Sit, kneel, stand, bow

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   mischeviousmeposted 13 years ago

   It seems that with all of the rituals, the true message of the teacher was lost. One does not need customs and rituals to find what they are looking for. The rituals that we practice are not important. What is important, is a question one has to answer for themselve's and it should not be at the behest of a pastor or guru.
   
   Did the great teachers not say "Live your own lives, but live it well"?

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      prettydarkhorseposted 13 years agoin reply to this

      it is part of culture, it is how you express yourself (i.e, the ritual is a form of respect, kiss on the forehead or bowing) which can be influenced by a group although individuals have their own rituals

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         Michele Travisposted 13 years agoin reply to this

         What about the 10 commandments?  That is not a lot.  There are no rituals there.  But I do understand what you are saying prettydarkhorse.

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            prettydarkhorseposted 13 years agoin reply to this

            hi Michele, the ten commandments are very basic and the most controversial is the first one. The service, mass or church gathering is a ritual but it is how people remember the teachings and supposedly internalize them though rising up, singing, listening to the word and sharing. It is really a form of socialization for many.

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               mischeviousmeposted 13 years agoin reply to this

               God, if that is what one is seeking, does not care for rituals. Rituals are man made and mean nothing. It is better to know something and move on. By staying in a religion, one is keeping themself from learning anything else. I am not sayng not to believe in God, I am saying however, that it is not important.
               
               Yes we must teach children morals and socialconstraint, but as soon as we introduce doctrine, we are trapping our children to belief and not knowledge. Though the occasional person will have an epiphany in religious circles, this is to say that religion is not bad. What I'm saying is that, it is not neccesary to impart intangible reallity and there is no ritual that will make it any easier for us.

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                  couturepopcafeposted 13 years agoin reply to this

                  What about the ritual of meditation, in whatever form this takes for someone?  Any seeker worth his salt will agree that some form of meditative ritual is a necessary part of the search.

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                     mischeviousmeposted 13 years agoin reply to this

                     Meditation is a stilling of the mind. "Be still and know that I am". This was a reference to Jesus. He was an aesthetic and did much meditating and when he found his answer, he shared it. The same can be said of Bodhidarma and Buddha, they sat and meditated until the answer was clear. One must still the mind if they are to find truth and it has nothing to do with ritual.

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                        couturepopcafeposted 13 years agoin reply to this

                        It has everything to do with ritual, IMO.  Rituals are something we do consistently, often and in the same way.  The aesthetics ritually meditated as do others.  Rituals may have little to do with robes and medals but they are not mutually exclusive.

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                           mischeviousmeposted 13 years agoin reply to this

                           When one meditates, they still the mind. The stilling of the mind is internal and should not be confused with external rituals. I am not trying to insult anyone, I am merely providing a personal observation. We meditate internally to better understand the nature of ourselves and that is where we learn who we are.
                           
                           If meditation is a ritual, then it has lost it's power. One should meditate in a way that is comfortable and leaves free the constraints of the mind. One should be mindful of stillness, yet pay no attention to the world at large. In paying no attention, we are able to understand the things that we must pay attention too.
                           
                           Some of what I say may be meaningless and I even have a hard time understanding it at times. So in the insanity of my gibberish, try to find the seeds of truth.

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                              couturepopcafeposted 13 years agoin reply to this

                              No, I would never confuse the two and am not insulted at all. I completely agree with you, just express it differently.  Words become meaningless but it's all we have in the forums.

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                                 mischeviousmeposted 13 years agoin reply to this

                                 True... Words can only go so far in written terms.

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                  prettydarkhorseposted 13 years agoin reply to this

                  yes rituals are man made but it is how people achieve some kind of satisfaction which gives them a feeling of joy.  I have many rituals during the day, they are personal. At times, I close my eyes when I am thinking something, be oblivious to the noise, then I smile ready to take the day. I do meditation as well. I can see religious rituals, as long as it is not harmful, are good, and if people are happy doing that then its ok. Who are we to say that they should not do that because we see it as bad.

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                     mischeviousmeposted 13 years agoin reply to this

                     I don't see rituals as bad, so much as unimportant. The one with an open mind see's many things, the one with open heart see's all. One does not need rituals to be open, they simply just have to be open. It does take learning to get to the opening of a path, but once the path is there, it is a solitary journey.

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                        couturepopcafeposted 13 years agoin reply to this

                        Yes, the path is at once solitary and full.  By being open we allow everything in and everything out.

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                           mischeviousmeposted 13 years agoin reply to this

                           Exactly!!

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                        prettydarkhorseposted 13 years agoin reply to this

                        rituals are just that it is part of how we live our lives and religious rituals plus everyday rituals, I grew up with those things. To an outsider we are bunch of weird people, but that's how we really live our lives. Some changed when I moved here although I still practice some of it, I kinda mix it with what I see. It is nice.

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                           mischeviousmeposted 13 years agoin reply to this

                           I am not looking down on rituals, I am merely saying that they are not important. They may help some to live richer fuller lives, but in the time between birth and death, they are unimportant.

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                              prettydarkhorseposted 13 years agoin reply to this

                              I respect your opinion, but for my own sake, as I have said they are part of what I am and what I do

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                                 mischeviousmeposted 13 years agoin reply to this

                                 And they are important to you?
                                 
                                 I am not saying that the level of fulfillment you get fromm rituals aren't important. I am saying that they are unimportant to God or what have you. We get personal satisfaction from what we do and then it does not matter, because this is a world that changes and we must change with it or fall along the wayside and be left behind.

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                                    prettydarkhorseposted 13 years agoin reply to this

                                    it is important to me because after performing those rituals I am happier, as I have said it is part of me, of who I am.  Rituals can be learn through your culture and socialization plus what you deemed important yourself.

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                                       mischeviousmeposted 13 years agoin reply to this

                                       I'm just an observer. I pose these questions for purposes of personal enlightenment and they are not meant to offend.

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                                          prettydarkhorseposted 13 years agoin reply to this

                                          I understand and I am not offended. I also understand your search for answers.

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               Michele Travisposted 13 years agoin reply to this

               I do understand what you have said about the 10 commandments and the first being the most contereversial.  But, it is mostly about loving God with all your heart and soul, and having no other gods before him.  Medition is fine.  It lets people communticate with God, they can put all kinds of things out of theirs minds and simply pray, or allow God to speak to them.   At leas that is something I think about.  At least you don't have to watch some of the stuff on tv.  Some of the tv shows are getting very wierd.  Like the Kardashians or something like that.

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                  mischeviousmeposted 13 years agoin reply to this

                  I don't watch tv. While I do have one, it is unimportant and does nothing but fuel ego. The only thing I can say is, continue what you do. If it makes you feel better about life, do it. I am stating a truth, as I have seen it. Rituals mean nothing and are unimportant. What is important is one's connection to the hear and now and if God is part of it. Then that is even better.

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                  prettydarkhorseposted 13 years agoin reply to this

                  right. when you meditate you also feel more attuned to yourself. I agree with the TV stuff

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                     mischeviousmeposted 13 years agoin reply to this

                     The tv is a box with moving pictures and is almost always negative in content. The tv will not help me find my answers, only I can find them. This the meaning of the solitary path. I can gleem nothing new by the words of the past, though the only words we know were formed long ago.
                     
                     Maybe it is because of this that we make constant refferences to past events and not about the now of things. As long as we live in past events, we are doomed to repeat them, good or bad. One must change, not repeat.

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                        Michele Travisposted 13 years agoin reply to this

                        I agree with both of you.  You have very good ways of stating your opinions.
                        In learning about the past, we do not have to repeat, the horrors of the past.

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      Seek-n-Findposted 13 years agoin reply to this

      It is what is in a man or woman's heart that counts.  It is the motive more than the ritual or lack-there-of that matters most.  Example:  Say a husband had a "ritual" of kissing his wife on the forehead every night when he got home.  If he does this to love her--to show her in a consistent way that he cares--then there is a pure motive and heart behind it and the ritual just becomes a tool or a means of expression.  BUT, if the husband kissed her on the head every night because he felt like he had to, but really was thinking about some other woman--or he did it to keep her quiet, then the ritual is no longer about love.  It has become a deceptive tool that on the surface claims one thing, but is not true to what is behind the motive.

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         mischeviousmeposted 13 years agoin reply to this

         I kiss my girlfriend on the way to work and I kiss her when I see her again. This a worldly ritual and it really only means that I love my girlfriend. What I was pointing out, is that rituals mean nothing to God. I am also saying that rituals mean everything to humans. It is a personal choice to perform rituals and I don't believe that they are important, in the long run.
         
         I remember when I was little. I asked many questions and instead of getting answers, I was shown rituals. They would say things that I did not understand and then they would tell me I had to them or else I would go somewhere evil and painful. Rituals are fine, they just, as I said, are not important. What I believe is not important either, so it is up to you if you wish to perform rituals. I can only say what I believe for myself and nothing more.

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            Seek-n-Findposted 13 years agoin reply to this

            I totally agree with meaningless acts being meaningless to God.  He wants our hearts, not empty habits.  I also am sorry that those are the kinds of answers you received as a child--that wasn't helpful at all!  I think I agree with the heart of the matter that you are addressing.  I was just pointing out that it is often the way a tool is used, not the tool itself, that can be either good or evil.

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               mischeviousmeposted 13 years agoin reply to this

               Rituals will not help me find the answers that are right in front of me. The answsers are simple but the language is difficult. I can only say in so many words, what I experience and no ritual will get me any closer to the answers I seek. We only make things look more complicated, but God is simple and we over complicate it because it is so hard to understand.

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   Druid Dudeposted 13 years ago

   Obsesive compulsive behavior...look it up.

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      mischeviousmeposted 13 years agoin reply to this

      Yes... Ritual behavior is a sign of obsessive compulsive disorder. That means absolutely nothing, because I am talking about religious ritual behavior. Which is meaningless and will earn noone a place in heaven, if it exists.

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      prettydarkhorseposted 13 years agoin reply to this

      ethnocentrism, look it up.
      
      OCD is a psychological sickness coined by Western medicine and that people in some parts of the world may not know.

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         mischeviousmeposted 13 years agoin reply to this

         I am not talking about psychology. What I speak of is the value of things from a point of mind. The medical side was not part of the equasion.
         
         If you wish to speak of psychology, where do you wish to start? Freud, Jung?

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            prettydarkhorseposted 13 years agoin reply to this

            Some other time, I am the designated cook today, busy in the kitchen preparing  New Years food 
            
            About the OCD thing I was responding to Druid Dude.
            
            Happy New Year to you and everyone here!

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      ban me1posted 13 years agoin reply to this

      Obsessive compulsive behaviour is rubbish. I have Tourettes syndrome. That's awesome.

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   paradigmsearchposted 13 years ago

   

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