LOVE is all that matters. It's the only spirituality you require. Nothing more, because there is nothing more.
Yes and many who have accepted him, grew hatred and cause many conflicts. To have and maintain the best quality of life is to bring peace to yourself, which means reduced stress and bring peace to others, which grows your meaning of life. When one creates their own purpose for their life, they essentially put meaning to their life. When you do that, it means you understand your path in life. Otherwise, it means you are lost aimlessly looking for answers. You'll even go to the desperate step to deceive yourself. Which is why "you are you're own worse enemy" is actually true.
He did MAKE you. Your parents did. And ONLY YOU can know how you are wired, by introspection of self.
Conjecture. You haven't a clue what would be on HIS mind. To claim so, is not sane.
To quote insane shows Cags your ignorance of whats written in the Bible.
I don't say you have to believe it,but it is written so for me or anyone to claim it is recorded is indeed a fact -NOT insanity.
Actually He knows a lot more,and yes I claim to have read ,and signed on the dotted line
Make me insane?..too funny ,I think you have deluded yourself to thinking YOU know YOU best. How could you?
You are human. No man is an island.
Sure be responsible for your actions and increase your knowledge by all means...
Keyword 'ALL means'...
Jesus came too inform, enhance,add too,extend,fufil,amplify,transform.
I'm sure, but people have been locked up for it. So, it's not actually funny.
How can it be a delusion to know one self. Don't YOU know YOU? Don't you know your limitations? Don't you know your capabilities? Don't you know what you feel? Don't you pay attention to what you do? And, how the affect and effects, of your actions are on yourself and others?
Your questions says YOU don't understand your own life. The whole point of life, is know yourself, love yourself and love other people as though the love you feel for yourself.
You want TRUE spirituality, then direct all your life to helping others. Create a purpose driven, meaningful life. Make an impact on others. Identify, your primary underlying issue to living your life- and that's your ego.
Really? Then why is that every human being pretends to be something they are not? And, the only way to not do it, is to see past your own ego. Because, then it is NOT about YOU, but becomes about OTHERS. Too bad you don't seem to understand this.
Yes, by all means, and discard what is not actually NEEDED to move forward in life and to find peace.
Yes, but his mission, purpose is universal and it's been distorted by others, as it formed around him as a basis of religion.
Much of the information in the Dark Ages was destroyed or manipulated. The morons in charge, the primary ruled religions, only USE people.
Of course I dont know ALL of me,that is the point I was making and I suspect you do not know ALL of you either.
We never will ,we did not 'create' ourselves.
A builder builds a house and he knows every nook ,and cranny. He understands the foundations ,its strengths ,its weaknessess. He is familiar with all of the building because he has the blueprints. He built the house.
Now the owner or tennant also knows the building,but he only knows what he sees, and possible what he researches.
Do they both have the same knowledge. Of course not.
I also agree that much about Religion has been distorted throughout the ages,but equally much has remained.
I do not beleive everything that is spoken in the name of God ,much like I dont believe everything spoken by Politicians, but that doesnt stop me from believing in a Government and desiring good people run it.
Some people give credit to Jesus, or God for creating them, and continue to believe that God knows everything there is to know about all of us.
To others it is Allah, or the JuJu God of the Mountain.
But still there are others who believe that Jesus, and all the other deities are all imaginary characters, invented to fool and control a gullible and ignorant human society. Therefore, Jesus did not create anybody or anything, since imaginary characters are incapable of doing ANYTHING!
First, a believer, in any religion, must provide proof that their religion is not just another contraption, invented to fool and control mankind...then proceed from there.
Does that make sense?
It makes sense ,at least up until youre very last paragraph
If God is dead ,then whose that living in my Soul?
My imagination you say?
Maybe ,but what if youre wrong
What soul? Again you talk of imaginary concepts.
Unfortunately, yes it is your imagination--- brought on by rigid indoctrination.
Have you ever even asked yourself...what if you are wrong about Horus, or Allah, or Vishnu, or Isis?
What then? Are you not just as critical in your thinking as I am? It is only when it comes to the religion already chosen for you by your culture, that you force your psyche to suspend critical thinking.
This is the unfortunate side effect of indoctrination.
It doesnt make sense that I need to prove anything.
I am not trying to sell you an idea or theory.
Bottom line if someone isnt interested in God ,then so be it.
I will however speak about what God has done for me (when asked)
I respect others to make whatever choice they want to make without fear ,ridicule or mockery.
That to me is a healthy sign of a mature human being ,dont ya think
But by telling others what a non-existent entity has done for you, makes for serious, emphatic rebuttals, since it appears that your assertions are whimsical delusion.
Asserting childish nonsense as reality is neither healthy nor mature, in my opinion.
Btw, this statement is a logical statement, based upon the fact that these beliefs that you speak of are no different than the belief in Santa...it is not meant to ridicule or to be a mockery.
Are you capable of killing? Are you capable of learning? Are you capable of understanding and/or comprehending?
So what- create ourselves. As for not knowing yourself, you apparently don't understand yourself, because you're not listening?
Again, you seem to be trying to expand, but fail to see it's already been accounted for. The fact that you keep posting additional things, which doesn't dismiss what I said, is an example of the many things I continue to say is wrong. Yet, your comprehension is becoming an issue.
There is nothing in my post that, doesn't make sense. If you don't take time to know yourself and improve upon that knowledge, then you are useless to yourself and much less of value to the rest of the world. Sorry, no other way around it. It's a direct path, and starts with understanding the world and life you live in and live through.
Compare a house to life? You're too funny. It goes to show you are grasping at straws.
Nope. Approximately, 90% of all records were destroyed by the church during that time.
Believing in a government? Apparently, you're not understanding. Give me one solid reason WHY government would be needed, if every person acted civilized to one another, acted on love for one another and self? It all starts with the individual truly being honest with themselves. Government is just another example of a higher authority, which doesn't actually need to exist and wouldn't if people understood their own life.
We do not live in an ideal world.
It was corrupted long ago.
Apparently it you who doesn't understand this.
Im speaking about working with what is
Sadly you didnt get my earlier analogy either.
I wasnt comparing a house with life (thats silly)
I was comparing a builders knowledge over the home owners...
Im sure you see what I was saying...or shall I say it again
I understood the analogy, however, one is limited and the other isn't(Life). You learning is never ending, until death.
You were created by your parents. You were not created by anything else. You began because two humans procreated. No other reason. You denying that or making more out of it, is only done to deceive yourself.
Life can also be created in a petri dish as well Cags... No longer do we need the physical act to make babies.
No ,I believe what God said about my conception.
That is pretty much the only difference between you and I.
Who we give the credit too.
You give credit to a god, while disrespecting your parents.
You say " words only have power, when the receiver gives power to them.
If a person is insecure in a certain area, but refuses to do anything about fixing the problem and then is insulted by the words of someone else...it is obvious that they gave power to the words and they are only to blame."
What if we replace "words" with blows to the head? Would the receiver have to be insecure to actually receive the blows? No.
And you may say the two are not the same, no they aren't but aren't both unnecessary? As Melissa said you could be more polite!!
That would be twisting the interpretation of what I said. Or "blows to the head", supposed "metaphor" for physical, mental or emotional "abuse"? If you mean physical? Then you're way of base. If you find it a mental, then again bigger issues are involved. If you find it emotional, the again bigger issues are involved. And, it stems from not understanding.
Sure. They are.
I stand by what I said above.
Yes, I could be more polite. I choose not to change myself anymore, except via knowledge and wisdom. You want to challenge my character as a person? Bring it.... At least I am trying to make the world a better place.....Can YOU actually say the same? Or do you have more issues than you can handle?
Deal with yourself, before you attempt to deal with me.
Yes! I am making the world a better place. If you read any of my hubs on getting rid of the stigma of depression, and explaining to people what it is and how to help others understand and deal with it, you would know I am very productive!
Also the opposite can happen.
A wise and secure person has no need to correct or pull down someone who is living in ignorance (according to ??, the status quo) because he/or she is confidently comfortable with their own space.
It wouldn't be "unknowledgable", considering it's not a word, but "lack knowledge". The word "Ignorant" says it in a more broader terminology, while not being specific to what aspect one is ignorant in.
I personally, only speak from knowledge and wisdom. My beliefs are no one's concerns, unless they are family and/or friends. Even my friends, are not privy of my beliefs, because they have no need to be.
On an individual level, life is easy and it is the people themselves that make it complicated. The simplistic nature of life is always overlooked, but constantly distorted by others.
When I use the term "ignorant" is always with knowledge. The knowledge is on the subject of Life, in many aspects. Many of my hubs make it fairly simple to understand oneself and life.
Jesus said, "By this shall all men know that you are mine; if ye have love one for another." So, it seems that the essence of religion is love and everything else is just mechanics.
"The "human condition"? One only needs to understand their own life, which is what many do not understand."
"Melissa my dear lady, words only have power, when the receiver gives power to them."
I agree, but there are quite a few factors that affect a person's ability to have the kind of strength needed to realize that. Extreme bluntness would only amplify those issues.
If a person is insecure in a certain area, but refuses to do anything about fixing the problem and then is insulted by the words of someone else...it is obvious that they gave power to the words and they are only to blame.
There is a whole world of in-between that I think you are discounting. The process of "fixing the problem" is not instantaneous. Especially if insecurity is deeply ingrained by mitigating factors. If one is trying to get better, but hasn't reached well yet, then the "blunt honesty" test is bound to produce a failure. That failure, in one who is still weak, could be devastating.
One of the biggest problems in the world today is that too many people find it acceptable to BLAME OTHERS for issues they themselves create. Now, that is truly ignorant about understanding life.
On the opposite end, there are many people who contribute to the self-esteem deficits of others but never accept responsibility for it. Abusive parents, rapists, etc.
No disrespect meant Cagsil, but I'm going to err on the side of TRYING (in caps to accentuate my probable occasional failure)to be gentle whenever humanly possible. I wont sacrifice honesty for it, but if I can choose gentler terms and still be understood I will use them.
I'll also understand my insecurities, understand where they come from, and work to fix them. I don't have a timeline on that though. Some are easier to fix than others.
Got any advice on how to do it?
Actually, I'm not discounting them. I am showing that the individual doesn't understand.
That depends actually. I made an instant turn around in my life, after struggling years with issues which I refused to see a doctor.
I understand that and I also understand that some of those factors are part and parcel, the underlying problem which came from their upbringing, because those who help in their upbringing, didn't know any better.
It's not a failed test, but is a character test, which cannot pass or fail, but learn from.
It's not a failure, as I said. It's a lesson of life to be learned from, so they can know themselves better.
Of course, but those particular people are more ignorant than those who they commit atrocities against.
That's understood. Everyone chooses their own method for communicating.
One question, you have identified the underlying cause? If so, then tell me. I am curious, to see if your perception would be the same as mine was. But, if I can help, then would gladly.
"Actually, I'm not discounting them. I am showing that the individual doesn't understand."
The point was more along the lines of there is a gulf between knowing something is a problem and having the tools to fix it. A great many people are in various stages of this "in between"
"That depends actually. I made an instant turn around in my life, after struggling years with issues which I refused to see a doctor."
I amend my statement to "not generally instantaneous"
"It's not a failed test, but is a character test, which cannot pass or fail, but learn from."
Its a POV thing. If one is struggling to change and is hit with "blunt honesty" and is not far enough in their journey to shrug it off, then it may cause a regression.
"It's not a failure, as I said. It's a lesson of life to be learned from, so they can know themselves better"
Lessons can only be learned when one is capable of learning them. The type of emotional development that you are talking about assumes that one is limited in understanding in the beginning-which is probably true and enlightened on the other side, which is true again. Enlightenment generally occurs in stages. If one has not reached the stage to learn a lesson, it cannot be learned. Attempting to teach that lesson repeatedly will not change their ability and will lead to frustration on both parts.
"Of course, but those particular people are more ignorant than those who they commit atrocities against."
I agree, but emotional acceptance of that knowledge will only come at the end of self development. Until then, the effect on the victim of the atrocities is both normal and understandable.
"One question, you have identified the underlying cause? If so, then tell me. I am curious, to see if your perception would be the same as mine was. But, if I can help, then would gladly."
Oh dear, that is a bigger question than you know. I have a train full of insecurities with differencing reasons for all that are in various stages of recovery. I am quite certain there is a waiting list with a few more that I haven't recognized yet.
The biggest blanket cause of my insecurities is a desire to be loved. That gives those I care about an enormous ability to hurt me. So yes, I am more open to criticism from those I care about than strangers. I'm addressing that by learning to evaluate the truthfulness of their comments. That requires self-knowledge that I am still acquiring.
Major areas of sensitivity are attacks on my parenting skills: causes include guilt from the death of my son, the knowledge that I haven't always been the best mom-and associated guilt from that- and the general suspicion that 2 out of 4 children having disabilities is indicative of either faulty genetics or some form of environmental cause that can be traced back to me.
Somewhat related are the attacks on my daughter and her disability. It hurts for me to hear her called retarded even though I am well aware that autism and MR are two separate things. I think that somewhere there is an over-abundance of empathy- It doesn't hurt her yet, but one day it will and I know that. Also a refusal on my part to accept that she has to be in any way limited.
I am insecure about my appearance because I am aware of what I look like, able to make comparative judgments on where I stand, and saddened by the knowledge that I lose in most of these judgments. I want to be physically beautiful, I'm not, and I wish not to be reminded of that. I have accepted it though. There are some abuse issues there as well.
I am insecure about my intelligence. I know logically that I am intelligent. I have been presented with opinions to the opposite for so long that it has eroded the emotional knowledge of that. Yes, it is because I gave those words power. I am in the process of rectifying that. Someone who is close to me insulting my intelligence still makes me question-strangers don't bother me any more-
And on the lighter side-I cant cook or make coffee and I clap on one and three. It used to bother me to reminded of that-- I got over it.
So yes, it is my insecurities that open the power of insults to hurt me but I am not quite yet strong enough to stop it.
Truthfully you have just described the amazing worth of your soul.
Above rubies ,more precious than Gold
Is it not the most beautiful thing when a human being is honest and unafraid to display that honesty.
Far from being insecure ,in my opinion you represent someone who deals with reality face on, tears,fear ,laughter and joy!
I find many of your thoughts very inspiring Thank-you!
How odd that you hate it when atheists are honest. Oh well.
How odd that you hate it when theists are honest. Oh well.
I have never met an honest theist.
That is the point.
Have you ever looked for an honest one?
If you haven't ?
We always find what we are looking for!
This is a lie. Please stop lying at me. All you are doing is defending your beliefs. You are not trying to converse with me. What a shock. A dishonest theist. Thanks for making my point.
i saw some words I consider as your come back (experenciensed Debater)
but i didn't seee you say anything.
I think I'm pretty honest. Not saying I've never been dishonest- but in the grand scheme of things I'm probably more honest than most people
Wanna have coffee?
Not to be picking on ya ... (Love Ya) but it is much easier to be honest when we keep our words few.
I would love to, but I think we are pretty far apart. One of these days I am going to win the lottery and meet all the people I met online in person.
Claiming god as fact (as most people who believe it do) is dishonesty. Most theists do not claim it is "just a belief" - they claim some rational or scientific basis. This is intellectual dishonesty.
When you argue with me that you have a rational belief - you are being dishonest - with yourself in the first instance, because there can be no rational belief in a god. Your rationale is that it is better to believe an infinity:one shot than not believe because you might be right. This is not rational thinking. You have fooled yourself that it is. You may be honest in other areas, but you are not being honest with yourself.
This is why people who believe in a god have been persuaded to do so many awful things. That is not to say they cannot be persuaded by other means such as patriotism, nationalism etc.
Also - the term theist does not really apply to you. You are a self professed christian monotheist.
Hey Melissa, You are as flexible as they come, willing and able to be understanding on the highest level, these "others" as I'll describe them, have personalites like sharp pointy stones, and remind me of a person I talk to on the phone, who is ONE SIDED, and who pretends to listen but only wants to say what they want to say! How narrowminded and pathetic and totally lacking of good manners.
That's what I say, I applaud you for the way you handle yourself, most "Christians" (There's that "evil" word again, because I looked up the word atheist and found that many think everyone else, that is anyone with religious beliefs are responsible for ALL the problems of humanity like Bill Maher and we all know that's impossible, just like when a couple fights, it's always a % of each who are at fault, maybe a poor example, IDK ) But most Christians here bend over backwards like you with politeness and patience and are refutedly ignored because "they" the atheists on here, or whomever they are, will not listen like a one sided conversation and cannot WAIT to say their piece hahahahahahahhahaha . Again http://hubpages.com/hub/Attitude-with-Latitude
As long as she can, somehow, dismiss some of the things that doesn't support "Goddunnit!"
Actually, most of the Christians on here are like you...angry, bitter, hostile, and unwilling to listen to simple common sense, when it comes to addressing their fraudulent and irrational beliefs.
That wasn't my intention at all. If anything, I conceded far more points than I successfully defended. And the only thing I actually dismissed was one-very small-point in a discussion with Cagsil. And yes, I did state that there was no argument he could have provided on that ONE point that would have convinced me.
I'm sorry getritrite, but I believe your assumptions of me are wrong.
@ Cagsil- still not enough coffee.
Maybe it was confusion, caused by semantics.
Sorry, but semantics has a way of doing that. I just thought that there was ample evidence in your exchanges to imply that you STILL choose to believe in a God despite the fact that a belief, as such, would be irrational.
In the end, what is it that you find reasonable about continuing to believe in an extremely improbable God?
I conceded that it the belief was irrational, but I didn't concede that it wasn't the best belief for me. There is a whole world of irrational that has value. Besides, you can't argue about believers being gullible then expect them to change their whole world view based on an internet conversation on religion.
Besides, I don't believe it was anyone's intention to convert me, if it was then it was an incredibly limited and egotistical hidden agenda. Much as it would be if I was intending to convert anyone else.
I was exchanging knowledge/understanding. Its a good thing. I'm not really a goddunnit kind of person, but if you choose to believe I am, then there's really no point in discussing it, (Especially if you take the view that all discussions are for the purposes of changing another person's opinion.)
And to answer the last question, there is nothing rational in my belief in God. Not one single thing. That point was conceded a few pages ago. Reasonable, it it works for me, then I assume that it is reasonable to go with it Unless you want to suggest that I should choose something that is unhelpful to me?
I actually think that the biggest problem we have with discussing religion/spirituality on this forum is that many of the folks on each side are so intent upon conversion that those of us who are not get ignored or battered in their place.
I just can't figure out when it became a standard belief among Christians that there is some sort of better heaven in store for those who can beat their beliefs into others. Last time I checked, I believe in God, but I am not God, and only God can draw someone to Himself. As a Christian, if we act as though our words will convert anyone, we are acting from a sorely misguided ego. AND, if we act as though we're better Christians than the rest depending on how many people we can bring into accord with us, we're really missing the mark.
Most of us who are believers (most, not all) are actually interested in dialogue, and we acknowledge that our belief may seem irrational to others. In fact, it may even BE irrational...but we also don't try to sell it to unbelievers as FACT, so our behavior isn't necessarily irrational.
When I try to sell someone an unprovable idea as fact, then my behavior is irrational.
Which is why you seldom get "attacked" in the forums.
Some of us object to the preaching and flogging of religion as if it were not an option.
Many live good moral lives without belief in a god or religion, and are fed up with being told or have it implied that we are less moral than religionists, as it simply is not true.
I agree completely, earnest. I wish that the screamers would quiet down long enough to realize that every one of us has something valuable to say, and it just makes ALL of us look bad when they behave that way.
And worst of all, it builds walls where we might actually be able to engage in dialogue about how to work together to make things better in the world.
I used to be like you Motown, in so much as I would say my piece as peacefully and as humbly as I could,trusting in my fellow man to show same respect back.
But the more I praised God effect in my life ,the more it seemed to piss a few off, and sadly at times it was like being the only kid who had freckles (lol) in class.
I mean in a Religious forum ,who expects to see some many atheists?
Treated everyone with respect and courtsey ,even when I was mocked back.
If you stick around long enough though ,and this might be the key ..leave for a week or two and pop in occassionally, to maintain some sense of composure,then I guess its at least tolerable.
I've found that the best way to maintain my own composure is simply to engage with those who are truly interested in dialogue and to ignore those (on both sides) who are simply interested in pushing their own agendas.
Sadly, I have to admit that I have seen it from both sides. There are Christians who often argue in these forums that I have to ignore, simply because their behavior is deplorable.
As far as the aggressive atheists, I generally find that indifference shuts them off quicker than anything else.
It makes me sad, in the grand scheme of things, because I don't feel that we should ever have to use indifference as a weapon. It's a terrible feeling to be ignored. But, when all you do is hurl abuse (whether it's telling others they're going to hell, or telling others that they're irrational and stupid), you're not worth engaging.
YOU have never been one of those as far as I'm concerned, EK. I respect the fact that you are generally kind and firm in your discussion. You don't insult others for their lack of faith.
It's also very obvious to me that there are those in these forums who don't insult believers for their faith.
The ones on both sides who DO scream the loudest get more than enough interaction from each other.
They don't need us more moderate folks to join in.
And, I don't see anything wrong with being the only freckled kid. It just makes you special!
Personally - this is one of my goals. Your indifference and willingness to not push your irrational beliefs at us. So - thank you. Please shut your churches, stop pressuring politicians to change laws to suit you and evade tax laws, and stop evangelizing - then we are getting to a place where irrational beliefs stay private - where they belong.
You do see how silly it is that you refuse to engage with people because they do not agree with you? Because they fire back at you when you attack them with your beliefs? You do see that this is why Christianity has caused so many conflicts and is divisive?
Interesting that you use the same heavy handed tactics to achieve your goals as the crazy fundies.
Perhaps if you show the same indifference that you wish to be shown to you, it will happen.
Until then, I suppose you will be a victim of the insanity.
Also, you may want to quit with the sweeping generalizations.
Sadly, I don't truly see a resolution until you back down as well.
Mark, I know that you personally have been victimized by religion, and for that I apologize.
You have not, however, been victimized by me. Until you're able to discriminate between those like me and the crazy ones who have abused you, there will sadly be no advancement of the dialogue, or, as you wish, any achievement of indifference.
My name is Evolution Guy. You don't get it do you? If you stop pushing your ridiculous beliefs - I go away. Yet still - here you are defending and fighting.
What advancement do you want exactly? Your majik book says it all. You are either with me or you are against me and the only unforgivable sin is non-belief. Have you read this book?
I made a reasonable statement just now which you completely ignored and rejected.
Please stop pushing your religion and it's agendas and people will stop pushing back. Is that too hard to understand? Do you not see that YOU are making the first move? You are pushing an irrational belief. You. You are as bad as all the other religionists throughout history. Why? Because it is the camouflage of the majority like you who say "ah, well - they are not REAL Christians," that allows the MASSIVE abuse that still goes on today. The same goes for Islamic extremists and creationists who keep their children at home to teach them that science is lying to them. The Pope should have been arrested already. Instead?
Well done. Ignore my reasonable and rational statements and run away. So much for wanting a dialog? This is what always happens and shows you do not actually want a dialog - you just want to defend yoiur beliefs.
You have refused to address anything I have said and now are gone. This always happens when I make a point that means religious zealots will need to evaluate their beliefs.
All you have really said is that you want to be left alone to do your religion thing. And - for the most part - that includes selling it to children. I have tried to explain why this is abuse, and pointed out the continuing abuse that goes on by religious people and you ignored it with the usual lines. This is why the abuse continues today.
Defenders of the faith - like you.
Actually, I addressed what you said and you chose to ignore it. Since you want indifference, that is what I shall offer.
Relgious belief is irrational.
I do not force it upon anyone - you included.
Should you choose to feel differently, I cannot change that for you.
I find it shameful what has been done to you in the name of religion.
BTW, I have no children, and I don't sell anything.
Rather than continue in a meaningless conversation that will lead to personal attacks, insults, and sweeping generalizations that mean nothing, I choose to respectfully exit the thread now and leave you to your other missions.
Enjoy, and may you propagate in abundance the peace you desire.
Why will it lead to meaningless conversation? We are getting some where. You now admit your beliefs are completely irrational. That is a start.
If you are also saying that you never encourage children in that belief and explain to them that this belief is wholly irrational and does not have any basis in fact - that is another step forwards and I am glad to hear you do not tell children these are facts, simply irrational beliefs that make you feel good. I assume they make you feel good in any case.
Goodbye and have a pleasant day.
Is everyone who's religious a zealot to you? Are there non-religious zealots?
Does religiousness automatically make you a bad person and someone who ignores science? Does atheism make you a good person and someone who respects science?
What defines a "zealot"?
No - the 95% are good cover for the minority that are though, and seem ready to jump to the defense of anyone who claims to be religious.
Yes of course, But they are mostly confined to religion and politics.
No. Unless you are in the bible belt.
Hard to answer. Religious people label themselves and claim a group belief system and ethical standard, which I have rarely seen them live up to. Atheists are labeled by religious people and have no stated beliefs. I am certain there are atheists who are ignorant of science and do not respect it. Depends how you look at science. I "respect" most of the findings of science, but have little respect for some of the ways it is applied. But that is hardly the fault of science. Science just seeks to explain what is. If we then genetically modify an insect that wipes out a crop and causes a famine - well - that is us - not science.
According to statistics of prison populations in the USA atheists are far less likely to commit a crime (or more likely to get away with it) than religious people. If that is a way of measuring "good" and "bad" that works for you - then yes - atheists are more likely to be good and religious people are more likely to be bad.
Zealots are people like TMMason or Brenda. They are excellent examples of zealots. Back in the days before the Internet, they would have been whipping up a crowd for a lynching.
There are degrees of zealotry - the person I was talking to claims to want a dialog, but immediately ducks out of the conversation when any points are made and then accuses me of being a troll. She will take a few days to calm down, then pretend it never happened and be back for more. That is real zeal. The ability to ignore everything and go steaming ahead regardless. Not as bad as the two examples I mentioned, but this is zeal. On fire for Jesus.
Maybe just from the unreasonable attacks that we've seen here. If you think Melissa and Motown are zealots, that they're advocating war and a "you're either with us or against us" mentality, then anyone with a respect for the truth will defend them.
I'm glad you've made a distinction, even though it's a bit of a crude one. Religious does not mean anti-science, and, incidentally, an atheist can be anti-science, too (as I've seen in at least one atheist poster in recent threads).
Is it fair to say that the religious you were raised around were evangelical zealots, and thus color your perception about the way all religious people act?
Are you providing cover for that minority of atheists who ignore science in favor of their unsubstantiated beliefs?
That's probably because atheism is more acceptable to people who are well-educated than it is among people who are uneducated.
I agree, although neither is particularly observant with respect to their religion. They both routinely violate the most basic principles of their religion, so Christianity might be more of an ethnocultural identity than a religious practice for them (or many others who are "loud" about their religion).
Don't you mean "Jeebus"? You *are* a troll very often, Mark. The minute you start distorting what someone else said, and ridicule them for what you'd like to believe they believe, then you're really no better than the zealots you excoriate.
I can't tell you how many times I've sided with your viewpoint early in a conversation, and then see you do your credibility in with a bunch of petty insults lobbed against people who haven't really deserved them.
I didn't really have any calming down to do, Mark, but I thought I'd pop back in to say hello.
Hope all is well with you.
In a way its attitudes like the one you hold that increase my faith...100% Mark
For I know we wrestle not against flesh and blood at all
Ok well Im off to an 80's outdoors concert (yea Im old)..so looking forward to it..
Dont you forget about me~~ la la singing...
No ,no ,dont you ,
Dont you walk on bye .~~
Have a happy and safe Sunday all !
Of course it does. You have no respect for the wishes of others at all. Why would you be interested in doing what other people ask you to do? You value me not one whit. I already know that. This is what your religion teaches.
I'm not very good at accepting complements, but thank you I need to thank Kiwi too.
I understand that Melissa. And, the only thing I am attempting to do is help add clarity to things that appear to distorted or are being manipulated by other people.
Actually, many people are instantaneously insulted, at the drop of hat. Why? Too sensitive. Why? Insecurity with themselves.
The only point of view is character? Your individual character. The improvement of said character helps self esteem. Increases in self esteem drops insecurities.
Only if they let themselves wallow in it, which is why words shouldn't factor. They cannot accept themselves yet, therefore they cannot accept others. It leads to intolerance.
Everyone is capable of learning, they need to get better control of their learning process. To do that, one needs to always keep an open mind and have the ability to see beyond oneself(accept humility). Humility always leaves a sour after-taste, but always gives a lesson to be learned.
Learning leads to knowledge and knowledge leads to wisdom discerned truth, when the ego isn't in the way.
It all stems from seeing beyond oneself. If one cannot see beyond oneself, then one becomes their own false truth. Truth isn't subjective, it is objective. And, as I have said before and I will say again, there IS a universal truth among human beings. There IS a collective truth that exists and it is known when seen(recognized without ego).
I am sure, but as long as communication is honest between both, the message will get across.
Wrong. Self development is only ended by death.
Normal? and Understandable? It is actually controlled by outside influences, that love to distort and manipulate others. And, it's no longer acceptable, to be normal or understandable. Not when the actions of ONE person can extinguish billions of lives.
I'm sure. I had my share.
Then you don't love yourself. Otherwise, you would know that you can be loved and love others immensely.
If they truly cared about you, then they will not purposely hurt you. If they do, then their actions shows you that they do not love you or themselves for that matter.
Learn what you can from it, then move on forward. Use it to improve upon yourself. It is all you can do.
Acceptance of self and learning from previous experience is your only way forward. No guilt and no forgiveness required. Accept the past, learn from it to free your guilt. As for the likelihood it is genetics? Don't know. However, if the environment was better than it is, then circumstance would better and have different results. This I am sure/positive of.
I came across a woman in my research and she was autistic. She overcame it and went on to lead a very productive life. So, I know it isn't actually a disability. It's how she develops forward it what matters. The quality of her life, which she should know, she can have with effort and support.
It sounds like you're living in your own past? I wrote a hub that might help? It's called "The Past, The Present, or The Future- Which Controls Your View?".
Intelligence of self is irrelevant. One shouldn't need to measure oneself by intelligence. I don't consider myself an intelligent person. To me, my intelligence level doesn't matter, because I have the confidence that I have discerned truth from the knowledge I've gained. Truth cannot be wrong.
This is the acceptance of self process.
Good, but don't give up on improving yourself though.
Of course not. I can see that, but if I can help, then I want to.
Like Melissa said, many people don't understand your logic actually and if you were more assertive rather than agressive, you MIGHT just be influential. But instead you are wasting you breath thinking you can convert everyone here -who's not in agreement with your thoughts- when it's an utter waste of time, because with agressiveness....(part of psychology) the recepient is repulsed and drawn away whereby with assertiveness, by saying something nice and then giving your point, the recipient is much more likely to receive the thought and think on it. Basic psychology my friend
Okay Cagsil- Some partial responses from bunches far back. I'm two pots of coffee and a day of swimming with my spawn down.
I amend my statement to "not generally instantaneous"
Cagsil wrote: Actually, many people are instantaneously insulted, at the drop of hat. Why? Too sensitive. Why? Insecurity with themselves."
Miscommunication: I meant that a fix was not "generally instantaneous" even if yours was. We were debating the time it took to fix things.
If one is struggling to change and is hit with "blunt honesty" and is not far enough in their journey to shrug it off, then it may cause a regression.
Cagsil wrote: Only if they let themselves wallow in it, which is why words shouldn't factor. They cannot accept themselves yet, therefore they cannot accept others. It leads to intolerance.
Once again, you cant expect them to be there if they aren't there. If they were strong enough to ignore... oh say you ... then they would be far enough in the process to not fail the test. Its a catch 22.
Enlightenment generally occurs in stages. If one has not reached the stage to learn a lesson, it cannot be learned.
Cagsil wrote: It all stems from seeing beyond oneself. If one cannot see beyond oneself, then one becomes their own false truth. Truth isn't subjective, it is objective. And, as I have said before and I will say again, there IS a universal truth among human beings. There IS a collective truth that exists and it is known when seen(recognized without ego)."
On this one point, I call bullshit. You didn't address the point. It is a very nice answer, but it in no apparent way relates to the point. Concede that knowledge is either instantaneous or comes in stages. It has to be one or the other. If it is instantaneous, then no further examination is necessary. If it is a process then you must allow for the time the process takes.
I agree, but emotional acceptance of that knowledge will only come at the end of self development.
Cagsil wrote: Wrong. Self development is only ended by death"
To be more specific, emotional acceptance of knowledge comes only after the knowledge is completely integrated. At that point, there would be no further need to address that area unless the knowledge changes. I'm not talking about all knowledge, just knowledge relating to one area of development. There does come a point when individual areas of knowledge have been completely learned. Expecting emotional acceptance IN THOSE AREAS comes only after that point.
Until then, the effect on the victim of the atrocities is both normal and understandable.
Normal? and Understandable? It is actually controlled by outside influences, that love to distort and manipulate others. And, it's no longer acceptable, to be normal or understandable. Not when the actions of ONE person can extinguish billions of lives."
It is completely acceptable for a victim of trauma to be traumatized. I'm not sure what else I can even say here. Are they eventually going to need to seek help for it? Yes. Should we discount that effect because their pain is their fault because they let rape or abuse "get to them"? That's not even a consideration. Not for me anyway.
And on this subject... And just to clarify your position... would repeatedly telling them they were raped be acceptable because it was the truth. And to what degree? Is it something like "Hey Jill, you were raped so you are illogical. Its your fault you are ignorant of this because your ego is getting in the way. It's your fault for being emotionally scarred by it because you gave your rapist the power to hurt your feelings. Why are you crying? Its the truth. Geez, how irrational...
That really wasn't meant to be argumentative, but I really need clarification on exactly how far your beliefs go. If there is no room for mercy or charity in speech than I respect that you have your opinions, but they are too far from where I am to be able to understand them. Consider it my ego
Just for the record, rape isn't a personal issue for me. No hidden agenda for that topic.
The biggest blanket cause of my insecurities is a desire to be loved.
Cagsil wrote: Then you don't love yourself. Otherwise, you would know that you can be loved and love others immensely."
I have that knowledge. Having the knowledge and even logically accepting the knowledge is not the same as feeling it. (for me) I'm working on it.
That gives those I care about an enormous ability to hurt me.
Cagsil wrote: If they truly cared about you, then they will not purposely hurt you. If they do, then their actions shows you that they do not love you or themselves for that matter."
Again, have the logical knowledge, working on emotional acceptance.
"Cagsil wrote: Acceptance of self and learning from previous experience is your only way forward. No guilt and no forgiveness required. Accept the past, learn from it to free your guilt. As for the likelihood it is genetics? Don't know. However, if the environment was better than it is, then circumstance would better and have different results. This I am sure/positive of."
Do I really have to type it again? As far as the guilt... it can be a transient motivating factor... and for now I'm ok with using it as such. And by environment, I meant my body/womb. These are thoughts I really do need to finish fleshing out all the way as the knowledge is needed for future decisions. So this one I need to wallow around in a little more. During that time, when I am unsure, I will be more likely to be hurt by comments about it.Would it not be cruel for someone to continue to berate me for it, if I am actively seeking to change it/learn from it?
"Cagsil wrote: I came across a woman in my research and she was autistic. She overcame it and went on to lead a very productive life. So, I know it isn't actually a disability. It's how she develops forward it what matters. The quality of her life, which she should know, she can have with effort and support."
Actually, I'm pretty sure it is a disability. The degree in which it can be overcome is unpredictable. It is possible to live a productive life for some, for others it is unlikely. There are varying degrees of Autism, and there-right now-is no way to know where Lily stands. (She is 30 months old) My insecurities lay in not knowing where to draw the line between acceptance of her limitations and efforts to change them. As I can-in part-anticipate your response to this, let me pre-argue that Yes, there are limits and trying to push a child past them IS cruelty. My insecurity comes from not having knowledge that, at this point, there is no way to obtain. So yes, my feelings will be hurt by either "Melissa, accept that she is going to be institutionalized" or "There's nothing wrong with her that a good ass beating wouldn't fix" Both of which are actual quotes.
"Cagsil wrote: It sounds like you're living in your own past? I wrote a hub that might help? It's called "The Past, The Present, or The Future- Which Controls Your View?"
Thank you, I'll look at it. This is actually a weird one... yes, I was abused and yes I'm still living in the past... Working on it. (The story is so pathetic, I'll not even address it) He still attempts to verbally abuse to this day, and I can very easily ignore HIM. I can ignore strangers. I am just saddened by my own opinion which is based in self-knowledge.
If any specific points from that post are not address, then either they are being addressed in another post/sub discussion or you can assume that I concur and understand.
Melissa, let's differentiate age, since that apparently needs to be known. If you're making reference to children, which I think you are, which is why there is a miscommunication in our conversation. Children constant re-evaluate themselves many times over, constantly assessing themselves, but how they go about it, could be a problem. However, I am not in a position to speak about children and most of the time, people tell me that since I don't have kids, then I apparently don't know what it is like to be a parent.
If you're talking about adults, and they cannot deal with bluntness, then they certainly have lingering issues with themselves.
One cannot fail a character test based on ignorance ingrained into human nature. There is nothing to fail. Only something to learn.
Learning is instantaneous for some and for some it comes in stages. When people see beyond their own ego, they have a more open mind. Ego selectively dictates what IS learned.
You can say whatever you like about it, but it's truth. It's the primary reason for why "you are you're own worse enemy" always applies. When Ego is in play, then it becomes your enemy, because it stops you from learning, growing as a person and expanding your imagination, due to an open mind. You want to call what I say "Bullshit"? It's truth regardless of whether you like it or not.
You can have emotional acceptance, but if one doesn't understand change or adaptation, then you will have a person who acts out of pure emotion than rational. You integrated the knowledge all you want, but it doesn't close the door on ignorance. How people process knowledge is key? To be at peace and balance is how you change yourself to adapt to your environment, both socially interactive and individually. There are only two forms of thinking, which covers all communications. Rational and Irrational.
When was the last time YOU completely learned about any individual aspect of Life? I have run down over 1000 in my mind, areas of thought, on many aspects of Life and I don't find myself with your confidence.
Apparently, much of what is considered "normal" is changing. This is obvious and the only area of Life you have to look at is Rights. Normal people kill people? for what reason? And, no it is not completely acceptable for a victim of trauma to be traumatized. People respond to trauma differently and not everyone is traumatized by the experience.
Those who are traumatized should be helped. There isn't any doubt about it. Remember, outside influences at play here with regards to what classifies as "traumatized".
Rape and Abuse are different aspects. Therefore, different rules apply, same as the Laws. These two are political issues and influences. Why you brought this up to begin with? I'm not sure. I doesn't line up with previous things mentioned. Thus, I don't see a connection?
Why someone would remind someone else that they were raped? Is beyond reason, it's an act solely based on stupidity. It's outright disrespectful. There is a point or a line, you don't cross and that line is basic on character of the individual. Someone who is pathetic enough to remind some woman that she was raped, is absolutely clueless on many levels.
Do you see how stupid that person looks? And, I explained my position in above comment.
We all have faults. It's our acceptance of those faults, which helps us learn and grow. I read enough people and the words they lay down as their words(which is mostly conscious thoughts typed).
Ego isn't honest. It cannot be, simply because it's selfish. Being selfish isn't being honest
The above statement is another yet stupid and disrespectful statement. However, the resilient nature of the individual human, is based on their will. So, in essence, emotional scars? Can be overcame. What you learned from the experience and how you let it affect you, is under control by your will. You have accept that control. It either controls the individual or the individual takes control of their life? Some manage a balanced life, but many never recover.
Well, I guess you could started with this statement before introducing it into the conversation, which had nothing to do with rape or abuse.
I understand. I've told many people on here. I've learned to love myself and since doing so, it has opened me to a unique clarity about life. I've learned I can be mad at people, but still love that person, even if the person is a stranger. I've learned more in the last 10 of my life than I did in the first 33 years.
But, that's not the environment I am talking about outside influences. The ones that cause undue stress and where it stems from, and why.
Only you holds you back.
You control your own self improvement. Is it cruel to berate you about it? It depends on how long the status remains stagnant. If you say you have been working on it for 10 years already? Then, someone could possibly say something to upset you. But, if the truth is 10 years and you've done nothing do move forward? Then you have bigger issues and more pressing issues.
Yes, I am aware.
I only mentioned the story as a positive. I personally know nothing much about autism. My knowledge is to know that it has something to do with the activity of the right-side of the brain. That's about all.
Take it day by day and see what happens. Her limitations? Too many factors. See what initiative she takes in her own learning. Her efforts should direct the course.
I don't understand. What knowledge, which is available to humankind, cannot you not obtain? It sounds like you need to change your view?
A lot of what we learn is self-knowledge. You teaching yourself.
Nice way to end a post.
I will reply to everything else in the morning, I promise. Beyond my emotions and my belief in God, however, my thinking process is being destroyed by lack of sleep. You made some very good points a few that I disagree with and one or two that need clarification to me.
The only one I'm going to address now is:
"Everyone is capable of learning, they need to get better control of their learning process. To do that, one needs to always keep an open mind and have the ability to see beyond oneself(accept humility). Humility always leaves a sour after-taste, but always gives a lesson to be learned."
I agree that most everyone (excluding those with barriers beyond this conversation) is capable of learning... however not everyone is capable of learning a particular piece of knowledge at a particular time...
For example- If I was trying to teach my kids a particular concept--- we'll go with multiplication-- They must first learn addition. To learn addition, they must first learn counting. To learn counting they must first learn number identification...
It would be cruel for me to judge my kids ability to learn based on the inability to learn a concept, that AT THAT POINT they do not have the foundation to comprehend. Calling them ignorant-which technically they would be-- would be abuse.
Only two choices exist, either learn or choose not to learn.
Okay, this is understood. It is a process, but truth cannot be learned(discerned) with ego in place. The "ego" is the most damaging aspect of oneself. When 'refusal' comes into play, ego is at it's highest peak. Thus, choices become limited.
Again, calling them ignorant isn't a judgment. It means, they lack something. That is all. It is not abuse either. It's truth. I understand what you are saying, but if you are teaching children, in your example and they cannot grasp it, then apparently it isn't clear enough for them to understand it. Which means, the teacher isn't being clear enough in the explanation or has taken the wrong steps in their development.
Your example, you used mathematics, specifically multiplication. And, you stepped backwards, to show the process which they have to learn first and had you covered the previous steps, then multiplication should be simple, if not, then it falls on your inability to explain. Nothing more.
I use as many words as I can to explain my position, my knowledge and the wisdom I have gained. My communication method is simple and forward.
I'm not sure we are on the same page.
Just to restate: I agree that ego is a barrier to learning, I believe that we give other people the power to hurt with our words.
And yes, if I was teaching my children to multiply before the other steps-then the fault would be mine.
But their ignorance of multiplication would still not be their fault. The would be unprepared to learn it, no matter how many times I called them ignorant. Even if they accepted their ignorance and put forth an honest effort to learn multiplication they would fail--because they do not have the foundation to learn.
So, yes by my definition, repeatedly pointing out a fault-even if it is true- is abuse. If one cannot change that fault at that point then no good can come from it.
In additon, there are certain words that carry power in and of themselves. Ignorant is one of them. I would not expect my children to be able to separate the semantics between "stupid" and "ignorant" until much later in life. It, again, would be assuming an ability that they do not have the foundation of knowledge or emotional capacity to accept.
Just for the record here, and for the sake of honesty, there is no argument that you could give to convince me that calling my children ignorant would be acceptable. I feel that it would be abusive. If that must be irrational, than so be it.
It would fall on both.
That depends on how they go about learning it. You are not their only available source. Self improvement is not something that can be truly taught. It is something we must self-teach, so as to understand ourselves.
No it is not.
Again, in search for an answer to why it is a fault, is the life lesson each of us must learn. So, good does come from it. A fault can be overcame.
Yes, certain words do have power, however, which ones and what power, is dictated by positive and negative impact.
And, HOW you let the power of that word affect you, is based on your perception- positive light or negative light.
No semantics actually.
Maybe it is YOU who are underestimating their ability? Age plays a factor, so I cannot say "yes" or "no" as to their ability.
I didn't say call your children ignorant. It's only a word they need to understand, which will remain with them, until the day they die. No one can know everything there is to know, because much is unknown still. It appears as if you're giving too much power to the term.
When will You realize that we all have the chance to create that which we want to see.
Like you have said a million times before.
why don't theists claim the blame or our own actions.
I agree! No matter who ..YOU/me .. happen to be.
Evolution Guy wrote
I would love to, but I think we are pretty far apart
= - - = -=
Now that would be a mericle! please do!
separating ourselves could be seen as a a good thing to those left behind.
Which is my argument with your religion Jerami. It separates us from ourselves and those around us.
That is what i wish "YOU" could see. i don't care if here is an organization for YOU and I to hide behind ot not.
Organizations don't do NUTTIN ,,,, individuals do.
Don't matter about democrat, republican, babtist or protistant, wiccan, or homo or homophobic. "WE" do it to ourselves.
I wish you would stand up and admitt thay "You" cause conflict ON PURPOSE cause unlike everyone else YOU think you have justification.
LOL Semantics Jerami. But as you wish. YOU cause division and conflicts. Why do YOU insist on arguing and defending your religious nonsense? Why do YOU fight when I point put the division it causes when YOU push your religion?
YOU don't even know what I believe yet you accuse ME of causing conflicts cause I don't agree with you.
Who is doing what ?? I await your answer yet i know what it will be ,,,, cause you are you and I am me.
For that you accuse me for that which you do,
No Jerami. YOU are the one making the claims of something. I am saying it is nonsense. See how that works? YOU make a claim - I say YOU are causing conflict. YOU defend the nonsense. Read any history book. YOUR religion has been doing it since day one.
And what clain is that which I am making or which you seem to be loosing breath over.
Well - I am not overly impressed with your defeatist, nothing to be done, the end times are a-comin' because it is prophesied in the bible nonsense. That can't be healthy for anyone. :
I am sorry .... but you are Ssoooooo full of yourself that you have been blinded by the light.
Ah - personal attacks because I don't accept your religious nonsense.
See? This is how YOU cause the conflict Jerami. YOU spout nonsense. I ask you to stop and point out that it is unhealthy nonsense. You attack me.
And how is MY nonsense any different than YOURS?
as with mysel... that could fill a library.
You seem to be kinda inteligent.
Can't you see that it don't matter who we are; or what we blieve, the only diference is .... how much we believe it!
As long as we remain within this physical realm in which we find ourself. what we see is truth to us.
You don't like the flavor of mine and I don't like the flavor of yours and that is how it is supposed to be.
Like the baby said.... build a bridge and get over it.
When you cross that bridge YOU can cause as much conflict as you choose.
Cause it don't matter how fast or far you run when you get there ... there you are.
Yes and you can't get past it, It's like racism, you don't want to associate with that person, prejudice.
"Your rationale is that it is better to believe an infinity:one shot than not believe because you might be right. This is not rational thinking. You have fooled yourself that it is. You may be honest in other areas, but you are not being honest with yourself."
*smiles* actually, that is Pascal's argument. It's the one we chose to debate and the one I conceded on-- I also listed James' argument in the post that started it, and we never even got there My personal reasons were listed later with the admittance that logic really didn't have anything to do with it. There's the whole philosophical debate over whether a conscious choice to suspend disbelief is, in and of itself, an irrational choice. Especially when the choice is necessary to achieve intangible benefits. That debate could possibly last for DAYS.
I'm all for the "I believe this way until I don't" standpoint and I'm okay with being proven wrong. I'll probably not become a nonbeliever, but it's nice to narrow down my reasons for believing.
James' argument is not really worth discussing, because it misses one crucial point. And that point is that believing based on his reasoning is damaging and causes cognitive dissonance. It also makes certain assumptions regarding "truth," that are clearly from a theists perspective. i.e. - some one defending an irrational belief in something that is unproven and has no evidence for. Also - like Pascal, it ignores the infinite number of possible gods.
The best argument I have heard is Descartes', but if you read between the lines - it is clear he did not believe.
If you were 10% as open minded as you would like for us to believe you to be ??????
You would see the gaping whole in your arguement.
don't you see?
Whenever YOU don't like the look on someones face, YOU don't believe anything that they say?
And yet you accuse ME
Please stop lying about me Jerami. I don't believe what they say about your Invisible Super Being. But - that is because it is irrational nonsense that I have investigated for myself, not because I don't like the look on their face. YOU cause the conflicts by spreading nonsense Jerami. All I do is ask that you stop. Then you fight about it.
Isn't it funny Jermai! So laughable!
so sad and blinded!
LMAO, arguing a theory in which you don't personally prescribe is also a learning lesson.
Pascals argument was thoroughly dismissed decades ago
There is no possible reasonable argument. Even the bible says this. You must believe by faith alone. Then when people try to argue a case - they end up fighting because people will not accept their irrational, illogical arguments.
A god is a logical impossibility. The Christian version is particularly destructive and makes utterly no sense. That is why believers defend it so forcefully. They are trying to convince themselves and - a large part of society has had enough of this all pervasive assumption of a god that means "atheist," is a dirty word.
I'm not sure that there is no possible reasonable argument-- I haven't tried them all out But yes, my personal beliefs are, as stated, a selective irrationality. I also subscribe to a little bit of semantics in the definition of debating. To me there is a very large difference between trying to convert and trying to have a conversation. I'm not trying to change anyone's thinking but-possibly-my own. I am not sure that I can think of a case where trying to convert a non-believer is a good idea. ~again that is a personal belief~
So, I agree with you. I also agree that wars in the name of God are about the most illogical and destructive forces out there. Even allowing for the belief that conversion is like some sort of referral program that God has running-- with afterlife as the reward--true belief is never achieved at the end of a sword. The only thing gained is the very egotistical affirmation that you have beaten "the heathens" so you must have Gods favor now. If I believed that Christ worked like that, then I would be out of there.
The problem with Christianity isn't so much the belief in Christ- who was by most accounts a pretty cool guy- but rather a large group of individuals who have sought personal gain by using Christ as an excuse. In short, its not the God... its the religion.
That being said, there is a great amount of good that has and can come from a belief in Christ. Artwork, science (yes science, like it or not the catholic church was pretty much responsible for the progression of science for 300 plus years) medicine (a great many hospitals-including St. Jude-- are supported or have been supported by the church) and a whole host of humanitarian efforts. (Think salvation army)
In addition, there is great potential for individual growth that comes from aspiring to become like Christ. The problem comes in believing that you have succeeded.
I tend to think about it like electricity. Electricity is beneficial to lots of people, but is is also used to kill people all the time. Its not electricity's fault that it is being used as a weapon.
I know I said good night a while ago.....
But i got a few more minutes to waste.
Come on with it.
Prove to me that you have NOT been blinded by your own light.
I have accepted that the Flying Spaghetti Monster is my creator, with the life giving power of His precious Holy Ramen Noodles.
I love ramen noodles. They are indeed precious. Especially the ones with the dehydrated peas.
If it makes you a better person ,hey who I am to judge
this link is for YOU. I meant to put it in before. You spoke of how I needed to see a professional
Here is my hub on people like me who have won Nobel prizes, abolished slavery, etc.
http://hubpages.com/hub/A-List-of-Famou … -Illnesses
I rarely come to these forums, but I find it amazing how individuals love to engage in endless debates over religion. Everyone wants to prove their point and disprove the other. Why is that important? It appears that possibly, it gives one a sense of superiority, maybe?
Then we see quibbling and insulting, demeaning each other's beliefs in some way or another, which ends up nowhere but useless words out in cyber space. How is this productive?
The answer is easy: it's counter-productive. So why waste anymore time debating the same thing over and over when you already know what the outcome will be?
Getitrite how do you know there is no soul? Do you scientific proof there isn't one? I like to read your statement resources backing up your positioning that people don't have souls. I work in a operating room. Just in the short timespan working as a scrub tech I have seen firsthand the life source of a body vaporize. When that moment occurs the skin immediately becomes dull and the facial features of that person immediately become drawn in like somebody had just sucked out everything. The body loses a certain amount of weight in nothingness upon that moment and it is a medical fact that there is no other reason for that to occur. It is not due to fluids or air. So I'd like to read something factual supporting your statement to see the contrary findings. I think the human body is amazing machine. It fascinated me.
No, but I don't have scientific proof that there isn't a tooth fairy either. Kinda pointless.
The fact that there is no proof of a soul is sufficient enough. Your "evidence" and position are based, purely, on conjecture.
God...I mean...good for you...but, of course, completely irrelevant as evidence of anything.
The same thing happened to two of our dogs, that were run over by cars, when I was a youth. That implies nothing, but you can infer anything you'd like.
Then it must be conclusive! Wow!
There is a lot to respond to there. I appreciate the conversation and I think I have a pretty good idea what your views are. I agree with some of your viewpoints and disagree with some. Regardless, the discussion provided some rich thinking opportunities.
Honestly, just from my point of view, some of your ideas could be rationalized to excuse cruelty and verbal abuse as they excuse a personal responsibility to be kind by assuming that all emotional damage from insults is the responsibility of the insulted.
Unfortunately, a call and response to your last comments would be dangerously close to attempting to change your viewpoints, so I am, respectfully, withdrawing from the conversation.
Thank you for your willingness to discuss however.
Melissa you are a great role model for other people to follow. I so like your forum style here at Hubpages. Something to work up to.
Sorry for derailing the subject briefly. I am out of here. But I just really like her responses here. And we all know how tough the subject of religion can be.
I agree too. It is refreshing to see a believer admit they hold selectively irrational beliefs in a god instead of trying to argue that there is some rational or scientific basis for their beliefs.
This honesty tends to cause less conflicts than the majority of believers who claim some rational or logical reasoning because there is no imperative to be right.
Pity you cannot all admit your beliefs are wholly irrational and stop causing so many conflicts by insisting they are real.
Perhaps you missed my earlier post, where I accepted and conceded the point that my belief in God may indeed be irrational. I, however, do not wish to, nor do I make any attempt to push those beliefs on others. So, while my beliefs may be irrational, my behavior is not. Attempting to sell God to you as a fact would indeed be irrational - just as it is irrational for you to try to sell the fact that there is no God. When you can prove that there is no God, I will concede that I am a fool.
Until then, I will hold to my belief. Carry on holding whatever you hold as truth.
I won't badger you, or debate you.
I would humbly request that you do the same.
I don't know that I can reasonably expect that, though.
"Depends how you look at science. I "respect" most of the findings of science, but have little respect for some of the ways it is applied. But that is hardly the fault of science. Science just seeks to explain what is. If we then genetically modify an insect that wipes out a crop and causes a famine - well - that is us - not science."
Depends how you look at religion. I "respect" most of the viewpoints of religion, but have little respect for some of the ways it is applied. But that is hardly the fault of religion. Religion seeks to explain what is. If we invade a foreign country-well that is us-not religion.
But religion is nonsense and seeks to explain nothing. Science deals with reality. I do not respect the viewpoints of your religion.
Born in sin?
Divorce is a sin?
"If you are not with me, you are against me."
Disgusting and divisive.
I wonder if you have actually read your bible? You are actually comparing religion and science as the same thing? This is why you need to rationalize a little.
Those aren't my beliefs.
Yes and several other books too.
Comparing reactions to religion and science. From my POV.
I do all the time, when I'm not practicing selective irrationality.
So - you quite openly admit you just made your entire religion up in that case? Reactions to known facts and reactions to religion cannot be compared. This is selective irrationality all right. And a powerful barrier to clear communication.
*smiles* Didn't make it up at all. My religion expects me to come to my own decisions on things. Thereby, I would be acting in contrast to my religion if I believed exactly what my church told me to do... which it wouldn't because that would also be against my religion.
As far as relationships between scientific facts, my religion encourages us to seek out the scientific and learn from it... Holy crap, what if I found a scientific belief in the course of my religious journey and chose to accept it as fact...? Would it then be scientific knowledge or religious fiction?
Clear communication is sometimes as limiting as purely rational thinking... If you understand exactly what I say, what reason is there to think about it?
So - it is your decision as to whether it is right or wrong to kill some one? Your religion does not tell you? Despite the bible - you just make your own stuff up and selectively believe what the bible says. Sounds like all the other Christian cults to me.
You seem to be being deliberately obtuse now though and managed to achieve my confusion because i have no idea what you just said next.
Yes, honestly I was being purposely obtuse.
Yes, EG it is my decision on whether or not it is right to kill someone. It would be regardless of my faith. My inclinations led me to my faith rather than the other way around. If a book told me to kill someone, I wouldn't do it.
Yes, I selectively believe what the bible, or any other source for that matter, tells me. If I am undecided, however, I will read what the Bible to seek guidance but it's not my only source. I will go to as many different outlets as needed before I reach a decision. If that means the Bible, The Torah, a psychologist, my mom, three encyclopedias and the old lady with all the cats down the street, then so be it.
I really am having a slight bit of difficulty understanding why you think that I must be an illogical, prejudiced, child-molesting war monger with no individual thought of my own just because I believe that a really good guy died on a cross and did so with grace.
How do you feel about the current laws in the land you live in?
I do not know all of the laws ,but if its a Western country,you understand the point I am making.
Since the majority are based on biblical laws, courts etc.
No. They are based on Greek philosophy and Roman courts originally. Then Christianity interjected itself, stole some of those ideas and took over the system by war and murder. Most civil law in Europe was based on Roman law until the Church forced control, and now most European laws are secular and have moved away from the biblical nonsense. Biblical law was a relatively recent introduction and the Byzantine and Roman Empires still contributed a great deal to the basis of the courts, even as Christians were murdering their way across Europe and imposing nonsensical laws for Jesus.
Thank goodness atheists are no longer burned at the stake for not accepting Jesus Christ as their Lord and savior and women who are discovered not to be virgins on their marriage night are no longer stoned to death, huh? Biblical laws disgust me - as they should you. And probably would do if you bothered to read the bible.
Have you actually read any thing at all? Any books? There are some good history books you could use to educate yourself instead of repeating the lies other believers spout as fact.
Try "A World Lit Only By Fire" by William Manchester, and "Roman Law in European History" by Peter Stein. They are both well written and interesting - and you might discover some actual facts instead of leaping to the defense of your religion with nonsense and mis-information.
Oh, I forgot. Time for my daily "You're all wrong!"
No matter what you believe or don't I think I'm better than you.
*Smirks, ducks, and runs*
A random thought.
"Religion is the opium of the masses" seems to be well wrong to me.
I have had opium, and it made me feel very relaxed and peaceful.
I felt no desire to go on a forum and flog it at all, in fact it probably lowers the subconscious terror of death that creates religious belief in the first place. .
well, since i don't want to read through all the bull and try to figure out what it is or isn't that everybody wants to say, won't say out load, or can't say because they don't want to offend G-d. I'll jump in here. Your religion is no better than anybody else's for this reason. Because G-d gave us free will to use as we please. In the mean time, it would seem that lots of people here on this thread have done just that! used their free will to pound on the bible, smash through some very small minds to see the light, and last but not least, proven that none of them are any better than the next because we as people don't measure up to the standards other people have set for us. Now,to all of the Christians out there i am not judging anybody, somebody all ready has that job and i choose to let HIM do it. it is a very hard job and i for one am damn glad somebody else has it. next, why do i have to choose who is better or what should you believe? when all it takes is just a little bit of faith in something other than money to make you happy!
Oh dear God, please let this thread die. The original intent is so long lost in the pages that every new poster is taking it out of context.
THE THREAD TITLE IS SUPPOSED TO BE TONGUE IN CHEEK! It was a response to another thread. I do not really think my views are any better than anyone else's.
That's how I feel about my scripture contest, but apparently I am already being demonized.
I took a quick look, but did not think it would change the usual responses.
Sense of humour is exorcised by religion.
Oh please.... Nobody has demonized you in your thread. Your post is tad bit overly inflated. Apparently you wish you were getting that type of attention.
No just messing about again. By the way, nice refereeing in that other thread.
Thanks. Looks like your thread is starting to take off.
And I really wanted people to just think it was funny. It seemed people on both sides of the argument were forgetting how to laugh.
I will never forget to laugh on the religious forums!
They can be hilarious at times.
Well, earnest, when I said 'people' I meant alot of people. I think you know you were one of few exceptions.
Yep! I have to say some of the fire and brimstone types had had a humourectomy.
Passage Ezekiel 38:22:
22And I will plead against him with pestilence and with blood; and I will rain upon him, and upon his bands, and upon the many people that are with him, an overflowing rain, and great hailstones, fire, and brimstone.
Yeah they definitely mustve edited out the funny parts.
to late sweetie, you want to make fun you gotta say so in the first place here. it's like the war zone and the christians don't like to lose. just ask them
Well it got a few arguments going, some of it was even about religion!
by charlie 2 years ago
For Christians ONLY.. Do you believe it is ok to have beliefs you cannot defend with scripture ?Many that profess Christianity have beliefs that they have taken as their own, yet they cannot provide scriptural proof of how they apply to Christianity. Do you believe a Christian should...
by Healing Herbalist 5 years ago
Why do people care what religion you are?
by Mikeydoes 8 years ago
Seriously why? Don't get me wrong I am sure this is a waste of time. I really need a forum filter, because I get fed up seeing all these religious topics all saying the same thing. Both sides are to blame. Many people say things just to get the other side mad, on purpose.It is fine to base your...
by www-mywikistep 4 years ago
What do you think about Religion?Does Religion help us improve our everyday life, or is it just a matter of belief to a higher being?
by crankalicious 6 years ago
Is religion taught from birth a form of brainwashing?If you teach a child from birth a particular religion, is this not brainwashing? Would that child discover that religion on their own if it's something they weren't taught?
by Eric Graudins 9 years ago
It's going to be hard for me to write objectively about this, but I'll try.I've recently seen a documentary about the child witches in Nigeria. I think it's just about the most terrifying and horrendous thing I've ever seen.The diagnosis and labelling of a child as a witch is pretty simple.If...
Copyright © 2019 HubPages Inc. and respective owners. Other product and company names shown may be trademarks of their respective owners. HubPages® is a registered Service Mark of HubPages, Inc. HubPages and Hubbers (authors) may earn revenue on this page based on affiliate relationships and advertisements with partners including Amazon, Google, and others.
|HubPages Device ID||This is used to identify particular browsers or devices when the access the service, and is used for security reasons.|
|Login||This is necessary to sign in to the HubPages Service.|
|HubPages Traffic Pixel||This is used to collect data on traffic to articles and other pages on our site. Unless you are signed in to a HubPages account, all personally identifiable information is anonymized.|
|Remarketing Pixels||We may use remarketing pixels from advertising networks such as Google AdWords, Bing Ads, and Facebook in order to advertise the HubPages Service to people that have visited our sites.|
|Conversion Tracking Pixels||We may use conversion tracking pixels from advertising networks such as Google AdWords, Bing Ads, and Facebook in order to identify when an advertisement has successfully resulted in the desired action, such as signing up for the HubPages Service or publishing an article on the HubPages Service.|