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Why do atheists say God doesn't exist because there is suffering?

  1. Claire Evans profile image90
    Claire Evansposted 4 years ago

    That's the typical Sam Harris argument.  How does suffering negate God's existence? Maybe He's just watching.  It doesn't mean He doesn't exist and for anyone to bring up suffering as proof of no God is indication of a logical fallacy.

    1. wilderness profile image94
      wildernessposted 4 years ago in reply to this

      I find that to be a fallacious argument as well.  Implicit in the statement is that God doesn't like to see people suffer, that He could stop it but doesn't, that he knows it is there (is watching) as well as other inferences.  None of which we know to be true.

      One could, however, say that the God described by most Christians (omniscient, omnipotent, all loving, etc.) does not exist.  By human standards those characteristics do not equate with a god that allows massive suffering, and that "by human standards" makes the argument somewhat weak, but it is still valid to a point.

      1. Claire Evans profile image90
        Claire Evansposted 4 years ago in reply to this

        How do you think God should stop suffering? Destroy Satan when the world has chosen him to be their leader? Why would Jesus worship God when He allowed Himself to suffer?  The spiritual refinement that comes out of suffering is amazing if one allows themselves to grow for the better.

        1. profile image0
          riddle666posted 4 years ago in reply to this

          Why, the omnipotent god is not potent enough? He needs the world's consent?

          1. Claire Evans profile image90
            Claire Evansposted 4 years ago in reply to this

            He cares about what we want.  Do you want to be forced to worship God?

            1. profile image0
              riddle666posted 4 years ago in reply to this

              Why god didn't kill Satan is the question.

              1. Claire Evans profile image90
                Claire Evansposted 4 years ago in reply to this

                You can't kill a spirit.  I ask you again, do you want to be forced to worship God?Much of what we have in life are from Satan.

                1. profile image0
                  riddle666posted 4 years ago in reply to this

                  Yes, one cannot kill that which do not exist.

                  What has satan got to do with worship of god.

                  Then pray and thank satan instead of god, why being ungrateful?

                  1. Claire Evans profile image90
                    Claire Evansposted 4 years ago in reply to this

                    Irony is you associate yourself with his number.






                    If you don't want Satan to thrive you must obey God all the time.  Do you want to be forced to obey Him? Nobody can possibly obey God all the time






                    Should I thank Satan for evil?  Most things in this life are evil.  Satan isn't responsible for beautiful things in life but evil is far more prevalent.

                2. gabgirl12 profile image77
                  gabgirl12posted 4 years ago in reply to this

                  Yes WHY DIDNT GOT KILL SATAN? Don't avoid the question as if wasn't irrelevant! If there is nothing impossible for 'god' why didn't he obliterate Satan? Does it stand to reason that one perfect creates another perfect being just so that perfect being 'sins' near the throne? And then creating a planet placing that now 'imperfect' being with 'lesser but perfect beings' tempting them to sin considering it never originated from them.  Now condemning all those perfect beings to hell.

                  This is monotheistic religion in a nutshell: The Illusion of Free Will

                  If a man holds a gun to your head and asks you whether or not you want him to pull the trigger , how much freedom of choice do you have? So if a religion tells you that eternal damnation awaits you for not adhering , how much free will do they offer?

                  There is no free will. All this was man made. All these pastors tripping into giving your money because you 'owe' a deity you can't see, hear, smell or touch. They condemn you and if you adhere they preach about a god of love and they help you. If you don't they use their authority and point out what according to their biblical standard is a sin constantly. They don't LEAVE you alone. This is terrorism. On top of that they take advantage of your vulnerabilities and your weaknesses just to get you in their congregation saying that at some point, you'll hit the lottery and god will give you all your hopes and dreams like a genie if you obey?

                  NO!, you know what? because its all BS meant to try and control people's minds and thoughts. The mind of Christ is the mind of your pastor and/or minister, and I won't be tricked into giving my life up for something that isnt real just because you or anyone else who thinks they have some kind of spiritual authority says so.

                  Creation itself is a complete waste of time and all for what, so a deity can make itself great? That's a serious ego complex and considering the creative and imaginative nature of 'humanity', yeah he did invent a 'god' to impress his territorial instincts on others. .

                  1. jonnycomelately profile image85
                    jonnycomelatelyposted 4 years ago in reply to this

                    A sort of Amway presenter with angel's wings? wink

                    After a good night's sleep, good morning everyone.

                  2. Claire Evans profile image90
                    Claire Evansposted 4 years ago in reply to this

                    Because both Satan and God share power on earth, Satan by far having the most.  Where in the Bible does it say that so-called perfect being sinned near the throne? Both Satan and God are responsible for the universe.  Everything is made of opposites like an atom.  God and Satan are opposites.



                    If a man holds a gun to your head and asks you whether or not you want him to pull the trigger , how much freedom of choice do you have? So if a religion tells you that eternal damnation awaits you for not adhering , how much free will do they offer?

                    Of course someone is going to say they don't want to be shot.  They could make the choice to say nothing, though, or call his bluff and say, "Go for it."  or attempt to run away. Saying they don't want to be shot is not the only option they have. 

                    One has free will whether to commit evil or not.  Those who are unrepentant and know what they are doing choose to keep their sin which God cannot go near.  Eternal damnation is the complete separation from God.   Repentance unites us with God.  No one goes to hell because they were an atheist.  Right until the end and beyond on Judgement Day we have a choice.  Do we want to stay with sin thus joining Satan in hell or do we want to remedy our sin and be with God.  It's still a choice.



                    Don't associate those pastors with God.



                    Did Jesus behave like that? Did He demand tithes or threaten them with hell? Did He constantly condemn sinners and not give them a chance to repent? Are those pastors having the mind of Christ?




                    How about God wanting our love and companionship?

                  3. SpanStar profile image60
                    SpanStarposted 4 years ago in reply to this

                    "Yes WHY DIDNT GOT KILL SATAN?"

                    What I am about to say I read a very long time ago.

                    Lucifer during the time he was in heaven was a leader and had a large impact on other angels. Once Lucifer was cast out of heaven God could have destroyed him then and there but if he had done so other angels might question maybe Lucifer had some validity to the claims he was making as far as taking over heaven.

                    Now the following is from me.

                    After all this time heaven and earth can now judge for themselves what Satan is really like.

                  4. Astralrose profile image85
                    Astralroseposted 4 years ago in reply to this

                    Well said gabgirl. And yeah, religion is all about control.

                  5. soldout777 profile image60
                    soldout777posted 4 years ago in reply to this

                    Christianity is about a personal relationship with Jesus. Without having that relationship you can't understand a thing about what the other person is telling. It's all about love man. I know you won't understand, but hey it's fine....

                    Don't act as if you know everything about something when you don't know anything at all!

                3. A Thousand Words profile image81
                  A Thousand Wordsposted 4 years ago in reply to this

                  So God isn't all powerful? I'd imagine something that can bring a being into existence can also take it out of existence.

                  1. Claire Evans profile image90
                    Claire Evansposted 4 years ago in reply to this

                    God did not bring Satan into existence.

            2. chatpilot profile image67
              chatpilotposted 4 years ago in reply to this

              "He cares about what we want.  Do you want to be forced to worship God?"

              Being forced to serve God if you take the Bible to be his word is exactly what you have been subjected to. According to the scriptures there are only two "choices" either you serve God or you don't. One option promises rewards in heaven and eternal life in the presence of God and the other comes with the threat of eternal torment in hell.

              That's like putting a gun to someones head and saying you have only two choices: you can call me master and do everything I tell you to do or you can or you can endure an eternity of agonizing torture without being able to die. That is not an option nor free will it is a threat and an ultimatum.

              1. profile image0
                Deepes Mindposted 4 years ago in reply to this

                Depending on how you view your life.. LOL.. There may be some that do not care one way or the other whether the trigger is pulled or not.

                1. A Troubled Man profile image60
                  A Troubled Manposted 4 years ago in reply to this

                  That's fine, but that doesn't diminish the fact it is still a threat.

                  1. profile image0
                    Deepes Mindposted 4 years ago in reply to this

                    Not to the person possibly looking to end his or her life

                2. chatpilot profile image67
                  chatpilotposted 4 years ago in reply to this

                  Obviously you don't  seem to get what I meant with that analogy. The Biblical view of life is not life at all. Based on the Bible we are all born with a sin debt owed to God which we could never fulfill. Only through the acceptance of Jesus Christ as our Lord (master) and savior can we be redeemed and reconciled with God. 

                  The very language used in the Bible about mans relationship to God is that same language used when one speaks of slavery. As a Christian you are a "servant" of the Lord (master). Your so called free will is only applicable to your choice to submit to God's will once you do so your will then is to do God's will and live in a manner that is pleasing to him.

                  The Bible speaks about obedience and disobedience and just like a human slave master would punish a slave for not obeying with lashed or even hanging your God punishes man for the same offenses namely disobedience. Except God's punishment is not just in life but follows you into death making your god worse than any monster that man could ever imagine. Your religion is entirely based on fear. You don't believe me read if for yourself.

                  4“I tell you, my friends, do not be afraid of those who kill the body and after that can do no more. 5But I will show you whom you should fear: Fear him who, after your body has been killed, has authority to throw you into hell. Yes, I tell you, fear him." Luke 12:4-5 (NIV)

                  This verse and others like it warn you to fear God

                  1. Raitu Disong profile image61
                    Raitu Disongposted 4 years ago in reply to this
                  2. profile image0
                    Deepes Mindposted 4 years ago in reply to this

                    I actually did get it.. I was trying to be humorous.

              2. profile image0
                christiananrkistposted 4 years ago in reply to this

                People sometimes over complicate things. God wants a relationship with us. we either accept it or not. Hell is eternal separation from God. This results in torment (not torture) being eternally separated from God's grace and goodness. This is nothing like the gun to the head scenario. also to answer the question of God not destroying Satan. God doesn't destroy his creations. And please don't bring up the flood or anything else like that. Just because God to their lives on earth doesn't mean they are destroyed for eternity. Eternal live is something i think a lot of atheist have a hard time grasping. Also Satan is the great tempter, but mans deeds and thought are evil anyway. The bible does say man prefers darkness over light. This is why Jesus pays the debt of mankind in doing, we might be able to reconcile with God and establish the relationship with him that he longs for.

                1. chatpilot profile image67
                  chatpilotposted 4 years ago in reply to this

                  I've been there and done that. How do you know what God wants? First of all so called divine revelation is not a valid means of obtainiing knowledge. Thomas Paines summed it up nicely in 'The Age of Reason'

                  "No one will deny or dispute the power of the Almighty to make such a communication, if he pleases. But admitting, for the sake of a case, that something has been revealed to a certain person, and not revealed to any other person, it is revelation to that person only. When he tells it to a second person, a second to a third, a third to a fourth, and so on, it ceases to be a revelation to all those persons. It is revelation to the first person only, and hearsay to every other, and consequently they are not obliged to believe it."

                  Not to mention the fact that the majority of the BIbles authors are unknown since most of their works were written by anonymous authors and have been edited and redacted. There are no existing original texts of the scriptures what we have are copies of copies of copies. None of the synoptic gospels are first hand accounts of the life of Jesus. In fact Mark was the first one composed and it is dated to about 65 or 70CE All three synoptic gospels were presented as anonymous works and were not given the names we know today till till the mid to late second century.

                  So basically everything you claim to know about God through the scriptures is worthless.

                  1. profile image0
                    christiananrkistposted 4 years ago in reply to this

                    Why do people always bring up the bible is copies of copies blah blah. So what? That's pretty much how historical documents or found. That fact that we have so many copies just makes it more reliable. This is because we can compare the copies and correct the mistakes like a word left out in a certain area a grammatical error or a misspelling (which is what most of the differences are by the way). When people her of king tut they don't say. well all we have is copies of copies. also that mark was written in 65 of 70 also makes it pretty reliable.Document on many other historical figures aren't found within a life time of their passing.  People seem to have unrealistic standards for the bible. Jesus was right when he said even if Moses came back to life , you still wouldn't believe.

                2. Mark Knowles profile image61
                  Mark Knowlesposted 4 years ago in reply to this

                  Well - which is it? Did Jesus pay the debt that god forced us to carry or do we have to actually believe garbage in order to spend eternity in the majik kingdom after we are not dead?

                  1. profile image0
                    christiananrkistposted 4 years ago in reply to this

                    To be honest I'm not sure which part you didn't understand. Yes, Jesus paid or debt. Not sure how you didn't catch that one. I also don't see how God forced us to carry a debt. Do you even know what that means? You don't get forced to owe somebody something, you just owe based on you're actions.  I also love how you use the term magic (not majik) kingdom. That is actually pretty funny but that's not the christian belief. The belief is we spend eternity with or creator. If that isn't what you want then its your choice. Why be so hateful though towards people who do choose that?

                  2. profile image61
                    puellaposted 4 years ago in reply to this

                    Mark! still stilled?

              3. Claire Evans profile image90
                Claire Evansposted 4 years ago in reply to this

                It is true that you either serve God or not but what is the alternative to serving God? It is serving Satan in though in most cases it is unwittingly and indirectly.   Hell is the complete absence of God.  If you don't want to be with God then Satan will claim you.  God is not handing you over to Satan.  He does everything in His power to avoid that like taking on our sin.

        2. janesix profile image60
          janesixposted 4 years ago in reply to this

          Funny. I don't remember choosing Satan as my leader.

          1. Claire Evans profile image90
            Claire Evansposted 4 years ago in reply to this

            No, not everybody consciously chooses Satan as their leader.  When we sin we hand Satan the power.  So we enable him and cooperate with him.  If one does not choose Jesus as their saviour they are doing exactly what Satan wants them to do.

            1. Disappearinghead profile image84
              Disappearingheadposted 4 years ago in reply to this

              Evidence for those claims?

              1. Claire Evans profile image90
                Claire Evansposted 4 years ago in reply to this

                Take for example a corrupt politician.  If we see he does evil and we just ignore that and continue to support him still erroneously believing he has their best intentions at heart then those people are indirectly giving him power by not condemning him.

                How many people condemn the West for supporting those murderous Free Syrian Army.  Take for example Obama and Cameron.  They are committing war crimes by supporting them but how many people will condemn them and not give them any votes?

                That's all Satan needs to thrive.  People who don't challenge him and don't expose evil and condemn it.

                1. jonnycomelately profile image85
                  jonnycomelatelyposted 4 years ago in reply to this

                  Claire, for the first time I can agree with your metaphor.

                2. chatpilot profile image67
                  chatpilotposted 4 years ago in reply to this

                  If that's the case then Christians are aiding and abetting Satan by not challenging God for his evil deeds towards humanity. Although I am pretty sure that the majority of the tales in the Bible are false and mythological I will use them as examples.

                  He destroyed the entire world once, supposedly led the Hebrews on a Caananit conquests which involved slaughtering whole towns including men, women, and children. he destroyed the towns of Sodom and Gamorrah, killed all the firstborn sons of Egypt including livestock. So why aren't believers calling their God on these horrendous acts?

                  1. Claire Evans profile image90
                    Claire Evansposted 4 years ago in reply to this

                    Why are believers not questioning the lies about most of the OT? It is based on pagan nonsense.  The literal translation says God is a singular word for ETs.  Moses interacted with ETs not God.   

                    I find it horrendous to try and point this out to Christians yet they side step the issue.

            2. profile image0
              Deepes Mindposted 4 years ago in reply to this

              But when we repent we take that power back and return it to God, do we not?

              1. Claire Evans profile image90
                Claire Evansposted 4 years ago in reply to this

                How many people do you think truly repents? Not enough to disable all of Satan's power.  And, of course, people repent but are human and sin again.

                1. profile image62
                  krzystoffposted 4 years ago in reply to this

                  if you don't believe in (Angels, Devils, Faeries, Eleves, Elementals, Nature Spirits, Woodland Creatures, etc) they will cease to exist.

                  1. jonnycomelately profile image85
                    jonnycomelatelyposted 4 years ago in reply to this

                    Oh! krzystoff, what a spoil-sport you are.... so many people depend on those beliefs to support their rich lifestyles.   Would you want to deprive them?  smile

            3. gabgirl12 profile image77
              gabgirl12posted 4 years ago in reply to this

              The only people who choose Satan as their leader are called Satanists. The only reason you say 'not everybody consciously' chooses is because we're not consciously following you. Anyone can say that to get their way. What's next? we stop being human beings too?

              1. profile image0
                Deepes Mindposted 4 years ago in reply to this

                You must have not gotten to the part where she said we all have alien DNA inside of us

              2. Claire Evans profile image90
                Claire Evansposted 4 years ago in reply to this

                That's ridiculous.

            4. chatpilot profile image67
              chatpilotposted 4 years ago in reply to this

              First you must prove that your god, his son, and Satan exist.

              1. janesix profile image60
                janesixposted 4 years ago in reply to this

                Why? Either you believe or you don't.

                1. chatpilot profile image67
                  chatpilotposted 4 years ago in reply to this

                  It's called the burden of proof and since you are making an absolute claim that God exists it's up to you to provide evidence of that. You actually can't prove it objecitively or emperically. The reason for this is that you believe in God based on faith which requires no evidence. Also, conveniently your god supposedly exists outside of the reach of scientific scrutiny.

                  1. janesix profile image60
                    janesixposted 4 years ago in reply to this

                    Then don't worry about it. Move on. Why do you atheists care what we believe anyway? Get a hobby.

              2. Claire Evans profile image90
                Claire Evansposted 4 years ago in reply to this

                The thing is that evidence for God and Satan is construed by believers must differently than those who don't.  So I can give you evidence but you won't have the ability to be convinced it is from God.

        3. profile image0
          Rad Manposted 4 years ago in reply to this

          I'm told that's what Mother Teresa thought as well, so she dedicated her life to helping people die a painful and sometimes needless death, but chose a different ending for her own life. I think your a little mixed up as to what's good and bad and to what choices people make.

          1. Claire Evans profile image90
            Claire Evansposted 4 years ago in reply to this

            No, you just don't understand what I'm saying.

          2. soldout777 profile image60
            soldout777posted 4 years ago in reply to this

            People are not perfect, if  you try to follow them , you might fall.. follow the perfect God.

            1. chatpilot profile image67
              chatpilotposted 4 years ago in reply to this

              The Biblical god is far from perfect! Just read the Bible all the way through and it will help you see his many flaws. The fact that he is the invention of man is reflected in his actions. The Bible is riddled with anthropomorphsm where God shares many of mans own defects. God is admitedly jealous, has quite the temper, feels grief, demanding, arrogant, and a whole slew of other negative human traits.

              1. soldout777 profile image60
                soldout777posted 4 years ago in reply to this

                Wow interesting!

                Are you 100% sure that you are absolutely right?

                1. janesix profile image60
                  janesixposted 4 years ago in reply to this

                  "I am a jealous God"

                  What more do you need. Do you even read your own book? God of the Bible is an ass. Didn't you notice that?

                  1. soldout777 profile image60
                    soldout777posted 4 years ago in reply to this

                    God rocks !!!

                  2. profile image62
                    krzystoffposted 4 years ago in reply to this

                    The Abrahamic God is the product of a simple, ignorant era where very few had any education. The vast majority were then philosophically and spirtually callow.  Along with civilisation, one would expect that in the succeeding millenia God has evolved a great deal.  Thus emotive responses to these events would be unrecognisably different today.

                2. chatpilot profile image67
                  chatpilotposted 4 years ago in reply to this

                  On idol worship: You shall not bow down to them or worship them; for I, the LORD your God, am a jealous God, punishing the children for the sin of the parents to the third and fourth generation of those who hate me, Exodus 20:5
                  The Lord hates! : There are six things the LORD hates, seven that are detestable to him: Proverbs 6:16
                  "See now that I myself am he! There is no god besides me. I put to death and I bring to life, I have wounded and I will heal, and no one can deliver out of my hand." Deuteronomy 32:39

                  1. soldout777 profile image60
                    soldout777posted 4 years ago in reply to this

                    Yes He is a jealous God!
                    Does that make you uncomfortable?
                    Are you jealous that many worship Him???

      2. jonnycomelately profile image85
        jonnycomelatelyposted 4 years ago in reply to this

        "And Man said, 'Let us make God in our own Image.'"

        1. profile image0
          Rad Manposted 4 years ago in reply to this

          "And Man said, 'Let us make EACH God to our own liking.'"

          1. johndnathan profile image84
            johndnathanposted 4 years ago in reply to this

            "And Man said 'Let each one of us make our own version of a god that is just as petty, narcissistic, and selfish as we are."'

            1. Chris Neal profile image81
              Chris Nealposted 4 years ago in reply to this

              In the beginning, God created man. And man has been trying to return the compliment ever since.

        2. soldout777 profile image60
          soldout777posted 4 years ago in reply to this

          That is the distorted version of the Bible. Read it carefully, hopefully you get some idea about what the enlightened people are experiencing. You will be shocked when you realize you have been missing out so much.

          1. profile image0
            Rad Manposted 4 years ago in reply to this

            You're right, it is a distorted view of the bible, but it's a perfect view of reality.

            1. soldout777 profile image60
              soldout777posted 4 years ago in reply to this

              Again your view of reality is distorted!

          2. chatpilot profile image67
            chatpilotposted 4 years ago in reply to this

            "That is the distorted version of the Bible. Read it carefully, hopefully you get some idea about what the enlightened people are experiencing. "

            Lmfao! enlightened? More like deluded.

            1. soldout777 profile image60
              soldout777posted 4 years ago in reply to this

              So what is the (UN) distorted version of the Bible???

              1. chatpilot profile image67
                chatpilotposted 4 years ago in reply to this

                "So what is the (UN) distorted version of the Bible???"

                Try reading about how the Bible came to be written, compiled, and canonized. Then read it in its historical contexts minus your religious bias and you just might get a glimpse of that the undistorted version of the BIble is. It was a very human work and that's why it is riddled with human errors, misinformation about astronomy and other sciences, and blatant contradictions. There is nothing divine about the Bible.

                1. soldout777 profile image60
                  soldout777posted 4 years ago in reply to this

                  I see your point!

                  I became a Christian because of what He is to me. He is a living God, He lives in me.

                  I know you will not agree with me on this, that's absolutely fine...

                  It may not work for you but  it works for me...

                  Does it offend you?

                  1. chatpilot profile image67
                    chatpilotposted 4 years ago in reply to this

                    It doesn't offend me at all. If you would have asked me about Jesus in the days when I was in the ministry I would have probably replied as you have now. In those days I thought I felt God's presence around me at all times and felt the Holy Spirit residing in me renewing my mind. I was a Pentecostal evangelist and believed in miracles. My specialty in those days was deliverance from demonic forces. People testifid and claimed to having been healed through my ministry and I gave all the glory to God for using me in such a powerfful way.

                    That's why it was so hard for me to leave. It took me six years to get over the fear of the Lord, death, and hell. I was a committed believer of the gospel but when I read the Bible in its entirety for the first time it disgusted me and showed me God in a different light.

                  2. jonnycomelately profile image85
                    jonnycomelatelyposted 4 years ago in reply to this

                    I see your point, respect what it means to you, personally.  When such a deep personal conviction gets extrapolated to apply to everyone else that you get religions formed.   Then, of course, the argument and the rigid positioning of "faith."   
                    Then there can be no end to discord, fighting, mud-slinging and ultimate wars.
                    If that conviction you have leads you to deepen the awareness in your own life, fills your being with love and caring, then it will overflow on to others you meet.  That is the only context in which I can give credence to the "holy spirit."  It's something of quality that is shared around.

        3. Chris Neal profile image81
          Chris Nealposted 4 years ago in reply to this

          Man has certainly been trying. God has a way of reasserting Himself, though.

      3. boyatdelhi profile image39
        boyatdelhiposted 4 years ago in reply to this

        Psalms 14 says:

        The fool says in his heart, “There is no God.”
            They are corrupt, they do abominable deeds,
            there is none who does good.

        2 The Lord looks down from heaven on the children of man,
            to see if there are any who understand,[a]
            who seek after God.

        3 They have all turned aside; together they have become corrupt;
            there is none who does good,
            not even one.

        4 Have they no knowledge, all the evildoers
            who eat up my people as they eat bread
            and do not call upon the Lord?

        5 There they are in great terror,
            for God is with the generation of the righteous.
        6 You would shame the plans of the poor,
            but[b] the Lord is his refuge.

        7 Oh, that salvation for Israel would come out of Zion!
            When the Lord restores the fortunes of his people,
            let Jacob rejoice, let Israel be glad.

        1. A Thousand Words profile image81
          A Thousand Wordsposted 4 years ago in reply to this

          This is like quoting the Qu'ran to a Christian and expecting them to feel convicted. Not very effective if most of the readers don't see any validity in the book you're quoting.

          1. boyatdelhi profile image39
            boyatdelhiposted 4 years ago in reply to this

            Bible is the only document to prove the existence of God.  Without bible it is almost impossible to prove the existence of God.

            Believe in God, he will manifest in your life. Jesus is the only way for salvation.
            Jesus Loves you.  Jesus calling you.  May God bless you

            1. Disappearinghead profile image84
              Disappearingheadposted 4 years ago in reply to this

              Please show us where exactly the bible proves the existence of God? I believe in him, but it is not because of anything in the the bible.

              Why do you think your quote of Psalm 14 was meant to be universally applied to all of humanity at all times? It seems to me that the writer was commenting on the culture and situation of his contemporaries at that time. Take verses 3-5 for example. My next door neighbour is a fully signed up communist (yes they still exist) and an atheist, yet he is anything but corrupt, he does not oppress Jews (or Christians), and he is certainly not in terror because 'God is with the generation of the righteous'.

              To take passages from the bible that were written by the authors to explicitly address some issue applicable to ancient Israel and the brutal World they lived in, and try to apply them to 21st Century civilised Western societies is meaningless.

              I went under the moniker of 'fundamentalist-bible-believing-spirit-filled-Christian' for 25 years, yet in all that time I saw no evidence of the 'Believe in God, he will manifest in your life'. These are just meaningless memes. Since walking away from Church and the plastic manmade religion that calls itself Christianity today, I am happy, I am truly free. I am better off in every way: financially, practically, mentally, emotionally. You should try it.

              Yes Jesus is the only way for salvation, but its a done deal, completed, "It is finished", for all people, man is just a bystander in this. You cannot threaten people with hell for not formally accepting what is already theirs even if they do not know it.

              1. soldout777 profile image60
                soldout777posted 4 years ago in reply to this

                He is not threatening you.
                He is sharing with you the good news, for you to make the right choice.

                1. Disappearinghead profile image84
                  Disappearingheadposted 4 years ago in reply to this

                  I never said he was threatening me. But what he is sharing (if I'm not mistaken) is 'turn or burn'. That is not the gospel.

                  1. soldout777 profile image60
                    soldout777posted 4 years ago in reply to this

                    your last post goes like this
                    "You cannot threaten people with hell for not formally accepting what is already theirs even if they do not know it."
                    So I was just trying to tell you, it is not a threat, but rather warning to anyone to not go in the wrong way. But if you choose to go your own way, God is not going to stop you, because you have the free will.


                    Anyway i understand your point...


                    Well I haven't read your other posts yet, so I don't know whether you are a believer, agnostic or an atheist?

                2. profile image0
                  Deepes Mindposted 4 years ago in reply to this

                  Disappearinghead is a universalist. He has found passages in the bible that basically supports the idea that no matter what happens here, Christ's death already reconciled everyone to God and heaven is a done deal

                  1. soldout777 profile image60
                    soldout777posted 4 years ago in reply to this

                    It will be great if he could quote those passages here.

                    And BTW, do you think he is right in saying that? Just curious...

                3. profile image0
                  riddle666posted 4 years ago in reply to this

                  Good news??? Blah!

            2. jonnycomelately profile image85
              jonnycomelatelyposted 4 years ago in reply to this

              boyatdelhi, your post is consistent with your Profile.   Obviously you are a person who has a deep faith in christianity.   Fair enough. 

              Any argument with you will never change your mind, so why would some one like myself even try to?

              I have my understandings and have not found anything yet to change them..  Maybe -- one day.

            3. A Troubled Man profile image60
              A Troubled Manposted 4 years ago in reply to this

              The Lord of Rings trilogy are the only books to prove the existence of Orks. Without the trilogy, it is almost impossible to prove the existence of Orks.

              See the silliness in both statements?

              1. A Thousand Words profile image81
                A Thousand Wordsposted 4 years ago in reply to this

                Wait, Orks aren't real? :'(

                1. A Troubled Man profile image60
                  A Troubled Manposted 4 years ago in reply to this

                  Oops, sorry, I didn't mean to let the cat out of the bag.

                2. JMcFarland profile image89
                  JMcFarlandposted 4 years ago in reply to this

                  unicorns are, though.  They're in the bible.

                  1. A Thousand Words profile image81
                    A Thousand Wordsposted 4 years ago in reply to this

                    Yea, I read that. Though I figured they meant a single-horned rhinoceros (and then I read info on how they explained it, and sure enough, single-horned rhinoceros). JM, what is that translated to directly from the Hebrew, I'm curious.

                    But what really exists without a shadow of a doubt is talking donkeys. Didn't you guys see Shrek? Apparently they sound like Eddie Murphy. Oh goodness, and the bible mentions them, too, I forgot. See! Undeniable evidence.

                3. profile image0
                  riddle666posted 4 years ago in reply to this

                  It is orc and they are indeed real, because elves are also mentioned by Tolkien. Elves are mentioned by Rowling,  The Norse people and  the Anglosaxons. How can these many authors and peoples be wrong?

              2. profile image0
                Deepes Mindposted 4 years ago in reply to this

                Actually, orks (or orcs) are not only written about in the LOTR trilogy.. There are other books (with pictures) that talk about orcs.

                1. A Troubled Man profile image60
                  A Troubled Manposted 4 years ago in reply to this

                  That may very well lend more evidence for the existence of orx. smile

                  1. profile image61
                    puellaposted 4 years ago in reply to this

                    you have made me laugh!!!

    2. Zelkiiro profile image86
      Zelkiiroposted 4 years ago in reply to this

      Time to pull out good ol' Epicurus:

      "Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able?
      Then he is not omnipotent.
      Is he able, but not willing?
      Then he is malevolent.
      Is he both able and willing.
      Then whence cometh evil?
      Is he neither able nor willing?
      Then why call him God?"

      1. profile image0
        Beth37posted 4 years ago in reply to this

        If you put a child in a room with padded walls and no objects, so that they could not get hurt, did not let them outside so nothing bad could ever happen to them, gave them an abundance of everything, but never a challenge.... you would call that a loving parent.

        We live in a fallen world. Man has separated himself from God. *You personally have either rejected or deny Him... then you question Him. You should find out personally who God actually is instead of saying He falls short of the standards you, presumably an American boy around 20, would set for Him.

        1. Zelkiiro profile image86
          Zelkiiroposted 4 years ago in reply to this

          I'm sure the nearly one billion people starving to death worldwide (through no fault of their own, mind you) are comforted by those words.

          1. profile image0
            Beth37posted 4 years ago in reply to this

            That's a childish response to what I said... and if they are starving, it is because those of us who can help, teach, or fund, do not. God has given us the means to help. What do you do personally while you sit back and blame a God you say you do not even believe in?

            1. Zelkiiro profile image86
              Zelkiiroposted 4 years ago in reply to this

              And I'm sure they're also comforted by the fact that they're just guinea pigs for God to test the faith of others.

              1. profile image0
                Beth37posted 4 years ago in reply to this

                I see you cannot respond accordingly. Ill let you go.

            2. psycheskinner profile image80
              psycheskinnerposted 4 years ago in reply to this

              If God is omnipotent and omniscient he made us specifically to be exactly as we are-- killing and torturing each other.

              If He had no idea what we would do, he is not omniscient--which begs the question as to whether he is a god?

              And even so if he allows good people to suffer just to make some kind of point, then he is not benevolent.

              This is the tension.  We are told God id a kind of being that is inconsistent with the world we live in.

              1. profile image0
                Beth37posted 4 years ago in reply to this

                He has given us a free will. A loving God would not create a world of robots, but a world of ppl who had the choice to do right and wrong... to choose Him or deny Him. Would you have it any other way?

                1. psycheskinner profile image80
                  psycheskinnerposted 4 years ago in reply to this

                  He made us the kind of creatures that torture each other when given free will.  So it is kind of like giving your baby a straight razor.

                  All I am saying is that there is tension between how God is described and the world we find ourselves in.  Drawing attention to that--however you resolve it in your own mind--is a valid thing to do.

                  1. profile image0
                    Beth37posted 4 years ago in reply to this

                    Do you kill other humans? Are you the kind of "creature" who would kill another human with a straight razor? I doubt that you are.

                    The bible explains that when sin entered the world, death entered the world.
                    We could get into the subject of satan, sin, death, eternal life etc... but it is all in Genesis, a very interesting book.

                2. HowardBThiname profile image89
                  HowardBThinameposted 4 years ago in reply to this

                  Beth, if God is all-knowing, then He already knows the outcome of everything. Biblical prophecy, especially Revelations, indicates that everything is going according to God's plan.

                  The problem arises when an all-knowing God realizes before the creation of a specific human (let's use Hitler for example), that the human will go on to lead a horrible life and end up in the pits of Hell - and then that God goes ahead and creates that human anyway. If God knows what choices you will make - before you make them - is it REALLY free will? I don't think so.

                  And speaking of Genesis - I've always been confused by the conflict there. God said that if Adam and Eve ate the fruit - in that day - they would die. The Serpent said that if Adam and Eve were to eat of the fruit - they would not die - but instead their eyes would be open. Yet, after they snacked - God came back and said their eyes were now open and they were "like one of 'Us'", which, in itself is strange, because it indicates that there were others "like God."

                  At any rate - don't you find it strange that the Serpent was the one that actually told the truth? And, if God lied then - don't you think that sets a precedent for Him being untrustworthy?

                  I think all that "free will" stuff is just as much hocus pocus is just something that believers use to comfort themselves when their stories don't make a lick of sense.

                  1. profile image0
                    Deepes Mindposted 4 years ago in reply to this

                    Actually, according to the bible, the serpent did lie. Adam and Eve did not immediately drop dead, but by their actions they were banished from the Garden of Eden (where they would have lived forever) and sent to the world where they did eventually die

                  2. profile image0
                    Beth37posted 4 years ago in reply to this

                    They were created to live without death... because they sinned they now would die. Their physical bodies would cease to be alive. This is what is meant by "you will surely die."

                3. profile image0
                  Rad Manposted 4 years ago in reply to this

                  But if choosing to worship him does not make you one a better person then is it really good?

                  1. profile image0
                    Beth37posted 4 years ago in reply to this

                    Worshiping Him doesn't necessarily make you good, no. One would worship Him because *He is good. My best is, it couldn't hurt.

            3. PhoenixV profile image82
              PhoenixVposted 4 years ago in reply to this

              Some hate the Truth and love and embrace evil. Their conscience is seared. Because of this, God has given them over to that.

              They rationalize that their subjective opinions about, suffering, innocence and benevolence are valid but it's NOT childlike and naive but disingenuous and calculating.

              1. soldout777 profile image60
                soldout777posted 4 years ago in reply to this

                Yes phoenix that is Very true!

                1. JMcFarland profile image89
                  JMcFarlandposted 4 years ago in reply to this

                  except it's not true.  At all.

                  1. soldout777 profile image60
                    soldout777posted 4 years ago in reply to this

                    I know this is what you will say!
                    thatsokay with me !!!

            4. profile image0
              Rad Manposted 4 years ago in reply to this

              God is not being blamed for anything. The logical conclusion for the suffering is he doesn't exist as described in the bible if he exists at all. This not an attack on God, it's an attack on the concept of God.

              1. profile image0
                Beth37posted 4 years ago in reply to this

                I read his response. I would assume he could speak for himself.

              2. soldout777 profile image60
                soldout777posted 4 years ago in reply to this

                The Bible describes God as a loving God, who also will punish those who will go against His teachings.

                This world is not our permanent place, we are here for just a moment and then tomorrow we are gone....

                Whatever God does is for the good of those who trust in Him.
                He is a safe place to run to for those who trust in Him,
                but a stumbling block for those who refuse to believe in Him.

                1. jonnycomelately profile image85
                  jonnycomelatelyposted 4 years ago in reply to this

                  Sold out to good sense, if you were to ask me..... Would you put your trust in someone who threatened to destroy you if you did not conform?

                  1. soldout777 profile image60
                    soldout777posted 4 years ago in reply to this

                    Man! you don't understand a thing here!
                    God loves me, He never threatens me....

              3. soldout777 profile image60
                soldout777posted 4 years ago in reply to this

                Well if we don't want to see any more sufferings in this world, follow God!, God of love!
                And everything will be ok.

            5. jonnycomelately profile image85
              jonnycomelatelyposted 4 years ago in reply to this

              And Beth, it's not exactly an adult conversation when your respond to a young man's skepticism with religiosity.

              1. profile image0
                Beth37posted 4 years ago in reply to this

                The conversation is about religion.

          2. youcanwin profile image36
            youcanwinposted 4 years ago in reply to this

            How can you blame God for the starvation of people?  They or their forefathers may have done something wrong, that is why they are punished and in suffering!

            1. profile image0
              Rad Manposted 4 years ago in reply to this

              So your God must not be forgiving, loving God?

              1. JMcFarland profile image89
                JMcFarlandposted 4 years ago in reply to this

                at least he's not saying it's a mystery.

                Clearly starving children deserve what they get - you know, because they're evil - or their parents were evil.  Or their grandparents were evil.  It's a good bet that SOMEONE at SOME point was evil - and that's why the babies are starving now, of course.

                1. profile image0
                  Rad Manposted 4 years ago in reply to this

                  That seems evil to me. Perhaps the God reflects the person?

                  1. JMcFarland profile image89
                    JMcFarlandposted 4 years ago in reply to this

                    makes sense...now where have I heard that before?

                2. soldout777 profile image60
                  soldout777posted 4 years ago in reply to this

                  Love God, Love your neighbor..
                  and this world will be a better place...
                  God want us all to love one another, share with each other. It is humans who are responsible for these problems...

                  1. jonnycomelately profile image85
                    jonnycomelatelyposted 4 years ago in reply to this

                    Sure, Soldout, that's what I say,  totally agree with you.

                    But if I fall in love with my neighbour, and go to bed with him, you will likely declare me so sinful that I cannot come into Heaven with you.  sad

        2. A Troubled Man profile image60
          A Troubled Manposted 4 years ago in reply to this

          No, that would be an obsessed parent, not a loving parent.

          [

          No, we don't. The world has not fallen.



          Or, they have the intelligence to understand gods are myths.

        3. jonnycomelately profile image85
          jonnycomelatelyposted 4 years ago in reply to this

          Zelkiiro is approaching the subject with considerable skepticism.   That is very healthy for a 20 year old.  Why should he accept everything that is thrown at him by committed christian people without question?

          1. profile image0
            Beth37posted 4 years ago in reply to this

            I didn't say it was odd for him to question, nor did I say he should accept everything without question.

            What I did say was that it makes no sense to say someone does not exist and then to say they lack goodness. Either He is real or He is not.... if you come to the understanding that He is real, *then you could have a conversation about whether or not He is good.

            1. A Troubled Man profile image60
              A Troubled Manposted 4 years ago in reply to this

              Once again, you don't appear to understand we get that. We can talk about gods just like we can talk about Santa Claus or the Easter Bunny, which we also don't believe are real.

              1. profile image0
                Beth37posted 4 years ago in reply to this

                I don't think you had a full grasp of my post there, but that's ok. You can take a mulligan if you wish.

                1. A Troubled Man profile image60
                  A Troubled Manposted 4 years ago in reply to this

                  It's the same misunderstanding you have over and over again, no matter how many times its explained to you.

            2. profile image0
              Rad Manposted 4 years ago in reply to this

              We can look at the description of God we have in the bible and determine or judge his character.

              1. profile image0
                Beth37posted 4 years ago in reply to this

                Indeed.

                1. profile image0
                  Rad Manposted 4 years ago in reply to this

                  So we can determine his Goodness before we determine his existence.

          2. Zelkiiro profile image86
            Zelkiiroposted 4 years ago in reply to this

            ...I'm 25.

      2. Claire Evans profile image90
        Claire Evansposted 4 years ago in reply to this

        Yes, He is willing and that is why He gave us His son so that sin can be forgiven and that disables evil.  The question is are we willing to prevent evil?  Evil comes from Satan and people enable him. 

        So the point I'm trying to make is that God can prevent evil but are people, whom God has given free will, willing to prevent evil? Why put the onus all on God when people give Satan power?  Epicurus completely omits the power of Satan and who it is people that are responsible for evil in the world. 

        So what can God do? As mentioned, He can defeat sin by saving us or He can just turn us into robots that can't think for themselves so they can't be tempted to do evil.  Who wants that? You can't love a robot.  Why would God want robots?

        And never forget that God suffers the most.

    3. profile image0
      Deepes Mindposted 4 years ago in reply to this

      Based on conversations that I have had with some atheists, it doesn't appear to be as simple as them saying "God does not exist because there is so much suffering in this world). It Isn't that black and white. (NOTE- The following response is based off discussions that I have personally had with atheists).

      Here is the thing, We Christians speak of God as an omnipotent, omnipresent, omnibenevolent (I could go on, but we all get the point). Some Christians believe that God interacts physically with this world and has his hands on everything going on in the world. Now it isn't hard to see the suffering that is going on in the world, from starvation in Africa (among other places), to disease, etc. Atheists (based on conversations) have a hard time believing that an omni- everything God that interacts with this world exists that would allow such suffering to happen. With this in mind, there are three potential situations to consider that all have their own implications.

      1) Either God does not exist (which, considering lack of evidence is their likely situation

      2) God exists, but does not interact with the physical world (watches)

      3) God exists and does interact with the physical world.


      Now here the implications:

      If 1 is true, then we Christians have been believing an honest life based on a lie.

      If 2 is correct, then this takes away from God's omnipotence and/or benevolence (depending if it is a matter of him not being able to interact with the physical world or being unwilling to)

      If three is correct and he does interact with the physical world but doesn't in these cases, then he is not benevolent.


      Ultimately (again based on conversations I have had with atheists, and Zelkiiro quoted Epucurius on this one) , atheists find it difficult to believe that a God exists that would allow these things to occur. Now if it were proven sufficiently (for them) that God does exist, it would be even harder to accept and follow Him because he allows this suffering although he is supposed to be omni-everything.

      1. Jerami profile image73
        Jeramiposted 4 years ago in reply to this

        Our physical existence is only temporary!
        IF when this physically experience ends. according to religion, a part of us continues to exist.
        It seems logical to me, thais part of us must have existed before we took on this physical existence.
        I ask myself, why would we choose to enter into an existence where other people’s choices limit or expand upon our pleasures and discomforts. 
        I don’t think we would if we didn’t know that it was only temporary.
        Is having a bad experience better than having no experience at all. Some people will say yes while others will say no.
        How can we know what we would want to do if everything about us was different and we were in a different enviroment.   We just don't know what we don't know,  Ya know?

        1. Bebesiz profile image59
          Bebesizposted 4 years ago in reply to this

          Do ya believe that people continue to exist after death?

          1. Jerami profile image73
            Jeramiposted 4 years ago in reply to this

            People ??   That person ?   A portion of the entirety ?
            I believe that there is a part of this person that I think I am that does continue on for ever.
            Though I think that I am a complete whatever it is that I think that I am, I somehow believe that I am but a small piece of whatever it is "I Am" represents.     

               And my purpose in this existance is to be me.

            1. jonnycomelately profile image85
              jonnycomelatelyposted 4 years ago in reply to this

              All each of us needs to do is try to leave the world we live in just a little bit better than when we came into it.   Simple.   Nothing complicated about it.

              Then leave humbly, saying, "I did what I could.   It's up to you folks now."

              Hanging on to this idea of "me" existing after my death is so, so pointless.  It detracts from my efforts in this moment, doing what I can for those immediately around.   It takes my mental energy.   The idea is used by others to create fear and foreboding in my mind, saying there is someone "up there" waiting to judge me.   What absolute nonsense! 

              I reject such notions, totally.

              1. profile image0
                Rad Manposted 4 years ago in reply to this

                You continue to amaze me. Sorry to have judged you, but I have and I like what I read.

              2. soldout777 profile image60
                soldout777posted 4 years ago in reply to this

                you will realize on the day you die..

                1. jonnycomelately profile image85
                  jonnycomelatelyposted 4 years ago in reply to this

                  You may believe that... your choice.   I make my choice.   Thank you.

                  1. soldout777 profile image60
                    soldout777posted 4 years ago in reply to this

                    You are welcome

                2. Josak profile image61
                  Josakposted 4 years ago in reply to this

                  Always these weak threats. That is what Christianity has become, an ideology that increasingly attempts to intimidate or shame people into itself.

                  1. profile image0
                    Rad Manposted 4 years ago in reply to this

                    Much like the Mafia, except their threats are real.

                  2. soldout777 profile image60
                    soldout777posted 4 years ago in reply to this

                    here we are not talking only about Christians , but whoever believes God exist.That includes the muslims, hindus, ...as well.

                    Atheist are considered by them as someone who has little knowledge, but not willing to accept their weakness, so they continue to boast about it till they die. I am sure you don't want  to be one of them.

              3. soldout777 profile image60
                soldout777posted 4 years ago in reply to this

                If you are doing the right thing, He will not judge you guilty. So why are you so afraid?
                maybe you want to do something bad, that is the reason you don't like the idea of someone up, looking at you?
                B e good man, He will reward you...

                1. A Troubled Man profile image60
                  A Troubled Manposted 4 years ago in reply to this

                  But, we are not morally bankrupt, hence we do not go about doing good things in order to get rewards.

                  1. soldout777 profile image60
                    soldout777posted 4 years ago in reply to this

                    oh well and good..

                2. JMcFarland profile image89
                  JMcFarlandposted 4 years ago in reply to this

                  where on earth did you get the notion that we're afraid?  We have nothing to be afraid of.

                  1. soldout777 profile image60
                    soldout777posted 4 years ago in reply to this

                    this is a reply to the previous post ''

                3. jonnycomelately profile image85
                  jonnycomelatelyposted 4 years ago in reply to this

                  Ooooh! Yeah, let's  think up something real bad, Man!

                  Soldout, you do talk so much nonsense..... but I love the entertainment.

                  1. jonnycomelately profile image85
                    jonnycomelatelyposted 4 years ago in reply to this

                    You must forgive me folks for being a bit late in replying to all these novel christian posts of Soldout77.  Being on the opposite side of the world, all your discussions get to me next morning when all you people are probably in bed.   There was a huge backlog of posts when I checked in first thing this morning (Monday).  Wishing you all a good, prosperous and happy week.

                  2. soldout777 profile image60
                    soldout777posted 4 years ago in reply to this

                    Oh yeah, many of us here do that.. Not a new thing man
                    it's funny how you said,
                    "Yeah, let's  think up something real bad, Man!"

                    Let us all try to come up with something good, ..

                    I think I have been too harsh, well, I’ll try to change that, so that this discussion is constructive not destructive..

      2. Claire Evans profile image90
        Claire Evansposted 4 years ago in reply to this

        How do you suggest God eradicates all suffering from the world? As for the rest of your comment based on Epicurus, I'll repost the comment I made to Zelkiiro:

        Yes, He is willing and that is why He gave us His son so that sin can be forgiven and that disables evil.  The question is are we willing to prevent evil?  Evil comes from Satan and people enable him. 

        So the point I'm trying to make is that God can prevent evil but are people, whom God has given free will, willing to prevent evil? Why put the onus all on God when people give Satan power?  Epicurus completely omits the power of Satan and who it is people that are responsible for evil in the world. 

        So what can God do? As mentioned, He can defeat sin by saving us or He can just turn us into robots that can't think for themselves so they can't be tempted to do evil.  Who wants that? You can't love a robot.  Why would God want robots?

        And never forget that God suffers the most.

        1. profile image0
          Deepes Mindposted 4 years ago in reply to this

          Well, Claire, the first thing we have to know, figure out, and agree on is the question of whether God interacts with our physical world, first and foremost.

          If the answer is no, then your question basically does not have an answer other than to say he can't (or doesn't choose to) eradicate the suffering in the world.

          But if the answer is yes he does interact with the world, then by virtue of our Christian belief in that he is all knowing, all powerful, etc it could be reasoned that God would know how to eradicate all of the suffering in the world and do it in a manner that proves his existence to all. Now this is only in reference to the suffering (disease, starvation, etc) in the world.



          If you read my post again, my comments weren't based on Epicurius. I mentioned that Zelkiiro mentioned Epicurius as part of my comments (which were actually based on conversations that I have had with atheists). There is a difference. I was answering your question based on what I have learned from atheists, not my own personal beliefs.

          ,



          I agree that God gave his son so that sin can be forgiven, but God giving up his son does not disable nor prevent evil. It counters evil by giving those of us who try to live good lives but mess up (since we are human) at times a chance to go back and correct said mess ups. But, on the other hand, there will still be those that will do wrong regardless, and so evil is not disabled   




          To answer your first question, yes, there are people are willing to do what they can to prevent doing things that are considered evil. Things that are immoral may not necessarily be considered evil. The purpose of God sending his son is to save those who aren't evil by nature, but that make mistakes and sometimes bad decisions. Though people are willing to prevent evil, they are only to avoid and prevent evil that they themselves do. We cannot control the actions of others (though there are some that seek to do so). So the answer is really yes and no. We can prevent ourselves from doing evil things, but we cannot prevent all evil because we cannot control others.

          To answer your second question, The onus is on God, but not simply because of people giving power to Satan. The fact of the matter is in remembering who Satan was before he was cast out of heaven. Satan had power long before people started giving him power. Satan is more powerful as a being that human beings are and as such we cannot defeat him by ourselves and we believe God to be more powerful than Satan, so why would we not call on God to help us deal with something that is more powerful than we are?



          You are talking about two different things. Sin and evil. He set a contingency plan to save us from our own sins should we choose to accept it, but what about the evils and sins of others that would harm us? If someone attacks you, but I save you from them, do you become a robot? Turning us into robots is not a viable option that would stop us from doing evil. What stops us from doing evil things is the moral and ethical code that is supposed to be within us that tells us an action is wrong and our critical thinking skills to assess whether we want to follow that moral code or not.



          You see, Claire, there is more here in question than the existence of God.  Of course, we have the atheists that say there is not enough evidence to support the existence of God, the agnostics that say they don't know and may never know and the Christians that say there is God. The real question and issue here is whether or not God interacts with this physical world or not. We have some churches that teach that he does interact with this world exactly the same way he did in the OT, but because of our sinful nature he doesn't want to help us because we have to prove ourselves to him. On the other hand, we have other churches that teach that he does not interact in the physical world because Satan rules the earth. As a result of this contradictory teaching, we have people that will thank and praise God when something good happens (most of which are very mundane and do not require divine intervention), but excuse him when bad things happen by saying it's our fault or that Satan is in control here (which are the times when divine intervention is needed).

          If there is going to be any real and effective change in this world and an end to the suffering, starvation, etc in the world, as the human race, those that seek to do good and live a good life for all will have to come together and work in unity to get this done (regardless of beliefs, or lack thereof).  In Christianity, what we have to do is come together and decide what we are going to believe. If we decide that God does interact with the world like in the OT, then we need to come together on one accord and call on him to go ahead and move off the throne to stop the suffering and counter the evil that comes against his people. If, on the other hand, we realize that God does not interact with the world the same way as he did in the OT, then we need to come together, pull up and tighten our boots and do what we can do for ourselves and each other.

          But the ultimate key word in the whole situation is unity.

          1. JMcFarland profile image89
            JMcFarlandposted 4 years ago in reply to this

            this was brilliant.

            1. profile image0
              Deepes Mindposted 4 years ago in reply to this

              Thanks, JM

              1. JMcFarland profile image89
                JMcFarlandposted 4 years ago in reply to this

                i'm impressed.  Seriously.  You taught me something today.

                1. profile image0
                  Deepes Mindposted 4 years ago in reply to this

                  What did (or could possibly) I teach you?

                  1. JMcFarland profile image89
                    JMcFarlandposted 4 years ago in reply to this

                    you continually shape my new experiences with Christians, along with Mo, Melissa and others.  You show me what it's truly like to be a good person, regardless of what you do/don't believe.  You give me hope, and you teach me constantly to not give up.  thank you.  From the bottom of my heart.

            2. A Troubled Man profile image60
              A Troubled Manposted 4 years ago in reply to this

              Agreed. The Padawan is learning.

              1. profile image0
                Deepes Mindposted 4 years ago in reply to this

                I wouldn't totally praise me yet. I actually agree with a lot of the points you and other atheists raise (which is why I still engage you all) but a lot of points you guys bring up actually help to solidify my current beliefs (I know I know.. confirmation bias), but I still agree with a lot of your points because it mirrors my thinking regarding organized religion

                1. A Troubled Man profile image60
                  A Troubled Manposted 4 years ago in reply to this

                  Could I ask if those particular points that help solidify your beliefs are ones you are willing to discuss?

                  1. profile image0
                    Deepes Mindposted 4 years ago in reply to this

                    Certainly, and to be honest ( so to speak), ATM, our conversation the other day regarding that I wasn't wanting to discuss over HP had nothing at all to do with you. It really didn't. I think someone else pointed out for me that sometimes it is difficult (for me) to keep track of some things when 6 or 7 people are trying to weigh in (especially when there are those who will attack me, blast me, condemn me, etc) for my beliefs. Ironically, this has more to do more with my fellow believers than atheists. I  have stated several times that you and I have had good conversations and I am willing to discuss things with you. There are some instances that I prefer just talking about some things without others weighing in on a conversation that they do not understand because we have a unique communication style with one another