Revelation - Many Crowns on His Head

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   manycrownsonheadposted 13 years ago

   Hi,
   
   This is Caleb Christopher from India (Chennai, Tamil Nadu).  I read few forums on Revelation in this website. I have been reading Revelation for almost twenty years and would like to share few of my thoughts on Revelation.
   
   Generally, there is an opinion that Revelation has already happened.  But I strongly believe that Revelation is yet to happen.  This Revelation is written by the disciple John who is still living in the world (John 21:22).
   
   God has blessed me to learn this book in depth and I would be happy to share my learnings with everyone who is interested to learn Revelation.
   
   Thanks,
   
   Caleb Christopher

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      Brenda Durhamposted 13 years agoin reply to this

      Please read verse 23 also, plus the previous ones.  You've made a statement that John still lives based upon one single verse, and even that verse doesn't definitely support your claim.  Matter of fact, verse 23 is likely to discount your claim.

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         vector7posted 13 years agoin reply to this

         Well done on the contexting Brenda. Nice to see you still doing God's work.
         
         

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            Brenda Durhamposted 13 years agoin reply to this

            Thank you vector7.  I've noticed the same about you, brother.

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   Jeramiposted 13 years ago

   Thank You ...  I will take you up on your invitation and ask you these questions though they are formated as a statement. And I invite you to give me your opinion to this post.
      Thank you in advance for your opinion.
   ???
    
   The visions described in the book of Revelation ar exactly that.
   The description of the dream/vision.  NOT the interpretations, as was also given in the book of Daniel.
   
     1:19  "...write the thngs which thou HAST seen, and the things which ARE, and the things which SHALL be hereafter".
     What does this indicate?
   
     C. 12 describes the messiah coming into this world in the flesh; the birth of Jesus,
     C. 2 describes the condition AT THAT TIME.
   
     1:1 "... things which must shortly come to pass ..."
     1:3 "... for the time is at hand"
    
     Jesus even made several coments such as ; these things are knocking at the door.
     Jesus described the great tribulation PRIVATELY with Peter, James, John and Andrew (Mathew 24:3); Telling THEM, when YOU see this and that, when these things happen to YOU, you should know...; (24:34) that this generation shall not pass till ALL these things be fulfilled.
      "There are some standing here which shall see the son of man coming in the clouds"
      The time of the rapture is even fortold in the book of Daniel!
     11:45  (my words)  when the 14th king belonging to the FOURTH kingdom comes to his end, "AT THAT TIME" shall Michael stand up for the children of THY people, there shall be a time of trouble such as never was while there is a nation of Israel.
   
      "... and AT THAT TIME thy people shall be delivered, everyone that shall be found written in the book".
      
      Over the centuries, it has been branded into our subconcious minds that we are suposed to interpret these simple statements into something else, which then confuses almost every issue of scripture.
       Our preconcieved ideas are blinding us from understanding the simplest of things.

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      Disappearingheadposted 13 years agoin reply to this

      I have much to agree with Jerami on these things. The point is, Jesus stated that the catastrophes that were to fall upon Jerusalem indicating the end of the age DID happen within that generation. Therefore the end of the age has come some 1950-ish years ago. He also said that the apostles would not finish going through all the towns of Israel before the end came. I find it impossible to believe they failed, and therefore the end came.
      
      Everything Paul said was said with the expectation that the end was imminent. If we exclude Revelation, then we have nothing, nada, nil, from the NT to convince us that the end of the age did not happen and that it must somehow be delayed by over 2000years to the 21st century.
      
      Consider Revelation 1:3, "take to heart what is written in it, because the time is near". That means soon to come to pass, not 2000 years. Or 1:19 " `Write the things that thou hast seen, and the things that are, and the things that are about to come after these things". About to come, suggests soon.
      
      If we study the beliefs of those around in the first century, and the historical events, we can see that just about everything in Revelation up to the point of Jesus' return has already happened. Now the expectation was that his return was imminent. When it did not apparently happen, the Church kept putting it off into the future, then reinterpreting the events of Revelation to fit events in their times. Even now people still do this and think that seven headed beast is a European federal state and the mark is a chip implant.
      
      John, whoever he was and there is no evidence he was the apostle John, wrote what he "saw". Coloured by his imagination and personal interpretation, based on his knowledge of folklore and, world events, he gave us this book. Real or imagined?
      
      For me much of it must have been imagined. He "saw" four living creatures in the Heavens. Gentiles thought the stars were gods but as a Jew he knew there was one God, so he thinks stars are angelic beings and comets are dragons. The four creatures around four sides of heaven correspond to constellations on four sides of the zodiac. The creature that looked like a lion is Leo, the ox is Taurus the bull, the man creature is Aquarius, and the Eagle is Scorpio because in Babylonian astrology they saw an eagle rather than a scorpion as we do today. Have a look at a star chart to see for yourself.
      
      So can we take revelation literally? No. Maybe not even seriously. Maybe it just represents the rumblings of his mind.

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   Jeramiposted 13 years ago

   I do not remember where I read this, WAY long time ago when researching this stuff, I read that in 96 AD the prison on Patmos was closed down and the prisoners set free. And at that time John the Babtist, first returned to Cornith, where he again preached the testamony of Jesus.
     Also that the last recorded sighting of this John was in 109 AD.
   No record of his death has been found.
   
     There must be something concerning Jesus coming in the clouds sitting at the right hand of Glory that we Must be misunderstanding; because Jesus told the High Prist, the night before his crucifixion, that this Priest shall see this event.
      I think that we have a total misconception of this thing, the same way that the Hebrews misunderstood the way in which the Messiah will come into this world.  That is all I'm saying.

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      Disappearingheadposted 13 years agoin reply to this

      Yes Jerami, your last paragraph makes a lot of sense.

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         Jeramiposted 13 years agoin reply to this

         Good mornin Disappearinghead
         
            It is my opinion that to understand prophesy is a lot like bulding a model car. We have GOT to read the directions and (know which piece to start with)
         
           Not like a Jig Saw puzzle where we can start with almost any piece we choose.
         
         The book of Daniel describes the visions, Then Gods Messanger angel gives the interpretation. 
           I believe this is the most correct starting point.
            Most christians pick something that they LIKE from the NT, interpret this however they choose ...  AND Then .. attempt to make the beginning of the story corrispond with how they have interpreted the end to be.
         
            There is no doubt that the book of Daniel is describing four kingdoms having dominion over the land of Israel.
            It is written that the fourth kingdom has ten horns (kings) and another horn (king) comes along replacing three kings after the first ten.
            The fourth kingdom will have 14 kings, and when the 14th king comes to his end; At THAT time shall Michael stand up for the children of Daniels people.
         11:45 &  12:1
         
            We can't just disregard these things written in the book of Daniel just because they do not agree with what we want to believe.
           The book of Daniel gives us a specific timeline for these things to come to pass.   Seventy weeks!

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   manycrownsonheadposted 13 years ago

   Hi Brenda,
   
   Thanks for your post.
   
   John 21:2 - says, This is the word of Jesus which is truth that John will not die until second coming. Jesus continues to Peter, as it is already planned by God about John to live until his second coming, and it is not important to you.
   
   John 21:23 - says,  After this incident, some story (rumors) spread among the brothers that John would not die. And John clears the rumor about himself, But Jesus did not say that he would not die. And he only says that I want him to live until I come back. So this clears that there are plans of God for John to live until the second coming.
   
   Rev 1: 1,2 verses correlates the same plan of God for John.  God needs a person who to be a witness for the word of God and testimony of Jesus Christ, and all things that should happen shortly. There are many things God revealed to John in the book of Revelation. One among those is to reveal the "God's opinion about the Seven Churches".Only after the resurrection of Jesus, Churches are established by the Holy Spirit. So there is some time period requires for the growth of the Churches (7 churches mentioned in the book of revelation).
   
   This John is chosen person by God to live untill the second coming and to reveal the revelation which is yet to happen shortly.
   Another evidence:: In indian translation from the book of bible society quotes above the Revelation book as "the revelation revealed for the person who lives eternally". Note:: In tamil transation.
   
   My conclusion:: Hence John still lives in the earth by the power of Holy Spirit.

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      Brenda Durhamposted 13 years agoin reply to this

      John 21: 22 says
      "Jesus saith unto him, 'If I will that he tarry till I come, what is that to thee?  follow thou me.'"
      
      I take it that Jesus is simply telling Peter it's none of his business what plans He had in store for John.  In the previous verses, Jesus had revealed to Peter that Peter would physically die (perhaps by crucifixion; that's one possible interpretation); and Peter's curiosity had gotten the better of him and he asked two questions--who would betray Jesus? (basically, would it be John who betrayed Him? because he was looking at John, and the second question was what was gonna happen to John? (in what manner was John gonna die?)  Jesus then rebukes Peter (as He had to do several times during His journey).
      
      This is further emphasized in verse 23, where the Bible tells us that the disciples started a rumor that John was gonna live forever.  John clarifies the issue by saying, no, Jesus simply said it's none of Peter's business!
      
      The point I get about that event is that Jesus was telling the disciples to follow Him no matter what the future held for them, whether they would live a specific amount of time or not, whether they would be killed or not.  Note that He admonished them twice to "follow me" (follow Him).

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      Disappearingheadposted 13 years agoin reply to this

      Alternatively, John did live to the second coming; Jesus came and went sometime during the first or very early second century. Just about everything Jesus said about his return had been fulfilled very shortly after his resurrection. Perhaps as Jerami suggests we have completely misunderstood the coming on the clouds just as Israel completely misunderstood his first coming.

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   Brenda Durhamposted 13 years ago

   By the way, Caleb, welcome to Hubpages.
   Will look forward to your hubs.
   Revelation is of great interest to me, but I haven't specifically written hubs about it.  Other hubbers have, though; the specific one that comes to mind right now is Ms Dee, if you're interested in reading.

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   Jeramiposted 13 years ago

   Where is it written that Jesus comes only once after the resurrection?
   
     My opinion ...
     He was born in the flesh.   1st
     He came again exactly as he said that he would (not as we understand that he will).
     At this time, 144,000 Hebrews were redeemed from among man (Rapture).    2nd.
     This happened during the time that the entire population of Israel and Judea was being deported out of their promised land, and scattered across the rest of the Roman Empire. Exactly as described in Daniel 12:7.
   
     At this time the seventh seal is opened and there is silence in heaven for a period of time.
   
      AND THEN   …  After some length of time passes …  Seven trumpet judgments are determined to fall upon those living on earth who take the mark of the Beast.
   
     THEN ... (at some time later) the 144,00 are seen with Christ as described in chapter 14 & 20.             These describes the first resurrection.
   
      The 1000 years begins ... AND THEN (16:2) the seven angels are given the seven Vials/bowls.         When the first bowl was poured out there fell a noisome and grievous sore upon the men who had received the mark of the beast.
   
      This IS the bubonic plague which killed 1/2 to 2/3s of the population in Europe in the 13 century.
   
   
      When we actually read and analyze scripture, we find that the 1000 years that Satan is bound in the bottomless pit is contained within the 42 months that the beast is given to blaspheme the Lord.
   
      The sixth bowl was poured out in the early 20th century as also the sixth trumpet was sounded.
   And we are watching the kings of the earth coming together (NOW) for that last great battle.

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   Jeramiposted 13 years ago

   when we anilitically break down any issue to its basic routs, ...
       ... we find ourselves "almost" speachless;! .... Cause at that level of uderstanding  There aren't so many words that we can use in confusing ourselves with!
   
   
       It is only when the words of truth become too many that we loose intrest!

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   manycrownsonheadposted 13 years ago

   brenda tnx ur context.
     i want know from u what that mean of john21:22 "jesus answered  if i want him to live until i come"

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      Brenda Durhamposted 13 years agoin reply to this

      Hi Caleb.  I think it meant what I said above.
      I certainly do not think it meant that John is still alive today on this earth.
      Do you think he still is?

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         manycrownsonheadposted 13 years agoin reply to this

         Hi Jerami,
         
         Thanks for your comments,
         
         Your question: 1:19  "...write the thngs which thou HAST seen, and the
         things which ARE, and the things which SHALL be hereafter".
         What does this indicate?
         
         When John was in Patmos, Angel appeared before John and told the following:
         “Wite the things which thou Hast seen” -  Write the things which
         happened (past) when John & other disciples lived with Jesus
         “Which are” -  Which is happening (presently) in Patmos i.e. Angel
         appearing before John and speaking to John presently
         “And the things which shall be hereafter” – Which will happen in the
         future.  Angel showed the future to John in vision.
         
         Here the thing which I understood is Daniel had a dream whereas John
         got a vision given by God.
         
         
         Your Question:  C. 12 describes the messiah coming into this world in
         the flesh; the birth of Jesus,
         
         There is no mention that the child delivered by the woman in Chapter
         12 is Jesus. They have mentioned that the child will rule the nation
         but there is no mention that the child is Jesus and woman is not Mary.  The woman will be in the Moon as mentioned in Revelation 12:1 “Moon under her feet”. This is completely different story from Jesus Birth.
         
         Your Question: 1:1 "... things which must shortly come to pass ..."
         Things that come shortly to pass is to kill the satan and His followers and to establish the new everlasting world.
         
         Your Question: 1:3 "... for the time is at hand"
         Its an indication / time to come out of evil or from bad or from satan else you all be destroyed with him.
         
         
         Your Question: these things are knocking at the door.Your Question: Jesus described the great tribulation PRIVATELY with Peter, James, John and Andrew (Mathew 24:3); Telling THEM, when YOU see this and that, when these things happen to YOU, you should know...; (24:34) that this generation shall not pass till ALL these things be fulfilled.
         Jesus mentioned about the last days in Mathew 24 at High level.The same has been given in detail which is yet to happen in the book of revelation, revealed to John. These Generation will not be destroyed until all these happen.

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            manycrownsonheadposted 13 years agoin reply to this

            Note :: While replying Jerami i mistakenly wrote,
            
            Your Question: 1:1 "... things which must shortly come to pass ..."
            Things that come shortly to pass is to kill the satan and His followers and to establish the new everlasting world.
            
            Its not kill it is to punish.

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