Should women with XY chromosomes compete in women's boxing?

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   Lone Wolf Primeposted 8 months ago

   As many of you know, there was controversy at this year's Olympics, and I'm not talking about the opening ceremony, which is an entirely different conversation altogether.   No, I'm talking about female boxer, Imane Khelif, who beat up a woman for less than a minute in the ring, which forced her opponent to quit because she felt Imane had an advantage being unusually strong for a female fighter.  Reports from conservative media have claimed Imane to be a biological man transitioning into a woman, who allegedly was banned from female boxing in the US to fight professionally because she has XY chromosomes, yet the Olympic games have allowed Imane to compete.  However, there have been further reports that have come out from liberal media sources claiming that not only is Imane a biological woman who can have babies like any other healthy woman that's capable of having them, but she allegedly is one of the few women in the world that has XY chromosomes which gives her something of an unfair advantage in boxing.  I.E. she's allegedly as strong as a man, so she's able to punch like one. 
   
   Now, I'm not a doctor, so I wasn't aware women could have XY chromosomes that gave them masculine features, while still retaining natural biological female reproductive organs.  That's new information to me, but I will ask this.  Do you think if a woman possesses XY chromosomes that they should be banned from Olympic boxing as well?   I'm curious.  Part of me wants to say yes for women's safety, but at the same time, we also have to keep in mind that Imane isn't undefeated either, and sometimes athletes will have unfair advantages over others in sports.   I mean did anyone shout to ban Scottie Pippen and Paul Pierce for having longer arms than most players, which gave them a bigger wing span to guard people; hence they had an unfair physical advantage.  Was it fair that Shaq was literally bigger than over half the players he was guarded by in his prime in the NBA?  Yes, I'm aware basketball isn't anywhere close to the physicality that boxing requires, but I'm hoping you guys get what i'm trying to say.  Anyways, I'd love to hear what you guys think though?   Again, I apologize if I offended anyone with my ignorance, as I wasn't even aware women could be born with XY chromosomes, as this is something new to me, so I had to ask what you guys think.

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      Kathryn L Hillposted 8 months agoin reply to this

      So, doctors know that women can have XY chromosomes, masculine features AND female reproductive organs, (but no male reproductive organs.) My question is, how do they determine these females have XY chromosomes?
      
      Wouldn't they be considered to be Hermaphrodites?
      
      I would say no, if they are untypical females and it can be proven by doctors and testing, they should not be allowed to compete. They should box other hermaphrodites, (if that's what they are.)

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         Lone Wolf Primeposted 8 months agoin reply to this

         They found out via a DNA test.   As quoted from a quick google search:
         
         "And after Lin won gold and Kehlif won bronze at the event in March 2023, officials announced the boxers had failed medical eligibility tests and stripped them of the medals. IBA president Umar Kremlev said DNA tests “proved they had XY chromosomes and were thus excluded.”

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            Kathryn L Hillposted 8 months agoin reply to this

            "In some cases, variations in sex characteristics are caused by unusual levels of sex hormones, which may be the result of an atypical set of sex chromosomes.
            
            One common cause of variations in sex characteristics traits is the crossing over of the testis-determining factor (SRY) from the Y chromosome to the X chromosome during meiosis.
            
            The SRY is then activated in only certain areas, causing development of testes in some areas by beginning a series of events starting with the upregulation of the transcription factor (SOX9), and in other areas not being active (causing the growth of ovarian tissues).
            
            Thus, testicular and ovarian tissues will both be present in the same individual.[57] Though of all total recorded cases of ovotesticular DSD, in only 8% percent of all cases was SRY present, leaving the rest of cases that could be explained to other or less common causes, with the vast majority simply being currently unexplainable."
            
            https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hermaphrodite
            
            Talk about weird.

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               Lone Wolf Primeposted 8 months agoin reply to this

               Yeah it is weird.  It makes me wonder if there's been cases of men being born with biological features more similar to that of women, while still retaining male reproductive organs honestly.  I'm sure there has to have been some cases if cases like Imane exist where she's a woman in spite having XY chromosomes that give her male features.

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                  Kathryn L Hillposted 8 months agoin reply to this

                  "In some cases, variations in sex characteristics are caused by unusual levels of sex hormones, which may be the result of an atypical set of sex chromosomes.
                  
                  One common cause of variations in sex characteristics traits is the crossing over of the testis-determining factor (SRY) from the Y chromosome to the X chromosome during meiosis."
                  _________________________
                  
                  Yes, mistakes happen. Mis-formations occur for many reasons; some known, some unknown.
                  
                  I've even heard the theory that boys who were given soy-based formula as babies develop feminine characteristics because of the high levels of estrogen found in soy beans.
                  
                  ?

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            wildernessposted 8 months agoin reply to this

            As there is no such thing as an XY chromosome I would take that statement with a grain of salt.  Perhaps it was said in error, perhaps said as a lie, but however it is not possible.

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               Kathryn L Hillposted 8 months agoin reply to this

               Well, this is confusing. Was this a joke thread?
               
               https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/XY_gonadal_dysgenesis
               
               Anyway, sounds gastly.

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                  Lone Wolf Primeposted 8 months agoin reply to this

                  It's not a joke thread, as I'm just going off of what I heard about the situation.  I know a lot of conservative media outlets are saying this puts the women in boxing at the Olympics in danger.  Meanwhile, you have some media pundits like Shannon Sharpe say that Imane is actually a woman, so I became curious about what others might say about the situation.

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                  wildernessposted 8 months agoin reply to this

                  I read the wiki link, but understood very little of it.  It sounds like the chromosomes (plural) act as an XY pair even though they are not.  If that is the case I said it right; there is no XY chromosome (single).  Chromosomes come as pairs, normally one X and the other either X or Y.  There is no XY chromosome that I am aware of.
                  
                  But I could be way off base; I am certainly no biologist.  Or doctor for that matter.

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               Lone Wolf Primeposted 8 months agoin reply to this

               It's entirely possible the media may be lying to cover this up considering there was a lot of backlash over the Olympics even allowing Imane and another Trans fighter from competing, and it's not like the media hasn't lied before to us.  I still stand by what I said. If I had a female family member or friend competing in womens boxing at the Olympics right now, I'd be pulling them out of the competition immediately because I wouldn't want them fighting someone that freakishly strong.

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                  wildernessposted 8 months agoin reply to this

                  "freakishly strong" would apply to any Olympic weight lifter.  Or shot putter.  Or any of 30 or so sports competitors (ever watched a male gymnast on the rings?).  Being unusually strong is not a reason to bar them from competing; that's what competition is all about.

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                     Lone Wolf Primeposted 8 months agoin reply to this

                     You do bring up a good point there.  Let me ask you this.  Do you think Imane should be allowed to compete in women's boxing at the Olympics?

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                        Kathryn L Hillposted 8 months agoin reply to this

                        If she is proven to be a hermaphrodite due to DNA testing, which proves  she has male traits, such as the advantage of extra testosterone, No.
                        Let her find similar atypical females to compete against.

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                           wildernessposted 8 months agoin reply to this

                           All Olympic athletes are atypical.  Remember Michael Phelps?  The swimmer that won so much in the Olympics?  And that is not only quite tall but had freakishly long arms - arms that were a definite help in swimming fast?
                           
                           Think of Simone Biles, who appears to have an extra helping of that "thing" that helps her know were she is and how she is turned at all times.  And when she temporarily lost that extra ability last Olympics she had the "twisties" and had to leave the competition.  They are all atypical, and it isn't just training and hard work.  Heck, just the difference in the type of musculature between a long distance and short distance runner is remarkable, and it goes far beyond that simple difference.  Look at the difference in body type between a swimmer and a runner.  Look at a runner vs the shot putter.  There are huge differences all over the field in these people.

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                              Kathryn L Hillposted 8 months agoin reply to this

                              I meant similar in XY chromosomes. If she has an actual Y chromosome found by DNA testing she needs to find other XY females to box against.
                              I would say.
                              
                              Now, if there is no such thing as XY weird, atypical genetics/chromosomes displayed in females, then forget this whole conversation.
                              
                              PS I was assuming the Y chromosome would give her way more testosterone then typical XX females.

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                                 Kathryn L Hillposted 8 months agoin reply to this

                                 PSS You are skilled at getting past our gut-level assumptions!

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                           Castlepalomaposted 8 months agoin reply to this

                           Could put her in with male transgender and maybe add in surgery and drug olympics.

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                        wildernessposted 8 months agoin reply to this

                        Until such time as "she" has been found with an X chromosome, yes.  I haven't a clue what this "XY chromosome" thing means - it sounds like she has an X chromosome that is acting kind of like a Y chromosome but not enough like it to be called male.  Maybe I just don't understand the terminology, but if she has two X chromosomes then she is female and should be able to compete, and that sounds like the case to me.
                        
                        But I keep hearing that she is very, very strong.  Are you sure?  There is far more that goes into how hard one can hit than mere strength of the arm.  Speed of that arm movement.  Movement/placement of the feet.  Movement of the shoulders.  It is a whole body effort; perhaps she is simply better than most (coupled with unusual strength) that is allowing her to hit extra hard?  It cannot be that much or she would win every bout, and that's another problem with banning her.
                        
                        So yes, allow her to compete until she is tested and found to have both X and Y chromosomes, without some "twisting" saying her chromosomes act like one is a Y even if it isn't.

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                           Lone Wolf Primeposted 8 months agoin reply to this

                           Well there's always going to be other factors in determing a boxing match.  There's so much more strategy that goes into it than just punching the other person hard enough to knock them down, while avoiding hits.  No, a lot of it is a lot more complicated than that, as some fighters have certain tendencies and weaknesses.  And you as a boxer, you have study film on them to determine when and how to exploit said weaknesses.  For example if one person tends to have brief pauses when throwing a left jab, then you have to learn to caplitalize on that, and get in a quick punch before they can react. Or if a fighter is known to use their speed in the ring, then you have to figure out ways to corner them, so their speed won't be much of an issue. 
                           
                           It's just a fascinating issue for me considering I was not aware women could be born with chromosomes that give them almost the equivalent strength and bone density of men.  It's interesting if we're going to assume everything that's been reported about it is true.  I can see what your'e saying, but I still don't know if I'd want a female loved one of mine fighting a woman with that kind of advantage in the ring.   But then again, it would ultimately be their choice at the end of the day.  That one female boxer that gave up after 45 seconds fighting against Imane didn't have to do that, as nobody was forcing her to at the end of the day.  I guess it just depends on how you want to look at it.

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                              wildernessposted 8 months agoin reply to this

                              It was my understanding that she was in trouble because her opponent complained she hit too hard - that's why I addressed the hitting angle.
                              
                              There is such a huge variation in the human species!  From 7' basketball players to the dwarf under 5'.  From the 350 pound man to one at 125 pounds.  From near midnight black to albino.  The range is tremendous - I would guess far more than any other animal.  In sports, we try to mitigate those differences somewhat - there is very little male vs female in sports.  Boxing, wrestling and others have weight classes to participate in.  Whatever we do, though, it always comes down to one person (or team) against another.

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                     Kathryn L Hillposted 8 months agoin reply to this

                     If they are biological men competing against women, it is not fair due to the inequality of the matter.
                     
                     Women don't have the advantage of testosterone.

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                        wildernessposted 8 months agoin reply to this

                        All women have testosterone.  The only difference is how much - can you set a reasonable limit on that "how much" that the world is willing to follow and use to determine sex?

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         Lone Wolf Primeposted 8 months agoin reply to this

         Here's the thing. I  can get where you're coming from on this one, as I'm a bit confused by all of this myself.  I'm just wondering how something like this is possible because this goes against everything I've ever learned from any biology class I've ever taken in my life.  From my own understanding because she has female reproductive organs, and no males ones, and she was allegedly born that way, then it technically classifies her as a female to compete in the Olympics as a woman boxer?  Yet the professional boxing circuit in the US, she couldn't box allegedly because of the XY chromosomes?   Again, I'm a bit confused by this myself.   Personally, if my sister, mother, cousin, daughter, niece or whatever competing this year in women's boxing at the Olympics, I'd pull them out of the game myself.  Nothing against Imane, but I wouldn't want anyone I know that's a woman fighting her in the ring because of how ridiculously strong Imane is compared to most women.

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            Kathryn L Hillposted 8 months agoin reply to this

            Hermaphrodite:
            "An organism having both male and female sex organs OR other sexual characteristics, either abnormally, in the case of some organisms", (Humans, for instance,) "or as the natural condition."
            
            "True hermaphroditism is a rare form of intersex ANOMALY where both male and female gonads are present. True hermaphrodites diagnosed in the past have been preferentially reared as males."
            
            Internet definitions.

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               Lone Wolf Primeposted 8 months agoin reply to this

               well if she is a hermaphrodite, then the next question is would there be enough hermaphrodites to warrant an entire series of sporting events just for them to compete at the Olympics?

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                  Kathryn L Hillposted 8 months agoin reply to this

                  Exactly. It would certainly be interesting to establish a category for them and see how much interest there is.

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      Castlepalomaposted 8 months agoin reply to this

      There is still a great lack of evidence on both side of the argument if the boxer is male of female.  For an intersex person still has a great advantage over a biological female. And probably lose their mental and find another category venue for them to participate in sports.

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         Lone Wolf Primeposted 8 months agoin reply to this

         I'm more curious as to why the IOC suspended the IBA though, and what reforms were they talking about.  It's interesting, as I think I'll research it later when I have time.

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            Kathryn L Hillposted 8 months agoin reply to this

            https://defector.com/it-doesnt-matter-i … ane-khelif
            
            If this person claims it was born female, but seems masculine,
            all one has to do is check the birth certificate.
            
            Then I found this link:
            
            https://novonordiskfonden.dk/en/news/mo … cally-men/
            
            An anomaly is an anomaly and needs to be accepted as so.
            I say disqualification.

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   Kathryn L Hillposted 8 months ago

   "She couldn't box in professional boxing circuit in the US because of the XY chromosomes:
   
   "... after Lin won gold and Kehlif won bronze at the event in March 2023, officials announced the boxers had failed medical eligibility tests and stripped them of the medals. IBA president Umar Kremlev said DNA tests “proved they had XY chromosomes and were thus excluded.”
   
   
   Then why the Olympics?

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   Kathryn L Hillposted 8 months ago

   In my opinion, its a matter of justice. We should protect the typical, (naturally weaker,) female boxers from anyone with the overpowering strength of a male.
   
   Thanks for important and interesting questions.

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      Lone Wolf Primeposted 8 months agoin reply to this

      No, thank you for taking the time to address my questions. Like I said before, this is all news to me, as I was truly convinced Imane was a trans woman, but apparently Imane is a hermaphrodite it seems.

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   Kathryn L Hillposted 8 months ago

   PSSS She needs to reveal her genitals / lack of male ones. If she has male ones, get him out of the female category of boxing.

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      Lone Wolf Primeposted 8 months agoin reply to this

      That probably won't solve anything. Keep in mind with modern technology, we have the ability now to convert male genitalia with female ones and vice versa.  The only thing is if your a Trans woman, then you can't get pregnant.   I know this because I used to know a Trans woman that told me this stuff once during casual conversation.   Although she did tell me that scientists are working on a way to create artificial wombs for Trans women to get pregnant, but as far as I know, it's never been tested, so I'm assuming they're nowhere close to releasing something like that.  My point is if the Olympic committee did do what you're suggesting, the only issue is what if the person is a Trans woman but they already had the operation to get artificial female privates.  Then what?   Demand birth certificates?   Actually i think I just answered my own question.

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         Kathryn L Hillposted 8 months agoin reply to this

         ~ guess so!

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   Lone Wolf Primeposted 8 months ago

   Hmm interesting.  After further research, it seemed to two alleged female boxers with xy chromosomes failed a gender test from the IBA, which is why they can't fight professionally in the USA for women's boxing but the IOC is allowing them to fight in women's boxing for the Olympics?   And the ioc apparently has suspended the iba of its status in the Olympics because it failed to make reforms that I'm still trying to find out what they are exactly. I may need to look this up as I could make an interesting hub later about it.

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   SmartAndFunposted 8 months ago

   There is a chromosomal birth condition (a disorder of sex development) called 46,XY 5-ARD. A number of biologists and sports scientists suspect the two boxers have this condition, but since the boxers refuse to release their test results, it is speculation. 46,XY 5-ARD is a condition that affects only males. Males with this condition do not develop normally in the womb. Their testes develop internally rather than externally. The penis does not develop properly and when the baby boy is born, the doctor may declare the baby boy to be a girl because in boys with this condition, rather than a visible penis, there is often a pouch that superficially appears to be a vagina. If the two boxers have this condition, they should be disqualified from female sports, because while they may have been assumed to be girls as children and therefore raised as girls, they are male and undergo male puberty, which bestows upon them male physical advantage.
   
   The IOC have made the decision to allow 46,XY 5_ARD males to unfairly compete against women in boxing (for other sports, each individual sport's governing body determines who is excluded from the female category). That the IOC did this is another complicating factor in understanding this story, but the IOC "should" have put procedures in place to properly screen out male boxers from female competition. But they irresponsibly did not because their goal is to make the female category "inclusive" of special males, rather than ensure fairness and safety for female athletes. The IBA defines a female as having XX chromosomes and does require sex screening, but the IBA was stripped by the IOC of their authority to govern Olympic boxing. The IOC took over governing boxing for Paris 2024, but failed to put any screening methods in place other than looking at the athletes passports. These two boxers have passports that say they are female, but a passport is not a proper screening tool.
   
   In my humble opinion, these boxers need to be re-tested and have the results revealed to boxing and Olympics officials (although now it is too late for that for Paris and the women who were possibly cheated out of their medals may or may not have any recourse. I don't know about that part of it). I understand privacy concerns prevent the results from being released to the public, but if I were one of the boxers and had nothing to hide, I would release the results of my test to the public to clear my name and reputation. These two boxers have been twice tested by two different independent labs that are approved by the international Court of Arbitration for Sport. If the boxers would release their tests, all the speculation and rumors about them, and the criticism of them, would end immediately. The fact that they refuse to suggests to me they have something to hide.
   
   Here's a short podcast in which one of the world's top sports scientists gives his opinion and  in some instances speaks directly to IOC President Thomas Bach (as if Bach is listening but that is doubtful), if anyone has 16 minutes to listen to it.
   https://open.spotify.com/episode/0nhX9D2QDmpvUeoPYPAoWS
   
   Here's a diagram of male genitalia. The image on the left shows typical male development and the right shows 46,XY 5-ARD male development.
   

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      Lone Wolf Primeposted 8 months agoin reply to this

      Damn, this is going deeper than I thought.  At this rate, you might as well make all sports coed by this point.

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         Castlepalomaposted 8 months agoin reply to this

         Not a chance for women to compete with men fairly  in sport. Don't men already dominate too much in  this world?
         
         I had dated an east German mulity olympic metalist. Her body was so hard, it felt gay to me.

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         SmartAndFunposted 8 months agoin reply to this

         That's not my point but rather quite the opposite, although the IOC seems to agree that the two categories should be male sports and coed sports instead of male sports and female sports. What I'm saying is that if the two boxers have 46,XY 5-ARD as is suspected, they are male and have no business competing against females. The IOC has the responsibility to ensure fairness and safety for female athletes competing in the Games but have deliberately neglected their responsibility, and in a brutal combat sport of all things.
         
         There has been talk in this thread of "hermaphrodites" but this is not the correct term. There are a number of conditions called disorders (or differences) of sexual development which means these people develop in an atypical way, and 46,XY 5-ARD is one of these disorders. But people with 46,XY 5-ARD are not both male and female, they are not neither male nor female, they are male.

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            Castlepalomaposted 8 months agoin reply to this

            Fair enough.

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            Kathryn L Hillposted 8 months agoin reply to this

            "... they are (not) neither male nor female, they are male."
            
            You mean, they are not female. They are male.

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               SmartAndFunposted 8 months agoin reply to this

               Yes. People with 46,XY 5-ARD are male. Thank you and sorry for the confusion.
               
               What I was trying to say is that while some people think people with DSDs (sometimes called intersex or hermaphrodites, which as I understand are no longer considered proper terms) are somehow at once both male and female, or neither male nor female, as if they are a third sex or an in-between sex. But depending upon which DSD a person has, the person is either male or female. They have a chromosomal development disorder, but these disorders affect either males or females, making the person either male or female depending upon which disorder they have.

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                  Kathryn L Hillposted 8 months agoin reply to this

                  Thank you, thank you for this scientifically (finally!) accurate clarification!

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   Kathryn L Hillposted 8 months ago

   Good Grief! x 10!

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