Questioning the concept of Free Will
I thought it was a free forum and everybody can have a say. Did I miss something? I am very sorry if I did
Wow - One early night and look at what happens
Ben and Sandra - thank you for defending me, but I think vd is showing his true colors with these attacks and it was pretty clear what I said or did not say. He thinks I am a liar and a coward, and if he says it enough times, I am sure there will be others that agree with that stance simply because I am an atheist and he is a "christian." I am really not bothered. It saddens me that that is the way it is, but continuing arguing in that way reminds me of the sort of arguments I would have as a child.
I just did not have the energy for absorbing that much negativity last night.
Meastro and samuel - I genuinely hope you get your differences worked out, but this is yet another nail in the coffin of your religion as far as I am concerned. When a father will disown his son and call him a liar and a coward in public because of differing interpretations of the bible, you must surely question that. What next ? You both collect a bunch of disciples and have a war? Sound familiar? Sheesh......
Make Money
I don't see how this is my fault ( or any other atheist that may be here). You christians seem to be doing just fine on your own. I did not ask Maestrowhit to tell me I was going to heaven. I don't believe in heaven or hell, so I am not worried either way. But I have 2 opposing sides here. One saying one thing, the other saying the opposite. So, I must make up my own mind, based on my own observations. And when I see a professed christian say things like this:
It just persuades me that I made the right choices. It is no good blaming atheism for a rift between 2 opposing christian viewpoints. And you wonder why I am not interested in being educated by you?
And getting back to what Milla Mahno said after you attacked her:
Is this the way you spread the word? Attacking anyone who questions it?
On the question of free will, it seems to me that Maestro and Milla have a valid point.
How can you have free will if you know that whichever way you decide, you are either going to burn in hell or live in bliss?
Although, if heaven is full of the type of christians that attack me at every opportunity, that sounds like hell to me and I know which one I am choosing
What?
Me use my pull to close threads?
You credit me with more power than I have, so thanks, I guess
I very much doubt they would close a thread on my say-so. Or keep it open.
Cowardice? What on earth are you talking about?
Time for your Valium perhaps?
Sorry. Quite right. Hard to resist
In fact, apologies to everyone for continuing to antagonize vp.
vp - I am done with this "discussion." Whether they close it or not is not up to me, but I see no point in continuing any further.I am going to have to agree with you Paraglider. Also, I am partly responsible for the degeneration of this thread. VP thank you for standing with me but I have been totally wrong in the way that I have approached this forum. The only thing that I set out to do is proclaim the truth about the gospel, or the true gospel. Don't get me wrong I am in no way scolding you, for I think you are a man of integrity and I think the same about Ben. But you and Ben and Mark need to drop it. This forum is about "free will" and anything deviating from that topic is unproductive. You know, They beat Jesus to a pulp beyond recognition. They spit in His face, they cursed Him and mocked Him to a degree that no human being could ever take without resistance. But Jesus said nothing until after they had hung Him on that cross and then He said to one of the thieves on their cross "you will be with me in paradise" then He cried out to God "why have you forsaken me?" and at some point He said "forgive them for they no not what they do" His final words were "it is finished"
My point is that I think that we as Christians need to get the focus back on "THE CROSS"
Nothing good will come out of this forum if we fail to do so. It's not about us, it's all about Jesus and Him crucified.
Jesus Christ is the perfect example of "free will" He was not hipnotized by God His Father to carry out His will. No, He even asked His Father if there be any other way that He would gladly take it. Instead He CHOSE to do His Fathers will. He could have called ten thousand angels and more to rescue Him, but He didn't do that either did He? He was all man and all God up on that cross. He, God in the flesh allowed Himself to be tortured in all forms of torture because He loves us. All He wants us to do is follow His example. Love all man-kind no matter who they are. God hates sin but He loves the sinner.
VP, Ben, Mark, Mike, thank you for your support on this thread. Now I have to swallow my pride and publically apologize to my son. That will be my next post.MAESTROWHIT…………I know you’re out there some where. This is your dad. I am making this post exclusively for the purpose of making a public apology to you. I was wrong in the way that I approached you in your own forum. I was wrong for slandering your name as maestrowhit. I was wrong for calling you a liar and I was wrong for calling you a coward[ I, SECONDSAMUEL DO HEREBY APOLOGIZE TO YOU] on this day Sunday, 11-02-2008.
Please don’t misunderstand me, I am not agreeing with your views on the concept of “free-will”, but I have no right to shuv my views down your throat. For that I am sorry. I would like it very much if you would come back to your forum and continue what you started. I will still dispute your theory but I will do it like a gentleman. If you don’t want to come back, I understand, and I will not judge you for not coming back. However, I will continue to post my biblical view on “free will” until it is no longer possible. I hope you don’t mind.
I love you my son, God bless you…….SS.......You publicly acknowledged my apology so I in turn will publicly acknowledge your terms and agree to them.
I did not put your email address in my spam folder, I said I would, to inflict pain but I never did. As far as the phone calls go; your number is in my caller ID and I have not got a call with that ID. So I don't know what's going on there. Just to show that I am sincere I will give you a call in the morning per the number that I have in my phone.
And for all you hubbers out there, let this be the example of true Christianity. For all you Christian hubbers out there, let this be a model of Christian behavior to follow. We are all guilty of adding that extra twist to our post that causes the recipient to be insulted. Jesus said if someone smite you on your right cheek, then turn and give them the left cheek also and I think He was talking about insults. If you can't get your point across without inflicting an insult then you will gain only a little fruit to show for your efforts. Think before you post.
Well that about wraps it up, and just think I did all of the above of my own free will.................................................no harm intended... I love you.........dadI think this is an excelent example of God's love. God works in mysterious ways.Father and son just made my day thank you both.
I takes a real man to do what you just did SecondSamuel! I am sure your son will appreciate your move.
I am a blubbery mess. *tears*. I always did love a good ending or beginning.
Guys, I can't stop the tears, tears of joy! This is unbelievably touching! Even if those religion forums don't ever bring any other fruit, they were worth having just for that single moment, you know
That was truly touching - and for me, the essence of Christianity
Very nice.
Countless in front are your entity,
Each having an individual idenity.
You are made of such fine ,light love tissue.
No beginning ,no end an ageless isuue.
First of all to recognize someone would be a natural re-action (reflex) to a pre-existing familiarity. I know you because I am familiar (accustomed) to you (and your ways). I am your father and some would say that it would only be natural for me to know you. I know you only because I (chose) of my own free will, to stay with you at birth and then into the future, forming a connection with you thus becoming familiar with you. To recognize or not to recognize is a natural function of the brain having nothing to do with any kind of will. (think you call it involuntary). Just like a computer has the ability to recognize in many different applications, but a computer does not have any kind of will. At least not yet………..
[But to as many as did receive and welcome Him,] they received Him and welcomed Him because John the Baptist went around telling all who would listen that the Messiah was coming, so when Jesus arrived He was welcomed because they had heard of His coming.
[13 Who owe their birth neither to bloods nor to the will of the flesh [that of physical impulse]nor to the will of man [that of a natural father], but to God. [They are born of God!] ]
I believe here it is saying that the new birth didn’t come by natural means (mom or dad) it didn’t come from some blood line (a particular race) it didn’t come from some impulse (passion or plan) (a planned birth). We that are born again are born from God through salvation which comes by us adhering to it. Which is something that we are allowed to choose. It’s interesting that the word [will] is used twice in this particular verse which to me implies that “man” and “the flesh” has a will. If that is not so, then why is it mentioned. Please note that it does not say the [will] of God, instead it says [of God] there is a difference.
You know that I have a stricken brain and some times it’s hard for me to gather my thoughts so please allow me to use a reliable commentary to further explain my point of view.
His Divine and human nature. Matthew Henry
John the Baptist came to bear witness concerning Jesus. Nothing more fully shows the darkness of men's minds, than that when the Light had appeared, there needed a witness to call attention to it. Christ was the true Light; that great Light which deserves to be called so. By his Spirit and grace he enlightens all that are enlightened to salvation; and those that are not enlightened by him, perish in darkness. Christ was in the world when he took our nature upon him, and dwelt among
us. The Son of the Highest was here in this lower world. He was in the world, but not of it. He came to save a lost world, because it was a world of his own making. Yet the world knew him not. When he comes as a Judge, the world shall know him. Many say that they are Christ's own, yet do not receive him, because they will not part with their sins, nor have him to reign over them. All the children of God are born again. This new birth is through the word of God as the means,
1Pe 1:23, and by the Spirit of God as the Author. By his Divine presence Christ always was in the world. But now that the fulness of time was come, he was, after another manner, God manifested in the flesh. But observe the beams of his Divine glory, which darted through this veil of flesh. Men discover their weaknesses to those most familiar with them, but it was not so with Christ; those most intimate with him saw most of his glory. Although he was in
the form of a servant, as to outward circumstances, yet, in respect of graces, his form was like the Son of God His Divine glory appeared in the holiness of his doctrine, and in his miracles. He was full of grace, fully acceptable to his Father, therefore qualified to plead for us; and full of truth, fully aware of the things he was to reveal. (Jn 1:15-18)
I didn't mean to ignore your post. Sorry, I was defending my honor
So, what I think you are saying is we have free will. We were given free will, but because we have chosen to actively destroy our planet and ourselves, god/jesus/gods/creator has chosen to ignore us?
I agree that we have total control over what we choose to do, and I agree that we are doing all we can to perpetuate a self-destructive, benefits-for-those-at-the-top system that needs to be changed.
Whether we decide to change it is up to us.No, I am serious. I am slowly connecting with a lot of people who think this way, and I am trying to work out a way of saying it that actually makes a difference.
My current thinking is that we need to make it possible for corporations to be able to make horrendous amounts of money from being environmentally friendly instead of the other way 'round. It might stop some of the spin on "Global warming is cyclical, it will correct itself."
Or have a revolution......No, I am not surprised to see you with passion. One thing I would not suggest you are is passionless
You make some good points here. Although I may disagree that saving oil so we can have stealth bombers is a good reason to preserve what there is, that doesn't really matter because I am not naive enough to think I could persuade you or anyone else that we do not need to "defend" ourselves from Iran and Russia.
Keeping the illusion of a threat from outside is certainly one of the accepted ways of motivating a nationalist population.
Whatever happens, when crunch time comes, the powers that be will take whatever oil there is left for government and military use anyway.
Unfortunately, I am slowly beginning to think that the only way we will be able to change our energy consumption is to find some way for people to make large amounts of money doing so. Whether this is by using prisoners to make solar panels, or making it "cool" to be environmentally friendly.
The major problem with your prison plan is that the winners would be the prisoners (in the fact that they would leave prison with a usable skill). The population at large (because we would be preserving our resources), the planet and the environment.
The losers would be - whoever makes money from running the prisons; the government, local and federal, because with less prisons, there would not be a need for so much government. The energy companies because we would be less dependent on them for our energy needs.
So, I am not surprised it was thrown out.
Running cars on electricity is a complete waste of time. The energy has to come from somewhere and it makes no odds if you burn oil or coal to provide that energy.
And as for people who trade in their new car for another one that is a hybrid. I spit in their general direction. Does no one understand the environmental and energy costs involved in making a car in the first place?
By the time the environmental debt is paid by running a "greener" car, that car has been on the scrap heap for years.
It is just another way of "the system" persuading you to buy a new friggin' car.
Cars in general do not make sense. Electric or otherwise. Solar powered public transport? Now that makes sense.
So, how do we persuade people to change?
Way to go 'BIG GUY"...........
Well put Lady Guinevere.
Ask him to give you a sign. I keep asking the cosmos for signs and it keeps giving me signs.
It will be like telepathy- yes this is tue.
One story.Met up with a friend at the end of the day and we decided to have quick beer before parting.We picked up two bottles from the wine shop and went to our usual place.Then this voice in my head said-leave this place.I told my friend and he said whats wrong we have come here a hundred times.I told him I dont know but we must leave this place immediately.He joked it off and two minutes later we were surrounded by four cops for drinking without having a permit.A new police station had opened up a few days back in that area and we were not aware of it. Now he listens to me when I have an intuition
Because this was my free will
(If I could answer 
)Because at some point in the past I exercised my free will to make a conscious decision to make an effort to look at the World positively
Cause I liked it that way
Yep, and still do
Us silly girls don't go that deep
I see what you mean, and I'm afraid I don't have an answer for you Maestro. I don't really know if there is a free will or not, and not that I care much. All I know I like it when the World shows its love to me. And I like to love it back. It seems to be natural
- sandra rinckposted 16 years ago
0I can't believe this thread is still going. If you accept any God as you God then you do not have any free will other than to do exactly what you accepted as your mission to do.
So maestro, you accepted J.C, so now you get the hole kaboodle. Good luck with that. Is it really worth it to you? Your dad is too old to change no one changes unless it comes with a winning lottery ticket. I agree with you t.keely, it appears that you have your head firmly attached.
that's right, we don't just get up one morning and decide that were gonna-go-git-saved. the bible says that no one comes unless they are drawn. God does the drawing through the holy spirit, bbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbut we still have to choose whether or not to allow ourselves to be drawn the end result being salvation.
do you agree TK?Maestro typing in bold to me is indicative of anger or shouting. You don’t have to shout here maestro, I can read regular type just fine.
You claim that the words in my post are not in the bible. OK, I am going to waste some more of my precious time and go and look up the passage and show it to you. I say “waste my time” because no matter what truths I show you. You are going to reject it, in my opinion your heart has been hardened, you have made up your mind that you are right and anyone who opposes you is wrong and the only one that can change that is God Himself. I am very close to the point of leaving this thread, and let God take care of it. In the end His truths will stand unchallenged. You claim that you have received a message directly from God and that is all well and good. But you know what? I too have received a message directly from God. The Bible. The inerrant word of God. It is available to all who choose to PONDER it’s truths.
Here is the passage
John 6:43-45 (New Living Translation)
43 But Jesus replied, “Stop complaining about what I said. 44 For no one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws them to me, and at the last day I will raise them up. 45 As it is written in the Scriptures, ‘They will all be taught by God.’ Everyone who listens to the Father and learns from him comes to me.
There are other passages that imply the same thing , but I am growing weary of this quagmire. You “boldly” proclaimed that I was wrong, so the burden of proof falls on you to make it so
We have no free will, we are already predestined to go to heaven or come to salvation, there is no need to change our evil thoughts towards God(repentance), there is no need to seek His truths which are found in His word then what be the necessity of drawing us in the first place. Nothing you have given to anyone on this thread has proven your arguement. You have stated your opinion but you have proved nothing.Nor have I. God's word proves its self. We are not called to prove, we are called to study it. You claim to be on some mission from God but all you are doing is causing devision, and confusion. I do not have to prove anything, I know I'm saved and I know why I am saved and I know beyond a shadow of any doubt that I was not saved by any formula that you have presented in "your" forum. I was saved by grace through my own faith (exercised of my own free will). I don't need to argue and (quite frankly I think it's wrong that we do) about the free gift of salvation.
You can offer to take the place of the most condemned murderer on death row but he is no better off unless he accepts the exchange and walks out of the prison.
i know it's hard to see the forest when your eyes are entranced on that huge tree in front of you. Step back and get a better view.
I love you my sonGod is beyond death and yes one must die in order to become one with him.
Here is the truth, I didn't accept the gift of my birth, I was not mentally capable of accepting anything at that age in my, I don't think anyone is. But as I grew into a man I became able to differentiate (is that a word?) anyway....or analize maybe my suroundings. Oh shucks, I'm trying to sound all educated. What I'm trying to say is that I grew up and figured out that I could make choices about every aspect of life. In fact I learned that it was necessary to make choices or else I would have been dormant. (or maybe a door mat). I heard about the gospel and then I heard the gospel, then I read the gospel and that gospel said that ..................here's the big one (IF) this is not an exact quote so please don't scold me in public. OK back to the big (IF) I would but believe (look that word up in the bible dictionary) or recieve Him Jesus (THEN) He Jesus would give me the right to become part of His family as His child. (I didn't copy and paste that passage but you know which one I'm talking about) Please don't make me go there. Plain and oh so simple TO AS MANY AS DID RECIEVE HIM HE GAVE THEM THE RIGHT TO BECOME THE SONS OF GOD. I think I quoted that right. I don't think it says he gave us all the right. There is a condition attached to aquiring the right. I give no glory to myself and never have. I simply accepted the present He gave me, opened it up, and now I am using it to clean up my sins on a daily basis. Am I glorified because I accept His gift? Am I glorified because I use His gift?
