I submit this link without comment. btw, I was unable to hear the sound, but the visuals...
Warning! Extremely graphic.
This is a pretty one sided view of Islam, Para. Not very nice to watch I agree, however, I became immediately suspicious when he stated why he doesn't want to let those F$$$ into his country. The man is hardly impartial is he is?
Living in a city that has a number of ethnicities, I can honestly say that I have never seen muslim neighbors or friends perform this ritual. I'm not suggesting it doesn't happen, but I don't believe it to be the "norm" in any sense.
I think this video just demonstrates how radical religionists can behave, whatever their religion. We only have to wander around the religion and philosophy threads here, to realize that all religions are capable of producing nutters.
Actually, I would be very much interested in knowing:
A. How many millions do follow this practice?
B. Why the Muslim leaders haven't at least put a stop to the child mutilation part of it?
I don't know how many millions follow this, Para. Do either of us? The Muslim leaders should put a stop to this, actually, the police should. Child abuse is child abuse. All religions have engaged in child abuse (I'm thinking Catholic, here) It just appears that, some offences brought about by religion get brought to the fore, whilst others occur very much behind closed doors. Is this really about one religion, or the way all religions have abused their power?
Yours is an excellent point. Islam is still now what Christianity and Judaism were around 600 years ago. There was a famous U.N speech about this several years ago. The short version is that the Christianity and Judaism leaders got together 600 years ago and cleaned up their respective religions by throwing out all the violence doctrines and practices. The U.N. speech said that Islam needs to do the same thing; better late than never.
They can clean it up all they want.
Sharia law 600 years from now will not resemble the 10 commandments, which has been the basis for just about every legal system of the greater part of the world, and has been for centuries. I know which one I'd live under, any day!
Of course Islam will not resemble the 10 commandments.
So, why do the Muslims keep trying to tell us that the Koran is meant to "correct" the Bible.
Clarify it, as one put it.
Is god so demented that he can't get it right the first time? (IE, the need for the "last" prophet (Mohammed))
No...the idea is that mankind is destructive and perverted what was communicated.
I am not a Muslim, Christian, Jew, or even religious in any sense, but I still know this much..
I suggest you do some research into the accuracy of Biblical Document history.
You will find that the content is so close to original that no-one can claim it was (drastically) altered from then till now.
The only ones to claim this are those who haven't a clue. Listening to loud voices, who also don't have a clue, just an ANTI bias.
Heaven forbid that these ones be wrong.
Well, I'm thinking 2010, not 600 years ago. Does the rape of children count? Is this not child abuse? Hundreds of cases documented world wide against the Catholic church. Publicly throwing out doctrines is one thing, but respecting the rights of children who are otherwise powerless is quite another. Just because certain practices are no longer "doctrines" does not make them right or disappear all together. Abuse is abuse, whichever religion engages in it.
Though I do not believe sharia law is of God nor is killing people and saying God told you to.
Here's a link to a site that ministers to Muslims in a way that can be understood better. This site has a ton of info and is in Arabic & English.
I also have pages geared towards ministering to Muslims- and some include videos of those who used to follow Islam. So we can have the witness of those that came out of it's bondage & abuse- if interested.
God bless you!
I don't doubt this. My comment was directed at any religious group that condones violence or abuse/self abuse. Sometimes this is done overtly (the OP's video) Other times it is much more covert and remains hidden or covered up by the institution (testimony/witness statements of those that came out of Catholicisms bondage and abuse)
The clip posted is of a very small sect of Islam called Sufism. They believe that by mutilating the body, they are able to transcend their lives as humans and rid themselves of the flesh to become more like God. Let's not get confused here...
I'm not. I was responding to heavenbound and something stated earlier by paradigmsearch regarding child mutilation (you''ll see my post somewhere above also where I state that I think it's a one sided view of Islam). My stance was as it is now, that child abuse, irrespective of who performs it, or which religion they come from, should be prosecuted.
I've heard of another ceremony where people (mainly men), sometimes as young as 14 take a sharp piece of bare metal, then scrape it across their chin, cheeks and throat. This often causes their skin to bleed or become inflamed and sore. It's called shaving, and it's an accepted social practice. In fact not shaving is considered socially unacceptable in some parts, particularly in business environments. When looked at objectively this is just a skin-damaging, painful practice that is done mainly on the grounds that it looks "neat and tidy".
So customs, practices and traditions of any society can seem strange, barbaric and nonsensical. Let's not pretend "our" society doesn't have it's fair share of pointless, barbaric practices that are remnants of a bygone age.
Don is obviously right. Islamic behavior is perfectly sane, rational, and normal. I was wrong to have thought otherwise. Thank you, Don, for correcting my misconceptions.
I think I shall move on from this thread...
That's a bit of a misrepresentation of what I said. The point is there are practices of self-mutilation and abuse in "our" society also. Yet you choose to only comment on those of "other" societies. Why have you not posted a graphic picture of a woman with her breasts slit open as silicon is inserted into them? Do you not consider that self-mutilation?
The title of this thread is "Islam". Yet there are Muslims here who have said they also find this practice (a shiite practice) disturbing. So that title is misleading. It doesn't represent Islam any more than a woman getting a boob job represents Western culture, or peodophilia represents Christianity. Suggesting otherwise is misleading and disengenuous.
Moreover, either you are against self-mutilation and child abuse or you aren't. If you are, then you will be equally appalled by all such practices, including self-mutilation resulting from self esteem issues that we see in our own culture. If you're not then that raises questions about the motivation for this thread.
How can it be "self-mutilation" if a doctor is performing a surgical procedure? These women are not out parading around with their breasts slit open.
Not a very good comparison. Come up with something more relevant and maybe you'll get your point across.
You're right, self-induced mutilation is probably more accurate in the case of cosmetic surgery. But the fact it's done in private by a surgeon doesn't make it seem any less idiotic to some people when there is no medical reason for it.
As for further examples of self-mutilation in modern Western society:
Of course I'm only guessing that these fine gentleman are not Muslims, but I suspect they are not. And I know non-Muslims who have similar facial piercings, though not quite as extreme. Is this not self-mutilation?
Regardless of whether the OP considers such behaviour "sane, rational, and normal", the fact is that practices of self-mutilation are not confined or unique to Islam, and are not representative of Islam. Just as the above is not representative of Western society, and child abuse is not representative of Christianity. Suggesting otherwise is at best inaccurate, and at worst disingenuous in my opinion. Another episode of "us" vs "them".
how can you compare the two?
That gentleman is just trying to be more efficient during meal time. Why occupy your hands with utensils when they could be used to hold beverages or a slice of bread?
You think so. Have you ever tried slicing butternut squash when the knives are that angle?
lol. Yes but picking his nose could literally make a bloody mess.
If I were a Muslim leader, I would be making sure that events like this one NEVER happened. Events like this one show Islam to be a bunch of sadistic/masochistic crazy people. Then they want to talk about how Islam is a good thing, and everyone should want to be a part of it. Violence isn't an intrinsic part of religion, it is its opposite, or at least it should be.
So, No Thank You.
Jewish and Christian practices of circumcision, self flogging, crucifixion and any number of other 'penance' practices are no better however, and they show Jewish and Christian people to be a bunch of sadistic/masochistic crazy people as well. (My son and I have both gone through circumcision).
Violence is sometimes necessary in the enforcement of Legal concepts, religious Moral concepts should, in my opinion, be violence free, always.
It is the Islamic belief. Are you saying that Islam is disgusting and degrading?
I'm saying that to mutilate and denigrade someone in public like that is disgusting and degrading. No true God would ever ask or demand such from His followers. God is a God of Love not torture.
Different cultures and religions have different ceremonies and rites/rituals that they undertake.
Just because one isn't a member of said group doesn't mean that they can't find understanding..
I don't see anything troubling here... What you see on this video is not Islam-wide...for anyone who knows anything about Islam, it is as diverse and fragmented as Christianity.
What you see here is specifically something practiced by Shiites...mourning the loss of Husayn, who was tortured and killed along with his family by Sunni opposition...
1) this event is a remembrance of the conflict between Shiites and Sunnis....it is not pan-Islamic by any stretch.
2) it is an event commemorating a brutal, bloody loss of self-determination and leadership for those who believed that the only true leader of Islam had to be directly descended from Muhammad himself..
Put in this context, it is not as the video producer wishes to portray...rather, he shows his own ignorance and intolerance...
This also (based on the comments in this hub-thread) shows that many hubbers do not do research or seek understanding when they see something and respond....that is quite reckless and hints at a false sense of ethno-centric "holier than thou" mentality...
The video was bizarre, but I'd still like to understand what was going on. Christians have been known to nail themselves on crosses and flog themselves with whips in the name of their religion. I've seen other religions doing some odd and violent things over the years.
This video is, in many ways, more of a strike against fanatical religion than Islam, until it is more thoroughly explained.
Self-mutilation is a psychiatric illness. Do it and you will be committed. But, wait! My religion told me to do it! Oh, well then, that's OK. Never mind.
Unfortunately, you would be wrong.
You can begin the failings of the Bible as an "accurate" historical text with Adam, Eve, Noah, the Red Sea crossing and teh Israelite conquest of Canaan.
There are historical aspects to the book.....there are glimpses of history that are kind've recorded, but the Bible is by no means an accurate historical text by any stretch of the imagination...
That's just the historical side..
Christians believe that their "revelations" came because the Jews "messed up"...many Christians don't see any relevance to the Old Testament...they believe the old covenant document to be "flawed"...which is why there is a "New" testament...
This concept is the same for Muslims, who view both the Jewish and Christian books as flawed...not because their deities are different, but because they see humans as corruptable, and those things used to justify power (like religious texts as manipulated to prop up worldly glory..
That is their view.... I am not a Muslim... I think all these "holy" books are severely flawed. I don't believe at all in original sin, in the conflict between a creator and a turncoat underling, or any of these tall tales..
And just to confuse the hell out of everybody, here are two excellent hubs:
http://donw.hubpages.com/hub/An-approac … ic-Society
http://donw.hubpages.com/hub/Theism-Jus … ationalism
Well that video was... interesting. Although I do hope people realize not all Muslims practice such things. Just like there are different Christian denominations, there are different denominations is Islam.
My step-father, an African man from Ghana who now lives in the US, is a soft spoken, incredibly amazing man who is very serious about his beliefs and religion. I showed him this video, and he said that he's never heard or seen anything like it -- that it must have been something that specific denominations do, but not his (Sunnah).
I find this really disturbing to watch (I'm a Sunni Muslim)..This is a ceremony done by the Shiite (Shia) Muslims..I think they believe they have to hurt themselves like this as a remembrance or sacrifice ,I'm not sure (basically thy are mourning the death of Hussain), beating the chest is another practice they do. It is not a picture that represents Islam at all. With all respect to Shia..as mike said "it is not pan-Islamic".
If you are implying that this behavior represents Islam then you are wrong. It only represents this particular doctrine (actually the Shiite doctrine has many groups inside it, some even believe that Mohamed (peace be upon him) shouldn't have been the prophet, others have very diff views of Islam that qualified them to be considered as non-Muslims by many scholars!, some groups of Shiaa even think of Ali as Lord! [he was a follower of prophet Mohamed PBUH])
Should the Shiite leaders put an end to this practice? If it is for me I would definitely do..But what if they believe it is their religion? What you may say as mutilation others see as a ritual.
Muslims and Jews cirumcise their male babies, many Christians think it is mutilation, should we end it?
Of course, they believe it is their religion: Islam. It is their interpretation and their representation. Who are you to say otherwise?
The fact that you are Sunni and they Shiite, and that there are many factions and sects suggests Islam is a man made religion, like any other. In this case, it's Arab culture, Arab religion.
And, Paradigm..What I recall is that you live in Qatar or UAE, have you seen anyone doing this? Show this video to your Muslim co-workers and tell us about their reaction.
"Of course, they believe it is their religion: Islam. It is their interpretation and their representation. Who are you to say otherwise?
The fact that you are Sunni and they Shiite, and that there are many factions and sects suggests Islam is a man made religion, like any other. In this case, it's Arab culture, Arab religion."
Ok, first, I won't argue about religions being man made or that Islam is just for Arabs. It is beyond this topic.
Yes, I agree (it is what I said): It's THEIR interpretation of Islam and the Quran that is against the majority's interpretation. Should I now start a thread about Jehova's witnesses (or Orthothox, Catholicism, etc) and give it the title: Christianity?
If you are talking about a ritual that is ONLY performed by a group (actually not all Shiites perform it) and it is OPPOSITE to the beliefs of the other groups in this religion, why would you name your thread with a generalizing name? I actually expected a better understanding of Islam from paradigm since he lived in a Muslim and Arab country.
Here's a small about Islam: Self mutilation (and harm) is a sin..and it goes beyond self torture, etc...It also includes unnecessary plastic surgery, tattoos, etc (unless it is a burn or a congenital anomaly or causing troubles you shouldn't change the way God created you)..and it also includes self harming by smoking, as a general rule in Islam: anything you do that harms your body is a sin because God created this body and it is your responsibility to keep it safe, the same obviously applies to other human bodies no matter what they believe in.
This is what we believe in. If you want to learn something about Arabs or Muslims, use a reliable source.
Whoa there! It doesn't matter if it's the majority or not, you nor any other Muslim from any other sect can state whether they are right or if others are wrong. It simply is their interpretation, just like you have your interpretation.
Feel free to do so, but what does that have to do with Islamic interpretations?
So what? Who are you to say you are right and they are wrong? They could say the same thing about you, that your beliefs are OPPOSITE to the beliefs of others in this religion.
You have an interesting interpretation of your religion. Notice that it is an interpretation and could be right or could be wrong.
No, that is what YOU believe.
LOL! The only source required to learn about Arabs or Muslims is reality itself, their words and their actions.
I also hope a Shiite Muslim is reading this to give us (me included) more info about this ritual, and how much do Shiites perform it.
hey thank you for posting that
just for e claification thise ceremony is not e part of islam or sharia or anny think
but it s e tradictional paractice of shia groupes and e all there teachers and scholars call them to stop thise practices
as you can see thy were punishing and torturing them selves
the story is very long
but shortly it s practice of redmetion for not helping al housine the child of mohamed and his gand son
al housine try to return the way of rulling just as mohamed left it shura wish is e the most founctional democracy at that time but shia groupe fell him not all of them
and now it e practice of redemtion dont mean anny think because who fell him dies e long long time e go and no one of them have that responsability
if you won to know more research the story of al housine it s the mmoste biautiful story aboute arabic bravery
again all shia teachers order them to stop thise practice
and noo uropian should woory shia are 20/100 of all muslims nd all of there teachers tell the to stop but you know it s just traditions
I know some Shiites living here in the U.S., and they don't participate in these types of events.
Each Muslim, Sunni or Shia (as in any other religous group) practices differently/interprets differently.
the Muslim friends i know dont give a shite about this kinda thing
I think my example was very clear, I can't say that Jehova's witnesses represent Christianity, they just represent themselves, and so does Catholicism, etc.
I didn't mention that I'm right or wrong, I'm not even talking about this. I simply said: It is their interpretation, If you want to talk about it call it by its name and don't claim this is Islam and give people a false impression that all Muslims do this. In the reality you are talking about ONLY SOME Shiites do it, not all Muslims. But here, Paradigm choose this particular action to imply it represents "Islam" which is the title of his thread, this is what I'm discussing. I'm not discussing if they are right or wrong. I just stated the facts, aka "reality".
We all know Islam is split up into factions, just like other religions. One faction hates another and sometimes gets involved in violent clashes over their differences, while others sit on the sidelines watching. They all claim to be Muslims. You can agree with them or not, but you can't sit there and say they aren't Muslims.
Yes, some Muslims do this while others do that. Notice that your religion is fragmented and divided.
Sorry but reality and Islam don't go together very well.
The actions of Muslims on the other hand do go together with reality. And, that's the only thing that's relevant and important.
Sorry but reality and Islam don't go together very well
I think the same could be said about any religion.
I didn't argue about wrong or right, divided or not, etc, cool?
You are again saying things I didn't say, you just quoted me saying "it is heir interpretation and not all Muslims do it".
i.e.: I didn't say they are not Muslims.
I think my comment is SO CLEAR: Don't generalize the actions of some.
How clear was that?
Well, based on all the posts I've seen here; I have concluded that I am indeed in error. The self-mutilation thing is indeed done by only a small minority of Muslims. To paraphrase what another poster said, to condemn Islam because of the small minority of self-mutilators, would be like condemning all of Christianity because of the Jehovah Witnesses and that Baptist group that harasses mourners at military funerals.
However, we do still need to sort this out:
Qur'an:9:5 "Fight and kill the disbelievers wherever you find them, take them captive, harass them, lie in wait and ambush them using every stratagem of war."
Qur'an:8:39 "Fight them until all opposition ends and all submit to Allah."
Qur'an:9:123 "Fight the unbelievers around you, and let them find harshness in you."
What say you?
Those types of ideas are in the Bible and Torah, too...
There would not be a Quran without these former two....and violence as a whole is part of human culture/way of life. Also, early Muslims themselves faced violence against their persons. Violence begets violence...
I'm glad we cleared that up. Since others do violence, it is ok for me to do violence as well. I am very relieved to know this. In fact, I now can do anything I want to anybody, since I can now justify it by saying that since others do it, I can too! Thanks Again. And I will be sure to explain this all to my victims; I know they will understand and agree.
That's obviously what I said Para... (rolling eyes).
Why don't you behave so critically in the scope of Christianity/Judaism?
I suppose its okay for those texts to espouse violence, right?
Thank you, paradigmsearch, I appreciate your objective approach. I have to say, I rarely come to the religion forums because I find no benefit in fighting over this or discussing just for the sake proving myself/yourself right (we already know no one changes their preformed opinions).
About the questions, I'm not a very religious person, I'm not even qualified to answer questions..any scholar (Sheikh, i.e. someone who studied Islam), Islamic book or website about the explanation of Quran will be better than my mediocre English but I'll try. First, it is not just about translation, because translation alone can't convey the same meaning in Arabic (ESPECIALLY if you are choosing verses or parts of verses) that's why we have Explanations of the Quran in Arabic (the original classic Arabic the Quran was written in is sometimes difficult to us, we speak a more modern version of Arabic) and in English.
This one is easy, many verses in the Quran are easy to understand if you know the context of the chapter, the previous and following verses, the timing of revelation, the explanation, etc.. All the verses you mentioned are in the context of war and only war. Islam faced many troubles and trials to end it at the start, had many enemies (Arabs worshiping idols, Persians and Romans) and so had to fight back and go through wars (just like other religions!).
Let's see, an example:
"Qur'an:9:5 "Fight and kill the disbelievers wherever you find them, take them captive, harass them, lie in wait and ambush them using every stratagem of war."
The context of chapter 9 is talking about war in many verses. This one was talking about a war Muslims had with Arabs worshiping idols (their economic powers depended on this because people came from everywhere to Mecca to worship these statues/idols and they feared that Islam would become a new power), then they had a truce with Muslims for the 4 holy months..After that, the war should continue, the verse in its context is like this:
(I used a different translation, the part of the verse you mean is in bold)
Quran: chapter 9, verses 4-6:
[Excepting those of the idolaters with whom ye (Muslims) have a treaty, and who have since abated nothing of your right nor have supported anyone against you. (As for these), fulfill their treaty to them till their term. Lo! Allah loveth those who keep their duty (unto Him). (4)
Then, when the sacred months have passed, kill the idolaters wherever ye find them, and take them (captive), and besiege them, and prepare for them each ambush. But if they repent and establish worship and pay the poor due, then leave their way free. Lo! Allah is Forgiving, Merciful. (5)
And if anyone of the idolaters seeketh thy protection (O Muhammad) , then protect him so that he may hear the word of Allah; and afterward convey him to his place of safety. That is because they are a folk who know not. (6) ]
The other example:
Qur'an:8:39 "Fight them until all opposition ends and all submit to Allah."
here is the context, and (opposition) isn't a good translation to "Fitna in Arabic" which more literally means: persecution:
Quran: chapter 8, verses 38-39:
Tell those who disbelieve that if they cease (from persecution of believers) that which is past will be forgiven them; but if they return (thereto) then the example of the men of old hath already gone (before them, for a warning). (38) And fight them until persecution is no more, and religion is all for Allah. But if they cease, then lo! Allah is Seer of what they do. (39).
And when the context is different (NOT WAR), here is what the Quran says:
"Allah forbids you not, with regard to those who fight you not for your faith, nor drive you out of your homes, from dealing kindly and justly with them: For Allah loves those who are just" (Qur'an 60:8)
I'm not trying to discuss meanings, wars, or anything, just wanted to clarify the context of the verses you asked about, you will find many other verses too bout war in the Quran but try to know the context or at least, read the verses surrounding this verse.
Now I guess you have an idea about what extremists or terrorists do, they take verses like these, rip them off out of their context and timing and circumstances and apply them to whatever they want. It is a big mistake, in fact there are so many mistakes to mention but at least we know that the first mistake is just ripping verses out of their context (war!) and the second is generalizing over all "disbelievers" because even in war times, the Quran and Islamic teachings are: you only fight those who fight you (not women, not children, not the old, not the ill, the clerks/priests, those taking cover in temples or churches, etc) and also not to cut trees or kill animals except for eating.
And Abu-Bakr's (a follower of prophet Muhamed and the first Islamic Caliph) instructions for the Islamic army were: “Do not betray or be treacherous or vindictive. Do not mutilate. Do not kill the children, the aged or the women. Do not cut or bum palm trees or fruitful trees. Don’t slay a sheep, a cow or camel except for your food. And you will come across people who confined themselves to worship in hermitages, leave them alone to what they devoted themselves for.”
But no, a terrorist will just throw all this away out of the window and just tell himself that Quran says Fight and kill the disbelievers wherever you find them...
Not only terrorists do this, but also peope who just want to attack another religion will simply choose parts of verses of a holy book and read it to millions in the media telling them that this is what Muslims in the world believe in.
If you wanna read the Quran, here: http://www.myquran.us/browse/readquran.aspx
Sorry for the long reply, i think it is my last in this thread. Thank you.
I hope you do return to this and other religion threads. I found your post not only to be intelligent, but not riddled with logic flaws as many of the others unfortunately are. The religion threads definitely need more posts such as yours.
I cannot dispute nor disagree with your statements concerning the importance of context. In fact, I didn't find anything wrong with your statements at all. Unfortunately, this means that I have to agree with them. Darn it, I just might have to find a new hobby here...
Fight back? Nonsense, it was those who followed Islam that created the threat in the first place, hence created it's own enemies as it sought to supplant "worshiping idols", just like other religions.
LOL! Yes, Muslims believed they were being persecuted as the swept across the world trying to establish their faith through violence.
Sure, accept Islam or else. History showed us the rest. They're called the "Muslim Conquests" and they lasted for centuries.
Sure, and what more did Muslims need than the justification they were being just when they tore across the world.
LOL! That's funny. You believe there is "context" in the justification of violence in a holy book.
That's what your holy book teaches them to do, just as it teaches all Muslims to do.
Exactly, and it is the "those who fight you" phrase that is always interpreted to mean a great many things and is one of the main reasons Islam is a militant religion, not one of peace.
And, you're saying that those verses are NOT something Muslims in the world believe?
"just as it teaches all Muslims to do"
So basically you think Ben Laden's interpretation is the right one? Well, if what you are claiming is true... I guess other religions would have extinct by now and in every country the Muslims "conquered". What about the christian Arabs who are still on their original religion since hundreds of years?
What about the Muslims living among western countries full of people of all beliefs?
Are you suggesting that they are not real Muslims or didn't understand Islam and that YOUR understanding and YOUR interpretation of the Quran is the right one? How many chapters did you read from the Quran? Did you read the history of the beginning of Islam? Do you know what did Prophet Mohamed did to those "idolators" when he entered Mecca?
"And, you're saying that those verses are NOT something Muslims in the world believe?"
No, I believe in them, I just put them in their context. I believe that in war, I should fight my enemy with all the power I got..but I don't believe that I should "kill all disbelievers" just like that. You are AGAIN saying things I didn't say. As I said, I'm not going to comment more on this.
The fact that Bin Laden believed it to be the right one is all that really matters.
Remnants of Christian Arabs survive today only because they managed to escape the Islamic armies and together with other tribes supported the Christian Byzantium as a buffer against the "Islamization" of the known world.
Yes, things are quite different today, aren't they?
I don't try to interpret holy books in order to secure a correct one, I just read the words that are there.
You mean how Muhammad claimed to have talked with Gabriel, alone, and claimed the word of Allah was revealed to him? Yes, Muhammad was quite the con man, just not very clever. But then, he wasn't working with intellectuals, either.
Exactly my point. Let's remember that this what your holy book teaches you. A holy book. Not a military manual. A holy book.
Not today, but if this was centuries ago, you probably would.
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