Is God Omniscent?

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  1. wilderness profile image93
    wildernessposted 12 years ago

    The question is intended for the believers out there in hubberland and I offer the following thoughts for your consideration:

       [om-nish-uhnt] Show IPA
    having complete or unlimited knowledge, awareness, or understanding; perceiving all things"

    1)  If God is omniscent then He knows the future. (by definition)

    2) If God knows the future then He knows your personal future.  He knows what you will have for breakfast tomorrow, when you will die and what your ultimate disposition will be (heaven or hell).  What you might perceive as change in your life (perhaps being saved one day) is already known to God.  Nothing you can do will change that future - it is already written in the Good Witch Glendas book, so to speak.  This is also by definition.

    If conclusion 2) is true then the concept of predestination is factual; a thought that most of us find abhorrent and unacceptable.  It means that we have no free will; that every step in our lives is preordained and unchangeable.

    On the other hand, if conclusion 2) is false then premise 2) is also false.  If premise 2) is false (it is also conclusion 1)) then premise 1 is also false and God is not omniscent.

    A necessary corollary, using the same logic structure, is that if God is not omniscent He is not omnipotent either (there is something He can't do; see the future).

    Comments?  Is God neither omniscient nor omnipotent but you have free will to decide whether or not to follow God's word?  Or is God omniscient and your entire life is structured in such a way that nothing you can do will change any part of it?

    Secondary question; what kind of God is neither omniscient nor omnipotent?  It would seem to be a requirement for Godhood...

    1. profile image0
      jomineposted 12 years agoin reply to this

      Who is omniscient?
      What is "god"?

      1. wilderness profile image93
        wildernessposted 12 years agoin reply to this

        God is omniscient.  (declaration from believers)

        No one and nothing.  (necessary conclusion from the above sentence and the OP.

    2. kess profile image59
      kessposted 12 years agoin reply to this

      The sum total of all men knowledge is God so therefore he is omniscient.
      The concept of free will and predestination both belong to God .....

      but because God is perfection He is also harmonious in every way.....this means that that both the knowledge of free will and predestination will exist in harmony with each other and that is where God dwells .
      For God is the perfect understanding of all things.

      1. profile image0
        jomineposted 11 years agoin reply to this

        babble, as usual

  2. Cagsil profile image72
    Cagsilposted 12 years ago

    Oh no, logic and reasoning. What will the religious do? lol

  3. profile image0
    Emile Rposted 12 years ago

    You guys do realize that omniscience doesn't negate free will?

    1. wilderness profile image93
      wildernessposted 12 years agoin reply to this

      Hmmm.  Where is the failure of the logic structure?

      1. profile image0
        Emile Rposted 12 years agoin reply to this

        You've got to throw the concept out of time. Think about it. If you can see time, from one end to the other, you can easily know everything that has, is or will happen; without directly affecting it. Compare it to a DVD. You can watch it straight through or select any particular scene to watch. No matter where you come in, you don't affect the movie in any way. No matter how many times you watch it, you can't change the outcome.

        Maybe, if there is a God, that entity is not tied to time. That doesn't mean we aren't. We wouldn't necessarily by predestined to a certain fate, simply because he knew our fate. He simply watched us make our choices.

        1. wilderness profile image93
          wildernessposted 12 years agoin reply to this

          I'm not following your reasoning.  Your life is one of a stack of records that God cut when He created the universe.  We agree here.

          On groove 58 of that record (three years hence) God recorded that you murdered your neighbor in cold blood because he had a loud party one night.

          In three years will you perform the murder according to the record or will your free will allow you to change that record, recording new information over what God made, and thus proving that God cut it wrong in the first place?

          As you say, no matter when you start the record it is the same; you can't change it.  As God already watched us make the choices we make in order to cut that record, we can't change it.  You WILL murder your neighbor, and nothing, nothing at all, can change that fact.

          1. profile image0
            Emile Rposted 12 years agoin reply to this

            I don't really understand the God cut a record comment.  Predestination doesn't fit into it. Sure, a god would know the outcome; but that's because a god would be omnipresent. He watched it as it was happening, was there in the end and was also there at the beginning. All at the same time.  Just because you can know all and see all; doesn't mean you affect the outcome. It doesn't mean that anyone was forced to make any choices.  You simply know the choices they make.

            Not only that, I would assume that, at no point in history, is the future set in stone with this scenario.  Every choice we make would be a butterfly effect on the march of history.  But, since omnipresence allows the god to see all time at the same time, he would see the changes made on down the line by each choice made. So, the future woud be constantly changing, but always known.

            1. wilderness profile image93
              wildernessposted 12 years agoin reply to this

              I see.  I think.  Language does not do justice to this concept.

              You performed the action in the future, where you had free will and God watched you do it.  He therefore knows what you did then, while maintaining the fiction of free will.  At the moment of creation He also watched all the future (and cut that record of what He saw) while you used free will to make choices.

              Those choices are made, however, and are unchangeable.  We are in the now, not the future, and cannot undo the choices we made in the future.

              I have a few objections to this.  You are treating the future as the past; to God it is all the same.  There is no indication that I am aware of that this is possible.  The only way you can assume it is to assume the premises that God exists, is omniscient, omnipresent, omnipotent are all true and argue in a circular logic from there, concluding that your premise is true.

              You are assuming that there is somewhere outside our universe that God exists in while he watches and has watched that which has not happened.  Again, there is no evidence that is possible.

              It would thus appear, putting it basically and simply, that you require omniscience AND free will so you will declare that that which is impossible is possible to God.  Once more, a circular logic which assumes that which is to be proven, but works in that context.

              Thank you.

              1. profile image0
                Emile Rposted 12 years agoin reply to this

                Well, you are right.  It isn't possible if you throw it in the pan with everything you know about the way the universe works. But, if you start with the premise of God, outside of time, it isn't really circular logic.  You have to first believe in the possiblity of God.

                When I did believe in God, I always assumed we were a bored game. and I didn't misspell that. I just thought it was probably a big game for him to wile away some time in eternity.  Kind of a Kobiashi Maru. He wrote the story's end, but we had mostly free will.  He would make a little change here, a little change there, at different moments in time and he'd keep on making little changes until he got the end result he was looking for. So, free will, for the most part; as long as we didn't screw up the game.

                Edit:  I hadn't thought about this in years.  Typing it out.  It just occurred to me.  There is the possiblity that it is all free will.  If you take into account the multiverse theory.

                1. profile image0
                  jomineposted 12 years agoin reply to this

                  God cannot be outside time as time is a concept. Only if time is a "thing", god can be inside or outside of it. Now if gods knows for sure, our future, that means our future is gods past. How can the past be changed, even though it is our future, hence free will is a mirage, if there is an omnipotent god.
                  That is if god can see our future, can we, with our free will, change it? No, for if we change it god does not omniscient-ed.
                  Eg:- I put a cake on the table, and I make a guess that my son will take it. If I'm 100% sure my son would take it(what we do is  make intelligent guess, but here I mean omniscience), he should take it and has no choice, but to take it.

                  1. profile image0
                    Emile Rposted 12 years agoin reply to this

                    I have one word for you. Multiverse. But, just so you know; its a fun thing to try and figure out. Not something I believe in.

                    And you sound like you're talking about one of the Merlin tales. I don't think you quite understand what I'm saying.  Think about a mountain. By our perception, it feels as if it has been there forever. It hasn't. That's just perception.

                    Energy is eternal. Is it tied to the concept of time? I don't know.

    2. profile image0
      jomineposted 12 years agoin reply to this

      It negate free will. If god doesn't have a 100% knowledge of future, we can say, at best, he is making an educated guess, then he is not omniscient. If he is omniscient that means our future is gods past, like a director of a cartoon movie, then we have no free will. For god has predestined it, we cannot change it with our free will.

      1. wilderness profile image93
        wildernessposted 12 years agoin reply to this

        So it seems to me, but I am interested in the reasoning of those that believe otherwise which is why I posted in the manner I did.  I would like to understand how others come to their conclusion.

  4. wudie profile image54
    wudieposted 12 years ago

    apparently God knows my future as it seems to be that the future progresses towards him. if this is the case, God knows that I will deny him. he knows that if I get an alter call I will not heed to it. therefore he knows that my destiny is hell. thus being so, WHY THE HELL WAS I CREATED??????

    1. earnestshub profile image84
      earnestshubposted 12 years agoin reply to this

      You can think pretty well, so you must be one of those who were born and not "created" smile

      1. profile image0
        Emile Rposted 12 years agoin reply to this

        Don't be ridiculous. There are those in both camps who think. As do those of us in between. The non thinkers are the ones that assume we've figured out the mysteries of existence and taken sides. If everyone had your attitude we'd simply hunker down and wait it all out. Oh wait, that's what the zealots on both sides have already done. smile

        1. earnestshub profile image84
          earnestshubposted 12 years agoin reply to this

          Don't be ridiculous!
          There is no thinking required for the creationist argument, in fact there is no creationist argument, there never has been one bit of sense in the whole thing. smile

          1. profile image0
            Emile Rposted 12 years agoin reply to this

            I agree, but those are the zealots on that side. Like I said, the zealots on both sides gave up on the question. God created everything. Existence exists. They are both pointless statements, void of answers

  5. earnestshub profile image84
    earnestshubposted 12 years ago

    “Where we have reasons for what we believe, we have no need of faith; where we have no reasons, we have lost both our connection to the world and to one another.”
    ― Sam Harris

  6. profile image0
    Béla Mongyiposted 11 years ago

    The word omniscient does not sound to me like a religious term, rather a scientific one. Question is why is there a scientific term for something that doesn't exist?

    1. profile image0
      jomineposted 11 years agoin reply to this

      Its an English term, not a scientific term!!

  7. profile image51
    paarsurreyposted 11 years ago

    Is God Omniscent?

    The Creator God is certainly Omniscent.


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