Training Wheels for America: How To Stop Celebrating Columbus Day
Perhaps it is unfair to expect Americans to stop celebrating Columbus Day cold turkey. Let's face it, although there are exceptions to the rule, no one would expect a 4 year old child to start riding a bicycle without training wheels. I believe that a gradual "weaning away" process would be more effective. I propose that we start by replacing Columbus Day with "Adolf Hitler Day", followed by "Andrew Jackson Day" followed by "George Zimmerman Day", with about 5 years in-between. My reasoning for this is sound. Let's do the math:
• Columbus is directly responsible for the murder and enslavement of thousands of human beings. He is indirectly responsible for nearly 500 years of oppression and the genocide of over 100 million people.
• Adolf Hitler's reign of terror only lasted a few years, and he is only responsible for the deaths of 6 million Jews, and about 50 million combatants and non-combatants.
• Andrew Jackson's reign of terror lasted only a few years and he is only responsible for the murder of thousands of people, and indirectly responsible for the murder, and dispossession, of hundreds of thousands of human beings.
• George Zimmerman is only responsible for the murder of one human being, and reinforcing the idea that it's OK to kill black people.
Gradually changing the focus of Columbus Day from a greater to a lesser evil, is a far more practical solution than expecting blood thirsty Americans who still support the imperialist policies of the United States, and an ever expanding police state, to simply stop the celebration of evil cold turkey!To replace Colombus day by Hitler's day wouldn't be appropriate since we were in collusion with his ideals. What about the Anglo-Saxons' day? At least it conglobates who we were and who we are (colonialists) before and after our arrival on the Indians' land.
Trevor Noah in his comedy show intelligently questioned why we called the "Native Indians" Native Indians shouldn't they be called Americans? And us whatever we are. Immigrants?Anglo -Saxons Day would certainly be a better choice in name, but what would it be celebrating? If it were simply celebrating the lives and legacies of great Euro-Americans like Emma Goldman, Henry David Thoreau, or Nikola Tesla, I would be all for it. But if it were just another excuse to celebrate invasion and genocide, then the name change would not make much of a difference.
Furthermore, apart from Indigenous issues, I don't see how the invasion of this continent has greatly benefited Euro-Americans. When we consider a prison system designed for profit, high crime rates,poverty,ghettos,homelessness, wage slavery, unfair taxation, an expanding police state, government surveillance, The Patriot Act , environmental pollution, GMO's, two world wars, numerous military actions, and sexual violence against women, etc.: What does the Euro-American really have to shout about. Oh say can they see? No, I don't think they can.
As far as Trevor Noah is concerned, his joke could be taken in one of two ways: If his suggestion that Indigenous people are the "real" Americans, as opposed to European immigrants, is part of the overall joke, then he is very clever indeed. However, if this suggestion is to be taken literally, and not tongue in cheek, then we can see he is not so clever after all.
Although I am aware that many well intentioned individuals use this logic as a way of showing respect, ironically , it betrays an arrogance and general ignorance of history that permeates the mainstream. The name and the concept of "America" did not exist prior to the European invasion. Consequently, it is insulting for anyone to suggest that any Indigenous person prior to the Invasion was an American. It is equally offensive for anyone to assume that all Indigenous peoples since the invasion are, by default, also Americans.
We are who we were, and are; before and after the invasion. The Lakota, The Mapuche, The Haudenosaunee, and the Mexica, to name a few. We were not in such a primitive state when the European arrived that we needed them to name us, to name our continent, the mountains and the rivers, and then help us to climb their stairway to heaven; a stairway that apparently has taken a long detour through hell.I almost named one of my dogs Tecumseh.
Although such comments are meant to be offensive, they only shame those who claim them.
? Why would that be offensive? I liked the name! I thought it would be a great name for a dog… I love dogs... don't you?
I was just trying to be simple in the midst of such complexity.
PS You are being offensive with what you have to say to all of us. We are modern day American citizens. We had nothing to do with anything you mention. Why do you dish it out like this to us? You say we need training pants… wheels.. whatever. That is not offensive? Columbus brought the Europeans to the continent of America. Can't we celebrate a brave explorer who played a role in the fact that we are here today?
I believe the souls from the time of Atlantis were waiting in the wings (the astral realm) to bring forth the inventions from those days: electricity, flying machines, and everything the industrial revolution and the jet age brought forth. Would you really rather not have modern day inventions/conveniences? Would you really rather be scraping through nature, not reading books, not learning amazing things from amazing people through them? Would you really rather not have TV, theaters, arts, culture?
Hello, we freaking went to the moon! We get in planes and fly wherever we want! We have the internet! Maybe you would rather be in the dark ages with no technology. Thats easily arranged. Live off the grid. Go for it.
And do we really have to view that picture of Hitler?
The difference between you and me is that you are purposefully offensive. I wasn't even trying to be offensive.Thank you Kathryn, hate speech is against HubPages TOS. ENOUGH IS ENOUGH!
Hear Ye! Hear Ye!
Do you also consider Martin Luther King and Malcolm X speaking out against segregation and racial discrimination to be hate speech also. The historical record proves that Columbus was a rapist, murderer, and thief. So you are suggesting that because I have pointed out the fact that millions of Americans are celebrating the life of a criminal, I am the one who is hateful? LOL! That's actually funny. If we are using such logic, then a woman who is raped has no business identifying her attacker, or publicly questioning those who glorify and support her attacker.
According to you, to decry any evil is to engage in the act of "hate speech". But I am glad you posted your comment, because it illustrates how well the general populace has been indoctrinated and manipulated by the ruling elite. Those of us who speak out against evil and injustice are labeled as provocateurs, race baiters, and such. Many will try to censor our thoughts and ideas, because they have been taught to do so by their masters. But we are living in a perverted society, where evil is rewarded, and goodness is denied and thrown underfoot.
Jesus spoke out against the love of money, materialism, and the status quo. Of course I am sure many feel that he got what he deserved since he was the master of "hate speech", as you have defined it. According to scripture, he spent his entire lifetime speaking out against evil; even to the point of violently throwing the money changers out of the temple. I prefer to follow Jesus, Malcolm X, and Martin Luther King. Who do you follow? Columbus?There is a bigger picture. It has to do with the evolution of the human spirit. Sorry about the dark consciousness of our predecessors. Columbus had a dark side for sure.
But, why dredge it up?
Why pinpoint it? Forget about it! The national holiday was established for the sake of celebrating our existence on this continent. We are here now. Let it be! We must move forward with positivity. Let the awful past stay buried. There are bigger concerns, I believe.Yes, let's just bury anything nasty from our history and ignore it like it didn't happen. Good idea.
What you have posted here makes no sense whatsoever. You say: "Why dredge it up". Yet, it is mainstream America that dredges it up once a year.If they did not, then I would not have said a word. Then you say: "Forget about it". LOL! Are you serious? Once again I must ask: How can I forget about it when I am reminded of it every year by mainstream America?
If the national holiday was created to celebrate your existence on this continent, as you have stated, then why is it necessary to do so by honoring a criminal? I am sure that Cambodians can effectively celebrate their heritage and culture without using Pol Pot as their national symbol of pride. In fact Columbus and Pol Pot had a lot in common, yet, you dismiss the atrocities he committed by stating, " Columbus had a dark side for sure".
Columbus forced the men of villages under his control to send their wives, sisters, and daughters to satisfy the depraved sexual lusts of his men. Many of these women were gang raped and sodomized in the process. Many of them were young girls under the age of 12. If anyone refused, they were subject to torture, their hands would be cut off, or they would be burned alive.This is just one of the many evils perpetrated by this monster. Columbus was far darker than the modern day serial killers that are held up as the bogeymen. Columbus even had the blessing of the Catholic Church! But you have defended evil in a public forum, and then challenged me for troubling the good Christian people with dark memories of the past, as they are happily on their way to oblivion. If racist Americans want us to forget about the past, then I suggest to racist Americans that they also forget about the past. Until then, we will keep reminding them that we know who they are, and what they are not. Osiyo!Well, Mr. Christopher Columbus just keeps getting darker by the minute! Why don't you provide us some links/sources for this info you are revealing to us for the first time in any of our lives!
Excerpt from Bartolome de las Casas: A SHORT ACCOUNT OF THE DESTRUCTION OF THE INDIES
THE ISLANDS OF PUERTO RICO AND JAMAICA
In 1509, the Spanish, with the same purpose in mind as they had when they landed on Hispaniola, found their way to the two verdant islands of Puerto Rico and Jamaica, both of them lands flowing with milk and honey.34 Here they perpetrated the same outrages and committed the same crimes as before, devising yet further refinements of cruelty, murdering the native people, burning and roasting them alive, throwing them to wild dogs35 and then oppressing, tormenting and plaguing them with toil down the mines and elsewhere, and so once again killing off these poor innocents to such effect that where the native population of the two islands was certainly over six hundred thousand (and I personally reckon it at more than a million) fewer than two hundred survive on each of the two islands, all the others having perished without ever learning the truths of the Christian religion and without the benefit of the Sacraments...
Here is the link: http://www.columbia.edu/~daviss/work/fi … /casshort/
Atrocities of Columbus:
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/eric-kasu … 42708.html
These are just a few of the many sites on the internet where you can learn about who Columbus really was, and the true foundation upon which the United States was formed.It appears you have painted yourself in a corner. You have asked for proof of my assertions, and I have provided it. Furthermore, these proofs I have provided are part of the historical record , and have been agreed upon by many scholars on both sides of the fence. Yet, you say the sources are not reliable , when I know full well you could not have possibly taken the time to read all of the material, if any. So now I will pose the same question. Show me your sources that indicate Columbus was an honorable man; a man who did not rape, and pillage, and enslave human beings. Please, show me the proof that you are right and I am wrong.
http://www.americanjourneys.org/pdf/AJ-062.pdf
http://www.historyisaweapon.com/defcon1 … ombus.html
NOTHING like what you have said is reported in any of the sources I have looked into and provided.
Why, oh why, would CHRISTOPHER COLUMBUS admit...
A D M I T
in (probably carefully scrutinized) journals
to ANYTHING as horrendous as some internet authors have obviously falsely reported.
He had a reputation to uphold. He was a Christian man for heaven's sakes!!!!
repeating:
"The only version of the diary of the first voyage that we have is the one transcribed by Bartolome de Las Casas in the 1530s.
'Barring the unlikely discovery of the long-lost original Diario or of the single complete copy ordered for Columbus by Queen Isabella, Las Casas's partly summarized, partly quoted version is as close to the original as it is possible to come.' note historians Oliver Dunn and James E. Kelley, Jr.
The Las Casas manuscript also disappeared,
but a single copy
was discovered around 1790."
For the sake of historic truth and accuracy, that's the only source to read, research and quote from.
As far as I can tell, it is perfectly fine to continue commemorating Columbus Day.What you have offered is the diary of Christopher Columbus, which I suspect that you spent all of ten minutes searching for on the internet. And I highly doubt that you read any of the diary at all. If you had, you would have noticed, in his own words, the evil shape of things to come. Nor do I suspect that you have read anything written by Casas. Are Americans so accustomed to eating fast food that they believe it is possible to learn history the same way? I wonder.
I do not care what you choose to believe. Hold on to the dream that has been implanted in your consciousness by the ruthless and the powerful who have enslaved all of mankind. The protests against Columbus Day will continue whether you like it or not. Every Columbus Day we will remind you of his evil legacy. Our ancestors deserve no less.I scoured and scoured his diary which was transcribed by Bartolome de Las Casas in the 1530's to find what you are talking about. Nothing.
Think about it... he would not admit or discuss what you accuse him of doing with the king and queen. For example, he wrote, "And I bestirred myself this morning to see all of this, so that I could give an account of everything to Your Highnesses,"
If he did those things, there is NO actual PROOF.
I am convinced you are reading authors who are writing total fiction on the internet. And they did so in the 90's using unreliable sources, from what I saw.
And yes, I scour fast. (Why not... its all there for the fast scouring.)You never read " A Short Account of the Destruction of the Indies" by Casas. This book was not written in the 1990's! It was written in the 16th century. What did you think Columbus would willingly admit to in is own journal? Do you think Bill Clinton will ever commit to paper for posterity how much he enjoyed Monica and a box of fine cigars?
Review I found:
http://www.amazon.com/A-Short-Account-D … 1451515170
"A Short Account of the Destruction of the Indies," published in 1552 by the Spanish Dominican priest Bartolomé de las Casas, lays bare the Spanish cruelties in America. Though generally condemned as slander in Spain, "A Short Account of the Destruction of the Indies" rapidly became popular in the rest of Europe, where it served to fuel anti-Spanish hate. Spain's enemies used it to depict Spaniards as evil tyrants and to rationalize carving out their own empires in the Americas. New editions of "A Short Account of the Destruction of the Indies" appeared repeatedly, even as late as 1898, during the Spanish-American War. While much of what Bartolomé de las Casas said is undoubtedly true, not all historians take "A Short Account of the Destruction of the Indies" as the gospel truth."
However, I will take a little time and look into this work.
Thank You.
I am not purposely offensive. I am purposely defensive. Every year a murderer and a disgrace to all people, of all races, is honored as a hero. You consider a rapist, a murderer, and a thief to be a brave explorer? Adolf Hitler caused the deaths of far less people than Christopher Columbus and all who came after. Yet you have a problem looking at Hitler. On the other hand, you expect educated people of conscience to ignore the celebration of evil.
Your attempt to credit Columbus with all of the technological advances of the last 500+ years is at best absurd. It is rather arrogant of anyone to assume that without the European invasion of this continent, the world would have never had the modern conveniences that exist today. Have you ever heard of Michelangelo, Copernicus, or Galileo? They didn't live in America. Their genius, and important scientific and artistic contributions to humankind were not dependent upon 500 years of slavery, capitalism, and the theft of an entire continent. It is ludicrous to suggest that the progress they initiated would have come to a standstill without the European invasion of this continent. Furthermore, science and technology were already being developed here, as can be clearly seen with the Mayan and the Aztec. When we also look at the achievements of the Oriental and Middle Eastern cultures, we can understand that the world would not have fallen down, even if Atlas had shrugged.
Your comments suggest that you believe it is simply not possible to have progress without raping, stealing, and committing an act of genocide. And so your words are a true revelation.The fact that you appear to be happy with a world that is constantly at war, and a polluted environment that is the direct result of capitalist oppression, imperialism, and the so-called progress you are so proud of, is also revealing. I wonder, do you think the crimes of John Wayne Gacy or Ted Bundy would have been acceptable if they had lead to an abundance of wealth, and a higher standard of living for millions of Americans? Especially after the passing of several hundred years? The fact that America celebrates a brute who makes both of these monsters look like virgin choir boys tells me that a majority of Americans would answer "Yes"!
Finally, you say,"We are modern day American citizens. We had nothing to do with anything you mention. Why do you dish it out like this to us?"
Of course you have something to do with it. It is you, the modern day Americans, who are still celebrating a rapist, a murderer, and a thief. And what I say is not a matter of opinion, or even open for debate. It is an historical fact. Read and learn.
Had my jus sanguinis country be conquered and massacred the way your ancestors were, I would have nourished the same anger.
Indeed, Anglo-Saxon Day would be to celebrate the American lie and hypocrisy, isn't it what we are all about?
Trevor's tone is very sarcastic, I doubt that at any given moment of the show did he ever flattered America. You don't need to be of a Native Indian descent to know that Amerigo Vespucci originated America. It is history.
It is interesting that you referred to them as Euro-Americans as it should be since our minorities are treated equally.
You speak as if the thinking minority ever cared about the dumb majority or about racial minorities? Just check what the European elite did to their colonies, Congo, among others, still carries stigmata from its colonial past.
Since when the European legacy has ever been honorable? Isn't the majority of us from a European descent? From their wars of religion to their infringement on individual liberties it has always been a veiled dictatorship. They had guns, germs and steel and it was enough to conquer however the good news is that the Caucasian population is decreasing worldwide, Southern American, Asian and hopefully soon African countries will gather as a counterweight to the European hegemony. I don't know if it will ever impact your ethnic heritage positively but maybe improved societies will come out from their melting pot.
Anyone who reads history books gets an image that has been "worked" for several generations. America has a unique view of history that exonerates the perpetrators of inhumane and often illegal acts in favor of the outcomes. This country continues to do these things from assassinations of foreign leaders to invasions of sovereign countries. Much of it to gain some political advantage or financial gain. One has to look at the turmoil that created our own country to turn on itself with the the Civil War. Looking back on it we can't believe it but what is hard to believe is how our society could accept that one could "own" another as if that person was their property. They even tried to make their case as biblically ordained. It is sad that we continue to have selective reasoning when history is taught and the ramifications as it teaches our youth a path to ignorance. Maybe it isn't such a big lie as we also teach them the Tooth Fairy and Santa Clause as a reward for their belief in them.
I agree. It is also amazing how many Americans will defend a system of lies, even to the point of anger, and violence; a system that chews them up, spits them out, and then moves on to the next generation. Dogs kept chained to a post have also been known to defend the territory of the man who occasionally throws them a bone.
And in the same breath the same Rhamson will tell you that it is normal that we bomb Iraqis, Afghans, Pakistanis...
To the victor goes the spoils. I come from an era that started with "Lone Ranger" and Tarzan. I would not say that America is unique, it is a tendency for the successful to exaggerate its achievements and mitigate any culpability for theft and mayhem. America and its culture just has a bigger megaphone and reach for disseminating its perspective on things.
The slavers have to be heinous to justify a theft of another's entire life for economic reasons. But slavery has and is being practiced today. So what have we learned? People are just as brazen today, just using a different tack.
The trouble people go to absolve themselves. I once got into a discussion with a fellow about slavery reparations, which I do not support, but he was quite indignant about it and how it was the' pulling of the race card'. He said that he did not take the land from the Natives that were here first but felt he was being blamed for something that happened well before his existence. But I asked him, are you not in possession of stolen property? This property you currently use to your advantage, even if you did not take it directly. If you really want to make amends, give it back!
I know that these reparation solutions are not practical, but if people would recognize certain realities, we would not be so quick to deny any connection or responsibility. The slavery issue is similar in concept while the details are harder to subject to this example.The reparation issue is interesting , but I propose a solution that would be offensive to many on both sides of the fence. That solution would involve the abolition of the real estate industry. But this would differ from a Communist or Socialist state as we have come to understand it. The state itself would own nothing. Nor would any elite class be able to control a disproportionate amount of land and resources.
Just as each individual citizen is now assigned a social security number at birth, so too each citizen would be guaranteed a certain amount of real estate, dependent upon their needs and their function in society. For instance, since I am a musician/ artist, I would not require a large tract of land. I could live comfortably on an acre of land, or even less. A farmer on the other hand who sought to provide produce to the community would require more. Of course , each citizen would be responsible for the maintenance of their own property, building or repairing a home, etc..
In such a society, there would be no homelessness or vagrancy, nor would the state have the authority to levy taxes on such property, and then evict citizens for non-payment. Here I have described an aspect of a truly free society. No longer would the citizen be encumbered with a 20-30 mortgage that retards personal growth by draining energy and resources. As a result, society as a whole would experience the greatest renaissance in recorded history.
This could be achieved without abolishing the current capitalist system, although such a change would ultimately lead to it's demise. Reparations may be a good idea for a short term fix, as a way of leveling the playing field for minorities, but it does not address the issues of homelessness, and the poverty, and warehousing of people in the inner cities; issues that would continue to exist long after the money was spent. I guess I'm stuck on the "40 acres and a mule" theory; only with an anarchistic twist.
I digitally altered and repaired this photo of a Civil War veteran.
The wallpaper I chose is authentic 19th century. See the original below.
.
wB, Capitalism and the concept of private property are inseparable. Who decides who is entitled to what and how much? What you speak of could exist in what has to be considered a command economy, a communist ideal that has never really worked in practicality. How would resources be distributed in a larger economy? Those that would make the decision would have to be linked with the state. These are the ideas of a commune, it rarely works, because so many would want more, or contribute relatively less. Reparations have no legs politically. How long did Nisei ha e to wait to get reparations for their internment during WWII? Your system would shake the current one to its foundations and Capitalism as an economic system could never accommodate it.
Nice work, I have an interest in early photography, included much that is old and dated. The restoration appears to be that of a 'buffalo soldier".Thanks, I can't remember if his name was given or not. This photo is from the Library of Congress, and he was one of around 200,000 African, or mixed race soldiers that fought for the Union Army. Although the term "Buffalo Soldier" is today widely used in a generic sense, it originated after the Civil War around the year 1866 in Kansas. Africans were given this name by the Indigenous tribes they fought against as members of the 10th U.S. Calvary . It is ironic that without the benefit of hindsight, they were fighting for the wrong side, especially considering the rise of Jim Crow 11 years later.
Give it back. I agree. I would prefer to live under Indians' legislations versus a European heritage dominance.
Belief is more powerful than fact. I wonder how much the tribal run casinos make.
This is getting downright entertaining. You start out by insinuating that Maxoxam41 is a dreamer, but then allude to a popular fiction: a belief that genocide, 500 years of injustice, and the desecration of the image of God, is mitigated by the fact that a few nations now have casinos. This type of logic looks good beside the velvet Elvis picture above the TV during an episode of Duck Dynasty.
Capitalism is hardly the curse Maxa would believe. Some of the beneficiaries of capitalism have been the casino operators. Fewer people struggle merely to produce sufficient calories for survival. This is a direct consequence of capitalism. To imagine otherwise is to live in fantasy.
Capitalism cannot function without poverty. Poverty is the foundation upon which the pyramid rests. The fact that I have never gone hungry does not justify a system that perpetuates violence and poverty here, and throughout the world, in order to exist. The Earth provides us with all that we need to not only survive, but to flourish. However the Capitalist stands between man and the Earth, charging a price of admission. Why? So that a select few can manipulate the masses, and thus, be elevated to the status of rich and powerful. Many do not see the sickness because they are sorely afflicted. And so, they have become willing pawns, and apologists for evil.
---what the heck is a better option?
"The Earth provides us with all that we need to not only survive, but to flourish."
The barter system?Says the computer and electricity user. When you abandon the all benefits of capitalism for a fantasy of earth spirit delivered abundance that eclipses the productivity of a price regulated market system , than I will abandon that system also. Let me know when you do that, not sure how you will be able to do that, but let me know.
You speak of the benefits of Capitalism as if electricity, and the computer, and any number of modern technologies could have never existed without plunder and oppression. The Capitalist doesn't have a monopoly on science and technology. In fact, all of the things that you refer to as modern technology already existed millions of years ago. Arrogant men, ignorant of time, and the rise and fall of civilizations, are quick to lay claim to modern inventions and discoveries that ancient man, future man, and other entities have been accustomed to for millennia.
Furthermore, it is not the technology of this age alone that is the problem. Moreso, it is the misuse, and abuse of technology that is the bigger issue. For instance, the state of Florida recently made it illegal for a citizen to go completely off the grid. This is only one example of the tyranny of the Capitalist state. Now, the citizen is forced against their will to support large corporations and power companies, even when they no longer need their services. We can clearly see in Florida that technology is being abused by the state as a means of control, and continued subjugation. It appears that those who blindly support such an evil system are the ones who believe in fairies and unicorns.After such an extraordinary claim, what more is there to say, ever.
BTW It seems to me it is not an abuse of technology. It is an abuse of power.
"For instance, the state of Florida recently made it illegal for a citizen to go completely off the grid."
However, the govt. can't be making more than crumbs by forcing that one person off the grid in your state!
(Why else would they make it illegal?) Just Kidding. How many people are attempting this ultimate feat of self-suffiency and independence there?
PS technology/electricity use being cyclical throughout history is an interesting idea. I really wonder how those stone temples and statues in India were carved out. I don't believe it was done with hammer and chisel.It is an abuse of both technology and power. Dependence on technology is being used as a means of control. A majority of people in Florida are not fighting this immoral law because they are like the majority in America: They are a herd of goats that go this way or that; whichever way they are told, and they always take the path of least resistance. They would rather celebrate Columbus Day than fight for their right to choose whether they stay on, or go off the grid. This helps to illustrate the real purpose of such celebrations: to distract the public from the real important issues, and to maintain an illusion of freedom and "togetherness".
I'll get on board when Columbus Day becomes bigger than Halloween. Actually, in our school district we have already abolished Columbus Day! Is that good news or what???
Of course, the schools do not celebrate Christmas or Easter either. I'll see what the trend is for Halloween. I wonder if Halloween will ever be bigger than Christmas… it may already be. I guess thats okay, it celebrates all saints who have died.
Hi again, Wrenchbiscuit. It is truly a pleasure to exchange views with you.
Here I am responding to another post in which, it seems, the truth is mutilated in a desperate effort to support exaggerated rhetoric like, "This is only one example of the tyranny of the Capitalist state." More accurately, I find it t be an example of the total absence of any real facts or truthful statements to justify all of the anti-government sentiments.
Apparently, the State of Florida did not recently enact any laws that make it illegal for citizens to go completely off the grid! Consequently, this comes across as intentional duplicity compounded by a lame attempt to create a false impression. In February 2014, a court in Cape Coral did rule that a woman had to comply with health, safety, building and environmental codes that protect all citizens. It is hard for me to believe someone would characterize this event as making "it illegal for a citizen to go completely off the grid."
As I have seen before, this particular post avoids supporting links, which might be designed to discourage us readers from uncovering some of the whole-truths behind the half-truths. This reference appears to focus on a Florida resident that has been battling with Cape Coral officials since last November. Among the facts obscured by not linking to a source is the court ruling that 1) she was allowed to live in a formerly abandoned house without electricity but 2) she otherwise had to comply with city codes.
In a decision any civilized person should find reasonable, "Special Magistrate Harold S. Eskin ruled that the city's codes allow Robin Speronis to live without utility power but she is still required to hook her home to the city's water system. Her alternative source of power must be approved by the city, Eskin said." {1}
There is still another pretext to twist the facts of this incident by proclaiming this woman is being victimized by government abuse: "We can clearly see in Florida that technology is being abused by the state as a means of control, and continued subjugation." Contrary to this bizarre interpretation, citizens are in fact free to live "off-the-grid" only not under dangerous conditions in the midst of a crowded community. In this case, the woman was not subjected to "control, and continued subjugation" because she was actually pilfering city sewer services and dangling a propane lantern 6 inches from her flammable ceiling.
Furthermore, readers following this thread deserve to know that this woman has a history as a scaffold. She is far from being a practicing survivalist or a "prepper." Officials with an inspection warrant found 37 code violations in her house.
"The most hazardous issues were the use of the stove and the propane lantern inside, as well as the recharging of the battery," said the Cape Coral compliance manager. "If she ends up blowing herself up or catching fire in that house, then it's not, 'why are you picking on this woman?' It's 'why didn't you do something about it?'." {2}
Perhaps the saddest element in your comments is the opinion that all Americans who disagree with your position and who recognize the importance of community standards must also "believe in fairies and unicorns." The arrogant insults continue with "They are a herd of goats that go this way or that; whichever way they are told, and they always take the path of least resistance." {3}
The illusion of being superior often masks low self-esteem. How true and how sad. If by chance you had another Florida law in mind, please post a link so we all can have a look.
Thank you, Wrench, for your contributions to the dialog.
{1} http://www.offthegridnews.com/2014/02/2 … s-illegal/
{2} http://www.businessweek.com/articles/20 … al-code#p4
{3} http://hubpages.com/forum/post/2659516+1,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000 applauses to Quilligrapher for elucidating this truthful response! Resorting to ad hominem personal attacks is against HubPages and Forum TOs. In addition to low self-esteem, this behavior is evident of being immature. One can disagree intelligently and as adults without resorting to the lowest common denominator.
http://www.businessweek.com/articles/20 … al-code#p1
Hear Ye! Hear Ye!
It's hard for me to believe that you would "not" characterize such an event as "it is illegal for a citizen to go completely off the grid." What I have suggested is a whole truth, and nothing but the truth. A city code is a type of law. Is it not? When city codes are violated there are usually fines, and penalties. In your quote from the article, it plainly states that the judge concluded," ... she is still required to hook her home to the city's water system. Her alternative source of power must be approved by the city, Eskin said."
There are two things wrong with this statement: First of all, if a citizen chooses to use rainwater, it does not affect the health and well being of anyone else. So such a requirement obviously exists to legally steal money from the citizen. Secondly, it should be common sense that this corrupt system that masquerades as a free democratic state commonly uses tactics such as "code compliance", and " must be approved by the city", as a means to stack the deck against the citizen, and collect tribute. And of course, the average citizen buys into the bull that all of these codes are for the public safety.
Here are excerpts from the article with analysis:
Excerpt A: "Cape Coral argued that it had nothing against Speronis going off grid, only with how she’d done so. “There are an awful lot of alternatives out there that meet code,” says Frank Cassidy, the city’s code compliance division manager.“The problem is that she is not using those methods.” He ticked off a litany of municipal resources for cisterns,composting toilets, retrofit grants, equipment, housing assistance, and programs to sell excess solar power to the grid."
Analysis: Of course, Gomer Pyle would say, "Gee Sargeant, that sounds like a good idear?" I especially like the " ... and programs to sell excess solar power to the grid." In the Florida county I live in, the city will buy your excess solar power for 2 cents per kilowatt hour. They will then resale it to your neighbor for 14-15 cents per kilowatt hour. Quite a mark up! They will even sell it back to you at the same price of 14-15 cents! Cape Coral had a problem with the way Speronis went off the grid because she didn't put any money in their greedy hands. The fat and the lazy at city hall can't allow such behavior to become contagious, since it might force them to get a real job, instead of leaching off of everyone else.
Excerpt B: "The city contends (Cape Coral) that using rainwater and solar energy violates the International Property Maintenance Code, which is used in many U.S. and Canadian communities. It “states that properties are unsafe to live in if they do not have electricity and running water,” according to Off The Grid News, though Speronis has both electricity and water."
Analysis: I nearly passed out when I read this: ... “states that properties are unsafe to live in if they do not have electricity and running water.” Of course, it's not safe for the greedy Capitalists who benefit the most from this corrupt system to allow independence from public utilities. But I fail to see how it is unsafe for the average citizen. Did Columbus have running water and electricity? How about Abraham Lincoln? Billions of people have lived and died, civilizations have risen, prospered, and have fallen without electricity, or one drop of running water! This is one example of how gullible the average person is. The International Property Maintenance Code is obviously designed to make lot of money for greedy Capitalists.
But now Mr. Quilligrapher, I must inform you that you have made a fatal error. It appears that you are guilty of doing the same thing you have accused me of doing on several occasions. Apparently, in your rush to pass judgement, you forgot to mention that the special magistrate dismissed 33 of the 36 code and ordinance infractions you so gleefully mentioned! Here we have a perfect case of the pot calling the kettle lavender maroon.
Before closing I will address your contention that I am an arrogant and insulting person who has low self-esteem. It is not unusual for someone who speaks the truth, and challenges the status quo to be vilified by a public that has grown accustomed to servitude and tyranny. Suggesting that I have low self-esteem is laughable. Using your logic, anyone who has ever spoken against this system of evil had low self esteem. This includes Emma Goldman, Henry David Thoreau, Tecumseh, Goyathlay, Tatanka Iyo Tanka, and Harriet Tubman. If this is true what you suggest, then the world should thank God for people who have low self-esteem.
I do not recall stating that I was superior to anyone. But for the record, I am superior to anyone who celebrates the life, and dubious accomplishments of Columbus: a rapist, a thief, and a murderer. Yes, in this respect I am quite superior. Furthermore, my references to followers of evil being like a herd of goats should not necessarily be construed as an insult; it is simply a factual statement that accurately describes the behavior of millions of people. I happen to like goats, and I would never eat,or mistreat a goat. I think they are cute.But, I think they are little more independent than sheep.
Hello Mr. Wrenchbisquit.
I will try to avoid your personal opinions because I respect your right to believe any thing you wish. I shall try my best to just focus on the blatantly false attempts to bolster some questionable conclusions.
1. The first flawed contention proclaimed, "So such a requirement [access to city water] obviously exists to legally steal money from the citizen."
Codes that require access to municipal utilities do not prevent citizens from living off the grid. Citizens who hook up are not obligated to pay for resources they do not consume. Garbage collection may be the only exception.
Your second startling contention proves you are not a professional engineer and reveals how little you know about public safety: "And of course, the average citizen buys into the bull that all of these codes are for the public safety." I noticed how you avoided any mention of which codes are for the public safety and which are not. Ms. Speronis hung a propane lantern 6 inches below her flammable ceiling. Is this a fire hazard and are occupants at risk? Technically, you are not qualified to make such a distinction so it must be easier for you to condemn all codes as larceny directed against the civilian population.
Your elegant rhetoric does not contain a single fact to support your claim that Florida law makes it illegal for a citizen to go completely off the grid. Codes do not prevent anyone from living off the grid. They simply insure that the government is meeting its obligations to protect all citizens even the anarchists. When one chooses to reside within a municipal jurisdiction, one chooses to comply with its applicable codes. Most reasonable folks find this rather easy to understand.
In your analysis under Excerpt A you agree that Ms. Speronis was free to live off the grid. However, you focus on one meaningless diversion about the selling electricity to the Electric Company. You created an elaborate and transparent straw man just to avoid admitting she is legally free to live off the grid!
Then you follow this with a series of statements you can not even prove are true, more irrational distractions rather than verifiable proof." Cape Coral had a problem with the way Speronis went off the grid because she didn't put any money in their greedy hands. The fat and the lazy at city hall can't allow such behavior to become contagious, since it might force them to get a real job, instead of leaching off of everyone else."
Wow! How bizarre! You drafted an entire script in your own mind around characters you have never met and (this is the scary part) you believe it is real. You offer no evidence that "Cape Coral had a problem with the way Speronis went off the grid." You have no means of knowing the city's motivation was "she didn't put any money in their greedy hands."
I do see a pattern. Not long ago, you pretended to know the contents of a telephone conversation, again between two people you never met. Both of these instances contain pure fabrications just to make a point. {1}
I wish you could see how your post lacks rational, intellectual, fact filled arguments. Instead, you blather on at length, finally resorting to rhetorical questions which you must imagine are convincing: "Did Columbus have running water and electricity? How about Abraham Lincoln? Billions of people have lived and died, civilizations have risen, prospered, and have fallen without electricity, or one drop of running water! This is one example of how gullible the average person is."
I am sorry, Wrench, but I disagree. These are preposterous statements. There is no doubt in my mind that Columbus, Lincoln, and lost civilizations would have been much better off with electricity and running water. If you wish to live a Spartan life off the grid than go for it. The rest of us, however, are living in the 21st Century and see no benefits from going back.
Finally, we need to address your ability to comprehend what I have written. Let us start with you brash statement: "Apparently, in your rush to pass judgement, you forgot to mention that the special magistrate dismissed 33 of the 36 code and ordinance infractions you so gleefully mentioned! Here we have a perfect case of the pot calling the kettle lavender maroon."
Unfortunately, you have no case. You found the account about dismissing 33 of the 36 initial infractions on page 3 of the Bloomberg article! Those 33 violations were indeed dismissed because they were not observed and documented during a formal inspection. {2}
Now read what I actually wrote: " Officials with an inspection warrant found 37 code violations in her house." A team of inspectors went to her home with a warrant and officially documented 37 observed violations which were not dismissed by a magistrate. The details about this second group of infractions are mentioned on page 4 in the same article. {3}
Therefore, I did not forget to mention anything as you so gleefully claimed. You are the one who made a rush to judgement and you came up short again! Furthermore, you get to keep the Black Kettle trophy. You own it. {4}
In the final analysis, despite all of your words, exaggerations, false claims, and half-truths, you have not produce one authority that confirms "the state of Florida recently made it illegal for a citizen to go completely off the grid." Obviously, the State of Florida was not even a participant. The Cape Coral government would not allow a misguided citizen to place her life or others in danger. Of course, you would rather imagine they were more concerned with lost revenue than her well being. I think we get your absurd point. However, having made such a claim you have nothing but your own wild imagination to support it. In the final sentences, the Bloomberg article closes this chapter by observing, "the conflict with the city will surely continue. For now, Speronis is home, off the grid, and outside the law."
{1} http://hubpages.com/forum/post/2629516
{2} http://www.businessweek.com/articles/20 … al-code#p3
{3} http://www.businessweek.com/articles/20 … al-code#p4
{4} http://hubpages.com/forum/post/2629516A little history from my own past. It was 40 years ago, and it wasn't Florida but Oregon, but...
As a teenager my parents were forced to pay for sewer (or have their water turned off) even though there was no sewer to hook to! After a decade or so the neighbors banded together and sued the city, getting all their past payments back, but when the sewer WAS placed into the street they all had to pay by the foot of lot frontage (and a 1 acre corner lot really hurt!) plus a hook up fee and were forced to abandon all septic systems and hook up. This time there was no recourse and they paid the fees and monthly sewer fees.
Later, in a large subdivision in the country where I served on the board of directors for the HOA, each lot had to pay a sewer and water "access fee" whether there was a house on the lot or not. As only 200 of the 2400 lots were developed the private water company made a killing!
Even now, few of the municipalities where I've lived will permit a well to be drilled for drinking water - even one for lawn irrigation is often forbidden. Older wells are often grandfathered in if annexed into the city AFTER being in use, but new ones may not be drilled.
Laws vary everywhere. Septic systems cannot be permitted on small lots, and a case can probably be made for banning wells for safety reasons as well, but a major reason is that a large system will miles and miles of piping is either shared by all or the cost is prohibitive.Hi, Wilderness. ^5
I see some valid points in your entire post. Thanks for sharing.
Why cant people just be grateful for the freedom and services that the City, State and Federal Governments, so generously bestow upon us, for a trifling? The other morning I was outside admiring the new 150k street sweeper truck going down my street and the security guard (well actually a Police Officer) and I were having a cup of coffee discussing a similar subject, as I asked him: "why can't the other side of town be grateful for the convicts we send, to pick up the trash on their sides of the streets?
As far as this specific case goes; improperly displaying camping equipment should be a capital offense and stealing sewage services is an egregious crime. Who does she think she is? The Bonnie and Clyde of Grey Water? Doesn't she know that the city pumps sewage into the rivers and they have enough on their hands to be adding in her rainwater?
http://www.commercialtrucktrader.com/li … -112945545
http://www.thetd.com/freepages/2011-04- … story1.jpg
http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-ZYgJAScwlqU/T … +clyde.jpg
http://media.salon.com/2013/08/shutters … 371653.jpgNice to see you here, Phoenix. Thanks for adding your viewpoint.
Nice to see you too Mr. Quilligrapher and thanks so much for your gracious and pleasant greetings.
Now stop it you two. Next you will be reminiscing about distant relatives on the family tree and comparing artichoke recipes..
GA
Dear Mr. Quilligrapher,
Your arrogant, unprovoked, and vitriolic attack upon my character has left me no other alternative. Because of your callous disrespect, I am bound to reveal the details of your fiction. Here I have divided your fiction by eight, and for each of these eight I have given a "Strike". Normally, the rule is " Three strikes and you're out", but in your case, eight strikes puts you well under the bus.
Strike 1
Quilligrapher stated: " Citizens who hook up are not obligated to pay for resources they do not consume. Garbage collection may be the only exception."
wrenchBiscuit's Intelligent Rebuttal: LoL! The fact is, throughout Florida there is a minimum monthly fee charged for water service in most areas. This minimum is applied even if you don't use a drop of water! In the case of Cape Coral, where it is mandatory to hook up to city water, the city is guaranteed a yearly minimum.
Here are the details:
minimum monthly: $16.93
Est. Service Population: 150,000
Guaranteed Yearly Minimum: $30,474,000
This is based on info from this link:
http://ci.mount-dora.fl.us/DocumentCenter/View/661\
We can clearly see that a guaranteed minimum revenue of 30 million dollars a year is enough to persuade government officials to discourage citizens from "going off the grid".
Strike 2
Quilligrapher stated, "I noticed how you avoided any mention of which codes are for the public safety and which are not."
wrenchBiscuit's Intelligent Rebuttal: This is strike two Mr. Quilligrapher! Of course I did. I used the mandatory water hookup as one example. In the second paragraph I stated:
" First of all, if a citizen chooses to use rainwater, it does not affect the health and well being of anyone else."
Obviously I am referring to the code that makes it mandatory to hook up to city water. How did you miss the obvious? Then in paragraph 5 I added:
"The city contends (Cape Coral) that using rainwater and solar energy violates the International Property Maintenance Code, which is used in many U.S. and Canadian communities. It states that properties are unsafe to live in if they do not have electricity and running water.”
Contrary to your fictional account, these statements prove that I made it perfectly clear that I did not consider the usage of rainwater as a threat to public safety.
Strike 3
Quilligrapher stated,
" Technically, you are not qualified to make such a distinction so it must be easier for you to condemn all codes as larceny directed against the civilian population. roll"
wrenchBiscuit's Intelligent Rebuttal: Welcome to strike three Mr. Quilligrapher! You are quick to accuse me of using a crystal ball, and magically knowing the personal motivations of people I have never met. First, let's reprise an earlier accusation:
Quilligrapher stated : " Wow! How bizarre! You drafted an entire script in your own mind around characters you have never met and (this is the scary part) you believe it is real. You offer no evidence that "Cape Coral had a problem with the way Speronis went off the grid." You have no means of knowing the city's motivation was "she didn't put any money in their greedy hands."
Here we can see that once again, you clearly practice what you preach against! "Do as I say but not as I do." Is that the mantra Mr.Quilligrapher? Based on your statement, I believe that it is. It appears that you have also drafted an entire script in your own mind!
First of all, You know absolutely nothing about my life outside the internet. How do you know my technical qualifications? How? You have no means of knowing, just as you have reminded me. Secondly, your suggestion that I condemn all codes as larceny is nothing but pure spin. I never suggested such a thing. It appears that you are certainly a master at spinning a good yarn. If you are not already a politician. I suggest that you have missed your calling.
Strike 4
Quilligrapher stated : " Your elegant rhetoric does not contain a single fact to support your claim that Florida law makes it illegal for a citizen to go completely off the grid."
wrenchBiscuit's Intelligent Rebuttal: Of course I did. The magistrate informed Mrs.Speronis that she must hookup to city water. A magistrate does not usually offer suggestions Mr Quilligrapher, but makes determinations based on the law; determinations that will lead to fines and penalties if not followed. Gee, sounds like going off the grid is at least illegal in Cape Coral. Sounds like one single fact. What do you say?
Strike 5
You accuse me of creating a meaningless diversion, a "straw-man", but my straw-man has teeth, and it goes to your assertion that I do not know the motivations of the miscreants that run the city of Cape Coral, as well as my contention that this system in general is a corrupt and evil system. The example I gave concerning the electric company is relevant because it exemplifies the materialistic and greedy nature of the status quo.
In the United States, greed is considered a virtue. Greed and materialism permeate American society: from the filthy rich to the filthy poor; so much so that there is even a television series entitled "American Greed".
I do not need a crystal ball to determine that the government continually fleeces the American people. The government does it legally with codes and laws. They also have reasonable explanations for why they are collecting this tribute, or levying that fine. "Public Safety" is an effective phrase that generates billions of dollars for corrupt government officials across the United States. Of course, the average American falls right in step with their oppressors, and will even defend them; in fact they will die for their oppressors. B'Jesus! Gadzooks! Bow Wow Wow!
The fact that the city of Cape Coral persecuted and imprisoned Mrs. Speronis on trumped up charges of animal cruelty ( charges that were dismissed after she spent 5 weeks in jail) reveal their evil nature. They are not unlike the majority of governing city and state officials throughout the United States. The witch hunt that Cape Coral instigated against Mrs. Speronis clearly reveals their motivations; at least to anyone of average, or above average intelligence. Anyone who remembers Jim Crow is familiar with how corrupt systems can use the law to disenfranchise, exploit, and manipulate the public for the benefit of a few.
America, and the United States were founded on the evil of colonialism. It is no wonder that Americans are so accustomed to evil that they hardly recognize it as such! This is why Columbus Day is a perfect holiday for generations of criminals, and apologists for evil.
Strike 6
Quilligrapher stated:
" I wish you could see how your post lacks rational, intellectual, fact filled arguments."
wrenchBiscuit's Intelligent Rebuttal: On the contrary, I see perfectly that my arguments leave you no where to go! Consequently, you must resort to character assassination. I am surprised that a man of your stature would resort to a tact more suitable for the happy hour crowd that shops for velvet Elvis posters at swap meets on the weekends; the ones who actually know all the words to Lee Greenwood's epic song: "I'm Proud To Be An American".
Of course my arguments are convincing.The world functioned for millennia without electricity and running water. Even a 5th grader knows this irrefutable fact! Whether or not Columbus and Lincoln would have been better off with these modern amenities is beside the point. The discussion is not about convenience Mr. Quilligrapher. But you clearly have trouble staying on topic.
The point is: Contrary to the International Property Maintenance Code, it is "not" unsafe to live without electricity or running water! The historical record clearly verifies my assertion. Apparently, for some, rationality, and intelligence are inextricably bound to a love of Capitalism, materialistic values, and a herd mentality.The fact that the general public would blindly, and without question, accept this ridiculous mandate that was included in the international maintenance code reveals that a herd of goats might actually be smarter!
Strike 7
Quilligrapher stated : "Unfortunately, you have no case. You found the account about dismissing 33 of the 36 initial infractions on page 3 of the Bloomberg article! Those 33 violations were indeed dismissed because they were not observed and documented during a formal inspection. " A team of inspectors went to her home with a warrant and officially documented 37 observed violations which were not dismissed by a magistrate. The details about this second group of infractions are mentioned on page 4 in the same article.Therefore, I did not forget to mention anything as you so gleefully claimed."
wrenchBiscuit's Intelligent Rebuttal: Of course you did Mr. Quilligrapher, but it is obvious you cannot see the forest for the trees! I noted that you failed to reveal that 33 of the 36 code violations were dismissed. And you have just admitted it! By selectively telling half of the story, you purposely steer the reader away from the fact that the city of Cape Coral was on a witch hunt, and that they were bound and determined to punish Mrs. Speronis for standing up against tyranny. Since I had already made it clear that the city was in error,and that Mrs. Speronis had been wronged, I did not feel it was necessary to beat a dead horse. However, I must agree that I should have mentioned it previously, since it only serves to make a stronger case against the immoral policies of Cape Coral.
Strike 8
Quilligrapher stated: In the final analysis, despite all of your words, exaggerations, false claims, and half-truths, you have not produce one authority that confirms "the state of Florida recently made it illegal for a citizen to go completely off the grid. Obviously, the State of Florida was not even a participant."
wrenchBiscuit's Intelligent Rebuttal: Of course I produced one authority. The magistrate who handed down the ruling that Mrs Speronis must be connected to city water is the authority. A 5th grader would also know this fact Mr Quilligrapher! Furthermore, the state of Florida sanctions the city of Cape Coral's right to require a mandatory water hook up. Cities must follow the general policies and guidelines of the state; not vice versa. Thus, it can be understood that, in effect, it is illegal in the state of Florida to completely go off the grid. Your propensity for semantics is legendary, so I am not surprised that you would pretend not to understand my original meaning.
Greetings My Fellow Hub Member
This woman is obviously living in sub-human conditions. No longer should the State capitulate to such a woman that willfully opposes our beloved Nation - with her lies and deceit. We shall senden continuous track machines to dig up her front yard. We shall senden squadrons to storm the woman's house and place her unter arrest. We shall mobilise das ministry of news agencies to leak information in an effort to bury her name. Until once again, the Homeland!, das Homeland! is secure for a thousand years.Don't get too excited Mr. WrenchBiscuit, because I disagree with about half of your fiery OP, although I can appreciate the spirit behind it. For example, I don't think its reasonable to call "shotgun" on an entire hemisphere, but it must be disenfranchising to hear the phrase "founding fathers".
If it were me, I would hammer your excellent ideals on freedom and individualism and the negative aspects of materialism and be less confrontational by dropping the particulars. Every good man can get on board with good ideals if they are not confronted by a misuse of guilt or conscience. Ideals and thoughts such as where you talk about real estate and the homeless and taxes here: http://hubpages.com/forum/topic/125709? … ost2657077 I found thoughtful.
I would be interested to know which half you disagree with. Furthermore, I am puzzled about your comment: " Every good man can get on board with good ideals if they are not confronted by a misuse of guilt or conscience." Who have I confronted, except for the guilty? Furthermore, if you saw a train coming, would you throw a rock and yell at the man sleeping on the track, or would you casually walk toward him whispering?
"The world functioned for millennia without electricity and running water."
They died from it, too, just as they are in Africa and other parts of the world today. Drinking contaminated water or eating spoiled food is a great way to join our ancestors.
As an example of why not to hook up, this one is poor indeed.Do you have a 1.6 gallon low flow in your water closet Mr Wilderness? Have you ever burned birthday candles inside your house? Is there any camping equipment out in your garage? Have you ever been a member of the communist party?
Please correct me if I am wrong, but I do not recall suggesting that we should start drinking contaminated water and eating spoiled food. Here you go again with the spin. Apparently, you are suggesting that without Capitalist control of the food and water supply, we are all lost; that unless the greedy can profit from the God given natural resources that are the birthright of every human being, it will be impossible for the human race to move forward.
Contrary to what you are suggesting, a centralized water supply is actually more dangerous in this day and age than ever before. An entire city could be infected and wiped out in a matter of days by introducing biological agents, or chemical contaminants into the water supply. The widespread use of rainwater, and private wells when possible , would help to reduce such a threat.
Below is an excerpt from this website: http://www.resilientcommunities.com/a-r … -supplies/
"What experts discovered is that the biggest danger isn’t the water treatment facilities. These facilities are manned 24 hours a day and process so much water that an effective bioterrorist attack would require literally truckloads of contaminant to be effective. In addition, many potential biohazard threats would most likely be discovered by testing equipment within the facility.
However, the distribution system is another matter. Once water has left the treatment facility, all bets are off in terms of security. A terrorist plot could easily inject contaminants into major water pipelines serving large cities.
Even more alarming is the fact that many experts think a bio-terrorist water attack could actually originate inside a home or on the street. By pumping contaminated water into the existing freshwater system via a kitchen sink or a fire hydrant, biological contaminants could easily be introduced into a system without any filtration or testing to impede the spread of illness."
We were not born into such a hostile world Mr. Wilderness. Mankind has simply been hijacked by unscrupulous humans, and other entities bent on power and control. Once we have eliminated this problem, the earth can take care of it's own. And how can this be done? To borrow a phrase: "By any means necessary".Why do you think such effort is made to drill wells in poor countries? Because they're drinking contaminated water, not because it enslaves people to government.
Yes, central water is open to terrorists. Tell me, how many people (ever) have died from such an attack? Now, how many people have died in just the last month from bad water? Which number is lower?
Now add in that most wells in cities and even towns is not truly safe to drink. Lawn fertilizer, high concentrations of animals, street runoff with petroleum; all such go into the groundwater and in areas of high concentration of people it DOES affect the water significantly. There is also the matter of sewage; without central services such as electricity and water there can be no sewer collection or treatment which also ends up in the groundwater.
No, as much as I dislike enforced services such as this, water, sewer and electricity to every home is necessary in high population areas. Homes with large distances from each other are another matter and I find govt. interference there highly distasteful.First of all, I don't believe we were discussing well-drilling in third world countries. Unless you are suggesting that large numbers of U.S. citizens have been dying recently from contaminated well water, I hardly see the connection. Furthermore, a society that pollutes it's own water source and then relies primarily on centralized, processed water systems to fix the problem is "buttocks backwards" in my book.
In a truly intelligent society, a healthy environment would take precedence over a healthy bank account. But greed motivates corrupt governments and corporations to pollute first and think later. Greed also motivates the working class to look the other way in order to fulfill selfish desires, and to enjoy the short term benefits that appeal to the simple minded: fast food, shopping malls, driving automobiles,television,beer, Lee Greenwood, and karaoke!
In the meantime, while the world is catching up, rainwater in certain highly populated areas, when properly treated, can be a safe, and inexpensive alternative to centralized city water systems.
Below is an excerpt from the following website: http://chemistry.about.com/od/waterchem … -Water.htm
"The levels of pollution, pollen, mold, and other contaminants are low -- possibly lower than your public drinking water supply. Keep in mind, rain does pick up low levels of bacteria as well as dust and occasional insect parts, so you may want to treat rain water before drinking it."
Finally, not many seem to realize that concentrating large numbers of people like sardines is simply not a good idea. Cities exist today in the United States as a result of the Industrial Revolution, and the materialistic, Capitalist influence that led to an urban concentration around factories, and centers of business and commerce. We can now see the chickens that have come home to roost: gang violence, poverty, ghettos, homelessness, drug addiction, and environmental pollution. The modern city is an abomination, and the human being is not designed to live in such an environment.
Money and good intentions are not enough to solve the problems of metropolitan areas. The problem with environmental pollution is directly linked, along with violence and poverty, to Capitalism and the concentration of populations. We must either learn to structure cities in a way that conforms neighborhoods more closely to Dunbar's Number, with ample space in between, or abandon the notion of cities altogether. This is the next step in social evolution.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunbar%27s_numberHmmm... sounds like a bit of back-peddling to me.
Although "high population areas" sounds like a legitimate qualifier, (to me), what qualifies as high density? Multistory apartment buildings? Streets of side-by-side row houses? What about suburban streets filled with homes on 40' or 50' frontage lots?
Regarding the last suburban example, I find it a difficult rationalization that when those same homes were perfectly safe with private wells and septic systems, and with or without electricity, before their towns became large enough to afford a public septic and water system, it is deemed a public safety issue after towns get those public systems. Let alone the contortions I think would be needed to even come close to justifying the "necessary" argument.
GAI'm not smart enough to answer the high-density question, but do note that in that subdivision referenced earlier, it was split by a highway. One side had septic fields and a minimum of 1/2 acre lots, the other had a sewer system and normal city lots of around 80' wide. Say about 1/8 acre.
I can't speak for all towns, but every one I've ever lived in had a common sewer system. Only those with a couple hundred people (which in turn means large lots) did not. And water comes shortly behind sewer (or with it). Even ancient Rome had both. Some of Europe didn't, as I recall, but disease was also rampant.
Understand that politics well inevitably raise its head as well; city officials aren't going to say it is dangerous to have a well until after city water/sewer is available - that would be a good way to kill a town rather quickly. They may know the time is not far off (or already there) but won't make an issue out of it except "We're going to need it in the very near future. Better budget for it now and start saving".It is sad to realize that wells can be dangerous: They sound like a big responsibility.
"Although the United States has one of the safest drinking water supplies in the world, (REALLY ?) sources of drinking water can still become contaminated through:
1. ) Naturally occurring chemicals and minerals, (for example, arsenic and radon.)
2.) Local land use practices, (for example, pesticides, chemicals and animal feeding operations.)
3.) Malfunctioning wastewater treatment systems, (for example, sewer overflows.)
4.) Contamination of a private well can impact not only the household served by the well, but also nearby households using the same aquifer."
5.) Other sources." (?!)
http://www.cdc.gov/healthywater/drinkin … eases.html
*Aquifer 'is a body of permeable rock that can contain or transmit groundwater." W
"Owners of private wells are responsible for ensuring that their water is safe from contaminants. Private wells should be checked every year for mechanical problems, cleanliness, and the presence of coliform bacteria, nitrates, and any other contaminants of local concern. A local health department or water well systems professional can help ensure delivery of high-quality water from an existing well or, if needed, help locate and construct a new well in a safer area."
http://www.cdc.gov/healthywater/drinkin … sting.htmlI understand your response related to the example you gave. And I also agreed with your "high population" qualifier for the need to mandate public water/sewer.
But, this part of your response;
Understand that politics well inevitably raise its head as well; city officials aren't going to say it is dangerous to have a well until after city water/sewer is available - that would be a good way to kill a town rather quickly. They may know the time is not far off (or already there) but won't make an issue out of it except "We're going to need it in the very near future. "
...seems to imply that those private wells and septic systems were dangerous all along, but politicians just would not say so until they could afford a solution...
That, I think, is hooey. Of course there can be bad wells with nasty or dangerous water, and of course there can be inadequate private septic systems - but those are not the norm.
I am pretty sure I am pretty much the norm when I say I grew up in the era of "private" systems that in later years had to hook up to the new public systems - and there was nothing unsafe or dangerous about it. *The lots were slightly less than 1/4 acre, 50' x 200'
The issue was the expense of the public system required the commitment of all to be affordable for any. Which in non-high density populations makes it a financial consideration - not a public safety issue.
I am not really disagreeing with your original thoughts, it is just that that last paragraph seems.... just wrong. And coming from you it surprised me.
GAI live on a half acre lot; there might be room for a drain field. Or might not - too many variables to give a definitive answer.
But if I'm surrounded by 500 more half acre lots, all with a drain field, the water table wells will draw from is likely unsafe for drinking. Keep in mind that unsafe does not mean actively dangerous and deadly; it means that the probability of being that way is too high to be accepted. Part of the problem is that towns don't spring up overnight; they develop and grow slowly, with average lot sizes continually decreasing as people sell off parts of their 2-3 acre lots. At some point it becomes unsafe, but that point varies widely and is never clear cut.
Maybe I'm just jaded politically, but I do not see any politician willing to spend money well before that point, jeopardizing their career by doing so. We see far too many towns with inadequate sewer systems, hat in hand, going to the feds for bailout money to think that.
Greetings Wrench. I am pleased to respond to “wrenchBiscuit's Intelligent Rebuttal” presented under the heading Strike 1:
“Strike One” turns out to be a wild pitch! Your calculation of $30M annual minimum revenue misses the strike zone at home plate by 60%.
Only 60,767 occupied homes in the water district actually pay the minimum monthly fee. {1}
The minimum annual revenue is much less than half of your false claim. Therefore, the only thing we can clearly see from your post is that the assertion “a guaranteed minimum revenue of 30 million dollars a year” is total rubbish.
The exaggerations and false statements in your posts never seem to end.
{1} https://suburbanstats.org/population/fl … cape-coral Table: “Occupied Homes In Cape Coral”Good evening, Wrench. I thought it would be helpful to point out that your “Strike 4” argument is neither honest nor very intelligent.
How convenient it is for you to ignore the literal words of the magistrate and to replace them with your own twisted interpretation.
Under the Strike 4 section of “wrenchBiscuit's Intelligent Rebuttal,” you try to pretend, in an obtuse sort of way, that living off-the-grid is illegal. While “The magistrate informed Mrs. Speronis that she must hookup to city water,” he does NOT say she is prevented by law from living off the grid. To be more precise, living off the grid IS NOT illegal in Cape Coral when residents have immediate access to fresh potable water. The two barrels collecting rainwater on her patio is not enough.
There are no laws or taxes that restrict private rainfall harvesting in the State of Florida. Never the less, there is not enough total rainfall in the Cape Coral region to sustain the average household off the grid. The reason is obvious if you take the time to do the math.
1. A person consumes about 90 gallons of water per day. {1}
2. The average precipitation in the Ft. Myers region is 2.25 inch/month during the 8 months ending in May. {2}
3. A catchment area of 1,000 square feet will collect approximately 600 gallons of rainwater for every inch of rainfall. {3}
4. The calculation for harvested rainwater is as follows:
Catchment area (Sq. Ft) x rainfall depth (in) x conversion factor (.623) = Gallons of harvested water. {4}
5. Now the math part for roof area 35 feet x 35 feet:
1,225 (sq. ft) x 2.25 (inches rainfall) x .623 (factor) = 1,718 average gallons harvested each month Oct - May.
6. The unavoidable conclusion:
In Cape Coral, with 150,000 people residing in 60,767 domiciles, the average 2.5 occupants in each dwelling need 6,750 gallons of water per month (2.5 people x 90 gal/day x 30 days). That demand (6750 gal.) is four times greater than the potential average monthly rainfall harvest (1718 gal.) during 8 months of the year. June, July and August are the only months in which the average rainfall will sustain an average household.
I will, therefore, stand by my earlier statement, “Codes do not prevent anyone from living off the grid. They simply insure that the government is meeting its obligations to protect all citizens even the anarchists. When one chooses to reside within a municipal jurisdiction, one chooses to comply with its applicable codes. Most reasonable folks find this rather easy to understand.”
I am sorry to say that your “Strike 4” comment is another wild pitch that reminds us all just how unqualified you are to judge the need for, and the safety written into, municipal codes. It fails to live up to your egotistical claim that it is an “Intelligent Rebuttal.”
{1} http://water.usgs.gov/edu/qa-home-percapita.html
{2}
http://www.idcide.com/weather/fl/cape-coral.htm
Normal Percipitation (Ft. Myers)
{3}
http://ucanr.edu/sites/scmg/files/30178.pdf
{4}
http://rainwaterharvesting.tamu.edu/catchment-area/
Columbus Day has officially been changed to "Indigenous People's Day" in Seattle.
That is merely a superficial gesture and illustrates the insensitivity and lack of understanding even among those who consider themselves to be "progressive". The National Review Online has this to say about it:
"... Of course, to displace Columbus Day you would actually have to believe in something: the perfectly defensible point that the arrival of late-medieval Europeans in the Americas was a catastrophe for native inhabitants so awful that it should not be celebrated. But making that decision would require a point of view, and half-assed gestures like Seattle’s are the negation of even the idea of having a point of view. The emptiness of the gesture is there right in the name of the day: It’s not Tecumseh Day or Ira Hayes Day or Sacagawea Day or Russell Means Day. Those were actual people with actual legacies. By honoring them or not honoring them you are making a judgment about what their reputations mean. You are, in the jargon of post-colonial theory, granting them agency. That’s why “Martin Luther King Day” has a resonance that “Black People Day” would not ..."Or, it's a baby step in the right direction.
I think we should have Ottawa Cannibalism Day. There was nothing holy or noble about the tribes that populated the Americas prior to Columbus. The history of humanity is a history of migration, often by force. Most of the tribes in North America had displaced others often through war and brutality. Some tribes, like the Aztecs, Anasazi and Karnakawa practiced cannibalism. There wasn't one all encompassing culture or language but over 1200 separate cultures scattered through out North America.
What happened to the Missipian People who built the great city of Cahokia? They were not wiped out by Europeans, they had long since disappeared by the time of Columbus. It is far more likely that they were wiped out by the migrations of a more war like people.
You can weave the mythology of a noble people wiped out by evil Europeans but the truth is, North America five hundred years before Columbus was a far different place than five hundred years after and brutality is a human trait not solely a European one.Hear Ye! Hear Ye!
You actually think that you can spin your way to an honest argument. Your commentary reminds me of a verse from the Led Zeppelin song "Whole Lotta Love":
You need coolin'
Baby I'm not foolin'
I'm gonna say it yeah
Go back to schoolin'
Nice try, but your spin attempts to re-direct the reader away from the issue at hand, which is Columbus Day. This is a common tactic used by apologists who would apparently sell their own soul before admitting that the country they live in, and worship,makes the Third Reich look like a prep school for up and coming tyrants.
The topic of this thread is Columbus Day. Whatever this tribe, or that nation, may have or may not have done prior to the arrival of Columbus, does not mitigate the evil perpetrated by Columbus, and all those who followed. In another lifetime, long ago, I coined a phrase that is applicable here: Two wrongs don't make a right!". So what will you tell the Judge when your daughter, sister, mother, or friend is attacked and raped by an albino pygmy while walking through the park? Perhaps," Gee, your honor, I know it was wrong , but men have been raping women since the beginning of time. I don't know why we're making such a big deal about this. Let the albino pygmy go!" To an intelligent person your viewpoint and argument is just as absurd.
Furthermore, if you would spend as much time reading and studying history as you do trying to topple the opinions of others who actually have valid opinions, you would know that Columbus, in his own words, described the Taino people he initially encountered as peaceful and friendly. It is also known that in that particular culture (Arawak/Taino) that often a tribes enemy would not be killed during a battle, but only subdued. The victorious tribe would leave their vanquished enemies alive, and only take various possessions belonging to their vanquished foes as trophies of conquest. This practice illustrates that the Taino were even more civilized than the Europeans who came to enslave them and steal their land. This historical fact flies in the face of your clumsy attempt to paint a picture of widespread savagery and violence among the tribes.
Whether or not the Indigenous nations, overall, were a noble people has nothing to do with the fact that Columbus was a rapist, thief, slaver, and a murderer. And for a nation that claims to be a Christian nation, it is hypocritical, and obscene, to continue honoring a man who accidentally stumbled upon a continent, and then set about torturing, enslaving, and murdering the inhabitants. And to sweeten the pot, let's not forget that Columbus made sure that his men were provided with a steady supply of 8 and 9 year old native girls to satisfy their lurid sexual appetites. But then again, it is hard for someone to forget what they never knew, and a great majority of flag wavers, and bible thumpers, are simply too busy counting their money to actually read, and to understand the horrific foundation upon which America was built.
As usual, you have no valid argument, yet you continue to entertain the notion that pure nonsense is a substitute for intelligent discourse. Osiyo!500 years since Columbus and you are whining, why?
What is the average life expectancy of a 21st century American?
What was the life expectancy of a 14th century American?
You posit a perfect world ruined by Europeans, yet the world was a bloody terrible place, all over - can still be sometimes, just ask the Chaldean Christians.
Where Europeans the only ones in North American butchering the hell out of who ever they wanted? Aztecs, anyone? Inter-tribal warfare could be just as, if not more, brutal all over the Americas. You focus on the Caribbean tribes and Columbus but the Aztecs were busy with brutal wars and human sacrifice. You pick and choose what you wish and disregard everything else.
When you speak I hear self loathing. Why not honor your own ancestors and shed the chains of the European oppressor and return to the pure ways, the ways before Columbus - or did you tribe even exist then? There have been whole tribes come into and pass out of existence in the 500 years since Columbus and not just from, heretofore, unknown contagion.
Strip yourself of the things you hate and return to the old ways, maybe than you will stop vomiting your self loathing out as hatred for Europeans.
You will have to forego some important European luxuries like clean food, clean water, antibiotics, proper wound treatments, surgery, electricity, computers, steel, etc....
Contemporary America is a heck of a good place to live, regardless of who you are or where you came from.
One need only look back with clear eyes to realize that it is better to be here, now than there, then.LOL! Your mention of "clean water" is hilarious. Where is all of this clean water? Are you suggesting that the rivers, lakes, streams, and groundwater in the United States was more polluted prior to 1492? And if the water is so clean, why are people getting rich selling bottled water and water filters? And what does protesting Columbus have to do with indoor plumbing? Did he discover that too? Brilliant!
Once again you have chosen to go off topic and rant. However, do you have the courage and the conviction to publicly answer a simple question: Do you think it is acceptable to honor a rapist, murderer, thief, a slavemaster, and a pedophile? Correct me if I am wrong, but since Columbus was all of the above, I can only assume that your answer is yes.Animal and human feces are horrendous pollutants and plentiful in the pre-industrial world. Water bore pathogens still sicken and kill millions world wide.
http://www.voanews.com/content/a-13-200 … 74768.html
And that is after that evil, white European Louis Pasteur.Bottled water, brought to you by the greatest engine for prosperity the world has ever known and a product of EWEs.(that would be Evil White Europeans) - CAPITALISM!
http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news … is-better/
http://www.care2.com/causes/tap-water-i … facts.html
It is capitalism enriching the casino, cigarette, oil and money lending tribes of America, today. What is the life expectancy of an aboriginal American in 2014? In 1491?It is very difficult for you to stay on topic. Isn't it? You are evading the question with nonsense. I ask you again: Do you think it is acceptable to honor a rapist, murderer, thief, a slavemaster, and a pedophile?
Since there is an entire religion of over 1 billion people who do exactly that, I am certain your question is irrelevant.
It is entirely relevant to this thread ,and you obviously have found yourself in a corner with no way out. No one forced you to take part in this conversation, yet, you have willingly come here with nothing to offer but off topic rhetoric, and tired soundbytes . You cannot answer yes or no, because based on the position you have taken, you would either have to back pedal, or agree with evil. And so, you have decided to remain in the shadows, while I stand steadfast, here in the light of day.
HAIL COLUMBUS!!! Thank God for Columbus, he brought Europeans to America, the greatest blessing America ever had. And I do mean it.
Actually, and this has nothing to do with political or moral argument... but: "Europeans to America, the greatest blessing America ever had" is not only a ridiculous statement, but it's not really a plausible one. However, I would agree with you, that living in America is a great blessing.
I take it from your last comment that your answer to my question is "yes". Of course you are not alone. A majority of Americans obviously have already answered yes to my question. Apparently rape, murder, theft, and pedophilia is acceptable to mainstream America if it leads to a relative prosperity. Thank you for helping me to illustrate my point. The evil that began in 1492 has continued to perpetuate itself. We can only imagine the depth of indifference toward human suffering that existed in 1492, when over 500 years later the descendants of the original invaders, and ironically, many of the descendants of the original victims, still celebrate the personification of evil.
What vast benefits have redounded to the descendants of your ancestors and mine because there is a United States of America, Columbus' brilliant and beautiful legacy, without which the world would have been left to wallow in tyranny and despair. Just goes to show, from the foulest nest a glorious eagle arises. I think I will sing now.
Well, Columbus did not act alone. According to Casas, the "spaniards" waged a vicious war against the original people on this continent in quest of GOLD!
In fact, Bartolome de las Casas never mentions the name, Christopher Columbus, even once. He does use the term "tyrant(s)."
Consider the time line:
Columbus:
Born -1451
Discovered America -1492
Wrote journal -1942
Died – 1506
Columbus' personal journal:
Transcribed by Casas - 1530's
Casas' short essay:
Published - 1552.
Columbus had been dead for 44 years by the time the short essay was published and therefore unable to defend himself or verify the accuracy of Casas' accusations. Is it possible what had been written was completely slanderous and false? Probably not.
(...considering the true accounts of Father Serra's treatment of California's original people.)
http://www.biography.com/people/christo … us-9254209
http://www.historyisaweapon.com/defcon1 … ombus.htmlCharlie Manson didn't act alone either. Perhaps you should write the governor. Here in this picture are the words of Columbus himself that I superimposed upon an image. These words were taken from his own journal. The historical record leaves no doubt that Columbus facilitated and participated in crimes against humanity. My purpose with this thread is not to change the hearts and minds of evil men, but only to illustrate the racism , indifference , and historical ignorance, that permeates American society.
Why do you call him "Charlie?"
We know him as Charles.
He was obviously 100% behind the murders as he was the hypnotic nut job who influenced those idiotic and vulnerable women....
It is not obvious with Columbus who was followed by soldiers who were probably going haywire with power and ruthless freedom!
I would rather imagine that "rape, murder, theft, and pedophilia" were already present in the Americas without any help from Columbus.
Of course, most of that has been wiped out now - there are strict laws against all of them. Perhaps he DID do the area a favor.You start out by saying, "I would rather imagine ..." , and then you end by saying " Of course, most of that has been wiped out now ...". What an absurd logic. You imagine, and then arrive at a conclusion based on your imagination. Fascinating. Thank you for sharing your wisdom.
If you read the Original Journal of Columbus transcribed by Casas. "The Admiral" describes very peaceful, trusting and handsome people.
But, of course, some chiefs elsewhere in other tribes were very strict and brutal. Consider this account from Digger: "The chief of the Natchez tribe in Louisiana could put people to death for no reason at all." Jerry Stanley explains how in California, the farming tribes would kill and scalp the warriors of other farming tribes and enslave women and children to prove victory. "They traveled as far as 150 miles for a fight and they believed that war enhanced the spiritual nature of the tribe." pg. 19
Jerry Stanley, Digger.Shh! You are supposed to pretend that ugly violence was not a part of American life before Columbus. Mentioning the obvious truth kind of ruins the whole thread; the Aztecs were a peace loving tribe that would never harm a fly. We must never mention their gory sacrifices as they were just an ugly figment of the evil westerners imagination.
Do I hear a broken record? The United States doesn't celebrate "Aztec Day". You have apparently lost your way. This thread is about Columbus Day. According to your logic, every serial murderer and rapist should be immediately released from prison, because people have been killing and raping for thousands of years. Consequently, it's simply unfair to single them out. LOL!
None of them bumped into our continent in smallish sailing vessels on the gigantic expanse of ocean far from their homeland… Columbus did, for very catholic Spain.
PS It could have been the Chinese or the Russians. In fact, Father Serra, in 1769, was sent to California before the Russians got their hands on the West Coast. They had heard rumblings.
The Spanish also aimed to convert the original people to Christianity. Isn't it odd, that history has ignored the bad and embraced the good. That was the ever positive generation before us.
Now we have to contend with this grim reality, which you gleefully reveal. What do we do with it?
How does pinpointing the negative help us in the long run?
WonderingHow do you consider that Christianity was good? Haven't you ever studied history. Christianity was co-opted by Constantine the Great in the 4th century. This was the turning point where the teachings of Jesus were perverted, and Christianity began to move toward materialism. This is evidenced in the subsequent building of grotesque, and lavish Cathedrals throughout Europe. These monuments to evil were built upon the backs of peasant and slave labor. Moving past the butchery of the Crusades, and the Spanish Inquisition, let us focus on Pope Nicholas V. His papal bull, "Dum Diversas" sanctioned the perpetual enslavement and dispossession of all non - Christians. This document legitimized and legalized the West African, and Trans-Atlantic slave trade, as well as the invasion of this continent and all of the horrors that followed. So I will ask again: What was so good about Christianity coming to the New World? Jesus was already here. We did not need the Christians who perverted his teachings to steal our land, rape our women, murder us , and then teach us that we were the savages ! Your sentiment is that of someone who has no understanding of history.
You ask how pinpointing the negative can help, but I can ask you a similar question: How does celebrating evil help the future? But I will explain this to you because I like you.
Except for a freak of nature, all humans are born with a nervous system. Of course, the nervous system can provide us with great pleasure, but it can also bring us great pain. Why? Because it is more important for us to have the capacity to feel pain than pleasure. If we could not feel pleasure, we could still survive , albeit in a most pitiful melancholy state. But if we could not feel pain we would surely die, and our species would soon become extinct. Pain tells us when to pay attention, and when something is going wrong inside of us. Pain is an early warning system that prevents a simple, curable infection, or wound, from becoming catastrophic.
Remembering the evils of the past is most important for the very same reasons. The past is a gaping wound that extends into the present, and will continue into the future if not corrected and healed. I am , in effect, functioning as a nerve within a greater societal nervous system. Holidays like Columbus Day are offensive to educated people of all races and nationalities. For all of the perceived benefits of such a holiday, it causes a great division among the people, as it reveals the hypocrisy of America, and the callousness of the American mainstream. This creates a resentment, and a turning away. Many who might otherwise contribute to society will choose to remain silent and to "drop out". Such a resentment can also lead to social unrest and even armed conflict. But a violent attempt to overthrow this system is what the United States has prepared itself for. However, this nation has no defense against the rot, and the cancer that will surely consume this nation from within. It has no defense against those who will silently drop out of the mainstream, and allow their talents, and potential contributions, to atrophy and wither on the vine.
What is happening here is reminiscent of the great work by Ayn Rand: Atlas Shrugged. Although in her book she uses her philosophy to glorify Capitalists, we can also apply the same concept here. Holidays such as Columbus Day, Thanksgiving, currency bearing the faces of slave-owners, monuments such as Mt. Rushmore that glorify evil men; all of these seemingly innocent monuments, holidays, and images, in conjunction with other negative components of this society, will ultimately cause the system to fall down. But it is not the system that I am concerned so much about, rather, I am more interested in preventing a future misery that could very well surpass all that has come before..Your history of "Christianity" is the history of Catholicism. Believers met in groups in homes and halls from the time of Christ. Long before Catholics married paganism with Christian nomenclature. Longer still before protestantism. Though as a group dwarfed by organized religions of all sorts, many believers still get together in small groups this same way today, having nothing to do with all the unbiblical doctrines, customs or traditions.
Regardless, we can see that mainstream Christianity did nothing to stop the carnage. We can also see that the Catholic Church sanctioned genocide. I am aware that there have always been groups of "real" Christians. But their numbers are so small, they are rarely heard above the din. For instance, over the last 40 years, the honorable Father Daniel Berrigan ( a Catholic), and the Plowshares Movement have risked their lives, and spent time in prison, in an effort to challenge the Imperialist aggression of the United States. But many Americans have never heard of him, or the Plowshares Movement.
To further clarify, When I speak of Christianity in the United States, I am usually referring to the do nothing mainstream; the materialistic, prosperity religion variety that attend Church on Sunday, and mindlessly wave flags on Columbus Day, and the 4th of July.
And according to YOUR logic we should never recognize anyone without a lily white past. Meaning no one at all.
Don't you realize by now that your spin doesn't work with me. Once again you have created a fiction and then reached a conclusion based on your own imaginary tale. I challenge you to show me anywhere on this thread where I have suggested such a "lily white" thing. Elliot Spitzer likes hanging out with high priced prostitutes, and Anthony Weiner likes sending women pictures of his penis, but that hardly puts them in the same class as a butcher,rapist, and a slaver. Let's keep it real.
Hey Wrench,
This is my friend's ministry. They are incredible ppl. You might find their viewpoints very interesting.
https://www.facebook.com/pages/The-Red- … 7218910887Thanks, I gave it a cursory look. Appears interesting. I will follow and read more when time permits.
This is a story my friend wrote for our cities paper.
http://www.tennessean.com/story/opinion … /17131489/
The Diario of Christopher Columbus (October 11-15, 1492)
"The only version of the diary of the first voyage that we have is the one transcribed by Bartolome de Las Casas in the 1530s. "Barring the unlikely discovery of the long-lost original Diario or of the single complete copy ordered for Columbus by Queen Isabella, Las Casas's partly summarized, partly quoted version is as close to the original as it is possible to come," note historians Oliver Dunn and James E. Kelley, Jr. The Las Casas manuscript also disappeared, but a single copy was discovered around 1790."
http://www.historyisaweapon.com/defcon1 … ombus.htmlhttp://www.academia.edu/422868/Indians_ … onal_Order
I found this interesting,wB.Yes, that is a good article. Surprisingly, it appears that the majority of Americans who celebrate Columbus Day don't have a clue. If you read through this thread you will see where one person actually accused me of engaging in hate speech for denouncing those who celebrate a rapist and a murderer! Go figure.
It's not that surprising. What are we taught in school from the time we're very young? The very fact that we have a day set aside to honor... If there are facts that we don't know, do we want to know them? Are we open to learning? It should be something we can discuss at least.
It's our history. Period. There is no changing it just to be politically correct centuries later. He is credited with discovering America. Good, bad or indifferent. Personally, I'd rather have a Monday in October that celebrates college football, apple cider, and the changing color of the trees. But it's our history. Period.
It is like overcoming an addiction. Where we are is where we are, how we got here is important. The tragedies, difficulties and hardships of this 500 year journey should not make us hate today.
The "let's bury our head in the sand" mentality is typical of mainstream America. So just because it's your history, you find that it is acceptable to honor an evil monster with a holiday and statues of his likeness. John Wayne Gacy is a part of American history also. Wouldt you find it acceptable to honor him in the same fashion. After all, he helped to employ people, he made people laugh as a clown, and was also a pretty good artist. Besides he didn't kill nearly as many people as Columbus.
Furthermore, are you suggesting that there are no honorable Europeans who could be celebrated instead of Columbus? At least men like Bartolome de las Casas tried to stop the madness and the slaughter, once they realized that they were witnessing, and participating in an act of genocide. Casas deserves to be honored and celebrated far more than Columbus, Washington, or any number of miscreants who have been held up as "great men".Bartolome dela Casas may or may not have been an honest recorder of events. History is sketchy and often mixed with fiction. Like the fiction that the natives of North America had dwelt on the same land for thousands of years or weren't brutal butchers in the their on right, long before the arrival of Columbus. Let's erect a statue to the Aztecs and make it a scene of brutal human sacrifice.
Placing me in "mainstream America" is a first, but it's as good a place to stash someone who disagrees with you as anywhere, I suppose. Columbus is credited with discovering America - not with any virtues at all. Has anyone else been credited with that piece of history? Actually, with the intention of ending up somewhere else, through dumb luck he hit dry land. I can think of many other accomplishments I would prefer to see celebrated, but the powers-that-be in these cases never ask me.
Well... there was Leif Erikson, of course. Plus, as the link I provided earlier states, he never set foot in N. America... here's a different link for your perusal... it's interesting at the least.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/ans … -he-didnt/Which exploration resulted in a lasting change, Not Erickson's nor the legendary St. Brendon's nor the Chinese nor the stone age proto-Europeans who followed the sea ice. Colombus' explorations are the ones that resulted in a permanent change, therefore making them the most significant ones. Columbus' discovery of America is not North or South America - straining at gnats is boring.
With the same logic, why not celebrating the day we inoculated (figure of speech, given the lack of education from this platform it is better to warn the reader) the Indians with small pox or the day we sterilized the poor...?
Excerpt from The Project Gutenberg EBook of A Brief Account of the Destruction of the Indies, by Bartolome de las Casas:
http://www.gutenberg.org/cache/epub/20321/pg20321.html
"... Which the Spaniards no sooner perceived, but they, mounted on generous Steeds, well weapon'd with Lances and Swords, begin to exercise their bloody Butcheries and Strategems, and overrunning their Cities and Towns, spar'd no Age, or Sex, nay not so much as Women with Child, but ripping up their Bellies, tore them alive in pieces. They laid Wagers among themselves, who should with a Sword at one blow cut, or divide a Man in two; or which of them should decollate or behead a Man, with the greatest dexterity; nay farther, which should sheath his Sword in the Bowels of a Man with the quickest dispatch and expedition.
They snatcht young Babes from the Mothers Breasts, and then dasht out the brains of those innocents against the Rocks; others they cast into Rivers scoffing and jeering them, and call'd upon their Bodies when falling with derision, the true testimony of their Cruelty, to come to them, and inhumanely exposing others to their Merciless Swords, together with the Mothers that gave them Life."
Yikes!Continuing:
Excerpts from A Brief Account of the Destruction of the Indies:
"As to the firm land, we are certainly satisfied, and assur'd, that the Spaniards by their barbarous and execrable Actions have absolutely depopulated Ten Kingdoms, of greater extent than all Spain, together with the Kingdoms of Arragon and Portugal, that is to say, above One Thousand Miles, which now lye wast and desolate, and are absolutely ruined, when as formerly no other Country whatsoever was more populous.
Nay we dare boldly affirm, that during the Forty Years space, wherein they exercised their sanguinary and detestable Tyranny in these Regions, above Twelve Millions...
...who pride themselves in the Name of Christians, steer'd Two courses principally, in order to the Extirpation, and Exterminating of this People from the face of the Earth.
Now the ultimate end and scope that incited the Spaniards to endeavor the Extirptaion and Desolation of this People, was Gold only...
Finally, in one word, their Ambition and Avarice, than which the heart of Man never entertained greater, and the vast Wealth of those Regions; the Humility and Patience of the Inhabitants (which made their approach to these Lands more facil and easie) did much promote the business: Whom they so despicably contemned, that they treated them (I speak of things which I was an Eye Witness of, without the least fallacy) not as Beasts, which I cordially wished they would, but as the most abject dung and filth of the Earth...
...and so sollicitous they were of their Life and Soul, that the above-mentioned number of People died without understanding the true Faith or Sacraments.
And this also is as really true as the praecendent Narration (which the very Tyrants and cruel Murderers cannot deny without the stigma of a lye) that the Spaniards never received any injury from the Indians, but that they rather reverenced them as Persons descended from Heaven, until that they were compelled to take up Arms, provoked thereunto by repeated Injuries, violent Torments, and injust Butcheries."
(The above excerpts were written by Bartolome de las Casas and were originally published in Seville in 1552.)In the case of Father Serra he was never able to control the soldiers:
For instance, Jerry Stanley mentions, "Within a the fist few months of arriving in San Diego the soldiers rode into the Diegueno villages and raped the women and young girls."
But, Father Serra's true mission was to civilize the Indians. (Yes, he was quite ignorant, but he certainly didn't want what the soldiers were doing, as perhaps Columbus himself didn't want what his soldiers were doing. There really is no proof that Columbus, the explorer, was guilty of anything you accuse him personally of…
(You KNOW how the warrior class is!!! )
Also According to Jerry Stanley,
"When Christopher Columbus returned to Spain after visiting America, he brought back some Indians... to show her (the queen) that the natives were uncivilized and therefore Spain would be justified in taking their land.
( You know how human nature is…)Translating: "My purpose with this thread is to illustrate the racism, indifference, and ignorance (of accurate history,) that permeates American society.
Ignorance, yes.
But, consider how hard Columbus worked to be able to earn / receive the support / funding to explore and obtain riches for Spain.. His fierce ambition, bravery and intelligence…
http://www.biography.com/people/christo … ly-voyages
He did not intend to do what ended up happening. He just wanted to find some riches! He bumped into the richest continent on the planet and Oh my gosh… We could have it for the asking! Shall we just let these "savages" have it? No, the Spanish felt their superiority and acted on it… Good or bad… whatever... it happened.
Don't say we are racist or indifferent.
We are just trying to survive.
It could happen to us sooner or later ---> if particular people/groups on this planet or (other planets) think we are inferior to them!
Don't make us American citizens, (We the People,) feel bad about ourselves at a time when WE need to be on the same page…!
Okay, wB?You say, "Good or bad… whatever... it happened. Don't say we are racist or indifferent. We are just trying to survive." So are you suggesting that in order for you to survive it is necessary to honor a dishonorable person; a man who accidentally discovered something that he wasn't looking for; a continent already inhabited by millions of people?
The issue here is not that "it happened", but that America continues to celebrate evil. This celebration is performed publicly and is sanctioned by a government that claims to be a beacon of hope, and a nation founded on Christian principles. But we can clearly see that America has perverted the teachings of Jesus to suit it's Imperialist and Colonialist nature.
Many of you are annoyed that some of us refuse to let America forget the past, but what most of you have missed, is that unless America owns up to it's past, and seeks the forgiveness of God, and the Earth, for America, there will be no future. This I have already seen and heard, but I do not expect a great conversion of humanity, since many of you do not believe the words that have been written and verified by a human of your own race. It is only my responsibility to speak the truth, and so this I have done.Have you read any of Socrates writings. One of his most famous inquiries was into himself. "Know Thyself" is a mantra we can apply to everything in life. What are our thoughts and priorities. This country was discovered as a mistake while looking to increase trade between Spain and the far east. Columbus found the "New World" and in an effort to find wealth that would further his ambitions for Spain he lost sight of his humanity. Have we just continued the quest he fell into? How many millions of people have died as a result?
Alright I'll admit Columbus did a lot of bad things there are too many to discuss but....I think that it is the celebration of his finding a New Worlds, not like we are celebrating his Birthday. Anyway you are looking at things that happened over 520 years ago. Not that they were right or correct by a long shot.
But again it is his finding a new world, not his deeds other then that.You appear to be reasonable, and you have taken the first step, but you refuse to go all of the way. Regardless of what any other tribe was doing on this continent in 1492. In his own words, Columbus spoke of how peaceful and friendly the Taino ( Arawak) people were.
You acknowledge the atrocities that followed his arrival, yet, you feel that the passage of time somehow mitigates the evil. But it does not. We can see how the evil was carried forward and manifested in ways that also affected white Euro-Americans. The Civil War, World War I, World War II, The Korean War, Vietnam, Iraq, Afghanistan; poverty,homelessness, environmental pollution, and crime throughout the U.S., 40,000 killed each year in auto accident's, over 237,868 victims of rape in the U.S. annually, The Patriot Act, the killing in Palestine supported by U.S. tax dollars, and the erosion of civil liberties.This is only the short list!
America is caught on a wheel of violence and human suffering. You can call it the law of reciprocity, karma, or whatever suits your fancy. But the list of evil I have provided here is irrefutable empirical evidence that one thing does lead to another; that evil can only begat more evil. Celebrating evil , and a continued indifference toward the atrocities of the past, can only make matters worse, as we have seen. The celebration of Columbus Day is as detrimental, and demeaning to white Euro- Americans as anyone else. When there are no more wars, or homeless veterans living in the streets of every major U.S. city, that will be a day to celebrate.And that day is far, far in the future. We will never celebrate such a day in our lifetimes.
If you dwell in the past evils you will take them into yourself, never learning from them, and promote more of the same. Like requiring racism in our schools, teaching children that it is right a proper to keep such things alive.
Personally, I prefer to dwell on the good of the past, even if the specific person was a product of the times and did things we consider wrong. That way we can grow as a people instead of simply repeating the past.Your logic is astounding, and a true marvel. According to you, the best way to rid ourselves of evil is to bury our heads in the sand, and to glorify it. But as I have made it clear, the technique you are suggesting does not work. Of course, a white supremacist would not consider Albert Einstein to be a white man since he was Jewish, however, he was of European descent. Here is what he had to say:
"Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results."
This is the way of America.It appears to be your way as well; dwell on the past evils, repeating them as often as possible. I refer you to your own thread about schooling Indian children differently than all others; such a plan is useful ONLY for perpetuating the great evil of racism and nothing else. Your connecting modern people with the evils of the past, based solely on race or national origin, is abhorrent to all.
For Einstein is right, and continuing such practices will not change the world into a better place; it only serves to maintain and grow the attitudes that allowed it in the first place. Your own thinly veiled insult of white supremacy bears this out well, as the practice is still alive and well in altogether too many Americans, whether originally from Europe or the far east. We ALL came out of Africa; you would do well to recognize and live with the knowledge.
Repeating: There really is no proof that Columbus, the explorer, was guilty of anything you accuse him personally of… good enough reason to let it go, if you ask me…
Q. Is this issue in line with your political agenda of Anarchy?
?!There is documented proof that Columbus committed crimes against humanity. There is no question about it. Your claim that you can find no evidence does not alter the historical record.
Well, I read the two accounts. He never said I , Columbus did this… And Casas never said Columbus ordered his men to do such and such… Look and see for yourself!
Consider:
"The ONLY version of the diary of the first voyage that we have is the one transcribed by Bartolome de Las Casas in the 1530s."
BTW Columbus died in 1506.I dont have to look. I have studied it for a long time. Btw, just so you know, there were more people there other than Columbus. But, I guess your five minutes search makes you an expert. You and your overly simplistic ideas.
The second book Casas wrote was likely slander for political reasons.
I'm not talking about Casas. And, btw, you just keep showing your ignorance about the theme.
Enlighten me, please. (Ignorance is temporary.)
The point, in my indoctrinated mind, is that Columbus was more aware than the general superstitious people of his day. He had to convince Queen Isabella and King Ferdinand of Spain that the expense, time and effort would not be wasted with the whole expedition sailing headlong to the perimeters of the earth. He knew the earth was not flat. If he was not aware that the earth was NOT flat, he wouldn't have embarked on the quest to find stuff in India.
So that is pretty Good of Columbus, even if the soldiers of the day did not show ANY humanity what so ever ! There is no proof the Admiral was on board with their ruthless destructive behavior… (...maybe that is just wishful thinking.)
Proof? Anyone?
We were in the dark ages and the dark ages were dark. We are not yet very evolved, this is true. The future should be better.
The future WILL be better if humankind unite and progress beyond artificial, man-made boundaries. Yes, there were quite egregious acts committed in the past and all such acts should be remembered; however to constantly DWELL in the past promotes a toxic, victim-induced mindset and outlook which precludes one from advancement and progress. Continue the discussion all.
Since the mindless majority are "constantly" glorifying evil, and yearly celebrating a tyrant like Christopher Columbus. It only follows that educated men and women of conscience would "constantly" protest such celebrations . Furthermore, I believe that this is the first forum post I have ever made concerning Columbus, which hardly qualifies as "constant". Consequently, your argument reveals that you have chosen to do nothing at all, and are annoyed at those who have taken the time to publicly speak out against evil.
Perhaps we are evolving toward what is less evil. It is less evil to respect humans who are just living in innocence and harmony…for instance, children. What about those who are not so innocent? For instance, criminals? (Heaven may be coming to earth, but we have a long long way to go.)
Rambling on longer: Jesus said to God, "Forgive them. They know not what they do…" Maybe what you are doing, wB, is making us aware of what was done, so it won't happen again… today or in the future. But, man is ever fallible unless anchored in love and a sense of reality.
Is it doable? with human nature being what it is… prone to "material gain and the praise of others."
Of course it's doable. It starts with education, and deprogramming, and a movement away from materialism. Materialism, and the technology associated with it, has blinded mankind to the possibilities of more useful and important moral, and social technologies; technologies that have yet to be as fully realized.
Wrench will know when the fairies and unicorns tell him.
If its toward less, we might have to wait more than 300 years, or longer!!!
- another factor in all this is the human propensity toward a life of ease…
laziness, if you will.
I miss the days of no computers in some ways …
in other ways???? glad they're here.
- as Jesus said, "the harvest is abundant but the laborers are few."
Sad, but true. Ask anyone…
TWISI
I'm very glad to see you back and that your error wasn't actually fatal. We would have missed you.
Thank you, Beth, for your concern.
I succumbed to death by hyperbole. What a horrible way to die!
Fortunately, my “fatal” error was actually someone else’s “non-fatal” error. Hence, I live to make another “fatal” error on the morrow.As I am busy attending to other matters, I am presently unable to respond to your unwarranted vitriolic attack upon my character, but I assure you that a response is forthcoming.
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