The "Come Argue With Me About Religion" Thread.

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  1. profile image0
    dixie28714posted 8 years ago

    If more people followed the acts and teachings of Jesus Christ the world would be a much better place, but people want to doubt and argue.  It's neat how all religions point to some type of God they worship, BUT Jesus is the ONLY way to heaven.  People just want to hear what they want to hear.  As Christians we should stand together and live our lives in a way that non believers would want to take part in instead of pushing them away.   There are people out there that if shown the right direction would be along with us fighting in the army of God.  This lifestyle is NOT an easy one, far from it, Jesus will come like a thief in the night, our job is to get people ready!! What else are we here for? NOTHING!! We are witnesses, to lead people to God & if we only direct one soul to Christ in our lifetime, that's one soul the devil did not get!

    1. MelissaBarrett profile image61
      MelissaBarrettposted 8 years agoin reply to this

      "If more people followed the acts and teachings of Jesus Christ the world would be a much better place, but people want to doubt and argue." 

      Actually, if everyone followed the beliefs of Jesus Christ, the religion would stagnate.  Growth is necessary because followers of Christ do not live in the same world that we did 2011 years ago.

      "It's neat how all religions point to some type of God they worship, BUT Jesus is the ONLY way to heaven." 

      Yes, but heaven is not the only possible afterlife.  Everyone's religious beliefs in the after life are equally possible and valid.  We won't know until we are dead.

      People just want to hear what they want to hear.

      Yes.  On both sides of the fence.

      As Christians we should stand together and live our lives in a way that non believers would want to take part in instead of pushing them away.   

      Okay, I agree with that. 

      "There are people out there that if shown the right direction would be along with us fighting in the army of God."

      The "Army of God" is not really congruent with your last statement.  Its kind of scary actually.

      "This lifestyle is NOT an easy one, far from it, Jesus will come like a thief in the night, our job is to get people ready!!"

      Yeah, thief in the night really isn't a good image for me either. I'll just worry about getting myself ready.  Free-will and all.

      "What else are we here for? NOTHING!! We are witnesses, to lead people to God & if we only direct one soul to Christ in our lifetime, that's one soul the devil did not get!"

      Trying to direct myself.  I would have no idea how to direct someone else without infringing on that whole "free will" thing. I suppose I've always thought I was here to learn and to try and do good for others.  I'm not even close to being perfect at that, so I'll go ahead and work on that for now.

      1. livelonger profile image92
        livelongerposted 8 years agoin reply to this

        I'm of a different religion entirely but agree with you on every point: every religion needs to evolve, no one knows if an afterlife exists and if it does what form it is, we should all set a good example but ultimately it's a personal choice about how we lead our lives, etc.

        1. MelissaBarrett profile image61
          MelissaBarrettposted 8 years agoin reply to this

          Just out of curiosity, what is your religion?

          1. livelonger profile image92
            livelongerposted 8 years agoin reply to this

            Jewish (Reform).

            1. MelissaBarrett profile image61
              MelissaBarrettposted 8 years agoin reply to this

              Very cool smile I'd love to pick your brain... this, however, is not the safest place to do it.

              1. livelonger profile image92
                livelongerposted 8 years agoin reply to this

                Haha, no kidding!

    2. schoolgirlforreal profile image81
      schoolgirlforrealposted 8 years agoin reply to this

      That's very good smile

  2. Danny R Hand profile image59
    Danny R Handposted 8 years ago

    Nothing personal, but on both sides of the debate, I see alot of vanity,arrogance,and self-rightousness. Just my opinion, but how did so many get so smart and yet noone agrees?

    1. Evolution Guy profile image58
      Evolution Guyposted 8 years agoin reply to this

      Really? Making a rational, reasonable argument and having a calm discussion is being self-righteous? How so?

      1. Danny R Hand profile image59
        Danny R Handposted 8 years agoin reply to this

        Psychopathic deity?

        1. Evolution Guy profile image58
          Evolution Guyposted 8 years agoin reply to this

          You don't think that burning people for eternity in a lake of fire because they do not believe is psychopathic behavior? sad

          1. MelissaBarrett profile image61
            MelissaBarrettposted 8 years agoin reply to this

            You do realize that not all Christians believe that right?

            1. Evolution Guy profile image58
              Evolution Guyposted 8 years agoin reply to this

              I am well aware there are 40,000 odd different cults that believe different things - yes. I think the majority believe in a fiery hell though - and certainly Pascal's wager relies on it. No eternal damnation - not much point to making the bet is there?

              1. MelissaBarrett profile image61
                MelissaBarrettposted 8 years agoin reply to this

                LMAO, Again... So soon? 

                Ok smile Then using the phrase "your psychopathic deity" in relation to my religion is false as the particular deity I believe in doesn't really like all that fire stuff.

                Pascals wager relies on both sides of the coin- gain heaven, avoid hell.  Since I didn't know him personally, I don't know which one was most important to him.

                1. Evolution Guy profile image58
                  Evolution Guyposted 8 years agoin reply to this

                  Heaven without a hell doesn't make a lot of sense in the context of the Christian religion. So - either you have made up your own version - I get mine from the bible - or you are not actually a christian.

                  1. MelissaBarrett profile image61
                    MelissaBarrettposted 8 years agoin reply to this

                    My personal belief system is influenced by more than the bible, it is the nature of my religion.  In addition, my interpretation of the bible is mine, as your interpretation was yours.  I never really stood by the "I read it, and this is what it says" methodology of Bible Study.  Thirdly, while the Bible is a very very Holy Book, it was indeed written by man.  The writer always corrupts the message. 

                    I am, however, a UU.  We may be the red-headed stepchildren of the Christian Evangelists but they are still forced to recognize us as at least nominally Christian. In short, I believe in Christ, therefore I am a Christian. Other specific beliefs may need to be addressed separately.

                  2. schoolgirlforreal profile image81
                    schoolgirlforrealposted 8 years agoin reply to this

                    You believe in the bible?!

          2. Danny R Hand profile image59
            Danny R Handposted 8 years agoin reply to this

            If people have certain beliefs because of their own understanding of something they have read, or a doctrine they have been taught, it does not make their understanding the correct one. The truth is, no one really knows. I personally believe it would be foolish to claim knowledge with certainty on either side of the debate. This is where the concept of faith plays a vital role on the side of monotheism. Yet the believer still cannot claim absolute proof. Nor can the atheist. I don't believe human beings are even a fraction as smart as we think we are. When we die, then we will know. Until then, it's all just guessing, and to claim any factual knowledge on the topic, to me, is misleading and arrogant.

            1. Evolution Guy profile image58
              Evolution Guyposted 8 years agoin reply to this

              How does that address my question? Just looking for a fight I see. You wouldn't happen to be a Christian  would you? sad

          3. schoolgirlforreal profile image81
            schoolgirlforrealposted 8 years agoin reply to this

            EG,
            You're just upset because you're afraid it's true

      2. MelissaBarrett profile image61
        MelissaBarrettposted 8 years agoin reply to this

        Other than the brief breakdown, I have to agree.  Debate isn't kissing each others asses and it shouldn't be.  If no one is actually calling names or personally attacking then saying "I believe you are wrong because:" is actually pretty healthy.

        1. schoolgirlforreal profile image81
          schoolgirlforrealposted 8 years agoin reply to this

          Oh, but calling someone irrational over and over because they don't agree..isn't that like saying they have lost their brain, don't have one, are in a coma?

          1. Evolution Guy profile image58
            Evolution Guyposted 8 years agoin reply to this

            Sorry you do not understand the term "rational" - oh well.

          2. MelissaBarrett profile image61
            MelissaBarrettposted 8 years agoin reply to this

            From a certain point of view... if you are insulted by opposing opinions-even when not stated politely-- is a sign of weak belief.

            When baited, if you become emotional, it proves lack of reasonable thinking.  Since that is what -I believe- he trying to prove in the first place it is a very rapid way to win an argument.

    2. Eaglekiwi profile image76
      Eaglekiwiposted 8 years agoin reply to this

      Because one set follows belief in the FLESH)(what they see, feel and hear),and the other set believes in FAITH ,what they believe has been done (Jesus dying on the cross) and to come ,ressurection.
      (My opinion /understanding) smile

      Lol ,but you are right ,nobody knows it all.

  3. Danny R Hand profile image59
    Danny R Handposted 8 years ago

    Not looking for a fight. And yes I'm a Christian. But I believe peoples relationship, or lack there of, with God is between them and God. I do not try to shove my faith down other peoples throat. I LOVE a good debate. Yet I am not into arguing at all. Its unproductive and creates disunity.

    1. Evolution Guy profile image58
      Evolution Guyposted 8 years agoin reply to this

      Yet you entered this discussion calling us arrogant and self righteous. And then failed to back your statement up with anything other than unrelated drivel. I knew you were a Christian from that attack alone. sad

      1. schoolgirlforreal profile image81
        schoolgirlforrealposted 8 years agoin reply to this

        so your feelings were hurt? lol and cagsil insulted me for saying that on page 1!!!

        1. Evolution Guy profile image58
          Evolution Guyposted 8 years agoin reply to this

          No. lol

    2. MelissaBarrett profile image61
      MelissaBarrettposted 8 years agoin reply to this

      I saw it as debating. *shrugs* Opinions were passed back and forth and I, at least, was forced to look at my beliefs in a different way.  If someone is willing to discuss, it is unnecessary that they change their viewpoints or expect me to change mine.  But lack of debate, especially on totally polar viewpoints is what leads to wars.

  4. Jonathan Janco profile image64
    Jonathan Jancoposted 8 years ago

    Unitarian Universalist I believe is what it stands.

    I met a woman once who I referred to as a HSWLG

    Human Sacrifice-Worthy Love Goddess

    1. MelissaBarrett profile image61
      MelissaBarrettposted 8 years agoin reply to this

      Well, that's probably the most unique thing that I've ever heard my religion be called... I have no idea in hell what it means though smile

  5. Danny R Hand profile image59
    Danny R Handposted 8 years ago

    I would suggest that polar viewpoints in conflict under the guise of debate is what causes wars. Maybe?

    1. MelissaBarrett profile image61
      MelissaBarrettposted 8 years agoin reply to this

      Then they shouldn't debate with false pretenses and hidden agendas.

      1. Danny R Hand profile image59
        Danny R Handposted 8 years agoin reply to this

        Meaning?

        1. MelissaBarrett profile image61
          MelissaBarrettposted 8 years agoin reply to this

          That if you enter debate with the intention of sharing your opinion but not receiving the other's side then you are not debating... you are preaching.  Preaching is great, if you have an audience that agrees with you... It has no place in conversation however.

          Wars don't start when two sides don't agree, they start when one or both sides tries to force an agreement.

          1. Danny R Hand profile image59
            Danny R Handposted 8 years agoin reply to this

            Well said and I concur.

  6. MelissaBarrett profile image61
    MelissaBarrettposted 8 years ago

    "No. You are a UU - whatever that is - I am not familiar with all the cults. This is not Christianity. The bible is pretty clear on lots of things - one of which is the concept of unforgivable sin.

    You do not believe in Christ to become a Christian. You become Christ by nailing your ego to a Cross. Like all the other cults - you do not understand that it only applies internally. You think it is external."

    Unitarian Universalist.  And you aren't the first to call us a cult-other Christians do it all the time.  Although corrupt liberals is the more likely phrase.  And yes, I probably did nail my ego to a cross, which is good for me personally as I was trying to get rid of it anyway.  It keeps coming back, I keep renailing it.  As far as it not applying externally, you couldn't be farther from my personal beliefs.

    1. Evolution Guy profile image58
      Evolution Guyposted 8 years agoin reply to this

      All religions are cults as far as I am concerned. Hard to say which is worst.

      I know - all your self professed Christians think this Christ thing is an external being. You are wrong. It is an aspect of yourself. None of you seem to understand this. And - you would not be here arguing about religion if you had actually applied this internally.

      Like I said - I have never met a genuine Christian. I have only met self professed cult followers who call themselves Christians.

      1. Danny R Hand profile image59
        Danny R Handposted 8 years agoin reply to this

        But I'm a Christian and I agree with you. It is internal and a part of me.

        1. Evolution Guy profile image58
          Evolution Guyposted 8 years agoin reply to this

          If that were true, you would not going attacking people and calling them self righteous and arrogant and the making passive aggressive suggestions that they are liars. Ergo - you are fooling yourself in order to claim some sort of superiority.

          If you had actually applied it internally, you would be ego-less.

          You clearly are not.

          1. Danny R Hand profile image59
            Danny R Handposted 8 years agoin reply to this

            You are right. It seems I  became what I was suggesting of others. Not my intention to imply that anyone was a liar. My apologies. Sincerely. I am still human myself, and include myself in my earlier statement that humans are not as smart as we think we are. I stand corrected, and I'm sorry.

            1. Evolution Guy profile image58
              Evolution Guyposted 8 years agoin reply to this

              No worries. It is almost impossible to do. wink

      2. MelissaBarrett profile image61
        MelissaBarrettposted 8 years agoin reply to this

        No, actually I understand it completely.  Christ is the personification of what I aspire to... forgiveness, love, compassion, service, understanding  I will never reach the goal but I can strive towards it.  So yes, he is-for me-the aspect of myself that wishes to be better.  I don't really have an external expectation of him.

      3. schoolgirlforreal profile image81
        schoolgirlforrealposted 8 years agoin reply to this

        What's a cult? Can you back up your statement? Is for example going to a Christian church the same as some "cult" who marry little children or worship satan and abuse animals? Are these all "cults" ?

      4. schoolgirlforreal profile image81
        schoolgirlforrealposted 8 years agoin reply to this

        Again, I tell you, you're here, trying to prove your point to make yourself feel better, because deep down your not 100% sure...you never knew a true Christian you say...but you know the bible...You are so adamant in pushing your opinion because deep inside you're scared and you want to pretend you're right.

        1. Evolution Guy profile image58
          Evolution Guyposted 8 years agoin reply to this

          Not at all. I am simply pointing out the conflicts your beliefs cause because you 1. don't actually believe, 2. don't demonstrate the traits you claim and 3, your beliefs make you behave irrationally - because they are irrational.

          The fact that you do not understand what constitutes rational is really down to your belief system. I am right. Just read any history book to see how much conflict this belief causes. You are behaving irrationally. You are fighting for Jesus. You are not really making any sense here. I suggest - and I mean this kindly - visiting a mental health professional, because this is not rational behavior.

          I am pushing my opinion - yes. Sorry that it bothers you that I am honest. Should I just shut up and let religious people write all the laws like they did in the past? Maybe make it illegal for me to get a divorce again? Perhaps make sodomy and oral sex illegal again? Bring back slavery? Like the bible says? Just look back at the laws religious zealots like yourself wrote. sad

          Your beliefs are irrational. Not only that - they are nonsense as well. As has been pointed out to you by some one else - they are also selfish and destructive - both to you personally and society in general. Why should I not seek to stop people like you damaging others? You do not keep these nonsensical beliefs to yourself like you should. These "Personal Relationships" with an Invisible Super Being should be kept private. It is a mental health issue that needs to be dealt with. sad

          1. schoolgirlforreal profile image81
            schoolgirlforrealposted 8 years agoin reply to this

            Well, my dear EG, I understand the belief of Evolution, and your points on bringing back the illegalness of divorce or oral sex are valid, I certainly like oral sex, but that's not the point, You don't know me, personally, and if you read my hubs you'd know some, and I have dealt with professionals smile and continue to do so, but Christian beliefs are not an illness in themselves.  Also further point is, that to have depression takes more strength mentally than the average opinion , IMO, because it take tremendous strength to get thru it in one piece, but that's for another thread or forum at another time. I'm very open about my depression in my hubs, and FYI many intelligent actors, comedians, and Abraham Lincoln had/have depression! So did Professor John Nash who won the Nobel peace prize as well as Albert Einstein, so I wouldn't go bashing people with depression just yet.
            God bless you smile

  7. Ingulik19 profile image61
    Ingulik19posted 8 years ago

    We all “climbing” the same “mountain” The pick of the mountain (God) is One… but there different ways to reach it. So, it is up to every individual to choose his/her path in how to reach it. And there is no harm in searching the “best” (not necessary easy) way to do it. One wise man sad ones:

    “The Reality of the divine Religions is one, because the Reality is one and cannot be two. All the prophets are united in their message, and unshaken. They are like the sun; in different seasons they ascend from different rising points on the horizon. Therefore every ancient prophet gave the glad tidings of the future, and every future has accepted the past. (Abdu'l-Baha)

    Or one more that I like: “…Religion is the chief foundation of Love and Unity and the cause of Oneness. If a religion become the cause of hatred and disharmony, it would be better that it should not exist. To be without such a religion is better than to be with it. (Abdu'l-Baha)

    1. Evolution Guy profile image58
      Evolution Guyposted 8 years agoin reply to this

      All religions cause hatred and disharmony. We would be better off without them - I agree.

  8. Danny R Hand profile image59
    Danny R Handposted 8 years ago

    Evolution Guy- Might I ask what you think about a Christian belief in God that is based in a connection of spiritual AND scientific principles?

    1. Evolution Guy profile image58
      Evolution Guyposted 8 years agoin reply to this

      Please show me this "spirituality". My experience of spirituality is that it is an entirely internal, subjective thing. 100% absolutely nothing external other than the empathic connections that can be made internally.

      No scientific principles can support the existence of the Christian god because the Christian external god is supposed to exist outside of reason, logic and - crucially - existence. He was there before existence was created according to the christian religion. This is why the Christian personal god cannot and does not exist - because this is not possible.

      1. Danny R Hand profile image59
        Danny R Handposted 8 years agoin reply to this

        Ok, if you want to question as I attempt this, please feel free. Scientific law (physics) states that EVERYTHING at it's base is energy. I believe God is a spirit. My understanding of a spirit is concious energy. All energy is connected. So we are a part of God and God is a part of us. God, being the Creator, created all this with energy useing scientific law. Physics. He made man in His image, hence we are creators. Our thoughts, words, and actions create our reality because these things focus our energies in the process of creation. This practice is evident in such spiritual laws such as the golden rule. Do unto others as you would have them do to you. Karma, what goes around comes around, and when Jesus said say to this mountain be removed into the sea and but believe, and it will be so. Positive attitudes invoke positive life styles and negative attitudes invoke negative lifestyles. Comments, questions?

        1. Evolution Guy profile image58
          Evolution Guyposted 8 years agoin reply to this

          This is not the Christian, bible based belief. Everything is based on energy. Measurable energy. Your "spirit" is not measurable. It is not energy - otherwise you could show it to me. Science deals with physical reality only. Not "spirits". wink

          What goes around does not come around. Life is unfair. Life is dirty and dangerous and scary and fun and the fact that I choose to do unto others will not bring that back to me. I still stand the same chance of being hit by a bolt of lightening as I did yesterday when I was being nasty to some one.

          You cannot reconcile science with the christian god. Look at you - you are redefining it in an attempt to defend your belief. So you do not believe in the Christian god - you just made a new one up. You are not a Christian. wink

          1. Danny R Hand profile image59
            Danny R Handposted 8 years agoin reply to this

            Yes I'm a Christian. My belief that Jesus is the Son of the Living God and that without Christs shedding of blood on the cross, I'm a lost soul is what makes me a Christian. And yes you can measure energy, but that does not mean we have figured out how to measure all aspects of energy. Also, when I talk about things coming back on someone, I'm not restricting it to something like a bolt of lightning. I,m more inclined towards the giving of self in many different aspects draws more energy towards you. Possibly even in simple forms such as more people. If a person looks at the bigger picture in the Christian faith, I think we mistake what can be perceived as good or bad things that happen to us. And I dont believe I,m redefining it. Although I came upon some of my beliefs reading in different venues, I can give scipture to back all of it. And yes I know, personal interpretation and all, but let me ask. Which is better? Personal interpretation thats studied and compared with other religions, or endoctrination and relying on others to teach?

            1. Evolution Guy profile image58
              Evolution Guyposted 8 years agoin reply to this

              Neither. The irrational belief in an Invisible Super Being causes nothing but conflicts and argument. They are both needless failed systems that have shown time and time again to do nothing but create friction and control.

              I am not really interested in how you twisted what the bible says to determine your belief system. You are not a Christian. Mind you - neither are all the other self-professed Christians - so you are not alone. This is why there are thousands of denominations and wars have been fought.

              But - I have a question or two for you.

              As this is simply your own personal belief system and it in no way matches with scientific knowledge and understanding. Why are you trying to prove it with science? Do you simply not understand that science deals solely with physical reality and has nothing to do with invisible, undetectable "spirits"?

              Because I am getting mixed messages here. First you say it is all internal. Then you claim to have some science to back it up. Then you say some nonsense about Jesus being the Son of The Living God and shedding blood  and because you believe this nonsense you are a real Christian.

              See - this is my issue with your irrational belief system. You don't do any work. You don't look inside. No attempt is made to become like Jesus. No introspection is done. No personal development is made. All you do is say the majik words and then fight about your beliefs. No offense - you all do it.

              Do you genuinely not see the contradictions in your statements? Do you honestly think this is a rational thought train?

          2. schoolgirlforreal profile image81
            schoolgirlforrealposted 8 years agoin reply to this

            If what you say is true, than we would not be alive today, because " Life is unfair. Life is dirty and dangerous and scary .."
            So with out a supreme being we should definitely be all dead because we all could've been "hit by lightning" or killed in earthquakes and melted by volcanos, if there's no being keeping us alive, then by what you say that life is dirty and dangerous and scary...there's no way we should be here.

            1. Evolution Guy profile image58
              Evolution Guyposted 8 years agoin reply to this

              LOLOLOLOLOLOL

              No wonder ur religion causes so many wars.LKOLOLO

              Majik Jeebus dunnit huh?

              1. schoolgirlforreal profile image81
                schoolgirlforrealposted 8 years agoin reply to this

                What does that have to do with this? roll

                1. Evolution Guy profile image58
                  Evolution Guyposted 8 years agoin reply to this

                  Just pointing out that you speak nonsense and demonstrating what it sounds like to others who do not believe the garbage you believe.

                  Sorry you do not understand because you are a religionist. sad
                  roll

                  1. schoolgirlforreal profile image81
                    schoolgirlforrealposted 8 years agoin reply to this

                    Yes, I suppose that's my diease roll

  9. MelissaBarrett profile image61
    MelissaBarrettposted 8 years ago

    Based on this definition:

    1. The Christian religion, founded on the life and teachings of Jesus.
    2. Christians as a group; Christendom.
    3. The state or fact of being a Christian.
    4. pl. Chris·ti·an·i·ties A particular form or sect of the Christian religion: the Christianities of antiquity.

    From http://www.thefreedictionary.com/Christianity

    "Neither. The irrational belief in an Invisible Super Being causes nothing but conflicts and argument" "They are both needless failed systems that have shown time and time again to do nothing but create friction and control"

    I am giving you one example of Christianity leading to the creation of something that is neither. Please answer on point smile

    http://s1.hubimg.com/u/5245884_f248.jpg

    "I am not really interested in how you twisted what the bible says to determine your belief system. You are not a Christian. Mind you - neither are all the other self-professed Christians - so you are not alone. This is why there are thousands of denominations and wars have been fought."

    Given the definition above- If faith is based on the life of Jesus, then the faith is Christian.  Concede point or give different working definition.  It helps if we are all on the same page.

    To address the last sentence-different denominations within religion, at the base, are equivalent to different branches of science in as far as the differnent studies can, but do not necessarily contradict the other.  In addition, wars have been fought for many reasons.  Boundary disputes, for example, have led to a great number of wars.  This does not, I hope, mean that you advocate for the removal of all boundaries.  Please answer on point smile

    As this is simply your own personal belief system and it in no way matches with scientific knowledge and understanding.

    Point conceded. Apples and Oranges.

    Why are you trying to prove it with science? Do you simply not understand that science deals solely with physical reality and has nothing to do with invisible, undetectable "spirits"?

    Point somewhat conceded.  Science regularly deals with the invisible and undetectable.  As far as "spirits" go, definition is needed. If we are talking about "God" well science has attempted to deal with it but -as you say- the scientific system is ill-suited to the study. 

    "Because I am getting mixed messages here. First you say it is all internal. Then you claim to have some science to back it up"

    I did say it was internal.  The rest is addressed by quote only as it doesn't apply to my arguments. Just letting you know I'm not ignoring it wink

    Then you say some nonsense about Jesus being the Son of The Living God and shedding blood  and because you believe this nonsense you are a real Christian.

    According to the above definition, yes he is.  Concede point or give different working definition.

    See - this is my issue with your irrational belief system. You don't do any work. You don't look inside. No attempt is made to become like Jesus. No introspection is done. No personal development is made. All you do is say the majik words and then fight about your beliefs.

    This seems to be in direct conflict with my statement of :

    "No, actually I understand it completely.  Christ is the personification of what I aspire to... forgiveness, love, compassion, service, understanding  I will never reach the goal but I can strive towards it.  So yes, he is-for me-the aspect of myself that wishes to be better.  I don't really have an external expectation of him."

    The burden of proof lies with you here.  Either concede point or prove that I don't feel that way.

    "No offense - you all do it."

    You have not met and studied the action of every christian ever so this statement is unprovable.  Concede point or provide proof of this exhaustive study. wink

    Do you genuinely not see the contradictions in your statements? Do you honestly think this is a rational thought train?

    Addressed by quote only as the questions were personal and addressed, I believe, to Danny.
    Just didn't want you thinking I ignored them.

    1. Evolution Guy profile image58
      Evolution Guyposted 8 years agoin reply to this

      The Sistene chapel is beautiful. It is one of my favorite places on earth. I was there last year when I had a guided tour of the private areas of the Vatican. If anything were to sway me - this is it. Until I consider the cost.

      How many murders is it worth? The only reason it was built is because Pope Julius II was raping and plundering Europe in Jesus' name. Hundreds of thousand were murdered to pay for this.

      You OK with that? sad Does one magnificent frescoe make up for that?

      The statement I last made was not directed at you. It was directed at the hand.

      This is a photo I took in the private area. Unbelievable works by Rafael and others that are never seen by the public. Vast wealth collected and hoarded away. Still being collected today. Luxury you can only imagine. sad

      http://pursenickety.com/vatican.JPG

  10. MelissaBarrett profile image61
    MelissaBarrettposted 8 years ago

    "How many murders is it worth? The only reason it was built is because Pope Julius II was raping and plundering Europe in Jesus' name. Hundreds of thousand were murdered to pay for this.

    You OK with that?  Does one magnificent frescoe make up for that?

    The statement I last made was not directed at you. It was directed at the hand.

    This is a photo I took in the private area. Unbelievable works by Rafael and others that are never seen by the public. Vast wealth collected and hoarded away. Still being collected today. Luxury you can only imagine."

    Then we get into the philosophical side of things... and I am in no way attempting to sway anyone with this.  I agree, beforehand, that it is completely my own belief system and based largely on emotion.

    Is one fresco worth all the pain caused by conflicts over religion?  No.  And if that was the only example of religion leading to beauty, then also no. And to answer a question that you asked another poster... Am I more patient and loving than anyone else-more than others less than others I guess.  But I know I am more patient and loving than my base self.  Left alone, I'm not a very nice person.

    If I have found a role-model that leads me to be even a little better than it is the best possible result I can hope for from wars I wasn't around for and have no power over.  If I see miracles where none exist- it is not because I am ignorant of their scientific nature- but more of a choice to believe that their significance is more than a chain of chemical reactions or a splitting of cells. Call it selective ignorance if you like- but life without a touch of the "mystical, or imaginary" is like looking at a fresco and breaking it down to individual brush strokes. 

    I didn't start any wars.  I'm not likely to start any wars. I'm sorry for the wars that were started in ANY gods name.  That's not what religion means to me, and if it did I wouldn't want any part of it. 

    I guess I want to see miracles in rainbows.  Which, admittedly not only illogical but corny as hell.  If that is my goal though though, knowing about light refraction is not going to help.  I also want to be perfect in kindness, love, and forgiveness.  I also want to know, even without evidence, that I would be good enough to sacrifice myself to save another person.  Whether Jesus exists literally or only as a personification of those traits doesn't really matter, that belief serves as a driving force when e=mc2 would not.

    Are you going to start mocking me with misspellings now?

    1. Evolution Guy profile image58
      Evolution Guyposted 8 years agoin reply to this

      No. I think you have spouted enough nonsense already. sad

      AWESOME! job on avoiding the points I made though. Well done.sad

      Bet Jesus is proud huh? sad

      1. MelissaBarrett profile image61
        MelissaBarrettposted 8 years agoin reply to this

        *sighs* which point did I not address again?  I thought I hit them all, but I didn't do a sentence to sentence call and respond so I might have missed one.

        1. Evolution Guy profile image58
          Evolution Guyposted 8 years agoin reply to this

          Dear me. This was not addressed to you. sad

          1. MelissaBarrett profile image61
            MelissaBarrettposted 8 years agoin reply to this

            Sorry, it quoted me so I assumed it was. I apologize for the assumption.

  11. livelonger profile image92
    livelongerposted 8 years ago

    "You may call me an agnostic, but I do not share the crusading spirit of the professional atheist whose fervor is mostly due to a painful act of liberation from the fetters of religious indoctrination received in youth. I prefer an attitude of humility corresponding to the weakness of our intellectual understanding of nature and of our own being."

    - Albert Einstein

  12. MelissaBarrett profile image61
    MelissaBarrettposted 8 years ago

    Cagsil, (And I know I'm going to get s**t for this) No one ever is allowed to have hurt feelings?  Science is one thing, but are we now arguing that humans shouldn't experience emotions either?

    1. Cagsil profile image79
      Cagsilposted 8 years agoin reply to this

      Melissa, no disrespect is meant. The problem stems from a number of people who truly don't understand their own life. If words matter that much, then people certainly have bigger insecurity issues with themselves than appears. That is my point.

      Example: If I told someone that they are ignorant and they got offended, then apparently they have issues to work out with themselves and truly don't understand their own life. Every person on the planet is ignorant in some manner and to claim that oneself is not ignorant in some capacity or another, is lying to themselves. To be "ignorant" is to be lacking something, which fits everyone. Therefore it is NOT an insult.

      1. MelissaBarrett profile image61
        MelissaBarrettposted 8 years agoin reply to this

        I agree completely that hurt feelings are the result of insecurities. Insecurities are part of the human condition however. 

        Couldn't, just possibly, the argument that hurt feelings are the fault of the receiver be used to excuse cruelty?  And if the insulter is aware of those issues, then what would the motivation be to insult those areas specifically?

        edit: And ignorance is also part of the human condition and everyone is ignorant of more than they are aware. I agree. 

        Without a long debate, which honestly I'm not up to right now-no sleep- could you tell me what specifically would be wrong with "On this point I believe you are unknowledgable"... in comparason to "You are ignorant" as a blanket statement?

        1. Cagsil profile image79
          Cagsilposted 8 years agoin reply to this

          The "human condition"? One only needs to understand their own life, which is what many do not understand.
          Melissa my dear lady, words only have power, when the receiver gives power to them.
          If a person is insecure in a certain area, but refuses to do anything about fixing the problem and then is insulted by the words of someone else...it is obvious that they gave power to the words and they are only to blame.

          One of the biggest problems in the world today is that too many people find it acceptable to BLAME OTHERS for issues they themselves create. Now, that is truly ignorant about understanding life.

          1. Eaglekiwi profile image76
            Eaglekiwiposted 8 years agoin reply to this

            I agree with your last statement.


            However some people are just not as strong or confident as others and I would not necessarliy say they are always ignorant.

            In that instance they lack self esteem (IMO)

            1. Cagsil profile image79
              Cagsilposted 8 years agoin reply to this

              Sure they are. They don't understand. They are closed minded or narrow minded. They have closed themselves off from learning. The learning they shut themselves out of is about themselves.

              They are not learning about themselves. We each are to be responsible and accountable for every aspect of our life. Each person can be whatever they choose to be. The human will is a free commodity, which works best based on effort.

              You don't have the will to live your life, based on a specific code of conduct, then accountability will be weighed upon you.

              Understanding your role in your own life is important. And, on the other hand, what affects and effect, do your actions have on your life and the lives of others? At what level do you actually give a damn?

              If it is not deeply enough, then you do not LOVE yourself and it show in your actions. You want to talk about responsibility of the individual, then it is important that every single person on the planet, should want to make impact on other people's life. It should benefit them and while you do it, you build a solid character level for yourself, which brings confidence and self-esteem.

              Yes, many people have self-esteem issues, but it is completely based on their environment, stemming from childhood. It goes to show you that people(many billions of them) have failed humanity in raising their children properly. Just look at many societies. All external influences are corrupted, so it boils down to the individual, learn for themselves, who is actually making the most sense.

              Religion and the belief in a god, automatically does a disservice to humanity. Not to mention, it's based on mysticism, which is based on dishonesty to begin with. Established FACT. It has been an established fact that mysticism isn't real and isn't based on reality. And, anything that not based on reality is dishonest.

              You supposedly serve a god, by actions and faith. When in fact, you should be serving humankind, to better it and ensure it's survival. Otherwise, your life has no real or true meaning. Sorry.

              1. Eaglekiwi profile image76
                Eaglekiwiposted 8 years agoin reply to this

                No you minimise humans Cags and fail to see ,that some people simply do not understand nor accept what you (or I) may see for them.

                Whose to say ,who is right anyway?

                They may be ignorant of some truth ,but if they dont know they are ignorant,whats your solution.

                Bang them on the head (verbally) so they get ..what?

                I am confident in many of my abilities and eager to try new things (at least once)..BUT I would need a generous dose of andrenalin to fly a plane ,or out swim a school a sharks.

                Not much hurts me for too long ,but I would be lying if I said nothing hurts me.

                That doesnt make me insecure ,it makes me human. A human with a mind AND emotions.

                1. Cagsil profile image79
                  Cagsilposted 8 years agoin reply to this

                  It's not what I see FOR them. I don't minimize humans, but rather they didn't minimize themselves or their actions in this world.
                  Truth does and it must be recognized without one's ego. There IS a right way to live life.
                  They do know they are ignorant, because they know they don't know everything. I had a poll on a hub once and it asked that very question- "Do you think you are ignorant about your own life?" and NOT one person said no. Only ego would say that they are not ignorant in some aspect of their own life. This would mean that they have figured out everything about their own life, yet their actions prove them wrong. Thus, proving ego did the talking.
                  This remark I am going to disregard, because it's been answered in a previous post.
                  Pointless comparison.
                  And, I wouldn't be lying. I know and understand myself, as well accept the path I have laid for my character, so my actions can be as honest as possible. I make no bones about my method of communication and I will not apologize, because the message is too important to the future of humanity. Not to mention, to the betterment of humanity.

                  1. Eaglekiwi profile image76
                    Eaglekiwiposted 8 years agoin reply to this

                    There are several ways to better humanity,primarily concentrating on the attitude and actions of ones self first and foremost.

                    Of course one can be loving ,honest,law abiding etc without ever attributing one single jot to Jesus Christ and the life giving power of His precious Holy Spirit.

                    Many have lived and died never accepting Him.

                    I have on the other hand accepted He is the creator and if he made me ,then he knows exactly how I am wired.
                    He even knows exactly how many hairs on my head!

          2. schoolgirlforreal profile image81
            schoolgirlforrealposted 8 years agoin reply to this

            You say " words only have power, when the receiver gives power to them.
            If a person is insecure in a certain area, but refuses to do anything about fixing the problem and then is insulted by the words of someone else...it is obvious that they gave power to the words and they are only to blame."

            What if we replace "words" with blows to the head? Would the receiver have to be insecure to actually receive the blows? No.
            And you may say the two are not the same, no they aren't but aren't both unnecessary? As Melissa said you could be more polite!!

            1. Cagsil profile image79
              Cagsilposted 8 years agoin reply to this

              That would be twisting the interpretation of what I said. Or "blows to the head", supposed "metaphor" for physical, mental or emotional "abuse"? If you mean physical? Then you're way of base. If you find it a mental, then again bigger issues are involved. If you find it emotional, the again bigger issues are involved. And, it stems from not understanding.
              Sure. They are.
              I stand by what I said above.
              Yes, I could be more polite. I choose not to change myself anymore, except via knowledge and wisdom. You want to challenge my character as a person? Bring it.... At least I am trying to make the world a better place.....Can YOU actually say the same? Or do you have more issues than you can handle?

              Deal with yourself, before you attempt to deal with me.

              1. schoolgirlforreal profile image81
                schoolgirlforrealposted 8 years agoin reply to this

                Yes! I am making the world a better place. If you read any of my hubs on getting rid of the stigma of depression, and explaining to people what it is and how to help others understand and deal with it, you would know I am very productive!

                http://hubpages.com/hub/Attitude-with-Latitude

        2. Eaglekiwi profile image76
          Eaglekiwiposted 8 years agoin reply to this

          Also the opposite can happen.

          A wise and secure person has no need to correct or pull down someone who is living in ignorance (according to ??, the status quo) because he/or she is confidently comfortable with their own space.

        3. Cagsil profile image79
          Cagsilposted 8 years agoin reply to this

          It wouldn't be "unknowledgable", considering it's not a word, but "lack knowledge". The word "Ignorant" says it in a more broader terminology, while not being specific to what aspect one is ignorant in.

          I personally, only speak from knowledge and wisdom. My beliefs are no one's concerns, unless they are family and/or friends. Even my friends, are not privy of my beliefs, because they have no need to be.

          On an individual level, life is easy and it is the people themselves that make it complicated. The simplistic nature of life is always overlooked, but constantly distorted by others.

          When I use the term "ignorant" is always with knowledge. The knowledge is on the subject of Life, in many aspects. Many of my hubs make it fairly simple to understand oneself and life.

  13. jstanley profile image60
    jstanleyposted 8 years ago

    Jesus said, "By this shall all men know that you are mine; if ye have love one for another."  So, it seems that the essence of religion is love and everything else is just mechanics.

  14. MelissaBarrett profile image61
    MelissaBarrettposted 8 years ago

    "The "human condition"? One only needs to understand their own life, which is what many do not understand."

    Fair enough smile

    "Melissa my dear lady, words only have power, when the receiver gives power to them."

    I agree, but there are quite a few factors that affect a person's ability to have the kind of strength needed to realize that.  Extreme bluntness would only amplify those issues. 


    If a person is insecure in a certain area, but refuses to do anything about fixing the problem and then is insulted by the words of someone else...it is obvious that they gave power to the words and they are only to blame.

    There is a whole world of in-between that I think you are discounting. The process of "fixing the problem" is not instantaneous. Especially if insecurity is deeply ingrained by mitigating factors.  If one is trying to get better, but hasn't reached well yet, then the "blunt honesty" test is bound to produce a failure.  That failure, in one who is still weak, could be devastating. 

    One of the biggest problems in the world today is that too many people find it acceptable to BLAME OTHERS for issues they themselves create. Now, that is truly ignorant about understanding life.

    On the opposite end, there are many people who contribute to the self-esteem deficits of others but never accept responsibility for it.  Abusive parents, rapists, etc.

    No disrespect meant Cagsil, but I'm going to err on the side of TRYING (in caps to accentuate my probable occasional failure)to be gentle whenever humanly possible.  I wont sacrifice honesty for it, but if I can choose gentler terms and still be understood I will use them.   

    I'll also understand my insecurities, understand where they come from, and work to fix them.  I don't have a timeline on that though. Some are easier to fix than others.

    Got any advice on how to do it?smile

    1. Cagsil profile image79
      Cagsilposted 8 years agoin reply to this

      Actually, I'm not discounting them. I am showing that the individual doesn't understand.
      That depends actually. I made an instant turn around in my life, after struggling years with issues which I refused to see a doctor.
      I understand that and I also understand that some of those factors are part and parcel, the underlying problem which came from their upbringing, because those who help in their upbringing, didn't know any better.
      It's not a failed test, but is a character test, which cannot pass or fail, but learn from.
      It's not a failure, as I said. It's a lesson of life to be learned from, so they can know themselves better.
      Of course, but those particular people are more ignorant than those who they commit atrocities against.
      That's understood. Everyone chooses their own method for communicating. 
      One question, you have identified the underlying cause? If so, then tell me. I am curious, to see if your perception would be the same as mine was. wink But, if I can help, then would gladly. smile

      1. schoolgirlforreal profile image81
        schoolgirlforrealposted 8 years agoin reply to this
        1. Cagsil profile image79
          Cagsilposted 8 years agoin reply to this

          That post wasn't FOR you. I was talking to Melissa.

          1. schoolgirlforreal profile image81
            schoolgirlforrealposted 8 years agoin reply to this

            I know. But I had to put my link in somewhere smile wink

  15. schoolgirlforreal profile image81
    schoolgirlforrealposted 8 years ago

    hmm

  16. MelissaBarrett profile image61
    MelissaBarrettposted 8 years ago

    "Actually, I'm not discounting them. I am showing that the individual doesn't understand."

    The point was more along the lines of there is a gulf between knowing something is a problem and having the tools to fix it.  A great many people are in various stages of this "in between"


    "That depends actually. I made an instant turn around in my life, after struggling years with issues which I refused to see a doctor."

    I amend my statement to "not generally instantaneous"


    "It's not a failed test, but is a character test, which cannot pass or fail, but learn from."

    Its a POV thing.  If one is struggling to change and is hit with "blunt honesty" and is not far enough in their journey to shrug it off, then it may cause a regression. 

    "It's not a failure, as I said. It's a lesson of life to be learned from, so they can know themselves better"

    Lessons can only be learned when one is capable of learning them. The type of emotional development that you are talking about assumes that one is limited in understanding in the beginning-which is probably true and enlightened on the other side, which is true again.  Enlightenment generally occurs in stages.  If one has not reached the stage to learn a lesson, it cannot be learned.  Attempting to teach that lesson repeatedly will not change their ability and will lead to frustration on both parts.

    "Of course, but those particular people are more ignorant than those who they commit atrocities against."

    I agree, but emotional acceptance of that knowledge will only come at the end of self development.  Until then, the effect on the victim of the atrocities is both normal and understandable.

    "One question, you have identified the underlying cause? If so, then tell me. I am curious, to see if your perception would be the same as mine was.  But, if I can help, then would gladly."

    Oh dear, that is a bigger question than you know.  I have a train full of insecurities with differencing  reasons for all that are in various stages of recovery.  I am quite certain there is a waiting list with a few more that I haven't recognized yet.

    The biggest blanket cause of my insecurities is a desire to be loved.  That gives those I care about an enormous ability to hurt me.  So yes, I am more open to criticism from those I care about than strangers. I'm addressing that by learning to evaluate the truthfulness of their comments.  That requires self-knowledge that I am still acquiring.

    Major areas of sensitivity are attacks on my parenting skills: causes include guilt from the death of my son, the knowledge that I haven't always been the best mom-and associated guilt from that- and the general suspicion that 2 out of 4 children having disabilities is indicative of either faulty genetics or some form of environmental cause that can be traced back to me.

    Somewhat related are the attacks on my daughter and her disability.  It hurts for me to hear her called retarded even though I am well aware that autism and MR are two separate things.  I think that somewhere there is an over-abundance of empathy-  It doesn't hurt her yet, but one day it will and I know that. Also a refusal on my part to accept that she has to be in any way limited.

    I am insecure about my appearance because I am aware of what I look like, able to make comparative judgments on where I stand, and saddened by the knowledge that I lose in most of these judgments.  I want to be physically beautiful, I'm not, and I wish not to be reminded of that.  I have accepted it though.  There are some abuse issues there as well.

    I am insecure about my intelligence.  I know logically that I am intelligent. I have been presented with opinions to the opposite for so long that it has eroded the emotional knowledge of that. Yes, it is because I gave those words power.  I am in the process of rectifying that.  Someone who is close to me insulting my intelligence still makes me question-strangers don't bother me any more-

    And on the lighter side-I cant cook or make coffee and I clap on one and three.  It used to bother me to reminded of that-- I got over it.

    So yes, it is my insecurities that open the power of insults to hurt me but I am not quite yet strong enough to stop it.

    1. Eaglekiwi profile image76
      Eaglekiwiposted 8 years agoin reply to this

      Truthfully you have just described the amazing worth of your soul.

      Above rubies ,more precious than Gold smile

      Is it not the most beautiful thing when a human being is honest and unafraid to display that honesty.

      Far from being insecure ,in my opinion you represent someone who deals with reality face on, tears,fear ,laughter and joy!

      I find many of your thoughts very inspiring smile Thank-you!

      1. Evolution Guy profile image58
        Evolution Guyposted 8 years agoin reply to this

        How odd that you hate it when atheists are honest. Oh well. sad

        1. Jerami profile image67
          Jeramiposted 8 years agoin reply to this

          How odd that you hate it when theists are honest. Oh well.

          1. Evolution Guy profile image58
            Evolution Guyposted 8 years agoin reply to this

            I have never met an honest theist. sad

            That is the point. wink

            1. Jerami profile image67
              Jeramiposted 8 years agoin reply to this

              Have you ever looked for an honest one? 

                    If you haven't ?

                   We always find what we are looking for!



                  NUFF said.

              1. Evolution Guy profile image58
                Evolution Guyposted 8 years agoin reply to this

                This is a lie. Please stop lying at me. All you are doing is defending your beliefs. You are not trying to converse with me. What a shock. A dishonest theist. Thanks for making my point.

                1. Jerami profile image67
                  Jeramiposted 8 years agoin reply to this

                  i saw some words I consider as your come back (experenciensed Debater)
                  but i didn't seee you say anything.

                  1. Evolution Guy profile image58
                    Evolution Guyposted 8 years agoin reply to this

                    Of course you ignored what I said as usual. Didn't really expect much else. You are too busy attacking anyone whop dares to say your beliefs are nonsense. wink

            2. MelissaBarrett profile image61
              MelissaBarrettposted 8 years agoin reply to this

              I think I'm pretty honest.  Not saying I've never been dishonest- but in the grand scheme of things I'm probably more honest than most people

              Wanna have coffee?

              1. Jerami profile image67
                Jeramiposted 8 years agoin reply to this

                Not to be picking on ya ... (Love Ya)  but it is much easier to be honest when we keep our words few.

              2. Evolution Guy profile image58
                Evolution Guyposted 8 years agoin reply to this

                I would love to, but I think we are pretty far apart. One of these days I am going to win the lottery and meet all the people I met online in person. big_smile

                Claiming god as fact (as most people who believe it do) is dishonesty. Most theists do not claim it is "just a belief" - they claim some rational or scientific basis. This is intellectual dishonesty.

                When you argue with me that you have a rational belief - you are being dishonest - with yourself in the first instance, because there can be no rational belief in a god. Your rationale is that it is better to believe an infinity:one shot than not believe because you might be right. This is not rational thinking. You have fooled yourself that it is. You may be honest in other areas, but you are not being honest with yourself.

                This is why people who believe in a god have been persuaded to do so many awful things. That is not to say they cannot be persuaded by other means such as patriotism, nationalism etc.

                Also - the term theist does not really apply to you. You are a self professed christian monotheist.

              3. schoolgirlforreal profile image81
                schoolgirlforrealposted 8 years agoin reply to this

                Hey Melissa, smile You are as flexible as they come, willing and able to be understanding on the highest level, these "others" as I'll describe them, have personalites like sharp pointy stones, and remind me of a person I talk to on the phone, who is ONE SIDED, and who pretends to listen but only wants to say what they want to say! How narrowminded and pathetic and totally lacking of good manners.
                That's what I say, I applaud you for the way you handle yourself, most "Christians" (There's that "evil" word again, because I looked up the word atheist and found that many lol think everyone else, that is anyone with religious beliefs are responsible for ALL the problems of humanity like Bill Maher lol and we all know that's impossible, just like when a couple fights, it's always a % of each who are at fault, maybe a poor example, IDK lol ) But most Christians here bend over backwards like you with politeness and patience and are refutedly ignored because "they" the atheists on here, or whomever they are, will not listen like a one sided conversation and cannot WAIT lol to say their piece lol hahahahahahahhahaha . Again http://hubpages.com/hub/Attitude-with-Latitude

                1. getitrite profile image76
                  getitriteposted 8 years agoin reply to this

                  As long as she can, somehow, dismiss some of the things that doesn't support "Goddunnit!"




                  Actually, most of the Christians on here are like you...angry, bitter, hostile, and unwilling to listen to simple common sense, when it comes to addressing their fraudulent and irrational beliefs.

                  1. MelissaBarrett profile image61
                    MelissaBarrettposted 8 years agoin reply to this

                    That wasn't my intention at all.  If anything, I conceded far more points than I successfully defended. And the only thing I actually dismissed was one-very small-point in a discussion with Cagsil.  And yes, I did state that there was no argument he could have provided on that ONE point that would have convinced me. 

                    I'm sorry getritrite, but I believe your assumptions of me are wrong. 

                    @ Cagsil- still not enough coffee.

                2. MelissaBarrett profile image61
                  MelissaBarrettposted 8 years agoin reply to this

                  I'm not very good at accepting complements, but thank you smile I need to thank Kiwi too.

    2. Cagsil profile image79
      Cagsilposted 8 years agoin reply to this

      I understand that Melissa. And, the only thing I am attempting to do is help add clarity to things that appear to distorted or are being manipulated by other people.
      Actually, many people are instantaneously insulted, at the drop of hat. Why? Too sensitive. Why? Insecurity with themselves.
      The only point of view is character? Your individual character. The improvement of said character helps self esteem. Increases in self esteem drops insecurities.
      Only if they let themselves wallow in it, which is why words shouldn't factor. They cannot accept themselves yet, therefore they cannot accept others. It leads to intolerance.
      Everyone is capable of learning, they need to get better control of their learning process. To do that, one needs to always keep an open mind and have the ability to see beyond oneself(accept humility). Humility always leaves a sour after-taste, but always gives a lesson to be learned.
      Learning leads to knowledge and knowledge leads to wisdom discerned truth, when the ego isn't in the way.
      It all stems from seeing beyond oneself. If one cannot see beyond oneself, then one becomes their own false truth. Truth isn't subjective, it is objective. And, as I have said before and I will say again, there IS a universal truth among human beings. There IS a collective truth that exists and it is known when seen(recognized without ego).
      I am sure, but as long as communication is honest between both, the message will get across.
      Wrong. Self development is only ended by death.
      Normal? and Understandable? It is actually controlled by outside influences, that love to distort and manipulate others. And, it's no longer acceptable, to be normal or understandable. Not when the actions of ONE person can extinguish billions of lives.
      I'm sure. I had my share.
      Then you don't love yourself. Otherwise, you would know that you can be loved and love others immensely.
      If they truly cared about you, then they will not purposely hurt you. If they do, then their actions shows you that they do not love you or themselves for that matter.
      Learn what you can from it, then move on forward. Use it to improve upon yourself. It is all you can do.
      Acceptance of self and learning from previous experience is your only way forward. No guilt and no forgiveness required. Accept the past, learn from it to free your guilt. As for the likelihood it is genetics? Don't know. However, if the environment was better than it is, then circumstance would better and have different results. This I am sure/positive of.
      I came across a woman in my research and she was autistic. She overcame it and went on to lead a very productive life. So, I know it isn't actually a disability. It's how she develops forward it what matters. The quality of her life, which she should know, she can have with effort and support.
      It sounds like you're living in your own past? I wrote a hub that might help? It's called "The Past, The Present, or The Future- Which Controls Your View?".
      Intelligence of self is irrelevant. One shouldn't need to measure oneself by intelligence. I don't consider myself an intelligent person. To me, my intelligence level doesn't matter, because I have the confidence that I have discerned truth from the knowledge I've gained. Truth cannot be wrong.
      This is the acceptance of self process. smile
      Good, but don't give up on improving yourself though.
      Of course not. I can see that, but if I can help, then I want to. smile

      1. schoolgirlforreal profile image81
        schoolgirlforrealposted 8 years agoin reply to this

        Like Melissa said, many people don't understand your logic actually and if you were more assertive rather than agressive, you MIGHT just be influential.  But instead you are wasting you breath thinking you can convert everyone here -who's not in agreement with your thoughts- when it's an utter waste of time, because with agressiveness....(part of psychology) the recepient is repulsed and drawn away whereby with assertiveness, by saying something nice and then giving your point, the recipient is much more likely to receive the thought and think on it.  Basic psychology my friend

      2. MelissaBarrett profile image61
        MelissaBarrettposted 8 years agoin reply to this

        Okay Cagsil-  Some partial responses from bunches far back.  I'm two pots of coffee and a day of swimming with my spawn down.

        "MelissaBarrett wrote:
        I amend my statement to "not generally instantaneous"

        Cagsil wrote: Actually, many people are instantaneously insulted, at the drop of hat. Why? Too sensitive. Why? Insecurity with themselves."

        Miscommunication:  I meant that a fix was not "generally instantaneous" even if yours was.  We were debating the time it took to fix things.   


        MelissaBarrett wrote:
        If one is struggling to change and is hit with "blunt honesty" and is not far enough in their journey to shrug it off, then it may cause a regression.

        Cagsil wrote: Only if they let themselves wallow in it, which is why words shouldn't factor. They cannot accept themselves yet, therefore they cannot accept others. It leads to intolerance.

        Once again, you cant expect them to be there if they aren't there.  If they were strong enough to ignore... oh say you smile ...  then they would be far enough in the process to not fail the test.  Its a catch 22.

        "MelissaBarrett wrote:
        Enlightenment generally occurs in stages.  If one has not reached the stage to learn a lesson, it cannot be learned.

        Cagsil wrote: It all stems from seeing beyond oneself. If one cannot see beyond oneself, then one becomes their own false truth. Truth isn't subjective, it is objective. And, as I have said before and I will say again, there IS a universal truth among human beings. There IS a collective truth that exists and it is known when seen(recognized without ego)."

        On this one point, I call bullshit.  smile You didn't address the point.  It is a very nice answer, but it in no apparent way relates to the point.  Concede that knowledge is either instantaneous or comes in stages.  It has to be one or the other.  If it is instantaneous, then no further examination is necessary.  If it is a process then you must allow for the time the process takes. 

        "MelissaBarrett wrote:
        I agree, but emotional acceptance of that knowledge will only come at the end of self development.

        Cagsil wrote: Wrong. Self development is only ended by death"

        To be more specific, emotional acceptance of knowledge comes only after the knowledge is completely integrated.  At that point, there would be no further need to address that area unless the knowledge changes.  I'm not talking about all knowledge, just knowledge relating to one area of development.  There does come a point when individual areas of knowledge have been completely learned.  Expecting emotional acceptance IN THOSE AREAS comes only after that point. 

        "MelissaBarrett wrote:
        Until then, the effect on the victim of the atrocities is both normal and understandable.

        Normal? and Understandable? It is actually controlled by outside influences, that love to distort and manipulate others. And, it's no longer acceptable, to be normal or understandable. Not when the actions of ONE person can extinguish billions of lives."

        It is completely acceptable for a victim of trauma to be traumatized.  I'm not sure what else I can even say here.  Are they eventually going to need to seek help for it?  Yes.  Should we discount that effect because their pain is their fault because they let rape or abuse "get to them"?  That's not even a consideration.  Not for me anyway.

        And on this subject...  And just to clarify your position... would repeatedly telling them they were raped be acceptable because it was the truth.  And to what degree?  Is it something like "Hey Jill, you were raped so you are illogical.  Its your fault you are ignorant of this because your ego is getting in the way.  It's your fault for being emotionally scarred by it because you gave your rapist the power to hurt your feelings.  Why are you crying?  Its the truth.  Geez, how irrational...

        That really wasn't meant to be argumentative, but I really need clarification on exactly how far your beliefs go.  If there is no room for mercy or charity in speech than I respect that you have your opinions, but they are too far from where I am to be able to understand them.  Consider it my ego wink

        Just for the record, rape isn't a personal issue for me.  No hidden agenda for that topic.

        "MelissaBarrett wrote:
        The biggest blanket cause of my insecurities is a desire to be loved.

        Cagsil wrote:  Then you don't love yourself. Otherwise, you would know that you can be loved and love others immensely."

        I have that knowledge.  Having the knowledge and even logically accepting the knowledge is not the same as feeling it. (for me)  I'm working on it. smile

        "MelissaBarrett wrote:
        That gives those I care about an enormous ability to hurt me.

        Cagsil wrote:  If they truly cared about you, then they will not purposely hurt you. If they do, then their actions shows you that they do not love you or themselves for that matter."

        Again, have the logical knowledge, working on emotional acceptance.

        "Cagsil wrote: Acceptance of self and learning from previous experience is your only way forward. No guilt and no forgiveness required. Accept the past, learn from it to free your guilt. As for the likelihood it is genetics? Don't know. However, if the environment was better than it is, then circumstance would better and have different results. This I am sure/positive of."

        Do I really have to type it again?  smile As far as the guilt... it can be a transient motivating factor... and for now I'm ok with using it as such.  And by environment, I meant my body/womb.  These are thoughts I really do need to finish fleshing out all the way as the knowledge is needed for future decisions.  So this one I need to wallow around in a little more.  During that time, when I am unsure, I will be more likely to be hurt by comments about it.Would it not be cruel for someone to continue to berate me for it, if I am actively seeking to change it/learn from it?

        "Cagsil wrote: I came across a woman in my research and she was autistic. She overcame it and went on to lead a very productive life. So, I know it isn't actually a disability. It's how she develops forward it what matters. The quality of her life, which she should know, she can have with effort and support."

        Actually, I'm pretty sure it is a disability.  The degree in which it can be overcome is unpredictable.  It is possible to live a productive life for some, for others it is unlikely.  There are varying degrees of Autism, and there-right now-is no way to know where Lily stands.  (She is 30 months old)  My insecurities lay in not knowing where to draw the line between acceptance of her limitations and efforts to change them.  As I can-in part-anticipate your response to this, let me pre-argue that Yes, there are limits and trying to push a child past them IS cruelty.  My insecurity comes from not having knowledge that, at this point, there is no way to obtain.  So yes, my feelings will be hurt by either "Melissa, accept that she is going to be institutionalized" or "There's nothing wrong with her that a good ass beating wouldn't fix" Both of which are actual quotes.

        "Cagsil wrote: It sounds like you're living in your own past? I wrote a hub that might help? It's called "The Past, The Present, or The Future- Which Controls Your View?"

        Thank you, I'll look at it.  This is actually a weird one... yes, I was abused and yes I'm still living in the past... Working on it.  (The story is so pathetic, I'll not even address it)  He still attempts to verbally abuse to this day, and I can very easily ignore HIM.  I can ignore strangers.  I am just saddened by my own opinion which is based in self-knowledge.

        If any specific points from that post are not address, then either they are being addressed in another post/sub discussion or you can assume that I concur and understand.

        1. Cagsil profile image79
          Cagsilposted 8 years agoin reply to this

          Melissa, let's differentiate age, since that apparently needs to be known. If you're making reference to children, which I think you are, which is why there is a miscommunication in our conversation. Children constant re-evaluate themselves many times over, constantly assessing themselves, but how they go about it, could be a problem. However, I am not in a position to speak about children and most of the time, people tell me that since I don't have kids, then I apparently don't know what it is like to be a parent.

          If you're talking about adults, and they cannot deal with bluntness, then they certainly have lingering issues with themselves.
          One cannot fail a character test based on ignorance ingrained into human nature. There is nothing to fail. Only something to learn.
          Learning is instantaneous for some and for some it comes in stages. When people see beyond their own ego, they have a more open mind. Ego selectively dictates what IS learned.

          You can say whatever you like about it, but it's truth. It's the primary reason for why "you are you're own worse enemy" always applies. When Ego is in play, then it becomes your enemy, because it stops you from learning, growing as a person and expanding your imagination, due to an open mind. You want to call what I say "Bullshit"? It's truth regardless of whether you like it or not.

          Point addressed.
          Answered. 
          You can have emotional acceptance, but if one doesn't understand change or adaptation, then you will have a person who acts out of pure emotion than rational. You integrated the knowledge all you want, but it doesn't close the door on ignorance. How people process knowledge is key? To be at peace and balance is how you change yourself to adapt to your environment, both socially interactive and individually. There are only two forms of thinking, which covers all communications. Rational and Irrational.
          When was the last time YOU completely learned about any individual aspect of Life? I have run down over 1000 in my mind, areas of thought, on many aspects of Life and I don't find myself with your confidence. 

          Apparently, much of what is considered "normal" is changing. This is obvious and the only area of Life you have to look at is Rights. Normal people kill people? for what reason? And, no it is not completely acceptable for a victim of trauma to be traumatized. People respond to trauma differently and not everyone is traumatized by the experience.
          Those who are traumatized should be helped. There isn't any doubt about it. Remember, outside influences at play here with regards to what classifies as "traumatized".
          Rape and Abuse are different aspects. Therefore, different rules apply, same as the Laws. These two are political issues and influences. Why you brought this up to begin with? I'm not sure. I doesn't line up with previous things mentioned. Thus, I don't see a connection?
          Why someone would remind someone else that they were raped? Is beyond reason, it's an act solely based on stupidity. It's outright disrespectful. There is a point or a line, you don't cross and that line is basic on character of the individual. Someone who is pathetic enough to remind some woman that she was raped, is absolutely clueless on many levels.
          Do you see how stupid that person looks? And, I explained my position in above comment.
          We all have faults. It's our acceptance of those faults, which helps us learn and grow. I read enough people and the words they lay down as their words(which is mostly conscious thoughts typed).
          Ego isn't honest. It cannot be, simply because it's selfish. Being selfish isn't being honest
          The above statement is another yet stupid and disrespectful statement. However, the resilient nature of the individual human, is based on their will. So, in essence, emotional scars? Can be overcame. What you learned from the experience and how you let it affect you, is under control by your will. You have accept that control. It either controls the individual or the individual takes control of their life? Some manage a balanced life, but many never recover.

          Well, I guess you could started with this statement before introducing it into the conversation, which had nothing to do with rape or abuse.
          I understand. I've told many people on here. I've learned to love myself and since doing so, it has opened me to a unique clarity about life. I've learned I can be mad at people, but still love that person, even if the person is a stranger. I've learned more in the last 10 of my life than I did in the first 33 years.

          Oh, okay. smile
          But, that's not the environment I am talking about outside influences. The ones that cause undue stress and where it stems from, and why.
          Only you holds you back.
          You control your own self improvement. Is it cruel to berate you about it? It depends on how long the status remains stagnant. If you say you have been working on it for 10 years already? Then, someone could possibly say something to upset you. But, if the truth is 10 years and you've done nothing do move forward? Then you have bigger issues and more pressing issues.
          Yes, I am aware.
          I only mentioned the story as a positive. I personally know nothing much about autism. My knowledge is to know that it has something to do with the activity of the right-side of the brain. That's about all.
          Take it day by day and see what happens. Her limitations? Too many factors. See what initiative she takes in her own learning. Her efforts should direct the course. smile
          I don't understand. What knowledge, which is available to humankind, cannot you not obtain? It sounds like you need to change your view?
          A lot of what we learn is self-knowledge. You teaching yourself.
          lol lol Nice way to end a post. lol

  17. MelissaBarrett profile image61
    MelissaBarrettposted 8 years ago

    @ Cagsil

    I will reply to everything else in the morning, I promise. Beyond my emotions and my belief in God, however, my thinking process is being destroyed by lack of sleep.  You made some very good points a few that I disagree with and one or two that need clarification to me. 

    The only one I'm going to address now is:

    "Everyone is capable of learning, they need to get better control of their learning process. To do that, one needs to always keep an open mind and have the ability to see beyond oneself(accept humility). Humility always leaves a sour after-taste, but always gives a lesson to be learned."

    I agree that most everyone (excluding those with barriers beyond this conversation) is capable of learning... however not everyone is capable of learning a particular piece of knowledge at a particular time...

    For example-  If I was trying to teach my kids a particular concept--- we'll go with multiplication-- They must first learn addition.  To learn addition, they must first learn counting.  To learn counting they must first learn number identification...

    It would be cruel for me to judge my kids ability to learn based on the inability to learn a concept, that AT THAT POINT they do not have the foundation to comprehend.  Calling them ignorant-which technically they would be-- would be abuse.

    1. Cagsil profile image79
      Cagsilposted 8 years agoin reply to this

      Only two choices exist, either learn or choose not to learn.
      Okay, this is understood. It is a process, but truth cannot be learned(discerned) with ego in place. The "ego" is the most damaging aspect of oneself. When 'refusal' comes into play, ego is at it's highest peak. Thus, choices become limited.
      Again, calling them ignorant isn't a judgment. It means, they lack something. That is all. It is not abuse either. It's truth. I understand what you are saying, but if you are teaching children, in your example and they cannot grasp it, then apparently it isn't clear enough for them to understand it. Which means, the teacher isn't being clear enough in the explanation or has taken the wrong steps in their development.

      Your example, you used mathematics, specifically multiplication. And, you stepped backwards, to show the process which they have to learn first and had you covered the previous steps, then multiplication should be simple, if not, then it falls on your inability to explain. Nothing more.

      I use as many words as I can to explain my position, my knowledge and the wisdom I have gained. My communication method is simple and forward.

      1. MelissaBarrett profile image61
        MelissaBarrettposted 8 years agoin reply to this

        I'm not sure we are on the same page.

        Just to restate:  I agree that ego is a barrier to learning, I believe that we give other people the power to hurt with our words.

        And yes, if I was teaching my children to multiply before the other steps-then the fault would be mine.

        But their ignorance of multiplication would still not be their fault.  The would be unprepared to learn it, no matter how many times I called them ignorant.  Even if they accepted their ignorance and put forth an honest effort to learn multiplication they would fail--because they do not have the foundation to learn.

        So, yes by my definition, repeatedly pointing out a fault-even if it is true- is abuse.  If one cannot change that fault at that point then no good can come from it. 

        In additon, there are certain words that carry power in and of themselves.  Ignorant is one of them.  I would not expect my children to be able to separate the semantics between "stupid" and "ignorant" until much later in life.  It, again, would be assuming an ability that they do not have the foundation of knowledge or emotional capacity to accept. 

        Just for the record here, and for the sake of honesty, there is no argument that you could give to convince me that calling my children ignorant would be acceptable. I feel that it would be abusive. If that must be irrational, than so be it.

        1. Cagsil profile image79
          Cagsilposted 8 years agoin reply to this

          It would fall on both.
          That depends on how they go about learning it. You are not their only available source. Self improvement is not something that can be truly taught. It is something we must self-teach, so as to understand ourselves.
          No it is not.
          Again, in search for an answer to why it is a fault, is the life lesson each of us must learn. So, good does come from it. A fault can be overcame.
          Yes, certain words do have power, however, which ones and what power, is dictated by positive and negative impact.
          And, HOW you let the power of that word affect you, is based on your perception- positive light or negative light.
          No semantics actually.
          Maybe it is YOU who are underestimating their ability? Age plays a factor, so I cannot say "yes" or "no" as to their ability.
          I didn't say call your children ignorant. It's only a word they need to understand, which will remain with them, until the day they die. No one can know everything there is to know, because much is unknown still. It appears as if you're giving too much power to the term. wink

  18. Jerami profile image67
    Jeramiposted 8 years ago

    When will You realize that we all have the chance to create that which we want to see.


        Like you have said a million times before.


        why don't theists claim the blame or our own actions.


        I agree!      No matter who ..YOU/me .. happen to be.

  19. Jerami profile image67
    Jeramiposted 8 years ago

    Evolution Guy wrote
    I would love to, but I think we are pretty far apart

    = - - = -=

       Now that would be a mericle!     please do!

       separating ourselves could be seen as a a good thing to those left behind.

    1. Evolution Guy profile image58
      Evolution Guyposted 8 years agoin reply to this

      Which is my argument with your religion Jerami. It separates us from ourselves and those around us.

      1. Jerami profile image67
        Jeramiposted 8 years agoin reply to this

        That is what i wish "YOU" could see.    i don't care if here is an organization for YOU and I to hide behind ot not.



            Organizations don't do NUTTIN ,,,,    individuals do.


            Don't matter about democrat, republican, babtist or protistant, wiccan, or homo or homophobic.   "WE" do it to ourselves.


            I wish you would stand up and admitt thay   "You" cause conflict  ON  PURPOSE   cause unlike everyone else   YOU think you have justification.

        1. Evolution Guy profile image58
          Evolution Guyposted 8 years agoin reply to this

          LOL Semantics Jerami. But as you wish. YOU cause division and conflicts. Why do YOU insist on arguing and defending your religious nonsense? Why do YOU fight when I point put the division it causes when YOU push your religion?

          1. Jerami profile image67
            Jeramiposted 8 years agoin reply to this

            YOU don't even know what I believe yet you accuse ME    of causing conflicts cause I don't agree with you.


               Who is doing what ??    I await your answer yet i know what it will be ,,,,   cause you are you and I am me.


                For that you accuse me for that which you do,

            1. Evolution Guy profile image58
              Evolution Guyposted 8 years agoin reply to this

              No Jerami. YOU are the one making the claims of something. I am saying it is nonsense. See how that works? YOU make a claim - I say YOU are causing conflict. YOU defend the nonsense. Read any history book. YOUR religion has been doing it since day one. sad

              1. Jerami profile image67
                Jeramiposted 8 years agoin reply to this

                And what clain is that which I am making or which you seem to be loosing breath over.

                1. Evolution Guy profile image58
                  Evolution Guyposted 8 years agoin reply to this

                  Well - I am not overly impressed with your defeatist, nothing to be done, the end times are a-comin' because it is prophesied in the bible nonsense. That can't be healthy for anyone. wink :

                  1. Jerami profile image67
                    Jeramiposted 8 years agoin reply to this

                    I am sorry ....   but you are Ssoooooo    full of yourself that you have been blinded by the light.

      2. schoolgirlforreal profile image81
        schoolgirlforrealposted 8 years agoin reply to this

        Yes and you can't get past it, It's like racism, you don't want to associate with that person, prejudice.

  20. MelissaBarrett profile image61
    MelissaBarrettposted 8 years ago

    @evolution

    "Your rationale is that it is better to believe an infinity:one shot than not believe because you might be right. This is not rational thinking. You have fooled yourself that it is. You may be honest in other areas, but you are not being honest with yourself."

    *smiles* actually, that is Pascal's argument.  It's the one we chose to debate and the one I conceded on-- I also listed James' argument in the post that started it, and we never even got there wink  My personal reasons were listed later with the admittance that logic really didn't have anything to do with it.  There's the whole philosophical debate over whether a conscious choice to suspend disbelief is, in and of itself, an irrational choice. Especially when the choice is necessary to achieve intangible benefits.  That debate could possibly last for DAYS. smile

    I'm all for the "I believe this way until I don't" standpoint and I'm okay with being proven wrong.  I'll probably not become a nonbeliever, but it's nice to narrow down my reasons for believing.

    1. Evolution Guy profile image58
      Evolution Guyposted 8 years agoin reply to this

      James' argument is not really worth discussing, because it misses one crucial point. And that point is that believing based on his reasoning is damaging and causes cognitive dissonance. It also makes certain assumptions regarding "truth," that are clearly from a theists perspective. i.e. - some one defending an irrational belief in something that is unproven and has no evidence for. Also - like Pascal, it ignores the infinite number of possible gods.

      The best argument I have heard is Descartes', but if you read between the lines - it is clear he did not believe. wink

      1. Jerami profile image67
        Jeramiposted 8 years agoin reply to this

        If you were 10% as open minded as you would like for us to believe you to be ??????


            You would see the gaping whole in your arguement.

        1. Evolution Guy profile image58
          Evolution Guyposted 8 years agoin reply to this

          What is that Jerami?

          1. Jerami profile image67
            Jeramiposted 8 years agoin reply to this

            don't you see?


               Whenever YOU don't like the look on someones face, YOU don't believe anything that they say?

               And yet you accuse ME

            1. Evolution Guy profile image58
              Evolution Guyposted 8 years agoin reply to this

              Please stop lying about me Jerami. I don't believe what they say about your Invisible Super Being. But - that is because it is irrational nonsense that I have investigated for myself, not because I don't like the look on their face. YOU cause the conflicts by spreading nonsense Jerami. All I do is ask that you stop. Then you fight about it. sad

            2. schoolgirlforreal profile image81
              schoolgirlforrealposted 8 years agoin reply to this

              Isn't it funny Jermai! So laughable! lol lol lol
              so sad and blinded!

      2. MelissaBarrett profile image61
        MelissaBarrettposted 8 years agoin reply to this

        LMAO, arguing a theory in which you don't personally prescribe is also a learning lesson.

        Pascals argument was thoroughly dismissed decades ago smile

        1. Evolution Guy profile image58
          Evolution Guyposted 8 years agoin reply to this

          There is no possible reasonable argument. Even the bible says this. You must believe by faith alone. Then when people try to argue a case - they end up fighting because people will not accept their irrational, illogical arguments.

          A god is a logical impossibility. The Christian version is particularly destructive and makes utterly no sense. That is why believers defend it so forcefully. They are trying to convince themselves and - a large part of society has had enough of this all pervasive assumption of a god that means "atheist," is a dirty word.

          1. MelissaBarrett profile image61
            MelissaBarrettposted 8 years agoin reply to this

            I'm not sure that there is no possible reasonable argument-- I haven't tried them all out smile  But yes, my personal beliefs are, as stated, a selective irrationality.  I also subscribe to a little bit of semantics in the definition of debating.  To me there is a very large difference between trying to convert and trying to have a conversation.  I'm not trying to change anyone's thinking but-possibly-my own.  I am not sure that I can think of a case where trying to convert a non-believer is a good idea. ~again that is a personal belief~

            So, I agree with you. I also agree that wars in the name of God are about the most illogical and destructive forces out there.  Even allowing for the belief that conversion is like some sort of referral program that God has running-- with afterlife as the reward--true belief is never achieved at the end of a sword.   The only thing gained is the very egotistical affirmation that you have beaten "the heathens" so you must have Gods favor now. If I believed that Christ worked like that, then I would be out of there.

            The problem with Christianity isn't so much the belief in Christ- who was by most accounts a pretty cool guy- but rather a large group of individuals who have sought personal gain by using Christ as an excuse.  In short, its not the God... its the religion.

            That being said, there is a great amount of good that has and can come from a belief in Christ.  Artwork, science (yes science, like it or not the catholic church was pretty much responsible for the progression of science for 300 plus years) medicine (a great many hospitals-including St. Jude-- are supported or have been supported by the church) and a whole host of humanitarian efforts.  (Think salvation army)

            In addition, there is great potential for individual growth that comes from aspiring to become like Christ.  The problem comes in believing that you have succeeded.

            I tend to think about it like electricity.  Electricity is beneficial to lots of people, but is is also used to kill  people all the time.  Its not electricity's fault that it is being used as a weapon.

            1. Evolution Guy profile image58
              Evolution Guyposted 8 years agoin reply to this

              No Invisible Super Being Believers = No Religion. wink

              1. MelissaBarrett profile image61
                MelissaBarrettposted 8 years agoin reply to this

                No electricity=No electric chair wink

  21. Jerami profile image67
    Jeramiposted 8 years ago

    I know I said good night a while ago.....

       But i got a few more minutes to waste.


       Come on with it.

      Prove to me that you have NOT been blinded by your own light.

    1. Evolution Guy profile image58
      Evolution Guyposted 8 years agoin reply to this

      Jerami. You are the one making the claims. YOU prove the nonsense you spout. YOU. YOU are the one so blinded. sad

  22. MelissaBarrett profile image61
    MelissaBarrettposted 8 years ago

    @Cagsil  LMAO... Tomorrow.  After coffee.

  23. getitrite profile image76
    getitriteposted 8 years ago

    I have accepted that the Flying Spaghetti Monster is my creator, with the life giving power of His precious Holy Ramen Noodles. smile

    1. MelissaBarrett profile image61
      MelissaBarrettposted 8 years agoin reply to this

      I love ramen noodles.  They are indeed precious.  Especially the ones with the dehydrated peas.

      1. Eaglekiwi profile image76
        Eaglekiwiposted 8 years agoin reply to this

        The noodles are fine ,its the added perservatives and added salt that will kill ya wink

    2. Eaglekiwi profile image76
      Eaglekiwiposted 8 years agoin reply to this

      If it makes you a better person ,hey who I am to judge tongue

    3. Eaglekiwi profile image76
      Eaglekiwiposted 8 years agoin reply to this

      Indoctrination roll

  24. schoolgirlforreal profile image81
    schoolgirlforrealposted 8 years ago

    @Evolution Guy,

    this link is for YOU.  I meant to put it in before.  You spoke of how I needed to see a professional lol

    Here is my hub on people like me who have won Nobel  prizes, abolished slavery, etc.

    Enjoy

    http://hubpages.com/hub/A-List-of-Famou … -Illnesses

  25. RecoverToday profile image83
    RecoverTodayposted 8 years ago

    I rarely come to these forums, but I find it amazing how individuals love to engage in endless debates over religion. Everyone wants to prove their point and disprove the other. Why is that important?  It appears that possibly, it gives one a sense of superiority, maybe?

      Then we see quibbling and insulting, demeaning each other's beliefs in some way or another, which ends up nowhere but useless words out in cyber space. How is this productive?

      The answer is easy: it's counter-productive. So why waste anymore time debating the same thing over and over when you already know what the outcome will be?

  26. IntimatEvolution profile image79
    IntimatEvolutionposted 8 years ago

    Getitrite how do you know there is no soul?  Do you scientific proof there isn't one?  I like to read your statement resources backing up your positioning that people don't have souls.  I work in a operating room.  Just in the short timespan working as a scrub tech I have seen firsthand the life source of a body vaporize. When that moment occurs the skin immediately becomes dull and the facial features of that person immediately become drawn in like somebody had just sucked out everything.  The body loses a certain amount of weight in nothingness upon that moment and it is a medical fact that there is no other reason for that to occur.  It is not due to fluids or air.  So I'd like to read something factual supporting your statement to see the contrary findings.  I think the human body is amazing machine.  It fascinated me.

    1. getitrite profile image76
      getitriteposted 8 years agoin reply to this

      No, but I don't have scientific proof that there isn't a tooth fairy either.  Kinda pointless.



      The fact that there is no proof of a soul is sufficient enough.  Your "evidence" and position are based, purely, on conjecture.

       

      God...I mean...good for you...but, of course, completely irrelevant as evidence of anything.



      The same thing happened to two of our dogs, that were run over by cars, when I was a youth.  That implies nothing, but you can infer anything you'd like.

       

      Then it must be conclusive!  Wow!

       


                     http://www.snopes.com/religion/soulweight.asp

  27. MelissaBarrett profile image61
    MelissaBarrettposted 8 years ago

    @Cagsil

    There is a lot to respond to there.  I appreciate the conversation and I think I have a pretty good idea what your views are.  I agree with some of your viewpoints and disagree with some.  Regardless, the discussion provided some rich thinking opportunities.

    Honestly, just from my point of view, some of your ideas could be rationalized to excuse cruelty and verbal abuse as they excuse a personal responsibility to be kind by assuming that all emotional damage from insults is the responsibility of the insulted.

    Unfortunately, a call and response to your last comments would be dangerously close to attempting to change your viewpoints, so I am, respectfully, withdrawing from the conversation.

    Thank you for your willingness to discuss however.

    1. IntimatEvolution profile image79
      IntimatEvolutionposted 8 years agoin reply to this

      Melissa you are a great role model for other people to follow.  I so like your forum style here at Hubpages.   Something to work up to.

      Sorry for derailing the subject briefly.  I am out of here.  But I just really like her responses here.  And we all know how tough the subject of religion can be.

      1. profile image0
        Motown2Chitownposted 8 years agoin reply to this

        Agreed.  smile

        1. Evolution Guy profile image58
          Evolution Guyposted 8 years agoin reply to this

          I agree too. It is refreshing to see a believer admit they hold selectively irrational beliefs in a god instead of trying to argue that there is some rational or scientific basis for their beliefs.

          This honesty tends to cause less conflicts than the majority of believers who claim some rational or logical reasoning because there is no imperative to be right.

          Pity you cannot all admit your beliefs are wholly irrational and stop causing so many conflicts by insisting they are real. sad

          1. profile image0
            Motown2Chitownposted 8 years agoin reply to this

            Perhaps you missed my earlier post, where I accepted and conceded the point that my belief in God may indeed be irrational.  I, however, do not wish to, nor do I make any attempt to push those beliefs on others.  So, while my beliefs may be irrational, my behavior is not.  Attempting to sell God to you as a fact would indeed be irrational - just as it is irrational for you to try to sell the fact that there is no God.  When you can prove that there is no God, I will concede that I am a fool.

            Until then, I will hold to my belief.  Carry on holding whatever you hold as truth. 

            I won't badger you, or debate you.

            I would humbly request that you do the same.

            I don't know that I can reasonably expect that, though.

            Here's hoping.

            smile

  28. MelissaBarrett profile image61
    MelissaBarrettposted 8 years ago

    "Depends how you look at science. I "respect" most of the findings of science, but have little respect for some of the ways it is applied. But that is hardly the fault of science. Science just seeks to explain what is. If we then genetically modify an insect that wipes out a crop and causes a famine - well - that is us - not science."

    Depends how you look at religion.  I "respect" most of the viewpoints of religion, but have little respect for some of the ways it is applied.  But that is hardly the fault of religion.  Religion seeks to explain what is.  If we invade a foreign country-well that is us-not religion.

    1. Evolution Guy profile image58
      Evolution Guyposted 8 years agoin reply to this

      But religion is nonsense and seeks to explain nothing. Science deals with reality. lol I do not respect the viewpoints of your religion.

      Born in sin?

      Divorce is a sin?

      "If you are not with me, you are against me."

      Disgusting and divisive. sad

      I wonder if you have actually read your bible? You are actually comparing religion and science as the same thing? This is why you need to rationalize a little.

      1. MelissaBarrett profile image61
        MelissaBarrettposted 8 years agoin reply to this

        OK


        Those aren't my beliefs.  smile 



        Yes smile and several other books too.



        Comparing reactions to religion and science.  From my POV.


        I do all the time, when I'm not practicing selective irrationality. smile

        1. Evolution Guy profile image58
          Evolution Guyposted 8 years agoin reply to this

          So - you quite openly admit you just made your entire religion up in that case? Reactions to known facts and reactions to religion cannot be compared. This is selective irrationality all right. And a powerful barrier to clear communication. wink

          1. MelissaBarrett profile image61
            MelissaBarrettposted 8 years agoin reply to this

            *smiles* Didn't make it up at all.  My religion expects me to come to my own decisions on things.  Thereby, I would be acting in contrast to my religion if I believed exactly what my church told me to do... which it wouldn't because that would also be against my religion. 

            As far as relationships between scientific facts, my religion encourages us to seek out the scientific and learn from it...  Holy crap, what if I found a scientific belief in the course of my religious journey and chose to accept it as fact...?  Would it then be scientific knowledge or religious fiction? 

            Clear communication is sometimes as limiting as purely rational thinking... If you understand exactly what I say, what reason is there to think about it?

            1. Evolution Guy profile image58
              Evolution Guyposted 8 years agoin reply to this

              So - it is your decision as to whether it is right or wrong to kill some one? Your religion does not tell you? Despite the bible - you just make your own stuff up and selectively believe what the bible says. Sounds like all the other Christian cults to me. wink

              You seem to be being deliberately obtuse now though and managed to achieve my confusion because i have no idea what you just said next.

              1. MelissaBarrett profile image61
                MelissaBarrettposted 8 years agoin reply to this

                Yes, honestly I was being purposely obtuse. smile

                Yes, EG it is my decision on whether or not it is right to kill someone.  It would be regardless of my faith.  My inclinations led me to my faith rather than the other way around. If a book told me to kill someone, I wouldn't do it. 

                Yes, I selectively believe what the bible, or any other source for that matter, tells me.  If I am undecided, however, I will read what the Bible to seek guidance but it's not my only source.  I will go to as many different outlets as needed before I reach a decision.  If that means the Bible, The Torah, a psychologist, my mom, three encyclopedias and the old lady with all the cats down the street, then so be it.

                I really am having a slight bit of difficulty understanding why you think that I must be an illogical, prejudiced, child-molesting war monger with no individual thought of my own just because I believe that a really good guy died on a cross and did so with grace.

                1. Evolution Guy profile image58
                  Evolution Guyposted 8 years agoin reply to this

                  That is what the witch burners thought as well. Still - they were not real Christians were they? wink

                  I genuinely did not understand what you said next.

                  Gotta go. smile

                2. livelonger profile image92
                  livelongerposted 8 years agoin reply to this

                  This.

      2. Eaglekiwi profile image76
        Eaglekiwiposted 8 years agoin reply to this

        How do you feel about the current laws in the land you live in?

        I do not know all of the laws ,but if its a Western country,you understand the point I am making.

        Since the majority are based on biblical laws, courts etc.

        1. Evolution Guy profile image58
          Evolution Guyposted 8 years agoin reply to this

          No. They are based on Greek philosophy and Roman courts originally. Then Christianity interjected itself, stole some of those ideas and took over the system by war and murder. Most civil law in Europe was based on Roman law until the Church forced control, and now most European laws are secular and have moved away from the biblical nonsense. Biblical law was a relatively recent introduction and the Byzantine and Roman Empires still contributed a great deal to the basis of the courts, even as Christians were murdering their way across Europe and imposing nonsensical laws for Jesus.

          Thank goodness atheists are no longer burned at the stake for not accepting Jesus Christ as their Lord and savior and women who are discovered not to be virgins on their marriage night are no longer stoned to death, huh? Biblical laws disgust me - as they should you. And probably would do if you bothered to read the bible. wink sad

          Have you actually read any thing at all? Any books? There are some good history books you could use to educate yourself instead of repeating the lies other believers spout as fact.

          Try "A World Lit Only By Fire" by William Manchester, and "Roman Law in European History" by Peter Stein. They are both well written and interesting - and you might discover some actual facts instead of leaping to the defense of your religion with nonsense and mis-information. wink

  29. profile image0
    Motown2Chitownposted 8 years ago

    Oh, I forgot.  Time for my daily "You're all wrong!"

    No matter what you believe or don't I think I'm better than you.

    *Smirks, ducks, and runs*

    wink

    1. Eaglekiwi profile image76
      Eaglekiwiposted 8 years agoin reply to this

      Nice to know you havent got the Religious Forum set on auto then my friend lol

      You duck n dive into my space anytime ya like!

      Stay a minute ,stay a day ,say lots ,say nothing.

      Schools out wink




      http://s1.hubimg.com/u/1077800.jpg

  30. earnestshub profile image88
    earnestshubposted 7 years ago

    A random thought.
    "Religion is the opium of the masses" seems to be well wrong to me.

    I have had opium, and it made me feel very relaxed and peaceful.

    I felt no desire to go on a forum and flog it at all, in fact it probably lowers the subconscious terror of death that creates religious belief in the first place. smile.

  31. profile image0
    bri36posted 7 years ago

    well, since i don't want to read through all the bull and try to figure out what it is or isn't that everybody wants to say, won't say out load, or can't say because they don't want to offend G-d. I'll jump in here. Your religion is no better than anybody else's for this reason. Because G-d gave us free will to use as we please. In the mean time, it would seem that lots of people here on this thread have done just that! used their free will to pound on the bible, smash through some very small minds to see the light, and last but not least, proven that none of them are any better than the next because we as people don't measure up to the standards other people have set for us. Now,to all of the Christians out there i am not judging anybody, somebody all ready has that job and i choose to let HIM do it. it is a very hard job and i for one am damn glad somebody else has it. next, why do i have to choose who is better or what should you believe? when all it takes is just a little bit of faith in something other than money to make you happy!

  32. MelissaBarrett profile image61
    MelissaBarrettposted 7 years ago

    Oh dear God, please let this thread die.  The original intent is so long lost in the pages that every new poster is taking it out of context. 

    THE THREAD TITLE IS SUPPOSED TO BE TONGUE IN CHEEK!  It was a response to another thread.  I do not really think my views are any better than anyone else's.

    1. Jonathan Janco profile image64
      Jonathan Jancoposted 7 years agoin reply to this

      That's how I feel about my scripture contest, but apparently I am already being demonized.

      1. earnestshub profile image88
        earnestshubposted 7 years agoin reply to this

        I took a quick look, but did not think it would change the usual responses.
        Sense of humour is exorcised by religion. smile

      2. IntimatEvolution profile image79
        IntimatEvolutionposted 7 years agoin reply to this

        Oh please....hmm  Nobody has demonized you in your thread.  Your post is tad bit overly inflated.  Apparently you wish you were getting that type of attention.

        1. Jonathan Janco profile image64
          Jonathan Jancoposted 7 years agoin reply to this

          lol
          No just messing about again. By the way, nice refereeing in that other thread.

          1. IntimatEvolution profile image79
            IntimatEvolutionposted 7 years agoin reply to this

            Thanks.  Looks like your thread is starting to take off.

            1. Jonathan Janco profile image64
              Jonathan Jancoposted 7 years agoin reply to this

              And I really wanted people to just think it was funny. It seemed people on both sides of the argument were forgetting how to laugh.

              1. earnestshub profile image88
                earnestshubposted 7 years agoin reply to this

                I will never forget to laugh on the religious forums!
                They can be hilarious at times. lol

                1. Jonathan Janco profile image64
                  Jonathan Jancoposted 7 years agoin reply to this

                  Well, earnest, when I said 'people' I meant alot of people. I think you know you were one of few exceptions. smile

                  1. earnestshub profile image88
                    earnestshubposted 7 years agoin reply to this

                    Yep! I have to say some of the fire and brimstone types had had a humourectomy. lol

    2. profile image0
      bri36posted 7 years agoin reply to this

      to late sweetie, you want to make fun you gotta say so in the first place here. it's like the war zone and the christians don't like to lose. just ask them

      1. MelissaBarrett profile image61
        MelissaBarrettposted 7 years agoin reply to this

        I did say so... Motown got it all the way back on page one. 

        I don't know about christians and war zones and all that, but I do know I don't like being called sweetie.  I'm way way too bitter for that.roll

  33. earnestshub profile image88
    earnestshubposted 7 years ago

    Well it got a few arguments going, some of it was even about religion! lol

 
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