Faith and Atheism

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JMcFarlandposted 11 years ago
I wrote a hub on how faith is not required in order to be an atheist. Someone requested that I turn it into a forum thread as well. My position is that atheism, by definition, is the lack of a belief in a god. Therefore, faith is not required. The common dismissive quote is "it requires more faith to be an atheist and believe in evolution than it does to believe in a god". Nothing could be further from the truth. You don't have to accept evolution in order to be an atheist. Atheism addresses belief. An Atheist does not have a god belief - they have a lack of belief. Gnosticism addresses knowledge - an Agnostic would say that they have no knowledge of a god. Therefore, the fundamental position remains that atheism does not require faith at all. Only Theism does.
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  A Troubled Manposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  That would be the result of childhood indoctrination in which the capacity to reason, to think critically and logically are never developed and instead replaced with things being taught without question or critique, to be accepted absolutely, thus creating a mind that only works on the concept of beliefs.
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  JMcFarlandposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  I agree. I've run into a lot of people recently who have gone to the old standby "there are no atheists in foxholes". I know a lot of military personnel who have no belief in a god, and they do just fine - even in the face of potentially life-threatening situations. I don't understand how an argument from ignorance or incredulity equates naturally to everyone else - regardless of what they do or don't believe.
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  aka-djposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  This has to be one of the stupidest appraisals to date I have read!!!!
  
  You mean to say, that once a child is indoctrinated, they can never become an atheist?????
  
  Daaahhhh.
  
  Honestly!!
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  A Troubled Manposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  It's interesting how you managed to glean that conclusion from what I said, but far more interesting to accuse me of actually stating such a conclusion. Curious behavior.
  
  Yes, a child can indeed break their indoctrination, it only takes but the using of their brain to do so. There are many who have, they are here on these forums and may even be happy to share their stories with you of how it happened.
  
  For the record, I have never called any of your appraisals stupid let alone "stupidest"
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  aka-djposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  Perhaps you need to re read what you actually wrote, not what you MEANT.
  "That would be the result of childhood indoctrination in which the capacity to reason, to think critically and logically are never developed and instead replaced with things being taught without question or critique, to be accepted absolutely, thus creating a mind that only works on the concept of beliefs."
  
  So, your above rebuttal is contradictory to this, earlier post.
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  A Troubled Manposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  No, it isn't contradictory.
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  Rad Manposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  I am one of those people, but I've told my boring story before, all that is needed is the seed of doubt and courage.
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  aka-djposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  Atheism is also broken down to two groups, with distinctly two forms.
  
  One, as you stated, a lack of belief in (a) God.
  
  The other
  
  A belief that there IS no god.
  
  The one point that most, if not all atheists refuse to acknowledge, is that to live as a human requires faith. Period!
  What the object of that faith is not the point.
  This makes it a NON religious term. It seems every time the word "faith" is mentioned, it is automatically assigned a religious connotation, (exclusively).
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  A Troubled Manposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  Personally speaking, that is not how I operate, so it would appear the term 'atheist' does not refer to me.
  
  Sorry, but that is entirely false. But, it would make sense that you would make that assertion based on the fact religious indoctrination trains the brain to comprehend the world through the use of belief systems rather than reason, logic, facts, evidence, etc.
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  aka-djposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  So, what does? Agnostic? You don't ever leave room to be convinced of there being a God (as an agnostic would).
  
  The one point that most, if not all atheists refuse to acknowledge, is that to live as a human requires faith. Period!
  
  How so is that entirely false?
  
  You mean to tell me that you drive a car on the busy highways, totally without faith? You have no facts to prove to you that today, a drunk driver won't run into you, and kill you. You simply believe that todays trip will be like all the previous ones. Which is both logical, reasonable and faith inclusive.
  
  Have you, personally, conducted every scientific experiment that is required to accept all those "laws and truths" that you hold, and prove them yourself? Or, like most people, you LEARNED them from someone who taught you? If you learned from others, then you used FAITH. You actually believed something that someone you respect told/taught you.
  
  Not sure if you are married, but lets assume you are. Your wife arranges a meeting with you at a designated place, at a designated time. Do you go? Or, do you wait, call the owner of the location and ask them, "is my wife there?" If they say yes, you go, otherwise, you would only have her word to go on, that she will indeed be there. Is that not faith? Believing what your wife SAID!
  
  Oh, sorry. I may be getting too deep and technical here. Sorry.
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  Mark Knowlesposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  So - you don't differentiate between faith that your brakes will work because you serviced them and faith that you have chosen the correct Invisible Super Being from the infinite number of possible ones?
  
  Therefore all atheists who trust their brakes have the same irrational beliefs as you do? Is that correct?
  
  Or are you saying that not believing some one like you when you tell us there is an Invisible Super Being speaking into your head is the same as having faith in the nonsense you say you believe but don't bother following?
  
  Because I am confused. You must have gotten too deep and nonsensical for me to follow.
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  aka-djposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  Faith is faith.
  
  As I said, atheists deny this. So, you are a true atheist.
  And a righteous one at that!
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  Mark Knowlesposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  Never denied anything of the sort. But - I do differentiate between faith that my brakes will work because I serviced them and the sort of faith you claim.
  
  If we are not differentiating between reasonable faith and irrational beliefs in majick - sure - I agree with you. Pretty stupid not to do so though wouldn't you say? Bet you check that your brakes are serviced regularly rather than having faith in god - don't you?
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  Rad Manposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  What Atheist denies "faith is faith"? A dog is a dog. A pencil is a pencil. Did I miss something? You have blind faith there is a God, I do not. Some believers attempt to project there blind faith onto others to normalize the process, but believing in the super natural without any evidence is not the same as believing that your brakes will work because you just had them serviced. Claims that Atheists blindly believe in evolution is also not true because understanding evolution is not the definition of an Atheist. There are Atheist who don't understand evolution or don't believe it's possible.
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  A Troubled Manposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  I'm not convinced of a number of things people claim. You yourself are not convinced of things people claim, too. Seems we have some common ground here.
  
  Sorry, but that's just not true.
  
  I just explained, it's part and parcel to indoctrination.
  
  Of course.
  
  No, I understand there are bad drivers, drunk drivers and all sorts of hazards to we aware of on the road and must take all logical and reasonable actions to prevent being killed.
  
  Some of them, yes. Some of them, no. Have you conducted any at all?
  
  No, it's called understanding, I would not take any of them on faith or believe in them.
  
  No, that is an understanding that my wife will most likely be there, unless she is late or delayed in some way.
  
  Actually, your examples are rather elementary.
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  Thomas Swanposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  Except a lack of belief would also include agnostics, so no, that's not the definition I go by. An atheist is someone who believes God doesn't exist. That doesn't have to be faith... since when is a belief equivalent to faith? I believe it will rain tomorrow, I don't have faith in it...
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  JMcFarlandposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  Thomas, you're wrong. Gnosticism speaks to knowledge. Theism/Atheism speaks to belief. That would be why there are two different words, and not the same one.
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  Thomas Swanposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  Agnosticism means "without knowledge" not "without belief". I'm aware of that and wrote a hub all about it. You're missing the point.
  
  You have to differentiate between people who believe gods don't exist, and people who just don't believe in gods. Calling both atheists means that people such as myself get linked to a highly irrational atheistic belief (you can't prove gods don't exist). Agnosticism means without knowledge, but if you're a scientist (or a rational person), you generally don't believe in things you don't know much about. Thus, for a rational mind, a lack of knowledge leads to a lack of belief when there is a lack of evidence. I call this scientific agnosticism because a scientist doesn't believe what he doesn't know; it would skew his data if he did.
  
  I'm fully aware of how atheists are trying to "absorb" agnosticism into their belief system. I'm aware that atheists hate there being a middle ground. They hate being made to look extreme, because they enjoy claiming to be the bastion of science and rationality. For as long as people who hold a belief in the non-existence of god want to call themselves atheists, I will have to call myself something else. I will not be associated with such hypocrisy.
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  JMcFarlandposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  that's what I JUST SAID. "gnostic" addresses knowledge, while atheism/theism speaks to belief.
  
  these kinds of generalizations drive me crazy. Atheists aren't trying to "do" anything. We're not all the same person with the same mind with some crazy hidden agenda. In fact, i'm an atheist agnostic. So don't lump all of us in together and make sweeping judgements about a group of people who only have a lack of a belief in a god together. It's ridiculous, and it's part of the reason that atheists have such a bad connotation among the theists.
  
  Atheists don't HAVE a belief system. There's no dogma, no tenets, no nothing. Some atheists are pro-life, some are pro-choice. Some are pro-equality, some are not. Some are democrats and some are republicans. The only thing that all atheists agree on is a lack of belief in a deity. Do you KNOW any atheists? If so, how can you not know that?
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  Thomas Swanposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  No need to get angry, I was repeating it to make the point that you don't have to explain it to me. Give the caps lock a rest...
  
  You're wrong. I'm not lumping everyone together. I'm trying to separate irrational believers in the non-existence of gods from people who have no belief. If you still want to call yourself an atheist, that's your call. Personally, I'm not happy to call myself an atheist when irrational believers in the non-existence of gods call themselves the same.
  
  Again, wrong. Some atheists have a belief system, some don't. Some have a belief that gods don't exist, some think having that belief would be ridiculous. This is why they shouldn't all be called atheists, that's the point...
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  VeritaLiberatore7posted 11 years agoin reply to this
  Mr. Swan you call it in most cases correctly. We must all remember that belief, fact, knowledge of, in God is all based on Faith! No matter what anyone says without Faith you will never know God or a higher power if you are seeking one! Also without a spiritual wanting to be more than you are as far as God . You will never know of or be part of his realm. But this is all and completely depends on the person! To be an atheist is a choice just as being a lesbain is as i just sw someone say. The reason why this person has no belief in God is because if they did being this way would not be permitted. Nor accepted. Oh yes so many are trying to make it that love is love no matter hwo you look at it. But that is not love in the Godly way! People as these know its wrong and believe in only one thing in most cases. Themselves! Its all they can believe in to be honest a lifesyle as that is less than right!
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  Thomas Swanposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  But it's relative. Some beliefs require very little "faith", some require a lot. There are two factors affecting this: the strength of your belief, and the evidence for it. Christian beliefs are strong beliefs with very little supporting evidence, so they require a lot of faith. The belief that it will rain tomorrow is not strongly held, but seeing as it's rained for the past week (in England), there is evidence this trend will continue. It requires very little (or no) faith. So yes, without faith you'll never know God in the same way you'll never know the tooth fairy.
  
  A "spiritual wanting be to more than you are" is a psychological disposition to believe in ourselves having favorable attributes. Have a look at something called "The Optimism Bias". To provide an example, scientists told people that the risk of them getting cancer is either higher or lower than they thought. The people who were told it is higher were more likely to ignore the information. The people who were told it is lower were more likely to remember the new information. This is the optimism bias in action. We believe things that make us feel good, and this spiritual wanting you're talking about it just that.
  
  It depends on your definition of an atheist, but a lack of belief is not a choice. You are born an atheist (without beliefs), after which you can choose to believe in god, or choose to believe that gods do not exist. In my case, you can remain neutral and not subscribe to either belief. Unfortunately, atheists who formed a belief that gods don't exist want to claim me as part of their pseudo-religious cult, which is why I take issue with them.
  
  I believe in myself. I won't delude myself by believing in more when it's not obvious I should. Would you believe you're a good person, who will live forever in god's presence, who is protected here on Earth, who knows the answer to the meaning of life, who knows his purpose in life, who knows the path to a better life? Assuming you're religious, I guess you would believe all that. It must be very comforting for you. If I needed comforting, perhaps I would believe it, but I don't.
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  VeritaLiberatore7posted 11 years agoin reply to this
  I'm not asking you to believe in God or believe in anything period. I'm stating a fact for myself and for others which whom live as myself and whats more interesting we are no religious! I've been a Pastor for over 25 years and have seen and expierenced God in all walks of life. I very much believe in myself lets get that understood now. The spiritual wanting as you say it is not my way. A spiritual life is a choice. I am probably one of the strongest men I have ever known. I'm not the kind to just believe. It has to be shown to me. I need proof to have any kind of belief! As far as supporting evidence I have all needed. I have seen God when I had the near death expierence. It wasn't a dream, a ghost, a hallucination, a trauma, it was as real as the sun and moon! I expierence his Spirit and was given another chance in life!
  As far as Faith in life. Faith to people who believe is a gift. I had never had this before this happened. All i ever believed in was myself. I'm sorry I don't want my legacy to be he lived his life believing in nothing but himself! You will never know what your missing till at least you try living as I do. I'm not saying you should but know what? It couldn't hurt you to find out! At the very least the worst that can happen is you stay as you are. But the best that can happen is a way of life you never would have known unless you tried. People do it everyday. It is a way to find a comfort you never knew existed. And if by chance it made you better than you are, and gave an outlook on life, love, happiness and a better understanding of yourself. Why not try? You sound a smart person. You have some good points. But know what? SO DO I!
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  Thomas Swanposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  Don't worry, I'm not some atheist who despises you for trying to convert everyone. That's just another example of atheist hypocrisy. Everyone tries to get others to agree with them, atheists more than most.
  
  Near death experiences will cause you to desire an afterlife, leading you into religion. There is clear evidence that images of death, threats to one's well-being, or any anxiety causing phenomenon will increase religiosity. I don't want to dash your belief, but that is scientifically known. It's just another example of "spiritual wanting" as you say. I have no doubt that it looked and felt real to you. but for lack of a less offensive analogy... patients at the insane ayslum think their experiences are real too (sorry, blame Nietzsche).
  
  Again, you didn't want that as your legacy, so you believed in something "greater". I think once you understand that your personal desires have influenced your beliefs, you'll understand yourself a lot more. That's just my opinion.
  
  The way you talk of religion is the way addicts talk of a drug. You won't know what you're missing until you've tried it? Both are ecstasies I'd rather avoid.
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  A Troubled Manposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  Yes, that's what you want to believe, but unfortunately, that isn't the case. You did have a hallucination based on trauma to the brain. That's it.
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  VeritaLiberatore7posted 11 years agoin reply to this
  The only thing that is known about an atheist is that the belief they have is less than nothing in most cases. Yes i know many who don't believe. But than again the reason why you don't believe is completely apparent. The only true belief system an atheist has is none!
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  The0NatureBoyposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  Faith and belief are 2 different things. According to the Bible faith is finding substance and evidence to support beliefs while belief is accepting a obtained concept with any proof. If an Atheist wants to be recognized they need to have found substance and evidence in support of their views, otherwise, they are no better off than Christians who believe only because it is written but has nothing, logical or evidence, to support it. Knowledge concerning any subject gives substance to it.
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  JMcFarlandposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  you have it backwards, friend.
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  The0NatureBoyposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  Please show me how, I'm willing to learn. I made a typo in belief's definition, it should have been accepting obtained concepts without any proof.
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  riddle666posted 11 years agoin reply to this
  Good, first things first. Try to use black ink, not crayons.
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  Rad Manposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  ha ha ha... made me laugh. He will not respond correctly because you asked him to try. He clearly likes being told what to do so next time be more forceful.
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  riddle666posted 11 years agoin reply to this
  I'll have to use blue!
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  A Troubled Manposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  What's with the blue?
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  The0NatureBoyposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  I really approve of the color of the sky, it's also used as a symbol for black but if people don't like it I'll use black.
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  Rad Manposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  Blue is used as a symbol for black? Please explain.
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  The0NatureBoyposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  In the Hindu religion blue is sometimes used to represent black, that's why Krishna always appear blue.
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  Rad Manposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  Sorry, I'm trying to wrap my little head around using a colour to represent another colour (or in this case black which is actually not a colour but the absence of colour). As an artist this is confusing to me, no disrespect intended.
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  VeritaLiberatore7posted 11 years agoin reply to this
  Faith and Belief.....Lets look at the realities of these words and the truths andf lies people here have used to make themselves look as if they knew something.
  Belief-
  : a state or habit of mind in which trust or confidence is placed in some person or thing
  
  : something believed; especially: a tenet or body of tenets held by a group
  
  : conviction of the truth of some statement or the reality of some being or phenomenon especially when based on examination of evidence
  Faith- Allegiance to duty or a person. Fidelty to ones promises-loyalty belief and trust in a loyalty to God. Belief in the traditional doctrines of a religion. Firm belief in something in which there is no proof. Or in other words complete trust. Everyone has faith in something. Even atheists have faith. The Bible teaches to have faith in God. The world teaches to have faith in oneself. Evolutionists have faith in Darwinism although no one has ever seen evolution in progress. Christians have faith in God though no one has seen Him face to face. Not all faith is religious, although the strongest faiths usually are. I have faith that tomorrow will come. I can not prove it until then but I have faith that it will be there. I have faith in my God because I DO see evidence of Him. I see all the wonderful things He has created and I see answers to prayers. I see addicts overcome their addictions. I see people full of hate accept Christ and learn to love. "Faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen."...and YES that is a Bible quote but it is also a perfect definition of faith.
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  A Troubled Manposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  We see tens of thousands of children die of starvation every day. So much for your evidence.
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  VeritaLiberatore7posted 11 years agoin reply to this
  What are you talking about. I see thousands live and give because of love of a God also. Why are you on here., Your like a rock and without any kind of sense. Your name fits.
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  Rad Manposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  But how do you explain the ones that die? Is a starving child evidence of a loving God?
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  A Troubled Manposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  But, tens of thousands die of starvation, a prayer for a mere morsel of food. What are your prayers? Dear Lord, please find my car keys?
  
  Queue insults.
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  JMcFarlandposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  Actually, Faith by definition is believing in something without proof or justification for that belief. For example, look at what Jesus said to doubting thomas: John 20:29 NIV
  New International Version
  Then Jesus told him, "Because you have seen me, you have believed; blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed."
  
  Those who believe without seeing have FAITH that what they believe is true.
  
  Opposing faith is trust and belief based on rational evidence, study or knowledge. I'm an atheist, and I do not worship or have faith in Darwin. Darwin proposed the original theory of evolution, but science has grown much more since his time - and evolution is understood more now than ever, and it will continue to grow as technology advances. If you think that no one has observed the process of evolution, you have not even googled it. They prove evolution every day, and there are hundreds, if not thousands, of studies that show it in motion. I do not have to have faith in evolution to be an atheist. In fact, evolution has NOTHING to do with the origins of life as we know it, and even if it were proven incorrect tomorrow it would not make me believe in a god. In order for me to believe in god (again) I would have to be shown sufficient evidence to justify that belief (not faith) and the fact of the matter is that no such evidence exists.
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  VeritaLiberatore7posted 11 years agoin reply to this
  Well my friend I see you know little if anything about the Bible and its meanings. But as usual I see the same things here i see in most places where people have opinions. Opinions are good! It means you have an active mind. But an active mind which is closed to anything but its own ideas is a shame.
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  The0NatureBoyposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  Mu mind is more than just active but actively objectively reasoning with what is said & written. I left out the word out of the definition of belief, it should have been [b]accepting obtained concepts without any proof. There should be a way to preview before posting and I would catch such errors. y the way, I use the Old KJV Bible and not the others.
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  ib radmastersposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  Every one likes to put things into a pigeon hole so they can group everything. Well people are more complicated than the size of their pigeon holes.
  
  Faith is a tenet of religion, and without faith there is no religion. The reason for faith is that there is no proof to support the beliefs of the religion.
  
  For religion the split is those that believe in the God of the Old Testament, Jesus of the New Testament or both. So those people that don't believe in the biblical God, would be atheists.
  
  Not believing in the biblical God doesn't mean that you reject the possibility of there being a God,or Creator, it just means you need more than faith.
  
  Faith doesn't require the higher IQ of humans, as faith has no questions.
  Instead of faith non believers are using their analytical abilities to look for proof of God or a Creator. They are looking for answers to their questions about God and Creation. This is a better use of the higher intelligence of humans.
  
  We are like cats, we are curious and react to real things, while dogs have faith. So if humans were created to have faith, we would only need to be as intelligent as a dog.
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  JMcFarlandposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  or sheep, for that matter - like the biblical jesus claims that people are.
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  VeritaLiberatore7posted 11 years agoin reply to this
  And for a so called writer your what is called a fool Jesus never said people were sheep. You better go back to lesbianism you know more about that!
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  JMcFarlandposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  lol....and you have just proven that you don't know much of anything:
  
  When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit on his glorious throne. All the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate the people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. He will put the sheep on his right and the goats on his left. (Matthew 25:31-33)
  
  John 10:7 Then said Jesus unto them again, Verily, verily, I say unto you, I am the door of the sheep.
  
  Matthew 10:5-6
  These twelve Jesus sent forth, and commanded them, saying, Go not into the way of the Gentiles, and into any city of the Samaritans enter ye not: But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.
  
  Matthew 15:24
  I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.
  
  Shall I give you more? what DO you know more about?
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  VeritaLiberatore7posted 11 years agoin reply to this
  Lambs to so you know in the Bible means followers of God. But than again you knew that! Or maybe your not as intellegent as you thought you were or think you are. All i see in you and what you wrote is hate for God! You said the Bible is evil. No the Bible is a History of God and his people. Man throughout the Bible has been a rebel. He has caused his own troubles. Made his own bed and lied in it! Rell me with the bed your lying in how are the bedbugs? LOLOL
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  JMcFarlandposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  Is English even your first language? I know for a fact that I'm more intelligent than you - at least I can speak correctly. How do I have a hate for god when I don't believe in him? Do you hate the Easter Bunny? Santa Clause? The tooth Fairy?
  
  The god of the bible is evil. He sent 2 bears to maul and kill 42 children because they called a prophet bald. That's not a good god. Why would you worship that tyrant?
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  JMcFarlandposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  In Matthew 5:22, Jesus says, "Whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire."
  
  Hope you brought your sunscreen.
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  Rad Manposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  You seem to be taking care of things nicely here, no need for me today.
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  Motown2Chitownposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  Always a need for level heads and kind hearts, Rad.
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  Rad Manposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  Thanks Mo.
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  VeritaLiberatore7posted 11 years agoin reply to this
  No didn't bring sunscreen but you as a lesbian in the eyes of Christian people need more than a sunscreen you need to live in darkness and stay away from light....Oh wait i'm sorry you are living in darkness arn't you? A lie within a lie, a woman afraid to know the truth and take Bible symbolism and change it into your own ideals. Sorry i'd rather follow a God's ideas than a lesbians!
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  JMcFarlandposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  what does my sexual orientation have to do with my knowledge? I have proven to know the bible more than you do - you said jesus never called people sheep, and I gave you five examples right off the top of my head. It appears that this LESBIAN knows more about your religion than you do, and she's an atheist to boot. Maybe you should try READING your holy book - instead of just condemning others that you know nothing about.
  
  The quote I gave you is Jesus himself saying if you call someone else a fool, then you're damned. Apparently you don't take that particular quote to heart.
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  Rad Manposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  JM, clearly you don't need my help in this matter, but any hatred should not be tolerated.
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  JMcFarlandposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  agreed...now does this fall under the category of hate speech or a personal attack? *smirks*
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  Rad Manposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  I already reported. I've never reported anyone before, but that...
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  JMcFarlandposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  I appreciate it. Thanks.
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  VeritaLiberatore7posted 11 years agoin reply to this
  Ok let me explain the word Fool used CORRECTLY IN THE BIBLE. Funny many seem to fit you.
  
  Proverbs 18:2 ESV / 245 helpful votes
  
  A fool takes no pleasure in understanding, but only in expressing his opinion.
  
  Proverbs 18:6 ESV / 88 helpful votes
  
  A fool's lips walk into a fight, and his mouth invites a beating.
  
  Proverbs 29:9 ESV / 66 helpful votes
  
  If a wise man has an argument with a fool, the fool only rages and laughs, and there is no quiet.
  
  Proverbs 28:26 ESV / 61 helpful votes
  
  Whoever trusts in his own mind is a fool, but he who walks in wisdom will be delivered.
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  Proverbs 18:7 ESV / 48 helpful votes
  
  A fool's mouth is his ruin, and his lips are a snare to his soul.
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  Proverbs 10:23 ESV / 48 helpful votes
  
  Doing wrong is like a joke to a fool, but wisdom is pleasure to a man of understanding.
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  Proverbs 3:35 ESV / 30 helpful votes
  
  The wise will inherit honor, but fools get disgrace.
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  Psalm 14:1 ESV / 30 helpful votes
  
  To the choirmaster. Of David. The fool says in his heart, “There is no God.” They are corrupt, they do abominable deeds, there is none who does good.
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  Proverbs 9:13-17 ESV / 19 helpful votes
  
  The woman Folly is loud; she is seductive and knows nothing. She sits at the door of her house; she takes a seat on the highest places of the town, calling to those who pass by, who are going straight on their way, “Whoever is simple, let him turn in here!” And to him who lacks sense she says, “Stolen water is sweet, and bread eaten in secret is pleasant.”
  I have a million mor ethat come straight from the Bible. Your closed mind and ways are your undertaking. Not Gods your lifestyle is in complete exception to God!
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  Romans 1:26-27 ESV / 32 helpful votes
  
  For this reason God gave them up to dishonorable passions. For their women exchanged natural relations for those that are contrary to nature; and the men likewise gave up natural relations with women and were consumed with passion for one another, men committing shameless acts with men and receiving in themselves the due penalty for their error.
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  Romans 1:26 ESV / 8 helpful votes
  
  For this reason God gave them up to dishonorable passions. For their women exchanged natural relations for those that are contrary to nature;
  The last 2 explain just the way you believe. And you want me to listen to a person like yourself who turns truth into lies for her own self respect. I think not! Your path is like tunnel vision only 1 direction. And it isn't in the right dorection! You have come across someone that will not relent and let the 1 very important meaning of his life be dishonored by ...what did I say before...A FOOL!
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  JMcFarlandposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  oh NOW I know who you are. I have no need of you, and you've been reported. Again. I imagine that you're used to it.
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jacharlessposted 11 years ago
a. A/theism is still theism.
b. What one would call faith is simply "benign" Evidentialism - for or against a thing under scrutiny; to believe or disbelieve; to say it does or does not exist. Sorry to speak so flatly, but either side of ego is still called dogma, still called hate. Certainly and clearly, atheism has set forth a vision to balance the equation. Sadly, it is a futile equation to begin with. A mere fray from a thread amidst a beautiful, infinite universe of thought, which man did not create nor can he destroy -and is still enslaved by.

James.
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  JMcFarlandposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  how is atheism still theism? Theism has a belief in a god, atheism does not. They are contradictory. I don't know what it is that you're trying to say, sorry.
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  jacharlessposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  Precisely. They are polarized elements of the same object. For atheism to even exist, requires The Ism - well, better stated requires Theos. In this particular division of Theos, the concept of g/God is under scrutiny. many forget theology does not always include gods, although mythology does. by default, that benine Evidentialism is cohesive to both, and the many variations of sides of the object under scrutiny.
  Even the mere mention of a god exists or does not exist makes the observer a polarity. In essence, an atheist and a theist are identical. Now remove from the individual the entire consideration, idea, negotiation, etc of this part of Theos and no atheist nor theist exist.
  G/gods, no- gods are as said: elements of ego. Uber frayed information.
  James.
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  The0NatureBoyposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  I agree with your a but not your b.
  
  Traditionally, theism requires one to entice others to accept the concept of god while atheism works to convince them there is none, but there are theists and atheists who do neither, they only speak about their concepts when someone approach then with their god or atheist concepts.
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karthikkashposted 11 years ago
I for one don't believe that faith is not required to become an atheist. In fact, faith is firmly required to become an atheist.. However, the real question one should as is, faith in what? We all talk about faith, but the problem is that we look faith only from one perspective. And that is faith in god. For a person who believes in god, faith in god is required.

I don't believe in the traditional form of god (I am not an atheist but I am an agnostic). I was born a Hindu and in a fairly religious family. I was brought up with teachings that god comes on a vehicle, he has four hands, carries weapons in his hands and kills 10 headed demons. But I moved away from believing in god. Now, Christianity teaches that Jesus is the son of god. Islam teaches Muhammed was the prophet and messenger of god. Each has their own faith and the belief is strong. Even atheists and agnostics like me have a firm faith in something that makes us believe that there is either no god, or there is no enough knowledge to say whether god exists or not.
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  A Troubled Manposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  And, there you have it, faith in what?
  
  To become an atheist, one simply starts to understand things instead of having faith in them, it is the purging of that faith required in order to begin understanding things.
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  karthikkashposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  I think a typical atheist claims that god doesn't exist because science is everything. Now, we cannot be honestly sure whether he truly has faith in science or is it just a belief that he has faith in science, just like most of the god fearing people who have a belief that they have faith in god. An agnostic, on another hand, is a confused soul (just like me ). But again he has a firm faith that there is some superpower out there that cannot be really explained.
  
  I simply say that faith is a term used to mention "trust in something". And that something may be anything at all. It may be even a dog or an insect.
  
  And there is an invisible line between faith and belief. Faith doesn't need to have proof. You just trust out of your gut feeling. But belief is based on an evidence (any evidence).
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  A Troubled Manposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  It is neither, it is an understanding of science, faith is not required.
  
  But, it actually has to be something, as opposed to just a belief in something.
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  karthikkashposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  How did you learn science without faith in yourself or your teacher or even yourself? How did you pass your exams without having faith in yourself? Do you get the meaning of faith?
  
  Again, understand that I am not talking about faith as in god or divine. I am just talking about faith as in faith (and it could be even in yourself).
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  Mark Knowlesposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  So what you are saying is that faith in your ability to learn something is the same as faith in Majikal Invisible Super Beings? Therefore believing in majik is reasonable? Is that correct?
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  karthikkashposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  Nope. Having faith has nothing to do with being reasonable. Being reasonable comes out of knowledge and learning. Having faith simply means that you have faith in something. If you are religious, you have faith in god. If you are an atheist, you have faith in something that states that god doesn't exist. That's all.
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  Mark Knowlesposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  I see - so having faith in my ability to learn something based on the fact that I have successfully learned things in the past is not the same as faith in Majik, which is what you were originally suggesting?
  
  I don't have "faith" that your god does not exist at all. I simply don't believe it because the idea is outlandish, does not conform to reality and is not supported by evidence. This is a reasonable position that is not the same as your irrational faith.
  
  I understand you need to demean my ability to reason in an attempt to "bring me down to your level," and that is why your religion causes so many conflicts.
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  karthikkashposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  Now I am totally lost in what you want to convey When did faith become so complicated?
  
  http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/faith
  
  I don't know if the meaning of faith should be more complicated (or any more simpler) than this dictionary meaning. And I have absolutely no idea what reasoning, ignorance, blah blah blah has anything to do with faith.
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  Mark Knowlesposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  When you implied that all faith is exactly the same to defend your ridiculous beliefs.
  
  I don't have "faith" that your invisible Super Being does not exist. I take the reasonable position that you are speaking nonsense.
  
  Too hard for you to grasp? Or do you now agree that there are different types of faith? SOme based on observation and rational thinking and some based on nothing?
  
  Not interested in that garbage, liars for Jesus dictionary either.
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  karthikkashposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  Mark, my comment from the beginning made it clear that faith can be of different types. I never argued that all faiths were same. I just argued that faith was simply faith and nothing else.
  
  I wasn't sure which way you were taking it I think that your last comment just makes it clear that we both agreed that faith can be of different types, may it be based on observation, rational thinking or simple mumbo jumbo (psst.. I am an agnostic and I don't believe in any sort of religion whatsoever). I do believe that are somethings humans haven't yet decoded, that's all.
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  Mark Knowlesposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  Right. So faith is not simply faith. There are many different types of faith. Some are based on rational thinking, some are not. Sorry if I misunderstood you.
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  A Troubled Manposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  Sorry, but that's not how it works. You, for example, will make a claim that a particular god exists, but you have no evidence whatsoever to support your claim, hence your claim has no validity and can be ignored until you do provide some evidence. That's how it works, no faith required whatsoever.
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  A Troubled Manposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  I used what's called "understanding" rather than faith.
  
  Yes, I do, but most believers here don't.
  
  You're talking about faith as in confidence in something that has hard evidence to support it, yes? Like the sun will rise the next day kind of faith?
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VeritaLiberatore7posted 11 years ago
Well alot is being shown here i'm afraid. Let me explain if I may. True Faith is a gift! Yes a gift given by God! This is something I know because i'm a man of Faith. I received it in the service! There was a time when my beliefs were very much as yours! But after my death in Viet Nam {yes i said death } when i saw God my time of God began! When i returned back into my body i was considerably different. I believe this is called an out of body expierence. But not because of what i had just seen but because i was picked and given God's gift of Faith! Now please understand i'm not trying to change anyone but i'm trying to explain a truth about a very incredible word and gift known as Faith! We are all students of life and of one another. To have God in your life takes a very willing Spirit. Or in other words be willing to make a life change.
Now as far as knowledge enough to know a God or existance of a God, well you must be blind or not willing to look further! He is all around. But I do hope all find what they are looking for in life. But I do say this. I'm sick of atheists saying they don't like statues or religious ideals in schools. If it bothers them so much , look the other way! If you don't like Christian ways or thoughts its ok! Let us alone to love our God as we will and go on with your life! I will never condemn you for your not believing or lack of Faith. So let me alone with mine! I have and can answer all questions about Christian ways of life. I do know this. We as a people try to live a GOOD life! Do our best to live laws we believe and know God wishes us to live! Noone is perfect but we do try! So why condemn those who want to do good and live a life of good?
In ending i say to all.....May God be with you and yours and give you Peace this Christmas. In fact every day of your life!
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  A Troubled Manposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  Actually, it's a hallucination caused by trauma to the brain during your "death in Viet Nam"
  
  Yes, many who have near death experiences are changed, usually due to the fact that begin to value their time and realize how fragile they really are as humans.
  
  No, you are not special.
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  OutWestposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  So you now know about near death experiences? Or is this just another one of those opinions of yours?
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  A Troubled Manposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  Still unable to do any homework yourself? One learns things about the world around us when they do.
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  VeritaLiberatore7posted 11 years agoin reply to this
  We are all special. Now what i went through was it special? Yes I know it was. It isn't something many can say happened to them. Remember i'm not saying i'm better Troubled Man. Just saying what happened and that what you feel happened to me was wrong. What i said happened completely and without anything but what i said. Its too bad that people can't believe or maybe understand that what i said happened really did. Christianity lets all remember is a way of life also. A way that helps in continuing to do good and trying to be a better person. I want to live a life of no regrets, and i'm not interested in forging chains in my life that i have to carry ever. I feel it kinda funny that so many think i'm just imagining it. In being a Christian mankind is our responsibility. Being good to one another. I,m going to ask those please to do this. I'm a Pastor for many years. You as in many of you are saying I just imagined it. Making it up. And making fun of what happened to me. For all of you I say too bad your mind isn't open enough to accept something you don't understand. What happened changed a very unhappy abrupt man to a good man with ideals other than himself. So many here are trying to sound so intellegent, knowledgeable,about something that i have given my life for. The good of others and living that way causes many to retreat. Probably the best thing you can do is try to understand it! Maybe just maybe i can show you something about yourself you may not yet know. I want to thank all for the comebacks. Merry Christmas all!
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  A Troubled Manposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  And, when everyone is special, no one is special. Understand?
  
  Yes, many people experience brain trauma due to injury, and wind up hallucinating, just like you did.
  
  Sorry, but a brain undergoing trauma is not a brain functioning correctly compared to before the trauma.
  
  Yet, that is something we rarely if ever observe, usually the opposite.
  
  You most likely are.
  
  No, it isn't, being faithful and obedient to your god is your responsibility. Mankind does not need your god.
  
  Sorry, to hear that.
  
  You didn't really imagine it as much as you hallucinated due to your condition at the time.
  
  But, we do understand, it is you who doesn't.
  
  So what? That proves nothing.
  
  That's no ones fault but your own.
  
  I seriously doubt that considering you don't appear to possess the capacity to even know something about yourself.
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  twosheds1posted 11 years agoin reply to this
  Which god did you see?
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  Rad Manposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  What would be interesting to me is if a person came back from a NEAR death experience and had experience something other than what they were raised with. For example, Joe Smith (a christian) has a heart attack and the doctors revive him. When he wakes he proclaims God told him he had it wrong and the muslims have it right and Jesus and Mohammad were both just prophets. Or even better, he wakes and claims Hindu's have it correct.
  
  That just doesn't happen. The sub-conscious mind is very powerful and creative. The oxygen starving sub-conscious must be overwhelming.
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  wildernessposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  You're right - that would indeed make a much stronger statement, wouldn't it?
  
  Maybe it doesn't happen because only Christian believers have a pipeline to the only true God and He won't talk to anyone else.
  
  Or, just maybe, it all comes from the sub-conscious as you say.
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  twosheds1posted 11 years agoin reply to this
  I wondered that too. I did a Google search for it, but couldn't turn up anything. I expanded it to include any Hindu who had a Christian revelation. There are plenty of stories of conversions, but none who had revelations on their own.
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  Rad Manposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  The conclusion is then that a near death experience is an experience of an oxygen starving brain and not a connection to anything spiritual. However that logic will be lost of believers because of their want for an afterlife supersedes their need to see reality.
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  Motown2Chitownposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  Rad - sorry, guys, this is off topic - regarding publicly funded Catholic schools in Canada...does the Church enjoy the same tax exempt status in Canada as in the States? If so, how can it be publicly funded - even in part?
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  Rad Manposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  Yes the churches don't pay property tax. I think that is what you are asking. As for the school boards, they are funded by tax dollars (property tax), not of course any Catholic organization.
  
  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Separate_school
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  Motown2Chitownposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  Interesting. Very different from the establishment of Catholic education in the States. Catholic schools here are entirely different; funded entirely by the churches that establish them and the tuition paid by their students (parents). Public funds are completely designated for public schools, which of course, prohibit the instruction of any religion.
  
  It is no secret here that many Catholic schools provide high quality education, often superior to even the best public schools, but the teachers who choose to teach in them make a fraction of the income paid to public school teachers, and of course, have no union ties.
  
  Thanks for the info.
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  Rad Manposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  We also have many private schools for just about every faith imaginable and of course secular private schools. I don't think it should still be this way and most likely it's on the way out. It started when the vast majority were Catholic and hasn't been fazed yet. You'd think others would complain, but they don't because the school is so heavily regulated that there is very little different from the public schools. By keeping the private school private they are in better control over what they can do. Although on private Muslim school got in trouble a few years ago by advertising on there own wet site that they preach hatred towards Jews.
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  twosheds1posted 11 years agoin reply to this
  Indeed.
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VeritaLiberatore7posted 11 years ago
Agreed but there is another form of many don't talk about. I have been counceling many families and people of all ages and walks of life. Those who don't believe are those doing something they KNOW is not right! Now in Romans it explains that knowing it is wrong is a kind of acceptance in God! So you see that knowing right from wrong, good from bad, is an acceptance. If you know your way of life is wrong your not going to say you believe in God! Than you are saying your a liar, or living a lie. Its much easier to say i'm atheist. Than in your mind what you rae doing is right! In your mind! So your putting yourself over right by saying my choice is right!
Ways of life today are in complete contrast to Gods ways of life! People want to live out their lives their own way. Without a God to stop him or institute an idea in their life! Lets remember that religion is man's invention. Not God's. God lets people make their own mistakes. It how we learn to live. But its what we do with what we have learned that makes it all right of wrong! Look let me give you an example. If you go to a rose bush and see the thorns knowing they hurt if you touch them and do it anyway. Well you have noone to blame but yourself. You knew better! Now take the innocence of a child. They know nothing about a rose bush except its beauty. When they reach for it they feel a thorn for the first time! Well i'm telling ya its gonna be some time before that child does it again! But adults are not as smart as some kids. They know its wrong not matter how many times they have been hurt, they continue to reach for the bush. Knowing full well that life is like that bush!
All know theres a God or supreme being. But according to their life style if it doesn't agree with it they say they are right in the way the live. Peoples stubbornness or how can i say this as kindly as possible. Peoples refusal to believe in anything but themselves is their downfall.
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  foryourhealthposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  I have been reading " The Power of Your Subconscious Mind" by Dr Joseph Murphy. He explains the Subconscious Mind as a universal life force that is within all living creatures.It is the driving force that keeps you alive.
  If you cut yourself.The wound heals even if you don't believe in God.
  
  An animal get injured.It heals itself with out any religious beliefs.It just accepts the life force within it will heal it.
  
  This life force works no matter what you believe.
  "The law of life is belief. What do you believe about your Life and the universe?" "It is done unto you as you believe"
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  Mark Knowlesposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  The healing power of is the the body has nothing at all to do with the subconscious mind. There is no "life force," there are natural healing processed involved.
  
  Didn't understand your last sentences. Sounds like gibberish that directly contradicts your earlier statement that a wound heals itself whether you believe in majick or not.
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  A Troubled Manposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  Sorry, have you never heard of "Cicatrisation", which are the four phase the body undergoes when an injury occurs? The first is hemostasis in which the wound begins to clot and stops bleeding. The other phases are complex biochemical reactions that repair the damage.
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  foryourhealthposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  All life is programed to strive for survival.Who created that program?
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  Mark Knowlesposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  Life did. Without it, life would not be.
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  getitriteposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  And who created the creator of the program? I am sure you have an answer for that as well.
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  Rad Manposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  You've asked a good question, but you've just asked it as if you know the answer. You see it not who created the strive for survival it what created it.
  
  Evolution answers this question perfectly. You see, the ones born without the strive for survival don't survive leaving the ones that do strive for survival to create the next generation of those who strive.
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  A Troubled Manposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  No "one" created any programs.
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VeritaLiberatore7posted 11 years ago
Oh no opinion it really happened
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Sooner28posted 11 years ago
As a kind of sort of atheist (which all of my hubs show if you care to doubt me), I think this idea that atheists try to pull when a theist claims they have "faith" isn't successful.

Even if every argument for theism, thus far presented, were to fail in establishing a theistic God, it would not necessarily follow that God does not exist. A 6 month old "lacks a belief in God." That's not what atheism is. You very much hold a belief either that the theistic version of God does not exist, probably doesn't exist, or that we can't know (agnosticism).

Furthermore, there must be a positive argument in favor of atheism in order to actually call oneself an atheist. Most atheist philosophers use the "divine hiddenness argument" to do just this. After showing that the theistic proofs are inconclusive or not plausible, then the atheist asserts that God is a being such that, if God exists, his existence would be much more obvious than it currently is. However, his existence is not obvious. Therefore, God does not exist.

I don't mean this to be insulting, but I think it's disingenuous to claim that you simply "lack a belief" in God, and therefore can avoid justifying your position. Whatever positive argument for atheism you decide to use, you should still provide an argument for why atheism is true.
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  JMcFarlandposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  I'm sorry, but I disagree. Atheism is the default position. You have to be taught to believe in a god, and as an atheist I do not have to go out of my way to prove that each of the millions of gods are each untrue. I do not have the burden of proof. I am not saying that no gods exist. I'm saying that I have not been shown any evidence to date to justify a belief in one (or more). The theist is claiming that a god exists. They have the burden of proof. To say otherwise is simply shifting the goalposts.
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  Thomas Swanposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  So people who "lack a belief" and people who "believe gods don't exist" should both be called atheists then? I think people who believe gods don't exist are irrational, so why should I be lumped in with them just because I lack a belief?
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  Rad Manposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  If you think people who believe gods don't exist are irrational then no one will lump you in with Atheists. Your good to go?
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  Thomas Swanposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  No-one except the person I've replied to?
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  JMcFarlandposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  There is a distinction between strong atheism, which says "no gods exist" and regular atheism which is simply a lack of belief. Atheism by definition, going back to Latin and Greek does not mean "against or opposed to". It means "without". In fact, humorous side note, early Christians were called atheists by the Romans because they were "without belief" in the Roman pantheon.
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  Thomas Swanposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  Interesting, but there must be a third type of atheist, those who claim to know gods don't exist. That's more than just belief. On the opposite side, there are theists who believe in god but aren't sure if he really exists, and there are theists who say they know god exists. So would the believing and knowing atheists both be strong atheists? Would those who just believe be strong agnostic atheists? It gets complicated!
  
  Some definitions of atheism say it's an absence of belief, some say it's a belief that gods don't exist. Some give both definitions and call the former one a "broad" definition. No-one seems to know.
  
  I have no belief in god, and no belief that he doesn't exist either. I am agnostic with a lack of belief. If you like, it is the absolute middle ground. So why should atheism claim the middle ground? Calling me an atheist is no different than calling me a theist. Both beliefs alone are completely irrational to me, and equally so. I accept that theists usually add far more irrational beliefs, making them bigger nutters.
  
  The word agnostic has in recent times come to mean more than a lack of knowledge, it's come to mean a lack of belief also. I hope this post has established the reason for this. I understand it's original meaning, and the derivation from Greek, so I would happily change the word if I could get that change popularized in the same way. As a scientist, in my experience you don't believe something you don't know, which is why agnosticism should define my position. I suppose it could be called scientific agnosticism instead to qualify the lack of belief.
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  Mark Knowlesposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  You just called yourself an atheist. A-Theism = lack of belief in a god.
  
  But - I agree with you to a certain extent. There shoudl not even be a word for it. Are you an A-Golfer because you don't play golf?
  
  You are an agnostic atheist according to the proper definition of the words, or - more properly - if you want to label yourself - "ignostic," is probably appropriate.
  
  Kind of interesting though. We have 3 different types of atheist and 44,000 different Christian cults.
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  Thomas Swanposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  My next door neighbor's cat has a lack of belief in God; my socks have a lack of belief in God, are they atheists? I think you're right Mark, it's absurd to define things in that way. I guess I'm an Agolfer, an Acriminal, and an Arapist too.
  
  I may be an agnostic atheist according to the definition, but so are those who believe gods don't exist (if they don't claim knowledge). One has to conclude that atheism is a blanket term with very little meaning. I might as well say I'm an Acommunist if I'm not a communist. Every child born, every animal, and every non-sentient object will be an atheist too.
  
  I can't call myself an ignostic because I think there are plenty of definitions of God that one can propose, and if that definition is unfalsifiable, I don't think it's meaningless. If it has meaning for many people, it becomes meaningful to me whether I want it to or not. I think ignosticism was invented by people too fed up to argue.
  
  I suppose the reason for the 44,000 Christian cults is the huge number of beliefs they associate with their belief in god. You could even do the maths. If one belief has three variations, then 2 would have 9, and to have 44,000 variations you'd need 35 stupid irrational Christian beliefs, or 44,000^(1/3).
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  Sooner28posted 11 years agoin reply to this
  You don't go out of your way to prove the others don't exist because there is a prima facie case that they don't.
  
  I think the same applies to the christian conception of God. However, I don't think it necessarily applies to a theistic God or a deistic one.
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VeritaLiberatore7posted 11 years ago
Look the color of a word or sentence means less than nothing of there is not content that can be learned. Its your writing, yourm ideas, your letters. Do what makes you feel good. I truly can't see why it would upset people except for the fact your doifferent. But its the different people that make a saying and have something to say. If you want to write in blue please do so. God Bless you Brother!
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Norah Caseyposted 11 years ago
Due to the number of accurate personal attack reports in this thread, it is now closed. If you wish to continue your conversation on this topic, do so in a new thread. Try to be more civil to one another.
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