Ignorance is not an Excuse
100- Mark Knowles
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Some one just accused me of making a personal attack on them because I said they are ignorant of certain facts. Any one who has interacted with me here will know I try not to make personal attacks, other than to make fun of people, and these threads are littered with snipped personal attacks on me
So, I thought it would be a good idea to start a thread which will hopefully help those who are ignorant of the theories of Darwin and evolution. By no means am I a scientist, but I will do my best to help those who see these theories as a "personal attack," on their belief system to understand them more fully.
I will not attempt to explain the theory of the big bang, because, as I have said before, I do not fully understand the scientific basis for this theory. If some one could introduce me to a Quark, I might change that stance
But I do not think the fact that evolution has no answer for "how it all began," is a valid reason for dismissing it out of hand.
I also do not believe that evolution in any way proves the bible is wrong. It proves it is not to be taken literally, but that is it. It certainly had no bearing on my personal conclusion that there is not a personal god.
I will be using other people's words also. And I am sure this will be a fertile breeding ground for Jenny's anti-evolution hall of fame
The first thing one needs to understand is that these are theories, and as such are scientific knowledge, i.e. that which has been postulated, tested and not yet falsified'
Darwin's theory
"On the Origin of Species by Means of Natural Selection, or the Preservation of Favoured Races in the Struggle for Life,"
This is the basis of Darwin's theory:
1. Species have great fertility. They have more offspring than can grow to adulthood.
2. Populations remain roughly the same size, with small changes.
3. Food resources are limited, but are relatively stable over time.
4. An implicit struggle for survival ensues.
5. In sexually reproducing species, generally no two individuals are identical.
6. Some of these variations directly impact the ability of an individual to survive in a given environment.
7. Much of this variation is inheritable.
8. Individuals less suited to the environment are less likely to survive and less likely to reproduce, while individuals more suited to the environment are more likely to survive and more likely to reproduce.
9. The individuals that survive are most likely to leave their inheritable traits to future generations.
10. This slowly effected process results in populations that adapt to the environment over time, and ultimately, after interminable generations, these variations accumulate to form new varieties, and ultimately, new species.
More information on Darwin, his theory and the adverse reaction it caused are here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Origin_of_Species
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charles_Darwin
As you can see from the following image, many "personal attacks," were made on Darwin after the publication of his book.
It is fair to say that Darwin's theory is the starting poiint for our understanding of the evolutionary process.
The next piece of the puzzle, before reaching evolution,
Genetic Drift
Genetic or "allelic" drift is a completely separate process from natural selection, but helps in our understanding of evolution.
Genetic drift is the evolutionary process of change in the allele frequencies (or gene frequencies) of a population from one generation to the next due to the phenomena of probability in which purely chance events determine which alleles (variants of a gene) within a reproductive population will be carried forward while others disappear. Especially in the case of small populations, the statistical effect of sampling error during random sampling of certain alleles from the overall population may result in an allele, and the biological traits that it confers, to become more common or rare over successive generations, and result in evolutionary change over time. The concept was first introduced by Sewall Wright in the 1920s, and is now held to be one of the primary mechanisms of biological evolution. It is distinct from natural selection, a non-random evolutionary selection process in which the tendency of alleles to become more or less widespread in a population over time is due to the alleles' effects on adaptive and reproductive success.\
This is an attempt to show the process graphically, and there is more information and images here
Which leads us to:
Evolutionary biology
Less we become confused and include other definitions of evolution, I will henceforth use the word "evolution," as it applies in biology, which is defined as:
1. Change in the genetic composition of a population during successive generations, as a result of natural selection acting on the genetic variation among individuals, and resulting in the development of new species.
2. The historical development of a related group of organisms; phylogeny.
Or as wikipedia describes it:
"In biology, evolution is the process of change in the inherited traits of a population of organisms from one generation to the next. The genes that are passed on to an organism's offspring produce the inherited traits that are the basis of evolution. Mutations in genes can produce new or altered traits in individuals, resulting in the appearance of heritable differences between organisms, but new traits also come from the transfer of genes between populations, as in migration, or between species, in horizontal gene transfer. In species that reproduce sexually, new combinations of genes are produced by genetic recombination, which can increase the variation in traits between organisms. Evolution occurs when these heritable differences become more common or rare in a population."
Or in more simple terms:
"Evolution is the process of change in all forms of life over generations, and evolutionary biology is the study of how and why evolution occurs. An organism inherits features (called traits) from its parents through genes. Changes (called mutations) in these genes can produce a new trait in the offspring of an organism. If a new trait makes these offspring better suited to their environment, they will be more successful at surviving and reproducing. This process is called natural selection, and it causes useful traits to become more common. Over many generations, a population can acquire so many new traits that it becomes a new species."
Much like the fact that one line of the bible does not exist in a vacuum and is interrelated with all the other lines in the bible, evolutionary biology does not exist in a vacuum. There are numerous other theories and evidences that combine with, and interact with it to give us a greater understanding of the way the world works.
A few examples would be:
Fossil records
Carbon dating
Sequenced Genomes
All these links are to recognized academic bodies, and I have tried to find the mopst understandable information I can.
For a fuller explanation of the theory, and if you are interested in educating your children at home about the process, I understand this is an excellent book.
Ongoing testing of the theories
These theories are being tested, have been tested, and will continue to be tested. This is what scientists do. One such test here
More testing is here:
http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v2 … 197a0.html
http://www.geocities.com/lclane2/yeastspeciation.html
And for an explanation of why the fact that evolution is "just a theory," does not mean it is invalid or should be dismissed. Go here - Evolution is just a theory
"The important thing to keep in mind is that the everyday definition of the word "theory" is different from its scientific definition. In common usage, theory often means something like "guess" or "hunch". However, in scientific circles, this is not the case. To scientists, a theory is an explanation of some feature of the world that meets three requirements: it is supported by evidence, is testable and falsifiable, and can be used to make predictions."
And no, I have not added any links to all the pseudo-scientific sites that have sprung up. My personal feelings on people offering that sort of information is that I am torn between feeling sorry for them and ..........
Conclusion
For my own part, I do not see the theory of evolution as in any way "proving," the bible wrong. It played no part in my conclusion that there is no such thing as a god.
Yes, it is a theory. And to some one such as myself, it is a theory that actually makes sense.
This is one of my personal litmus tests. "Does it make sense?"
I accept that if one takes the bible as a literal TRUTH, then of course it will not make any sense. If you already have all the "facts," you need by reading your bible, then I have wasted my breath.
But if you are interested in learning about the facts and tests and observations that have caused scientists to postulate these theories, knock yourself out. Glad to be of assistance.
Let the games beginGreat hub Mark!
This is a topic which I´ll follow attentively and I´m sure I´ll LOL with some of the following posts
.- 100
- Mark Knowles
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funride wrote:
Great hub Mark!
This is a topic which I´ll follow attentively and I´m sure I´ll LOL with some of the following posts. 
98- Zsuzsy Bee
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Come on Mark you just have to add Erich von Däniken theories into this mix. If he is to be believed in any way shape or form his "God-like" beings must play a big role in how humanity has 'evolved' in the last 3000 or so odd years. I usually stay out of religious debates because I have my own take on things and they do include a God. But your awesome post just begged for a comment.
(Question: why would you put all this great work into forum posting and not into a super duper hub?)
I sure miss your regular snarkies around hubpages...
regards Zsuzsy
83- Inspirepub
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I don't know that science has been able to find much supporting evidence yet that the Ancient Egyptian gods were actually aliens - although the notion did spawn the mildly amusing Sci Fi series, Stargate, which takes itself not seriously at all.
Jenny- 100
- Mark Knowles
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Zsuzsy Bee wrote:
Come on Mark you just have to add Erich von Däniken theories into this mix. If he is to be believed in any way shape or form his "God-like" beings must play a big role in how humanity has 'evolved' in the last 3000 or so odd years. I usually stay out of religious debates because I have my own take on things and they do include a God. But your awesome post just begged for a comment.
(Question: why would you put all this great work into forum posting and not into a super duper hub?)
I sure miss your regular snarkies around hubpages...
regards Zsuzsylol
I hope you are not suggesting that Mr. Daniken's theories are of equal weight ?
I don't blame you for staying out of religious debates. That is a matter between you and your god. Unless you think everyone else should believe the same things that you do
And as for making a forum post rather than a hub, I would think I would miss my target audience if I had done so.
Jenny - Gotta love Stargate. - 98
- Zsuzsy Bee
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Mark Knowles wrote:
Zsuzsy Bee wrote:
Come on Mark you just have to add Erich von Däniken theories into this mix. If he is to be believed in any way shape or form his "God-like" beings must play a big role in how humanity has 'evolved' in the last 3000 or so odd years. I usually stay out of religious debates because I have my own take on things and they do include a God. But your awesome post just begged for a comment.
(Question: why would you put all this great work into forum posting and not into a super duper hub?)
I sure miss your regular snarkies around hubpages...
regards Zsuzsylol
I hope you are not suggesting that Mr. Daniken's theories are of equal weight ?
I don't blame you for staying out of religious debates. That is a matter between you and your god. Unless you think everyone else should believe the same things that you do
And as for making a forum post rather than a hub, I would think I would miss my target audience if I had done so.
Jenny - Gotta love Stargate.Never of equal weight Mark just a minute part of the whole as far as I'm concerned...
Science and religion are two different things.Science is full of theories but we see a few laws in the biological sciences.However science may help to understand nature and its laws in some ways.A theory can be true or be proved false later.
96- sandra rinck
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Mark Knowles wrote:
Hey one of the Chimps has boobies
What are you trying to say... 
- 100
- Mark Knowles
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sandra rinck wrote:
Mark Knowles wrote:
Hey one of the Chimps has boobies
What are you trying to say...
That men and women are both descended from apes. Not just men? Mark Knowles wrote:
sandra rinck wrote:
Mark Knowles wrote:
Hey one of the Chimps has boobies
What are you trying to say...
That men and women are both descended from apes. Not just men?- 96
- sandra rinck
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Mark Knowles wrote:
sandra rinck wrote:
Mark Knowles wrote:
Hey one of the Chimps has boobies
What are you trying to say...
That men and women are both descended from apes. Not just men?What is your take on primordial goo?
Great post.
I think I need to read the evolutionary theory test links before responsing.
for now , as I am one of your audience Mark, I think that evolution as the only chance for atheism must not be taught as a science but a theory.
neither false nor true, teaching evolution should be so biased.
and it is the same thing for religions.
people should listen to each sides equally.
and let the games begin as you say.
I hope God or chance will help me here writting in English.
Mohammed- 100
- Mark Knowles
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Eng.M wrote:
Great post.
I think I need to read the evolutionary theory test links before responsing.
for now , as I am one of your audience Mark, I think that evolution as the only chance for atheism must not be taught as a science but a theory.
neither false nor true, teaching evolution should be so biased.
and it is the same thing for religions.
people should listen to each sides equally.
and let the games begin as you say.
I hope God or chance will help me here writting in English.
MohammedMy pleasure Eng.M
Although I have to say, evolution has never been taught as anything other than a scientific theory.
And my atheism has nothing to do with it. The one does not preclude or prove the other
I have always attempted to see past your lack of English, and I hope you receive the help you ask for. 
82- knolyourself
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Don't think one can deny evolutionary changes, like humans that eat a lot of protein tend to become taller over generations, such as we are seeing now. Noticed hiking in Lassen Volcanic National Park, a landscape destroyed 'Starting in May 1914 and lasting until 1921, a series of minor to major eruptions occurred on Lassen.', that the trees there as only 70 years old, seemed to
do a lot of experimenting, with varying growth forms. What I would like to know: is there ever a change or evolution, from one species to another, that has been proven scientifically? If so I have never seen it. This seems to be the crux for most people.
86- Make Money
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Mark are you saying that you want to just disgust Darwin's hypothesis "On the Origin of Species" and not all the other hypothesis that it has spawned, like the big bang hypothesis, the black holes hypothesis or "Survival of the fittest"?
The reason why I ask is because when evolution is talked about all of these hypothesis are taken into account.
"Survival of the fittest" is a scary notion in itself because before and around the turn of the 20th century some races considered themselves superior to other races (examples - English, German and French). Some still do because of "Survival of the fittest". Some scholars contend that "Survival of the fittest" has lead to predatory corporations or groups that think they are superior (like the Arian nation, neo-nazi groups and even Jewish supremacy groups like Zionism). Zionism was founded just after Darwin's "Survival of the fittest".
Quote from this site http://www.jewsagainstzionism.com/zionism/herzl/
"Theodor Herzl, an Austrian Jew born to a prosperous, emancipated Budapest family, is recognized as the founder of the Zionist idealogy when he published his book in 1896,"
Some scholars even suggest that the first and second world wars were brought about by Darwin's phrase the "survival of the fittest" (the Nazis had the German, Austrian and some Hungarian people believe they were a superior Arian race).
Quote from this site http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Survival_of_the_fittest
"Survival of the fittest" is a phrase which is shorthand for a concept relating to competition for survival or predominance. Originally applied by Herbert Spencer in his Principles of Biology of 1864, Spencer drew parallels to his ideas of economics with Charles Darwin's theories of evolution by what Darwin termed natural selection.
Although Darwin used the phrase "survival of the fittest" as a synonym for "natural selection",[1] it is a metaphor, not a scientific description.[2] It is not generally used by modern biologists, who use the phrase "natural selection" almost exclusively."
I believe it is dangerous to talk about evolution with just Darwin's hypothesis "On the Origin of Species" without mentioning at least the problems that have and may continue to arise from the "Survival of the fittest".
Peace
Mikethe race has begun
I think this will be the longest thread ever- 100
- Mark Knowles
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Mike -
I think it is a stretch to say that the big bang hypothesis or the black holes hypothesis were "spawned," by Darwin's theory. But - if you have some evidence of that, I am open to listening to what you have to say.
Personally, I do not see any connection, and I am fairly certain Darwin has no idea of either of these when he first postulated his theory.
And I am still not understanding how you are somehow saying that lack of proof for black holes some how discredits evolutionary biology. But I am all ears.
I also think you are twisting his theory to suit yourself. "Survival of the fittest," was a purely biological term, and I think it is fair to say that races have considered themselves "superior" to other races since the beginning of time. Certainly the bible makes reference to the"Chosen" people.
Make Money wrote:
Some scholars contend that "Survival of the fittest" has lead to predatory corporations or groups that think they are superior (like the Arian nation, neo-nazi groups and even Jewish supremacy groups like Zionism). Zionism was founded just after Darwin's "Survival of the fittest".Once again, I would like to see some evidence of this, so feel free to leave a link to these "scholars," that make this contention.
Make Money wrote:
Some scholars even suggest that the first and second world wars were brought about by Darwin's phrase the "survival of the fittest" (the Nazis had the German, Austrian and some Hungarian people believe they were a superior Arian race).Well, I don't know anything about that either. I know The German Nazi party promoted "Christian nationalism," and "positive christianity." But I was not aware that they reached these ideals because of Darwin's theories. Once again, please leave a link or two.
Make Money wrote:
I believe it is dangerous to talk about evolution with just Darwin's hypothesis "On the Origin of Species" without mentioning at least the problems that have and may continue to arise from the "Survival of the fittest".Please re-read what I said in the first place. I made it clear that Darwin's theory is but the beginning and there are other theories involved.
Although, one more time, please leave me a link to some scholarly statements regarding the "problems," that have arisen from this.
Pax dude. - 82
- knolyourself
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"Survival of the fittest", no doubt a problem and a favorite term of many a 'successful' capitalist. But perhaps a worse problem
historically is the Christian propensity of murdering and thieving from pagans. You (the state) get their lands and possessions, and we (the church) get their souls. This might be a theory of the 'Evolution of Soul', from the damned to salvation. - 100
- Mark Knowles
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knolyourself wrote:
"Survival of the fittest", no doubt a problem and a favorite term of many a 'successful' capitalist. But perhaps a worse problem
historically is the Christian propensity of murdering and thieving from pagans. You (the state) get their lands and possessions, and we (the church) get their souls. This might be a theory of the 'Evolution of Soul', from the damned to salvation.I have to agree with your assessment. But that does not make either of them wrong.
