Urgent Prayer Request

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  1. DeaneMc profile image60
    DeaneMcposted 15 years ago

    URGENT PRAYER REQUEST from Pastor Mark Arnold
    Jim Bramlett
    Sep 26, 2008

    The below is forwarded from Pastor Mark Arnold of Ohio.  Pastor Mark is the one who had such a dramatic and unlikely encounter with Governor Sarah Palin a few days ago and delivered a word from the Lord to her and her husband, described in his message that I forwarded to you.   This mission from God has had a life-changing effect on Pastor Mark and he is very impassioned about leading this prayer charge.  Please read his words and join him.  This is  truly a God thing.


    Dear Friends:

    I'm requesting that my Friend JIM BRAMLETT and

    We have taken a jump and the people are wanting to pray.  People are STANDING
    UP and WE ARE NOT GOING TO COME OFF THE WALL.  From 70 Emails to over
    135 per hour...and our Office is being swamped by Phone Calls.

    I'm Calling Everyone that We Know to URGENT PRAYER...And please don't play any
    games...this is the MOST SERIOUS TIME...and WE must Stop the enemy...We must
    take back the Ground.


    1.  Since GOD raised them up for such a  time as this, WE MUST PRAY by the MINUTE for them!
    2.  Since GOD brought them to us - WE MUST GATHER AROUND THEM AND PROTECT THEM!
    3.  Since GOD brought them here, NOW WE MUST DO OUR PART and PREPARE TO VOTE!
    4.  Pray for the AREAS where they Campaign and Where they meet to have DEBATES!
         BELIEVERS - Let's TAKE Back Territory that has been handed over to the enemy!
    5.  We must understand that SPIRITUAL WARFARE is not against FLESH...
         The "other party" is not the Problem... "...we wrestle not against flesh and blood,

    6.  There are so many people who have suggested warfare...and I'm thankful that people have sent
         Scripture...and that is AWESOME - DON'T PRAY YOUR OPINION - PRAY THE WORD OVER
         WILL WORK.  Our facts...opinions and polls...aren't what we need.  THE WORD WILL NOT
         RETURN VOID.

    7.  Pray for God to "frustrate" and "silence" and "dumb-found" the "spirit of lies and deception that
         have been unleashed out of hell to attack McCain / Palin's Character.  IN JESUS NAME...
         THEY WILL NOT BE ABLE TO EVEN HURT THEM...The Words and any other weapon of attack
         the enemey tries to hurt them with, will fall to the ground...and NO WEAPON FORMED AGAINST

         Any Sickness, disease...trouble, problem...weight, lack, curse, fear, discouragement...whatever
         you have faced up until right now...know that JESUS lives in you...and the TRUTH of the WORD

    I Promise to you and before God...I WILL NOT COME OFF THE WALL.
    Someone must Pick up the tools and build the walls and the gates.
    Someone must carry the protective gear as in Nehemiah's days.


    This is not about Mark Arnold, it's not a personality campaign...IT'S ALL ABOUT LIFTING JESUS

    "Happy is the Nation (People), whose GOD is the LORD!"

    Be blessed!


    Pastor Mark Arnold
    <snipped contact email>
    Pastor : Monroe, Ohio
    Reside in the Hamilton/Fairfield, Ohio area!

    1. profile image0
      sandra rinckposted 15 years agoin reply to this

      Jesus told me it was a trick and you better watch out because your being decieved.  But I most certainly am praying for them.  Praying that they do not get elected and praying that if Obama is elected he doesn't get assasinated. 

      We are, BTW, overdue for the 20 year curse.  I pray that God will expose all their ugliness and open your "blinded" and "ingorant" and "distasteful" and "war mongering" and "sick hearted" eyes. 

      In the name of good ole J.C.  Amen, Amen.  smile

      1. Jeromeo profile image60
        Jeromeoposted 15 years agoin reply to this

        Why don't you say what's really on you mind, [L] ?

        1. profile image0
          sandra rinckposted 15 years agoin reply to this

          Ok, I think the world is nuts.  I think that you are all being dooped into believing that Jesus would ever call his followers to fight.  (not you personally Jeromeo because I know where you stand) I think these peope are sick to use God's name in anway that is associated with "evil" or "war" as being good in his name, when he said that we shouldn't do anything of the sort and that he will be the one to revenge what has gone wrong.  And I do feel that the majority of the people who are preaching in Jesus' name in this mannor who believe they are the "right" way are going to be the ones that Jesus' smacks because what they are doing is turning earnest seekers away because what Jesus says and what they do is the opposite and they do it in his name.

          "we must stop the enemy and take back the ground"  give me a friggin break!
          It is not thiers and it never was.  They are thier own enemies.  I am fully aware that there are good people out there who bear the name of "Jesus" and stuff, but do you really think that words like that came from Jesus?  The Prince of Peace...

          I know what the double edge sward means, I know why he uses parables, I know why there is always a choice. 

          I think it is sick to say that Jesus Christ is our Savior when really they should be saying is "Jesus is my Savior".  then go on about doing those good things, like helping the poor, stoping hypocracy, helping others, blessing not cursing, praying in their solitude (Timothy), but that is not what they do is it?

          Instead they preach about those who babble like the idolators...they are the idolators.
          They believe the cross holds some power and that they will be protected by it even though God says, do not take up any graven image made of steel, wood etc. 
          They do not honor the Sabbath day, and though many will disagree if not everyone, the Sabbath day has not even been established yet.
          God says have no other God before the "Creator of the Heavens and the Earth and all that is in it".  Yet somehow believe that Jesus is God. 
          God says, do not covet your neigbors wife and home etc.  What are they trying to take?  Land that is not theirs???

          Come on, I could go on for at least a couple hours at how foolish I believe these people are and how disgraceful they are to the name and how everything they do is backwards or sick or hurtful and the only thing they will never do is just say, "I am sorry."


    2. DeaneMc profile image60
      DeaneMcposted 15 years agoin reply to this

      It seems to me that what I posted caused a lot of people to get upset and even a little tacky so I removed the post. The last thing I meant to do was cause any rift. And I am praying for God's will to be done and I didn't mean to sound pushy. That's not the way I am. Everyone is entitled to believe as they will. I apparently offended some people also. What I posted was not meant to stir up any trouble. However, when I feel inspired to put a post on here that I believe is led of the Holy spirit, I will. And the one that said it should have been in politics, is correct. From the response that I received on this, God help us all to be more open to the leading of the Holy Spirit. If you don't believe in this. It's your right.
             In Christ love,

    3. DeaneMc profile image60
      DeaneMcposted 15 years agoin reply to this

      For those that got offended I removed the prayer that was posted. I wasn't aware that those types of things as such were not allowed to be posted on here. I will however continue to post writings, poems, etc...as I feel inspired to do so. I pray for God's will to be done on earth as it is in heaven. I also pray for the next leaders that will soon be placed into position will be according to God's plan and purpose.
             In Christ Love,

      1. Mark Knowles profile image58
        Mark Knowlesposted 15 years agoin reply to this

        It might actually help if you were in some way involved in the community. Like writing a hub or interacting in some other way. You have written no hubs, do not seem to interact in any way other than to push your religious beliefs and seem to be here for the sole purpose of pushing your religious cult.

        You have made 27 forum posts so far. A lot of these were  to start a forum thread which is solely designed to promote your cult:


        Perhaps the next time god tells you that the christian thing to do is vote for a particular person, you might consider writing it as a hub instead? Many of these hubs seem to attract attention.

      2. AEvans profile image74
        AEvansposted 15 years agoin reply to this

        I inderstand I just didn't understand why we are not praying for our nation as taht is what we are taught in church. I can honestly say I do not know if the Minister of our church is Democrat or Republican this I di know you did do the right thing by praying for the nation as you and I know what Revelations says and praying for one but not the other , is what God would h ave us do. Although the posting is controversial believe me you will have both sides of the world making commenting  , be strong in Christ and you will always prevail. smile
        It is a very interesting topic and I did not know you were not supposed to post it either , it is always a lesson learned.
        God Bless

    4. DeaneMc profile image60
      DeaneMcposted 15 years agoin reply to this

      Ephesians 4:29-32
      29-Let no unwholesome word proceed from your mouth, but only such a word as is good for edification according to the need of the moment, that it may give grace to those who hear.
      30-And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you were sealed for the day of redemption.
      31-Let all bitterness and wrath and anger and clamor and slander be put away from you, along with all malice.
      32-And be kind to one another, tender-hearted, forgiving each other, just as God in Christ also has forgiven you.

      Philippians 2:10-11,13-16
      10-At the name of Jesus every knee should bow of those who are in heaven and on earth, and under the earth,
      11-And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father
      13-For it is God who is at work in you, both to will and to work for His good pleasure.
      14-Do all things without grumbling or disputing;
      15-That you may prove yourselves to be blameless and innocent, children of God above reproach in the midst of a crooked and perverse generation, among who you appear as lights in the world,
      16-Holding fast the word of life, so  that in the day of Christ I may have cause to glory because I did not run in vain nor toil in vain.

      Colossians 1:17 And He is before all things and in Him all things hold together.

  2. knolyourself profile image60
    knolyourselfposted 15 years ago

    "7.  Pray for God to "frustrate" and "silence" and "dumb-found" the "spirit of lies and deception that
         have been unleashed out of hell to attack McCain / Palin's Character.  IN JESUS NAME...
         THEY WILL NOT BE ABLE TO EVEN HURT THEM...The Words and any other weapon of attack
         the enemey tries to hurt them with, will fall to the ground...and NO WEAPON FORMED AGAINST
    Ya know this should really be in the POLITICAL forum, since this a political attack upon me and mine, which could be said to
    be sort of a black magic curse, disguised as relgion.

  3. Mark Knowles profile image58
    Mark Knowlesposted 15 years ago

    Truly a God thing lol

    I am getting fed up of the religious spammers myself. We seem to have had a huge influx. Just here to drop garbage like this.

    I have reported it.

    1. DeaneMc profile image60
      DeaneMcposted 15 years agoin reply to this

      If you are that tired and fed up with what you call religious spammers, why do you bother reading them?

  4. Misha profile image62
    Mishaposted 15 years ago

    Should we just ban religion on Hubpages? But then - heck - it will not resemble a real life as close as it does today. sad So I guess we have to live with religious spammers, just hitting them on the head when they get too annoying big_smile

  5. Make  Money profile image66
    Make Moneyposted 15 years ago

    Well of course we are seeing a huge influx in these troubling times.  As we should be.

    This is not spam.  Lets face it Mark this is the Religion forum.  What do you think that only atheists should be able to post in the Religion forum?

    1. Mark Knowles profile image58
      Mark Knowlesposted 15 years agoin reply to this

      Mike - I know that as a christian it is your job to attack me at every opportunity, but give it a rest.

      These are discussion forums. Not a place to drop your message to enlighten the heathens.

      You do not have Conquistadors to back you up nowadays. Education is the death knell for your cult. That is why you have people like this pushing ignorance and intolerance down people's throats.

      It is the christian way.

  6. Mark Knowles profile image58
    Mark Knowlesposted 15 years ago


    Well they do seem to be taking over. Here to tell us how it is. I mean - look at the rubbish this one is pushing.

    "WE must Stop the enemy...We must
    take back the Ground.


    I am praying for them alright lol

    1. DeaneMc profile image60
      DeaneMcposted 15 years agoin reply to this

      I am praying for you

      1. Mark Knowles profile image58
        Mark Knowlesposted 15 years agoin reply to this


        What exactly are you praying for?

        Bolt of lightning?
        Nuclear strike?
        Carpet bombing?

        Or worse - that I see the light and vote for sarah McPalin in this difficult time that she may protect us from the clear and present dangers that threaten the free world?

        1. DeaneMc profile image60
          DeaneMcposted 15 years agoin reply to this

          I thought awhile about this and really didn't plan on responding but there is just something I want to say to you. While you seem to enjoy using sarcasm and belittling so many people I am curious about the being of your soul. I wouldn't even have considered putting this on here as I am sure you will have something smart to say about this too. After all you are a man with a great education. I am glad for you. especially since you think everyone else is so ignorant.
          Well, enough of that. On with what I really have on my heart. I know you want agree with this but I am going to write it anyway. You ask me what I am praying. I am praying for the spirits that are on you will be silent and you will receive what message you need to get out of this. If you don't believe in God, I ask God to have mercy on your soul. I pray for the Lord God to make Himself real to you in such away you will no longer question, if there is a God. Another thing I pray for your salvation. Believe it or not, God sent His Son Jesus to die for your sins. For God so Loved the world that he gave His only Son that whoever believes in Him will not perish but have eternal life. The word of God says that if you confess with your mouth and believe in your heart that Jesus Christ died for your sins and was raised from the dead, you will be saved. You may be sitting there laughing and you may even find yourself amusing when you attack people. God loves you anyway. He loves you so much if you had been the only man on earth he would have still sent His Son to die for you so that you would have life. This is not about politics. It's about the place you are in your life and I wonder why your heart seems to be so hard. See, every person will be given the chance to be told about Jesus and then they will have to make a decision if they receive Him or not. For those that don't, they will spend their eternity in hell. I guess you don't believe that either. I pray your heart and mind and spirit be opened to receive this message. Not for me, but for yourself. See no matter how much education  and no matter how smart you are, that want get you into heaven.
          Laugh if you want to. My heart is sincere, and I mean well. God help you in your ignorance!
          You made fun of me when I told you I am praying for you. That's alright. It doesn't bother me for me, it bother's me for you. Every one will die sometime and the soul has to go somewhere.
          If you think the ones that are believers in the Lord Jesus Christ are wasting their time. That's too bad. Because to believe in Jesus is to be kind hearted, compassionate, patient, loving, helping others when they need help, and they seek to do good and follow the way Jesus wants then too. As this is the case with me and how I am. So just suppose I am wrong, when I die what have I got to lose except the fact that I lived a good life not out to hurt others but be the best I can be without any regrets. If though I am right when I die I will go to heaven and receive my reward from the Lord for these things and most of all for excepting Jesus as my savior and my soul will be saved from hell.( I am not putting that as a scare tactic) It's the truth
          If on the other hand, you are wrong,when you die, where will you spend your eternity?
          what does it profit a man if he gain the whole world and lose his soul?
          God is not mocked, and whatsoever a man sows that he will reap. Life and death are in the power of the tongue and those who love it will eat its fruit.A man's pride will bring him low, but the humble in spirit will obtain honor.No harm befalls the righteous but the wicked are filled with trouble.The fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom and the knowledge of the Holy One is understanding.
          see the Lord says everyone will be  given the chance to hear the word of the salvation message and given the chance to receive Jesus as their Savor. You have been given the message so if you don't except it, one day you will stand before God and you can not tell him you didn't know because now you do. It is up to you, God have mercy on you and help you make the right choice. You may not be given another chance. It's really amazing living a life for the Lord God. You would really be amazed at what God can and will do.
          God be with you and soften your heart to receive His Words and your ears be opened to listen and know His voice and this message so one day you will be able to tell someone else what He has done for you.
          The spirit's of the enemy be silent, in Jesus Name
          There is power in the name of Jesus !!!!    ( Believe it or not)

  7. Make  Money profile image66
    Make Moneyposted 15 years ago

    Well you know that I do not like McCain and Palin myself but she has as much right to post what she thinks in here as you do to post your non-religious posts Mark, or more.  It's next to laughable for you or anyone to call her post or anyone's post regarding religion spam.


  8. Mark Knowles profile image58
    Mark Knowlesposted 15 years ago

    She is not posting what she thinks.


    But OK, I understand that you are too ignorant to understand the difference between opening up a discussion and what she posted.

    I forgive you your ignorance. You know not what you do lol

  9. Make  Money profile image66
    Make Moneyposted 15 years ago

    lol Thanks but I don't need you forgiveness Mark.

    What better place to call for prayer than in a religion forum.

  10. knolyourself profile image60
    knolyourselfposted 15 years ago

    "CALLING FOR A MAJOR THRUST OF PRAYER FOR McCAIN & PALIN" And these are tax exempt organizations, where one was suppose to believe, in exchange for tax free shelters, they were to stay out of politics. They want to influence government, but don't want any part in paying for government.

    1. funwithtrains profile image45
      funwithtrainsposted 15 years agoin reply to this

      If you are referring to churches that are classified as non-profits in the U.S., then yes, they are supposed to refrain from endorsing candidates.  However, they can still comment on issues (abortion, etc.) -- and the restrictions on a church does not mean that a pastor at the church looses his free speech rights to send emails (a church is not mentioned).  By the way, over 30% of Americans don't pay any taxes, but we don't take away their rights to free speech, vote, or otherwise participate in the political process.

      I say this to clarify, but I'm not endorsing the email that started this thread.

      Mark, your comments seem a bit vitriolic.  With all respect, zealous atheism puzzles me (probably because I'm "ignorant").  I can understand, to some extent, someone who is agnostic -- they just don't know what to believe.  But, in my humble opinion, atheism is a religion also. 

      Under various religions or theories, God could be active in our lives or could have started the Universe in motion and not be active in the world; and therefore it's impossible for science to prove for certain whether there is a God or not.  So, it seems to me that being an athiest requires a leap past what can be proven, and latching onto that unprovable belief.  That is faith.  So, your posts advocating your faith and calling Christians names don't strike me as being any nicer than the (somewhat spammy) post that started this thread.

      To paraphrase your words: Is it your job to attack Christians in the Religion forum and enlighten the "ignorant" believers?

      1. Mark Knowles profile image58
        Mark Knowlesposted 15 years agoin reply to this

        Vitriolic huh? Interesting choice of words. And appropriate. Allow me to salve your ignorance. Although, you were also a participant in another thread just recently where you accepted that my calling some one a spammer was correct. If you noticed, the same person who contradicted me here, contradicted me there. Or did you not see that? lol

        edit -wrong christian lol

        Perhaps you would care to back that up with some reasoning? Or did god tell you? lol

        Seriously. I understand that you have trouble understanding that some one could come to a conviction without faith, but - I hate to break it to you. Some people use reasoned judgment and investigation of facts before coming to a conclusion.

        Actually no. I understand that you cannot fathom any one coming to a conclusion without faith. I am quite happy to believe if there is any proof whatsoever of a god. Unfortunately there is none. Now, I accept that I cannot prove the non-existence of something. But, by that token, Santa Claus is as realistic as god.

        So - which is more realistic - believing in something that there is no proof for, or not believing in something until it is proven?

        Please feel free to quote me where I am attacking a christian.

        Yes, I do ridicule "christians" who parley their belief into political convictions. Absolutely. Vote for McCain and Palin because god told me to tell you to do that ? Oh yes.

        I am not sure I would consider that an attack.

        Defense? Possibly.

        You are a little correct in that I feel an obligation to alleviate some ignorance. Probably because I was blessed with a decent education and feel I have been "convicted" to do so.

        Make Money here, for example, believes it is wrong to teach evolution in schools - I could never quite ascertain why, but I even started a thread for the purpose:


        And if you care to look through the older forums threads you will discover a disturbing number closed after personal attacks on me.

        So, yes, vitriolic is an appropriate term to use. I will continue to spend my time "bringing into the light," christians who say one thing and act in an un-christian way.

        Just the same way Jesus did smile

        Looking forward to why you think non-belief in god based on a lack of evidence, and an overwhelming body of evidence that the bible is not to be taken literally - is a religion.

        1. funwithtrains profile image45
          funwithtrainsposted 15 years agoin reply to this

          [1] & [2]:  I don't believe we've communicated enough to warrant your disparaging remarks about what I am capable of understanding or fathoming.  Ad Hominem attacks are actually contrary to logical discussion.

          [3]: Actually, I would say: (a) being Atheist (again, rather than agnostic) is believing something that can't be proven; and (b) that there is evidence in support of God, you've merely chosen not to accept that evidence as proof positive of God -- that's certainly your choice, but I don't think the dichotomy you stated was accurate.  For example, for the Christian religion alone there were hundreds or thousands of witnesses at the time to various acts (appearance of resurrected Jesus), there is corroboration by non-Christian sources of key assertions (e.g., the empty tomb), there are more ancient manuscripts about Christian events and any other person or event in ancient history, etc.  There are many volumes written on this.  You can choose not to believe all or some of these, but there is certainly more proof to consider than Atheism provides.  Please note also that for this discussion I did not limit my thoughts to Christianity.  Certainly other religions have proof to consider also?

          [4]: So, you really believe that the billions of people on earth who believe in God are all ignorant?  Is it possible you esteem your own intelligence so highly that you don't want to consider a superior being (even though you can't prove one doesn't exist)?

          [5]: I haven't attacked you personally, and don't intend to.  I will, however, vigorously disagree with you -- and take issue with your disparaging remarks about Christians.

          [6]: Taking every word of the Bible literally is not a hot-button with me.  Christ taught using parables, and the Bible was at least reduced to writing by humans, so the thought that every word of the Bible is infallible and literal is not essential to me (though it is for some).  That said, I believe that there is a great amount of evidence that what Christians call the Old Testament and the New Testament have been very accurately preserved through the years.  However, please bear in mind that for this discussion I wasn't limiting us to Christianity, but rather was curious about a person believing "there is no God" in light of the different views of God and the inability to prove that there isn't a God.

          In the end, I do believe that Atheism, perhaps more than Christianity is "firm belief in something for which there is no proof", and therefore meets the definition of Faith (www.m-w.com).

          1. Mark Knowles profile image58
            Mark Knowlesposted 15 years agoin reply to this

            1 and 2 and 3
            Well, you do seem to be having trouble understanding that atheism is a lack of belief in something. I am not sure how this could be classed as an Ad hominem attack, but I will try and explain the difference.

            I have tried unsuccessfully to get this point across to other believers and have found that it stems from an inability to grasp the idea that some one might choose not to believe in something after careful consideration of the facts and evidences or lack thereof.


            No. I am quite happy to consider a superior being. I have spent much time considering that. And I have come to the conclusion that there isn't one. Or if there is, he did not create the universe. I am open to any number of ways of having my mind changed. And just because a lot of people believe it - does not make it so. Many people used to believe the earth was flat until we discovered otherwise.


            I have not attacked you either. I admittedly stated that you seem unable to grasp the idea that atheism is not a belief in something.  And I am quite comfortable making dispariging remarks about certain types of christians - and will continue to do so. It certainly is not aimed at you personally.


            You "believe" that not believing in something that cannot be dis proven is a belief.

            I am confused as to why you believe this, and the only conclusion I can come to is that you can only accept beliefs as a reason for thinking a certain way.

            Take these two statements for example:

            I do not believe in god.
            I believe there is no god.

            They are not the same, and the one and only single reason I must say "I do not believe in god," is in the face of someone telling me there is a god, and I should believe.

            Make sense?

            So back to your assertion that I "believe" that there is no god even though I cannot prove there is no god.

            Couple of things:

            100% lack of evidence for something could be considered proof that the something does not exist. this is certainly one of my reasons for not believing in god. This is not a belief. I think it is a rational basis for making a decision. No proof, therefore does not exist.

            Using your argument, I therefore "believe" that Santa Claus does not exist - in spite of the fact that many do. Presumably, you do not believe in Zeus, Wotan, The Flying Spaghetti monster and all the other postulated gods?

            Is this because you have faith that they do not exist, or did you come to this conclusion in some other way?

            Last note and an attempt to show how what you say sounds to my ears -

            I personally have reasoned my way to the fact that there is not a personal god. Based not only on my observations of the way the world works, my personal experiences, my common sense and logic, but also after exhaustive searches.

            Yet you are now telling me I did not reason my way to this conclusion, and I merely "believe" that this is the case. I have no basis for coming to this conclusion, and the thousands of hours spent thinking about it and investigating the possibility of a personal god were actually wasted and my conclusions are worthless. I have just chosen to "believe" that there is no such thing as a personal god.

            Because you say so.

            Which is more reasonable - Faith that something exists when there is no evidence for it, or lack of belief in that something, despite the fact that it is impossible to prove the non-existence of anything?

            1. funwithtrains profile image45
              funwithtrainsposted 15 years agoin reply to this

              Regarding the two statements you listed above, it seems to me that agreeing to the "I do not believe in God" statement but not going so far as to state "I believe there is no God" seems more in line with how an Agnostic is usually defined (www.m-w.com) than the typical definition of an Atheist.

              I never said, and would not assume, that you did not examine the evidence before coming to your conclusion, I merely stated that there is evidence to consider -- though there is no evidence to support an *assertion* that there is no God (I now understand you are not going so far as to actually assert this).  I have also spent a tremendous amount of time evaluating the evidence, really looking at every element of the body of proof for Christianity, and I have found the proof compelling.  Many people smarter than me have come to that conclusion also (and admittedly many have not).  So, while people are entitled to make their own conclusions, I don't believe it is correct to say there is no evidence -- the evidence has just not satisfied you personally.

              So, as I mentioned in an earlier post, I can somewhat understand someone being Agnostic, in that they aren't prepared to believe "there is a God" or believe "there is no God".  What I was puzzled about in my first post in this thread is how someone goes so far as to be an Atheist -- which in my mind (and at least in Webster's too) means to believe that "there is no God".  To me that assertion requires a leap of faith, beyond that which is provable -- so making that assertion seems a bit illogical and unreasonable, and in my experience is often accompanied with a zeal to convince others (looking very much like a religion of its own).  In my humble opinion, it seems that the farthest a logical and open-minded person who was not convinced that there is a God could go would be the traditional definition of Agnostic -- not fully convinced either way.

    2. allshookup profile image60
      allshookupposted 15 years agoin reply to this

      Shoulda told Hillary Clinton that when she was speaking inside that church during her campaign. The whole seperation of church and state is because LBJ was sulking because he didn't do as well as he thought he should have in an election, so he blamed the churches in the United States. So, he come up with the whole seperation of church and state because he couldn't do what he wanted when Christians spoke. He was scared of what Christians can do when they stand. This was his way of trying to put a stop to it.  We have always been tax exempt, even before the LBJ temper tantrum. Which to me is not a big deal. I don't care to pay taxes. I don't care whether we are tax exempt or not. I just care about what we do while we are there.

      1. Inspirepub profile image72
        Inspirepubposted 15 years agoin reply to this

        Fascinating historical perspective. And here was I thinking the separation of church and state was written into the Constitution 200 years before LBJ was elected.

        Silly me.


        1. allshookup profile image60
          allshookupposted 15 years agoin reply to this

          You're welcome. Wouldn't it be nice if people actually knew more about that statement before throwing it around like they do? Way back when, it was written that the government should not tell us how we can worship. Nothing to do with Christians staying out of politics. It's written so the government stays out of the way people worship. The threat of the tax-exempt status wasn't there until, well, what I told you happened. Churches have always had that status.

  11. AEvans profile image74
    AEvansposted 15 years ago

    Interesting? If we are calling for prayer for McCain and Palin we should also be calling prayer for Obama and Biden wouldnt' that be the Christian thing to do? It is written to love thy brother as thyself?  How do you honestly know what the media is saying is a lie? I have you had time to do your homework? It could be that GOD is pointing it out and some Christians are not listening. I do not feel that prayer for them in the forum is the proper place, that's almost like trying to sway a vote and to me that is unethical. I am a swing voter so I will vote for the person that is suitable to run our country , this said I have prayed for both so only GOD will have that answer after the polls close.

    FYI: A Pastor of a church should not be letting his followers know who he is voting for, what he should be doing is trying to save souls. Our Pastor of our church tells us to pray for our nation in these troubled times , he does not tell us to send out prayer to particular politicians,
    this letter that was sent concerns me. How much more money does he take in on Tithes and Offerings for doing this? No disrespect intended.

    God Bless

    1. profile image0
      mikeq107posted 15 years agoin reply to this

      Great reply I,m 100% behind you, people are so easily led, you have put a smile on my heart:0) Thumbs up my Dear...keep on keeping on...Mike :0) your friend in Jesus!!!!!!!

      1. AEvans profile image74
        AEvansposted 15 years agoin reply to this

        Thanks!!! I am glad you agree

  12. Uninvited Writer profile image81
    Uninvited Writerposted 15 years ago

    And why would God necessarily care about the US election?

    1. profile image0
      sandra rinckposted 15 years agoin reply to this

      I don't think God does but Christians do because according to this inane prayer, the Christians believe that McCain and Palin are the "chosen" ones I guess. 

      If I see McCain or Palin get shot dead and left in the street and then get up and walk after three days, I might change my tune.  And if it were predestined to happen then a prayer like this would be pointless. lol

      Of course that would rule out thier belief in free will.  smile

      1. AEvans profile image74
        AEvansposted 15 years agoin reply to this

        Not all Christians believe that they are chosen , as I certainly do not, I believe that when the polls close that will be the decision made among the people.  If  we are supposed to pray, then we should pray for our nation not for who /whom should should be the next president.

        1. profile image0
          sandra rinckposted 15 years agoin reply to this

          Well I have read your most of your post and I think you are sweet.  No I also don't believe that all Christians believe that, it was in reference to the thread topic. 

          Maybe you could pray for the entire world instead.  smile Maybe if people started praying for everyone instead of certain nations, people, things etc...things would get better.  After all, if prayer is working then doesn't that say something about what people are praying for.  smile

          I remember a song that one of my highschool history teachers played when we were studying the Vietnam war.  I don't remember the name or the hole song just one piece of it...

          Hey, ho what are we fighting for, don't ask me cause I don't give a damn, I am on my way to vietnam.  Five, six, seven open up the pearly gates...

        2. Roseberry profile image61
          Roseberryposted 15 years agoin reply to this

          What about where it is said that God places them in leadship and takes them out. I don't see the  fuss here you either agree are you don't! Is this a christian forum or not! Why the attack?

  13. Mark Knowles profile image58
    Mark Knowlesposted 15 years ago

    Well, this is where we stumble in our discussion.

    I am quite prepared to say that I do not believe in god.

    But I am not prepared to say that I "believe" there is no god. I have stated that I do not believe in god, and although you are not accusing me of not making any examination of the evidence, you immediately dismiss it by contradicting me and saying that I cannot possibly have done that, and that you do not think I have come to any rational conclusions and therefore am relying solely on belief that there is not a god.

    Based solely on the fact that it is not possible to prove something does not exist - yet smile

    And apparently, you also think that this is an assertion that "seems a bit illogical and unreasonable" which rather makes your beliefs the same I would have thought?

    You have, of course, chosen not to answer any of my questions to you.

    As for the compelling proof you mention, I imagine this is the sort of internal, compelling proof, that is not visible to the naked eye, or measurable in any way. Let's face it - I am a rational man, if you could offer any proof whatsoever, I would be easily convinced.

    As for the label atheist or agnostic, I claim neither. Atheist is the closest I can come up with. All I can say is I do not believe in god. If that makes me an atheist, so be it.

    As for my "religious zeal," you will notice a few things about that - It tends to be directed at certain people -

    Those who claim that their religious beliefs have led them to a conclusion that in some way harms others. Whether it is voting for a person based on their military ability and willingness to use nuclear weapons if necessary, or encouraging nationalistic aggressive behavior.

    Those who attempt to extract money based on their religious words.

    Those who attempt to stir national, religious or racial hatred, based on their religious convictions.

    Those who discourage education based on the fact that they perceive certain scientific theories -  evolution for example - to be a lie and going against god's word. 

    I do not believe in god. I gave this serious thought and investigation. Having spent some considerable amount of time - unable to find any compelling reasons or proofs, I tentatively came to the conclusion that there was no god.

    I then went looking in places most people do not look. Admittedly, in my exploration, I came across many things I could not explain fully. I have personally experienced being in another body, and this body was me, but not. I have communed with spirits in an American Indian sweat lodge. I can make a very accurate Tarot reading. I can at will connect myself to the universe in ways I find very difficult to put into words. I can bring on this ability in others if I choose to do so. I can become aware of a person before they have even entered my "normal" senses. I can and have done and will continue to do these things.

    None of them require a creator. None of them need a superior being to have made them. We are far more than you christians give us credit for. And far less. I am as important as a grain of sand on the beach.

    Many of the senses we were born with are no longer in everyday use and lie dormant. This actually becomes stressful - accepting those "animal" senses rather than fighting them, or attributing them to some mythical higher power is not a route I have chosen to take. I have embraced them, and in doing so, set myself free of many of the constraints people allow to be placed upon them. Fighting against the idea that we are actually animals and are somehow "superior," make zero sense to me.

    Just because you become aware of something you are unable to measure or sense in "normal" ways, jumping to the conclusion that it is god is unreasonable and unworthy. Immediately translating those impulses to defend one's self and then saying "It is god's word," is also a fallacy.

    And self-propagating. All the time there are christians who decide to homeschool their children because they believe evolution is a lie, and convince themselves that god "convicted" them to do it, this will continue. All the time it suits the powers-that-be to persuade the population that there is a threat and god has told the leaders to protect against it, it will continue.

    As I always say - You and I are both Atheists - I just believe in one less god than you do.

    By the way, how about answering my question as to how you came to the conclusion that the other gods do not exist - The Flying Spaghetti Monster for instance. Faith - or did you reason your way to it?

    1. funwithtrains profile image45
      funwithtrainsposted 15 years agoin reply to this

      Hello again Mark,

      Perhaps I was unclear in my wording, as I don't believe I dismissed you at all -- that was not my intent.  What I tried to say was that it seemed illogical or unreasonable for someone to assert "there is no God", since that is unprovable and without any evidence.  However, that is not what you are saying, so I was not applying that to you.  And no, it is not illogical or unreasonable to examine the evidence for Christianity and come to the personal conclusion that the evidence meets my burden of proof -- though someone (not you) who asserts "there is no God" has no evidence to base that statement on.

      As for avoiding your questions, I count 3 question marks in your last post.  I thought I was addressing the 1st and 3rd with my last post.  As for the 2nd, I thought that was more of a rhetorical question, but I'll be glad to answer.

      You have pinpointed one of the many areas where I lack knowledge: I have simply never heard of the Flying Spaghetti Monster.  I will be glad to research it.  As for other religions, yes, I've certainly looked at their beliefs and made a decision that in my opinion the evidence is not as great in support of those versus the religion I believe in.  I have not gone around calling believers of the other religions ignorant, though.

      Specifically as to Zeus and Wotan, I'm fairly well versed in mythology.  Yes, I have reviewed the stories and have chosen not to believe them for various reasons.  Admittedly, I did not ponder these two that long, as I've never met anyone who actually professes to believe in them (one might expect that a true God would have a lasting group of followers), nor thought they had a philosophy to follow (one might expect that a true God would produce thoughts that would guide his people and influence the world), and it was my personal assessment  that the Zeus and Odin/Wotan stories had much more of the stamps of fictional mythology (e.g., superhuman fighting abilities, turning into animals, etc.) than are found in my religion.  Also, yes, I don't deny having faith -- I'm just saying that someone (not you, I know) who says "there is no God" is taking that on faith also.

      Frankly, I take issue with many of the same uses (abuses) of religion that you do.  I find these aberrations of flawed or insincere interpretation, and don't condemn the religion or the entirety of its believers because of those.

      1. Mark Knowles profile image58
        Mark Knowlesposted 15 years agoin reply to this

        Well. what word would you use to describe someone who believes that evolution is a political doctrine, that dolphins are proof evolution could not happen, and that posting a CALL TO PRAYER is not the same thing as opening up a discussion thread?

        OK - There are a several things here.

        From my understanding of the myths of Wotan and Zeus etc, they did have a philosophy to follow. It was just a different one to the christ myth.

        But - you seem to be saying that one of the reasons you dismissed them is that the superhuman fighting abilities and so on seemed unreasonable, yet walking on water and bringing people back from the dead seems pretty rational?

        And I ask you again - which is more reasonable - believing in something that there is no evidence for, or not believing in that something?

        But I do agree with you on one thing. One might expect that a true god would have a lasting group of followers rather than splintered groups of people who cannot agree what he said and fight wars over the interpretation of his word.

        A true god would have made himself a little more clear. Which touches on another of my reasons for not believing. No faith - just logic smile

        1. funwithtrains profile image45
          funwithtrainsposted 15 years agoin reply to this

          I don't feel the need to name-call people I disagree with.

          I certainly don't deny that there were miraculous works performed by Christ.  What I said were that Zeus and Odin had more stamps of traditional mythology -- that's really the majority of their stories.  With Christ, the main focus is on the lessons he provides, with some miraculous acts here and there.  You can disagree with my assessment, but the question was have I evaluated Zeus and Odin and whether I had reasons for not believing in them, and that was one factor in my assessments.

          What you "ask again" I believe is something I already answered -- I disagree with the premise of your question, as it assumes something (no evidence for God) that is not true.  I find there is plenty of evidence for Christianity, so I believe it is more reasonable to believe.  Another person may find that there is evidence for their religion.  However, now that we have clarified that you are not asserting "there is no God" (which we've agreed cannot be proven), I'm not sure where we're going with this part of our conversation, as I haven't said that it's unreasonable to be unconvinced or unsure.

          For Christ to still be a key figure in world events after about 2000 years certainly seems like a sign to me (not the only sign, but one factor).  The different interpretations of different people seems to me a natural result of allowing free-will, but the fundamentals are pretty consistent.  I don't blame God for people's misguided use of Him as an excuse to fight wars.

          To me there's nothing that unclear about loving your neighbor, turning the other cheek, and forgiving a person 70x7 times for transgressions against you.  The teaching is sound, but people with an agenda can always twist words to try to support their aggressions.

          1. Mark Knowles profile image58
            Mark Knowlesposted 15 years agoin reply to this

            I was not aware I was name-calling. I merely stated that they were ignorant of certain facts. You are saying that this is an insult? I myself am ignorant of many facts and quite prepared to admit so.

            I am lost now. I have applied exactly the same principals to whether or not I believe in the christian god as you have applied to the ancient Greek and Norse gods. Yet when you apply then, it is reasoning, and when I apply them it is "faith"?

            You are twisting what I said to meet your needs. But - you still did not answer my question, although If you have some evidence of the christian god - I ask you to please share. I think we might need to define the word "evidence," first though.

            Well, I don't see how this is an argument in favor. Much of the reason christ is "still a key figure" is the amount of wars fought in his name and forcible conversions made over the last few centuries. As I mentioned earlier, all the time there are christian prepared to homeschool their children because they believe evolution is a lie, I am sure that will continue.

            But, this is the McDonalds approach - if there is a lot of them, it must be good. No thanks lol

            Quite apart from that, many earlier gods are still with us. We even name some of our days of the week after them. Every Thor's day we remember one of my favorites. Now there was a god. No misinterpreting his message smile

            And using this logic, you should switch to Pantheism - widely regarded as the most subscribed to religion. Even if you count all the christains as one religion, which many would disgree with.

            Well, here we can semi-agree. As I mentioned in another thread - I have yet to meet a genuine christian. But, if the teaching was actually sound - we would not have this issue.

            1. funwithtrains profile image45
              funwithtrainsposted 15 years agoin reply to this

              Yes, I generally think calling someone "ignorant" is an insult in the manner you have used that term in this thread.

              I said Atheism, under its common definition (asserting "there is no God"), requires faith (belief in what can't be proven).  That was my main hypothesis in the post that brought the 2 of us into a discussion.  I've never said that what I would normally call an Agnostic point of view (neither affirming or denying the existence of God) requires faith, or that it takes faith to reject evidence for Christianity or any other religion.  In my view, the leap of faith, beyond that which is provable, is when one positively asserts "there is no God".

              I didn't mean to twist your words, and I don't think I did.  I thought we both agreed that an assertion "there is no God" is not capable of being proven.

              Yes, I do believe there is evidence for Christianity -- more than I can type here (perhaps I'll create a hub on this one day).  For a deep dive into the subject, I would recommend Evidence for Christianity by Josh McDowell.  For other readers who might want a more user-friendly read, I would recommend The Case for Faith and The Case for Christ both by Lee Strobel.

              I said that this was one factor I considered, but far from the only factor.  Yes, some people have used Christianity and other religions as excuses for war.  There have also been wars when religion wasn't involved.  There have also been great works of charity and kindness in the name of religion.  People who have trouble with Christianity because Christians aren't perfect miss the bigger picture: Christianity acknowledges individual imperfection, and (if its teachings are truly followed) encourages individuals to be better, kinder, gentler, etc.

              I don't know what you consider a genuine Christian, if you haven't met one.  As for sound teaching, I don't believe there's any logic in that statement.  Tiger Woods could teach me how to play golf, and I would never be as good as he is.  Same for Michael Jordan and Basketball.  Perhaps the same with Einstein and Physics, Bach with music, Michelangelo with art, etc.  Even the best teachers have bad students, and none of us is perfect.  Thankfully, we don't have to be perfect -- but there are always some people who just don't want to learn, or who want to do it their own way regardless.  We do have free will.  No need to blame the teaching..

              1. Mark Knowles profile image58
                Mark Knowlesposted 15 years agoin reply to this

                It is not meant as an insult. Merely an observation. I do consider some one who believes evolution is a lie to be ignorant. i.e - lacking in knowledge.

                But - you are once again mis-stating this. This is not something that cannot be proven.

                This is something that cannot be dis-proven. And this is a pretty big distinction because it is not possible to dis-prove the existence of anything.

                Surely the onus is on the claimant to prove the existence of something rather than the other way round?

                Let me say this - "You own a Bugatti Veyron and it is in your garage." You cannot prove this is not the case if I choose to believe it is.......

                I understand that you "believe" there is evidence for a belief in the christian god. Unfortunately this is not empirical evidence. And I have already doven deep into the subject. Most of what constitutes "evidence" turns out to be - "Well, I cannot conceive of any other answer, therefore it was the christian god."

                But, if you have some other proofs, I am all ears. smile

                But - you are missing my point. If it was not for the aggressive attack on the world by certain christian sects, it would have died out with all the other discarded religions. The Spanish conquistadors wiping out entire civilizations in the name of christ; The Inquisition; the formation of the United States after decimating the indigenous populations to be able to practice their religion free from the constraints of the Church of England, blah, blah, blah,

                All done with force, all to spread the word of christ. If this had not happened, would the WORD still be around? I very much doubt it. Force of arms is the only thing that has spread Jesus' message far and wide. He would be turning in his grave - if he had one lol

                I agree with one thing - Christianity acknowledges individual imperfection and forgives you your transgressions. Which pretty much makes the entire message meaningless. If you go out into the world and forcibly convert, kill, rape and maim, well, that is OK. You are forgiven - as long as you accept Jesus as your personal savior - you can kill to your heart's content...

                There is a big difference between hitting a golf ball and christ's teachings.  And you do have to be perfect. Nothing else will do. You cannot drop a nuclear bomb on some one and later claim to be a christian.

                No - I have never met a christian.

                Will you lay down your life for me?

  14. Roseberry profile image61
    Roseberryposted 15 years ago

    Hum sounds to me that a sore spot was hit! Whom is the author of this thread?

  15. profile image0
    sandra rinckposted 15 years ago

    I think the only difference is, because one believes or has faith in a God then all those who do not believe in a God or believe thier is a God requires some sort of "faith".

    Not so, if there is no God, then what amount of "faith" is required?  You see, one who has faith that there is a God, doesn't understand that there is no God, no amount of "faith" or "belief" is neccessary.

    Like the Universe, yip, it is there...one doesn't need faith to know that it is there unless conversing with another who "believes" that it is a lie.  See the difference?

    So while one says, yes there is a God or I know there is, or I have faith in God...what that is the way you understand it.  Just because it feel true to one does not, under any circumstances, make it true for another.  No matter how much you believe it, no matter how scary it may sound, no matter how much you want to beleive that if a person says, there is not God, that you God will damn them to hell or something. 


    I personally believe in My God, not your God, not no God, not a Universal God, not a Christain God, just....My God, and I say My God can kick your God's or gods a**es.  lol.  smile

  16. Misha profile image62
    Mishaposted 15 years ago
  17. funwithtrains profile image45
    funwithtrainsposted 15 years ago

    Hi Sandra,

    No sure if you've read all of the back and forth between Mark and me, but my hypothesis is:  Being an Athiest requires faith.

    My reasoning:

    1.  Atheism = belief that "there is no God"  (different from Agnostic)
    2.  That assertion cannot be proven true.
    3.  Belief in something that cannot be proven true meets the definition of "faith"
    4.  Therefore, Atheism is a statement of faith.

    Edit: While I am a Christian and Mark and I have gotten into some questions about Christian faith, my initial post comment was really just comparing Theists and Atheists.

    1. profile image0
      sandra rinckposted 15 years agoin reply to this

      but the catch is, it doesn't need to proven.  But that is ok,  my assesment is sound and you cannot understand that if there is no God, there is neither a "faith" or "belief" associated with it. 

      If there is not God, then there is not faith.  It only rings this way to you because you believe there is one. 

      Anyways, no harm, no foul.  smile

  18. Misha profile image62
    Mishaposted 15 years ago

    Fun, you committed a logical fallacy here.

    You use the assumption "atheism=belief", which is equal to "atheism=statement of faith" to prove that atheism=statement of faith big_smile

    You first need to prove that atheism=belief.

  19. profile image0
    sandra rinckposted 15 years ago

    Also Fun,

    I think this is something that you want an athiest to admitt because doing so would give you a means or ground for reproach in debate or something. 

    But the same problems occure within religions that posess a God.  On believes in Hell the other does not.  One believes that people to Heaven and another of the same faith believes in an Earthly Paridise. 

    Neither can be proven, only believed because that is what you want.  I don't see anything wrong with it until people put anger between them and fail to understand that we are all human and different with different thoughts, imaginations, "faiths", principles, understandings and such. 

    I wouldn't see how God even the Christain or Muslim God would care about how you believe but only that you believe.  smile and treat each other with human dignity, compassion and understanding and stuff. 

    I don't think it is so hard to do unless someone says that these things don't mean anything unless you believe.

    the way I see it is,  that anyone who helps one who believe (even if they don't) will be part of the special place or forgiven or whatever comes next. 

    You could have spent your entire life believing in something that was never going to happen and along the way people have fought for nothing. 

    Like I said, I don't care if people believe or disbelieve or assert there is no God, what matters to me is that we build a good world here and now in the one that we do have.  And if there is a God, I am pretty sure he would be happy with us for that.  wink

  20. funwithtrains profile image45
    funwithtrainsposted 15 years ago

    Misha, sorry if I skipped a step, but just going off of a standard definition.  Whether we call it a belief, doctrine, etc., not sure if it matters to the outcome.

    Sandra, I think you are missing my point, perhaps going off of your connotation of what "faith" means rather than the definition.  If the definition of faith is belief in that which cannot be proven true, and if we can't prove that there is or isn't a God, then both those who believe "there is a God" and those who say "there is no God" meet the definition of faith -- in that they believe something that can't be proven.  Both are asserting beliefs that they cannot fully prove.

    Once we are able to prove either way (God or no God) then neither side will have faith -- one will be proven right, and one will be proven wrong.

    And that's the limit of the hypothesis I was asserting, I was not trying to delve into a specific type of Theism.

    However, since you raise the point I must point out that your statement about a Christian God not caring how you believe is not what Christians believe.  Christians believe there is one path to salvation, through Christ, and that anything else falls short.  I know a generic, "anything goes as long as you're nice" god is a popular thought these days, but just wanted to clarify that doesn't jibe with Christian beliefs.  Not sure that other religions believe that either.

    1. profile image0
      sandra rinckposted 15 years agoin reply to this

      Your God is just a definition found in a book.  Sorry if that bothers you for me to say that, but it is.

      And Jesus would be happy if we all just got a long.  Plus, whether you believe it or not, not everyone belongs to Jesus or needs Jesus no matter how much you want to believe that.  smile

    2. Misha profile image62
      Mishaposted 15 years agoin reply to this

      Well, for me atheism is not a doctrine, etc. It is a lack of a need for God. And such a lack can't really be a basis for your outcome smile

      In fact this refers only to "The People of The Book" - Judaists, Christians, and Muslims. Buddhists are fine with different ways, and Hunduists are fine, too - to the best of my knowledge. And Pagans are by definition tolerant to different ways smile

  21. Mark Knowles profile image58
    Mark Knowlesposted 15 years ago

    Well, the reason I made fun of you when you said you were praying for me is I knew what you were praying for. And you have now made that clear.

    You are praying that I start think the way you think and stop making fun of people who misunderstand the message that Jesus was sent to deliver.

    So you are not really praying for me. You are praying for you.

    And I have tried in the past to explain just how offensive and condescending it sounds when people use the words you have just used. I will not cut and paste your entire statement to me, so forgive me if I make it seem as though I am quoting out of context.

    Yes, this is fairly condescending. I am sure you do mean well, but you are basically telling me that all my education is  waste, and that you have garnered more knowledge that I, and you want this knowledge so that you can get into heaven, And I am not going to heaven because I do not agree with you. smile

    Please explain how opening a thread with these words is being kind-hearted, compassionate, patient, loving, or helping others when they need help. Politics, that is all.

    How about I try and explain it all in terms that you will understand?smile

    I have SEEN THE LIGHT. GOD in His infinite wisdom has chosen to show me the TRUTH, the WAY and the true meaning of Jesus' sacrifice.

    HE has CONVICTED ME to spread the word and cast out those poor SINNERS who believe that getting involved in politics and making war on their fellow man to make money is the way of christ, IT IS A SIN.

    GET THEE BEHIND me those that think all they have to do is open their heart to Jesus and then use their mis-guided faith to promote hatred, wars and ignorance of scientific facts.

    For they are surely damned to an ETERNITY IN HELL for taking the LORD'S name in vain.

    Cast off your mis-begotten needs to force your value system on others. Cast away your sword and instead pick up the true meaning of christianity instead.

    I pray that your ignorance be lifted by Jesus himself. There is power in the name Jesus!

    Dis-believe me at YOUR ETERNAL PERIL. I have SPOKEN THE WORD.

    DO not laugh, this is not an idle threat, it is merely the TRUTH !!!!!!

    That help?  smile

    1. DeaneMc profile image60
      DeaneMcposted 15 years agoin reply to this

      I do not think your education is a waste. That is not what I meant. I am thankful you have seen the LIGHT. And yes, there is POWER IN THE NAME OF JESUS
      So whatever you believe, it's your choice. I am not your judge. God is. As He is also MINE. Not you !
      I believe what the Bible says. God sent Jesus Christ His only son into the world to save the world from their sins. By the death and resurrection. God said, whoever believes in Jesus will have eternal life.
      Romans 10:13  If you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved; For with the heart man believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation. For the Scripture says whoever believes in Him will not be disappointed. For there is no distinction between Jew, Greek; for the same Lord is Lord of all, abounding in riches for all who call upon Him; for whoever will call upon the name of the Lord will be saved.

      1. Mark Knowles profile image58
        Mark Knowlesposted 15 years agoin reply to this

        Just exactly how does this fit in with your right-wing politics?

  22. profile image0
    sandra rinckposted 15 years ago

    How bizzar the whole thing is.

    I had my encounter with God and the only message I got was, Jesus is the deciever.
    Can't say I don't beleive in devine intervention, can't say that I don't believe that this something called "God' is out there and that life is as mysterious as the breath that we need to live.

    I can say that life will not get any better if people quit insisting that "their" way is right.  Which by saying this puts me in the same catagory, what can I say.  I think what people do in the name of Jesus or religion for that matter is rather barbaric.

    It just doesn't make sense to accept murderes, child molesters, liars, war mongerers, theives and such because they accepted Jesus Christ as their personal savior, and then not accept the ones that help people, feed the poor, volutneer in community service, educate people, bring new things into the world, share kind messages, accept one another just because it feels right, who feel as though preserving the Earth is a good thing to do, are tolerant of people, slow to anger etc...those are the qualities that Jesus posessed, yet they're unacceptable to those who proclaim Jesus Christ as thier personal savior.

    Christainity doesn't make sense.  I could accept him but nothing jives right about him especially when the laws passed down by Moses are completely ignored by those who follow the path of J.C.

    I don't think it takes a rocket scientist or faith to comply to the ten commandments.

    I will put it to you like this.

    1.  God is not a man, nore anything you can put your finger on, point out or know exactly what it is.  It just is.
    2.  don't worhip material objects, which is basically anything crosses and dead guys named Jesus included.
    3. Don't say "" said such and such to get your way.
    4. take a day off
    5. respect your folks even if they piss you off
    6. don't murder
    7. don't steal
    8. don't lie to get someone in trouble
    9. don't cheat on God with Jesus or anyone else.
    10. get your own.

    This would certainly make life a lot simpler, but because some believe that J.C set you free to ignore all of the above doesn't mean your are right, it means you are ignorant and for whatever it is worth, it probabaly is why you need Jesus because your eyes cannot see that "Christains" violate these commandments, especially number 1, and (in this list) number 9 and number 2.

    But hey, what you can't see shouldn't be your fault right?

    1. Ben Bush profile image59
      Ben Bushposted 15 years agoin reply to this

      Sandra, don't let others and their actions get between you and Truth. Everything you mentioned above is specifically addressed by Jesus, including his origin.
      Yes, you can understand that which you cannot see.smile

      1. profile image0
        sandra rinckposted 15 years agoin reply to this

        The only truth I know as "truth" is that "truths" is what "you" believe as the truth.  And what is good for one doesn't mean it is good for another.  This applies as well to Jesus.

        I figure you assume that because you believe that Jesus is the only path that leads to salvation, that all men have to come this way.  I don't believe that is true, that is true for me. 

        I suppose I only get irritated when people make thier assumptions on things that are internal in a person and feel that because it doesn't comply with what you consider the truth, then it must be a lie.

        But I am not knocking what you believe, I knock your methods of approval of other human beings especially when you use Christ because Christ was pretty accepting of everyone, and Christains seem intollerant of anyone who doesn't see Christ or life in the same way.

        So while I call Jesus the deciever, I never said I don't believe him.  I never said I don't believe the Bible either, I just have a different understanding of it and what I understand of it is the truth for me so I don't understand anyones audacity to tell me I am wrong in what I believe when you could be wrong too, but for some of you, you wouldn't even consider that you are all wrong.

        there very well could be no God, no Jesus etc.  So I understand the faith,  what I don't understand is why some will let this life go in a race for one that you may not have. 

        When your dead, your dead.  That is it, there may be a resurection sometime in the very distant future, but what would it matter?  If you make it lucky you, but I wouldn't assume that God would be so cruel to continueing punishing people in pit of fire because they lived in a world that is full of corruption and impossible circumstances.  You are done, that is it.

        Be happy you have this life is what I say.  View life as though you are "as significant as a grain of sand" because this will keep you humble and on track, but love it like it is really special and youselves are special because you got the chance to see it for what it is.

        Those things keep my outlook on life in check, they keep me reaching for better things, a better way of life for everyone not just myself.  But chose your own.

        Who does Jesus love the most?
        The one who went its own way.  smile

        1. Ben Bush profile image59
          Ben Bushposted 15 years agoin reply to this


          In order to believe what you do, you must ignore many htings that Jesus said. For example:

          "I am the Way, the Truth and the Life, no man comes to the Father except through me."
          He that has the Son has life, he that has not the son will not see life."

          This sounds exclusive.

          "I am the resurrection and the life, though a man be dead, yet will he also live."

          This sounds like life after death.

          "I came that you might have life, and have it more abundantly."

          That doesn't sound boring.

          Sandra, there are some who believe certain things because Jesus said it. And there are certain things that are not left up to intuition or personal feelings.

          1. profile image0
            sandra rinckposted 15 years agoin reply to this

            who says I didn't find my way through Jesus? Something to really think about before you make assumptions about what I believe.  smile

            1. Ben Bush profile image59
              Ben Bushposted 15 years agoin reply to this

              If I am to place any stock in the words that you write, then I can come to several different conclusions about what you believe.

              One time you may believe in Jesus, the next you may not.

              One time you may believe Jesus is the only way. The next you may believe there are other ways.

              One time you believe Jesus is the Truth. The next you may be lieve he is a deceiver.

              One time you may believe that what Jesus says is true for all men to abide by. The next you may believe what He says is not true for all men to abide by.

              What I believe about Jesus is irrelevant. What does Jesus say about Himself? Isn't that what's important? Otherwise, aren't we left to make up the Jesus we prefer to have instead of the Jesus that revealed Himself to men? That's a big difference!smile

              1. profile image0
                sandra rinckposted 15 years agoin reply to this

                nope, really I think the big differene is I believe in God and that if there is some saving to done, then God will save me.  I don't care what anyone says because it won't change the outcome for me. 

                Everything will go to where it belongs and I belong to God, not Jesus no matter how much you disagree.  I think it is rather silly to assume that everyone must come through Jesus to be saved.

                I do believe what Jesus says is true, but I understand something extremely different from most of you and most of which you wouldn't ever understand and no matter how detailed I am about what I think, you still wouldn't get it because you have become so, what is the word...um...prided by what you believe and don't leave room for anything else.

                Some people get it some don't.  It was pretty interesting that I get this message a while back, "the calling" if you will that told me to bring the Christian up to God.

                Not through God, to God and just the Christians, why just the Christains???
                I wouldn't tell you the details about it because I am certain you wouldn't believe it anyways.

                I also think that if Jesus did come down here right now and was like "I am Jesus",  you would say something like, if anyone comes in his name and says follow me, they are an angel of dark.  You would deny him right to his face. 

                but whatever.  smile

                1. Ben Bush profile image59
                  Ben Bushposted 15 years agoin reply to this


                  How is you having some message or Truth that you are not going to share with me because I probably wouldn't understand it any different than what you are accusing many Christians of?

                  And no, I wouldn't automatically deny someone that claims to be Jesus. The Bible instructs us when approached by someone like that. If they say or do certain things, then they and their claim are not to be trusted. It's very simple. The bible is the standard when it comes to words and actions, not the personal preferences of any individual. Christ would do and not do certain things as revealed in the Bible.

                  As to whether I would believe you or not, I would also make that decision based on what the Bible has to say about the sunject matter of your revelation or instruction from God. The decision is very simple and determined by a standard outside of myself.

                  Speaking of a standard, Jesus had something to say about the standard of His Person. Who he was. That's why they killed Him, because of who He claimed to be. It disturbed Pilate, who was warned about this person by his wife. Who Jesus was is the dividing line.

                  1. profile image0
                    sandra rinckposted 15 years agoin reply to this

                    because I have already been down that road.

                    would you like to share some of those things?

                    because you would have to search really hard in places you may not want to go, in thoughts you may not fancy, to understand the complexites of what I was told.  Most will not. 

                    It's like a beautiful rose that sit on top of a mountian surrounded by thorn, but promises everlasting life to the one who plucks it. 

                    You would have to reach deep into the things that may be very scary in order to see how beautiful the rose truely is. 

                    Would you care to share some of that?  smile

                    That is a pretty good conclusion, one I wont disagree with.  I think it sounds a lot like Jesus.  smile

  23. Make  Money profile image66
    Make Moneyposted 15 years ago

    Mark DeaneMc did not even mention McCain or Palin in her last post.  I truly see her post as a prayer for you.  You should be thankful instead of continuing to mock God's Word.  It is a very serious issue in God's eyes to make mockery of God's Word or to pick and choose what you want to believe from the Bible.


  24. knolyourself profile image60
    knolyourselfposted 15 years ago

    "It is a very serious issue in God's eyes to make mockery of God's Word or to pick and choose what you want to believe from the Bible." Yea - I can't do it. So guess you just tell me what to do, and suppose I have to do that.


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