Why do atheists say God doesn't exist because there is suffering?

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  1. Claire Evans profile image65
    Claire Evansposted 11 years ago

    That's the typical Sam Harris argument.  How does suffering negate God's existence? Maybe He's just watching.  It doesn't mean He doesn't exist and for anyone to bring up suffering as proof of no God is indication of a logical fallacy.

    1. wilderness profile image75
      wildernessposted 11 years agoin reply to this

      I find that to be a fallacious argument as well.  Implicit in the statement is that God doesn't like to see people suffer, that He could stop it but doesn't, that he knows it is there (is watching) as well as other inferences.  None of which we know to be true.

      One could, however, say that the God described by most Christians (omniscient, omnipotent, all loving, etc.) does not exist.  By human standards those characteristics do not equate with a god that allows massive suffering, and that "by human standards" makes the argument somewhat weak, but it is still valid to a point.

      1. Claire Evans profile image65
        Claire Evansposted 11 years agoin reply to this

        How do you think God should stop suffering? Destroy Satan when the world has chosen him to be their leader? Why would Jesus worship God when He allowed Himself to suffer?  The spiritual refinement that comes out of suffering is amazing if one allows themselves to grow for the better.

        1. profile image0
          riddle666posted 11 years agoin reply to this

          Why, the omnipotent god is not potent enough? He needs the world's consent?

          1. Claire Evans profile image65
            Claire Evansposted 11 years agoin reply to this

            He cares about what we want.  Do you want to be forced to worship God?

            1. profile image0
              riddle666posted 11 years agoin reply to this

              Why god didn't kill Satan is the question.

              1. Claire Evans profile image65
                Claire Evansposted 11 years agoin reply to this

                You can't kill a spirit.  I ask you again, do you want to be forced to worship God?Much of what we have in life are from Satan.

                1. profile image0
                  riddle666posted 11 years agoin reply to this

                  Yes, one cannot kill that which do not exist.

                  What has satan got to do with worship of god.

                  Then pray and thank satan instead of god, why being ungrateful?

                  1. Claire Evans profile image65
                    Claire Evansposted 11 years agoin reply to this

                    Irony is you associate yourself with his number.






                    If you don't want Satan to thrive you must obey God all the time.  Do you want to be forced to obey Him? Nobody can possibly obey God all the time






                    Should I thank Satan for evil?  Most things in this life are evil.  Satan isn't responsible for beautiful things in life but evil is far more prevalent.

                2. gabgirl12 profile image60
                  gabgirl12posted 11 years agoin reply to this

                  Yes WHY DIDNT GOT KILL SATAN? Don't avoid the question as if wasn't irrelevant! If there is nothing impossible for 'god' why didn't he obliterate Satan? Does it stand to reason that one perfect creates another perfect being just so that perfect being 'sins' near the throne? And then creating a planet placing that now 'imperfect' being with 'lesser but perfect beings' tempting them to sin considering it never originated from them.  Now condemning all those perfect beings to hell.

                  This is monotheistic religion in a nutshell: The Illusion of Free Will

                  If a man holds a gun to your head and asks you whether or not you want him to pull the trigger , how much freedom of choice do you have? So if a religion tells you that eternal damnation awaits you for not adhering , how much free will do they offer?

                  There is no free will. All this was man made. All these pastors tripping into giving your money because you 'owe' a deity you can't see, hear, smell or touch. They condemn you and if you adhere they preach about a god of love and they help you. If you don't they use their authority and point out what according to their biblical standard is a sin constantly. They don't LEAVE you alone. This is terrorism. On top of that they take advantage of your vulnerabilities and your weaknesses just to get you in their congregation saying that at some point, you'll hit the lottery and god will give you all your hopes and dreams like a genie if you obey?

                  NO!, you know what? because its all BS meant to try and control people's minds and thoughts. The mind of Christ is the mind of your pastor and/or minister, and I won't be tricked into giving my life up for something that isnt real just because you or anyone else who thinks they have some kind of spiritual authority says so.

                  Creation itself is a complete waste of time and all for what, so a deity can make itself great? That's a serious ego complex and considering the creative and imaginative nature of 'humanity', yeah he did invent a 'god' to impress his territorial instincts on others. .

                  1. profile image0
                    jonnycomelatelyposted 11 years agoin reply to this

                    A sort of Amway presenter with angel's wings? wink

                    After a good night's sleep, good morning everyone.

                  2. Claire Evans profile image65
                    Claire Evansposted 11 years agoin reply to this

                    Because both Satan and God share power on earth, Satan by far having the most.  Where in the Bible does it say that so-called perfect being sinned near the throne? Both Satan and God are responsible for the universe.  Everything is made of opposites like an atom.  God and Satan are opposites.



                    If a man holds a gun to your head and asks you whether or not you want him to pull the trigger , how much freedom of choice do you have? So if a religion tells you that eternal damnation awaits you for not adhering , how much free will do they offer?

                    Of course someone is going to say they don't want to be shot.  They could make the choice to say nothing, though, or call his bluff and say, "Go for it."  or attempt to run away. Saying they don't want to be shot is not the only option they have. 

                    One has free will whether to commit evil or not.  Those who are unrepentant and know what they are doing choose to keep their sin which God cannot go near.  Eternal damnation is the complete separation from God.   Repentance unites us with God.  No one goes to hell because they were an atheist.  Right until the end and beyond on Judgement Day we have a choice.  Do we want to stay with sin thus joining Satan in hell or do we want to remedy our sin and be with God.  It's still a choice.



                    Don't associate those pastors with God.



                    Did Jesus behave like that? Did He demand tithes or threaten them with hell? Did He constantly condemn sinners and not give them a chance to repent? Are those pastors having the mind of Christ?




                    How about God wanting our love and companionship?

                  3. SpanStar profile image59
                    SpanStarposted 11 years agoin reply to this

                    "Yes WHY DIDNT GOT KILL SATAN?"

                    What I am about to say I read a very long time ago.

                    Lucifer during the time he was in heaven was a leader and had a large impact on other angels. Once Lucifer was cast out of heaven God could have destroyed him then and there but if he had done so other angels might question maybe Lucifer had some validity to the claims he was making as far as taking over heaven.

                    Now the following is from me.

                    After all this time heaven and earth can now judge for themselves what Satan is really like.

                  4. Astralrose profile image80
                    Astralroseposted 11 years agoin reply to this

                    Well said gabgirl. And yeah, religion is all about control.

                  5. soldout777 profile image60
                    soldout777posted 11 years agoin reply to this

                    Christianity is about a personal relationship with Jesus. Without having that relationship you can't understand a thing about what the other person is telling. It's all about love man. I know you won't understand, but hey it's fine....

                    Don't act as if you know everything about something when you don't know anything at all!

                3. A Thousand Words profile image68
                  A Thousand Wordsposted 11 years agoin reply to this

                  So God isn't all powerful? I'd imagine something that can bring a being into existence can also take it out of existence.

                  1. Claire Evans profile image65
                    Claire Evansposted 11 years agoin reply to this

                    God did not bring Satan into existence.

            2. chatpilot profile image68
              chatpilotposted 11 years agoin reply to this

              "He cares about what we want.  Do you want to be forced to worship God?"

              Being forced to serve God if you take the Bible to be his word is exactly what you have been subjected to. According to the scriptures there are only two "choices" either you serve God or you don't. One option promises rewards in heaven and eternal life in the presence of God and the other comes with the threat of eternal torment in hell.

              That's like putting a gun to someones head and saying you have only two choices: you can call me master and do everything I tell you to do or you can or you can endure an eternity of agonizing torture without being able to die. That is not an option nor free will it is a threat and an ultimatum.

              1. profile image0
                Deepes Mindposted 11 years agoin reply to this

                Depending on how you view your life.. LOL.. There may be some that do not care one way or the other whether the trigger is pulled or not.

                1. A Troubled Man profile image59
                  A Troubled Manposted 11 years agoin reply to this

                  That's fine, but that doesn't diminish the fact it is still a threat.

                  1. profile image0
                    Deepes Mindposted 11 years agoin reply to this

                    Not to the person possibly looking to end his or her life

                2. chatpilot profile image68
                  chatpilotposted 11 years agoin reply to this

                  Obviously you don't  seem to get what I meant with that analogy. The Biblical view of life is not life at all. Based on the Bible we are all born with a sin debt owed to God which we could never fulfill. Only through the acceptance of Jesus Christ as our Lord (master) and savior can we be redeemed and reconciled with God. 

                  The very language used in the Bible about mans relationship to God is that same language used when one speaks of slavery. As a Christian you are a "servant" of the Lord (master). Your so called free will is only applicable to your choice to submit to God's will once you do so your will then is to do God's will and live in a manner that is pleasing to him.

                  The Bible speaks about obedience and disobedience and just like a human slave master would punish a slave for not obeying with lashed or even hanging your God punishes man for the same offenses namely disobedience. Except God's punishment is not just in life but follows you into death making your god worse than any monster that man could ever imagine. Your religion is entirely based on fear. You don't believe me read if for yourself.

                  4“I tell you, my friends, do not be afraid of those who kill the body and after that can do no more. 5But I will show you whom you should fear: Fear him who, after your body has been killed, has authority to throw you into hell. Yes, I tell you, fear him." Luke 12:4-5 (NIV)

                  This verse and others like it warn you to fear God

                  1. Raitu Disong profile image61
                    Raitu Disongposted 11 years agoin reply to this
                  2. profile image0
                    Deepes Mindposted 11 years agoin reply to this

                    I actually did get it.. I was trying to be humorous.

              2. profile image0
                christiananrkistposted 11 years agoin reply to this

                People sometimes over complicate things. God wants a relationship with us. we either accept it or not. Hell is eternal separation from God. This results in torment (not torture) being eternally separated from God's grace and goodness. This is nothing like the gun to the head scenario. also to answer the question of God not destroying Satan. God doesn't destroy his creations. And please don't bring up the flood or anything else like that. Just because God to their lives on earth doesn't mean they are destroyed for eternity. Eternal live is something i think a lot of atheist have a hard time grasping. Also Satan is the great tempter, but mans deeds and thought are evil anyway. The bible does say man prefers darkness over light. This is why Jesus pays the debt of mankind in doing, we might be able to reconcile with God and establish the relationship with him that he longs for.

                1. chatpilot profile image68
                  chatpilotposted 11 years agoin reply to this

                  I've been there and done that. How do you know what God wants? First of all so called divine revelation is not a valid means of obtainiing knowledge. Thomas Paines summed it up nicely in 'The Age of Reason'

                  "No one will deny or dispute the power of the Almighty to make such a communication, if he pleases. But admitting, for the sake of a case, that something has been revealed to a certain person, and not revealed to any other person, it is revelation to that person only. When he tells it to a second person, a second to a third, a third to a fourth, and so on, it ceases to be a revelation to all those persons. It is revelation to the first person only, and hearsay to every other, and consequently they are not obliged to believe it."

                  Not to mention the fact that the majority of the BIbles authors are unknown since most of their works were written by anonymous authors and have been edited and redacted. There are no existing original texts of the scriptures what we have are copies of copies of copies. None of the synoptic gospels are first hand accounts of the life of Jesus. In fact Mark was the first one composed and it is dated to about 65 or 70CE All three synoptic gospels were presented as anonymous works and were not given the names we know today till till the mid to late second century.

                  So basically everything you claim to know about God through the scriptures is worthless.

                  1. profile image0
                    christiananrkistposted 11 years agoin reply to this

                    Why do people always bring up the bible is copies of copies blah blah. So what? That's pretty much how historical documents or found. That fact that we have so many copies just makes it more reliable. This is because we can compare the copies and correct the mistakes like a word left out in a certain area a grammatical error or a misspelling (which is what most of the differences are by the way). When people her of king tut they don't say. well all we have is copies of copies. also that mark was written in 65 of 70 also makes it pretty reliable.Document on many other historical figures aren't found within a life time of their passing.  People seem to have unrealistic standards for the bible. Jesus was right when he said even if Moses came back to life , you still wouldn't believe.

                2. Mark Knowles profile image60
                  Mark Knowlesposted 11 years agoin reply to this

                  Well - which is it? Did Jesus pay the debt that god forced us to carry or do we have to actually believe garbage in order to spend eternity in the majik kingdom after we are not dead?

                  1. profile image0
                    christiananrkistposted 11 years agoin reply to this

                    To be honest I'm not sure which part you didn't understand. Yes, Jesus paid or debt. Not sure how you didn't catch that one. I also don't see how God forced us to carry a debt. Do you even know what that means? You don't get forced to owe somebody something, you just owe based on you're actions.  I also love how you use the term magic (not majik) kingdom. That is actually pretty funny but that's not the christian belief. The belief is we spend eternity with or creator. If that isn't what you want then its your choice. Why be so hateful though towards people who do choose that?

                  2. profile image28
                    puellaposted 11 years agoin reply to this

                    Mark! still stilled?

              3. Claire Evans profile image65
                Claire Evansposted 11 years agoin reply to this

                It is true that you either serve God or not but what is the alternative to serving God? It is serving Satan in though in most cases it is unwittingly and indirectly.   Hell is the complete absence of God.  If you don't want to be with God then Satan will claim you.  God is not handing you over to Satan.  He does everything in His power to avoid that like taking on our sin.

        2. janesix profile image61
          janesixposted 11 years agoin reply to this

          Funny. I don't remember choosing Satan as my leader.

          1. Claire Evans profile image65
            Claire Evansposted 11 years agoin reply to this

            No, not everybody consciously chooses Satan as their leader.  When we sin we hand Satan the power.  So we enable him and cooperate with him.  If one does not choose Jesus as their saviour they are doing exactly what Satan wants them to do.

            1. Disappearinghead profile image61
              Disappearingheadposted 11 years agoin reply to this

              Evidence for those claims?

              1. Claire Evans profile image65
                Claire Evansposted 11 years agoin reply to this

                Take for example a corrupt politician.  If we see he does evil and we just ignore that and continue to support him still erroneously believing he has their best intentions at heart then those people are indirectly giving him power by not condemning him.

                How many people condemn the West for supporting those murderous Free Syrian Army.  Take for example Obama and Cameron.  They are committing war crimes by supporting them but how many people will condemn them and not give them any votes?

                That's all Satan needs to thrive.  People who don't challenge him and don't expose evil and condemn it.

                1. profile image0
                  jonnycomelatelyposted 11 years agoin reply to this

                  Claire, for the first time I can agree with your metaphor.

                2. chatpilot profile image68
                  chatpilotposted 11 years agoin reply to this

                  If that's the case then Christians are aiding and abetting Satan by not challenging God for his evil deeds towards humanity. Although I am pretty sure that the majority of the tales in the Bible are false and mythological I will use them as examples.

                  He destroyed the entire world once, supposedly led the Hebrews on a Caananit conquests which involved slaughtering whole towns including men, women, and children. he destroyed the towns of Sodom and Gamorrah, killed all the firstborn sons of Egypt including livestock. So why aren't believers calling their God on these horrendous acts?

                  1. Claire Evans profile image65
                    Claire Evansposted 11 years agoin reply to this

                    Why are believers not questioning the lies about most of the OT? It is based on pagan nonsense.  The literal translation says God is a singular word for ETs.  Moses interacted with ETs not God.   

                    I find it horrendous to try and point this out to Christians yet they side step the issue.

            2. profile image0
              Deepes Mindposted 11 years agoin reply to this

              But when we repent we take that power back and return it to God, do we not?

              1. Claire Evans profile image65
                Claire Evansposted 11 years agoin reply to this

                How many people do you think truly repents? Not enough to disable all of Satan's power.  And, of course, people repent but are human and sin again.

                1. profile image52
                  krzystoffposted 11 years agoin reply to this

                  if you don't believe in (Angels, Devils, Faeries, Eleves, Elementals, Nature Spirits, Woodland Creatures, etc) they will cease to exist.

                  1. profile image0
                    jonnycomelatelyposted 11 years agoin reply to this

                    Oh! krzystoff, what a spoil-sport you are.... so many people depend on those beliefs to support their rich lifestyles.   Would you want to deprive them?  smile

            3. gabgirl12 profile image60
              gabgirl12posted 11 years agoin reply to this

              The only people who choose Satan as their leader are called Satanists. The only reason you say 'not everybody consciously' chooses is because we're not consciously following you. Anyone can say that to get their way. What's next? we stop being human beings too?

              1. profile image0
                Deepes Mindposted 11 years agoin reply to this

                You must have not gotten to the part where she said we all have alien DNA inside of us

              2. Claire Evans profile image65
                Claire Evansposted 11 years agoin reply to this

                That's ridiculous.

            4. chatpilot profile image68
              chatpilotposted 11 years agoin reply to this

              First you must prove that your god, his son, and Satan exist.

              1. janesix profile image61
                janesixposted 11 years agoin reply to this

                Why? Either you believe or you don't.

                1. chatpilot profile image68
                  chatpilotposted 11 years agoin reply to this

                  It's called the burden of proof and since you are making an absolute claim that God exists it's up to you to provide evidence of that. You actually can't prove it objecitively or emperically. The reason for this is that you believe in God based on faith which requires no evidence. Also, conveniently your god supposedly exists outside of the reach of scientific scrutiny.

                  1. janesix profile image61
                    janesixposted 11 years agoin reply to this

                    Then don't worry about it. Move on. Why do you atheists care what we believe anyway? Get a hobby.

              2. Claire Evans profile image65
                Claire Evansposted 11 years agoin reply to this

                The thing is that evidence for God and Satan is construed by believers must differently than those who don't.  So I can give you evidence but you won't have the ability to be convinced it is from God.

        3. profile image0
          Rad Manposted 11 years agoin reply to this

          I'm told that's what Mother Teresa thought as well, so she dedicated her life to helping people die a painful and sometimes needless death, but chose a different ending for her own life. I think your a little mixed up as to what's good and bad and to what choices people make.

          1. Claire Evans profile image65
            Claire Evansposted 11 years agoin reply to this

            No, you just don't understand what I'm saying.

          2. soldout777 profile image60
            soldout777posted 11 years agoin reply to this

            People are not perfect, if  you try to follow them , you might fall.. follow the perfect God.

            1. chatpilot profile image68
              chatpilotposted 11 years agoin reply to this

              The Biblical god is far from perfect! Just read the Bible all the way through and it will help you see his many flaws. The fact that he is the invention of man is reflected in his actions. The Bible is riddled with anthropomorphsm where God shares many of mans own defects. God is admitedly jealous, has quite the temper, feels grief, demanding, arrogant, and a whole slew of other negative human traits.

              1. soldout777 profile image60
                soldout777posted 11 years agoin reply to this

                Wow interesting!

                Are you 100% sure that you are absolutely right?

                1. janesix profile image61
                  janesixposted 11 years agoin reply to this

                  "I am a jealous God"

                  What more do you need. Do you even read your own book? God of the Bible is an ass. Didn't you notice that?

                  1. soldout777 profile image60
                    soldout777posted 11 years agoin reply to this

                    God rocks !!!

                  2. profile image52
                    krzystoffposted 11 years agoin reply to this

                    The Abrahamic God is the product of a simple, ignorant era where very few had any education. The vast majority were then philosophically and spirtually callow.  Along with civilisation, one would expect that in the succeeding millenia God has evolved a great deal.  Thus emotive responses to these events would be unrecognisably different today.

                2. chatpilot profile image68
                  chatpilotposted 11 years agoin reply to this

                  On idol worship: You shall not bow down to them or worship them; for I, the LORD your God, am a jealous God, punishing the children for the sin of the parents to the third and fourth generation of those who hate me, Exodus 20:5
                  The Lord hates! : There are six things the LORD hates, seven that are detestable to him: Proverbs 6:16
                  "See now that I myself am he! There is no god besides me. I put to death and I bring to life, I have wounded and I will heal, and no one can deliver out of my hand." Deuteronomy 32:39

                  1. soldout777 profile image60
                    soldout777posted 11 years agoin reply to this

                    Yes He is a jealous God!
                    Does that make you uncomfortable?
                    Are you jealous that many worship Him???

      2. profile image0
        jonnycomelatelyposted 11 years agoin reply to this

        "And Man said, 'Let us make God in our own Image.'"

        1. profile image0
          Rad Manposted 11 years agoin reply to this

          "And Man said, 'Let us make EACH God to our own liking.'"

          1. johndnathan profile image87
            johndnathanposted 11 years agoin reply to this

            "And Man said 'Let each one of us make our own version of a god that is just as petty, narcissistic, and selfish as we are."'

            1. Chris Neal profile image78
              Chris Nealposted 11 years agoin reply to this

              In the beginning, God created man. And man has been trying to return the compliment ever since.

        2. soldout777 profile image60
          soldout777posted 11 years agoin reply to this

          That is the distorted version of the Bible. Read it carefully, hopefully you get some idea about what the enlightened people are experiencing. You will be shocked when you realize you have been missing out so much.

          1. profile image0
            Rad Manposted 11 years agoin reply to this

            You're right, it is a distorted view of the bible, but it's a perfect view of reality.

            1. soldout777 profile image60
              soldout777posted 11 years agoin reply to this

              Again your view of reality is distorted!

          2. chatpilot profile image68
            chatpilotposted 11 years agoin reply to this

            "That is the distorted version of the Bible. Read it carefully, hopefully you get some idea about what the enlightened people are experiencing. "

            Lmfao! enlightened? More like deluded.

            1. soldout777 profile image60
              soldout777posted 11 years agoin reply to this

              So what is the (UN) distorted version of the Bible???

              1. chatpilot profile image68
                chatpilotposted 11 years agoin reply to this

                "So what is the (UN) distorted version of the Bible???"

                Try reading about how the Bible came to be written, compiled, and canonized. Then read it in its historical contexts minus your religious bias and you just might get a glimpse of that the undistorted version of the BIble is. It was a very human work and that's why it is riddled with human errors, misinformation about astronomy and other sciences, and blatant contradictions. There is nothing divine about the Bible.

                1. soldout777 profile image60
                  soldout777posted 11 years agoin reply to this

                  I see your point!

                  I became a Christian because of what He is to me. He is a living God, He lives in me.

                  I know you will not agree with me on this, that's absolutely fine...

                  It may not work for you but  it works for me...

                  Does it offend you?

                  1. chatpilot profile image68
                    chatpilotposted 11 years agoin reply to this

                    It doesn't offend me at all. If you would have asked me about Jesus in the days when I was in the ministry I would have probably replied as you have now. In those days I thought I felt God's presence around me at all times and felt the Holy Spirit residing in me renewing my mind. I was a Pentecostal evangelist and believed in miracles. My specialty in those days was deliverance from demonic forces. People testifid and claimed to having been healed through my ministry and I gave all the glory to God for using me in such a powerfful way.

                    That's why it was so hard for me to leave. It took me six years to get over the fear of the Lord, death, and hell. I was a committed believer of the gospel but when I read the Bible in its entirety for the first time it disgusted me and showed me God in a different light.

                  2. profile image0
                    jonnycomelatelyposted 11 years agoin reply to this

                    I see your point, respect what it means to you, personally.  When such a deep personal conviction gets extrapolated to apply to everyone else that you get religions formed.   Then, of course, the argument and the rigid positioning of "faith."   
                    Then there can be no end to discord, fighting, mud-slinging and ultimate wars.
                    If that conviction you have leads you to deepen the awareness in your own life, fills your being with love and caring, then it will overflow on to others you meet.  That is the only context in which I can give credence to the "holy spirit."  It's something of quality that is shared around.

        3. Chris Neal profile image78
          Chris Nealposted 11 years agoin reply to this

          Man has certainly been trying. God has a way of reasserting Himself, though.

      3. boyatdelhi profile image53
        boyatdelhiposted 11 years agoin reply to this

        Psalms 14 says:

        The fool says in his heart, “There is no God.”
            They are corrupt, they do abominable deeds,
            there is none who does good.

        2 The Lord looks down from heaven on the children of man,
            to see if there are any who understand,[a]
            who seek after God.

        3 They have all turned aside; together they have become corrupt;
            there is none who does good,
            not even one.

        4 Have they no knowledge, all the evildoers
            who eat up my people as they eat bread
            and do not call upon the Lord?

        5 There they are in great terror,
            for God is with the generation of the righteous.
        6 You would shame the plans of the poor,
            but[b] the Lord is his refuge.

        7 Oh, that salvation for Israel would come out of Zion!
            When the Lord restores the fortunes of his people,
            let Jacob rejoice, let Israel be glad.

        1. A Thousand Words profile image68
          A Thousand Wordsposted 11 years agoin reply to this

          This is like quoting the Qu'ran to a Christian and expecting them to feel convicted. Not very effective if most of the readers don't see any validity in the book you're quoting.

          1. boyatdelhi profile image53
            boyatdelhiposted 11 years agoin reply to this

            Bible is the only document to prove the existence of God.  Without bible it is almost impossible to prove the existence of God.

            Believe in God, he will manifest in your life. Jesus is the only way for salvation.
            Jesus Loves you.  Jesus calling you.  May God bless you

            1. Disappearinghead profile image61
              Disappearingheadposted 11 years agoin reply to this

              Please show us where exactly the bible proves the existence of God? I believe in him, but it is not because of anything in the the bible.

              Why do you think your quote of Psalm 14 was meant to be universally applied to all of humanity at all times? It seems to me that the writer was commenting on the culture and situation of his contemporaries at that time. Take verses 3-5 for example. My next door neighbour is a fully signed up communist (yes they still exist) and an atheist, yet he is anything but corrupt, he does not oppress Jews (or Christians), and he is certainly not in terror because 'God is with the generation of the righteous'.

              To take passages from the bible that were written by the authors to explicitly address some issue applicable to ancient Israel and the brutal World they lived in, and try to apply them to 21st Century civilised Western societies is meaningless.

              I went under the moniker of 'fundamentalist-bible-believing-spirit-filled-Christian' for 25 years, yet in all that time I saw no evidence of the 'Believe in God, he will manifest in your life'. These are just meaningless memes. Since walking away from Church and the plastic manmade religion that calls itself Christianity today, I am happy, I am truly free. I am better off in every way: financially, practically, mentally, emotionally. You should try it.

              Yes Jesus is the only way for salvation, but its a done deal, completed, "It is finished", for all people, man is just a bystander in this. You cannot threaten people with hell for not formally accepting what is already theirs even if they do not know it.

              1. soldout777 profile image60
                soldout777posted 11 years agoin reply to this

                He is not threatening you.
                He is sharing with you the good news, for you to make the right choice.

                1. Disappearinghead profile image61
                  Disappearingheadposted 11 years agoin reply to this

                  I never said he was threatening me. But what he is sharing (if I'm not mistaken) is 'turn or burn'. That is not the gospel.

                  1. soldout777 profile image60
                    soldout777posted 11 years agoin reply to this

                    your last post goes like this
                    "You cannot threaten people with hell for not formally accepting what is already theirs even if they do not know it."
                    So I was just trying to tell you, it is not a threat, but rather warning to anyone to not go in the wrong way. But if you choose to go your own way, God is not going to stop you, because you have the free will.


                    Anyway i understand your point...


                    Well I haven't read your other posts yet, so I don't know whether you are a believer, agnostic or an atheist?

                2. profile image0
                  Deepes Mindposted 11 years agoin reply to this

                  Disappearinghead is a universalist. He has found passages in the bible that basically supports the idea that no matter what happens here, Christ's death already reconciled everyone to God and heaven is a done deal

                  1. soldout777 profile image60
                    soldout777posted 11 years agoin reply to this

                    It will be great if he could quote those passages here.

                    And BTW, do you think he is right in saying that? Just curious...

                3. profile image0
                  riddle666posted 11 years agoin reply to this

                  Good news??? Blah!

            2. profile image0
              jonnycomelatelyposted 11 years agoin reply to this

              boyatdelhi, your post is consistent with your Profile.   Obviously you are a person who has a deep faith in christianity.   Fair enough. 

              Any argument with you will never change your mind, so why would some one like myself even try to?

              I have my understandings and have not found anything yet to change them..  Maybe -- one day.

            3. A Troubled Man profile image59
              A Troubled Manposted 11 years agoin reply to this

              The Lord of Rings trilogy are the only books to prove the existence of Orks. Without the trilogy, it is almost impossible to prove the existence of Orks.

              See the silliness in both statements?

              1. A Thousand Words profile image68
                A Thousand Wordsposted 11 years agoin reply to this

                Wait, Orks aren't real? :'(

                1. A Troubled Man profile image59
                  A Troubled Manposted 11 years agoin reply to this

                  Oops, sorry, I didn't mean to let the cat out of the bag.

                2. JMcFarland profile image71
                  JMcFarlandposted 11 years agoin reply to this

                  unicorns are, though.  They're in the bible.

                  1. A Thousand Words profile image68
                    A Thousand Wordsposted 11 years agoin reply to this

                    Yea, I read that. Though I figured they meant a single-horned rhinoceros (and then I read info on how they explained it, and sure enough, single-horned rhinoceros). JM, what is that translated to directly from the Hebrew, I'm curious.

                    But what really exists without a shadow of a doubt is talking donkeys. Didn't you guys see Shrek? Apparently they sound like Eddie Murphy. Oh goodness, and the bible mentions them, too, I forgot. See! Undeniable evidence.

                3. profile image0
                  riddle666posted 11 years agoin reply to this

                  It is orc and they are indeed real, because elves are also mentioned by Tolkien. Elves are mentioned by Rowling,  The Norse people and  the Anglosaxons. How can these many authors and peoples be wrong?

              2. profile image0
                Deepes Mindposted 11 years agoin reply to this

                Actually, orks (or orcs) are not only written about in the LOTR trilogy.. There are other books (with pictures) that talk about orcs.

                1. A Troubled Man profile image59
                  A Troubled Manposted 11 years agoin reply to this

                  That may very well lend more evidence for the existence of orx. smile

                  1. profile image28
                    puellaposted 11 years agoin reply to this

                    you have made me laugh!!!

    2. Zelkiiro profile image60
      Zelkiiroposted 11 years agoin reply to this

      Time to pull out good ol' Epicurus:

      "Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able?
      Then he is not omnipotent.
      Is he able, but not willing?
      Then he is malevolent.
      Is he both able and willing.
      Then whence cometh evil?
      Is he neither able nor willing?
      Then why call him God?"

      1. profile image0
        Beth37posted 11 years agoin reply to this

        If you put a child in a room with padded walls and no objects, so that they could not get hurt, did not let them outside so nothing bad could ever happen to them, gave them an abundance of everything, but never a challenge.... you would call that a loving parent.

        We live in a fallen world. Man has separated himself from God. *You personally have either rejected or deny Him... then you question Him. You should find out personally who God actually is instead of saying He falls short of the standards you, presumably an American boy around 20, would set for Him.

        1. Zelkiiro profile image60
          Zelkiiroposted 11 years agoin reply to this

          I'm sure the nearly one billion people starving to death worldwide (through no fault of their own, mind you) are comforted by those words.

          1. profile image0
            Beth37posted 11 years agoin reply to this

            That's a childish response to what I said... and if they are starving, it is because those of us who can help, teach, or fund, do not. God has given us the means to help. What do you do personally while you sit back and blame a God you say you do not even believe in?

            1. Zelkiiro profile image60
              Zelkiiroposted 11 years agoin reply to this

              And I'm sure they're also comforted by the fact that they're just guinea pigs for God to test the faith of others.

              1. profile image0
                Beth37posted 11 years agoin reply to this

                I see you cannot respond accordingly. Ill let you go.

            2. psycheskinner profile image65
              psycheskinnerposted 11 years agoin reply to this

              If God is omnipotent and omniscient he made us specifically to be exactly as we are-- killing and torturing each other.

              If He had no idea what we would do, he is not omniscient--which begs the question as to whether he is a god?

              And even so if he allows good people to suffer just to make some kind of point, then he is not benevolent.

              This is the tension.  We are told God id a kind of being that is inconsistent with the world we live in.

              1. profile image0
                Beth37posted 11 years agoin reply to this

                He has given us a free will. A loving God would not create a world of robots, but a world of ppl who had the choice to do right and wrong... to choose Him or deny Him. Would you have it any other way?

                1. psycheskinner profile image65
                  psycheskinnerposted 11 years agoin reply to this

                  He made us the kind of creatures that torture each other when given free will.  So it is kind of like giving your baby a straight razor.

                  All I am saying is that there is tension between how God is described and the world we find ourselves in.  Drawing attention to that--however you resolve it in your own mind--is a valid thing to do.

                  1. profile image0
                    Beth37posted 11 years agoin reply to this

                    Do you kill other humans? Are you the kind of "creature" who would kill another human with a straight razor? I doubt that you are.

                    The bible explains that when sin entered the world, death entered the world.
                    We could get into the subject of satan, sin, death, eternal life etc... but it is all in Genesis, a very interesting book.

                2. profile image0
                  HowardBThinameposted 11 years agoin reply to this

                  Beth, if God is all-knowing, then He already knows the outcome of everything. Biblical prophecy, especially Revelations, indicates that everything is going according to God's plan.

                  The problem arises when an all-knowing God realizes before the creation of a specific human (let's use Hitler for example), that the human will go on to lead a horrible life and end up in the pits of Hell - and then that God goes ahead and creates that human anyway. If God knows what choices you will make - before you make them - is it REALLY free will? I don't think so.

                  And speaking of Genesis - I've always been confused by the conflict there. God said that if Adam and Eve ate the fruit - in that day - they would die. The Serpent said that if Adam and Eve were to eat of the fruit - they would not die - but instead their eyes would be open. Yet, after they snacked - God came back and said their eyes were now open and they were "like one of 'Us'", which, in itself is strange, because it indicates that there were others "like God."

                  At any rate - don't you find it strange that the Serpent was the one that actually told the truth? And, if God lied then - don't you think that sets a precedent for Him being untrustworthy?

                  I think all that "free will" stuff is just as much hocus pocus is just something that believers use to comfort themselves when their stories don't make a lick of sense.

                  1. profile image0
                    Deepes Mindposted 11 years agoin reply to this

                    Actually, according to the bible, the serpent did lie. Adam and Eve did not immediately drop dead, but by their actions they were banished from the Garden of Eden (where they would have lived forever) and sent to the world where they did eventually die

                  2. profile image0
                    Beth37posted 11 years agoin reply to this

                    They were created to live without death... because they sinned they now would die. Their physical bodies would cease to be alive. This is what is meant by "you will surely die."

                3. profile image0
                  Rad Manposted 11 years agoin reply to this

                  But if choosing to worship him does not make you one a better person then is it really good?

                  1. profile image0
                    Beth37posted 11 years agoin reply to this

                    Worshiping Him doesn't necessarily make you good, no. One would worship Him because *He is good. My best is, it couldn't hurt.

            3. PhoenixV profile image66
              PhoenixVposted 11 years agoin reply to this

              Some hate the Truth and love and embrace evil. Their conscience is seared. Because of this, God has given them over to that.

              They rationalize that their subjective opinions about, suffering, innocence and benevolence are valid but it's NOT childlike and naive but disingenuous and calculating.

              1. soldout777 profile image60
                soldout777posted 11 years agoin reply to this

                Yes phoenix that is Very true!

                1. JMcFarland profile image71
                  JMcFarlandposted 11 years agoin reply to this

                  except it's not true.  At all.

                  1. soldout777 profile image60
                    soldout777posted 11 years agoin reply to this

                    I know this is what you will say!
                    thatsokay with me !!!

            4. profile image0
              Rad Manposted 11 years agoin reply to this

              God is not being blamed for anything. The logical conclusion for the suffering is he doesn't exist as described in the bible if he exists at all. This not an attack on God, it's an attack on the concept of God.

              1. profile image0
                Beth37posted 11 years agoin reply to this

                I read his response. I would assume he could speak for himself.

              2. soldout777 profile image60
                soldout777posted 11 years agoin reply to this

                The Bible describes God as a loving God, who also will punish those who will go against His teachings.

                This world is not our permanent place, we are here for just a moment and then tomorrow we are gone....

                Whatever God does is for the good of those who trust in Him.
                He is a safe place to run to for those who trust in Him,
                but a stumbling block for those who refuse to believe in Him.

                1. profile image0
                  jonnycomelatelyposted 11 years agoin reply to this

                  Sold out to good sense, if you were to ask me..... Would you put your trust in someone who threatened to destroy you if you did not conform?

                  1. soldout777 profile image60
                    soldout777posted 11 years agoin reply to this

                    Man! you don't understand a thing here!
                    God loves me, He never threatens me....

              3. soldout777 profile image60
                soldout777posted 11 years agoin reply to this

                Well if we don't want to see any more sufferings in this world, follow God!, God of love!
                And everything will be ok.

            5. profile image0
              jonnycomelatelyposted 11 years agoin reply to this

              And Beth, it's not exactly an adult conversation when your respond to a young man's skepticism with religiosity.

              1. profile image0
                Beth37posted 11 years agoin reply to this

                The conversation is about religion.

          2. youcanwin profile image49
            youcanwinposted 11 years agoin reply to this

            How can you blame God for the starvation of people?  They or their forefathers may have done something wrong, that is why they are punished and in suffering!

            1. profile image0
              Rad Manposted 11 years agoin reply to this

              So your God must not be forgiving, loving God?

              1. JMcFarland profile image71
                JMcFarlandposted 11 years agoin reply to this

                at least he's not saying it's a mystery.

                Clearly starving children deserve what they get - you know, because they're evil - or their parents were evil.  Or their grandparents were evil.  It's a good bet that SOMEONE at SOME point was evil - and that's why the babies are starving now, of course.

                1. profile image0
                  Rad Manposted 11 years agoin reply to this

                  That seems evil to me. Perhaps the God reflects the person?

                  1. JMcFarland profile image71
                    JMcFarlandposted 11 years agoin reply to this

                    makes sense...now where have I heard that before?

                2. soldout777 profile image60
                  soldout777posted 11 years agoin reply to this

                  Love God, Love your neighbor..
                  and this world will be a better place...
                  God want us all to love one another, share with each other. It is humans who are responsible for these problems...

                  1. profile image0
                    jonnycomelatelyposted 11 years agoin reply to this

                    Sure, Soldout, that's what I say,  totally agree with you.

                    But if I fall in love with my neighbour, and go to bed with him, you will likely declare me so sinful that I cannot come into Heaven with you.  sad

        2. A Troubled Man profile image59
          A Troubled Manposted 11 years agoin reply to this

          No, that would be an obsessed parent, not a loving parent.

          [

          No, we don't. The world has not fallen.



          Or, they have the intelligence to understand gods are myths.

        3. profile image0
          jonnycomelatelyposted 11 years agoin reply to this

          Zelkiiro is approaching the subject with considerable skepticism.   That is very healthy for a 20 year old.  Why should he accept everything that is thrown at him by committed christian people without question?

          1. profile image0
            Beth37posted 11 years agoin reply to this

            I didn't say it was odd for him to question, nor did I say he should accept everything without question.

            What I did say was that it makes no sense to say someone does not exist and then to say they lack goodness. Either He is real or He is not.... if you come to the understanding that He is real, *then you could have a conversation about whether or not He is good.

            1. A Troubled Man profile image59
              A Troubled Manposted 11 years agoin reply to this

              Once again, you don't appear to understand we get that. We can talk about gods just like we can talk about Santa Claus or the Easter Bunny, which we also don't believe are real.

              1. profile image0
                Beth37posted 11 years agoin reply to this

                I don't think you had a full grasp of my post there, but that's ok. You can take a mulligan if you wish.

                1. A Troubled Man profile image59
                  A Troubled Manposted 11 years agoin reply to this

                  It's the same misunderstanding you have over and over again, no matter how many times its explained to you.

            2. profile image0
              Rad Manposted 11 years agoin reply to this

              We can look at the description of God we have in the bible and determine or judge his character.

              1. profile image0
                Beth37posted 11 years agoin reply to this

                Indeed.

                1. profile image0
                  Rad Manposted 11 years agoin reply to this

                  So we can determine his Goodness before we determine his existence.

          2. Zelkiiro profile image60
            Zelkiiroposted 11 years agoin reply to this

            ...I'm 25.

      2. Claire Evans profile image65
        Claire Evansposted 11 years agoin reply to this

        Yes, He is willing and that is why He gave us His son so that sin can be forgiven and that disables evil.  The question is are we willing to prevent evil?  Evil comes from Satan and people enable him. 

        So the point I'm trying to make is that God can prevent evil but are people, whom God has given free will, willing to prevent evil? Why put the onus all on God when people give Satan power?  Epicurus completely omits the power of Satan and who it is people that are responsible for evil in the world. 

        So what can God do? As mentioned, He can defeat sin by saving us or He can just turn us into robots that can't think for themselves so they can't be tempted to do evil.  Who wants that? You can't love a robot.  Why would God want robots?

        And never forget that God suffers the most.

    3. profile image0
      Deepes Mindposted 11 years agoin reply to this

      Based on conversations that I have had with some atheists, it doesn't appear to be as simple as them saying "God does not exist because there is so much suffering in this world). It Isn't that black and white. (NOTE- The following response is based off discussions that I have personally had with atheists).

      Here is the thing, We Christians speak of God as an omnipotent, omnipresent, omnibenevolent (I could go on, but we all get the point). Some Christians believe that God interacts physically with this world and has his hands on everything going on in the world. Now it isn't hard to see the suffering that is going on in the world, from starvation in Africa (among other places), to disease, etc. Atheists (based on conversations) have a hard time believing that an omni- everything God that interacts with this world exists that would allow such suffering to happen. With this in mind, there are three potential situations to consider that all have their own implications.

      1) Either God does not exist (which, considering lack of evidence is their likely situation

      2) God exists, but does not interact with the physical world (watches)

      3) God exists and does interact with the physical world.


      Now here the implications:

      If 1 is true, then we Christians have been believing an honest life based on a lie.

      If 2 is correct, then this takes away from God's omnipotence and/or benevolence (depending if it is a matter of him not being able to interact with the physical world or being unwilling to)

      If three is correct and he does interact with the physical world but doesn't in these cases, then he is not benevolent.


      Ultimately (again based on conversations I have had with atheists, and Zelkiiro quoted Epucurius on this one) , atheists find it difficult to believe that a God exists that would allow these things to occur. Now if it were proven sufficiently (for them) that God does exist, it would be even harder to accept and follow Him because he allows this suffering although he is supposed to be omni-everything.

      1. Jerami profile image59
        Jeramiposted 11 years agoin reply to this

        Our physical existence is only temporary!
        IF when this physically experience ends. according to religion, a part of us continues to exist.
        It seems logical to me, thais part of us must have existed before we took on this physical existence.
        I ask myself, why would we choose to enter into an existence where other people’s choices limit or expand upon our pleasures and discomforts. 
        I don’t think we would if we didn’t know that it was only temporary.
        Is having a bad experience better than having no experience at all. Some people will say yes while others will say no.
        How can we know what we would want to do if everything about us was different and we were in a different enviroment.   We just don't know what we don't know,  Ya know?

        1. Bebesiz profile image59
          Bebesizposted 11 years agoin reply to this

          Do ya believe that people continue to exist after death?

          1. Jerami profile image59
            Jeramiposted 11 years agoin reply to this

            People ??   That person ?   A portion of the entirety ?
            I believe that there is a part of this person that I think I am that does continue on for ever.
            Though I think that I am a complete whatever it is that I think that I am, I somehow believe that I am but a small piece of whatever it is "I Am" represents.     

               And my purpose in this existance is to be me.

            1. profile image0
              jonnycomelatelyposted 11 years agoin reply to this

              All each of us needs to do is try to leave the world we live in just a little bit better than when we came into it.   Simple.   Nothing complicated about it.

              Then leave humbly, saying, "I did what I could.   It's up to you folks now."

              Hanging on to this idea of "me" existing after my death is so, so pointless.  It detracts from my efforts in this moment, doing what I can for those immediately around.   It takes my mental energy.   The idea is used by others to create fear and foreboding in my mind, saying there is someone "up there" waiting to judge me.   What absolute nonsense! 

              I reject such notions, totally.

              1. profile image0
                Rad Manposted 11 years agoin reply to this

                You continue to amaze me. Sorry to have judged you, but I have and I like what I read.

              2. soldout777 profile image60
                soldout777posted 11 years agoin reply to this

                you will realize on the day you die..

                1. profile image0
                  jonnycomelatelyposted 11 years agoin reply to this

                  You may believe that... your choice.   I make my choice.   Thank you.

                  1. soldout777 profile image60
                    soldout777posted 11 years agoin reply to this

                    You are welcome

                2. Josak profile image61
                  Josakposted 11 years agoin reply to this

                  Always these weak threats. That is what Christianity has become, an ideology that increasingly attempts to intimidate or shame people into itself.

                  1. profile image0
                    Rad Manposted 11 years agoin reply to this

                    Much like the Mafia, except their threats are real.

                  2. soldout777 profile image60
                    soldout777posted 11 years agoin reply to this

                    here we are not talking only about Christians , but whoever believes God exist.That includes the muslims, hindus, ...as well.

                    Atheist are considered by them as someone who has little knowledge, but not willing to accept their weakness, so they continue to boast about it till they die. I am sure you don't want  to be one of them.

              3. soldout777 profile image60
                soldout777posted 11 years agoin reply to this

                If you are doing the right thing, He will not judge you guilty. So why are you so afraid?
                maybe you want to do something bad, that is the reason you don't like the idea of someone up, looking at you?
                B e good man, He will reward you...

                1. A Troubled Man profile image59
                  A Troubled Manposted 11 years agoin reply to this

                  But, we are not morally bankrupt, hence we do not go about doing good things in order to get rewards.

                  1. soldout777 profile image60
                    soldout777posted 11 years agoin reply to this

                    oh well and good..

                2. JMcFarland profile image71
                  JMcFarlandposted 11 years agoin reply to this

                  where on earth did you get the notion that we're afraid?  We have nothing to be afraid of.

                  1. soldout777 profile image60
                    soldout777posted 11 years agoin reply to this

                    this is a reply to the previous post ''

                3. profile image0
                  jonnycomelatelyposted 11 years agoin reply to this

                  Ooooh! Yeah, let's  think up something real bad, Man!

                  Soldout, you do talk so much nonsense..... but I love the entertainment.

                  1. profile image0
                    jonnycomelatelyposted 11 years agoin reply to this

                    You must forgive me folks for being a bit late in replying to all these novel christian posts of Soldout77.  Being on the opposite side of the world, all your discussions get to me next morning when all you people are probably in bed.   There was a huge backlog of posts when I checked in first thing this morning (Monday).  Wishing you all a good, prosperous and happy week.

                  2. soldout777 profile image60
                    soldout777posted 11 years agoin reply to this

                    Oh yeah, many of us here do that.. Not a new thing man
                    it's funny how you said,
                    "Yeah, let's  think up something real bad, Man!"

                    Let us all try to come up with something good, ..

                    I think I have been too harsh, well, I’ll try to change that, so that this discussion is constructive not destructive..

      2. Claire Evans profile image65
        Claire Evansposted 11 years agoin reply to this

        How do you suggest God eradicates all suffering from the world? As for the rest of your comment based on Epicurus, I'll repost the comment I made to Zelkiiro:

        Yes, He is willing and that is why He gave us His son so that sin can be forgiven and that disables evil.  The question is are we willing to prevent evil?  Evil comes from Satan and people enable him. 

        So the point I'm trying to make is that God can prevent evil but are people, whom God has given free will, willing to prevent evil? Why put the onus all on God when people give Satan power?  Epicurus completely omits the power of Satan and who it is people that are responsible for evil in the world. 

        So what can God do? As mentioned, He can defeat sin by saving us or He can just turn us into robots that can't think for themselves so they can't be tempted to do evil.  Who wants that? You can't love a robot.  Why would God want robots?

        And never forget that God suffers the most.

        1. profile image0
          Deepes Mindposted 11 years agoin reply to this

          Well, Claire, the first thing we have to know, figure out, and agree on is the question of whether God interacts with our physical world, first and foremost.

          If the answer is no, then your question basically does not have an answer other than to say he can't (or doesn't choose to) eradicate the suffering in the world.

          But if the answer is yes he does interact with the world, then by virtue of our Christian belief in that he is all knowing, all powerful, etc it could be reasoned that God would know how to eradicate all of the suffering in the world and do it in a manner that proves his existence to all. Now this is only in reference to the suffering (disease, starvation, etc) in the world.



          If you read my post again, my comments weren't based on Epicurius. I mentioned that Zelkiiro mentioned Epicurius as part of my comments (which were actually based on conversations that I have had with atheists). There is a difference. I was answering your question based on what I have learned from atheists, not my own personal beliefs.

          ,



          I agree that God gave his son so that sin can be forgiven, but God giving up his son does not disable nor prevent evil. It counters evil by giving those of us who try to live good lives but mess up (since we are human) at times a chance to go back and correct said mess ups. But, on the other hand, there will still be those that will do wrong regardless, and so evil is not disabled   




          To answer your first question, yes, there are people are willing to do what they can to prevent doing things that are considered evil. Things that are immoral may not necessarily be considered evil. The purpose of God sending his son is to save those who aren't evil by nature, but that make mistakes and sometimes bad decisions. Though people are willing to prevent evil, they are only to avoid and prevent evil that they themselves do. We cannot control the actions of others (though there are some that seek to do so). So the answer is really yes and no. We can prevent ourselves from doing evil things, but we cannot prevent all evil because we cannot control others.

          To answer your second question, The onus is on God, but not simply because of people giving power to Satan. The fact of the matter is in remembering who Satan was before he was cast out of heaven. Satan had power long before people started giving him power. Satan is more powerful as a being that human beings are and as such we cannot defeat him by ourselves and we believe God to be more powerful than Satan, so why would we not call on God to help us deal with something that is more powerful than we are?



          You are talking about two different things. Sin and evil. He set a contingency plan to save us from our own sins should we choose to accept it, but what about the evils and sins of others that would harm us? If someone attacks you, but I save you from them, do you become a robot? Turning us into robots is not a viable option that would stop us from doing evil. What stops us from doing evil things is the moral and ethical code that is supposed to be within us that tells us an action is wrong and our critical thinking skills to assess whether we want to follow that moral code or not.



          You see, Claire, there is more here in question than the existence of God.  Of course, we have the atheists that say there is not enough evidence to support the existence of God, the agnostics that say they don't know and may never know and the Christians that say there is God. The real question and issue here is whether or not God interacts with this physical world or not. We have some churches that teach that he does interact with this world exactly the same way he did in the OT, but because of our sinful nature he doesn't want to help us because we have to prove ourselves to him. On the other hand, we have other churches that teach that he does not interact in the physical world because Satan rules the earth. As a result of this contradictory teaching, we have people that will thank and praise God when something good happens (most of which are very mundane and do not require divine intervention), but excuse him when bad things happen by saying it's our fault or that Satan is in control here (which are the times when divine intervention is needed).

          If there is going to be any real and effective change in this world and an end to the suffering, starvation, etc in the world, as the human race, those that seek to do good and live a good life for all will have to come together and work in unity to get this done (regardless of beliefs, or lack thereof).  In Christianity, what we have to do is come together and decide what we are going to believe. If we decide that God does interact with the world like in the OT, then we need to come together on one accord and call on him to go ahead and move off the throne to stop the suffering and counter the evil that comes against his people. If, on the other hand, we realize that God does not interact with the world the same way as he did in the OT, then we need to come together, pull up and tighten our boots and do what we can do for ourselves and each other.

          But the ultimate key word in the whole situation is unity.

          1. JMcFarland profile image71
            JMcFarlandposted 11 years agoin reply to this

            this was brilliant.

            1. profile image0
              Deepes Mindposted 11 years agoin reply to this

              Thanks, JM

              1. JMcFarland profile image71
                JMcFarlandposted 11 years agoin reply to this

                i'm impressed.  Seriously.  You taught me something today.

                1. profile image0
                  Deepes Mindposted 11 years agoin reply to this

                  What did (or could possibly) I teach you?

                  1. JMcFarland profile image71
                    JMcFarlandposted 11 years agoin reply to this

                    you continually shape my new experiences with Christians, along with Mo, Melissa and others.  You show me what it's truly like to be a good person, regardless of what you do/don't believe.  You give me hope, and you teach me constantly to not give up.  thank you.  From the bottom of my heart.

            2. A Troubled Man profile image59
              A Troubled Manposted 11 years agoin reply to this

              Agreed. The Padawan is learning.

              1. profile image0
                Deepes Mindposted 11 years agoin reply to this

                I wouldn't totally praise me yet. I actually agree with a lot of the points you and other atheists raise (which is why I still engage you all) but a lot of points you guys bring up actually help to solidify my current beliefs (I know I know.. confirmation bias), but I still agree with a lot of your points because it mirrors my thinking regarding organized religion

                1. A Troubled Man profile image59
                  A Troubled Manposted 11 years agoin reply to this

                  Could I ask if those particular points that help solidify your beliefs are ones you are willing to discuss?

                  1. profile image0
                    Deepes Mindposted 11 years agoin reply to this

                    Certainly, and to be honest ( so to speak), ATM, our conversation the other day regarding that I wasn't wanting to discuss over HP had nothing at all to do with you. It really didn't. I think someone else pointed out for me that sometimes it is difficult (for me) to keep track of some things when 6 or 7 people are trying to weigh in (especially when there are those who will attack me, blast me, condemn me, etc) for my beliefs. Ironically, this has more to do more with my fellow believers than atheists. I  have stated several times that you and I have had good conversations and I am willing to discuss things with you. There are some instances that I prefer just talking about some things without others weighing in on a conversation that they do not understand because we have a unique communication style with one another

          2. Claire Evans profile image65
            Claire Evansposted 11 years agoin reply to this

            People make the mistake of taking Satan out of the equation.  It is people who cause suffering.  It is out of their own free will that they empower suffering.  What has God done about it? He sent His son to take on what empowers Satan.  If we repent we disable Satan and evil is less powerful.  If we all repented and accepted Jesus then Satan would wither up and die and evil will be no more.   So the onus is on us to eradicate evil.  If God has to kill evil people it would not make a difference.  Evil people you shall always have.  Let's take the ridiculous Noah's Ark story for example.  "God" attempted to eradicate evil but it failed miserably.  Why? Because the propensity for evil is ingrained in our minds.  It is in our DNA. 










            As I said, evil will not be fully disabled on earth.  Eventually there will come a time where people won't have free will to choose either God or Satan.  They'll be more robots and thus this is the opportunity for God to finally destroy Satan.     






            We all have the ability to commit evil.  It's amazing what one's environment can be to trigger off evil.  God came to save all.  If someone has committed unspeakable evil and they truly repent, they shall be forgiven. 



            God did not create Satan and cast Him out of heaven.  Pagan stories.  How can evil exist in heaven? Therefore, how can Satan have an evil nature? How is it possible to have a rebellion in heaven? Those who love Jesus do call on Him to deal with Satan in our own personal lives. 





            Sin is evil.  Why must I be the robot? How about the attacker being programmed to not commit evil? Sometimes people don't commit evil to keep up appearances or because it is not socially acceptable.  And some don't commit evil because it appalls them. 





            The truth is that God does interact with the world through people who are good.  But God has never interacted directly with us and that includes people such as Moses.  God does not have a physical body and does not have an audible voice. 



            Something we may deem as God being good to us may not be at all.  God being good to us is giving us our daily bread and helping us against evil.  That doesn't mean we are prevented from suffering.  It means God helps us through suffering.  So people must realize is that when bad times happen and God allows it, it means we are meant to endure us to be more spiritual refined.  After all, how can people be compassionate without ever having suffered?

            1. JMcFarland profile image71
              JMcFarlandposted 11 years agoin reply to this

              If the god of the old testament is not the same as the god of the new, can you explain to me why Jesus (if he existed) was a Jew, and referenced on multiple occasions old testament scripture and stories and characters?

              1. Claire Evans profile image65
                Claire Evansposted 11 years agoin reply to this

                Jesus had to be a descent of some original people. The prophets were from God.  Give me and example of Jesus mentioning the OT and I'll explain.

              2. jacobkuttyta profile image34
                jacobkuttytaposted 11 years agoin reply to this

                The work of our Lord Jesus was not needful on account of any necessity in the Divine Being. Jehovah would have been inconceivably glorious had the human race perished, and had no atonement been offered. Although the life-work and death-agony of the Son did reflect unparalleled lustre upon every attribute of God, yet the Most Blessed and Infinitely Happy God stood in no need of the obedience and death of his Son; it was for our sakes that the work of redemption was undertaken, and not because of any lack or want on the part of the Most High. How modestly does the Saviour here estimate his own goodness! What overwhelming reasons have we for imitating his humility! "If thou be righteous, what givest thou him? or what receiveth he of thine hand?" (Job 35:7.)

                1. Mark Knowles profile image60
                  Mark Knowlesposted 11 years agoin reply to this

                  So what you are saying is - basically your god screwed up, but it wasn't his fault,  and it then offered up the second best sacrifice for three days out of 13.8 billion years. And that was good enough to fix the screw up? Please - feel free to imitate his humility. If more of you did that, the world would be a much better place. wink

          3. profile image28
            puellaposted 11 years agoin reply to this

            naive to say the least!

    4. Josak profile image61
      Josakposted 11 years agoin reply to this

      It does not counter the idea of a god at all it does however completely counter the idea of a Judeo Christian god or indeed any benevolent god.

      God allows the innocent to suffer therefore he is not benevolent.

      Before anyone talks about "free will" that is a nonsense argument, humans firstly scientifically do not have total free will and secondly are not capable of for example imagining any color we can't see, in the same way we cold be incapable of imagining or committing murder, slavery or rape but despite our supposed creation by a benevolent god we are not. Therefore a benevolent god is impossible given suffering.

      A creator god is however still entirely possible given suffering.

      1. Claire Evans profile image65
        Claire Evansposted 11 years agoin reply to this

        So you do believe we have some free will if you say we don't have TOTAL free will?  Hasn't an atheist exercised his free will to reject God and hasn't a Christian exercised their free will to choose Jesus?

        1. Josak profile image61
          Josakposted 11 years agoin reply to this

          Do we choose to rape and murder? or rather did God design us knowing that we would rape and murder. The only free will then is that which belongs to god, accepting that we were created by an all knowing being means he KNEW EXACTLY what we would become and what we would choose to do and made us to be that way meaning we have no free will at all. Cannot possibly have free will.

          1. Raitu Disong profile image61
            Raitu Disongposted 11 years agoin reply to this

            Yes, God is all knowing.  Man is not. Man tries to understand his surroundings my mere reason and speculation. But often times our reasoning is based on our own circumstances, surroundings and community. So, in order to understand the things of God, you need to beyond your mere reasoning...

          2. Claire Evans profile image65
            Claire Evansposted 11 years agoin reply to this

            He did not design us to rape and murder.  Our DNA got corrupted by extra-terrestrials through genetic experiments.  That is pretty clear when reading ancient texts.  Why would God create imperfect creatures? Of course He would not.  The angels in heaven are perfect.

            God knows that because of our corrupted nature we could never reconcile with Him on our own.  That is why Jesus came to take on the ransom of sin.  We can with our free will choose Him to cleanse our sins and that is what disables evil.  Everyone can do something about evil in this world.

            1. profile image0
              jonnycomelatelyposted 11 years agoin reply to this

              Please excuse my skepticism, but is this christian thinking, Claire?

              1. Claire Evans profile image65
                Claire Evansposted 11 years agoin reply to this

                No, it is not and it irritates me that the Christian church does not question things.  They think the Bible is inerrant and thus anything that is not in it must be false.

                I'm a free thinker.

                1. profile image0
                  Rad Manposted 11 years agoin reply to this

                  Is That what you call it?

                  1. profile image0
                    Deepes Mindposted 11 years agoin reply to this

                    What would you call it?


                    P.S You liked the basis for my name (my tag on FB)?

            2. profile image0
              Rad Manposted 11 years agoin reply to this

              What?

              Say What?

              Why would God allow extra-terrestrials to mess with our DNA? 
              Are you certain?

              Should have just stopped ET.

              1. Claire Evans profile image65
                Claire Evansposted 11 years agoin reply to this



                Yes.  Go look it up.





                Google Sumerian texts alien genetic experiments.



                 

                Because both God and Satan have a say in earth's affairs.





                Why should I not be?

            3. profile image0
              jonnycomelatelyposted 11 years agoin reply to this

              Are we supposed to be seeing some kind of logic here?   I mean, if this "God" is god of the Universe, i.e., of this earthly planet and every other planet/galaxy/solar system, etc., yet somehow his security set-up allows an alien through the gates, how do you account for this anomaly? 
              It also beggars the imagination (even intellect) that the genetic materials of an alien could co-mingle with out human genes and influence our lovely lives of sin.   
              Maybe Valdemort is real, not just a figment of J.K. Rowling's mind.

              1. Claire Evans profile image65
                Claire Evansposted 11 years agoin reply to this

                Aliens are from Satan.  Satan and God are co-creators of the universe.  After all, isn't it made of opposites like an atom? Everything therefore is touched by evil and good accept the places where God and Satan come from, which are spiritual realms.  No evil is in heaven and no good is in hell.  The physical world is different and don't we live in it? There is a constant war between good and evil and only Jesus tips the scales for His defeated sin thus redeems us.  Whatever God does, Satan counters it.  Whatever Satan does, God counters it.  Therefore in response to our corrupted nature, God sent Jesus.

                Many fall into the mistake of underestimating Satan's power.  He is an intruder of this earth.  So why did God allow it? It is not something we can fathom.  All I know is that without suffering and the knowledge of evil, I would not love Him the way I do.  It is impossible to know God without knowing Satan.

                Why does it boggle the mine to believe in alien genetic experiments? Because it doesn't fit with your brain-washed view of things? If you were taught as a child that aliens experimented with human genes you'd believe it today.

                1. profile image0
                  jonnycomelatelyposted 11 years agoin reply to this

                  Sounds like the story of your life, Claire!

                  1. Claire Evans profile image65
                    Claire Evansposted 11 years agoin reply to this

                    I wasn't taught as a child that aliens genetically modified us.  Hardly brain-washing.  If I was a brain-washed Christian then no way would I even be entertaining the ancient aliens theory.

                2. profile image0
                  Rad Manposted 11 years agoin reply to this

                  Why? I was taught as a child that God exist, but I matured and understand that's not the case, the same would have happened with alien genetic tampering.

                  1. Claire Evans profile image65
                    Claire Evansposted 11 years agoin reply to this

                    It's because theism is mainstream and not alien genetic experiments.  We hear about God all the time so  it becomes even remotely plausible.  Alien genetic experiments, on the other hand, is definitely not accepted by the majority and unfairly enough seems to be a taboo subject.

                3. A Troubled Man profile image59
                  A Troubled Manposted 11 years agoin reply to this

                  That doesn't boggle the mind at all, what does boggle the mind are your hilariously bizarre beliefs that read more like a C rated sci-fi flick than anything else.



                  Is that what you were taught? No one else was. lol

                  1. profile image0
                    jonnycomelatelyposted 11 years agoin reply to this

                    ATM, you have a masterful way of nesting comment quotes within quotes.  I can get the single quote easily, but how do you get that nesting?   It often helps to clarify one's responses by doing it the way you do.

            4. A Troubled Man profile image59
              A Troubled Manposted 11 years agoin reply to this

              I'm so sorry, Claire, I tried and I tried and I tried, but I simply could not find a word or phrase over and above 'absurd' that could even come close to describing that remark.

              1. Claire Evans profile image65
                Claire Evansposted 11 years agoin reply to this

                What intellectual comments do you add to this forum but make jabs at others? It indicates insecurity.  Aren't you bored by now corresponding with Christians?

                1. A Troubled Man profile image59
                  A Troubled Manposted 11 years agoin reply to this

                  Are you saying your comments are intellectual? lol

                  1. Claire Evans profile image65
                    Claire Evansposted 11 years agoin reply to this

                    Don't turn this on me now.  What comments of yours are intellectual?

    5. gabgirl12 profile image60
      gabgirl12posted 11 years agoin reply to this

      If God is perfect and a God of love, then how does one perfect being create another perfect being like Lucifer and then turn around and allow Lucifer to sin near his very throne room?

      After he ejects Lucifer he decides to create a lesser world with lesser beings only to throw Lucifer down to earth?

      These are just one of the religions out there. Before Abraham believed in a deity other people believed in a deity or deities. None of them have proven themselves to exist. With the advent of the internet, the media and the ease at which we communicate bottom line, no evidence has been given that an afterlife even exists. We only dream about it because we're alive, not because it is.

      1. Claire Evans profile image65
        Claire Evansposted 11 years agoin reply to this

        That Genesis story is nonsense.  It's just another pagan story lifted from the Sumerian Text.  If God had created Lucifer I'd tell Him to go take a hike. I won't worship something like that.    As for deities, they were extra-terrestrials not supernatural gods.  For example, Elohim means gods, not God.  God is a spirit while Moses interacted with a physical being.

        Exodus 33:11

        The LORD would speak to Moses face to face, as one speaks to a friend. Then Moses would return to the camp, but his young aide Joshua son of Nun did not leave the tent

        Exodus 33:18-23

        18 Then Moses said, “Now show me your glory.”

        19 And the Lord said, “I will cause all my goodness to pass in front of you, and I will proclaim my name, the Lord, in your presence. I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion. 20 But,” he said, “you cannot see my face, for no one may see me and live.”

        21 Then the Lord said, “There is a place near me where you may stand on a rock. 22 When my glory passes by, I will put you in a cleft in the rock and cover you with my hand until I have passed by. 23 Then I will remove my hand and you will see my back; but my face must not be seen.”

        If one doesn't know Jesus then there would not be overwhelmingly convincing evidence of His existence.  Since Jesus rose from the dead Christians can be bold to say there is life after dead.

        1. gabgirl12 profile image60
          gabgirl12posted 11 years agoin reply to this

          I'm aware of that. It's not the only story. The Flood and Creation we're also taken from other texts like the Epic of Gilgamesh. So rightly named an 'epic' as opposed to be taken as literal fact preceded the Jewish Codex by 2-3000 years.

          There is only evidence if you 'believe' which puts you in a position of vulnerability to any smart insane religious leader out there. I will not be tricked. There is no evidence of Jesus existence. And Jesus is the only person to apparently have risen from the dead but taken more than 2000 years to make an appearance. How many generations have to go by until they finally grow up? Every generation terrorizes the next generation about this stuff.

          It's interesting how with the advent of the internet while its documented how many religious people there are 'standing up for their faith' and getting pats on the backs...there are no recorded miracles or anything REAL. Did they just disappear? And why it is to bad to ask for proof? Since religion is the one pushing itself compelled by 'something' within them to shove the gospel in your face? I want the truth, not more crap. If this is an offense to a Creator (which I doubt because there is no god, and mainly those who call themselves his people) who expects you to believe without question, then religion might as well be a dictatorship. I see no difference between religion and cults.

          1. Claire Evans profile image65
            Claire Evansposted 11 years agoin reply to this

            No evidence for Jesus?  There may not be evidence He is the son of God but He is an historical person.  Jesus wasn't the only one to be risen from the dead.  We have Lazarus...

            What do you mean taking more than 2000 years to make an appearance? Don't pain the whole of Christianity with the same brush.  Any form of bullying and threats from Christians goes against what Jesus taught. 

            It depends what kind of miracle you are looking for.  Miracles were needed during Paul's time for Christianity to attract the gentiles.  Christianity has established so we don't get converts that way.  Miracles come in other forms.  Life itself is a miracle. If you truly want the truth you'll find it.  Pray to God to reveal His truth and don't expect to see the lame just start walking just to believe. 

            Any god who wants worship without critical thinking when it is warranted does not deserve to be worshiped.  If I can't ask questions, and I still do today, then goodbye Christianity.  Jesus gives us all the freedom in the world to allow ourselves to grow.

            1. gabgirl12 profile image60
              gabgirl12posted 11 years agoin reply to this

              The only questions allowed by christianity are those that assume that 'god' is real. And those that respect their faith as being 'real'.  A miracle is something for good people not those your belief system considers bad. If anything your belief system relies on 'good' people gaining everything in the end, and that when bad people seem blessed, your deity is actually making it so that in anyone your belief system considers bad will fall in the end. Yes I will pin all of a Christianity, and not just Christianity, all of monotheistic religions who's deity forgot to abolish slavery, consider women as equals and who apparently after making his own creation had no clue how to handle 'sin' considering your deity's track record with Lucifer.

              If your deity is all powerful, then who are you to say if it does or doesn't deserve to be worshipped? Right there you just limited your deity and all that tells me is that you arent even convinced its real.

              A historical person who is the son of god? Does anyone really sit down and listen to themselves think when they make a proclamation of that kind?  Right now you and all those who believe in god starting with the person who wrote this entire thread are bullying and terrorizing other people and you say 'that is against' what Jesus taught when you are doing it anyway. And only until the majority correct you will you understand, but do you have capability to correct yourself and stand down and show by example what 'turn the other cheek' and 'wipe the dust off your feet' really is?

              That is not something Christians have the power to actually to say to themselves, only to other people in an attempt to encourage them to keep preaching a 'good' news' to people who don't find it so good that they end up having to be slaves to another master as opposed to believing in themselves and their own capabilities.

              1. profile image0
                jonnycomelatelyposted 11 years agoin reply to this

                +++ !

              2. Claire Evans profile image65
                Claire Evansposted 11 years agoin reply to this

                Who's to say miracles only happen to those within Christianity? Did Jesus not perform miracles and healing to the gentiles? No one "falls" just for being a non believer.   Did not Jesus treat woman as equals?  Genesis is pagan and thus God never created Satan.   How can He? Nothing evil can come from Him.   If God created Satan out of argument's sake then I would not have anything to do with Him. 



                God is not the only powerful deity.  There is Satan and Jesus dying for us to save us from Satan displays the greatest act of love.  That is why He deserves to be worshiped.  I'm more than a thousand percent sure of His existence.



                I'm the person who started this thread.  Justrefresh my memory again about the bullying part?  I just said that it is irrational to believe that God doesn't exist just because there is suffering. 

                Give me an example in the context of this thread what would be turning the other cheek and wiping the dust off one's feet?

                1. profile image0
                  Rad Manposted 11 years agoin reply to this

                  Do you think Satan has always existed as you think God has? Are those the only deities? Does believing in at least two deities make you a pagan?

                  1. Chris Neal profile image78
                    Chris Nealposted 11 years agoin reply to this

                    Paganism has traditionally been associated with polytheism, or worship of multiple (usually way more than two) 'gods.'

                    No, Satan is a created being and his power is not equal to God's.

                  2. Claire Evans profile image65
                    Claire Evansposted 11 years agoin reply to this

                    Satan and God have always existed and they are the only supreme beings.  Pagans do not only believe in two powerful beings.  They believe must more than that and they worship mother earth and all that nonsense.  So I am not pagan.

      2. profile image0
        Sooner28posted 11 years agoin reply to this

        The argument against God from perfection is a good one, I think.

        Define perfection as "without flaw" and it's hard to see how God, who is allegedly perfect, could produce our world.

        1. profile image0
          Beth37posted 11 years agoin reply to this

          He did not create our world in the shape it's in now. He created an eden... he gave man free will and man chose to sin. When sin entered the world, it became what it is now. He loves mankind and offers the opportunity for us to be with Him in Heaven one day. We learn to survive the tragedies, overcome the challenges and revel in the glorious moments. It's not perfect, but I would think most of us would prefer the opportunity to experience it than not.

    6. Philanthropy2012 profile image82
      Philanthropy2012posted 11 years agoin reply to this

      Because the monotheistic God you are no doubt referring to is by definition omnibenevolent. 

      If he is omnibenevolent and has the power to stop suffering (he is omnipotent)  then there wouldn't be suffering.

      Just an argument through definitions.

    7. Freeway Flyer profile image70
      Freeway Flyerposted 11 years agoin reply to this

      Suffering does not say anything about the existence of God. The existence of suffering, however, could be seen as evidence of the non-existence of an omnipotent, benevolent God. If God is omnipotent, then He has chosen to allow suffering. But if God is good, then why would he allow it? So it seems that he is either not omnipotent, not good, or not either one. I recently wrote a hub about this topic, but since I am not supposed to post links to my own hub here, and I don't have time to rewrite it, I'll leave it at that . . .

      1. Claire Evans profile image65
        Claire Evansposted 11 years agoin reply to this

        Suffering can be seen as the existence of Satan which most of the world has chosen to follow directly or indirectly.  Even those who know Satan slip up at times giving him leverage until we repentant.  And since God has given us free will to choose, people are actually responsible for suffering not God.  If God had to strike down all sinners it wouldn't work.  Look at the Noah story.  There will always be people who will commit egregious acts for the first time. 

        What can be done is to send His son to take on the suffering and clean us of our sins should we repent.  THAT disables evil and thus suffering decreases because those inspired by the Holy Spirit spread powerful good.  Unfortunately, there will never come a day when we know longer sin on this earth.  That is why Jesus took on our sin.  Choosing to die for one's people and going to hell on their behalf does not sound like a malevolent god.

        Both Satan and God have a say in the affairs of the world but Satan has the most say.

    8. Haunty profile image74
      Hauntyposted 11 years agoin reply to this

      Saying God doesn't exist is like saying we don't exist. God is the ground of the world of whom we are all offshoots. So in a sense we are all part of God along with everything there is.

      Suffering is identical to well-being. They are not different in nature, they are only different in digree. One can't exist without the other, because they are the same. This polarity is in the nature of everything in the universe.

    9. cbunch11 profile image70
      cbunch11posted 11 years agoin reply to this

      I am an atheist, and I would never say that god does not exist because there is suffering. I cannot fully explain why I do not believe in god. It just feels right.

      1. A Thousand Words profile image68
        A Thousand Wordsposted 11 years agoin reply to this

        No... that's never good in an argument of logic. yikes

      2. soldout777 profile image60
        soldout777posted 11 years agoin reply to this

        Cbunch11,
        I am sure you a true Atheist!!

    10. A Thousand Words profile image68
      A Thousand Wordsposted 11 years agoin reply to this

      I think that you are right in that one cannot simply come to that conclusion based on suffering alone. It is perfectly possible for there to be a form of transcendental intelligence out there that does observe, but it would be more logical because there is suffering that it is impersonal.

      After observing the Bible (OT and NT, alike), it becomes clear that that God couldn't possibly exist as it is written, because if he does, then maltheists would be more accurate in His description than anyone else. There are some clear inconsistencies for a God that supposedly "loves his children" and does not "wish for them to perish." However, most of these inconsistencies (but not all) won't apply to you because you conveniently deny that the account of God in the OT is accurate.

      1. Claire Evans profile image65
        Claire Evansposted 11 years agoin reply to this

        It's not out of convenience that most of the OT's portrayal of God is wrong.  Just look at Jesus and how He behaved. Now tell me, is it similar to how God behaved in the OT?

        1. A Thousand Words profile image68
          A Thousand Wordsposted 11 years agoin reply to this

          Did your Jesus ever say that the OT was a incorrect portrayal of his father/God? If anything, he makes number of references to certain things that were stated in the OT. If he had come to disprove the OT's accuracy, I'm certain he wouldn't have said things like:
          Matthew 5:17
          [ The Fulfillment of the Law ] “Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them.
          Luke 24:44
          He said to them, “This is what I told you while I was still with you: Everything must be fulfilled that is written about me in the Law of Moses, the Prophets and the Psalms.”

          Some of Jesus' "Woes of the Pharisees" sounds like what you can find a different prophet declaring in the book of Amos. But, one thing that Jesus' urged the crowd to do was to obey everything that the Pharisees and Sadducees taught them.
          "
          23 Then Jesus said to the crowds and to his disciples: 2 “The teachers of the law and the Pharisees sit in Moses’ seat. 3 So you must be careful to do everything they tell you... "

          Doesn't sound to me like he said anything to prove your point.

          It's possible that the disconnect actually comes from the other world views/religions that were likely influencing that area. You have to consider there'd be outside influences when there was a 400 year gap between the OT and the NT. (Did you ever think about how magi, who are supposed to be evil, who are diviners, are a part of Jesus' early life story?). I think Jesus was trying to convince people that there was a connection between him and what was "prophesied" in the OT. Also, there were mystical ideas and others that were introduced into his ideologies that were less Barbaric in nature, which make the NT seem much more pleasant in nature than the OT. That's a theory, at least.

          But the NT still has its own ugliness. Jesus has the "throw away that which I don't find useful" mentality, as is illustrated in the fig tree parable.
          Luke 13:6-9 (NIV)
          "6 Then he told this parable: “A man had a fig tree growing in his vineyard, and he went to look for fruit on it but did not find any. 7 So he said to the man who took care of the vineyard, ‘For three years now I’ve been coming to look for fruit on this fig tree and haven’t found any. Cut it down! Why should it use up the soil?’
          8 “‘Sir,’ the man replied, ‘leave it alone for one more year, and I’ll dig around it and fertilize it. 9 If it bears fruit next year, fine! If not, then cut it down.’”

          Are human "souls" as disposable as a barren tree?

          He discourages critical thought.
          "29 Then Jesus told him, “Because you have seen me, you have believed; blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed.”" That's basically the definition of being gullible.

          Honestly, though, the NT has some pleasantries. But there's no evidence that Jesus ever claimed that the OT didn't depict God the Father correctly. So how do you support your conclusions? (Besides the fact that Jesus changed the "eye for an eye" to the "turn the other cheek" thing.)

          1. Claire Evans profile image65
            Claire Evansposted 11 years agoin reply to this

            Jesus did not come to earth to make His own rules.  He came to correct the wrong perceptions the Jews had of God's law.  For example, Jesus did not say the Ten Commandments should no longer be heeded but He fulfilled the law by condensing it into two:

            Matthew 22:36-40

            New International Version (NIV)

            36 “Teacher, which is the greatest commandment in the Law?”

            37 Jesus replied: “‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.’[a] 38 This is the first and greatest commandment. 39 And the second is like it: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself 40 All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments.”

            What really did Jesus mean by fulfill?  Here are some examples:

            Matt 8:17 “that it might be fulfilled which was spoken by Isaiah the prophet, saying: “He Himself took our infirmities and bore our sicknesses.”

            Matt 21:4-5 “All this was done that it might be fulfilled which was spoken by the prophet, saying: “Tell the daughter of Zion, ‘Behold, your King is coming to you, lowly, and sitting on a donkey, a colt, the foal of a donkey.’“

            Matt 26:56 “But all this was done that the Scriptures of the prophets might be fulfilled.”

            It's pretty obvious that Jesus didn't mean such Jewish laws like not eating swine as being what He had to fulfill.




            But you must finish the verse:

            23 Then Jesus said to the crowds and to his disciples: 2 “The teachers of the law and the Pharisees sit in Moses’ seat. 3 So you must be careful to do everything they tell you. But do not do what they do, for they do not practice what they preach. 

            The Pharisees knew the right things to say in public and how they adhered to religious practices but they were hypocrites.  So Jesus is not telling the people to behave like them only to adhere to the correct religious practices.  Think of some pastors today.  They read from the Bible quoting Jesus yet privately they lead sinful lives. 



            That's a very interesting point about the magi.  They were occultists but visited Jesus under false pretenses; obviously arriving on Herod's behalf.  I think they couldn't have been so naive to think Herod actually wanted to worship Jesus considering what a monster he was. 

            Who's to say that the magi didn't felt the presence of God once they saw Jesus?  Paul converted on the spot once He was visited by Jesus.

            And, yes, Jesus did illustrate the connection between Him and what was prophesied about Him in the OT.



            Are human "souls" as disposable as a barren tree?

            With every action Jesus did there was always a meaning behind it. 

            Here's an excellent analysis:

            "We plant apple trees because we want apples, peach trees because we want peaches, orange trees because we want oranges, and fig trees because we want figs. We might as well ask what good is an apple tree that doesn't produce apples? You might as well cut it down. Or curse it, as Jesus did the fig tree (Matthew 21:18-19).

            How did Jesus know the fig tree was barren? Because the leaves and the fruit typically appear at about the same time. To see a fig tree covered with leaves but with no fruit meant that it was barren.

            Three insights will help us understand this story. First, in the Old Testament the fig tree often stood as a symbol for the nation of Israel (Jeremiah 8:13; Hosea 9:10). Second, we also need to observe that the cursing of the fig tree occurs on Monday of Jesus's Passion Week, four days before his crucifixion. Third, this story is placed next to the story of Jesus cleansing the temple in Jerusalem (Matthew 21:12-17). The money lenders had turned the Lord's house into a den of thieves. They were profiteers who exchanged foreign currency and also sold the animals that worshipers from distant towns would buy to sacrifice before the Lord. By shrewd marketing they could charge exorbitant rates and make a killing off the pilgrims who came to worship. The whole scene angered our Lord because he knew that the temple should be a house of prayer for all nations.

            Cursing the fig tree was Jesus's way of saying that the whole nation had become spiritually barren before the Lord. They had the form of religion but not the reality. They knew the right words to say, but their hearts were far from God."


            28“Now learn this lesson from the fig tree: As soon as its twigs get tender and its leaves come out, you know that summer is near. 29Even so, when you see these things happening, you know that it is near, right at the door. 30I tell you the truth, this generatione will certainly not pass away until all these things have happened. 31Heaven and earth will pass away, but my words will never pass away.

            So you should see from the above verse that Jesus was using a fig tree as a parable.




            It doesn't mean He expected people to believe in His divinity without evidence.  He doesn't want people to believe in Him because they were taught as children to believe in Him when they actually have no idea if He truly is the son of God or not.   A person who loves God and knows Jesus is the son of God may come a situation where they cannot see a way out of a problem or what to do next in their lives.  They then turn to God and BELIEVE He will show them the way.  I know Jesus is the son of God but I don't always know what to do in life.  So I give it over to God even though I have not seen what to do.


    11. profile image0
      TMDHemsley17posted 11 years agoin reply to this

      It's fallacious to argue that the existence of suffering negates the existence of God. Anyone who has actually thought out an argument would not say that. However, the problem of suffering is an argument that questions, not disproves, the existence of a benevolent god. If you were to say something to the effect of "My God is not a benevolent being but a harsh and destructive creator" then the argument cannot be used against you. But when claiming that God is a kind and loving being who would not harm a fly the argument has credibility.

      1. psycheskinner profile image65
        psycheskinnerposted 11 years agoin reply to this

        It is only a fallacy if we are speaking of an indifferent or cruel God--which is rarely the case.

        1. profile image0
          TMDHemsley17posted 11 years agoin reply to this

          Yes that's what I was saying.

        2. A Thousand Words profile image68
          A Thousand Wordsposted 11 years agoin reply to this

          Ever heard of maltheism?

      2. Claire Evans profile image65
        Claire Evansposted 11 years agoin reply to this

        Why did God allow Jesus to suffer and furthermore why does He allow Himself to suffer?

        1. profile image0
          riddle666posted 11 years agoin reply to this

          Sadomasochism??

          1. Claire Evans profile image65
            Claire Evansposted 11 years agoin reply to this

            No.

            The combination of sadism and masochism, in particular the deriving of pleasure, especially sexual gratification, from inflicting or submitting to physical or emotional abuse.

            No sexual gratification involved.

            God thought the worst suffering He can endure through Jesus was preferable to losing us to Satan.  He'd rather take on the penalty of sin which is hell.  This displays an extreme act of love for humanity.

            1. profile image0
              riddle666posted 11 years agoin reply to this

              Sadomasochism is the giving and/or receiving of pleasure—often sexual —from acts involving the infliction or reception of pain or humiliation.
              Often does not mean always!!
              "God thought the worst suffering He can endure through Jesus was preferable to losing us to Satan."
              Is your god impotent and incapable to lose to satan?? So if you are not sure that god can win, why take his side?

              1. Claire Evans profile image65
                Claire Evansposted 11 years agoin reply to this

                God has won.  Jesus defeated Satan.  Evil cannot triumph over good.  So, yes, I'm very sure God won.

                1. profile image0
                  riddle666posted 11 years agoin reply to this

                  When?
                  When? The gospel only say about jesus being in a coma for two days not about a fight.
                  How can one concept triumph over another?  Are evil and good two animals?
                  If god has already won why are you worried?

        2. profile image0
          TMDHemsley17posted 11 years agoin reply to this

          Could you kindly elaborate? I'm not sure what point you're making. Thank you.

          1. Claire Evans profile image65
            Claire Evansposted 11 years agoin reply to this

            If God is not benevolent for allowing suffering then why does He allow Himself to suffer? It's because the worst suffering God could ever go through is preferable to losing us to Satan.

    12. Hidan Leif profile image61
      Hidan Leifposted 11 years agoin reply to this

      The answer to both sides of this question is far more simple than either side seems to realize. Freewill. God grants man freewill, otherwise as one or more have already pointed out, you could be "forced to worship". This idea of forced worship negates the entire premise of worship. Worship is freely given, just like true sacrifice is freely given or it is not a sacrifice it is a tribute forced onto the giver by some omnipotent power. Satan can not be destroyed out right for the same reason. The energy given of people's freewill in their unintentional, I hope, service makes it impossible for God to utterly destroy Satan as long as people use their free will to do acts and thoughts that edify that. I hope this has been helpful.

      1. Claire Evans profile image65
        Claire Evansposted 11 years agoin reply to this

        There will come a time when people won't have free will.  They will be forced to worship Satan and thus Jesus can come to destroy him.

        1. janesix profile image61
          janesixposted 11 years agoin reply to this

          why would someone want to force people to worship satan?

          1. Claire Evans profile image65
            Claire Evansposted 11 years agoin reply to this

            To share in his power.  They believe that with the appearance of the Anti-Chris, which they would want the public to be forced to worship, they will share in this reign.

            1. Zelkiiro profile image60
              Zelkiiroposted 11 years agoin reply to this

              If they already know about the Antichrist, then they would also already know that he will be defeated in a hilariously unfair curbstomp battle.

              And they would also already know that Revelation is a work of fiction.

              1. Claire Evans profile image65
                Claire Evansposted 11 years agoin reply to this

                They don't believe the "he will be defeated" part.  They don't believe the devil is as Christians know him. 

                They very much believe in the mark of the beast system. 

                Watch this:

                http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nz1Au48IySI

        2. wilderness profile image75
          wildernessposted 11 years agoin reply to this

          Wait.  A requirement for Jesus to be able to destroy Satan is that he forces people to worship him?  Jesus doesn't have the ability until then?

          What happened to omnipotence?

          1. profile image0
            Deepes Mindposted 11 years agoin reply to this

            Omnipotence refers to God, not Jesus

            1. wilderness profile image75
              wildernessposted 11 years agoin reply to this

              Sorry - my teaching as a youngster was that God, Jesus and the holy ghost were all one, yet separate in some unexplainable manner.

              1. profile image0
                Deepes Mindposted 11 years agoin reply to this

                I was as well, but that is not the case. The latter two have an essence of God, but are not God.

                1. profile image0
                  jonnycomelatelyposted 11 years agoin reply to this

                  That word "essence" is a beautiful word, Deepes!   For me it conjures up the mystery.

                  As an example:   In April I met up with old pals whom I had not seen for 50 years.   You would think that all the different wrinkles, the change of paunch, the colour of hair (if there's any left!) and the harsh realities of life would have made them un-recognisable. 

                  Yet, there was still the essence of their personalities shining through.   Maybe it was a pattern of facial features, the combination of eyes, nose shape, or something which brought recognition.  But I prefer to think of it as a unique spirit emanating from their deeper person.  And here's me an atheist!....

                  1. youcanwin profile image49
                    youcanwinposted 11 years agoin reply to this

                    I would like to share an excerpt from the book of John Bunyan's "Vision of Heaven and Hell"
                    I recommend you to read it carefully.  This book is free to download from http://spiritlessons.com/

                    Chapter 10: An Atheist in Hell
                    We had not gone much farther before I saw a vast number of tormenting demons. They were continually lashing a large company of wretched souls with knotted whips of ever burning steel. The tormented were roaring out with such loud cries that I thought it might have melted even cruelty itself into some pity. This made me say to one of the tormentors, “Oh, stop your whipping, and do not use such cruelty on those who are your fellow creatures, and whom you probably helped lead to all this misery.”
                    “No,” answered the tormentor very smoothly. “Though we are bad enough, no devil was as bad as them, nor were we guilty of such crimes as they were. We all know there is a God, although we hate Him; but these souls would never admit (until they came here) that there was such a Being.”
                    “Then these,” I said, “were atheists. They are wretched men, and tried to ruin me had not eternal grace prevented it.”
                    I had no sooner spoken, but one of the tormented wretches cried out mournfully , “Surely I know that voice. It must be John.”
                    I was amazed to hear my name mentioned; and therefore I answered, “Yes, I am John; but who are you?”
                    To this he replied, “I once knew you well upon the earth, and had almost persuaded you to be of my opinion. I am the author of that celebrated book entitled ‘Leviathan.’”
                    “What! The great Hobbs?” said I. “Are you come here?”
                    “Alas,” replied he, “I am that unhappy man indeed. But I am so far from being great that I am one of the most wretched persons in all these dirty territories. For now I know there is a God. But oh! I wish there were not, for I am sure He will have no mercy on me. Nor is there any reason that He should. I do confess I was His foe on earth, and now He is mine in hell. It was that proud confidence I had in my own wisdom that has so betrayed me.”
                    “Your case is miserable, and yet you admit that you suffer justly. For how industrious were you to persuade others and try to bring them to the same damnation. No one can know this better than I, as I was almost taken in your snare to perish forever.”
                    “It is that,” said he, “that stings me to the heart, to think how many will perish by my influence. I was afraid when I first heard your voice that you had also been cast into hell. Not that I wish any person happy, for it is my torment to think that anyone is happy while I am so miserable. But I did not want you to be cast into hell, because every soul that is brought here through my deceptions, increases my pains in hell.”

                    “But tell me,” I said, “for I want to know the truth. Did you indeed believe there was no God when you lived upon earth?
                    “At first I believed there was a God,” he answered, “but as I turned to sins which would lead me to His judgment, I hoped there was no God. For it is impossible to think there is a just God, and not also remember that He will punish those who disobey Him. But as I continued in my sins, and found that justice did not swiftly come, I then began to hope there was no God. From those hopes I began to frame ideas in my own mind that could justify what I hoped. My ideas framed a new system of the world’s origin which excluded from it the existence of God. At last I found myself so fond of these new theories that I decided to believe them and convince others that they were true. But before this,

                    I did find several checks in my own conscience. I felt that I could be wrong, but I ignored these warnings. Now I find that those checking thoughts that might have helped me then, are here the things that most of all torment me. I must confess that the love of sin hardened my heart against my Maker, and made me hate Him first, and then deny His being. Sin, that I so proudly embraced, has been the cursed cause of all this woe; it is the serpent that has stung my soul to death. For now I find, in spite of my vain philosophy, there is a God. I have also found that God will not be mocked, although it was my daily practice in the world to mock at heaven and all that is sacred, for this was the means that I found very successful to spread abroad my cursed ideas. For anyone that I could get to ridicule the truths of God, I looked upon as becoming one of my disciples. But now these thoughts are more tormenting to me than the sufferings I endure from these whips of burning steel.”

          2. Claire Evans profile image65
            Claire Evansposted 11 years agoin reply to this

            What happened to free will? It's not a case of not being able to.  It is about the case of the right time.  Jesus had to come to earth at the right time and He shall return at the right time again, too.

    13. Peggasuse profile image88
      Peggasuseposted 11 years agoin reply to this

      I guess people blame God when bad things happen because they forget about the concept of Free Will.  We all have that and I don't believe that God interferes because he/she/it is the one who made that rule.

      Personally, I believe that our lives here are simply like a school where we learn how best to behave so that everything turns out right.  We have experiences; we learn lessons from our choices, good or bad, and we progress, a little at a time, as we grow. 

      So, if we don't behave well and things screw up and cause issues, WE are the ones who caused them.  God had nothing to do with it.    I think it's about time people took responsibility for their own stupid mistakes.  I'm not being condescending here because I've made a lot of stupid mistakes myself.

      But there comes a point in one's life when one must realize the truth and take responsibility for one's actions.  Everything that happens to us, weather good or bad, is a result of our own choices.  If we made the right choice, then we get to do" the dance of joy."

      If we made the wrong choice, bad things are going to happen and then some people will blame God for those things happening and then will blame God again for not helping them out of it.  The truth is, if you got yourself into it, then it's your responsibility to get yourself out. 

      Those are the rules.  Maybe if more people realized that, they wouldn't make so many mistakes.....

      1. profile image0
        Rad Manposted 11 years agoin reply to this

        People who don't believe in God don't blame God for anything. You can't be angry with someone who doesn't exist.

        There are some inherent flaws in your argument, as we are not always responsible for the bad things that happen in our lives. Sometimes crap happens and good people get sick and sometimes other peoples mistakes affect other, like the case of a drunk drivers who runs over people simply going for a walk or some nut who thinks he's the Joker opens up and kills a bunch of people at the movie theatre.

      2. Claire Evans profile image65
        Claire Evansposted 11 years agoin reply to this

        I agree, thank you.

      3. JPB0756 profile image59
        JPB0756posted 11 years agoin reply to this

        Superb realization.  Nice.

        1. profile image0
          Rad Manposted 11 years agoin reply to this

          Superb rationalization. Nice.

    14. HattieMattieMae profile image59
      HattieMattieMaeposted 11 years agoin reply to this

      hmm...well if people say there is no God, they can't blame all the suffering on God. If there was never any God, there would still be suffering and than of course maybe they'd blame it on science why there is pain and suffering. Or who knows perhaps everyone but atheists are to blame for suffering. Of course because you believe in God, or a higher power that is the wrong choice and we are to blame for all the suffering because we're rebels and don't go along with there is no God. We don't believe God causes suffering. I personally believe the human condition is blamed for people's suffering passing down actions, bad behavior patterns, beliefs, prejudices, discrimination, and hatred because they can't accept differences in their societies, cultures, and religions. You're different umm. they say your at fault for causing suffering because you're interfering  in their belief system. Doesn't matter whether you're religous, or atheist you have a beleif system, and if you're wrong that makes the other person right, and how dare anyone be right or wrong. We just like being right at all costs even if it harms another person. Religion is just an excuse we use to say we don't like someone that is different than us, and of course on the opposite side of the spectrum we can say we don't like you because your atheist and different than us. It doesn't matter if we're black or white, red, yellow, green, smart, dumb, skinny, or fat, we will not accept differences and truly I can not blame it on religion, or atheism, or even God. The human animal decides I don't like you for what ever reason because your different so lets do everything in our power to harm someone else.

  2. psycheskinner profile image65
    psycheskinnerposted 11 years ago

    I don't think the argument is that simplistic.  But it is hard to understand why an omnipotent, omniscient, benevolent God allows good people to suffer.  If he "just likes to watch" rape and torture that is a tad creepy.

    1. profile image0
      Beth37posted 11 years agoin reply to this

      http://strongtowerbiblechurch.com/media.php?pageID=38

      Date 4/21

      "A biblical response to tragedy."

      1. gabgirl12 profile image60
        gabgirl12posted 11 years agoin reply to this

        How about a human one? You know, where people just come together and work things out without the need to glorify a deity or trick you into thinking you're having a spiritual experience in a human body?

        As opposed to leaving the earth via 'death', you'd think we'd put all this childishness behind us and build space ships to take us to other worlds. If we can fly, we can take it to another level. Religion is what's keeping us from exploration because with every discovery we make its being proven that its not real or necessary.

        Just the concept of visiting other worlds, of pushing beyond our atmosphere (besides legalizing gay marriage) scares religion to bits.  They are terrified of losing their 'dependence' on God.

        1. profile image0
          Beth37posted 11 years agoin reply to this

          If that's your line of reasoning, I spose there isn't much room for discussion then.

        2. Philanthropy2012 profile image82
          Philanthropy2012posted 11 years agoin reply to this

          +1

    2. Claire Evans profile image65
      Claire Evansposted 11 years agoin reply to this

      Why allow Jesus to suffer?  God could stop suffering but our free will will have to be forfeited because it is the evil committed with free will that empowers Satan and causes suffering.  Then if our free will was forfeited people would say He was a dictator.

      Satan likes to watch people being raped and tortured.

      1. soldout777 profile image60
        soldout777posted 11 years agoin reply to this

        They won't be able to understand the things of God. It is too high for them to even fathom.

        The best thing to do is to pray for them, "father they don't know what they do, open their eyes to see the truth."

        1. profile image0
          Deepes Mindposted 11 years agoin reply to this

          This statement has always been interesting to me. Some Christians (I am guilty of this too sometimes) will state that there is no way we can truly know the mind of God, then turn around at times and tell others what God is thinking and feeling as it relates to others sins and deeds. Let me ask you this, Soldout, why do you think it is that we will say that we cannot understand God then speak for God?

          1. profile image0
            Rad Manposted 11 years agoin reply to this

            Interesting how that works isn't it? They have all the answers, but when confronted with a conundrum they switch to "God's to complex for us to understand".

            1. profile image0
              Deepes Mindposted 11 years agoin reply to this

              I've done it

              1. profile image0
                Rad Manposted 11 years agoin reply to this

                Well of course. It's what WE've been taught. I think it's important to ask the questions anyway as I think most of us are smart enough to know right from wrong.

                1. profile image0
                  Deepes Mindposted 11 years agoin reply to this

                  I understand

            2. profile image0
              Mklow1posted 11 years agoin reply to this

              I have always approached religions as a complex issue, which is why I consider myself a student and church is my school. I consider being a Christian like a work in progress, not a finished product. Therefore, I don't have the answers, only more questions.
              To me, life and religion is a journey, not a destination

              1. profile image0
                Rad Manposted 11 years agoin reply to this

                Then why have you never said (or at least I don't remember) I don't know? "I don't know" is the honest answer, as "the lord works in mysterious ways" or "God is too complex for us to understand" is dishonest at best.

                1. profile image0
                  Mklow1posted 11 years agoin reply to this

                  I have given my opinion, but if someone were to ask me whether something was concrete or not and I didn't know then I would say I don't know. That situation hasn't arisen yet.
                  As for people saying "God works in mysterious ways" and "God is too complex to understand", in my opinion is not dishonest. If it is mysterious to that person, then it is true. If it is too complex for them to understand, then it is. There is no dishonesty in that.

                  1. profile image0
                    Rad Manposted 11 years agoin reply to this

                    So, while you claim you would say "I don't know" you state you never have had to and every time you don't understand you can claim "God is beyond our comprehension" when you only know your own comprehension? Love it.

                2. profile image0
                  Deepes Mindposted 11 years agoin reply to this

                  Actually, Those two examples are saying the same as "I don't know" and thus are equally as honest when they stand alone. It only becomes dishonest when preceded by or followed by an assessment as to what God wants or will do

                  1. profile image0
                    Rad Manposted 11 years agoin reply to this

                    I don't think it's an honest answer because one is claiming they know that God works in mysterious ways when really they don't know. The mysterious ways answer always comes up when we see a conflict that makes no sense. The honest thing would be to do a Chris does and say "I'll have to think about that".

                3. Chris Neal profile image78
                  Chris Nealposted 11 years agoin reply to this

                  Why are they dishonest? If they are truthful answers, why are they dishonest? If you don't understand something but know that God is at work in it then those are not dishonest answers.

                  1. profile image0
                    Deepes Mindposted 11 years agoin reply to this

                    i think the dishonesty isn't in knowing that God is at work. The dishonesty is in speaking with certainty as to exactly how God is working then using these statements when asked to elaborate or back up a claim further. Basically, when we put ourselves in a position where we are speaking FOR God rather than ABOUT God and what he says or does..

                  2. profile image0
                    Rad Manposted 11 years agoin reply to this

                    Because if as you say, you don't understand something, but (know) that God is at work, you can't (know) God is at work if you don't understand something. How can we admit to not understanding and knowing at the same time. It's just what WE were taught to say when we don't understand something. If we are honest we can't admit to not understanding and yet knowing.

          2. soldout777 profile image60
            soldout777posted 11 years agoin reply to this

            Deepes,
            Yes we don't know everything about God!
            Yet He has made himself known to us in the Bible. The Bible said, "now we know in part, but when we see Him, we'll know all the mysteries."

            You asked, ..why do you think it is that we will say that we cannot understand God then speak for God?

            I speak about  the things i read in the Bible. And the Bible is full of lessons for our life. And the things we need to know, He made it known to us in His words.

            1. janesix profile image61
              janesixposted 11 years agoin reply to this

              I know lots of things about God

              1. soldout777 profile image60
                soldout777posted 11 years agoin reply to this

                I know you do!
                You are blessed Jane:)

                1. janesix profile image61
                  janesixposted 11 years agoin reply to this

                  So are YOU

                  1. soldout777 profile image60
                    soldout777posted 11 years agoin reply to this

                    Thanks:)
                    nice to meet you here. God bless.

              2. profile image0
                Deepes Mindposted 11 years agoin reply to this

                You are awesome, Jane... As is Soldout77

            2. profile image0
              Deepes Mindposted 11 years agoin reply to this

              And I agree, with this. Why do you think it is that some look to pass judgment on others? This is not about you. Just a general question

              1. soldout777 profile image60
                soldout777posted 11 years agoin reply to this

                Alright...
                Thanks for  clarifying..

    3. profile image0
      Mklow1posted 11 years agoin reply to this

      If bad things happening proves God doesn't exist, then would good things happening means he does exist? Wouldn't that reasoning negate each reason out?

      1. psycheskinner profile image65
        psycheskinnerposted 11 years agoin reply to this

        That would be a bit like saying you have a great husband if he punches you in the face but also buys you flowers.

        1. profile image0
          Mklow1posted 11 years agoin reply to this

          Depends on what type of flowers

        2. profile image0
          Mklow1posted 11 years agoin reply to this

          and we are not talking about God performing these bad deeds, so it is like you are comparing apples and oranges.

          1. psycheskinner profile image65
            psycheskinnerposted 11 years agoin reply to this

            If you go to where this conversation started, if God is omnipotent--bad things only happen because he made the system so that it creates badness, and he allows it to do so.

            Ergo either God is not omnipotent, or God is not good (or it is good to create evil beings and let them run around being evil and causing suffering even though you could stop them).

            1. profile image0
              Mklow1posted 11 years agoin reply to this

              So lets use your logic on a smaller level: if someone starts a company and becomes CEO and it becomes a billions dollar firm that employs hundreds of thousands of people and contributes to the global society by giving a quality of life that they otherwise would not have. But of these thousands of employees some of them steal or make bad deals or get convicted of murder or abuses their spouse, but overall the company does good and makes money, is he a bad CEO?

              I would say that the world God has created and blessed us with is good, but the bad things that happen are done by free thinking individuals that choose to do wrong.

              1. profile image0
                Rad Manposted 11 years agoin reply to this

                Free thinking individuals? Are you not Free to Think? Right from Wrong?

                1. profile image0
                  Mklow1posted 11 years agoin reply to this

                  Yes, and I choose to do right.

                  1. profile image0
                    Rad Manposted 11 years agoin reply to this

                    As have I. Without the fear of God.

            2. Joel Kall profile image60
              Joel Kallposted 9 years agoin reply to this

              "Gill's Exposition of the Entire Bible

              I form the light, and create darkness,.... Natural light, or that light which was produced at the first creation, and of which the sun is the fountain and source; or day which is light, and night which is darkness, the constant revolutions of which were formed, appointed, and are continued by the Lord, Genesis 1:3, moral light, or the light of nature, the rational understanding in man; spiritual light, or the light of grace, by which things spiritual and supernatural are known; the light of joy and comfort from Christ, the sun of righteousness; and the light of eternal glory and happiness: this is all from God, of his producing and giving; and so darkness is his creature; that natural darkness which was upon the face of the earth at the beginning; what arises from the absence of the sun, or is occasioned by the eclipses of it, or very black clouds; or any extraordinary darkness, such as was in Egypt; or deprivation of sight, blindness in men; and, in a figurative sense, ignorance and darkness that follow upon sin; judicial blindness, God gives men up and leaves them to; temporal afflictions and distresses, and everlasting punishment, which is blackness of darkness:

              I make peace, and create evil; peace between God and men is made by Christ, who is God over all; spiritual peace of conscience comes from God, through Christ, by the Spirit; eternal glory and happiness is of God, which saints enter into at death; peace among the saints themselves here, and with the men of the world; peace in churches, and in the world, God is the author of, even of all prosperity of every kind, which this word includes: "evil" is also from him; not the evil of sin; this is not to be found among the creatures God made; this is of men, though suffered by the Lord, and overruled by him for good: but the evil of punishment for sin, God's sore judgments, famine, pestilence, evil beasts, and the sword, or war, which latter may more especially be intended, as it is opposed to peace; this usually is the effect of sin; may be sometimes lawfully engaged in; whether on a good or bad foundation is permitted by God; moreover, all afflictions, adversities, and calamities, come under this name, and are of God; see Job 2:10,

              I the Lord do all these things; and therefore must be the true God, and the one and only one. Kimchi, from Saadiah Gaon, observes, that this is said against those that assert two gods, the one good, and the other evil; whereas the Lord is the Maker of good and evil, and therefore must be above all; and it is worthy of observation, that the Persian Magi, before Zoroastres (m), held two first causes, the one light, or the good god, the author of all good; and the other darkness, or the evil god, the author of all evil; the one they called Oromazes, the other Arimanius; and, as Dr. Prideaux (n) observes,

              "these words are directed to Cyrus king of Persia, and must be understood as spoken in reference to the Persian sect of the Magians; who then held light and darkness, or good and evil, to be the supreme Beings, without acknowledging the great God as superior to both;''

              and which these words show; for Zoroastres, who reformed them in this first principle of their religion, was after Isaiah's time.

              (m) Vid. Pocock. Specimen Arab. Hist. p. 147, 148. (n) Connexion, part 1. p. 215. "
              http://biblehub.com/isaiah/45-7.htm

              More explaination of that verse Isaiah 45:7:
              Also all life created has a free will (exceptions maybe of viruses, bacterias and things of that nature etc, but you get my point), has free will as a gift, as God did not want to have robots and by that free will some choose evil, and in that regard God is creator of all things, but its not Gods fault what anyone, example humans created in Gods image choose by their free will to do, its completely their own free will, as someone sows they shall also reap, either good or bad, God is not mocked Galatians 6:7.

              http://bibleisgodswordforalltime.blogsp … verse.html

              1. Joel Kall profile image60
                Joel Kallposted 9 years agoin reply to this

                More deep new study about this here also:
                http://securebackupbible.blogspot.se/20 … -your.html

      2. Claire Evans profile image65
        Claire Evansposted 11 years agoin reply to this

        No, it would mean both God and Satan exist.

        1. profile image0
          riddle666posted 11 years agoin reply to this

          What is "exist"? Just because you think about a being doesn't mean that being "exist".
          What is "god"?
          What is "satan"?
          How did they "arise"?

          1. Claire Evans profile image65
            Claire Evansposted 11 years agoin reply to this

            God and Satan are powerful omniscience beings; one being the epitome of evil and the other the epitome of good. 

            I have no idea where they came from.

            1. profile image0
              riddle666posted 11 years agoin reply to this

              Good and evil are relative so what does this epitome of good and bad means? Suppose Satan helped the Americans he was doing good to Saddam and vice versa{same with god too}. If they are just two beings they will also die(omniscience or not) and has to evolve from lower animals.[and though an interesting concept, omniscience is nonsense, a good educated guess is not omniscience].

              1. profile image0
                christiananrkistposted 11 years agoin reply to this

                if good and evil are relative you wouldn't mind if your family is held captive and raped. after all this will just ensure our species continues.

                1. profile image0
                  riddle666posted 11 years agoin reply to this

                  And you will be happy if this happened to you because it's god's will?

                  1. profile image0
                    christiananrkistposted 11 years agoin reply to this

                    im not the one that thinks good and evil are relative. i believe in objective morality. so no, i wouldnt be happy. and that would never be God's will.

              2. Claire Evans profile image65
                Claire Evansposted 11 years agoin reply to this

                Trust me, when it comes to God and Satan there is no relativity.  Humans living in an imperfect world and being human can commit things that are relative.  For example, people know that killing is wrong but a woman may have an abortion if it threatens her life.  So even though killing is wrong that woman having an abortion has not committed a sin. 

                Are you suggesting that America treated Saddam as an ally? Benefiting from something is not the same thing as good happening to a person. 

                How can two spirits die if they have no bodies?

                1. profile image0
                  riddle666posted 11 years agoin reply to this

                  Only if you say logical things, otherwise why should I trust you? What give you a better idea about these than me? There is no inherent good or bad as they are human constructs.
                   
                  ????
                  "people know that killing is wrong"
                  Only some of the modern human 'know' killing is wrong. Soldiers, especially of the yore know killing enemies is good. The sentenilese will kill you the moment you step on their territory even now.

                   
                  How can spirit exist if they have no bodies?

          2. profile image0
            christiananrkistposted 11 years agoin reply to this

            they are both spiritual beings. God is eternal and just always was. Satan is and angel (a type of spiritual being although fallen) and was created by God , just like everyone else and everything else was created.

            1. profile image0
              riddle666posted 11 years agoin reply to this

              How a spiritual being, a concept,  be eternal?


              God has no idea how to destroy a thing he created?

              1. profile image0
                christiananrkistposted 11 years agoin reply to this

                a spiritual being is not a concept. its real. i also answered that question why he hasnt destroyed satan.

                1. profile image0
                  riddle666posted 11 years agoin reply to this

                  Spirit is a concept, being is not, but beings cannot be eternal.
                  So god is impotent and incapable of destroying satan?

                2. profile image0
                  jonnycomelatelyposted 11 years agoin reply to this

                  I disagree.  You cannot put any "real" parameters of description around a spiritual being.  It's a construct of your mind, an imaginary "thing." No two persons can have an absolute understanding of what they see in their minds as a "spiritual being."

                  Hold and state your religious beliefs for your self.  Then listen to and respect the opinions of others, as equal to your own.   That is what I do for your beliefs.

                  1. profile image0
                    christiananrkistposted 11 years agoin reply to this

                    I respect other beliefs. I'm simply stating my views. If my views on conflicting or in disagreement with another persons, how is that different than what you've just done? I apologize to anyone here if anything I've said sounds insensitive, snotty , or disdainful. I actually enjoy conflicting views because I believe we sharpen each other as iron sharpens iron.

            2. profile image0
              jonnycomelatelyposted 11 years agoin reply to this

              If you prefaced your statement with "I believe that...." then I would respect it as your own opinion. However, a direct statement that puts your view as absolute truth, for everyone else to accept, does not sit well with me. 

              But then I don't suppose that will matter to you in the least.  So be it.

              1. profile image0
                christiananrkistposted 11 years agoin reply to this

                Do you not believe in absolute truth then? Or is it just the specific statement that i made?

                1. profile image0
                  jonnycomelatelyposted 11 years agoin reply to this

                  I don't even like that expression "believe in."   What do you mean by it?   

                  Absolute truth?   What are you worried about?   Why concentrate on such a concept?  Where will it get you for spending so much time on it?   Especially when any understanding of it will be coloured by your own perceptions.

                  1. profile image0
                    christiananrkistposted 11 years agoin reply to this

                    thats funny you say you dont like the term believe in. in your first response to me you said "If you prefaced your statement with "I believe that...." then I would respect it as your own opinion." Is there a difference between believe in and believe that?

                2. A Troubled Man profile image59
                  A Troubled Manposted 11 years agoin reply to this

                  The only truths we have are those discovered by science. Religions offer few if any truths.

                  1. profile image0
                    christiananrkistposted 11 years agoin reply to this

                    Is it true that only science can be used to discover truth? if so explain to me how science can show this statement to be true.

                  2. Hidan Leif profile image61
                    Hidan Leifposted 11 years agoin reply to this

                    There are many forms of science. Did you know that Theology is in Websters as "The study of the religion"? Just like the science of astronomy, physiology, physics or physical science...
                    Science is also it's own religion in many ways. You believe in science as the provider of all truth the same way a Christian believes that Christ is The Way The Truth and The Life and no man comes to the Father except through Christ. So if you say science is the only source of truth you must be including Theological sciences as well or to the very least Sociological Sciences otherwise you are picking and choosing your sciences as this one provides truth but that one does not. In any case it is faith under a different covering as you believe that a labcoat is the vestment of your faith.

                  3. profile image28
                    puellaposted 11 years agoin reply to this

                    yeap!

    4. Hidan Leif profile image61
      Hidan Leifposted 11 years agoin reply to this

      God does not like to watch suffering, God actually turns his back on the sin of Man because he is separate from it and not present in it. Yes I understand that this negates the precept of an omnipresent God, but in the case before us omnipresence is the ability of God to be in all places at all times. If in the moment of sin, a person stops and prays for intersession then God is present in that and still separate from the sin. This is an advanced concept know, but follow it through.  Man has freewill, but man chooses to do evil with this gift much like a child gets a toy gun for Christmas and uses it to beat their smaller siblings or he can choose to play with it as God intended as the good Father. If we think of God in these terms as the good parent figure we can understand much more deeply how the nature of the universe works.

  3. profile image0
    Sooner28posted 11 years ago

    A careful atheist will not say suffering is an argument against the existence of God; she will say gratuitous suffering is an argument against the existence of a GOOD God.  This leaves open the possibility of an amoral God, and an immoral God.

    Psychologically, most people won't believe in an amoral or immoral God, so generally if the atheist can win the argument, the believer will give up believing in God.

    1. Silverspeeder profile image61
      Silverspeederposted 11 years agoin reply to this

      Trying to prove god is something or not is like trying to prove Adam was a chimpanzee.

    2. gabgirl12 profile image60
      gabgirl12posted 11 years agoin reply to this

      Psychologically people have grown up terrified of either Hell or the boogeyman. Belief in a deity or deities is optional. It's all an attempt at behavior modification.

      1. profile image0
        Sooner28posted 11 years agoin reply to this

        I think that's true.

      2. Hidan Leif profile image61
        Hidan Leifposted 11 years agoin reply to this

        If that is true, what behavior do you think is being modified? Do you believe that it is a tool to cause positive or negative change in a person's life?

  4. janesix profile image61
    janesixposted 11 years ago

    I suspect that the universe can't exist without polarity, which includes "good" and "bad". One thing I KNOW is that God gave humans a built in moral compass, a concious. We inately know right from wrong. Maybe God is something like us. Capable of both good and bad.

    1. A Troubled Man profile image59
      A Troubled Manposted 11 years agoin reply to this

      Nope, the universe is entirely indifferent about good and bad.



      Nope, those are the results of evolution.

      1. janesix profile image61
        janesixposted 11 years agoin reply to this

        Merely your opinion.

        1. A Troubled Man profile image59
          A Troubled Manposted 11 years agoin reply to this

          No, they are common knowledge facts.

          1. janesix profile image61
            janesixposted 11 years agoin reply to this

            You are hilarious

            What facts?

            1. A Troubled Man profile image59
              A Troubled Manposted 11 years agoin reply to this

              You know, the ones we're always trying to get through to you, but you just ignore them in favor of your belief system.

              1. janesix profile image61
                janesixposted 11 years agoin reply to this

                There is no actual theory of evolution. You do realize that, don't you? Any real evidence "supporting" evolution doesn't fit,or flatly contradicts your "theory". Evolution is a farse.

                The funniest thing is that, if asked, you would not even be able to tell me what the theory of evolution IS.

                Go ahead. Try.

                1. profile image0
                  Deepes Mindposted 11 years agoin reply to this

                  Sorry, But I am a Christian and I know evolution isn't a farce. researching this information will get you information of how over time it works.

                  1. janesix profile image61
                    janesixposted 11 years agoin reply to this

                    I have researched it extensively, thanks. That's one of the reson's I know it's crap.

                    Please, why don't YOU give it a shot? Explain evolution to me.

                    I bet you could explain quantum mechanics without a problem. Or relativity. Those are actual theories. Evolution isn't.

                  2. soldout777 profile image60
                    soldout777posted 11 years agoin reply to this

                    God created man !
                    It is as simple as that..(for the believers)

                    Evolution theory:
                    Apes are our ancestors. one day we may evolve into apes again after millions and millions and millions of years!!

                2. wilderness profile image75
                  wildernessposted 11 years agoin reply to this

                  That living organisms (species, not individuals) change over time.  Time perhaps best measured in generations, not minutes, hours or even centuries.

                  How's that?

                  1. janesix profile image61
                    janesixposted 11 years agoin reply to this

                    That is not the theory of evolution. That is just a vague observation.

                3. A Troubled Man profile image59
                  A Troubled Manposted 11 years agoin reply to this

                  Yes, I totally understand you have no idea what evolution entails. It's too bad you have to fabricate lies just to defend your faith.

                  1. janesix profile image61
                    janesixposted 11 years agoin reply to this

                    You are funny once again. You actually BELIEVE the drivel they feed you. Kind of like a monkey. (You're ancestor, I presume)

                4. profile image0
                  Rad Manposted 11 years agoin reply to this

                  Evolution is the change in the inherited characteristics of biological populations over successive generations. Evolutionary processes give rise to diversity at every level of biological organisation, including species, individual organisms and molecules such as DNA and proteins.


                  A simple google search will give you what you look for.

      2. Hidan Leif profile image61
        Hidan Leifposted 11 years agoin reply to this

        The Theory of evolution is still unproven by the scientific method and therefore still is not proven as fact no matter how many evolutionists claim it to be the unalterable truth. I would post links but there would always be at least one "missing link". Sorry could not help myself.

        1. A Troubled Man profile image59
          A Troubled Manposted 11 years agoin reply to this

          You can't post any links because your claim is utterly false.

          1. Claire Evans profile image65
            Claire Evansposted 11 years agoin reply to this

            I was thinking of the theory of evolution the other day and was just thinking...who is our common ancestor with the apes?

            1. A Troubled Man profile image59
              A Troubled Manposted 11 years agoin reply to this

              Are you not capable of doing your own research?

              1. Claire Evans profile image65
                Claire Evansposted 11 years agoin reply to this

                I was just wondering if you know.

                1. A Troubled Man profile image59
                  A Troubled Manposted 11 years agoin reply to this

                  Yes, I have read and understood the evidence regarding our ancestors. You should, too.

                  1. Claire Evans profile image65
                    Claire Evansposted 11 years agoin reply to this

                    So tell me this evidence you understand regarding our ancestors? What's our common ancestor?

            2. profile image0
              jonnycomelatelyposted 11 years agoin reply to this

              lol   Have seen his photo somewhere, but can't think of his name right now.....

              1. A Troubled Man profile image59
                A Troubled Manposted 11 years agoin reply to this

                Doesn't he now work for Geico?

                http://jocksandstilettojill.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/10/geico_caveman_dolphinsgame1-383x575.jpg

                1. profile image0
                  jonnycomelatelyposted 11 years agoin reply to this

                  lol   lol   +++

                  Now, if this was God, him I could worship!



                  http://s3.hubimg.com/u/8261154_f248.jpg

            3. profile image0
              Rad Manposted 11 years agoin reply to this

              Australopithecus afarensis

              1. Claire Evans profile image65
                Claire Evansposted 11 years agoin reply to this

                Lucy is far from being factual proof of being our common ancestor.  Why should I take seriously the founder of Lucy naming her after Lucifer?  He named it after the Beatles song, “Lucy in the Sky with Diamonds,”

                The evidence shows that Lucy is more likely just a chimp and that Johanson was just looking for fame and fortune.


                https://www.apologeticspress.org/apcont … article=76

                Johanson said:

                In regard to Lucy’s pelvis, Johanson affirmed:

                "Lucy’s wider sacrum and shallower pelvis gave her a smaller, kidney-shaped birth canal, compared to that of modern females. She didn’t need a large one because her newborn infant’s brain wouldn’t have been any larger than a chimpanzee infant’s brain (Johanson, et al., 1994, p. 66)."

                Implying a chimp, of course.

                http://www.bestbiblescience.org/evid4.htm

                1. profile image0
                  jonnycomelatelyposted 11 years agoin reply to this

                  Surely that is not a logical conclusion, Claire.   It might fit your preconception, and bias but not the facts.

                2. profile image0
                  Rad Manposted 11 years agoin reply to this

                  Again, your obsession with Satan comes into play.

                  Having a small brain does not mean it was a chimp, it simply means it had a small brain. Imagine if you will a time when humans and chimps became isolated. Two separate groups the same but isolated, they would of course at first have the same size brain. Much like the chimp and the bonobo, they were not long ago the same, but isolation and a separate environment has caused change.

                  1. janesix profile image61
                    janesixposted 11 years agoin reply to this

                    The "hobbits" had small brains,and are thought to be nearly human like in intelligence.

                  2. Claire Evans profile image65
                    Claire Evansposted 11 years agoin reply to this

                    I didn't name Lucy after Lucifer.  Ask him why he did that. 

                    So how did our common ancestor go from having a small brain when the neanderthal had a big brain and then homo sapians went back to having a smaller brain?

                    What is it about Lucy that one can come to a conclusion that she is our common ancestor? Why would you consider it as fact?  In other words, irrefutable evidence that she is our common ancestor.  Why should I believe it when there have been hoaxes like the Piltman?

        2. profile image0
          jonnycomelatelyposted 11 years agoin reply to this

          And theology cannot be proven by the scientific method.......

          1. profile image28
            puellaposted 11 years agoin reply to this

            how come?

            1. wilderness profile image75
              wildernessposted 11 years agoin reply to this

              Possibly because there is nothing out there to observe, test or show to anyone else?

              1. profile image28
                puellaposted 11 years agoin reply to this

                Like you say, possibly...and you know what posibly means? It does not mean probably nor is any definitive on it wink

                1. wilderness profile image75
                  wildernessposted 11 years agoin reply to this

                  You misunderstand.  I was a little sarcastic, but the fact that no god I've ever seen described can be tested by the scientific method.

                  That method, simply put, requires the following steps:

                      Ask a Question
                      Do Background Research
                      Construct a Hypothesis
                      Test Your Hypothesis by Doing an Experiment
                      Analyze Your Data and Draw a Conclusion
                      Communicate Your Results
                  While the question can be asked, it pretty much ends there.  There can be no research of a thing that cannot be detected, except by observing actions attributed to that thing and to do that requires that such actions cannot be accomplished by other methods; something that is very, very difficult to accomplish.

                  A hypothesis can be formulated, but testing that hypothesis is impossible as god cannot be detected and thus cannot be tested.  Without test results, no conclusion can be drawn.

                  Results can be communicated to others, but implicit in that is that others can repeat the tests and that cannot be done. 

                  So god (or most other theology) cannot be proven by the scientific method.

                  1. profile image28
                    puellaposted 11 years agoin reply to this

                    @wilderness "There can be no research of a thing that cannot be detected, except by observing actions attributed to that thing and to do that requires that such actions cannot be accomplished by other methods; something that is very, very difficult to accomplish."

                    Very well put, thank you! By the same token, would you consider the advances to find the 4th element in particle physics be a lost project? It exhibits all of the qualities you mention in your reply which I paste here  "
                    There can be no research of a thing that cannot be detected, except by observing actions"
                    other than the obstacles you just mentioned, God still has not been proved to be or not to be...it still is the question (Shakespeare dixit)

            2. Zelkiiro profile image60
              Zelkiiroposted 11 years agoin reply to this

              Because the supernatural is not testable. Ghosts can't be replicated in a laboratory, God won't cooperate with repeated experiments, and Bigfoot refuses to sit down and be analyzed.

              1. profile image28
                puellaposted 11 years agoin reply to this

                @Zelkiro "Ghosts can't be replicated in a laboratory, God won't cooperate with repeated experiments, and Bigfoot refuses to sit down and be analyzed."
                Then, I think that, by the same token, particles physicists, promised but not yet able to 'get' the fourth element, then can conclude that the 4th  element (Higgs bossom) doe snot exust? It's been hard physicaaly to replicate in the actual experiment the much needed acceleration (and etc) and Mr. Higgs stuff is being misbehavinf or like you nicely pur it as if, and as if, God will not cooperate...Higgs is not cooperating? but still we must believe Science when it promises? or is it a scientist limitation that hopefully one of these days (since promised it's been a loooong long time and it hurts I can tell)...I cannot tell either way wink and you too can't tell either way...so far

                1. profile image0
                  Rad Manposted 11 years agoin reply to this

                  You don't see anyone praying to the higgs particle. You don't see anyone relaying that loving the higgs particle will get you everlasting life in heaven and not believing will get you hell fire.

                  1. profile image0
                    jonnycomelatelyposted 11 years agoin reply to this

                    It's quite bizarre that "god" is depicted as of the spirit, i.e., invisible, all pervading, creating and controlling our lives yet, after our death, is going to inflict punishment upon each of us in ways that could only be experienced in the flesh so to speak.  Such punishment can only be experienced if we retain the body, the skin, the nerve system, the awareness, the pain, the anguish and THE GUILT!

                    No christian that believes in this eternal punishment can describe to you, unquestionably, how their god is going to punish.   They can harp back to the ancient ideas about hell, fire and brimstone.....eternal fire.....banishment from the kingdom, etc.   And, if pressed will probably give some theoretical idea about "separation from god."   Yet it is all just that:  theory.

                    Now puella rants on and on about science being all theory.  But at least in scientific exploration you can admit freely that it's all theory until something gets proven.   With religion it can NEVER get proven!  Thus open to individual interpretation, without the threat of being proven wrong   Hardly a level playing field.

                    When I give respect to a christian's point of view, without feeling I have to go along with his/her ideas (beliefs), do I get the same respect in return?  Not usually, although there are some extremely honest people who do and I treasure their input to my life!

                  2. profile image28
                    puellaposted 11 years agoin reply to this

                    @Rad Man "You don't see anyone praying to the higgs particle. You don't see anyone relaying that loving the higgs particle will get you everlasting life in heaven and not believing will get you hell fire."

                    It all depends on how you 'define' praying, relaying, everlasting life, heaven (do you really consider heaven in an outer space or so?), or...hell (do you really understand the notion of 'hell'?) and all that jazz...
                    Regardless, if what science has to, yet, achieve, shows us that even God (you know, in the dreams of a final theory!) is made up of those four elements, it still will have to be a very 'particular' combination of those elements wink still, science has to make up a good, real good, configuration on how thousands of years after cromagnon,  God keeps up in the life of many (read Popol Vuh, and other books about it)... same as higgs, a first creation made man of corn leaves...it showed way to weak, so then that god created a new man, and so forth..before the bible was known in the west world...Whatever God is, either 4 elemenst or more or less, still is here, He was before, and will be after all of this...unless you or somebody else proves us wrong and that, my dear, is been tried for too many people and too long a time and nothing yet...Even inf the bible is not true revelation (up to anybody to believe or not), that wouls not prove a thing...to me and to thousands...way before Jesus and after Jesus...
                    I have a correction to make: according to many interpretations somehow 'convenient', some pretend that Jesus is not God...well, Jesus IS God, that's why He resurrected, and resurrected others, and all of us from death of the spirit...not from the flesh which is the perishable portion of life. Thanks for the opportunity and respectful reply, Rad Man, indeed.

                  3. profile image28
                    puellaposted 11 years agoin reply to this

                    The subject of suffering...The New York Times has today an editorial for the Noble Laureate Seamus  Heaney, the poet who said interestingly about the root of suffering...and of whom, also, Jesus, devoted some good blessings...
                    here is the link:  http://www.nytimes.com/2013/08/31/opini … p&_r=0
                    And really, how suffering has God as a culprit...it needs a good proof...If God's hands were in the cause of suffering, then those who hate Him should get more suffering? it's a logical fallacy!!! to blame God and also to ignore chance. So we, for one side, favour chance for universe origins, but find God guilty for negligence or indifference when of suffering we talk!!! we can't  have both sides of the arguments if of argumentation we are about...wink

                2. wilderness profile image75
                  wildernessposted 11 years agoin reply to this

                  You are correct.  From Wikipedia: "The Higgs boson or Higgs particle is an elementary particle initially theorised in 1964,[6][7] and tentatively confirmed to exist on 14 March 2013"

                  Notice the "tentative" part?  That's because the scientific method has not been completed.  Other researchers have not confirmed it either by different tests or the same test a second time.

                  1. profile image28
                    puellaposted 11 years agoin reply to this

                    In March 2013 the test failed..it did not accomplish , remember?

    2. profile image0
      Rad Manposted 11 years agoin reply to this

      But all people don't know right from wrong. Why would an omni everything God lease some out?

      1. janesix profile image61
        janesixposted 11 years agoin reply to this

        Of course everyone knows right from wrong. People choose to ignore their concious.

        1. profile image0
          Rad Manposted 11 years agoin reply to this

          Sorry, psychopaths have no conscience. They feel no guilt.

          1. Raitu Disong profile image61
            Raitu Disongposted 11 years agoin reply to this

            simply because their conscience is dead. A simple, fun loving person can also become a monster, if one choose to do the wrong things instead of following the right way. We have the freedom to choose, .. make the right choice

            1. profile image0
              Rad Manposted 11 years agoin reply to this

              Sorry, but you don't understand the psychopath. They are in fact incapable of understanding another's suffering. Look it up. We all don't know right from wrong.

              1. Raitu Disong profile image61
                Raitu Disongposted 11 years agoin reply to this

                i do

          2. Hidan Leif profile image61
            Hidan Leifposted 11 years agoin reply to this

            Feeling guilt and "knowing right from wrong" are two totally separate ideas. Sociopathic and psychopathic behavior still has a rational concept of right from wrong even if they don't "feel" guilt for breaking societies rules as they percieve them.

    3. gabgirl12 profile image60
      gabgirl12posted 11 years agoin reply to this

      Your conscience is merely what makes you aware of your surroundings. Right and wrong are relative to the majority that enforces them.

      1. Hidan Leif profile image61
        Hidan Leifposted 11 years agoin reply to this

        I have to comment on the use of the word "enforce" here. This is a strong egalitarian comment and implies that some entity or other is forcing this concept or morality in some way, but I believe the force being felt is the force of one's own conscience or that of societal pressure.

    4. Philanthropy2012 profile image82
      Philanthropy2012posted 11 years agoin reply to this

      If we 'innately' know right from wrong then we all would have exactly the same morals from birth.

      Unfortunately take any two humans and you'll see that's incorrect.

      Atroubleman is right in the statement that we have an [b] inclination [b] to adapt morals because it has served us great evolutionary advantage.

      1. Hidan Leif profile image61
        Hidan Leifposted 11 years agoin reply to this

        That is a false logical conclusion. Knowing and doing are entirely two separate things. a 2 year old knows they are not supposed to take the cookie from the jar at the top of the refrigerator, but they chose to climb after the cookie anyway. If that child is caught he will "innately" feel scolded without anyone saying a word in most cases showing a physical recoil or some other expression. Now higher moral concepts like societal norms is something else entirely. For example, a child will not know that a certain word is wrong to say in public. If that is your gauge then you have separated "knowledge of right and wrong" from "morality" in such a manner as to ignore societal pressures.

  5. Raitu Disong profile image61
    Raitu Disongposted 11 years ago

    Human minds cannot fathom the mystery of God. Just believe in Him...
    Water is composed of hydrogen and oxygen. But you don't have to prove it's composition, before you are ready to drink. It is wiser to drink and satisfy oneself, rather than trying to prove what exactly is the composition of water.

    You lost nothing by believing in God. Pride will keep us from knowing the truth.

    1. wilderness profile image75
      wildernessposted 11 years agoin reply to this

      And yet - when I go camping I don't drink the water from the river.  I don't know what's in it.

      Just as I don't know what is in the mystery of God.  It will behoove us all to reject taking in anything we don't understand and know.

      1. Raitu Disong profile image61
        Raitu Disongposted 11 years agoin reply to this

        Well, the water in the river is the same you find in your house. They both have the same quality, and you need to drink to live...

        1. profile image0
          jonnycomelatelyposted 11 years agoin reply to this

          Really, Raitu?   Which river?  yikes

      2. Hidan Leif profile image61
        Hidan Leifposted 11 years agoin reply to this

        That is true, you do not know what is in the water...but if that was your only source of water, you would drink it eventually or die of dehydration. You may get sick from the water but you would most likely survive longer than by not drinking it. Thank God we have minds that can find the answers we need to survive right? big_smile

        1. soldout777 profile image60
          soldout777posted 11 years agoin reply to this

          Yeah! you are smart:)

    2. gabgirl12 profile image60
      gabgirl12posted 11 years agoin reply to this

      Human minds cannot fathom the mystery of God. - No, some of don't have time for games or BS.

      Just believe in Him...- No. Don't tell me what to do.

      Water is composed of hydrogen and oxygen. But you don't have to prove it's composition, before you are ready to drink. It is wiser to drink and satisfy oneself, rather than trying to prove what exactly is the composition of water.  - Obviously you haven't read the news lately. Fresh water is a commodity. And in my country the US, the pipelines in our nations water systems need a serious upgrade. So yes, besides tests..repairs are also needed.

      You lost nothing by believing in God - Yeah I did...decades of my life.

      Pride will keep us from knowing the truth.- Exactly, it keeps you religious and stuck in the bronze age.

      1. Raitu Disong profile image61
        Raitu Disongposted 11 years agoin reply to this

        stuck in the  bronze age? .. well the word of God said, He is the same  yesterday, today and forever..  The truth will always be the truth, nothing can change that...

        1. gabgirl12 profile image60
          gabgirl12posted 11 years agoin reply to this

          Yeah, stuck in the bronze age. There is no god, Truth is being honest with yourself and with others and nothing can change that.

          1. Raitu Disong profile image61
            Raitu Disongposted 11 years agoin reply to this

            oh yeah Honesty is the best policy!

            carry on!
            There is God!
            whether you like it or not!

      2. Hidan Leif profile image61
        Hidan Leifposted 11 years agoin reply to this

        I have met some of the most intelligent people on this planet and you know what thing most of them have in common? They believe in a higher power. Not only do they believe but several fields of science have proved that there seems to be some type of cognitive influence in the design of the universe. You are right in that no one can tell you what to believe. I think the zeal of some overcomes their penmanship.

        1. A Troubled Man profile image59
          A Troubled Manposted 11 years agoin reply to this

          The first statement is probably false, unless of course, your definition of intelligent is that of one who operated from a belief system.

          The second is most definitely false.

        2. profile image0
          jonnycomelatelyposted 11 years agoin reply to this

          Maybe, but the belief in that "higher power" is then used by people, who claim to have the authority of the "higher power," to judge others for what is perceived as "god's" demands.
          Believe that there is a higher power.  Fine.  Yes, and that can lead individuals to greater things, both physically, socially and psychologically/spiritually.   But the judgement?  NO.

    3. A Troubled Man profile image59
      A Troubled Manposted 11 years agoin reply to this

      The human mind works in such a way that one does not accept or believe in mysteries it cannot fathom, that is the epitome of delusion.



      But, water is real, it is not a mystery we cannot fathom. We actually understand water.



      One loses a great deal by believing in gods. The list is literally endless and is comprised of almost everything human beings have evolved that makes us compassionate, altruistic and intellectual.

      1. Raitu Disong profile image61
        Raitu Disongposted 11 years agoin reply to this

        I don't lose a thing by believing in God. To talk about God, we need to go beyond our simple reasoning which often leads to wrong conclusion.
        check out this hub, ..

        http://raitudisong.hubpages.com/hub/God … e-Who-wins

        http://raitudisong.hubpages.com/hub/How … rience-God

  6. psycheskinner profile image65
    psycheskinnerposted 11 years ago

    What contemporaneous (dating from the time of his life) evidence for the literal existence of the person of Jesus is there?

    1. Silverspeeder profile image61
      Silverspeederposted 11 years agoin reply to this

      The earliest reference is by Senator Tacitus in AD116 i believe. He confirmed the crucifixion of a man named Jesus by Pontius Pilate the Prefect of the Roman province of Judaea.
      He was also mentioned by Josephus the jewish historian in his writings from AD37.
      Another reference to Jesus indirectly was by Pliny The Younger in AD112.
      Also a letter from a Syrian prisoner to his son in about AD73 by Mara bar Serapion  mentions Jesus although not in name.
      And of course there is a reference to Jesus in the Talmud

      1. JMcFarland profile image71
        JMcFarlandposted 11 years agoin reply to this

        None of those are contemporary.  Josephus is the earliest, 40 something years after the fact (and almost all biblical scholars accept that it is a forgery/extrapolation.  The only debate is now how MUCH was added later)

        Tacitus, Pliny etc have all been researched/deviled/examined by secular scholars including frank zindler, Richard carrier, David Fitzgerald, etc.  their latest book is about that very subject, where they completely dismantle Bart Ehrman's book on the historicity of Jesus question.

        1. Silverspeeder profile image61
          Silverspeederposted 11 years agoin reply to this

          Funny how all the Atheist find fault with historical record. I suppose people see exactly what they want to see.

          1. JMcFarland profile image71
            JMcFarlandposted 11 years agoin reply to this

            This is not something that only atheists have found fault with.  Hearsay and discussing what you have been told from someone else is not a historical record, and it doesn't prove that the original event happened.  Contemporary means at the same time.  There is nothing for a little over forty years.  That's not contemporary.  Even Christian historians say that Josephus is a forgery.  This is not some grand "atheist conspiracy".  Its hotly debated by historians and biblical scholars of all stripes.

            1. Silverspeeder profile image61
              Silverspeederposted 11 years agoin reply to this

              So the writings of any ancient scholars should be taken with a pinch of salt because of the time period that has elapsed.
              So the writings of Ptolemy could be considered BS because there is no conclusive evidence that he lived and could have been the works of later writers in medieval Italy where it would have been considered witchcraft if attributed to them.
              Many theories and little evidence.

              1. profile image0
                Emile Rposted 11 years agoin reply to this

                I wouldn't pay a lot of attention to that. From what I've read only a very small minority of scholars now question the existence of Jesus. The lion's share, Christian or not, agree that Jesus existed, based on historical writings available. Anyone who doesn't think he existed has a reason for wanting to think he didn't.

                1. psycheskinner profile image65
                  psycheskinnerposted 11 years agoin reply to this

                  Really?  I don't care one way or the other whether he existed.  But in all cases of history I realize the lack of contemporaneous accounts weakens the evidence.  One hundred years of myth making can actually create "people" out of whole cloth. My own family history has show examples of that where excuses were made for things that within two generations we thought were true until someone when looking in the records.

                  1. profile image0
                    Emile Rposted 11 years agoin reply to this

                    I do agree that myths build surrounding the history of anyone. Jesus is a prime example. But, as I said, most historians agree that the probability he existed is so high as to make it a given. And think about it. The sources outside of Christianity don't doubt there was a man, they doubt his divinity. The Jewish community probably had over a 95% rate of illiteracy. Accounts make it clear that those who might have been able to read and write were of the same opinion as other sources as to the nature of the man. Although the gospels mention Jesus reading from the scrolls in the temple, I don't know that this proves even Jesus was literate. Muslims memorize the Koran by heart. I'm sure the ancient Jews were similar.

                    So, an illiterate people under the jack boot sandal of the Roman Empire probably had little ability to pass on history within their community in any other way than by word of mouth. Had the Jesus movement died at the crucifixion I doubt anyone would have considered it important enough to help get anything about the man written down.

                2. profile image0
                  Rad Manposted 11 years agoin reply to this

                  What would that reason be?

                  1. profile image0
                    Beth37posted 11 years agoin reply to this

                    Wouldn't that depend on the individual?
                    You could suppose...

                    That if there were a being of love that there was also a dark, evil force that hated mankind and wanted them to suffer.

                    Or that one would have to change one's ways so one denied the exisitince of God the way a smoker might tell himself he wasn't going to get cancer.

                    Im sure there are other reasons, but those two seem obvious.

              2. JMcFarland profile image71
                JMcFarlandposted 11 years agoin reply to this

                Yes, just like Jesus.  Many theories, little evidence.

                See how that works?

            2. Claire Evans profile image65
              Claire Evansposted 11 years agoin reply to this

              Actually it is generally accepted that the Josephus' passage is partially authentic.  In other words, Christians can across his words and put their own interpolations in so put Jesus in a more favourable light.

              Read more:

              http://thedevineevidence.com/jesus_history.html

      2. psycheskinner profile image65
        psycheskinnerposted 11 years agoin reply to this

        Indeed.  So no materials from any person who could actually have met or seen him.  Thus his existence is open to dispute just like a court would dispute hearsay evidence. Unlike, for example, Pilate--where there are engravings relating to him made while he was alive.

        1. Raitu Disong profile image61
          Raitu Disongposted 11 years agoin reply to this

          Christians do not simply rely on the historical evidence. Jesus is alive! It is not blind faith, ... they are not a fool to simply believe in something that don't mean a thing to them.

      3. profile image0
        riddle666posted 11 years agoin reply to this

        Didn't see this "contemporaneous (dating from the time of his life)"?

        1. Silverspeeder profile image61
          Silverspeederposted 11 years agoin reply to this

          There are no contemporaneous writings to confirm that Alexander the Great ever existed so do you believe he did or didn't?
          The first major writings were about 1BC.

          1. Josak profile image61
            Josakposted 11 years agoin reply to this

            Not true, the Babylonian Astronomical Diary is contemporaneous and covers the issue.

            1. Claire Evans profile image65
              Claire Evansposted 11 years agoin reply to this

              Alexander the Great was a powerful figure.  Jesus was only written about by historians when Christianity was gaining power.  That would have grabbed their attention.   Tacitus was such an historian and he must have referenced government records when he referred to Jesus' death under Pontius Pilate.

              "Christus, the founder of the [Christian] name, was put to death by Pontius Pilate, procurator of Judea in the reign of Tiberius. But the pernicious superstition, repressed for a time, broke out again, not only through Judea, where the mischief originated, by through the city of Rome also." Annals XV, 44

              1. Josak profile image61
                Josakposted 11 years agoin reply to this

                Tacitus gives absolutely no indication where he got that info, probably just hearsay.

                The truth is the historical argument for Jesus is non existent.

                1. Claire Evans profile image65
                  Claire Evansposted 11 years agoin reply to this

                  Lol.  You think a historian reports on hearsay? You don't think a historian wouldn't disclose if it was hearsay? If he did hear rumours I think he, as a historian, would check government records to see if it really did happen. He acknowledges Jesus crucifixion by Pilate but dismisses Jesus' divinity as superstition.

            2. Silverspeeder profile image61
              Silverspeederposted 11 years agoin reply to this

              I must concede Josak that after a little research the confirmation of Alexandra,s death was indeed mentioned in the the Chronicles.
              However most of the writings off his military exploits where written about by Greek scholars well after 332BC.
              They also mention other great kings which are also mentioned in the bible for that matter.

              1. Josak profile image61
                Josakposted 11 years agoin reply to this

                The bible is wildly inconsistent historically, many of it's claims are flat out false (a famous example being that we know that Jericho had no walls) and being that it is a text with an obvious agenda it's statements that support that agenda are not reliable or evidential but we have no statements other than from the bible that Jesus existed from his own time and certainly not from anyone who saw or met him or saw his supposed miracles.

                The truth therefore is we have no reliable evidence at all for the existence of Jesus and most certainly no evidence of him as anything supernatural.

                1. soldout777 profile image60
                  soldout777posted 11 years agoin reply to this

                  wow we have a wonderful historian here, who claim to know everything that happened in the first century. You must be having some supernatural power, or a time machine big_smile Do us a favor, write a book about all your findings. It could help many confused historians!

    2. Claire Evans profile image65
      Claire Evansposted 11 years agoin reply to this

      Who should have recorded His existence doing His life-time or, at least, what works could have survived considering Jerusalem was burnt to the ground in 70 AD? Do you think any writings from people who met Him would have survived?

  7. psycheskinner profile image65
    psycheskinnerposted 11 years ago

    What I can't get past is that if God is omniscient, how would he not know that evil was going to enter the world?

    That suggests He is within a world than can do things He cannot foresee.  The only explanation I can see is that this God is either not omniscient, or not omnipotent, or both?

    1. profile image0
      Beth37posted 11 years agoin reply to this

      I believe that God could foresee, He simply believed we were worth it.
      Worth the sadness and loss... To me it's like a couple who got married and had a miserable marriage. They have several children and later divorce. When asked if they could go back and do things differently, they say, "Just to have brought these children into the world makes it all worthwhile." God has no favorites... He offers His love, forgiveness and salvation to all men, they only have to turn to Him.

      1. profile image0
        Emile Rposted 11 years agoin reply to this

        I'll be honest. That explanation kinda sucks. It makes God sound like a bit of a schmuck.

        1. profile image0
          Beth37posted 11 years agoin reply to this

          Ill let you tell Him that. Besides, He didn't tell me that, it's just how Ive always imagined the situation.

          1. profile image0
            Emile Rposted 11 years agoin reply to this

            If God is omnipresent wouldn't telling him that be a little redundant?

            1. profile image0
              Beth37posted 11 years agoin reply to this

              If a woman were beautiful would it be redundant for the man to tell her she is beautiful?

              1. profile image0
                Emile Rposted 11 years agoin reply to this

                Are you saying God is a woman?

                Either way, bad example. I said you made God sound like a schmuck so a better example might have been if a woman is over weight should a man call her fatty.

                1. profile image0
                  Beth37posted 11 years agoin reply to this

                  Im having a hard time understanding what it is you are not understanding.

                  Is this a conversation about worship, about the goodness or lack of goodness of God, or about God's  gender?

                  1. profile image0
                    Emile Rposted 11 years agoin reply to this

                    I said you made God sound like a schmuck with your explanation. You said you'd let me tell him that. (stop me at any point where I deviate from the chain of events) I said, if he was omnipresent it would be redundant. He would already know what was said. You said a woman doesn't mind being repeatedly told she is beautiful. That isn't the same as telling someone, repeatedly, they resemble a schmuck. Repeated compliments don't have the same effect as repeated insults. Do they?

                    Either way, never mind. My whole point was you were working against yourself, if you didn't want to lower anyone's opinion of God. If that was your goal......never mind. smile

                2. profile image0
                  Rad Manposted 11 years agoin reply to this

                  No. Just no. Don't do it.

              2. A Troubled Man profile image59
                A Troubled Manposted 11 years agoin reply to this

                That depends on the vanity of the woman and how often she wants to hear that.

                How vain is your God?

                1. profile image0
                  Beth37posted 11 years agoin reply to this

                  Im not vain, and I want to hear it. It makes me feel loved when my husband pays me a sincere compliment. Romance, words of kindness, compliments... these are all expressions of the heart. God certainly loves humanity deeply, there is nothing abnormal about us returning that same love.

                  1. profile image0
                    Rad Manposted 11 years agoin reply to this

                    So the God you worship is just like you. We have been told we can't understand him because he is far more complex then us, but perhaps all we needed to do was chat with Beth. It's curious to me that your version of God appears to mimic you.

                  2. A Troubled Man profile image59
                    A Troubled Manposted 11 years agoin reply to this

                    Not vain, but you want to hear it? lol



                    And yet, it's a cheap and effective pick up line.



                    And yet, we find example after example after example of a God who is not loving at all, you know, like the divorced marriage example you yourself used. smile

      2. A Troubled Man profile image59
        A Troubled Manposted 11 years agoin reply to this

        What a horrible religion if it's based on that kind of relationship. You call that a loving god? lol

        1. gabgirl12 profile image60
          gabgirl12posted 11 years agoin reply to this

          For their to be loving gods there would have to be loving mortals. Because mortals are the creators of their own god. It sucks however that they are psychopaths, hence why they tend to force their beliefs on other human beings.

  8. soldout777 profile image60
    soldout777posted 11 years ago

    It is interesting to see here that out of ten, only two or three believers could handle the critics.

    1. profile image0
      Rad Manposted 11 years agoin reply to this

      And you think you are one of them?

      1. soldout777 profile image60
        soldout777posted 11 years agoin reply to this

        Yes sir..

    2. profile image0
      Deepes Mindposted 11 years agoin reply to this

      What do you mean by handle the critics? And which two or three are you suggesting are doing it?

  9. Jerami profile image59
    Jeramiposted 11 years ago

    All each of us needs to do is try to leave the world we live in just a little bit better than when we came into it.   Simple.   Nothing complicated about it.

    Then leave humbly, saying, "I did what I could.   It's up to you folks now."
    - = - =
             I agree completely
    ====================

    Hanging on to this idea of "me" existing after my death is so, so pointless. 
    = - =
    I think of it more like that little boy that went to summercamp retaining who he was at camp long after he goes back home to the city life.  Those experiences that he had at camp adds to the person he was before he went to camp AND contributes to the person he becomes after.     
       If that little boy is judged because of his behaviour while at camp  (for the rest of his life (?)  it would not be justus if the judge didn't take into consideration the circumstances and enviroment which influenced any bad behaviour the boy may have committed. 
          I don't think that little boy should spend the rest of his live being tortured  do you?
          We have all committed our mischievous deeds at summer camp.  Isn't it written that one mischevious deed is no greater than another?   

    =================
    It detracts from my efforts in this moment, doing what I can for those immediately around.   It takes my mental energy.   The idea is used by others to create fear and foreboding in my mind, saying there is someone "up there" waiting to judge me.   What absolute nonsense! 
    = - = -
    me   Didn't Jesus die for the sins of the whole World ?   
    He only had to do that in order to satisfy the evil hearts of those selfrightious Phasisees of the day.
    The Pharisee of today say that we are committing a sin in NOT accepting Christ.
        When Jesus died for ALL sins ....   why would he have left this one out.      Did he die to cover ALL sins except for ONE.   If so (?)  then why did he forgive those which were rejecting him and killing him at that moment that he was forgiving them even Before they repented.    ????????
         I do believe that the energy which causes this physical body to perform continues to perform long after this body returns to dust.    I also believe that this energy contains the inteligance to cause this body to perform and much, much more.

    ==================
        It detracts from my efforts in this moment, doing what I can for those immediately around.   It takes my mental energy.   The idea is used by others to create fear and foreboding in my mind, saying there is someone "up there" waiting to judge me.   What absolute nonsense! 
    = - = -
    Didn't Jesus die for the sins of the whole World ?   
    He only had to do that in order to satisfy the evil hearts of those self righteous Pharisees of the day.
    The Pharisee of today say that we are committing a sin in NOT accepting Christ.
        When Jesus died for ALL sins, did he leave this one out?      When Jesus said "Lord forgive them for they know not what they do"   Did he not forgive those that were rejecting AND killing him at that moment ?
        US rightious people say that God is the same yesterday today and tomorrow, AND that Jesus, God and the Holy Ghost are one and the same,           If this is all true, those that do not accept Christ .. "Knows not what they do"       And Jesus died for their sins as well.
          The battle that many Christians think they must fight  (?)    they themselves say that Jesus won that war when he rose up out of the tomb.         So the war is over.   
         So I propose that every Christian begin celebrating by going out and hug an atheist or a homosexual and proclame .....           "The War Is Over" ...    "Let there be Peace on earth"   The kingdom of God  has come.

         Until we can do this ...    It won't.

    1. soldout777 profile image60
      soldout777posted 11 years agoin reply to this

      Yes, the war is over! ...
      It is just a question of
      Where you are standing?
      On the defeated side or with Jesus?
      If you are not standing with Christ, you are doomed..

      1. Josak profile image61
        Josakposted 11 years agoin reply to this

        Other way round tongue religion is fading very very fast, no surprise there.

        1. soldout777 profile image60
          soldout777posted 11 years agoin reply to this

          My faith is not based on how many people are believing or not. Even if I am the only one, my faith will never die, because I know it is the truth. Thank you Lord !

          1. profile image0
            jonnycomelatelyposted 11 years agoin reply to this

            Oh, lol, don't thank me.

            1. soldout777 profile image60
              soldout777posted 11 years agoin reply to this

              ha ha, now you are confused....
              trying to be sarcastic, ...
              It only shows your childishness....

              1. profile image0
                Deepes Mindposted 11 years agoin reply to this

                You may want to edit this, this is considered a personal attack

          2. profile image0
            Sooner28posted 11 years agoin reply to this

            I admire your independence.  It is fallacious to argue that just because a majority of people believe something, it is therefore true. 

            However, not listening to legitimate criticism and refusing to change your mind even if someone came up with a knockdown argument against you isn't rational at all; in fact, it's like when a child puts their fingers in their eyes and runs around yelling, "I can't hear you!  I can't hear you!"

            This would be true of atheism also.  If a theist were to find a sure way to prove God exists, then the atheist would be irrational for denying it.

            1. profile image0
              Rad Manposted 11 years agoin reply to this

              I'm waiting.

            2. JMcFarland profile image71
              JMcFarlandposted 11 years agoin reply to this

              theists have been looking for sure-fire ways to demonstrate the truth of their claims for thousands of years.  all of them have fallen far short of the mark, yet they are still repeated.  I WANT actual evidence to consider and examine.  I WANT a challenge.  I WANT to listen to the stories and form my own conclusions.  I WANT to continue the discussion.  I'm continually disappointed by the lack of what i receive, and I'm continually disappointed by the claims that people know with absolute certainty that their claims are correct - but they're completely unable to demonstrate them or prove them.  If I wasn't open minded and willing to consider all of the possibilities, I wouldn't still be here asking.

              1. soldout777 profile image60
                soldout777posted 11 years agoin reply to this

                Remember no one here will be able to prove it to you in writing, you need to experience it by yourself,  .. . for instance, a very sick man who has lost all hope in medicine comes to you, you prayed for him in the name of God ,and  he got healed instantly, will you still deny there is no God who is watching over us?

                1. profile image0
                  Rad Manposted 11 years agoin reply to this

                  That's a new one. So someone prayed for a sick person and the prayer made them better? Is that all we have to do for the dying is pray? Quick, everyone to the nearest hospital, we need to save lives. Why are you just sitting their. I'll be down at sick kids for the next 48 hours. But there is the story about the parents who refused to bring their sick kid to the hospital and instead prayed and the kid died anyway and then they did the same thing to the second kid? Perhaps they don't know how to do it. Maybe soldout777 can show us how to do it before we waste out time and more people die. Do we say a specific prayer? Is there any money to be made here? Come on folks lets do this.

                  1. soldout777 profile image60
                    soldout777posted 11 years agoin reply to this

                    God will do what is best,..
                    don't try to be sarcastic,
                    just be yourself, and try  learn something...

                2. profile image0
                  Deepes Mindposted 11 years agoin reply to this

                  In light of the news about the parents who lost two kids because they believe in faith healing and refused to take them to the hospital when they were sick, this might not be the best example

                  1. profile image0
                    Rad Manposted 11 years agoin reply to this

                    Look up a few posts my friend I beat you to it. My post is somewhat dripping with sarcasm.

                3. JMcFarland profile image71
                  JMcFarlandposted 11 years agoin reply to this

                  I don't trust personal experiences as indisputable evidence of the supernatural.  If I have an experience that I cannot explain, I go out and research possible explanations.  I ask people who know more about various subjects than I do. I study the science.  If, after all of that, I STILL can't explain it, then I have something that I cannot explain.  That does not mean that I get to just assert that it was a god who has still not been proven to even EXIST just because I don't know what happened.

                  I hear all these healing stories all the time.  Yet, when you get deeper into them, you realize that they didn't happen to the person who's telling you the story.  They didn't happen to a person that the person telling the story actually knows.  They happened to a friend of a friend of a friend who knows this guy in a different church/city/state - and they just decide that a god healed him - and disregard all of the medial attention that they've received and treatments that they've undergone.

                  If prayer can really heal people, there should be evidence of it - and there should be no christians dying of cancer or in hospitals with debilitating illnesses.  We both know that it isn't true, don't we?

                  1. soldout777 profile image60
                    soldout777posted 11 years agoin reply to this

                    Well, i agree with you on the fact that people die, even after many prayers.
                    You will not agree with me, but according to the Bible, whatever happens , happens for the good of those who trust in  him.

                    so you will ask, is death a good thing?
                    God works in ways that is too hard for humans to fathom, but in the end you will realize the goodness of God.

            3. soldout777 profile image60
              soldout777posted 11 years agoin reply to this

              if someone came up with a knockdown argument against me, I ll definitely change my mind. ..But I am sure no one can come up with that...

              1. A Troubled Man profile image59
                A Troubled Manposted 11 years agoin reply to this

                You don't have an argument to knock down, it is already self defeating.

                1. soldout777 profile image60
                  soldout777posted 11 years agoin reply to this

                  OH, that is your version,....
                  Open your eyes and you will see the truth.
                  The truth will set you free, but at first it will piss you off...
                  Now open your eyes to see the truth, but if you want to continue walking like a blind man, it's your decision, continue on your way ..
                  safe journey

                  1. JMcFarland profile image71
                    JMcFarlandposted 11 years agoin reply to this

                    No, "our" version is that until something can be demonstrably proven to exist, there's no reason to believe that it does and give our lives over to it in the mere hope that it may be true or in fear that it is.

                    I don't live my life in fear of bigfoot.  I don't act nicely all year so Santa will bring me presents.  I don't worry about ending up in any one of the dozens of version of hell that have been asserted over several thousand years.  I don't believe that any of these things exist because no one has proven that they do.  Until such a time as something can be demonstrably proven (which you, yourself admit that your god can't be) there's no reason to believe in it or behave in a manner in accordance with that belief.

                  2. A Troubled Man profile image59
                    A Troubled Manposted 11 years agoin reply to this

                    You are not offering any truths, that is obvious.

                2. soldout777 profile image60
                  soldout777posted 11 years agoin reply to this

                  I don't have to argue, I just have to tell you the truth, the rest you can take it or leave it. ..I don't lose a thing..

                  1. A Troubled Man profile image59
                    A Troubled Manposted 11 years agoin reply to this

                    But, you are not telling us any truth.

                  2. JMcFarland profile image71
                    JMcFarlandposted 11 years agoin reply to this

                    It's the "truth" according to you - but you can't prove that it's true.  Until you do, there's no reason to take it seriously.

              2. JMcFarland profile image71
                JMcFarlandposted 11 years agoin reply to this

                So what are your arguments FOR the existence of god.  Real, actual arguments that can be debated - not personal experiences, not "FEELINGS" not anything that exists only in your mind.  what ARE your arguments, and how long have you spent studying the alternatives?

                1. soldout777 profile image60
                  soldout777posted 11 years agoin reply to this

                  I know God exists. If you disagree, prove otherwise. Oh you say you can't prove God doesn't exist? That's because you know he does!

                  1. A Troubled Man profile image59
                    A Troubled Manposted 11 years agoin reply to this

                    You say you can't prove God exists? That's because you know he doesn't!

                    See how ridiculous your statement?

            4. profile image0
              Sooner28posted 11 years agoin reply to this

              EARS, not eyes tongue.

      2. profile image0
        jonnycomelatelyposted 11 years agoin reply to this

        You make me shudder in fear, Soldout777!

        1. soldout777 profile image60
          soldout777posted 11 years agoin reply to this

          that is good for you.

  10. JMcFarland profile image71
    JMcFarlandposted 11 years ago

    *smiles* just wanted to share.


    http://s3.hubimg.com/u/8133306_f248.jpg

    1. profile image0
      Motown2Chitownposted 11 years agoin reply to this

      Awwwwwwwww.

    2. profile image0
      Deepes Mindposted 11 years agoin reply to this

      Beautiful pic!!

  11. Raitu Disong profile image61
    Raitu Disongposted 11 years ago
  12. ud1093 profile image38
    ud1093posted 11 years ago

    I think god is a person who lives his whole life with us from the first time we are told about him and he has no relation with suffering or so but he is a guide a humble guide who will always give a thought small thought in your mind of what to do right or wrong as a person goes on doing wrong he looses god his life partner dies in grief.

    1. profile image0
      jonnycomelatelyposted 11 years agoin reply to this

      .....like the Still Small Voice of Calm...... good point

  13. profile image48
    Tia1809posted 11 years ago

    Because they think that if he did exist he would stop it all, plus there is no evidence that anything said about him is real, we are just going on what a bunch of dead guys say- in theory.

    http://hubpages.com/u/8146541_f248.jpg

    1. ud1093 profile image38
      ud1093posted 11 years agoin reply to this

      Who is He you are referring to

  14. profile image0
    Beth37posted 11 years ago

    So that's a no to buttered toast... gotcha.

  15. safiq ali patel profile image69
    safiq ali patelposted 11 years ago

    Well why do believers doubt god when they are suffering. There are plenty of people who have faith who wonder why god does not act when they are suffering.

  16. Jerami profile image59
    Jeramiposted 11 years ago

    "IF" a person truly believes there is a creator God and there is a life eternal avaliable to us after death, and if our/their names were written in the book of life from the foundation of the earth; then why can they not believe they were not in that eternal life before they entered into these physical bodies in which we reside.

        And IF they believe this ???,,,   then why do we worship this life in which we live, knowing it is SOooo  temporary.   And that goes for that other person too.   That other person of whom is also in their temporary state of existance (just like me) but is a bigger sinner than me (acording to me). 

    If there is any truth stated above, then why would I spend my peace and harmony worring about what somebody else  may be doing in the privacy of their own peace and harmony?

  17. pixelsweet profile image61
    pixelsweetposted 11 years ago

    It depends on your way of thinking about about God. God is love and there is no evil in him. Heaven is light there is no darkness. Heaven is the highest moralilty in the presence of God. Now the devil was an angel that  pride and rebelion took over he became evil and wanted to be God. Jealsous of GOD and his power his ruler of the whole universe. He took one third of angels that are now evil demons that where cast out of heaven cause evil and the light can not be together. They came to the earth in darkness. we have to fight aginst our enemy the devil and the demons with Jesus help we fight the good fight of faith. so there is hope for humanity there is hope. God wants you to prosper as your soul prospers. God loves us. He is our saviour our creator. He sent his Son Jesus Christ to take the sin of the whole world and sickness. He love GOD cause he loved us first and sent his son Jesus to pay for our sins and sickness. Because the wages of sin is death. So the saviour Jesus came to fight the devil death and take back life the keys of hell to take back what the devil has stolen from us life. Now we have eternal life through Jesus Chirst on the cross took the sin of the word. It's very beauitful and amazing what God has done for us given humanity a second chance saved by grace of perfect love.

    1. profile image0
      Beth37posted 11 years agoin reply to this

      Truth.

  18. pixelsweet profile image61
    pixelsweetposted 11 years ago

    some like to be tomas in the bible to see and touch the hole in Jesus hands. Jesus says," But blessings for those who believe and have not seen." Jesus is the truth and the life."

    1. JMcFarland profile image71
      JMcFarlandposted 11 years agoin reply to this

      No, some of us would like any evidence whatsoever to believe that any of it is actually true.  Silly us.

      1. profile image0
        Deepes Mindposted 11 years agoin reply to this

        Yep.. Shame on you, JM

    2. A Thousand Words profile image68
      A Thousand Wordsposted 11 years agoin reply to this

      So Jesus basically said "better is it for the gullible." Because only gullible people will take someone's word for something because those words are "awe-inspiring" and they are either said to be or claim to be Divine or connected to the Divine. How many cults get started that way?

      1. profile image0
        Rad Manposted 11 years agoin reply to this

        Oh, I am so glad you came back. Chris even admits to missing you. smile

    3. soldout777 profile image60
      soldout777posted 11 years agoin reply to this

      Absolutely...

      1. profile image0
        jonnycomelatelyposted 11 years agoin reply to this

        Only because she agrees with you..... nothing proven, only believed.

        I know you will never change as a result of any discussion here, so good luck to you.

        1. soldout777 profile image60
          soldout777posted 11 years agoin reply to this

          I am already a changed person. I don't have to change again. I know what  I am doing.

          There will always be doubting thomas!
          so good luck to you.

          1. profile image0
            jonnycomelatelyposted 11 years agoin reply to this

            And there IS no consciousness, no awareness, without change.   When everything remains just as it is, for ever, then there is no consciousness.  In our language, it's called "death."

            1. soldout777 profile image60
              soldout777posted 11 years agoin reply to this

              I am a believer. ,,I know what I am doing is right...
              According to those who believe in God, you are a pitiful person, dead in spirit.

              1. profile image0
                riddle666posted 11 years agoin reply to this

                That's ok, for he is not a moron like some believers who soldout their intelligence to priests.

              2. profile image0
                jonnycomelatelyposted 11 years agoin reply to this

                Oh, I do understand where you are coming from..... if I am dead in spirit, why would that worry you?  If your "faith" and certainty are as strong as you say, then your future in eternity is assured.

                1. soldout777 profile image60
                  soldout777posted 11 years agoin reply to this

                  I am telling you what I know is true, just like you ....
                  Yes as long as I do the will of God, I am safe!...

                  1. janesix profile image61
                    janesixposted 11 years agoin reply to this

                    If, like Abraham, God asked you to kill someone (God told him to kill his son, remember?) then would you "do God's will?".

                    I would not.

                    I would certainly do anything God asked of me, if it was in line with my own sense of what is right. If I felt it was wrong though, I would refuse, safe or not.

              3. psycheskinner profile image65
                psycheskinnerposted 11 years agoin reply to this

                "If anyone thinks he is religious and does not bridle his tongue but deceives his heart, this person's religion is worthless." Jame 1:26

              4. profile image0
                Deepes Mindposted 11 years agoin reply to this

                ***DISCLAIMER***




                Soldout, I am a believer in God, but please do not presume to speak for all of us. Not every believer believes that way of unbelievers

                1. soldout777 profile image60
                  soldout777posted 11 years agoin reply to this

                  1 And you being dead in your trespasses and sins 2 in which you once walked according to the age of this world, according to the ruler of the authority of the air, the spirit now working in the sons of disobedience 3 among whom also we all conducted ourselves once in the lusts of our flesh, performing the desires and thoughts of the flesh, and we were by nature children of wrath as also the rest. (Ephesians 2:1-3 Possessing the Treasure New Testament V1...

                  In Ephesians 2:1, the word “dead” translates the adjective νεκροὺς (nekrous) the Accusative, Plural of νεκρός (nekros), “dead.” An unsaved person, an unbeliever, is a spiritual corpse. This temporal life is actually a living death. He or she may be walking and breathing, but they are dead spiritually while they live physically.

                  you may  or may not agree, but it is from the Bible!

                  1. profile image0
                    Deepes Mindposted 11 years agoin reply to this

                    At the same time, the bible states that all sin and fall short of the glory of God. So in our sins and trespasses, even a believer can be spiritually dead in our sin and iniquity because in spite of our best intentions, we still perform sinful acts knowingly or unknowingly.

                    **EDIT** Even if you're believing what the bible says, the final word of who is alive and who is dead belongs to God. It is not up to us to declare (as you did) that someone is dead because of their unbelief.. In fact, the scriptures that you posted do not even speak specifically to unbelievers. They speak to sinners (of which the bible teaches that we all are, believers and unbelievers)

          2. profile image0
            jonnycomelatelyposted 11 years agoin reply to this

            And now I have changed, from being awake to being tired.   It's almost 1.am and I will go back to bed.... will read what more you have to say tomorrow.

  19. profile image0
    Beth37posted 11 years ago

    I actually made one with both of you in it. You both look like contestants in a Mr. and Ms. Universe contest. You're welcome.

    1. profile image0
      Rad Manposted 11 years agoin reply to this

      Melissa and I are are the picture of couple perfection. She, tall gorgeous and tanned and me, well none of those things, but thanks Beth.

      1. MelissaBarrett profile image59
        MelissaBarrettposted 11 years agoin reply to this

        You've got a really good view though smile

        Seriously, you are very good looking.  You need to stop beating yourself up.

        1. profile image0
          Rad Manposted 11 years agoin reply to this

          You can tell I'm good looking by my kid picture? Cool. Thanks, but being humble and honest is important to me. And I'm gorgeous and you rock sister!

          1. MelissaBarrett profile image59
            MelissaBarrettposted 11 years agoin reply to this

            No, I learned it while I was sitting outside your window with binoculars.

            You are gorgeous... and I do rock.

  20. profile image0
    Beth37posted 11 years ago

    If I get banned for that, I'm suing all of you.

    1. profile image0
      Rad Manposted 11 years agoin reply to this

      LOL thanks Beth you again made me laugh.

      1. profile image0
        Beth37posted 11 years agoin reply to this

        lol

        1. profile image0
          Rad Manposted 11 years agoin reply to this

          You however should be aware that I have a very close friend who is currently a high paid out of world corporate lawyer, so good luck.

          1. profile image0
            Beth37posted 11 years agoin reply to this

            I spose he could confiscate my paycheck to fill his gas tank. He could take a years worth and take you out to a nice dinner. My kids didn't need the banana they were going to have for dinner tonight anyway.

          2. profile image0
            Beth37posted 11 years agoin reply to this

            Or were you suggesting something else? Cause Im pretty sure Im not allowed to say that word twice.

  21. soldout777 profile image60
    soldout777posted 11 years ago

    Remember, God is the father of all the sciences.
    Everyday science is coming up with new inventions and discoveries.
    One day it will prove to everyone that God exist!

    1. Zelkiiro profile image60
      Zelkiiroposted 11 years agoin reply to this

      If science does, one day, prove that the Christian God is real, then it is imperative that he must be destroyed for the countless crimes he's committed against humanity. And if we discover that Lucifer is real, too, then his creation is yet another reason to sentence him to death.

      1. soldout777 profile image60
        soldout777posted 11 years agoin reply to this

        Sure, one day, Science will prove God is real!,
        Do you blame God for all the bad things human does?

        He is showing us the right way to live. It is up to us to choose his way or not.

    2. profile image0
      jonnycomelatelyposted 11 years agoin reply to this

      soldout777, I say this now with a genuine desire to help you understand yourself, and your journey.

      That God which you think will come some time in the future is, in fact, right inside of you.   That god is at the centre of your being.  You can access "Him" or "Her" or however you choose to perceive your God.  You do not need to wait.  Just go into that "still small voice of calm," learn to be in touch, and you will find.  If you believe that Jesus lived, this is what he was talking about all the time.  The same message then, 2000 years ago, as it is today.

      1. soldout777 profile image60
        soldout777posted 11 years agoin reply to this

        Well thank you Jonny for trying to help me!
        But I wrote,  one day, Science will prove God is real!,..for those who don't believe in Him now.
        He is real to me. I don't have to wait. He is in my heart.

    3. ud1093 profile image38
      ud1093posted 11 years agoin reply to this

      Same here But Thats not just not enough

  22. Zubair Ahmed profile image78
    Zubair Ahmedposted 11 years ago

    I guess its because somewhere deep in their mind and soul, God spot exists and it is that which drives them to seek forum threads which speak about God.  I see no other logical explanation!

    1. psycheskinner profile image65
      psycheskinnerposted 11 years agoin reply to this

      I would suggest broadening your awareness of basic human diversity.

    2. soldout777 profile image60
      soldout777posted 11 years agoin reply to this

      Exactly!
      They seem so interested in talking about God...

  23. profile image50
    teacheratlargeposted 11 years ago

    Suffering is actually a good thing. In essence, when one hurts, the first thing that comes to mind is "God". I am not sure how atheists respond to pain, but pain is a way to let you know that you are alive. If you never hurt, never suffer a disappointment, you would tumble through life never wondering about the object of your existence. I believe that people who do not believe in a higher power, choose to live without consequences to their behavior. When you do something that hurts someone, if you believe in God, you listen to your conscience, and are plagued by your guilt. If you do not believe that you owe responsibility for your actions, there are no consequential ownerships for them.

    1. JMcFarland profile image71
      JMcFarlandposted 11 years agoin reply to this

      Yeah, you don't know many atheists, do you?  If you did, you would not make such ridiculous, unfounded assumptions about us.

    2. profile image0
      Rad Manposted 11 years agoin reply to this

      Is that why prisons are full of believers and all the Atheists are on the outside? Do you think Atheists are not human and have no conscience?

      1. soldout777 profile image60
        soldout777posted 11 years agoin reply to this

        Interesting,,,
        and all the Atheists are on the outside?

        So if anyone find any atheist in prison.. then you will have to admit that you are wrong! ..

        1. profile image0
          Rad Manposted 11 years agoin reply to this

          Statistically, roughly 20% of North America are Atheists however less than 0.5% of the prison population identify as Atheists while entering the prison. Christians BTW are overly represented, and I only bring this up because someone claimed Atheist have no conscience.

          1. profile image0
            Deepes Mindposted 11 years agoin reply to this

            This raises an interesting question. How many of the people who check Christian are actually Christian vs those who check it to look more favorable in the system?

            1. profile image0
              jonnycomelatelyposted 11 years agoin reply to this

              I must get back to bed.... went first to bed at 7.30pm because it was cold and there was nothing of interest on TV.  Then got up about 12.30am and enjoyed the to-and-fro banter here in HP... now the fire has gone out and it's freezing!
              Will catch up with all the good rhetoric in the morning.

              1. profile image0
                Deepes Mindposted 11 years agoin reply to this

                Good night

          2. soldout777 profile image60
            soldout777posted 11 years agoin reply to this

            Still 0.5% shows that atheist too are in prisons!!
            And you
            First need to know who the real Christians are. There are so many in sheep's clothing.
            Christians are those who follow Jesus. Jesus taught the people to do good, not to steal, murder, rape...

            1. profile image0
              jonnycomelatelyposted 11 years agoin reply to this

              He also asked them why the worshiped him.

            2. Zelkiiro profile image60
              Zelkiiroposted 11 years agoin reply to this
              1. profile image0
                Rad Manposted 11 years agoin reply to this

                They sometimes read like a book.

            3. profile image0
              Rad Manposted 11 years agoin reply to this

              Real Christians are those who say they are.

    3. profile image0
      jonnycomelatelyposted 11 years agoin reply to this

      If you teach people that sort of supercilious nonsense I hope the majority have the good sense to turn away.

  24. MurielGoesGreen profile image60
    MurielGoesGreenposted 11 years ago

    Thinking about suffering, read Genesis. Look at what Joseph went through, he needed to go through those things in order to get to his God given destination. Suffering has a purpose, the real horror is when we turn ourselves from God and inflict undue suffering on ourselves.

    1. profile image0
      Rad Manposted 11 years agoin reply to this

      Do you guys listen to yourselves? Do you think about what your saying?

    2. profile image0
      jonnycomelatelyposted 11 years agoin reply to this

      It's surely very easy for any of us, living in relative high comfort of an industrialised nation, enjoying good food and water, good transport, and relatively peaceful social conditions, to theorise about pain and suffering.
      Muriel, your theorising to support your religious beliefs is not really credible.

      1. vveasey profile image71
        vveaseyposted 11 years agoin reply to this

        jonnycomelately
        I don't know why this believers are blaming poor Satan for the evil in the world. Satan didn't create evil according their bible, they can thank God for the evil in the world
        " I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the Lord do all these things. ( Isaiah 45:7 King James Version)
        What do you think about that?

        1. profile image0
          jonnycomelatelyposted 11 years agoin reply to this

          If "I The Lord" is in fact Humankind, then yes, that is as close as we can get to the true nature of the World's problems.
          If and when we Humans get to looking at ourselves honestly, clearly, without any of the politically correct BS, and dispense with that silly scape goat called "God," then maybe we can save our species and the World.
          Humankind is "The Lord" and "Satan," all rolled into one, yet balanced on a See Saw.   Which ever way we lean, the opposite will come out tops.

          1. profile image0
            Rad Manposted 11 years agoin reply to this

            Hey Jonny, as always you are a great inspiration to me as others even sometime note. I wish sometimes I could be just a little more like you.

            Thanks
            Your friendly neighbourhood RAD MAN.

            1. profile image0
              jonnycomelatelyposted 11 years agoin reply to this

              Thanks RAD MAN.  Your input is just as important.   So is Soldout's.    We need to see from every aspect.

  25. JMcFarland profile image71
    JMcFarlandposted 11 years ago

    Hey Beth?  Isn't this the guy you keep pointing to as proof, and you keep trying to get us to read and accept his story?

    http://news.yahoo.com/proof-heaven-auth … 11093.html

    1. profile image0
      jonnycomelatelyposted 11 years agoin reply to this

      Such a story would never have come about if people, especially religious Americans, did not feel at least a tiny bit uneasy about proclaiming the existence of "god."
      Much of their religion takes the form of superstition.   Then a lot of individuals, in the God-endorsed billionaire market place, come up with an Amway-type presentation to woo and trap others into supporting the billionaire's hip pockets.
      Yours sincerely,
      Prehistoric Skeptic.

  26. youcanwin profile image49
    youcanwinposted 11 years ago

    If there was no God, we would all be "accidents," the result of astronomical random chance in the universe. You could stop living your life, because life would have no purpose or meaning or significance. There would be no right or wrong, and no hope beyond your brief years here on earth.

    1. profile image0
      Rad Manposted 11 years agoin reply to this

      That statement may be true for you, but not for me. Here's a little tip to help you. We all don't think just like you.

    2. profile image0
      riddle666posted 11 years agoin reply to this

      That is one of the most absurd things I have heard.
      If you can't live without that concept, that is your problem.

    3. Zelkiiro profile image60
      Zelkiiroposted 11 years agoin reply to this

      Only the most degenerate and sick minds need the threat of God's wrath to do good. Why, exactly, do you need a reason or a purpose?

      1. soldout777 profile image60
        soldout777posted 11 years agoin reply to this

        God's wrath!
        God will punished you only when you do something wrong. Unless you are planning to do something bad, don't be scare dude!

        1. profile image0
          jonnycomelatelyposted 11 years agoin reply to this

          Watch out, Soldout --- you are not using your brain to good effect.

          1. soldout777 profile image60
            soldout777posted 11 years agoin reply to this

            ok  so now you are telling me the same thing again.
            You mentioned ."Deepes is using his brain to good effect". Great
            And he believes in God and you are not. So you are contradicting your own words unless you say deepes is also not using his brain because he believes in God!.

            1. profile image0
              jonnycomelatelyposted 11 years agoin reply to this

              Applying reason.   Looking at hypotheses.   Willing to look "outside the square."   Willing to admit one is wrong.   Striving for new knowledge.   Reassessing old knowledge, revisiting precious old beliefs.

              Watching in awe at the wonders and mysteries of this world.   If there is a "creator" of this world, then I am in total humility and bow down to it.

              Your "god," Soldout, is not of this order.   The judge that you dream of and concoct from ancient scriptures, is of your own making.   Confined, limited, incredible and personal to you.   

              Others who do not limit their "god" in such a way, for me they appear to be using their brain.   I might be wrong of course.

              Could you ever be wrong in what you believe, Soldout?

              1. soldout777 profile image60
                soldout777posted 11 years agoin reply to this

                I understand your point.
                I agree with the first part ...
                Let me tell you again, I was a skeptic. But now I believe in God. If He is fake, there is no way  I should continue to believe in God. But now I know He is the truth. So I am sharing with you my beliefs. But all are free to choose who to follow. I am still a skeptic, open to ideas,, but right now, I don't see anything worth believing than God.

                1. profile image0
                  jonnycomelatelyposted 11 years agoin reply to this

                  I respect that position for yourself and am not trying to change that point of view.... for yourself.

                  Please respect others for their views without making the presumption that your views are the only right ones.   I am being to harsh here?   Or is this reading into it more than what you have implied?

                  1. soldout777 profile image60
                    soldout777posted 11 years agoin reply to this

                    No, you are not being harsh ...
                    I respect the views of others, very much that's why I could still be friends with some of my atheist friends.

                    But you know, when somebody just said, "There is no God" It reflects his narrow mind. They too should not conclude so soon, everyday we are discovering new things, ...Time will tell us if we are right or wrong,,,
                    Peace JCL!

        2. profile image0
          Deepes Mindposted 11 years agoin reply to this

          Define What you mean when you say "do something wrong/bad"

          1. Raitu Disong profile image61
            Raitu Disongposted 11 years agoin reply to this

            I am talking about SIN bro!

            1. profile image0
              jonnycomelatelyposted 11 years agoin reply to this

              Fear-mongering.

              1. profile image0
                Rad Manposted 11 years agoin reply to this

                You/I have to admit it was a great idea a few thousand years ago to keep the uneducated, immoral people in line. Tell them they are being watched and judge by someone who can see anything/anywhere with the power to torture for eternity.

                But, it seems kind of infantile today.

                1. soldout777 profile image60
                  soldout777posted 11 years agoin reply to this

                  Why are you so scared of God when He loves you so much???

                  1. JMcFarland profile image71
                    JMcFarlandposted 11 years agoin reply to this

                    Why do you assume that atheists are afraid of a god that they don't believe exists?  Doesn't that seem a bit silly?  It's like claiming that we're angry at said god.  You can't be angry or fearful of something that you don't think is real.

                  2. profile image0
                    Rad Manposted 11 years agoin reply to this

                    I'm not afraid of your fictions character.

                    Where do I appear scared? It seems that I appear to be the brave one as I'm not afraid of his wrath, while you worship him out of fear.

                    Be brave young man. There is no boogie man.

    4. profile image0
      jonnycomelatelyposted 11 years agoin reply to this

      A falsely understood concept.   It is proposed that we came about by a "step-by-step" process of evolution that came about as the result of physical laws of the known universe.   

      By scientific process you can observe; make proposals; design experiments to test those proposals; observe again and again; prove/disprove; repeat the experiments to confirm one way or the other;  THEN extrapolate those laws beyond the immediate circumstances.   The understanding that comes about from such a program is infinite.   It does not lead to complacency.   It lifts one's mind beyond the mundane to the infinite possibilities.   Some call this "God," and let it rest there without doing any more exploration.   A bit lazy really, but nevertheless a  free choice. 

      This is why many a scientist still "believes in God."   The sense of awe is not limited.  Some people, like myself, choose to delete the limiting concept of a God that demands conformity and replace it with that Sense Of Awe.  It's much more edifying and uplifting, in my experience.

      1. soldout777 profile image60
        soldout777posted 11 years agoin reply to this

        Hats off to the 21st century know-all scientist!

        1. profile image0
          jonnycomelatelyposted 11 years agoin reply to this

          Now who might that be?  lol

          1. soldout777 profile image60
            soldout777posted 11 years agoin reply to this

            It's you man!

            1. profile image0
              jonnycomelatelyposted 11 years agoin reply to this

              It's hilarious.  I have just been watching a TV show of Wallace and Gromit..... good religious science, with a lot of good sense to it.

              1. soldout777 profile image60
                soldout777posted 11 years agoin reply to this

                Well keep watching!
                It's good to have some entertainment:)

  27. jacharless profile image71
    jacharlessposted 11 years ago

    Isn't that special...

    You know, for years this has bothered me.
    The concept of specialism because one believes -or lacks belief- in a (or many) a G/god. But it makes "perfect sense" in the cyclical mind. If there are special folk, there must then be inferior. If there is good, there must be evil. Truth, Lies. Right(eous) Unright(eous). Yin, Yang. Darkness, Light. Angels, demons. Etcetera , etcetera...
    Ironically, the position of these elements with most sensational application of Theos come from a skewed view of the texts, more precisely the Law of Sin and its effect, Death. I would venture to guess most Christians -even Hebrews- are unaware the entire sum-substance of the text is all about the Law of Sin and Death. Yet, most fail to understand (recollect really) that this issue was put to rest quite some time ago. No one is righteous or unrighteous, good or evil, right or wrong any longer. Both are simply lacking one thing to dismiss the Moral Dilemma once and for all -practical faith. Faith beyond words; beyond hope; beyond (gasp) belief itself. The longer there exists a necessity to believe or lack belief in any thing, the longer the carrot dangles in front of the person. Funny of it, even an ass at some point in its treading and straining to get that bloody carrot will stop chasing it or fall down dead from exhaustion.

    Wouldn't it make better sense to dismiss and negate the ideology of "I'm better or worse because..." and simply exhaust all possible resources at achieving complete individual restoration to Purity, versus bantering about wounds inflicted or received, because of the wedge of the Ego (Hebrew literal translation: ha~satan)? Could it possibly be high-time to put aside these entertaining endeavors for actual solidification of what is supposedly believed -to put it to the test- practical testing- and see what special truly translates to?


    James.

    1. profile image0
      jonnycomelatelyposted 11 years agoin reply to this

      Excellent expansion.... neither good nor bad.

      Each of us; each and every species of animal, plant, insect, lump of slime.... my (our) categorization, because it makes the choices in life simpler..... has a place in this world.  Each of us develops methods, skills, to help us survive from the point of birth to the point of death.   These methods are in many cases beyond our imagination, so that when we suddenly see how some one, or something, has developed a particular trick-or-the-trade, we are amazed at how it could all come about.

      The traits and skills of our own species, Homo sapiens, has survived by, for example, being able to adapt to so, so many habitats and living conditions.   Weather; drought; flood; lack of food; different foods that are available; natural (geological) variations; etc., etc.

      Every other form of life on this planet has done the same, and if no survival skill was found that was effective, then that species died (dies) out.   WE will do the same, if our arrogance does not get tempered and ablated by good, down-to-earth common sense and humility.

      Up to now, one of those traits, which has aimed at survival of the fittest, has been the presumption of superiority.   I come from British stock, and we are past masters at this sort of ruse.  The U.S.of A. has taken up the baton for a long time now.   We subdue those who do not bow down and worship us, even to the point of starving them out, or castrating them so they can't breed and out-whit us.  All this goes in tandem with the pursuit of a God-led religion, "God" of course being humanity itself!

      In the name of the Dogs, and Cats and Mice that have walked beside us and laughed their little heads off.

      Here end-eth the lesson, Amen.

  28. DanaTheSmall profile image59
    DanaTheSmallposted 11 years ago

    I say let anyone believe what they want, as long as they don't harm others.

  29. soldout777 profile image60
    soldout777posted 11 years ago

    I am not calling them fools,
    I wrote, The Bible says...
    Jesus came to this world. He is the prince of peace. But why did the people kill him? Is it because He is too good, trying to please everyone, including the priest who are not doing the right thing
    Jesus was killed because He exposed the lies of those religious pharisees and sadducess. They hated Him for that.

    1. profile image0
      Rad Manposted 11 years agoin reply to this

      Yes, you are calling us fools. You state you believe what the bible says and the bible says we are fools. Can you at the very least be honest.

      1. soldout777 profile image60
        soldout777posted 11 years agoin reply to this

        Some atheist call believers a fool for saying they are not using  their brain in choosing God.
        I would have keep my faith to myself ,but when they post those disrespectful comments,. here we are!!!

    2. profile image0
      Deepes Mindposted 11 years agoin reply to this

      You may not be calling them fools directly, but the context  and timing during your debate in which you used the scripture carries that implication. Sometimes a Christian will quote a specific scripture to reflect their actual direct thoughts but do not want to be reported for making a personal attack

      1. soldout777 profile image60
        soldout777posted 11 years agoin reply to this

        So can we just forget what happened and go on.
        Almost everyone here is doing the same thing.
        Let us all get back to being respectful.
        Does it sound good???

        1. profile image0
          Deepes Mindposted 11 years agoin reply to this

          Always sounds good to me. I was trying to offer you some tips regarding the forums. We cannot control what others say or do, but we do have control over our own reactions and ultimately, our actions and reactions must still reflect the love of Christ even when others do not

          1. soldout777 profile image60
            soldout777posted 11 years agoin reply to this

            Ok.
            But let us also be careful not to twist the word of God just to please somebody.

            1. profile image0
              Deepes Mindposted 11 years agoin reply to this

              Of course this goes both ways. Don't twist the word of God to condemn either

              1. soldout777 profile image60
                soldout777posted 11 years agoin reply to this

                Yes it happens, when some people don't understand the love of God.  I didn't say, the atheist are fools, I wrote the word of God said!
                Anyway I'll to speak in the terms they will understand.

                But one should never make the statement that there is a way apart from Jesus(i am talking about Christians here).That is a very twisted version of the word of God.

                1. profile image0
                  Deepes Mindposted 11 years agoin reply to this

                  True, you wrote what the word of God said, but the context in which you used it and brought it up (by your admission to me) was in a manner to which you were using a scripture to take a personal shot at (by your words) anyone who does not seek to respect views. This compromises the word of God as well because you are using it in a manner in which it was not intended to be used. Using the bible scripture to convey your personal thoughts about others is as much of a no no as it is to twist the word. Sorry, but the way you used both scriptures appeared to be that you were hiding your true feelings behind his word.

                  1. soldout777 profile image60
                    soldout777posted 11 years agoin reply to this

                    Hi Deepes,
                    I thought quoting a Bible verse is not something wrong.  I was not Using the bible scripture to convey my personal thoughts about others. But I just wrote  what the Bible said. God knows why I did that,..
                    But as you say, people here will take it as an insult. I'll have to understand their problem and I will stop quoting those verse.

                    There is one thing I want to know from you
                    Could you please answer this question?

                    Jesus is the only way to God.
                    Yes or No?

    3. Zelkiiro profile image60
      Zelkiiroposted 11 years agoin reply to this

      Incorrect!

      Assuming the story can be trusted (Quick! Write a biography of a famous person who died 50 years ago using nothing but gossip and hearsay as your sources!), the Jewish religious officials turned Jesus in because he was proclaiming himself to be a future king of an independent Israel. This was a huge no-no in the Roman Empire, as the emperor is the only sovereign ruler, so they executed him as they would any other rebel.

      1. profile image0
        Rad Manposted 11 years agoin reply to this

        Hmmm, he certainly didn't become Kind of an independent Israel.

      2. soldout777 profile image60
        soldout777posted 11 years agoin reply to this

        Pilate, the Roman governor could not find fault in Him deserving death. He wanted to set Him free. But the crowd(jews) shouted crucify him!. Pilate washed His hands, and said I am not responsible for this man's blood.

        So It is the Jews and the priest who surrendered Jesus to the Romans.

        1. JMcFarland profile image71
          JMcFarlandposted 11 years agoin reply to this

          If you knew anything at all about pilate, you would understand how ridiculous the biblical account of him is.  It's one of the most unbelievable aspects of the entire story.

          1. soldout777 profile image60
            soldout777posted 11 years agoin reply to this

            What do you know about Pilate?

            1. Zelkiiro profile image60
              Zelkiiroposted 11 years agoin reply to this

              Let's turn that around. What do YOU know about Pilate?

              And here's a fun fact: The symbolic washing of hands in the presence of a man who is to be put to death was an actual ritual. A Jewish ritual.

              1. soldout777 profile image60
                soldout777posted 11 years agoin reply to this

                Well, Jesus is to be crucified so he did that ritual! Nothing wrong.

              2. profile image0
                Mklow1posted 11 years agoin reply to this

                Wait, Zelkiiro.

                Soldout has a valid question. You criticize his version of being hearsay, but where did you get your information from? What source do you have that is better than his? The Vatican?

                1. Chris Neal profile image78
                  Chris Nealposted 11 years agoin reply to this

                  Zelkiiro's assessment of Pilate's character is born out by the history books. In fact he was reprimanded. The assumption that Jesus would have been denounced as a rebel and therefor could not have been brought before Pilate is flawed, as Pilate was eager to avoid any more mistakes that could cost him his job and therefor would have worked with the Sanhedrin, especially during the Passover, to try to maintain peace.

                  And I'm an evangelical Protestant, so my sources are not the Vatican.

                  Nor, under such circumstances, would it be unthinkable for Pilate to perform a Jewish ritual for many reasons. Many Roman rulers of Syria-Palestine (as Israel was officially called under Roman rule) adopted Jewish customs.

                  1. profile image0
                    Mklow1posted 11 years agoin reply to this

                    No, my point is that why is his source better than Soldouts?

                  2. Zelkiiro profile image60
                    Zelkiiroposted 11 years agoin reply to this

                    True, it's not unthinkable--some Roman governors in that area would probably adopt native customs for any reason, political or otherwise--but with Pilate specifically, he didn't like the native peoples at all, opting to instead spend all his time around his fellow Romans inside his palace and in Cesaria, so adopting Jewish customs (particularly secretive ones performed by priests) would be extremely out-of-character for him.

                    The only thing Pilate knew about the Jews is that they, for some reason, didn't like being ruled by the Romans and often got all uppity around Passover.

        2. Zelkiiro profile image60
          Zelkiiroposted 11 years agoin reply to this

          Nope! The changing of Pilate's character came later, when the early Christians were trying to separate themselves from the Jews in the eyes of the Romans. They portrayed Pilate as a man of high morals and high reason and the Jews as bloodthirsty savages.

          But the reality, of course, is that Pilate was a ruthless governor who barely ever bothered to deal with rebels, often opting to have them executed without ever even hearing the specifics of what they've been accused of. In fact, Pilate was reprimanded by the emperor several times for his flippant behavior (along with his aggressive oppression of all of Judea) until he was removed from his office in 37 AD.

          Jesus, if he truly was brought before Pilate, would have been announced as a rebel, and Pilate would have just waved his hand and said, "Well then, what are you waiting for? Get him out of here and make an example of him!"

          1. soldout777 profile image60
            soldout777posted 11 years agoin reply to this

            You should write a history book!
            And you can leave it for the other historians to decide whether your account is true or not?

  30. Tom London profile image39
    Tom Londonposted 11 years ago

    If he's watching, then he's more of a Satan I would think.

    I wonder if he's also following this thread.

    1. Zelkiiro profile image60
      Zelkiiroposted 11 years agoin reply to this

      Hmm...that would be interesting...

      Hey, God! u mad bro??? lololol

      1. soldout777 profile image60
        soldout777posted 11 years agoin reply to this

        I'll be waiting for your history book about Pilate!

    2. A Thousand Words profile image68
      A Thousand Wordsposted 11 years agoin reply to this

      Maltheism

    3. soldout777 profile image60
      soldout777posted 11 years agoin reply to this

      It's in your dreams not in reality!

  31. Jerami profile image59
    Jeramiposted 11 years ago

    Troubled Manposted
    Yet, believers will make sure they have their opinions on that matter well heard.
    = - = - =

    Very true ...  in much the same way YOU do.   
    It is strange how you can not see how much alike YOU are to the way you depict christians.
    Just a different side of the same coin.

    1. A Troubled Man profile image59
      A Troubled Manposted 11 years agoin reply to this

      Jerami, it has been stated time and time again, please pay attention so that you need not every have to say it again.

      We would NEVER have to utter an opinion, not even a single word if it were not for believers spouting their garbage all the time, telling us what to believe and how to behave.

      1. janesix profile image61
        janesixposted 11 years agoin reply to this

        A troubled man, you would hear a lot less religious nonsense if you stopped reading about it twenty four hours a day at Hubpages forums. Really. You need a new hobby.

        1. A Troubled Man profile image59
          A Troubled Manposted 11 years agoin reply to this

          Does that mean folks like yourself will stop writing religious nonsense?

          1. janesix profile image61
            janesixposted 11 years agoin reply to this

            Why do you care what I write. It's not for you. Don't read it if you aren't interested. Is that too hard for you to understand?

            Do you have so little self-control that you have to keep doing things you don't want to do?

            1. A Troubled Man profile image59
              A Troubled Manposted 11 years agoin reply to this

              I don't and never once mentioned that I did. Don't flatter yourself. lol

              1. janesix profile image61
                janesixposted 11 years agoin reply to this

                That certainly wouldn't be flattering for me.

              2. Jerami profile image59
                Jeramiposted 11 years agoin reply to this

                You most certainly care a lot if  it means so much to you that we quit voicing our opinion. 
                We have as much of a right to voice our opinion as you do.  So why don't you quit trying to take our rights away ?

                1. A Troubled Man profile image59
                  A Troubled Manposted 11 years agoin reply to this

                  Believers are abusing their rights, they are not voicing their opinions at all because they have no opinions to voice, they are merely regurgitating nonsense from their religion like so many robots telling us what to believe and how to behave.

                  1. Jerami profile image59
                    Jeramiposted 11 years agoin reply to this

                    When you talk about believers .....   you are actually talking about .. maybe 0.05 of 1% of all Christians.
                    Just as your attitudes and opinions represent 0.05 of 1% of Atheists.

                    Then SOME of these 0.0005 % of Atheists and Theist act as though they represent ALL.
                    Who are you representing?

      2. Chris Neal profile image78
        Chris Nealposted 11 years agoin reply to this

        That's crap.

        Let me clarify that, to make that statement for the way in which you state your opinion, as often as you state your opinion, is (again) the height or irony. There's a huge difference between feeling you need to make you opinion known and attempting to shove it down the throat of whoever you're talking to. And buddy, you do.

  32. Jerami profile image59
    Jeramiposted 11 years ago

    it is you pontificating about the prophecies? IDK?
    Don't know if it is "everyone else" or just one "somebody else" ?  Maybe it was You ??   IDK
    I don't think I've been pontificating now for quite some time ?  maybe I have  ???
    ==================
    Mark knowls ......   No wonder your religion causes so many conflicts. Well - not yours - it ain't yours issit? It is them beleebers wot int gettit.
    =====
    ME    I wish you could make up your mind what it is that you are mad at me about ???  What is it exactly that I should man up about ?    If I was sorry about something I'd for sure apologize about it. 
    But if I don't know what it is I can't know if I should be sorry about it  ....   So I'm not goina say I am.

    1. Mark Knowles profile image60
      Mark Knowlesposted 11 years agoin reply to this

      I have told you many times Jerami.You prefer not to listen. Stop preaching drivel and defending your irrational belief system - I stop giving you a hard time for doing so. Simple. Goes for all the other preachers here. Stop with the preaching and people will stop telling you that it is nonsense. wink

  33. A Thousand Words profile image68
    A Thousand Wordsposted 11 years ago

    I couldn't even attempt to keep up with all the posts or "Narrow Opnions" either. It's just... too much.

  34. Peggasuse profile image88
    Peggasuseposted 11 years ago

    I think people who don't believe in anything, do so because they're just disgusted with all the false facts that have been fed to them.  I think we are all on a path to find truth, weather we realize it or not.  Sometimes, people who don't believe in anything, go through situations in their lives that lead them to truth, and then, they believe.  But even the ones who don't, end up finding the truth in the end.  When they get to that "other place" they will realize how wrong they were and that there really IS something to believe in.  I think it's all a process of evolving...

    1. A Troubled Man profile image59
      A Troubled Manposted 11 years agoin reply to this

      Or, they know that believing in things rather than understanding often leads them to be wrong.



      Yes, and that process of evolution has led many to evolve beyond believing in myths and superstitions of "other places". smile

  35. Ashleign profile image64
    Ashleignposted 11 years ago

    If god is the all knowing, and all powerful, why did he feel the need to prove a point to satan?

    Better yet, why would god make a good man suffer, just to prove that point to satan?

  36. prog47 profile image60
    prog47posted 11 years ago

    From my point of view I would say, what benevolent god would allow his children to suffer? what omnipotent god would stand idly while his children are raped and tortured? and what god that does not intervene because of our free will, performs miracles? aren't miracles intervening?

  37. JPB0756 profile image59
    JPB0756posted 11 years ago

    Evolution is a system, meaning the proof is always extant.  Actual learning MAY come from memorizing another's view and debating it as if it were your own, or maybe not.  Observe, be aware. The responsibility of life is YOUR'S ALONE;  find out thru and by YOU.  Enjoy the implementation, my friend. :-D

  38. JPB0756 profile image59
    JPB0756posted 11 years ago

    Rad;   funny, poignant reply!  Watch or read the base tactics of cultists' methods of making people a part of the cult;  may clear some of religion's postures for you.  Knowledge is power, and truth, or love, always welcome it.  Knowing your opponent educates you in many ways, beside merely improving your chances of victory, or in this case, understanding.  Ride on, cowboy.  :-)

  39. JPB0756 profile image59
    JPB0756posted 11 years ago

    Who said that that is a definite?  "Absence makes the heart grow fonder," or is it "Out of sight, out of mind?"  Foolishness to believe spurious "quotes," even if you hear them first.  "There is a time to live forever, like we are physically designed;"  wake up.

  40. lone77star profile image73
    lone77starposted 11 years ago

    Claire, God created us in His image and likeness, but He is not Homo sapiens.

    The glaring implication is that we are not Homo sapiens, either!

    The human body is, of course, the most obvious part of us. Ego is perhaps the second most obvious part. And the immortal spirit is rarely seen. It's easy to see why so many secularists, naturalists and humanists discount the spiritual half.

    But Genesis 6:3 warns us that God will not always strive with man, for he is "also" flesh. In other words, God will not stay with these Homo sapiens animals after the rescue mission is done.

    When those who decide they want to wallow in physicality for an eternity make their final say in the matter, the rescue mission will be over. Those left behind can resort to their lowest common denominator -- ego -- the heart of selfishness. This manifests itself as wailing and gnashing -- victim and perpetrator -- perpetual blood feuds. No more civilization. Perpetual suffering.

    God brought about Noah's Flood (~27,970 BC) as a pure act of love. Remember, God's children are non-physical, immortal and spiritual sources of creation. Bodily death does not harm His children. But still Jesus could weep for the death of a dear friend. Why? Because human consciousness is so important for the rebirth of the spirit. Without human continuity of consciousness, spiritual reawakening becomes essentially infinitely impossible.

    Imagine, for instance, attempting to solve your college calculus problems while asleep -- in your dreams. Imagine trying to balance your checkbook in your dreams. That's what it's like for a bodiless spirit to attempt reawakening. And when Earth is no longer habitable in a few hundred million years, Homo sapiens or anything like it will no longer exist on this planet. The souls who gave up on their true selves will be locked in a lake of fire as Earth is slowly roasted by a growing solar orb.

    Suffering is also part of our learning process. When a mass murderer who has no compassion finally dies and is reborn in a new body, they will have their karma -- they will receive the barbs they once dished out. They will experience the tragedy that gives them the opportunity to soften their heart. They may say, "Oh, God. Why are you doing this to me?" Why indeed! He that lives by the sword will die by the sword, but not necessarily in the same lifetime. See Numbers 14:18 for a bit more insight on karma and reincarnation.

    But as loving brothers and sisters -- children of God -- we will try to save even the hardened criminal from suffering. That is our love. That is our compassion.

    1. JPB0756 profile image59
      JPB0756posted 11 years agoin reply to this

      Another question; why not attempt to solve problems while you dream? Any reference to modern, lucid dreaming is not needed, as a man named Singer, who had been having difficulty with establishing a way to keep the needle threaded on an electric sewing machine, since the standard top placement was ineffective, remembered, one morning, a dream he had had during the night, of cannibals whose spears had holes in the bottom;  he recalled this abnormality and applied it to the "bobbin" of the aforementioned sewing machine, and voila!, it worked.  Consciousness is eternal.

    2. Claire Evans profile image65
      Claire Evansposted 11 years agoin reply to this

      Making us in His image is figurative.  He made us with the capacity to love like He does.



      So killing innocent people is an act of pure love? It's a pagan story and not confined to Judaism. 



      A mass murderer who doesn't repent will not be reborn into a new body.  His spirit will be tormented in hell forever.  There is no reincarnation.

  41. JPB0756 profile image59
    JPB0756posted 11 years ago

    A serious question; if we take "God created us in His image and likeness.." in any vein, it clearly says we are exactly like God. Image and likeness; we look like God and we are like God; wow, and people don't want to believe the Bible.

    1. profile image28
      puellaposted 11 years agoin reply to this

      I don't know about "exactly like God" but I know that God created man in a separate 'event' to His image according to His likeness, to be able to have: love, wisdom,justice, and power, bove all creation...as only man, so far, has the capacity of a superior mind and of knowledge and the wisdom to apply knowledge for good and kindness. That is the difference with the rest of the animal kingdom; animals may exhibit some of those capacities but do not have the power to justice or of wisdom (a mind's power over the 'biology) itself. That;s why man can exhibit what is called the 'nous' and animals do not. Nous=wit, common sense, intuition, anticipation, putting urself in the other's shoes, etc
      Reincarnation is not 'considered' a biblical topic.

      1. JPB0756 profile image59
        JPB0756posted 11 years agoin reply to this

        Nice reply, and thank you for your reply.  I did not mention reincarnation, so that's fine as it is;  I understand your perspective and your thoughts follow that chosen path well;  good focus, too.  One thing, puella, is man good?  I believe your belief on same effects the creation of all your subsequent ideas; your choice, of course, as considering yourself perfect is your choice, also. Thank you, puella.

        1. profile image28
          puellaposted 11 years agoin reply to this

          is man good? I'd like to reply from the general point of view, and from a particular point of view. When we interpret God's creation of man to His image nd likeness, we are not talking about biology but of the 'spiritual' part of man which supposedly will or should have been prone to goodness/kindness as man was given access to knowledge and granted wisdom (as a grace, particular grace indeed) to ascertain good from bad, and choose accordingly. Accordingly to what? here is where I'd introduce the particularities of each and every man
          Struggles is equivalent to being alive, but more especially, to actually live. The way to live is, to me, a very personal endeavor. As personal as each's upbringing will have perennial marks on characater forming (character is a much sought-after quality for a any man of conscience).
          So, to have character and choose good from  bad or right from wrong,  is what qualifies each man to the likeness of God, and the who did not have the upbringing chances to develop or achieve character (and the reasons vary from biological aspects of inheritance, acquired at birth, love, etc)
          to environmental (family, friends, schools, economics, education, jobs, health, and all what is greatly described in the ladder of needs to be fulfilled or met in every single man..In a way, a child who is swimming in poverty will not have a more immediate need than food and shelter, even before love...once a man, still the basic needs must be met in order to a leap to the following set of needs. which are education, etc etc, until the last step in the ladder, recognition and acceptance in the community  or professionally or etc...
          A hungry  child, or adult cannot have thirst for education or recognitio n until his body is fed and is sheltered; shelter must be physical and spiritual, jobs...somewhere along the ladder jobs would be crucial... (Dickens, Twain, portray in a super way these aspects in man's life and its consequences, as well as the hypocresy surrounding the most voiced who at the same time do not honor their speech or preachings...
          SO, any man, used to injustice, hunger, uncared for, lack of access, lack of healt, etc, has moral and physical 'excuses' to be "unkind"  (I say excuses, because even in the worst of the socio-economic conditions we have seen great examples of overcoming them and contributing to humanity)...
          Is man good?  I'd say man should not have an excuse to not to...however we can understand what's behind and figure the why's of not being good...That should prompt us to do something to contribute to a solution and not to a band aid....
          Man is a flawed creature...capable of the best and of the worst; it all depends in birth inheritance, access, and... choices, like you well say.
          I consider that we are all socially implicated in the choice and in failitating the right choice. How? we must be kind and choose right, as much as our intellect allows us to ascertain...Teacing by example works long in kids...and in others too..For example, the minute we choose to park in ay way at a parking lot, ignoring tha tothers may need to struggle unnecessarily to park along my car, is telling...it's telling a lot in such insignificant chore...The opportunities to do right are multi-faced and easy to spot and encounter; we choose, and we pay for the consequences...I'd not say 'hell' but it can be hellish indeed wink

        2. profile image28
          puellaposted 11 years agoin reply to this

          Thanks too to a gentleman. In my prior post I wanted to include this
          "the irrationality of a thing is no argument against its existence" if I am not mistaken it's a Nietzche one...who also said that Xtianity had only one practitioner and that wa Jesus...ain't it telling?

        3. youcanwin profile image49
          youcanwinposted 11 years agoin reply to this
        4. profile image28
          puellaposted 11 years agoin reply to this

          JPB, perhaps a shorter answer would have had sufficed to your post about man and goodness.... Man has the capacity of... self control, This resumes the applicability of wisdom to kindness or not. If a man of conscience (developed thru self analysis), he/she has more potential for goodness than someone with no abilities to introspection; no introspection means sort of lost as far as goals in life...drifting..no lighthouse on shore to seek...

  42. JPB0756 profile image59
    JPB0756posted 11 years ago

    Why is that figurative?  You are unable to comprehend the written word?  Clearly said, incorrectly and fearfully answered; try again, after all, God made you divine, as quoted in the Bible.

    1. Claire Evans profile image65
      Claire Evansposted 11 years agoin reply to this

      Does God have a body? No, so how can we be made physically in His image?

      1. profile image0
        Motown2Chitownposted 11 years agoin reply to this

        Out of curiosity, Claire, is it your belief that Jesus is God in the flesh?

        1. Claire Evans profile image65
          Claire Evansposted 11 years agoin reply to this

          Yes.

          1. JMcFarland profile image71
            JMcFarlandposted 11 years agoin reply to this

            so, then, at least PART of god has a body, does he not?

            1. youcanwin profile image49
              youcanwinposted 11 years agoin reply to this

              God is spirit.
              But an hour is coming, and now is, when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth; for such people the Father seeks to be His worshipers. 24"God is spirit, and those who worship Him must worship in spirit and truth." 25The woman said to Him, "I know that Messiah is coming (He who is called Christ); when that One comes, He will declare all things to us

              1. profile image0
                Rad Manposted 11 years agoin reply to this

                Boy, your almighty God sure does need to be worshiped. Some may see that as a character flaw?

                1. profile image28
                  puellaposted 11 years agoin reply to this

                  nice try wink but flawed indeed...according to the Bible though

                  1. profile image0
                    Rad Manposted 11 years agoin reply to this

                    How is it flawed to think that someone needing constant worship is narcissistic?

              2. JMcFarland profile image71
                JMcFarlandposted 11 years agoin reply to this

                why exactly do you think it is that the god you worship so freely desires everyone to fall down and worship it.  That would be considered insecurity for a human being.  Ever have a coworker who doesn't want anything more than for you to tell them how awesome they are constantly?  Why would anyone choose to willingly worship such a being with such a superiority/inferiority complex that it would rather be worshiped than do something helpful.

                1. wilderness profile image75
                  wildernessposted 11 years agoin reply to this

                  Because so many people seem to have an innate need to worship someone/something?

                  One has only to look at our sports/entertainment people to see this; even the worst scum always seems to have a following of "worshipers".  Although "hero worship" is not in the same class as worship of a god it isn't that far away from it, either.

            2. Claire Evans profile image65
              Claire Evansposted 11 years agoin reply to this

              The trinity is made of Jesus, God and the Holy Spirit.  So although God and Jesus are one in the Holy Spirit, they were separated by Jesus being in the flesh and God a spirit.

              1. profile image0
                jonnycomelatelyposted 11 years agoin reply to this

                Please, please, tell me how all of that makes any practical difference to the way I live in and enjoy this world.  It will remain a debatable concept for as long as humans live.  No one will ever be able to prove it one way or the other, only believe what each of us wants to believe.

                1. Claire Evans profile image65
                  Claire Evansposted 11 years agoin reply to this

                  The one thing about knowing the truth of Jesus is that you cannot be happy in this life.  There is too much suffering.  Sure, we can have joyful moments and pleasure but they are not lasting.

                  1. profile image0
                    Rad Manposted 11 years agoin reply to this

                    The "truth" of Jesus makes you miserable?

                  2. profile image0
                    Deepes Mindposted 11 years agoin reply to this

                    I must have missed that in my bible. Can you point me to those scriptures?

                  3. profile image0
                    jonnycomelatelyposted 11 years agoin reply to this

                    So that Jesus in your mind tells you there is no hope unless you "believe" .....
                    And your mind is so negative in your outlook on this world that you personally can make no practical difference to building a better one?

          2. profile image28
            puellaposted 11 years agoin reply to this

            Incarnation was purposeful: to reach man and to die (spirit does not die): to be able to die in the Cross so as to fulfill the Prophecies of Redemption.
            as a man, Jesus was not God (in flesh and body), but whenever He had (and He did this most of times away from public and asking the receivers of His Mercy to not to speak about the miracles), whenever He had to, by mercy, perform a miracle He invoked God Father, to help Him do it or when He, in the Cross, out of pain and suffering, claimed to His Father "why have you forsaken me"...that was His man/flesh nature not HIs God's nature...

  43. profile image0
    JimMilesposted 11 years ago

    Much has been written on this topic, for many centuries running. There is, happily, a lively conversation of sorts happening on this very topic, between atheists and theists. A good starting point to enter this conversation would be http://debunkingchristianity.blogspot.c … and%20Evil wherein you can find links to many of the popular current theists writing their research on this, with the rebuttals of arguably the best atheist apologist currently blogging out there, John W. Loftus.

  44. JPB0756 profile image59
    JPB0756posted 11 years ago

    puella, ty for your in-depth and clearly written response.  As I interpret your explanation,  man may be able to remain in a state of grace by self-control, introspection et al.; to me, that is merely maturing, and man is good and will do same without training or prompt.  The idea of man "needing" ANYTHING to be loved by his creator indicates manipulation, not love.  Love is without fear, so ensuring it is redundant.  See "shibumi," a Japanese word meaning "effortless perfection;"  likeness and image, my friend puella.  You are well-versed, a pleasure to interact with you.  :-D

    1. profile image28
      puellaposted 11 years agoin reply to this

      Thanks!
      In the tao, there is also a principle for actions, it’s called the “no-action reaction” by which we keep ourselves ‘cool’ wink when facing harsh times, especially, interpersonal harsh times; which often times is equivalent to ‘turn the other cheek” or is it not?
      But, JPB, I have a problem with the ‘approach’ way too common to not make me think that it’s not a credo wink as well… I repeat, I have a problem when of pointing to the wrong reasons behind man’s actions (ignoring, genuinely or not, man’s nature)
      In the end, to me, it’s all a matter of conscience, regardless of credos. And if someone, as aXtian, does not honor the credo, then yes there is failures to the faith but it is  not because of the faith itself…Just the same that we see and appreciate grandiosity in men of no credos at all…their grandiosity as beings has nothing to do with their faith, which does not have to be a credo, but we all certainly do have cherished some chore beliefs which, written or not, organized globally or not, we do believe in them and practice them and not to would mean total inaccomplishment.
      What bothers me is the ‘superiority’ of many when referring to a xtianity practice…as if the laws of man are being observed by all! NO! one thousand times no! failures to observe rules is not a Xtian stuff: it’s a man’s stuff. Self control or its lack based on a general wisdom of kindness. There is self control to do evil too wink Check history since before Neanderthals.
      I believe that pain and suffering is cosubstantial to life., regardless of faith. Enduring pain and suffering do make character. If on top, we hope that by enduring it with the help  of a god, why does that make it lesser the enduring? NO one thousand times again. The grace or disgrace to endure pain and suffering is crucial to conscience and happiness.
      Just like growing thru the years from childhood to manship is physically-biologically painful (hence the ‘growing pains’ saying), so it is to grow (mature) in character. Oriental thought does make it principal to sacrifice the body (abstinences) of many kinds to make it possible to advance to higher spiritual states.
      Whether oriental or not, these principles apply to all mankind. What is valuable in material or in spiritual realms do come to a price that concious man is willing to pay or live thru to achieve.
      Whatever is achieved without that is or can be worthless.

      1. JPB0756 profile image59
        JPB0756posted 11 years agoin reply to this

        Is man good?  Eloquent reply, but I've failed to divine that answer, puella.

        1. profile image28
          puellaposted 11 years agoin reply to this

          Two acknowledged reasons...Two acknowledged reasons: text redundant and unnecessary...

          Shibusa…the good taste/exquisite quality that is subtle but impressive without the noise that ‘pretension’ introduces…It comes to mind a proverb “Nothing is so strong as gentleness and nothing is so gentle as real strength”…
          Contrary to the notion that beauty is in the eye of the beholder, shibusa makes every observer an artist observing art...

          1. profile image28
            puellaposted 11 years agoin reply to this

            JPB! Thanks l)

            I think the dialogues of Captain Kirk and Mr Spock were way more down to earth and sublime...In my life, I have read over and over some of William Shakespeare acute depiction of human nature...he was really something!
            Here I copied for you this that refers to a much sought-after rat...yikesf lately interest!
            I wonder if the meaning will be, again miss or mis taken...I wonder and really Spock is badly needed...apparently 'coolness' is pre-req for some pretending exactly coolness but...alas, lacking

            "    Hamlet:
                "How now? A rat? Dead, for a ducat, dead!"

            Hamlet slays Polonius, whom he mistakes for the King hiding behind the arras in Gertrude's room. Earlier, the King, realizing that Hamlet has deduced that it was he who killed his father, sent Polonius to Gertrude's chamber. Hamlet comes storming down the hall screaming "mother, mother, mother!" Polonius hides behind the wall hanging, intending to spy on the conversation and report back to the King. The queen is terrified that Hamlet intends to murder her, however, and so cries out for help. Foolishly, Polonius also cries for help, and Hamlet, thinking the King has followed him into the chamber, thrusts his sword into the drapery and kills Polonius. In the aftermath of this mistaken murder, Hamlet seems strangely untouched by his own deed, which argues for the authenticity of his madness"

            The ducat here is just so unbelievably  minor; yet, there is pure rat here a perfect humanist says...and another one says to be passed on because of factory defective reasons wink
            In the Bible, I never read of sacrificing a rat (maybe because a rat is of the lowest appreciation indeed in the man's view)...although some studies show rats do exhibit loyalty among rats!!!! contrary to mnn...among men).. Sacrifice has a sacred meaning and it's considered in Xtianity a way to gain character and purification...( willings, wantings, expectations, self-indulgence, sleep, food intake, etc)  Those seeking to sacrifice did it for any of two reasons: to please God or to burn his/her iniquity...which one here?

            1. profile image28
              puellaposted 11 years agoin reply to this

              JPB, ATW, Deepes, the places we have been put to go…
              Ode to any rodent, even if small and pure…(using Wikipedia materials) and my own oneness  (or uniqueness?  yes, indeed!
              (Purity (quantum mechanics), a measure of correlation between a system and its environment; also: Purity in Buddhism, a spiritual purity of character or essence; also: Purity, the colorfulness of a light source; also: last but not least: Purity is the absence of impurity or contaminants in a substance. The term also applies to the absence of vice in human character.
              Given that rats are known for high intelligence, ingenuity, aggressiveness, and adaptability, their ‘psychology’ runs ‘similar’ to man, only that I would want to ask “are they all created equal”?
              The common species are opportunistic survivors and often live with and near humans; therefore, they are known as comensals
              On the Isle of Man (a dependency of the British Crown)  there is a taboo against the word "rat".
              When it comes to conducting tests related to intelligence, learning, and drug abuse, rats are a popular choice due to their high intelligence, ingenuity, aggressiveness, and adaptability. Their psychology, in many ways, seems to be similar to humans. Selfish helpfulness —those willing to help for a price— has also been attributed to fictional rat
              1980 French film, illustrates Henri Laborit's theories on evolutionary psychology and human behaviors by using short sequences in the storyline showing lab rat experiments.
              The rat (sometimes referred to as a mouse) is the first of the twelve animals of the Chinese zodiac. People born in this year are expected to possess qualities associated with rats, including creativity, intelligence, honesty, generosity, ambition, a quick temper and wastefulness. People born in a year of the rat are said to get along well with "monkeys" and "dragons", and to get along poorly with "horses".
              European associations with the rat are generally negative. For instance, "Rats!" is used as a substitute for various vulgar interjections in the English language. These associations do not draw, per se, from any biological or behavioral trait of the rat, but possibly from the association of rats (and fleas) with the 14th-century medieval plague called the Black Death. Rats are seen as vicious, unclean, parasitic animals that steal food and spread disease. However, some people in European cultures keep rats as pets and conversely find them to be tame, clean, intelligent, and playful.
              Rats are often used in scientific experiments; animal rights activists allege the treatment of rats in this context is cruel. The term "lab rat" is used, typically in a self-effacing manner, to describe a person whose job function requires them to spend a majority of their work time engaged in bench-level research (such as postgraduate students in the sciences).
              A 2007 study found rats to possess metacognition, a mental ability previously only documented in humans and some primates.[
              Because of the ability to learn, rats were early on investigated to see whether they may exhibit general intelligence, expressed by the presence of a g factor, like larger or more complex animals. A 1929 study did not find a g factor,  nor did a 1990 work; but a 1935 study did:
              Robert Thorndike, for example, provided strong evidence for g in rats by the use of a variety of tests such as mazes, problem-solving tasks, and simple avoidance conditioning (Thorndike 1935). Performances tended to correlate across tasks, with stronger associations found between mazes and problem-solving than with simple avoidance tasks. Thorndike (1935) also reviewed a dozen earlier studies which also suggested that the highest correlations are found between more complex problem-solving tasks. However, it should be noted that there were other contemporary studies that found split or near zero-order correlation matrices for other populations of rats across cognitive batteries (see Royce 1950)
              A 2011 controlled study found that rats are actively prosocial. They demonstrate altruistic behaviour to other rats in experiments, including freeing them from cages. When presented with readily available chocolate chips, test subjects would first free the caged rat, and then share the food. All female rats in the study displayed this behaviour, while 30% of the males did not.
              Reflections:
              a)    (Purity (quantum mechanics), a measure of correlation between a system and its environment; also: Purity in Buddhism, a spiritual purity of character or essence; also: Purity, the colorfulness of a light source; also: last but not least: Purity is the absence of impurity or contaminants in a substance. The term also applies to the absence of vice in human character.
              b)    Purity  Absence of vice in human character: feel free to throw the first stone, make sure you use the ‘right’ arm (or motif/reason)
              c)    Matter-of-factness: they came looooong time ago and sided by humans as ‘commensals”
              d)    Even when there is negative/peyorative use when assigned to a person, facts e it may not be as ‘negative’ if of purity and fairness we are talking so ‘openly’ (or should I correct to ‘narrowly?”
              e)    Intelligence and ingenuity may not prove to be a working match, however…they can be multidimensional treats…
              f)    Metacognition (seen in humans) means: Metacognition is defined as "cognition about cognition", or "knowing about knowing."[1] It can take many forms; it includes knowledge about when and how to use particular strategies for learning or for problem solving.There are generally two components of metacognition: knowledge about cognition, and regulation of cognition.
              Metamemory, defined as knowing about memory and mnemonic strategies, is an especially important form of metacognition. Differences in metacognitive processing across cultures have not been widely studied, but could provide better outcomes in cross-cultural learning between teachers and students
              Some evolutionary psychologists hypothesize that metacognition is used as a survival tool, which would make metacognition the same across cultures. Writings on metacognition can be traced back at least as far as De Anima and the Parva Naturalia of the Greek philosopher Aristotle.
              g)    Prosocial: Prosocial behavior, or "voluntary behavior intended to benefit another", consists of actions which "benefit other people or society as a whole, “such as helping, sharing, donating, co-operating, and volunteering." These actions may be motivated by empathy and by concern about the welfare and rights of others, as well as for egoistic or practical concerns. Evidence suggests that prosociality is central to the well-being of social groups across a range of scales. Empathy is a strong motive in eliciting prosocial behavior, and has deep evolutionary roots.      Prosocial behavior fosters positive traits that are beneficial for children and society. It may be motivated both by altruism and by self-interest, for reasons of immediate benefit or future reciprocity. Evolutionary psychologists use theories such as kin-selection theory and inclusive fitness as an explanation for why prosocial behavioral tendencies are passed down generationally, according to the evolutionary fitness displayed by those who engaged in prosocial acts. Encouraging prosocial behavior may also require decreasing or eliminating undesirable social behaviors.   Although the term "prosocial behavior" is often associated with developing desirable traits in children, the literature on the topic has grown since the late 1980s to include adult behaviors as well
              In my regards, I am nothing special, in fact I am a bit of a bore, if I say a joke, you probably heard it before, but I have a talent, a wonderful thing, ‘cause everyone listens when I start to sing, , I’m so grateful and proud, so I want to sing it loud...Thank you for the music.  (Abba dixit, 1979) I want also to say that  ‘prosocial’ is not the most common denominator factor here, but actually, the least common one, and also, a divisive factor…it lacks, in some very particular ones, the after-taste of bitterness  usually a known and commonly present in unhealthy ego.
              And a bit more of ‘salt’ (as preserver and purifying agent wink  Shakespeare’s The Tempest analysis for the ‘soul’ notion
              The Tempest can be interpreted as Shakespeare's last treatise on the human soul, in particular the Renaissance conception of the tripartite soul divided into vegetative, sensitive, and rational spheres, as described in both Platonic and some Christian Philosophy (and later in Freud's id, ego and super ego) which was first linked to The Tempest in the 1956 screenplay for Forbidden Planet by Cyril Hume, Irving Block, and Allen Adler, which presents us with 'monsters from the Id', although the theory is dismissed as 'obsolete' in that imagined future, and later and more scholarly by James E Phillips in 1964.  Prospero is exiled to an island with a symbol of his baser, 'vegetative' nature – Caliban – and his higher, 'sensitive' or supernatural side – Ariel. Some productions have seen the same actor play all three roles, making them symbols of the conflict within a fully actualised or awakened Prospero – that between crude selfish physicality and a higher, mystical side. For as long as Prospero is battling with these qualities and lost in books, he is banished from Milan. As the play finds its conclusion, he is both able to accept his base, brutal nature ("this thing of darkness I acknowledge mine" he says when taking responsibility for Caliban) while letting go of his connection with higher, powerful forces ("then to the elements be free, and fare thou well" he says, setting Ariel free). Abandoning magic and acknowledging the brutal potential of his nature, he is allowed to return to his rightful place as Duke, subject to agreement from the audience: "as you from crimes would pardon'd be, let your indulgence set me free."
              Please read a bit more “Gonzalo's description of his ideal society  thematically and verbally echoes Montaigne's essay Of the Canibales, translated into English in a version published by John Florio in 1603. Montaigne praises the society of the Caribbean natives: "It is a nation ... that hath no kinde of traffike, no knowledge of Letters, no intelligence of numbers, no name of magistrate, nor of politike superioritie; no use of service, of riches, or of poverty; no contracts, no successions, no dividences, no occupation but idle; no respect of kinred, but common, no apparrell but natural, no manuring of lands, no use of wine, corne, or mettle. The very words that import lying, falsehood, treason, dissimulation, covetousnes, envie, detraction, and pardon, were never heard of amongst them. In addition, much of Prospero's renunciative speech  is taken word-for-word from a speech by Medea in Ovid's poem Metamorphoses.””

              1. profile image28
                puellaposted 11 years agoin reply to this

                I still wonder…the places we have gone in search of the roots of suffering…to offer a different light other than God's-existence-related...

                Pristine does not mean ‘spotlessly clean’, rather, it refers to original, ancient, primitive. It’s a term usable by those who like attractive novelties even when they seem to be novelties…conferring the ‘novelty’ the quality of ‘pristine’ when it is not ancient, original or primitive wink (King’s English)
                The pain is eased if only we knew the correct manner of using the prepositions
                We can’t have it both ways without the intrinsic self-infliction of suffering: “the inclination to run with the liberal hare and hunt with the conservative hounds” when pretending to be pristine and pretending  to apply the preposition correctly.
                It’s either  ‘small-town’ values or “theatrical” prepositional usage…Pristineness would, ‘clarify’ that we would not need to place the prepositions on God…but somewhere else, namely?

                1. profile image0
                  jonnycomelatelyposted 11 years agoin reply to this

                  Phew!!!   I am left with a dangling preposition, what!  Not being born in a year of the Rat, but in a year of the Snake, would leave me somewhat devious.  A Purely Devious Rat, that is.
                  Good morning Puella.

  45. A Thousand Words profile image68
    A Thousand Wordsposted 11 years ago

    Oh, the places this thread has gone...
    LoL
    roll

    1. profile image0
      Deepes Mindposted 11 years agoin reply to this

      And the places it still could yet go... LOL

  46. JPB0756 profile image59
    JPB0756posted 11 years ago

    puella, another fine response.  Your caring nature is evident, as is your faith!  Faith, be it in someone or in just "knowing," one way or the other...or even a third, fourth or fifth choice!... allows our peace of mind, as you put it, to grow and stay.  Insightful, too, puella.  :-D

    1. profile image28
      puellaposted 11 years agoin reply to this

      Thanks JPB! smile
      I believe in staying up even when the worst ( and the 'worst' can be general and can be particular.. in the sense tht each will feel it in certain ways...These ways may mark us forever...but again...forever seems too long to wait BUT it is limited....at the most to a life of someone...and then? nobody will remember, at least, not with pain...maybe with nostalgia...Memories will not fade...Life can be a hardship for those who choose to do the Hari Krishna on themselves....Greeks had a school of thoght and of living called "the stoics"...and I think Xtianity does help in the same way that the stoics...We enjoy and we suffer with grace and dignity...that's bottom line, With grace means without exxagerations, frugally, discretely,. etc and always keeping up standing and our face up..That's how I grew watching the big family of ours...And can anbody think that we were always 'happy'? no!!! we did have problems of different types/nature, like every family in every neighborhood on earth!   If something, the notion, true or not, of an afterlife helps in diminishing the pain...At least for us who stay here...We do not know what's in the other end...We believe...some don't...Right or wrong...there is not too long to know...Life goes so quickly and one day, too soon, one finds oneself cherishing for some more of the past...Nope, not possible...what do we do? we honor those around of us depending on us and project as much as possible onto others whatever we can offer...an advice, a few dimes, a joke, listening to their misery, etc...That's all we can do...and must do...To quarrel the way it is done here is really, sometimes, diminishing...especially for what I read of wrong or mere interpretations of what others have to say...If we here can be this ferocious for what it's written, imagine being neighbors!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

    2. profile image28
      puellaposted 11 years agoin reply to this

      Greetings JPB...Please allow me to post my last here with you and thru you; it's been quite interesting...I will read you in your hubs...TY for your serene approach to all of us here...it's lesson-wise...

      @Mark:” Well - I just define Christianity by what is in the bible. The only way it can possibly be a palatable belief system is if you reject almost everything in the bible. Which is I gather what you have done. We tend to call those people atheists.”
      @puella:Mark, if it is not to demanding, in which part of the Bible did you read about Christianity?  Even if you do not answer, I know that you have an incomplete answer wink You said it, livers are over rated
      @Mark:”I guess what I don't understand is why you choose to validate all those hell-believers - e.g. - the Catholics - by claiming kinship with them and then rejecting almost everything they believe”
      @puella: And what I don’t understand is why do you feel entitled to invalidate anybody anything anytime anywhere…and at the same time you skip your ack of alienation…Definition, from wiki,: alienation=Alienation is essentially a sociological concept developed by several classical and contemporary theorists [and is "a condition in social relationships reflected by a low degree of integration or common values and a high degree of distance or isolation between individuals, or between an individual and a group of people in a community or work environment."[ The concept has many discipline-specific uses, and can refer both to a personal psychological state (subjectively) and to a type of social relationship

      @Mark:”But still - if everyone goes to heaven, what use your religion? You will be hanging out with the child murderers and rapists I guess. Weird. Heaven is a reward/punishment sort of thing. Or are you redefining "heaven" to mean something else other than the accepted definition? Because I cannot think of a worse punishment than conscious eternity. *shudders*Livers are over-rated.  ” 
      @puella:  If it is not too much, can you tell us what is the accepted definition of heaven?...I have no doubt…livers are over-rated!!and minds too!
      @Mark:It's an interesting conundrum, because one of the first things they do is disown all the other Christians while at the same time labeling themselves as a group. Even Melissa here. Still - if I was a Christian - I would disown most of the rest of them.   (Mark, ‘if I were’)
      @puella: Mark, do you feel you have the liberty to say of what you understand little but others do not?...!!!
      @Mark: "Hey! I am a Christian. There are 2.1 billion of us Christians, making it the biggest religion ever! But - 2,099,999,999 of them are not real Christians."  ”
      @puella: are you saying that you know for a fact that 2,099,999,999 of Xtians (that’s really daring)  are not real Xtians?...Ghee, why we’d  need God after all, we have Mark!!!
      @Melissa:” There are lots of interpretations of the Bible Mark. I just find it curious that you and the fundamentalists are so closely aligned in your interpretations. That seems to indicate a similarity in thought process.”
      @puella:    I find this ‘alignment” of the process of thought  (that Melissa talks about) fairly similar to that of what some schools of thought (it’d be better to call them “of not thought”)  do to their students with the goal to “brainwash/alienation” for easiness of management and manipulation……It’s pretty much the same things atheists say of…Xtians!!! Ain’t  it something?
      @ATM:” Or, would it not be so much a thought process as it is the reading of the words printed in the Bible?”  no wonder!... A proverb in Italian culture goes “Each thief judges the other thief by his beliefs and conditions”…Ain’t something to ponder? Talking of why we know?
      @JCL:”I feel that we are free to cherry pick from the bible if we want to..... the fundamentalists do; we atheists do; the catholics do; the WBC do.  What is the problem?  Each of is free to choose.” ….   @puella: JCL,is that bad or good? With you, I can never tell…Meaning?
      @ATM:”Yes, they are free to choose, the problem is in all the fights they start over who has the correct interpretation. If they all just agreed the Bible was a book of myths and superstitions, everyone would get along.”…   
      @puella:There you go, ATM, you at this point, are not only interpreting for the sake of interpreting and extract some valuable truth from it, because to begin with, you consider all the book to be a fat lie…! So why does it bother you or interest you to have a discussion on something you have already decided is a lie…only to …vent? Because, in spite of your valuable opinion of it being a fake and a lie, there are some who do not agree and you MUST make the point to them? Is that ‘allowing” or “respecting” or anything close to a sincere desire to learn from a debate? Or just to…bugger them Xtians off?...I do not wonder here wink OH OH I know, you love’m and wish to redeem’m
      @ATM:” Oh - I don't "interpret it," I just read what it says. I leave the interpretation to the apologists.” @puella: Now that’s a fact!

      @puella: I took the liberty and bother to go over the last posts, more for my own sake, to confirm my theories…and I have…My conclusions are: atheists still do not acknowledge that they profess a faith…although it’s all evident with the school of thought so well harmonized and hammer-like…In their case, like the Simon’s song “I rather be a hammer than a nail”
      Also, that many times what some say here, even in opposite viewpoints, still do share a lot of common grounds and leaps of faith…and that’s perhaps the most wonderful of it all here; then we have the distracters (are Xtians afraid of being Xtians? winkwink well, I’d say that the ‘fear’ is lesser [saying nope would mean that Xtians consider themselves perfect practitioners and that would be a fat lie]! And precisely we, Xtians, know that we are truly imperfect just because we know we are deliciously humans!!)  than the fear atheists feel to be considered Xtians!! There JCL you have got your first ‘nuanced and toned and only from me” post! Guys, it’s been a pleasurable thingie to read some of you; it’s been surprisingly redundant to read others…and yes, ATM’s posts had me laugh heartedly sometimes; Rad, thanks for some height and some not-obvious commonalities…Mark, please do something about your reading abilities…your opinions betray them (in my opinion not so humble)…Remember, life is good, it’s all good, and in the end, when suffering is behind, learn from the past and wait for the next bout  readily and preperaded to cope more graciously…Fr those with kids, do the effort to teach the permanent threat of disappointment… by small steps at the time; when grown ups, those memories will be rewarded by good character and kindness, if you have managed to control the context of the disappointment and not the real-world… which is the utmost of the legacies a parent can leave to children…
      Do not despair because you do not see God readily…trust Him. For those who do not believe,the only substitute is a loving relationship, a real friend, and …for all, no matter the faith, charity begins at home and the effects have multiplying avenues…to outreach.

      1. profile image0
        jonnycomelatelyposted 11 years agoin reply to this

        puella, was that an epitaph, an orbituary or just another "final" appearance?  smile

        1. profile image28
          puellaposted 11 years agoin reply to this

          JCL! epitaph? R U kidding? "orbituary" ...frankly I cannot "interpret" that word...it's not defined anywhere smile and I do as I read others do smilesmile So I guess is then ...a RE of a final appearance You said hello and I say goodbye...

      2. JPB0756 profile image59
        JPB0756posted 11 years agoin reply to this

        Thank you very much, puella; it has been a pleasure to follow your forays into the pit of argument, sometimes just because others choose discord over reason, but always due to the truth of your love.  It shines, as u do, puella; u brought out the best in each participant!  You know Love IS. Peace, my fine friend. :-D

        1. profile image28
          puellaposted 11 years agoin reply to this

          JPB, greetings... with a few minutes off of a super time-consuming project I a involved, I had these few secs to direct you to read the latest of the Pope...a total different Pope I see  and who knows...here is the link:
          http://takingnote.blogs.nytimes.com/201 … p&_r=0

          The Pope speaks of freshness and fragrance of the Gospel...
          Ok...I am off wink but not forgetting the edifying contributors of this forum of which you happen to lead...Thanks...Keep up and happy, as much as you can procure, maintain and control..the rest is not up to us...

          1. JPB0756 profile image59
            JPB0756posted 11 years agoin reply to this

            puella!!  I am soo happy that you decided to give me that link and for all that you are and your truth of love.  Great link, too; nice to see Catholics, my baptism religious choice..lol, using that same skill that rats have: being "prosocial."  I'll refrain from usurping your marvelously miraculous eloquence and thank you for being impeccable. Just "wow,"  puella, wow.

            1. profile image28
              puellaposted 11 years agoin reply to this

              Prosocial… meaningful and rightly interpreted JPB …
              The prosocial attribute could mean so much in limiting suffering around us; if rats have a natural disposition to free those fellow rats caged before  they, all rats, can enjoy the chocolate chips LOL and so, not only sharing a treat but freeing the caged ones… when, here, in the ‘mean’ time (mean as in expected-value by arithmetic or geometric or harmonic or distributed unbiasedly statistical mean which is roughly the ‘expected/average value of the majority”… LOL …OR as in “to have as its sense or signification; signify”…OR as in “unaccommodating or selfish” )  we are ‘frustrated’ about interpretations that we do not interpret at their minimum level either…so we lose the opportunities by, like dogs, marking territories, or like pretending to outshine the sun…by assigning to the expected climate the unmatching reality of the weather (you know, climate is expected but weather is what we get…someone said that, I think Twain)…
              So the Pope is trying, in my interpretation, to get back to tracks a much derailed whether by accident (?) of by intention (:-<   body of church whereas the leadership has been autistic or obviously detached from the actual whether, to concede the benefits of the doubt and not be judgemental, after all, they are also humans…
              However, it takes a great leap of ignoring-the-facts to easily blame any god for such a human behavior…Regardless of what can or will or might happen after death (no wiki for fact about that LOL), we have this one experience for a fact to make of it the most and the best: if there is a God (I believe that) or of there is not, in what does it change our duties as ‘prosocials, and etc etc etc??
              Know Thyself!!! Is really a good and valuable advice from old gals

  47. JPB0756 profile image59
    JPB0756posted 11 years ago

    Fear is religion's ONLY tool, regardless of the guise of "love;"  you are correct, Deepes, do it for goodness' sake. Nicely put!

  48. HattieMattieMae profile image59
    HattieMattieMaeposted 11 years ago

    just for you to ask to question troubleman!

  49. Brittany Alexis W profile image62
    Brittany Alexis Wposted 11 years ago

    Suffering means that a LOVING god doesn't exist, really. Why would a loving god let his children starve to death, be raped, killed, etc... Religious people claim it's because their god works in mysterious ways, and to us it sounds like you are defending a psychopath.

    1. profile image28
      puellaposted 11 years agoin reply to this

      I think that the thread gets broken and when that, then the posts of those who say that suffering is a demonstration, of the sorts, that God does not exist. Then, like my ol' math prof in college used to say, the proof of the opposite, may be then, that because there is happiness, or man can enjoy happiness, then God exists winkwink The only little thingie is that all things come with a sorta duality attached...and so, we can appreciate happiness 'cause there is suffering; on the other hand, not the tragedies of the world are the only suffering; a baby suffers at birth, a mom suffers pain, a lot! f=giving birth, and love is painful or can be painful and deceiving, so...other than dissecating this formula as inconsistent, what else can we say...about suffering...We could say that life with no suffering is life? wrong; that only happy life is right? I wonder...My ol' prof of philosophy in college, used to say that if we do not suffer we cannot enjoy happiness, and also, that all suffering has a common element: attachment; also, he/she who causes suffering unto others, does also suffer, unless some mental defect is on, and if someone with a mental defect causes suffering, does that mean that God is unattentive? of that He is not OHH then  Is He because I am happy> I can be happy, Thanks God? I wonder?

 
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