Why do people insist on attacking Christianity?

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Mmargie1966posted 12 years ago
I am a Christian, and an American. I believe in the freedom to believe in anything you choose to (or not). What I don't understand is why Christianity is under attack.

I don't necessarily believe in everything the "Church" teaches, but I don't bash other religions, and frankly, I get quite offended when someone has an issue with my beliefs. They are MY beliefs and don't effect anyone but me and my family.

So, what's up with all the hate?
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  jomineposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Unless you flaunt your belief, how do others know what you believe, to attack?
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  Mmargie1966posted 12 years agoin reply to this
  I see much "flaunting" of all types of religions. Not just Christianity. Please be a bit more specific, because what you wrote doesn't really make sense to me.
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  jomineposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  If you keep your religion to yourself, how can anybody know about it to attack?
  People cannot attack Christianity, but only Christians that nobody is doing in America.
  Christianity is nonsense and you'll be ridiculed if you say nonsense, but that is not 'attack'.
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  Mmargie1966posted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Christianity is the closest "religion" I can belong to. My personal relationship is personal, just like I said. However, much of what I believe is being attacked, and I'm taking a stance for what I believe. I have remained silent for a while now, just reading what all those have to say about my brethren.
  
  If you don't understand, I'm sorry for that. I just want to be heard and I have that right, THANK GOD. I am a Christian. Leave me and mine alone. Believe what you wish; I have no ill will toward you. Believe what you will, I personally won't judge you.
  
  Just stop judging me.
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  jomineposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Believe what you want nobody is going to attack you.(If you are a paranoid like CE, this may not make sense to you).
  But the moment you say or write your belief in PUBLIC, you will be ridiculed if it is nonsense, understand? Just like you got the right to say nonsense in public, others have the right to say your nonsense is nonsense,
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  Mmargie1966posted 12 years agoin reply to this
  I understand, jomine. I accept the ridicule. I knew it would come. I just wanted to know why people blame Christians for so much. Some is warranted, and some not. However, I'm getting my answers. My personal relationship will never change. I won't be influenced. I'm not trying to influence you. It just hurts me when we are all lumped together and blamed for all whats wrong in the world.
  
  I guess its like being a victim of racism or sexism. I love people...just like Jesus. You can believe, or not...I still love people. I pray for the best for all. I pray for love and for peace.
  
  ...and selfishly, I want to be heard, I'm not paranoid!
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  jomineposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  I cannot answer for others.
  For me,
  God is irrational and illogic
  People who believe illogical things can act so, like the 9/11 perpetrators and terrorists, so people should be asked to think logically.(I bet you too think logically most times except about your god).
  Christians are blamed most because westerns are more familiar with Christianity and it is the majority one and there are more free thinkers in west, while in Muslim countries most are indoctrinated and those who are not, are punished. Again all the ridicule occur while discussing, only a Christian will try to discuss religion while Muslims are mostly certain and think it as the only truth and don't come for discussion.
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  Mmargie1966posted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Again, I'm not trying to convert anyone. I just feel my religion (or as close as I can come to a religion) is being attacked. Honestly, its mostly here in America via the news.
  
  However, I understand we have our differences in opinion of my beliefs, and I'm okay with that. I don't expect everyone to agree with me. I respect your opinion, and all I ask is that you respect mine.
  
  That is what FREEDOM is! So many centuries ago, we weren't allowed to disagree. It was up to the government to determine what we were to believe.
  
  I'm glad we can be friends and have disagreements.
  
  Do you get my point?
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  Mmargie1966posted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Truly....is it all Christians? I think its all caused by differences in belief. No one religion is causing the havoc.
  
  Really? Think about it. There are always two sides or more. And what about the conspiracy theories? That's a whole different thread I just might start. LOL
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  jomineposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  All my best friends are religious. My mom goes to church everyday. But that does not stop me from telling them what they say is nonsense if we ever discuss religion and we discuss it quite frequently.
  We know we are not attacking each other but only what we say, so we still remain friends.
  See the difference? Saying what one say is wrong, is not personal attack.
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  Mmargie1966posted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Thanks for the respect, jomine. I respect your right to believe what you feel is right for you.
  
  Be safe, be happy, be loved, my friend.
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  Claire Evansposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  I find it astonishing that Jomine goes on about what is illogical and irrational when he believes the absurd that 19 hijackers, 5 who have rocked up alive, waltzed part airport security, hijacked planes and NORAD didn't think it was appropriate to react and despite no paper trail leading to Al Qaeda, they still are guilty. Really? REALLY? LMAO!!
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  Emile Rposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  It could be worse. He could claim corporations are controlled by Satan, or that the pope is satanic. Anyone who claims that should definitely be laughed at. Repeatedly.
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  Claire Evansposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Emile, how much research have you done into the Vatican? For example, did you know this?
  
  "Malachi Martin was a Catholic priest, theologian, writer on the Catholic Church, and professor at the Vatican's Pontifical Biblical Institute. He was a controversial commentator on the Vatican and other matters involving the Church.[1]
  
  There could be no one more credible about this matter than this person.
  
  "OF THOSE that have accused the Vatican of being infiltrated by satanists, none has been as widely noticed as the late Malachi Martin. An expert on the Dead Sea Scrolls, he also wrote about such widely diverse topics as exorcism, Church history and modern geopolitics. None of his books have been so controversial — or so misunderstood or ignored by the mainstream press — as his works that deal with this ominous and sensitive topic.
  
  Martin had first made explicit reference to a diabolic rite held in Rome in his 1990 non-fiction best-seller about geopolitics and the Vatican, The Keys of This Blood, in which he wrote:
  
  Most frighteningly for [Pope] John Paul [II], he had come up against the irremovable presence of a malign strength in his own Vatican and in certain bishops’ chanceries. It was what knowledgeable Churchmen called the ‘superforce.’ Rumors, always difficult to verify, tied its installation to the beginning of Pope Paul VI’s reign in 1963. Indeed Paul had alluded somberly to ‘the smoke of Satan which has entered the Sanctuary’. . . an oblique reference to an enthronement ceremony by Satanists in the Vatican. Besides, the incidence of Satanic pedophilia — rites and practices — was already documented among certain bishops and priests as widely dispersed as Turin, in Italy, and South Carolina, in the United States. The cultic acts of Satanic pedophilia are considered by professionals to be the culmination of the Fallen Archangel’s rites.
  (p. 632. Emphasis added)
  
  "Malachi Martin documents that a Black Mass was held in St Paul's Cathedral in 1963. During this heinous affair, several cardinals "installed Lucifer to his appropriate place" in the Vatican, as "head of the church."
  Martin claims that a good deal of the child molestation occurring now is actually Satanic worship. Part of the Luciferian rites of many of the priests, nuns, and hierarchy. He intimates that many who engage in this kind of "worship" are indeed secret Masons.
  
  Malachi Martin was himself a Jesuit priest, in a high official capacity in the Vatican. "In God's Name" has a photograph of Malachi Martin, seated right next to Pope John Paul I--the Pope that was murdered. Martin is seated between Pope John Paul I (who is on the Papal Throne) and Diego Lorenzi, an aide who accompanied John Paul I from Venice, where he was previously.
  
  Alberto Rivera also says that he attended, as a Jesuit, a Black Mass in the Vatican. With the Jesuits. Martin himself did not attend the Black Mass, but he knew of it. He later resigned the Jesuits--around 1972.He was "Laicized" so that he could write books on the corruptions he had seen in the Vatican.
  
  He recently passed away in 1999. Some Catholics think he was murdered. He also wrote a blockbuster entitled "The Jesuits: The Society of Jesus and the Betrayal of the Roman Catholic Church." In that book, he details how the Jesuits became Communists in the 1960's, under their then Secretary General, Pedro Arrupe. And he documents how they fomented Communist revolutions in several countries--especially in Latin American and Africa."
  
  http://www.puritans.net/news/malachimartin.htm
  
  Do not condemn something you don't understand. As for Satanic corporations...just look at their symbols.
  
  By the way, did you know that one of the hijacker's passport was found in the debris and wasn't singed? It's by majik that the towers made of steel fell because of a fire that was dying. In case you didn't know, thick black smoke indicates a dying fire. And WTC7, no plane went into there, just collapsed on itself like a demolition. But that is more plausible it went down by fire, one of only three building in history, along with the twin towers to ever fall from fire, than Satanism being in the Vatican.
  
  Anyone who believes the official 9-11 story is in denial, ignorant or just plain dull.
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  Emile Rposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Oh, you reference ignorance. That's obviously a can of worms you aren't ready to relinquish control of yet.
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  Claire Evansposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  In other words, you can't refute what I've said.
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  Emile Rposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Why would I bother to attempt to refute ignorant nonsense?
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  Claire Evansposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Okay, continue to believe 19 hijackers were responsible for 9-11. Don't let me or reason or the facts stop you.
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  Emile Rposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  For the record...I think George Bush had a heavy hand in that. Which means the Christians are as responsible for the bombing as the Muslims.
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  MelissaBarrettposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  *flinches* I'm going to give my honest opinion here and then I'm gonna get attacked...
  
  If you piss another group of people off in your God's name and then basically say it is your right to do so... then don't stand around looking confused when that group does something to you.
  
  I don't particularly agree with the idea of blowing up buildings but...err... didn't we do that to them too? Or is there a particular reason we can do that but they can't? And why are we so arrogant that we believe we can do anything we want to anyone else without them responding?
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  Mmargie1966posted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Don't even try to intimidate me into keeping my opinion to myself because you disagree.
  
  How childish of you.
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  MelissaBarrettposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  I'm confused again... how does me giving an opinion or a point made by another poster in response to a post from still another poster on a subject that has nothing to do with anything that you've talked about intimidate you?
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  Mmargie1966posted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Honey....are you drinking?
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  Emile Rposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Hey. No argument here. When they had that picture on the internet and everyone was claiming it looked like a devil head coming out of the smoke of the towers; I knew that, if it were real, it could just as easily be from our side as theirs. There are atrocities enough to go around.
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  MelissaBarrettposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  I attack certain aspects of Christianity because there are problems that need fixed. Not really that hard to understand yet almost every Christian on the boards that hears that flips crap and denies that any problem has ever existed with Christianity... ever...
  
  If you are one of those types then it is your fault that Christianity is being attacked... at least in part...
  
  If you are not one of those types then it is partially your fault if Christianity is being attacked because you are not self-policing the members of the faith that are ignoring the elephant in the room because of zealotry...
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  Mmargie1966posted 12 years agoin reply to this
  It is not my responsibility to control the actions or beliefs of others whether they call themselves Christians or not.
  
  Thanks for your belief in my ability to have that kind of power, but truly I can only speak for myself.
  
  I do my best not to judge. I believe what I believe and don't push it on others. It sounds like your beef is with someone other than me.
  
  However, I respect your opinion and thank you for your response.
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  MelissaBarrettposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Am I my brother's keeper?
  
  If it is not your responsibility to control what other's do in Christianities name then it will ultimately be your burden when other people think of you when you say you are a Christian...
  
  If you allow Christians to destroy the name and image of the religion then you have no right to complain when you are found guilty by association.
  
  Those who stand by and allow others to use Christ's name to do harm and do nothing to stop it have failed Christ and have done the same thing as standing by whistling while someone was beaten in front of them... because it wasn't their place to get involved... Which really isn't in any Christian teaching I've ever read...
  
  Just sayin'
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  Mmargie1966posted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Realistically, how can I possibly be held responsible for radical Christians? Why don't you hold me responsible (personally) for Islamic radicals? I am one person. I have a personal relationship with God. I believe in the Holy Trinity, but I do my best not to judge, not to persuade, and not to be hypocritical. If attacking me makes you feel better, go ahead.
  
  Nobody in the Christian faith claims to be perfect. We are all sinners and make mistakes. However, I take it personally that you blame ME for all of Christianity's faults.
  
  Again, thanks for the amount of power you give to me, but I am only able to be the keeper of my brothers' that I have communication with. And, with those, I can only offer my experience. Each of us have a choice.
  
  I'm not trying to convert you, I just don't want to be judged, or my kind to be judged, because of what we believe.
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  MelissaBarrettposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  I'm not nor have I ever attacked you...
  
  You asked why people attack Christianity and I told you. Because there are problems that Christianity refuses to fix because no one will admit they are there...
  
  And then... honestly... you immediately proved my point.
  
  You don't need to convert me... I'm already a Christian... I apparently am just one with a better understanding of why were are "being attacked"
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  Mark Knowlesposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Awesome that you do not follow what the bible says to do. Good for you. If more people ignored the instructions in the bible - there would be less fighting.
  
  But - how can an irrational belief system be under attack exactly? You think people can be forced to not believe nonsense? How does that work?
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  Mmargie1966posted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Mark, true Christianity is a relationship with God, belief in the Trinity, and trying to be Christ-like.
  
  One of my pet peeves is when someone says to me, "that's not Christian like"...well anything you do wrong IS Christian like. We are all sinners. I realize the Bible was written by men, translated over and over again, and although I do rely on the Bible as a way of life, I read it...meditate, pray, and receive what GOD wants me to get out of the passage.
  
  One thing the Bible teaches is not to judge. So I do my best not to. Again, YOUR relationship with God, or non-relationship with God is between you and Him. Its not my business.
  
  Blessings and lots of love to you, my friend, regardless of what you believe.
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  Mark Knowlesposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  You did not answer my question. How can an irrational belief system be under attack?
  
  I am not a sinner - please do not insult me by calling me one - thanks.
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  Mmargie1966posted 12 years agoin reply to this
  I don't believe it is an irrational belief system, Mark. I believe it is a personal belief system. It's mine, and it shouldn't bother you that it is.
  
  I do apologize if I offended you, it wasn't my intention. I do believe we all make mistakes and are not as good as we should be.
  
  I believe in LOVE. Love for human kind, mistakes, faults, and all. That's where forgiveness comes in. (and by forgiveness, I don't mean forgetting, but learning a lesson)
  
  Kudos if you do your best to be a compassionate, caring, non-judgemental, and loving human being.
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  Mark Knowlesposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  And still you have not answered my question. How can your "personal" (made it up yourself did you? ) irrational belief system be "under attack."?
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  Mmargie1966posted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Why you be hatin' man? LOL
  
  My belief system is NOT irrational to me. It may not be "logical" to you, but I FEEL it. God given intuition that has never let me down. When I question it, I find myself in a bad situation.
  
  I don't owe you an explanation, Mark. It is MY belief. I'm not badgering you about what you believe. Why do you insist on picking a fight with me? Why does it bother you that I believe something different than you do?
  
  We have a difference in opinion. Can you respect that or do you always have to be right?
  
  I say this religion is under attack basically because of the threads I read here. I could go into other situations where this religion is under attack, but I choose not to at this time since its 3:43am here, I can't sleep, but I'm only running on 1 brain cell. LOL
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  Mark Knowlesposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  I still don't see how it is "under attack". And you have not explained how it possibly can be.
  
  I don't care what you believe. Honestly. It only becomes an issue when you feel the need to tell others about it. Which makes you a liar. Because it is not a "personal relationship" - it is the need to tell other people what you believe. And - if you believe nonsense and tell others the nonsense you believe - surely you must expect them to tell you it is nonsense?
  
  Or - is it a one way street that you want really? You want to spread nonsense, and not have anything said back to you?
  
  This is why your religion causes so many fights.
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  Mmargie1966posted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Since you live in the country MY country fought to get away from for religious freedom, you couldn't possibly understand. We both speak English, but still two different languages.
  
  I've tried to be accepting of you as a human, regardless of your differing opinion. If you watch any American news channels, and are aware of American history, you would get my point.
  
  I'm sorry you aren't aware of the issues I speak of.
  
  I am offended, however, at your insistence of bashing me and what I believe. I've friend requested you on FB and thought we could have intelligent dialogue, but you are too close minded to even hear me. I will rescind that offer of friendship.
  
  That being said, I do wish you all the happiness and contentment in the world. I will not allow you to insult me, however.
  
  I will not be responding to your continued insults as I find it pointless.
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  Mark Knowlesposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  What insults are these exactly? How can your "personal relationship," be under attack?
  
  LOL That you think I am close minded for not believing in majik.
  
  I have not "bashed," you - I asked you a simple question which you refuse to answer. I have been honest with you. You are dishonestly claiming that your outward religion is actually a "personal relationship," when it is not. I also said that your beliefs are irrational. That is not an insult - that is the truth.
  
  This is why your religion causes so many fights.
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  Mmargie1966posted 12 years agoin reply to this
  I'm not a liar. I don't accept insults, however, adult and respectful dialogue is great. I'm not trying to convert you, Mark. I just wanted my GOD and American right to say my peace.
  
  My "religion" is under attack whether you see it or not. I want to be heard. I want a voice. I have the right and nobody will take it from me, or intimidate me into not saying anything.
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  Mark Knowlesposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Good oh - you have said your piece. It is irrational nonsense and you have still not explained how Christianity is "under attack."
  
  How are you NOT being heard? Spreading irrational nonsense and fear is what Christians do - who is stopping you from doing that exactly?
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  Mmargie1966posted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Okay...again, you and I speak different languages. I will not fight with you over religion. Either you respect me and what I believe, or you don't. You don't. You are, apparently, only one track minded and want to debate.
  
  I just want people like you to leave my kind alone. We aren't bothering you. We don't force you to believe or not.
  
  Stop with the hating.
  
  I gave you one more chance to have an adult dialogue. You failed.
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  Mark Knowlesposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Crikey! I asked a straightforward question which you have steadfastly ignored. If you want some respect - why not do me the courtesy of answering?
  
  Why should I respect what you believe exactly? It is irrational nonsense.
  
  This is why your religion causes so many conflicts.
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  Mmargie1966posted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Goodbye Mark. I will save my responses for those who have real questions.
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  Mark Knowlesposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  I have a real question.
  
  How can a "personal relationship with god," be under attack? I started out asking this and you consistently ignore it.
  
  This is why your religion causes so many conflicts.
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  Mmargie1966posted 12 years agoin reply to this
  READ THE PREVIOUS POSTS. I don't know any other way to explain it to you.
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  Mark Knowlesposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  I have read the previous posts. You did not answer at all. You claim your religion is a "personal relationship with god." You also claim that your religion is under attack.
  
  I ask how this is possible - you ignore the question. I mean - surely you could be handcuffed, bound, gagged, blindfolded and chained to the wall at the bottom of a mine shaft - and you would still have this "personal relationship," would you not?
  
  I am guessing you are not being honest about the nature of your religion and what you really mean is that your right to spout nonsense without being challenged is what is under attack.
  
  Yes?
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  Castlepalomaposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  I am not against any religious or Atheists. yet when I ask strong or hard questions and often enough they assume I am attacking or downing them.
  Then often enough the two extremes tell me they would rather deal with each other than to deal with my solution proposal. I may never understand their ugly marriage relationship. Maybe I should hang out more with spiritual sided middle grounds people who I get along better with.
  
  I can confront any question, what is the big deal, it's only words? Oh forgot, the word, is everything according to the book
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  Mmargie1966posted 12 years agoin reply to this
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  Claire Evansposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Apparently in America Christianity is quite smothering. That shouldn't mean Christianity ought to be attacked but those who impose their beliefs on others.
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  Mmargie1966posted 12 years agoin reply to this
  I agree. I'm not trying to convert you. I'm just defending myself. I have a right to believe what I want...just as you do. I'm not judging you, and I'm tired of being judged. (not necessarily by you, personally)
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  recommend1posted 12 years agoin reply to this
  And yet you started this thread to get judged, that you claim to be tired of - this is very christian behaviour in itself.
  
  As for the attacks - I have never seen anyone attacking the everyday mind your own business actual christians - but - I have seen a long string of bigots and uneducated, and simply foolish, and an array of slimy babbleologists tellling everyone how we should all live our lives, which includes such delicacies as homophobia and racism, and they all claim to be christians. Now we know that they are do not qualify the title but they claim it. If you are suggesting that I should stop opposing the moronic belifs they are trying to spread then I have to disagree. In fact I would say that it is everyone's duty to oppose such damaging drivel and the atempted re-writing of history in an effor tot drag the world back to a new dark age.
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  Mmargie1966posted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Have I judged you, recommed1? I'm not homophobic (not that its your business). I'm not racist, and I can prove it (not that its your business).
  
  I started this thread to be heard. Not all homos are the same. Not all blacks are the same. Not all Muslims are the same. Well, not all Christians are the same. That is my point.
  
  However, all haters are the same. Which group do you fall into, or are you a free thinking individual, like me?
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  Claire Evansposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  I agree. I'm not trying to convert you. I'm just defending myself. I have a right to believe what I want...just as you do. I'm not judging you, and I'm tired of being judged. (not necessarily by you, personally)
  
  I'm a Christian by the way.
  
  I am just reporting what atheists say.
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  Mmargie1966posted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Thank you for your support. I've opened a can of worms here, and find myself in defensive mode all night! However, I have no regrets, as I've been silent for a while, just reading and accepting the bashing my religion is getting. I pray for peace and love for all.
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  Claire Evansposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Sure.
  
  It is not true that you are asking to be judged because you started this forum. You have a right to know why people attack Christianity. It is too much to ask for respect, though.
  
  It is true that there are a lot of Christians who give Christianity a bad name but to use this fact as a reason to be condescending to all Christians is a cop out and childish. As you say, there are bad apples in every belief or non belief system.
  
  It's kind of me like saying that when atheists does wrong it's proof they need religion to be a good person. Each person needs to be judged on their merits and not take on the responsibility for the bad behavior of someone else who shares the same beliefs.
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  Mmargie1966posted 12 years agoin reply to this
  AMEN! Finally, someone who speaks English! LOL
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  teaches12345posted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Mmargie. I admire your belief and taking on this challenge. It's one that many would not even attempt to open. Have not regrets for living your faith. We cannot expect everyone to understand why we live as we do. It's their choice. When people do not understand things we do or say, they will question it. Sometimes attack it. Which, is not a bad thing because it causes us to strengthen our belief and may help them to understand.
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  Mark Knowlesposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  We understand just fine thanks.
  
  You don't live any differently to the rest of us. Your self righteousness is the root of the problem and the reason your religion causes so many fights.
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  teaches12345posted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Don't know what happened to my reply I posted but: I admire your beliefs. We must live our lives as our faith leads. People will always disagree with your faith and actions. Have no regrets. I too pray for peace and love for the whole world. Keep the faith!
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  Mmargie1966posted 12 years agoin reply to this
  It's a faith. Either you feel it from within or you don't. I can't explain the religion. I can only tell you what I feel. Instincts, which have never let me down. Just KNOWING right from wrong.
  
  I'm sorry, I don't have words for you. I can only tell you why I believe what I believe. It's not what any MAN has taught me. Its a faith, belief, message from a higher power.
  
  You have to experience it to understand it. I realize its not for everybody, and I'm fine with that.
  
  I just see on some of the threads here on hubpages, and things on the news that show me how people are rejecting Christianity, and I don't understand why if it doesn't effect those who don't believe.
  
  I'm not here to push my religion on anyone. I just want to be heard. I'm tired of feeling offended for my own personal right to believe what I want to.
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  MilesArmbrusterposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Mmargie,
  I am sorry that your question only proved your point. I read the threads and essentially, people used your question as an opportunity to attack Christianity. Funny how that works. It is interesting to note that the people who attacked Christianity actually answered your question. According to them, the reason that they attack you is that they think you are wrong. That gives them free reign to be insulting and nasty. Freedom of speech is a wonderful thing, but these people have really painted themselves into a corner; they claim that Christianity is the source of the discord, but they are the ones who are demonstrating hatred and division. The arguments they use prove that they are illogical and hypocritical. It always makes me wonder whether they actually read what they say...
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  Mmargie1966posted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Thank you for the support. I see exactly what you are saying. I was just asking an honest question, and whoa boy did I get some answers!
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  Chris Nealposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  It sort of depends on what you mean by "attack." Many atheists rightly believe that no one's beliefs affect only themselves. It's a cherished American institution to believe that, but it's not true. Also, many atheists think that the Christian church is locked in some kind of death struggle to force America into a theocracy, which even if it were possible is not true. Nevertheless, they are locked into a vision of Christianity circa the 14th Century, except even more brutal than it actually was (and it could be pretty darn brutal!)
  
  Look at it this way, Jesus promised us that if we follow Him, we will have problems in this world. So if you're truly under attack, then you're truly His!
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  Cagsilposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Good for you. I am not Christian, but am American also.
  This is one of the problems. It's a problem when said people believe something untrue or completely irrational. Irrationality is stupidity in motion. Being rational is being honest because that's how wisdom comes into being.
  For those who are followers are the ones failing to realize that Christianity isn't rational. It actually teaches a bigoted view- do as I say, not as I do.
  Then the only thing I could suggest is that you get over yourself and grow by introspection, never mind just reflection.
  Yes, until the point in which you vocalize them. Then they are open to public scrutiny.
  No hate. No reason to hate. Irrationality must be addressed whenever heard.
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  SidKempposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  It is sad that there is so much attack of Christians and Christianity. And MMargie, it is clear from your words that you do not deserve attack. I believe, though, that, when we accept a religion or philosophy, we accept the whole ball of wax - the bad with the good. And our choice of religion (or our choice to keep our religion of origin) is not purely private. It has social consequences as well.
  
  As Christians, it is good to honestly recognize what we Christians have done throughout history. We have persecuted Jews, Muslims, Pagans, and early rationalists and scientists. We have been part of a social and economic system that conquered the world. Our religion has been used to justify slavery. Our churches created the Inquisition and the 100 years war and the 30 years war.
  
  None of this, of course, is in accord with the teachings or life of Christ Jesus. But, in choosing to be Christians, perhaps we are reaping what Christians of past centuries have sown.
  
  We would all be best off, I think, if we attack no one, and live as examples of the best of our own faith or belief, be it Christian, Buddhist, Jewish, Muslim, Hindu, atheist, agnostic, scientist, or pagan.
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Mmargie1966posted 12 years ago
Believe me, I get flack from other Christians because I'm not completely in sync with them either. I'm out here on my own (with God), so I won't be influenced by believers and non-believers alike.

I'm just tired of feeling like I'm being attacked because of what I believe. I've decided to say something about it.

Christianity means much more than the radicals push you to believe. Just like any other religion, there are radicals. I don't blame Muslims for the radical, violent behavior that has been shown by those who claim to be a part of Islam. I know some wonderful people who are Muslim. I know some wonderful people who are Jews.

Why can't we all just respect each other and what we believe. That's all I'm saying. As for the Atheists, I feel for you. Being close to God is a wonderful, comforting feeling, and I'm sorry you are missing out on that. However, I don't judge you or look down on you for your beliefs.

All I ask for is the same treatment.
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  Claire Evansposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Join the club. Not only do some atheists insult me and twist my words around but some Christians call me crazy.
  
  You will always be attacked because Jesus was. Jesus said He came to bring a sword not peace. Testifying for God will cause a lot of backlash.
  
  It is easier to defend the Christian religion because advocated know violence and evil. As much as I respect most Muslims, I cannot respect their religion as it is originally meant to be interpreted. It is very violent. The decent Muslims actually go against the Koran while Christians who go against what Jesus taught are not decent.
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secularist10posted 12 years ago
Christians, Muslims, Jews and others that try to blend ancient values with modern values and modern lifestyles create problems for themselves and often for others around them.

Take a look at the Amish. You don't hear people like Richard Dawkins (the kind of person I assume you are referring to) spending a lot of time on them. He mostly engages with more mainstream fundamentalists--the ones who try to impose their values on others in various ways (both privately and publicly).

Learn something from the Amish, to some extent Hasidic Jews, and other groups. Ultimately, the only way to really avoid criticism from the world of modern civilization is to just avoid it altogether. But if you try to engage it in any meaningful way, be prepared for a fight. That's all. Don't bother us, we don't bother you.
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pisean282311posted 12 years ago
@ts i dont think people care whether one is christian or muslim as long as one keeps their faith personal...problem arises when religious person trys to sell their religion to others...
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Emile Rposted 12 years ago
I don't see Christianity under attack. I see what some people do with their faith being challenged. And, I see a herd mentality when someone complains that Christianity is under attack.

I've been told repeatedly by Christians that you should judge the fruit. Read the Christian posts. At times, the fruit is rotten.

Like Melissa said. Christians don't stand up to their own.

If you don't do that, why stand up at all? What's the point of this thread?
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  Motown2Chitownposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  And, those of us who do stand up to our own, like Melissa, or like me - get accused of being led astray.
  
  For example, on another thread, this original poster (who never bashes other religions) along with Claire Evans, call the Pope satanic - several times.
  
  If, as a Catholic Christian, I were to call them out on it, they would proceed to tell me all the reasons that I am not a 'true' Christian.
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  Emile Rposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  The pope isn't satanic? I always heard the pointy hat was to cover the horns.
  
  Just kidding. I think most Christians on this site don't bother to think. They are regurgitating the bs someone fed them.
  
  I think it frustrates them for you and Melissa to talk sense.
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  Motown2Chitownposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  I'm pretty sure that's the case, Emile. The talking sense, I mean, not the Pope's hat covering the horns...lol
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  Claire Evansposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  It's a fact that the Pope is Satanic. Here's a documentary for you:
  
  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-aD8TU3V … plpp_video
  
  And:
  
  And, no, it is not "Peter's Cross". Peter was crucified upside on an X-shaped cross.
  
  http://www.gotquestions.org/apostles-die.html
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  Emile Rposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  So, when you are so incredibly hateful to a devout Catholic....why do you consider it strange that others belittle your beliefs?
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  MelissaBarrettposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  A combination of "Do as I say... not as I do" and "nenerr neenerr i'm not listening"
  
  When Christians have ran Christians off from the religion and it dies out completely we have no one but ourselves to blame. And we have no one but ourselves to blame for the people who hate us... We've done it to ourselves with pride and vanity. We've done it to ourselves by all having logs in our eyes... and we did it to ourselves when we stopped being our brother's keepers and started saying "My brothers and sisters in Christ aren't Christians and we have no responsibility towards them... regardless of what Jesus said"
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  Emile Rposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  The primary problem I see with most Christians posting here is that they don't give a hoot what Jesus said. He's been sidelined since they are wiser because they have a god talking in their head.
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  Mark Knowlesposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  That is one of the most entertaining things I find about the really aggressive religionists. They crow about how many people are Christians quoting X millions in an attempt to prove that this makes Christianity correct.
  
  Then they immediately disown 99% of them.
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  MelissaBarrettposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  and that is a problem... a pretty big one...
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  Claire Evansposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  You do know you are being utterly irrational now, do you? I condemn the Vatican not Motown. Is it okay for Christians to call atheists hateful when they attack "ridiculous" beliefs that is Christianity?
  
  I suppose I must also hate Motown because I could say Catholic priests are often child rapists.
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  Motown2Chitownposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  And Protestant ministers are often adulterers, solicit prostitutes, and defraud weak minded people of their money?
  
  These things may be true - but when you say those things and expect that everyone will simply roll over and agree and not become slightly defensive on occasion (which you simply view as an 'attack' on Christianity) you have brought on the ridicule yourself.
  
  There is one Christian, one Atheist, and one Agnostic posting in this thread with whom I'm in frequent agreement. Must mean my faith has been overcome (and is now being led) by Satan? It simply means that there are people who do not insist on being so SELF-righteous that they are willing to speak truth about their religion or lack thereof.
  
  Your faith is just that - faith - belief in something unseen and unproven. When you treat others as though you know something they do not, they may become defensive. When you can prove that your belief isn't belief but knowledge of a true and indisputable fact, then you can rightfully expect to never be ridiculed or questioned about it. Until then - you do Jesus no favors by trying to 'force' others to believe in him.
  
  That is why people sometimes insist on 'attacking' Christianity. It's generally in response to Christians going on the offensive.
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  Claire Evansposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  And I am not insinuating that Catholics are the only ones guilty of these things. The point I was trying to make is that I am not being hateful stating a fact. You aren't being hateful for saying those things about Protestant ministers.
  
  Since when do I expect everyone should agree with me? I am just presenting the facts. Of course you are going to be defensive. You don't want to believe the Catholic Church is evil. I despise the fact that I have to see occult symbols in my church like the Maltese cross, dagon fish hats, etc. I am not happy about the fact that priests expect us to repeat senseless verses from the Old Testament that no one believes to be true anyway.
  
  The Christian religion needs a serious looking-in-to.
  
  How's pointing our Satanism in the Vatican self righteous??
  
  So you don't believe you know something atheists don't like the Holy Spirit's existence? And what if I do know something others don't? You believe in the Holy Spirit, do you? Then by your logic you deserve ridicule because you can't prove it as fact. And since when am I trying to force others to believe the way I do?
  
  It's just calling a spade a spade.
  
  One last question, do you believe Jesus was being hateful towards the Pharisees because of their corruption of the scriptures? Should we have said nothing in case He offended them? This is EXACTLY what Jesus mean when He said He came to bring a sword. The truth is going to upset people.
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  Emile Rposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  First, ignorance is no excuse. You know she is a devout Catholic. She hasn't attempted to hide that. If you can't see how rude your post was, even if you believe that stupid statement that you made...you might be money ahead to enroll in a sensitivity training class.
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  Motown2Chitownposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Thanks, Emile.
  
  Have no fear, I'm no shrinking violet, and I came into the Roman Catholic Church by choice, as an adult. When that happens, you tend to see the Church through very different glasses than those outside of it (who, truth be told, were probably born and raised in it and are now in brutal and violent rebellion against it) or those inside of it who have never really understood it, but simply have gone through the motions.
  
  And, there are lots of motions in the Catholic Church...great place to be if you need aerobic activity. All that stand, sit, kneel...
  
  Edit: Malachi Martin would be one of those who could be seen as one who used to be inside the Church, but is now violently and brutally rebelling against it.
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  Claire Evansposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  How many times have you been rude to me?? Don't be a hypocrite! You call me anti-Christ, like the Pharisees, etc. You know we are Christians but that doesn't stop you or any other atheist from being "rude" about our religion!
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  janesixposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  The Satanic Superforce!
  
  You crack me up claire.
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  Emile Rposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Claire, out of respect for the figure of Christ I find your views offensive. I tell you what, stop dragging his name through the mud by loosely associating yourself with the name, call yourself something else and I'll be glad to give a wide berth to your bigoted views.
  
  Does that sound fair?
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  Motown2Chitownposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  This youtube video is seriously your 'proof' that the Pope is satanic?
  
  Ever read any of John Paul II writings? Ever read a biography of him? Do you know Pope Benedict's history?
  
  Yep, the Pope must be satanic. I'm convinced now. Thank you so much for saving me from the whore that is the Roman Catholic Church.
  
  The Church calls herself a woman because she is considered the "Bride of Christ."
  
  That's as far as I'll go trying to explain Catholicism to you. Please be advised, VERY CLEARLY, however, that the history of Roman Catholicism is the history of Christianity. It is the remnant of the Christian Church prior to the schism of the Eastern Orthodox Church, then the Protestant Reformation, followed quite quickly by the formation of the Church of England.
  
  I know of many folks who believe what you do, and it isn't because you've an inside take on Scripture. It's because the greatest divisions that Christianity have always come from within, just like in Judaism. There are more sects of Christianity today than there were Judaism in Christ's time, but it all boils down to the same thing - everyone is more concerned about being right than being faithful.
  
  With all my heart, I try to be faithful, because so far, the only one who's ever been right is Jesus.
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  Claire Evansposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  
  Oh, I see those four hours went rather quickly then.
  
  I don't have to know all that. I just have to know what institute the Vatican is and the symbols they associate themselves with. I also take the testimonies of those in the Vatican who claimed Satanism is in the Vatican.
  
  So what does the upside cross mean then?
  
  She's the whore of Babylon, not a "Bride of Christ":
  
  And the woman was arrayed in purple and scarlet colour, and decked with gold and precious stones and pearls, having a golden cup in her hand full of abominations and filthiness of her fornication:
  And upon her forehead was a name written, MYSTERY, BABYLON THE GREAT, THE MOTHER OF HARLOTS AND ABOMINATIONS OF THE EARTH.
  
  Revelation [17:4-17:5]
  
  Page 37 of Catholic historian Theodore Maynard's The Story of American Catholicism says, "“It has often been charged..that Catholicism is overlaid with many pagan incrustations. Catholicism, it must be added, is ready to accept the accusation—and even to make it her boast."
  
  Isn't paganism contrary to Christianity? Here's an example of a correlation between Babylon and the Vatican:
  
  This relief from an ancient Babylonian site shows priests of Dagon with pails of "holy water" and hyssop bushes to sprinkle faithful worshipers. This ritual is still seen today in the Catholic and Orthodox religions.
  
  Priests of Dagon the fish god wore mitres and capes like the Pope.
  
  http://brothermike777.multiply.com/jour … nal%2Fitem
  
  One of the things that has also disturbed me is the Vatican's support of occultist Hitler.
  
  http://www.iiipublishing.com/religion/c … itler.html
  
  But faithful shouldn't mean closing your mind to the truth. By attacking Catholicism, I am attacking my own religion because Catholicism is a branch of it.
  
  It doesn't matter how much evil has infiltrated the Catholic Church it cannot take away your personal relationship with God.
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  Motown2Chitownposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Claire, I've no desire to engage in any sort of argument with you about whether your 'facts' are or are not irrefutable. I've been well 'inside' the Roman Catholic Church.
  
  Did I watch the four hour video? Uh - no. Have I seen others like it? Yup. I think they're all paranoid nonsense.
  
  Odd, that you can call John Paul II satanic and yet have absolutely no knowledge of his personality, history, or ministry. But you have the nerve to upbraid me for not watching a four hour video on youtube.
  
  *shakes head* If that's where you're getting your Christian education, it's not much of a wonder why you believe so differently from mainline Christians.
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  Claire Evansposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Are you an insider to the going-ons of the Vatican like Malachi Martin??
  
  I don't have to know his history no one can become Pope without abiding by their Satanic agenda or else they land up like Pope John Paul 1.
  
  Pope Paul VI said:
  
  "From some fissure the smoke of Satan has entered the temple of God."
  
  http://www.vatican.va/holy_father/paul_ … t.html#top
  
  If someone doesn't want to be accused of being a Satanist then they shouldn't associate themselves with Satanic symbols like our current Pope. Just read the article:
  
  http://www.cuttingedge.org/news/n2029.cfm
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  Motown2Chitownposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Claire, this particular argument has been raging against Roman Catholicism and the Vatican for decades - perhaps even centuries. I don't need to read the article and won't - because it's nothing that hasn't been said or written before. Again, it's paranoid nonsense, and my personal opinion is that those who believe it are no different from any other conspiracy theorists. It doesn't hurt me that you post it, but it saddens me that through all this crap, you give Satan the control that he wants - OVER YOU - and you allow him to do what he does best - divide and conquer.
  
  When I first came to Christ, I read book after book after article after article condemning the Catholic Church. It never resonated truth to me. Do I believe that Satan influences members and leaders of the Church? I certainly do - but it happens to members and leaders of EVERY denomination.
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JLHulseyposted 12 years ago
People fear what they do not understand, and I think most of the bashing comes from people who do not understand Christianity. I am a very devote Christian with a degree in Christian music, and I have found, when you talk about your faith openly and honestly with people, it makes non-Christians uncomfortable. It is like they know we Christians have something they don't, so the only way they can justify that they are right is to bash Christians. They don't get why we get so excitied about Jesus, and why we can share that excitment with others even if they don't belive. I personally think that the people who are doing the bashing are afraid that we Christians are onto something, but they are too afraid to latch on to what we have. That means they think the only way they can justify their fear is to hate on the people who believe. All we can do is show these people the love of Jesus and hope we can plant a seed in them that will blossom into a flower of belief.
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  Mark Knowlesposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  This is condescending nonsense. You don't know anything we don't know. I must admit to being uncomfortable around people who claim majik is real. Especially your psychotic god thingy that will burn me for eternity if I use my mind.
  
  Please stop the hate and attacking me for not believing nonsense. Thanks.
  
  This is why your religion causes so many conflicts.
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  h.a.borcichposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Some things never change
  
  JL - I think there is a lot of truth in your view. People are very uncomfortable with what they don't understand and/or are afraid of.
  
  And Mark - JLs post was his observation - nothing personal at you or anyone who does or doesn't believe. You took it personal and started bashing a person not a belief. Why am I not suprised?
  
  Carry on....
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  Mark Knowlesposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Nothing personal? You guys think that people are uncomfortable because they don't understand something? When in actual fact we understand just fine we just disagree and think it's irrational nonsense. Don't you see how condescending this is?
  
  Why would you choose to defend this person who signed up less than an hour ago just to get involved in a religious argument?
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  h.a.borcichposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Mark - you are making assumptions fast.
  
  I personally get uncomfortable with views/situations I do not understand and/or are afraid of. That is human nature. I identify with that and see other people do it everyday. So I commented on it.
  
  Just because JLs opinion was broad and not personal, did not make it condecending - you chose to take it that way. There are articles out there about how having children is a crime against the planet. They can blame it on religous people, etc. but it doesn't make it personal or condecending. It is one person expressing a broad opinion.
  
  I decided to participate in a discussion that interested me. Period. I don't evaluate the "age" of a hubber in opting to participate in a discussion.
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  Mark Knowlesposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  No –it is condescending. To suggest that the only reason people “bash Christianity" is because they don't understand it, is not only condescending it is also offensive.
  
  Did you even bother reading what she had written? If not I suggest you go back and read it, because it is completely condescending.
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  h.a.borcichposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Really Mark?
  "You guys" - ? I have to answer for all religious people?
  It looks like a condecending opinion is ok as long as YOU agree with it. That goes for being offensive too I see.
  
  Face it - we are all allowed our own opinion/viewpoints. That you get so hostile over JL or me for sharing a view you disagree with only says you are having an issue. Take a chill pill, relax, enjoy the conversation. There is nothing to fear except tolerance maybe.
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  Mark Knowlesposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  No - she was being condescending.
  
  Christians get so aggressive when their beliefs are challenged, and demonstrate their complete lack of tolerance for anything outside of their narrow worldview.
  
  I know you don't understand thats because you're too busy defending your irrational belief system to even bother reading what was written.
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  h.a.borcichposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  You really think I am "too busy defending irrational beliefs" to have a clue to this conversation? Really?
  
  You must consider yourself a mind reader? LOL You have no clue what I have been doing or believing. But it is obvious you don't have reservations about being offensive or condecending yourself. Just like always.
  
  Thankfully I do not need your blessings to have an opinion or share it
  
  See ya...
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  Mark Knowlesposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  I see you don't like it turned back at you, do you?
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  h.a.borcichposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  LMAO Mark, I shared my opinion on human nature Not backing anyone or any faith. Go ahead, reread it. And it has you yapping and biting at my heels like a freaked out tiny dog.
  For someone who claims to want free thinking to be the standard, you sure are quick to get emotionally riled and hostile. Are you sure you want people to think for themselves, or is it a meaningless thought you hide behide? Seems impotent to me.
  Safe to say my opinion is still my own. You haven't changed it yet, nor have you run me into the corner recanting...
  " People fear what they don't understand or agree with." And you prove it up nicely.
  Go ahead, yap some more Your style hasn't changed at all.
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  Mark Knowlesposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Dear me.
  
  No wonder your religion causes so many fights.
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  Castlepalomaposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  I have no problem when people challenge me about my life and what I do because it is base on good sense and nature and it flows with answers that are manifest into more graceful happiness rather than suffering in an over ego world.
  
  Religion is not designed to get along because of it's absurd laws, wars, ad only way to God (Yahweh) approach, which they rather fight than switch. What do I care, it is not for my soul or life to be taken from an one side over ego group claiming all spirituality and the whole Universe.
  
  Be Christlike and keep thou Religion to thou self, but that is like putting them in a round world and telling to preach in a corner, it won't happen, Too much of Christianity is based on fear, not enough love and respect for other people who live and let live. Christianity is not designed for most other groups on earth and people who think for themselves. For we are what we think, not what we must over obey to be saved from the vices of Hell which draws most members of fear to Christianity.
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BrianMI6posted 12 years ago
Jesus Christ said that the world is going to hate those who follow him. What Christians believe is directly opposed to what the rest of the world believe.

Let's consider a few:

The World Says: your an animal, so we can't expect people to do anything BUT have sex before marriage. So we should encourage safe sex.

The Bible says: shut up about what you want. Don't have sex before marraige. End of discussion.

The World Says: you can divorce for any reason

The Bible says: you cannot divorce for any reason except adultry

The World Says: homosexual behavior is not to be condemned

The Bible says: it is to be condemned harshly

The World says: there are many paths to god

The Bible says: there is only ONE path to God

The World says: there is no such thing as hell so nobody has to worry about going there

The Bible says: there is such a place as hell and almost everyone is going there

The World says: if there IS a hell, God wouldn't put anyone there simply for lying... because everyone lies.

The Bible says: ALL liars will have their place in the fire

See the pattern? Christians have a standard and they point to it, the world has NO standard, in fact they PRIDE themselves in having no standard. The first and greatest commandment found in the Bible is to love the Lord your God with all your heart, mind, soul, and strength. The first commandment of the world is to seek tolerance and never tell anyone that their beliefs are sinning.

We're diametrically opposed. That's why Christ told us we'll be persecuted and the Apostle Paul said in 2 Timothy 4 that "ALL those who desire to live a godly life will be persecuted."
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  Ron Montgomeryposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Why do you hate "the world"?
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  Mark Knowlesposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Are you telling me that Christians live a godly life? Because as far as I know the divorce rate among Christians is higher than any other group.
  
  “do as I say, not as I do." Seems to be the Christian ethos–this is why so many people call you not because you live a better life than we do.
  
  When the Christian divorce rate comes down to 0%, maybe you'll have something to say.
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Ron Montgomeryposted 12 years ago
I admit, I don't understand what drives people to become Christians.
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Ron Montgomeryposted 12 years ago
A rape victim must marry her rapist.

God or World?
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  Castlepalomaposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  That's when cavemen clubbed the women over their head and had their way with women.
  
  Man, times have changed
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  Ron Montgomeryposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Not really. Devout Christian wives still can't divorce their husbands, even after a clubbing and rape.
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  Castlepalomaposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Your right, it gets worst. lol lol
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  Ron Montgomeryposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  My right what?
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Mmargie1966posted 12 years ago
Mark Knowles is just on this thread for a fight. He obviously has no intention of having an adult dialogue about religion, or the state of the world as it is today with respect for others' beliefs.

He is closed minded, one sided, and down right mean to those he disagrees with.

My suggestion is to ignore his participation on this thread. I have.

Notice the ending of most of his comments..."your religion causes so many fights"
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  Mark Knowlesposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  I asked several questions which you studiously avoided answering. If you would care to answer them instead of this faux righteous indignation that is fooling no one - maybe we could progress? In case you have forgotten:
  
  How can a "personal relationship with god," be under attack?
  Why should I respect your irrational beliefs?
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  Motown2Chitownposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  And notice that he's right? We Christians in this thread are fighting among ourselves! As an Atheist, Mark doesn't even really have a dog in this fight, except that perhaps he could possibly be offended (and understandably so) by the fact that you're acting like an elementary school kid on the playground and telling all your little friends to ignore him. Is that your way of hoping he feels Christ's love from you?
  
  Mark and I have been round and round on more than one occasion, but we've had fruitful dialogue as well. He's a person - even if you disagree with him. And he most certainly has a right to his opinion (AND for it to be heard in this forum).
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  Mmargie1966posted 12 years agoin reply to this
  I have taken his abuse for hours, and into the morning here on the east coast of USA. I answered his questions. I'm offended that you have stooped to his level of immaturity, however, I choose to answer your response. ONCE.
  
  I am a Christian. In America, there are lots of things that have recently happened (exclusion of the word God in most cases) and on hubpages there are a few threads that are bashing our faith.
  
  My personal relationship with God is just that...personal. However, I believe in most of what the Christian faith teaches. Therefore, I'm asking, on this thread, why? Why is this religion in particular being attacked when other religions all over the world are involved in wars and violence, as well.
  
  Mr. Knowles has called me names, and refused to accept my answers. I feel that he is only on this thread to cause havoc. I've seen it with other responders also.
  
  I don't appreciate your insults and I don't appreciate his.
  
  I am merely asking a question. I have that right. I am not trying to persuade you or anyone, and I will not be persuaded by you or anyone. I only ask for respect for my beliefs, as I respect yours (and his).
  
  I haven't received it as of yet. So, I choose to ignore anyone not adult enough to have a decent conversation without childish name calling simply because they don't agree with me.
  
  Get it? I hope so, because, Ms. motown2chitown...I have nothing left to say to you either, unless you agree to disagree on our religious beliefs and discuss other topics on a friendly basis.
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  Motown2Chitownposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  You honestly read my post as insulting to you? If I offended you, I apologize. As to agreeing to disagree with you in regard to matters of faith, I'm perfectly willing to do that, and wish you peace. But, you don't really keep your personal relationship with Jesus very personal - that's why people get frustrated.
  
  I try to be diplomatic when I converse with others with whom I may disagree. I generally notice, though, that the harder I work to see from every side and angle, the more disgusted extremists become with me.
  
  And, honey, don't think you're so special. Mark's insulted me on more than occasion, and he's not generally very cuddly. But again, that doesn't mean he doesn't have a right to be heard.
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  Mark Knowlesposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  I can be cuddly.
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  MelissaBarrettposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  *Smiles* I honestly believe that too... and you have ***mostly*** always debated with me in a *semi* respectful manner even with your alter-ego... When I was willing to concede a point when you made one. Honestly... it is a little harder to get you to concede points but I'll live.
  
  The point is I actually learn something about myself when I roll up my sleeves and wade into indepth conversation with you... but (and this is a big but) I always know I have to leave my thin skin behind from the first post.
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  Mmargie1966posted 12 years agoin reply to this
  I never claimed Mark doesn't have a right to be heard. I encouraged him in the beginning of the thread. I don't think he has a right to call people names. That is unprofessional and unacceptable. I suggest people ignore the hateful things he says, that's all.
  
  Your apology is accepted I'm sorry if I came off a little defensive. Like I said, I asked a question, expected some flack, but got attacked and called names because of my beliefs.
  
  I have no problem accepting the beliefs of others and I expect the same in return. Several times on this thread I've said I'm not here to persuade anyone, and I won't be persuaded from my beliefs.
  
  My personal relationship with God is indeed personal. I merely mentioned that I have one. How does that make it public?
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  MelissaBarrettposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  I'm confused... if you ask a question then immediately say that the given answers will not persuade you the why did you ask the question other than for argument sake? If that is the case then why are you surprised when people argue with you?
  
  *Sighs* I'll let Mark finish the last line of this...
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  Mmargie1966posted 12 years agoin reply to this
  ***SIGHSSSSSS****
  
  Dear Lord!
  
  Have you ever asked a question just because you wanted to know the answer Melissa? Why are you confused? I didn't ask for advice. I didn't ask "what should I do?" I didn't ask "should I change faiths?" I didn't ask anything that would influence my core values and beliefs. I asked out of curiosity.
  
  Is that okay with you, or am I banned from starting a thread by asking a question because YOU are confused why I asked it?
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  Mark Knowlesposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  We can all see why you asked it. You are defending your irrational beliefs.
  
  This is why your religion causes so many conflicts.
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  MelissaBarrettposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Wow... that was a pretty catty answer just because I asked a simple question...
  
  Why are you attacking me for asking a question?
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  Mmargie1966posted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Because you attacked me for asking a question.
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  MelissaBarrettposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  What? Where?
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  Mmargie1966posted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Are we on the same post? You sure are confused a lot, but have no problem responding to this...and needing help from another hubber to finish? Hmmmmm not real credible, Mel.
  
  Mmargie1966 wrote:
  
  I am merely asking a question. I have that right. I am not trying to persuade you or anyone, and I will not be persuaded by you or anyone. I only ask for respect for my beliefs, as I respect yours (and his).
  
  I'm confused... if you ask a question then immediately say that the given answers will not persuade you the why did you ask the question other than for argument sake? If that is the case then why are you surprised when people argue with you?
  
  *Sighs* I'll let Mark finish the last line of this...
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  Mmargie1966posted 12 years agoin reply to this
  I love your passive aggressive behavior, Melissa. You attack and then ask so sweetly why I'm upset. You've done that to me twice. Shame on me.
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Ethan Greenposted 12 years ago
As a non-US citizen, can I ask in what ways the Christianity bashing takes place over in your side of the pond? Of course I can see how arguments develop in these forums, like in this post. But I get the impression people feel it is happening in a much wider context. Could you tell me what that is and how it is happening?

Over in the U.K. I don't think there is much on-mass Christianity bashing going on. Sure, lot's of people are 'losing their faith' and lot's of people will openly talk about their dislike or lack or respect for Christianity, but no more so I think than people do for the Muslim faith. It strikes me that here in the U.K the main argument is against Religion per se rather than a specific creed. We have very interesting televised debates about either Christianity, and also about the Muslim faith, where everyone gets to have their say. Often you can catch an interesting debate between moderate and more extreme leaders of faiths from within the same faith. Do you have that over there?

It would be interesting to compare the general feeling the average American or English out-spoken Christian has about the way people treat them. And likewise for how easily someone who keeps their faith to themself feels that they can do whatever they need to do without feeling 'under attack' by the media or whatever other source in each country.

Anyway, back to my main point, which is to ask if you can clarify how the attack on Christianity occurs in the wider sense, not just in the sense where someone says 'here I am, I'm a Christian' and then everyone else jumps on them. That's obvious. But is it open and blatent in the public realm, or is it more secretive, insidious and personal on the whole?

I don't want to divert the thread, just asking for clarity:-)

Cheers
Ethan
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  Mmargie1966posted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Just to clarify, Ethan:
  
  There have been law suits banning the 10 commandments in our courthouses that were put there by our founding fathers.
  
  There has been elimination of prayer in schools (even privately)which has been there since the birth of our nation.
  
  There is discussion of removing the words "In God We Trust" on our currency, which isn't worth much lately, since our economy has tanked (another discussion).
  
  When I was in school, we had Christian clubs and other religious clubs too. However, being Christian has seem to offended people, whereas other religions have not.
  
  The United States was declared independent from England partly on the freedom of religion and the separation of Church and State. Meaning, you can worship who and where you'd like to, and the government has no say in what or who you worship. That is now being turned around somehow and Christians are being chastised for their beliefs. Its only getting worse.
  
  My intention in asking the original question on this thread is why? Why the Christians and no other religion or non-religion.
  
  Boy did this explode! Quite interesting, huh?
  
  Anyway, I hope this answers your question.
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  Mark Knowlesposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Ah - now I see how your "personal relationship with god" is under attack.
  
  You don't have one if the money doesn't say "god" on it? That correct?
  
  No wonder your religion causes so many fights.
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mischeviousmeposted 12 years ago
I don't think the indoctrinated fools of this world, are capable of understanding why so many attack it. It's because it's crazy and stupid and if anyone looked at it from a biased angle, they'd see exactly why. A 600 year old man fit a half a million species on a boat he built with very little help... Yup, makes a whole lot sense.
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Mmargie1966posted 12 years ago
I feel very sorry for Mark Knowles. I pray for him.
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  Mark Knowlesposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Please don't trouble yourself. Just remember how under attack your "personal relationship with god," is because mandatory prayer was removed from schools.
  
  This is why your religion causes so many fights.
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  Mmargie1966posted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Its no trouble, Mark. I wish you well and only pray for love and happiness for you. Its my pleasure. Hate me all you want...I care for you. I just won't accept your insults.
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  Mark Knowlesposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  You don't care for me. If you cared for me - you would be more respectful and answer my questions.
  
  Lying that your religion is a "personal relationship with god," then claiming it to be under attack because mandatory prayer has been removed from schools is plain old dishonesty.
  
  Like jesus sed to do.
  
  SO - show some respect and answer my question - how is your "personal relationship with god," under attack?
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Mmargie1966posted 12 years ago
We are all entitled to our opinions. Being rude and disrespectful was NOT my intention when asking this question.

It is okay if we agree to disagree, just please be respectful of each other. We all share this world together, and LOVE is what our Lord wants...in fact, LOVE is what most of us want.

Can we please have adult discussions without hurtful words?
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Ethan Greenposted 12 years ago
Do you think some of those things are happening because the US is taking more of an Equality and Diversity stance and so taking steps to reduce the visibility of Christianity to make a little room for other faiths to breathe? Or is it purely an attack on Christianity? Or is it just in the hope that people would accept the idea of keeping their faith to themself? Are the people who make the decision about the money, just as an example, Christians themselves? I would have thought it's a good thing to seperate money from religion anyway no?
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  Mmargie1966posted 12 years agoin reply to this
  THANK YOU ETHAN! I love that you are asking legitimate questions, just as I have, and not attacking me for my beliefs!
  
  You may be right about your suspicions. However, I am not aware of any other religion or non-religion banned from prayer at school (on their own time...as it always was). The money issue...well, honestly, I could take it or leave it.
  
  The ten commandments are basic morals that we should all live by. They are a religious symbol, so they are criticized. Step back a moment and read them. They are basically telling us to treat others as we would like to be treated. Most religions and non-religious agree.
  
  All that being said, the Christians are still being attacked for displaying them. It just doesn't make sense to me. Should we display something mean and evil? Why not encourage people of all faiths to be kind to one another?
  
  Just my opinion...and thank you again, for being an adult and initiating a great dialogue!
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  Mark Knowlesposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Let me get this straight - you think Christians are banned from prayer on their own time?
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Mmargie1966posted 12 years ago
For the record...I never claimed my personal relationship with God was being attacked. That is virtually impossible. However, my Christian faith certainly is...just read the posts here on hubpages to start.

My person (me) is being attacked because I asked the question and shared my personal beliefs.
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  Mark Knowlesposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  So - you shared your personal beliefs - why? How is pointing out that you personal beliefs are irrational nonsense an "attack," exactly?
  
  Me? I am all about love. I show it in this way. I just wish you would stop attacking me and answer my questions without this dishonest approach that Jesus taught.
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Mmargie1966posted 12 years ago
Okay people...I've been out for breakfast, came back to check on the thread, and now I'm going to get some sleep.

Peace and Love to all of you who participated in this heated debate and thank you for responding to my question! I learned a lot!
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  Druid Dudeposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  People attack christianity usually because christians are not supposed to defend themselves, and more often, can't do so effectively.
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  Mmargie1966posted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Thank you, Druid Dude. I appreciate a non-offensive, honest answer. You have my utmost respect.
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  Emile Rposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  That's fascinating. Because, if someone told me I couldn't effectively defend my position; I'd be offended. The statement implies Christians aren't bright. You aren't offended; but other innocuous statements are offensive to you. I guess it takes all kinds.
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  Mmargie1966posted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Thanks for judging me, emile. I happen to agree with druid dude, partially, and he didn't say I couldn't defend MY position. However, what I really respected was his honest opinion without a personal attack. If you have read this thread from the beginning, you would see that there are parts of the Christian religion that I do not agree with. I believe most of the teachings. Also know that there are several denominations of Christianity. The basic beliefs are all the same, and I believe.
  
  Besides...contrary to what others are accusing me of, I asked the question to get honest answers. I didn't ask the question for sake of argument. DD is entitled to his opinion just as you are, and Mark. None of you have the right to attack me personally, however.
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  Emile Rposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Could you point out where you were judged? Maybe that's the problem. You are thin skinned and see judgment and/or attack in a simple observation.
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  MelissaBarrettposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  I asked the same question and got called a child and a drunk for it...
  
  I hope you fare better.
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  Emile Rposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Didn't your mother tell you under age drinking might stunt your growth?
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Mmargie1966posted 12 years ago
Well, with all that being said...I'm finished being the whipping boy of the day. LOL...have many things to do, including writing more hubs.

My recommended hub for all to read today: 10 Characteristics of a Psychopath

Peace - and have a wonderful day!
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Michael J Davisposted 12 years ago
Are we talking about atheists attacking Christians or Christians of different faiths attacking each other? How about Muslims attacking Christans?
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Norah Caseyposted 12 years ago
Closing this thread for a high number of valid personal attack reports.
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Why do people insist on attacking Christianity?

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