...and so, we come to this point of reference.
We can gather from massive ranting atheism is much a splinter faction, due to its roots in Christianity.
But the question comes to mind, IS atheism attempting authentic Judaism?
Well, what is an authentic "Judaist" and what is an "atheist".
According to the Lifestyle of authentic Judaism, there is/are no G/gods.
According to the lifestyle of Atheism, there is/are no G/gods.
According to the Lifestyle of authentic Judaism, there is a moral responsibility to self, to the collective and to the One who is all things.
To the Judaic, the OWIAT [ the one who is all things ] is not a god and each person is --by conscious action -- responsible void of any doctrine.
To the Atheist, collectively, the OWIAT [ the one who is all things ] is not a god and each person is --by conscious action -- responsible void of any doctrine.
2nd equal point.
According to the Lifestyle of authentic Judaism, there is no afterlife.
According to the lifestyle of Atheism, there is no afterlife.
3rd equal point.
Both are void of indoctrination.
A 4th Equal Point.
The former was transformed by an indoctrination defined as Lawful Judaism aka Jew. The later was transformed by an indoctrination defined as Christian.
So, is Atheism trying to recreate authentic Judaism, by rejecting Christianity as a doctrine, and seeking the former lifestyle of Judaism, where no G/gods existed, no law existed, less one key of Judaism, which seems very important: Walk With Me.
This point Walk With is defined, in Judaism, as a UNITED RELATIONSHIP with TOWIAT v a personal or social necessity to love, adore, worship, believe in, adhere to the rules of. ( i.e. Mosiac Law --Lawful Jew, My Savior, My G/god )
My first major point is on why you consider Atheism to be a splinter of Christianity. Atheism is a lack of religion, a denial of religion, a view that religion is as much tripe as the tooth fairy. Any person from any part of he world can choose to consider teh facts and figure out that God doesn't exist.
I can't argue with you on the roots of Judaism - I simply do not know enough about it. However my understanding was that it was a monotheistic religion based on the 10 commandments given to Moses. Beyond that my knowledge of the Jewish people is that they tend to have hot ladies, a good worth ethic, and a fantastic sense of humor.
And finally Atheism is not trying to remove law or create lawlessness, it is merely pointing out that laws are created by man, not god. Each man can create moral boundaries and men should enforce those that best benefit everyone.
Hello James. Long time no see! I hope you're well. This is a very complex subject that you've brought up. I am not clever enough to debate it probably, but I will say that many consider that this new atheism has its origins in the Puritans and Calvinists who stripped Christianity back to a religion of entitlement; that is to say, one in which only a chosen few have a chance at getting into heaven. It wasn't Christianity at all since a universal God and human free will were not part of it. You therefore had a religion, in the same way that atheism is a religion, which is essentially godless, based as it is, more in cultural practice than God.
ello me love!
Yes, Long time.
I was on holiday.
What's news across the pond?
It's been winter for about four years now. It's blooming freezing lord love ya, but hey, mustn't grumble.
As for me, I'm practicing my wiggle to play Marilyn Monroe in the theatre next week. How random is that!?
I hope your holiday was nice.
I have just been watching QI, which tonight was about the Puritans. It included surprising information, including the fact that the image we have of them, wearing a tall black hat with a buckle in the centre, was actually created in the 19th century, and that such hats didn't even exist.
In addition, it was mentioned that the idea that the Puritans left England for the New World to flee religious persecution is in fact not the case. They actually wanted to persecute others, including the Quakers, but were prevented from doing so in England, so left to found their own colonies, where they could do so. It seems history, is not always as we have been taught.
After some of the responses and interpretations here of ancient Judaism, including the reference to Talmud law, I'm beginning to wonder if you might be correct in your comparison after all, James.
It is not so far fetched, after all.
and it is one thing that seems to be a genuine happening amid the atheist ideology/belief. Albeit very scattered and unorganized, but nonetheless, a collective similarity. Should it 'pull itself together' atheism just might establish a new form of Judaism. If it can 'get beyond' itself, it might have a chance at the original lifestyle of humanity --that authentic Judaism I mentioned.
A friend and I agree it is possible. She being an atheist by title, a hedonist by trade; convinced atheism is attempting, or at least fixated on, an Democritus approach to living. Because of the notion "you can't take it with you", she thinks the selfishness of that statement is changing to a more positive note. She and I agree, according to the Judaic lifestyle -not the Jewish Obligation- that 'heaven on earth' or 'covenant promise' was strictly an earthly pleasure/gift, to be enjoyed now -without over indulgence.
Many atheists I know, constantly complain about a lack of this 'Democracy' and hedonistic reward, because of the rules/greed/solidarity applied from whichever religion.
From the original 'Christian' perspective that lifestyle is unending; one with no lack; one that does not necessarily involve departing this world to enjoy endlessly.
There is no G-d in Judaism? Are you kidding? If there are any common beliefs among Jews at all, that would be the one. It is the essence of the Shema. Because our understanding of G-d is not nearly as anthropomorphic as Christians doesn't mean we don't believe in G-d, or that we think G-d is us.
That said, atheism is acceptable in Judaism and we don't take issue with either Jews or non-Jews not believing in any higher power. About 10% of American Jews do not believe in G-d and they're not considered heretics.
Most Jews also believe in an afterlife, only hinted at in the Torah, but expounded on by the prophets. Again, our understanding of the afterlife is not nearly as concrete or as detailed as the Christian/Muslim one, nor as exclusive, either.
But, like atheism, lack of a belief in an afterlife is acceptable in Judaism.
I'm not sure I understand most of the rest of your post.
I will say that Jews and atheists tend to sympathize with each other, since we're both religious minorities that Christian fundies insist are going to hell. We don't take issue with atheism, and since we don't proselytize, most atheists don't take issue with us.
I think jacharless may have met atheist Jews, and believes that all are therefore atheists. Judaism seems to be unique amongst the religions, in that Jews who don't believe in God, but are of a Jewish heritage, still consider themselves to be Jewish. In this respect, it seems to me as an outsider, that Judaism is both a religion and a people. Certainly people who were once Christian, but are now atheists, would no longer describe themselves as Christians. Neither would Muslims or Hindus or Sikhs. It can seem confusing to people who are not Jewish, and therefore see Judaism as simply a religion, that atheists will still refer to themselves as being Jewish. It seems to be more of a cultural identity, than just a religion.
Yes, that's true; furthermore other Jews will consider a Jew who's atheist to be Jewish still, too. Judaism has never been a religion of belief, so your membership into the Jewish nation has never been a question about what you believe. It's different with dogmatic religions such as Christianity and Islam; belief is what defines you as a Christian or Muslim, not so much your behavior.
But being Jewish is like membership into a family: if you're born into it, or if you are formally accepted into it, then you'll always be a member of it.
But being Jewish is like membership into a family
This is what my grandmother used to tell me. However, I've always struggled with this, because neither am I jewish by religion or immersed in Jewish culture. I can, however, see how being immersed into one, which may be also be disconected from the other, can define "Jewishness"
It is a completely different way of looking at things. Calling Judaism a family is the closest analogy; calling it a religion is accurate but brings in a lot of incorrect assumptions based on people's familiarity with the way Christianity works.
There are many christians though, who may define themselves as christians, however, just like secular Jews, are immersed into the culture far more than the religion. From my point of view, Jewishness can be a form of "social cohesion and solidarity" In the UK we are far more secular as a society. When applying for a job, many will say they belong to C of E or Catholism, however, they will not attend church or mass, but will celebrate Christmas and Easter, their children will be confirmed. I think Christians do not always recognise that "within" Judaism, the same can apply.
For me personally, I suppose I have struggled with my "Jewishness" I was born to a woman who was born a Jew (according to my grandmother this was a big deal) Because I have never been fully immersed into Jewish culture or religion. So, I've always struggled with my "Jewishness"
Yes, that makes sense. According to Jewish law, despite your lack of familiarity or identification with Judaism, you are still a Jew. Secularism and Judaism are not mutually exclusive to most Jews.
Of course, if you have no interest in being considered Jewish, you don't have to self-identify that way. What others consider you doesn't have a whole lot of consequence if it contrasts with the way you see yourself.
I was not raised with much more than knowing I was a Jew. Living in New York probably gave me more of a connection to it and we did have the traditional Rosh HaShana - Passover family meals. It was not until I became a Mom myself that I started to learn about what it means to be a Jew. As I am a true believer that in order to know where you are going its a good thing to know where you are coming from.
There is an amazing book called "Listen To Her Voice" - If ever you wanted to know a little more about your Jewishness that might something that may interest that side of you a little. . .
For me it's been rather complex. My maternal grandparents Jewish, my paternal grandparents Catholic. There was a lot of ho-ha when my mother and father got together, with both sets of grandparents not willing to accept the others partner,so much so that niether my mother or father spoke to their parents for several years. And, both converted to the Church of England( they were married in a protestant church, however, they didn't attend church) I think it was a love story for my mum and dad. So, despite the complications with regards religions, I was not raised in any religious way. I do think the book sounds quite interesting though, I'll look out for it.
Ahh, the holidays are coming. That wonderful time of year where people sometimes exchange heavy spiced cakes containing nuts and candied or dried fruits.
So nice to get a head start.
this is so ridiculous to say atheism is the new Judaism...Jews believe in God and are very religious..how racist can this philosophy be?
Atheism : the new Judaism
Moses received Law from the Creator God; and he believed in the Creator God; there is no truthful Judaism without him;so the hypothesis is incorrect; atheism has got nothing to do with truthful Judasim.
Moses did believe in "a" G/god --in fact many G/gods, as was the custom of Egypt.
BUT he DID NOT know TOWIAT and he even said it, many times.
This is why when he went to the mountain, he didn't understand the voice speaking to him.
From Adam to Moses there was NO GOD in Israel, yet Israel still was.
translation: there were NO Jews, but there was Judaism.
where do you come up with this information.
But let me rephrase:
Until Moses handed down the Law/Rules, Israel never Titled or claimed "a G/god" to themselves. They lived a lifestyle. That lifestyle is defined as Judaism, as from the tribe of Judah the example of living was established.
Many documents reflect this --including Torah.
Jacob who was named Israel; was believer in ONE Creator God:
1 AND now thus saith the Lord that created thee, O Jacob, and formed thee, O Israel: Fear not, for I have redeemed thee, and called thee by thy name: thou art mine.
2 When thou shalt pass through the waters, I will be with thee, and the rivers shall not cover thee: when thou shalt walk in the fire, thou shalt not be burnt, and the flames shall not burn in thee:
3 For I am the Lord thy God, the Holy One of Israel, thy Saviour: I have given Egypt for thy atonement, Ethiopia and Saba for thee.
4 Since thou becamest honourable in my eyes, thou art glorious: I have loved thee, and I will give men for thee, and people for thy life.
5 Fear not, for I am with thee: I will. bring thy seed from the east, and gather thee from the west.
'Shema Yisrael Adonai Eloheinu Adonai Ehad'
The Shema is an affirmation of Judaism and a declaration of faith in one God. The obligation to recite the Shema is separate from the obligation to pray and a Jew is obligated to say Shema in the morning and at night (Deut. 6:7). It is the first prayer that a Jewish child is taught to say. It is the last words a Jew says prior to death.
Interesting story ..
In 1945, Rabbi Eliezer Silver was sent to Europe to help reclaim Jewish children who had been hidden during the Holocaust with non-Jewish families. How was he able to discover the Jewish children? He would go to gatherings of children and loudly proclaim Shema Yisrael ― "Hear O Israel, the Lord our God, the Lord is One." Then he would look at the faces of the children for those with tears in their eyes ― those children whose distant memory of being Jewish was their mothers putting them to bed each night and saying the Shema with them.
What is your definition of these following terms:
in the context of your point here?
Moses believed in only ONE Creator God:
4 Hear, O Israel, the Lord our God is one Lord. 5 Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with thy whole heart, and with thy whole soul, and with thy whole strength. 6 And these words which I command thee this day, shall be in thy heart: 7 And thou shalt tell them to thy children, and thou shalt meditate upon them sitting in thy house, and walking on thy journey, sleeping and rising. 8 And thou shalt bind them as a sign on thy hand, and they shall be and shall move between thy eyes. 9 And thou shalt write them in the entry, and on the doors of thy house.
'Atheism is, in a broad sense, the rejection of belief in the existence of deities. In a narrower sense, atheism is specifically the position that there are no deities. Most inclusively, atheism is simply the absence of belief that any deities exist.' - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atheism
That's it. Very simple. And it's not new, it's very old, ancient, I may say.
I am astounded at the level of ignorance in the elitist community.
Jew is NOT the same as Judaism.
Can an Atheist a former Christian, Jew, Muslim, Hindi? ABSOLUTELY.
A Jew is one who has left Judaism to follow Moshe or Mosaic LAW.
Being Jewish is religion same as being Christian.
Authentic Judaism is COMPLETELY different.
Authentic Judaism has NO requirement to believe in G/gods nor apply ANY Laws, save a personal responsibility toward humanity and self.
Authentic Judasim is damn near altruism.
Please, educate yourselves.
PS Stacy, Racism comes from religion -be it science or sensation. But that's for another time. A true atheist would accept all humanity no matter their preference -aka become authentic altruist. Unfortunately, like their former religion of choice, they are exceedingly racist, anti-semitic, etc.
And yes, it is a sad thing.
But based on the aforementioned, one can compile that having splintered from Christianity, since the mid 1920s, atheism is leaning toward Judaism simply be its modus operandi. One might also realize it is only in the last 60 years that atheism was spawned full force --precisely the same time fundamental Christianity was spawned full force. Coincidence? I think not.
Well, part of the problem is the inscrutable way you write, James. I'm sorry, but most of your posts make little/no sense to me.
So explain what "authentic Judaism" is and maybe what it's called by people other than yourself. I'm Jewish and have never heard of the term.
And to suggest that atheism is some specific movement that broke off from Christianity during a specific period makes no sense, either.
I love nuts!
No, seriously, if a person is nonsmoker, it does not mean he ever smoked before. If you are an atheist, it does not imply that you ever believed before,or that you are a nasty person, rasist,dirty, etc.,etc. Anti-semitic??? Give me a break, please. All Nazis were deeply religious people, they religiously burned jews (and others for a good measure!) in concentration camps during the war.
I am leaving this thread, too ridiculous.
Let me back up, just a moment, to clarify.
a. In no way am I berating atheism, which is quite often the assumption of people. I am merely expressing an interesting parallel between two things. I am not implying right or wrong, good or bad. So, to those 'defending their belief of atheism', please accept the previous as what my intention is.
Now, I note in two replies the use of Deuteronomy. This compilation was scripted by Moshe AFTER the Law was applied --not before. Wavegirl is correct, the Shema is the affirmation of LAWFUL Judaism aka a Jew. It is an OBLIGATION or REQUIREMENT as many religions require a set of rules, practices, prayers, actions, even sanitary/health/scientific method.
It is also in here the Term/Title of "One God" begins to appear. The obvious reason is because the many tribes adopted countless practices from other tribes which are termed pagan or ba`al. According to Mosaic Law (aka Lawful Judaism) ANY Titled deity outside of the "One God" was deemed pagan or false.
Prior to Deuteronomy, there is no name/title attributed to 'Creator', yet Adam, Eve, Cain, Abel, Abram and many more examples knew and understood or "Walked With". It is after the establishment of Lawful Judaism that titles were applied/enforced, along with strict rules. It is believed these rules, practices were set in place because people were unable to "Walk With", as noted by the many adherences to other ritual practices.
But, Judaism was not a Lawful practice nor a ritual belief system, like being Jewish or Christian etc. In fact it was 'nuts' to even consider doing such things. The lifestyle of Judaism is reflected by Abram and others who did not belittle themselves by engaging in such ideologies. They were much more valuable, intelligent and understanding, to lower their standards, to ritual ideologies. It is this attribute defined by modern Christianity as Faith. An attribute that emphatically results in righteousness --without law/rule/ritual systems of equation or sensation. And that is very interesting. Why? Because modern atheism is broadly expressing a righteous ideology --an immovable righteousness without rule/law/ritual practices/ beliefs in G/gods, etc. Same as Judaism.
So, my notation of Atheism leaning toward Judaism is made.
I see atheism in the stage of breaking out of ritualism, breaking character, the norm, the expected, the redundant. However, there is a huge level of arrogance in it, no doubt because of its youth. Yet, noted, in both the 4 similarities. It makes for an interesting study. and it lends a question: is atheism leaning toward Judaism, is it in fact a new form of Judaism and will it result in the original social attribute of "Walk With" aka "Practical Faith".
Well, I disagree. Judaism is still very much about laws and behavior. The law continues to explicitly evolve - "Torah is on earth, not in the heavens" - which is why practice has radically changed over the past 2500 years, but it should not imply that we've thrown law and ritualized practice out the window. It's just that that law and practice have been communally decided to be different than they were before. (But some traditions have stayed the same for over 2000 years, but that's because the community of Jews has decided they want to retain them)
The commonality I would see with atheism and Judaism is that belief is really unimportant: what you do is what matters. (OK, there are some "evangelical atheists" that think belief is very, very important, but I think they're in the minority, and insisting that others abandon their beliefs is probably more about catharsis and purging the indoctrination they grew up with.)
If the Bible does not mentiion a name of the Creator God; it is the mistake of the scribes; people in India, Iran and other societies have names of the Creator God in their own languages; the Creator God always existed and had names revealed to them by the Creator God.
@jacharless: Anthropological speculation about original Jewry and Judaism is fun, but it's not nice to pretend that this speculation is historical fact.
The original Jews were probably polytheistic, and Judaism as we know it today probably developed only after Judaism adopted monotheism. There is no "authentic" Jewish lifestyle, nor has there ever been. There are no "authentic" Christian, Muslim, or Hindu lifestyles, not have there ever been.
Likewise, there is no "authentic" atheist lifestyle.
However, all beliefs systems are shaped to some degree by indoctrination, except that we usually call it enculturation.
All of your points depend on the acceptance of spurious premises.
I am merely using historical documents to form a critique.
But, I agree, "authentic" is a powerful injection.
From what I am gathering, "authentic" Judaism precedes polytheism in the region or at least was parallel to it -case in point: Enoch's writings. Mosaic inception would be the formation of monotheism, aka Jewish Religion or Lawful Judaism, yes.
But gain, reversing the polarity is what atheism appears to be doing. As more than most atheists have come out of Christianity, in the last century alone, it makes one wonder if ahteism is turning back to said lifestyle, abandoning mono & poly theism and its parts. If yes, it would then become that "authentic Judaism", less the attribute of "Walk With".
A huge percentage (most?) modern atheists seem to emerge from Christianity. Christianity creates them, apparently.
As an aside, are you aware of the huge number of atheists emerging from Hinduism?
That is very interesting about Hinduism.
And yes, modern atheism (1001-2011) is very closely tied if not the children . offspring . direct descendants of (failed) Christianity in some form be it the Church of England, Reformed Church, etc.
I do find most Lawful Judaism believers ( aka Jews ) do not struggle with their beliefs as much and are very adaptive to social changes, more than other primal doctrines, perhaps because of that Judaic foundation, from which the religion came. The rate of atheists from Jewish is nearly zero.
There you are right; it is because of wrong creeds invented by Paul , like Trinity, son of god, Jesus dieing for salvation of others; Jesus being a god etc, etc; all non-sensial beliefs invented by Paul and Church.
Do all Muslims believe that the most sacred tenets of Christianity are nonsensical? Just the Ahmadiyya's? Just you?
Yes, all Muslims with reasons and arguements from Bible, from Quran from History.
So, what you're saying is that throughout all of history and in accordance and agreement with the Quran, ALL Muslims believe Christianity is nonsensical.
Just wanted to confirm. Thanks.
I'm sure ALL Christians will be pleased to read that.
Truthful Christianity is based on what Jesus did and believed; this has nothing to do with Catholics, Protestants, JWs ,Moromons etc 32000 + of them; none of them following Jesus and Mary.
It's actually more pleasing than the intermittent claims of parallelism between Islam and Christianity.
It is wrong; other ancient civilizations had their own lifestyles.
I never went in to Christianity, neither did most of the people I knew back in England.
Do you have some sources on Judaism being a non religion? I do find it interesting and would like to read a little further, but I can't find any real information on it.
I asked an israeli friend and she told me that Judaism was the belief in their God, however many Jewish people do not actually believe in a creator.
I feel as the same applies to Christianity, but they have a more 'closet' non belief in god in their religion.
Judaism is a religion, but it isn't only a religion. You can be a religious Jew, you can be a social Jew (everyone else perceives you as Jewish, but you aren't, necessarily) you can be non-Jewish but FEEL Jewish, you can arguably be ethnically Jewish... there are quite a few variables.
And that, I think, is where the muddle is.
Judaism is technically a lifestyle.
And that lifestyle does not dictate do or do not, like "being jewish".
Judaism as a religion IS based on doctrine: Mosaic doctrine, including the 613 laws, method of prayer, how to act socially, personally, morally, ethically and with it the reward or anti-reward. That is called Covenant. I wrote about this once, that Covenant pertains to good/evil, pro/con, light/dark, bless/curse. Covenant falls under a religious scope, whereas Walk With or Agreement did not and does not have such things. In fact, such things hinder, belittle --even bastardize-- the lifestyle and its value, simply by application.
I see much similarity with Christianity, its core idea was from the lifestyle and not the religiousness of being 'jewish'. In fact, many a battle occurred between 'jews' and early 'christian-jews' because of that very attitude of exceeding law and rule for the lifestyle; exceeding g/Gods. Because according to Judaism (lifestyle), no g/Gods are permitted/required: because the 'One Who Is', cannot be belittled to a g/God-like status, like an angel, statue, star, man-in-the-sky, thunderhead, etc.
That is one of the biggest issues between Jews and Christians; Christians and Christians. Yet still why many, many Christians follow the Jewish practices, covenant material and commands to the 'letter'. It is also where Christianity fails as a lifestyle and becomes a religion. Christianity's core idea supersedes the Mosaic law and covenant. It has done precisely what is written of regarding pre-Mosaic inception. It then became a ritual practice, absorbing the elements of Lawful Judaism adding extra fire-brimstone concepts, for good measure and social 'order'. Like Lawful Judaism, in order to 'get into heaven' you need to become a 'jew' or be 'circumcised' aka 'christian'...
Is this, perhaps, why the mass exodus (pardon the pun) from Christianity to Atheism?
In all seriousness, I believe atheism is looking for that key; that lifestyle approach, but is lacking the very core of the lifestyle itself --practical faith, practical altruism, unconditional 'love' so to speak. This is what separated Abram and others from "being Jewish".
Nope. Rebellion is the reason for the so-called "mass exodus" from Christianity to atheism. Yes, atheism is looking for unconditional love, plus unconditional salvation. They have one of those. God gives everyone unconditional love. It's His judgement they balk at. Because that isn't unconditional. Go figure. I thought you knew this, James.
I never was part of an "exodus". I never had any religion at all, in spite of my parents small efforts to put it in me.
Remember, the difference between us is only that I believe in one less god than you do.
Would you laugh if someone told you that Thor loves you very much? See, we agree on that much..
Eh...if Thor looked like the guy in the new movie by that name, then I'd smile! hahaha. But for sure Thor can't save my soul. Remember his father kicked him outta the palace.
Ok. Will you try to remember that your imaginary pal is no different than Thor? I didn't rebel against it any more than you rebelled against Thor or Ra or any other fictional god-thing. Just like you, I never believed in Thor or Ra. Unlike you, I realized the thing they were trying to sell in church was every bit as silly.
All is well?!
I do not think 'rebellion' from Walk With/Agreement is what atheism is doing. More so, a rebellion from the doctrine, practices of Christianity. 99% of former Christians I speak to, all have the same response: the lifestyle and practices of Christianity do not make sense and the (lack of) evidence of the 'Christian g/God' caused them to depart.
Ask any atheist --even agnostic-- and they will tell you flatly: 'If the Christian g/God is real, and reveals himself (within the parameters of the doctrines mandate), they'll immediate believe. Yes? But, the irony is, they would believe and become apart of the doctrine.
note, this argument existed between Moshe and the Hebrews and again between the Sanhedrin & Immanu El, Stephen, Petra, James, John, etc. The later argued for the lifestyle while the Lawful argued for the doctrine --that only in the doctrine of 'being jewish/circumcised' could one become righteous; only in the doctrine of Christianity can one become righteous.
And yes, I agree atheism is seeking that unconditional lifestyle, same as I believe many Christians, Muslims, Catholics, Jews, etc are. But I also believe they are looking for unconditional absolution instead of salvation.
Yes all is well; thanks for asking.
Umm let me qualify that. All is not well; never is in this human life! But it is well with my soul. And fairly well with everything else...
So, you think many Christians are seeking unconditional salvation? Is that what you mean? In which case, you're talking about universalism or some similar religion?
Well, this adds more to the relevance.
If you have to 'do this' and 'not do that' then you have a doctrine.
That doctrine is what is being rebelled against.
As said, the core lifestyle Judaism & Christianity is/was the same.
Both were replaced by 'Lawful', in spite of Christianity's emphasis on unconditional salvation, love, peace, etc.
If there are conditions, then man has control, can be self saved, self righteous. But, the lifestyle states there are no conditions. If true to the core, everyone has been given salvation --apart from 'lawful deeds', 'lawful actions'. Judgement is now preserved for the wicked (unlawful). So judgement only applies to the Law.
But the lifestyle has no law/restriction, it has a single complete & consuming attribute: Walk With Me. The Action of Practical Faith. This is what "authentic Judaism" is/was. This is what Abram and others did that made them 'different' from being 'jewish' and what made Immanu El different from being 'jewish' or 'christian', yes?
Not so. Judas walked (literally anyway)with the Lord, but ultimately he made his own choice that led to his demise (both spiritually and physically).
So, even the "walk with me" concept leaves us with our own personal choice. Until we die. That's not "self-saved". Your view leans toward Calvinism (or the wrong interpretation of it). ?
See, 'Walk With' is Faith, practical faith.
This is why before Moses, many are attributed this.
As myself, Livelonger and Wavegirl seem to be agreeing on, the "need" to believe is redundant. Believing in or not believing in, is simply rebellion of doctrine.
What matters is the application of practical faith. It is ridiculous to 'believe in g/God' in Judaism, as it implies there is something or someone else apart from 'Creator'. Even further, believing does nothing, it is an empty vessel.
Again, I attribute Abram. He believed THE PROMISE and that promise became his focus or better said became his reward, a reward he melded with. No where does it mention Abram ever "believed in" or "disbelieved in" Creator -that would be ridiculous. Even at many intervals of 'rebellion' not one Hebrew would even think of the notion of 'believe in or not'.
Atheism, I think, is trying to break out of that empty vessel mentality. Admittedly, in a very odd way. But teenagers tend to do off-the-wall things to get to a particular place. lol. Ultimately, they --and all other doctrines-- must shed this belief idea. As I have said many many times, it is inevitable. It certainly doesn't mean they are going to 'hell' or not going to 'heaven' because they rebel against the doctrine, it just means they have a longer road to understanding that attribute of Walk With.
PS. I think you are implying consequences, Brenda, based on a paradox of lawful-faith? Because, no where does it mention Judah/s did not receive the promise of salvation. In fact, the text says long before mankind 'sinned' salvation was promised to all. Salvation was inevitable. But what that salvation IS and what it is being interpreted to mean is cause for another discussion altogether, yet applies to the why the mass exodus is happening.
Yes, in Judaism you're not required to believe in G-d, but you're required to walk in G-d's ways (it says this several times in Torah). This is what Jews interpret to mean following the obligations of the covenant: doing good deeds.
We don't think believing in G-d is pointless, but rather that it's not required to be a righteous person. However, most Jews still do believe in G-d, although not generally in the same way that Christians do.
That is what I meant.
"Walk With" is the core of authentic Judaism.
"Abide by the Law" is "being Jewish".
Even still, you and I agree, most Jews believe far differently in 'Creator' than Christians. In fact most Muslims I know, believe much like Jews -regarding Creator- and not at all like Christians.
If one "needs to believe" then they are not Walking With, they are adhering to the rules -because they are rules- and rules must be followed.
Walking with G-d is the same as fulfilling the commandments of the covenant, at least in terms of Jewish thought. I'm not sure I see the distinction you're trying to make. Do you mean people who are inclined to do the commandments anyway, without feeling some sort of external obligation? Or that there are other good deeds that are not incorporated as part of the covenant?
Certainly, a person can 'do the commands' having never heard them or seen them --and definitely without any external feeling or compulsion as an obligation. An obligation would make it religious or ritualized. I am inclined to think this is what happened to people between Adam-Moshe. The problem arose as people further indulged other concepts, ideas, practices and slowly 'forgot' the commands in them.
Am I suggesting the commands are intrinsically born into humans? Yes.
And should the Christian account be correct, then they are in fact written on the human heart, woven naturally into everyone and will naturally be kept without effort when a person reaches the place of Walk With v causality. In essence the commands are apart of them already; they cannot add to them nor separate themselves from them, no more than they can add to Creator or take away from Creator; nor can they add to righteousness or take away from righteousness; nor can they separate themselves from creation; the blessings; salvation. It is all apart of them. ( unless humans find a way to separate themselves from, well, themselves. lol. )
Although we all do have a thing called a conscience, I don't think the Bible says God's commands are automatically written on the human heart, nor are they kept without effort. (Do you forget a little thing called temptation?)
The Bible says God will write His laws upon our hearts. Will. When we're open to Him. When we're born again and living our lives for Him.
"the word (my laws) is very near you;
in your mouth and in your heart so you may do it." ~ Deuteronomy 30.14b
That was over 5000 years ago, Brenda.
Unchanged since the foundation of the worlds.
The ruach that is and made all things hasn't changed.
It is still in you and is you -no matter how you strive for 'causality'.
You cannot add nor take away from it.
You cannot join nor separate anyone else to/from it.
You change it, add to it nor take away a single yod from it.
No one can.
Ruach IS salvation -established before the beginning of creation.
Ruach is the alef-tov; alpha-omega.
Walk with IS salvation because there is nothing hindering the flow of ruach.
This is why religion exists, a lack of that understanding.
Albeit, as LL said, Jews are much more 'in line' and 'obedient' than Christians, but what they fail to see and Christians fail to see is both are equally righteous with effort. Why? Because all humans were righteous before they were born, before the Adamic Inception, before the law, prophets, etc.
And nothing -nothing you, any other Christian, Jew, Atheist, Muslim, Hindi, Buddhist, Ba`al etc can ever do to change that. The only thing they can do is fight over who is more religious and be completely consumed by their own minds, until they seize to exist.
It says the commands are "near", yes.
If you'll notice the succeeding verses, God tells us that it's a matter of choice, that people can turn away from His laws.
Yes, so near in fact:
a.in your mouth
b. in your heart
-can't get any nearer than that. lol. It is already done, already written since before the foundation of the worlds, yes?
I think that's a romantic thought, and something I think everyone would like to believe. I just don't think it's true. I think human beings tend to be selfish and will serve their own needs before everyone else's, and need to be taught through repetition and requirement how to behave correctly. You see this with children. Most children who grow up to be good people were trained on how to be good people by their parents/guardians.
The proof I personally see is that, frankly, Jews on the whole behave much better than do Christians, despite Christian doctrine around love, grace, tolerance, etc. That's because without any enforced behavior, people do exactly what you say they do: they indulge in their own (personally convenient) definitions of what's considering loving, graceful, tolerant, etc. That's probably why you now see Christians at the forefront of demonizing minorities such as gays and lesbians, and Muslims, and inventing "prosperity gospel" and other types of ethos that run completely counter to Jesus's basic message. What's to stop them? Christianity says you can be an awful person and still enjoy the riches of heaven; belief is the only thing that really matters.
It'd be fantastic if everyone were internally impelled to act ethically. But empirical data and what we understand about our own primal natures suggests that those people are a rather small minority. Laws ensure that people do not do bad things (or else they face consequences). And doing lots of good things, whether by internal impulse or some other sort of external force, slowly and unconsciously makes you a good person.
Understand that I'm a Jew by choice: I was raised Christian but converted to Judaism in large part due to this very matter. I firmly believe that behavior makes you the person you are, not the other way around.
Again, I must disagree.
Christianity does not say you can be "an awful person" in the way that you implied, and go to Heaven. And it isn't just believing. It's making a choice.
And it's the Torah that specifically condemns homosexuality, as does the New Testament also.
And....I don't think converting to a religion is that simplistic anyway, Jason.
There are certain criteria that have to be met before anyone can "become" something else. Maybe I've misunderstood this, but seems to me that you (and James?) have been saying that a person can "become" a Jew or become someone of a different religion just by saying you want that label. If it were that simple, then a person could put a corn label on a can of peas and it would become corn. But we know that when the can is opened, it'll still be a can of peas.
With religion, the criteria is either works-based or heart-based or a mix of both.
Are you saying that becoming a Jew is simply a matter of Nationality? In which case, that's impossible too, unless you actually go live in that Country and become a lawful citizen there...
From what I understand, to be a Christian, you must accept Jesus as your savior, and most Christians would say you have to be baptized, too. That's what it takes to be a Christian. Most would say that's all that's required to be "saved" too: it's called the sola-fide doctrine, and it's what sets you Protestants apart from your Catholic brethren.
Judaism works differently. You must be born a Jew (i.e. to a Jewish mother) or convert through a formal process that conveys community approval. You can not convert yourself or declare a statement of faith by itself. Jews are a communal people, a family.
About homosexuality: we (as in you and I) have discussed this at length. Suffice it to say that Judaism does not uniformly condemn homosexuality. Lev 18:22 is increasingly understood to apply to male cult prostitution, not a blanket condemnation of homosexuality, among Jews. Even very religious Jews understand it this way, or else they think, like many of the other mitzvot, that it only applies in very, very, very specific circumstances (like only for men, only for in the land of Israel, etc.)
I know that that will not dissuade you from lambasting homosexuality every chance you get, but you're an evangelical Christian so you apply your own understanding to the text which can be completely different from the Jewish one. This is not uncommon.
"Israel", "nation of Israel", etc. are terms that can mean Jews. In English, "nationality" and "citizenship" are basically synonymous, as are "nation" and "country." In other languages, they are distinct concepts. "Israel" like in the Shema, is talking to the Jewish people, not the modern state of Israel.
Does that formal process require you to state your allegiance to God?
It requires affirmation of joining the Jewish people, the sincerity of which is judged by a Jewish court (beit din).
Most conservative/Orthodox conversions also require knowledge of and acceptance of the obligations of Jewish law, which does not require affirmation of the belief in G-d. Again, an allegiance to the obligations of the covenant ("walking with G-d"), not necessarily a belief in G-d.
That said, as a convert myself, I'm not sure why you would bother converting unless you believe in some Jewish-affiliated conception of G-d, but that's just me.
Abraham couldn't have believed in the Promise if he didn't believe in the Promise-keeper!
Umm, I don't think you're getting my meaning.
Abram didn't "need to believe". A need to believe implied he was not Walking With.
Him "believing" the Promise is something entirely different.
A promise is a thing and Abram could take it or leave it; but he could never take or leave the One who is all things.
Hmmm this one I cant agree with you on .. many Sabras I know are not religious, that does not mean that they are not Jewish or that they do not believe in Hashem. I think I once read that about 55 percent of Israelis consider themselves traditional.
Fact is in Judaism there is only One G-d. G-d is the Creator. We often use the Name "Hashem," when referring to the Creator.Important to note that when Jews pray we pray to "the name". It is not proper to pray to anyone or anything else, nor is it permissible to pray through anyone else.
Yes, nicely said. Atheism is okay - you can not control what you believe, and doubt is not frowned upon in Judaism - but you can not subscribe to another faith.
There is no mitzvah requiring belief, but there is a mitzvah forbidding belief in other gods or praying to idols.
So, atheist or agnostic Jews are acceptable according to the normative Jewish hermeneutic; Christian or Muslim Jews, not so much.
And Judaism as it's practiced in Israel runs a full gamut. Being a secular Jew doesn't necessarily imply that the person is atheist, but rather that they're not traditionally observant.
LiveLonger hit it spot on
"Torah is on earth, not in the heavens"
I would love to know where in the Torah you find this?
and where is it that LiveLonger says;
He mentioned the Jewish "nation" in a previous post. I'm confused about his meaning myself.
As far as the other question, Leviticus 18: 22.
i am having trouble finding this, from what are you referencing?
The Torah (Old Testament)Pentateuch First 5 books of the Bible. Genesis Exodus Leviticus Numbers Deuteronomy.
again i ask you .. where exactly.
I originally asked you from WHERE IN THE TORAH does it state this? I dont see it there.
As per previous post, it's Leviticus 18: 22.
why cant you reference the exact words you are implying?
She'll end up using the King James Version (i.e. early modern English and Protestant Christian translation) which sounds like a clear condemnation of homosexuality.
Naturally, the original Hebrew is considerably more vague.
Why can't you look it up? Either in a Bible or online. I'm sorry if I've got the wrong impression, but are you just trying to turn this into a big argument?
I am certainly not trying to turn this into anything other than what it is.
You make a reference and can not back it up.
I have to agree with LiveLonger
And yes Judaism is a family, a clan, a tribe . .call it anything you want. Etz Chaim!
And for me and those before me, Judaism holds a basic tenet .. it is called tolerance.
And with mankind you shall not lie beds a wife/woman. It is a despising.
Crystal clear, huh?
And in the countless cases reviewed in the Talmud, curiously not a single prosecution of someone for homosexuality. Even though the rule is supposedly clear as day. To evangelical Christians.
Atheism has roots in Hinduism too, which is ancient religion still alive on this planet. Connecting atheism with Judaism sounds like OP never considered earlier religions other than Abrahamic. Looks like yet another bait thread.
Hinduism is not as old a "Lawful Judaism".
The 'authentic Judaism' referenced precedes even that, making the oldest recorded lifestyle ideology in human history.
Hinduism, to my understanding, was spawned by a collective of weaker North African tribal beliefs, those of Southwest Asian and Lower Persian region, long after the Egyptians established their cities.
Queen from Sheba, who fell in love with Solomon the Hebrew, and bore the children of Ethiopia, is noted as having established some of the first Hindu philosophies. It makes sense given the time and Trade Routes around the area. More recently, Yemen & Oman, have been included as part of her territory --just a boat ride from the Indus River, where Hinduism was said to have been born.
As for 'Abrahamic', there was no such religion. In fact there was no established or organized religion, in the Judaic accounts from Adam to Moshe. This would include Abram, Solomon, etc.
If you go through the different religious book and study this question deeply, you will find out that Hinduism is the oldest religion of the world. There are no dates and facts, but its history is about more than 50000 thousands years ago.
http://wiki.answers.com/Q/What_is_the_o … _the_world
I have just read a topic on another site, entitled, "Are Atheists the New Jews," and wonder if this may have been where the idea for this forum topic came from. The article mentions how the Roman Catholic Church has throughout its history been very anti-semitic, but that to be openly so today would not be acceptable. It then goes on to say that the Pope seems to have turned instead to a condemnation of atheists. It gives the following quote from a recent speech made by the Pope:
"The enemies of religion…see in religion one of the principal sources of violence in the history of humanity and thus they demand that it disappear. But the denial of God has led to much cruelty and to a degree of violence that knows no bounds, which only becomes possible when man no longer recognizes any criterion or any judge above himself, now having only himself to take as a criterion. The horrors of the concentration camps reveal with utter clarity the consequences of God’s absence."
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