Should we be silent?

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atomswifeyposted 14 years ago
I was posed the argument that I was quote: "Having an agenda" when speaking/writing my beliefs about God on this forum.

I question back though, who it is that REALLY has the agenda?

Ok, we are here on hubs to write and otherwise voice our opinions thoughts etc.

I tend to navigate towards the topics which interest me. Being a Christian I come into conversation on the "religion" forum topic. I do this to engage with people who share my beliefs as well people of other faiths.

One would assume that being a religious topic, that would be appropriate for me to do, and common sense comes into play there as well.

I.E. If I wanted to talk about Politics I would be engaging in the politics forum.

So why then is it, I get baraded or otherwise, criticised, attacked and accused then of talking about God and " trying to spread my garbage about God around" when I do use the right topic for that discussion?

I don't get it
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  Mark Knowlesposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  That is not quite accurate AW. I asked you what you hoped to achieve here. You then accused me of assuming you "had an agenda."
  
  http://hubpages.com/forum/topic/20485?page=20
  
  I know your religion is mainly about lying about what other people do or do not do and based solely on judging them. Which is of course why there is so much conflict surrounding it.
  
  I am still waiting for your answer also.
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  LiamBeanposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Well heck! Isn't that an agenda; an attempt to achieve something? What is your agenda atomswifey?
  
  And honestly, is it really 'wrong' to have an 'agenda?' Without a purpose I'm not sure I have a good excuse to get up in the morning. :^)
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  Mark Knowlesposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  I don't think there is anything wrong with having an agenda - I have loads of them.
  
  I genuinely wanted to know (and still do) what she thinks she will achieve by doing what she is doing.
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  atomswifeyposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  and you still stand on your position that you just "genuinely wanted to know.."?
  I think rather you wanted another debate, you are instigating a conversation/debate whereby you insult my beliefs etc.
  do you really really care if I have an agenda? Do you really honestly care about what it is I think I am achieving?
  No, I think not since you obviously have already drawn your own conclusions to that and do not care to hear me contradict it.
  
  Now Mark, Lets be truthful, really.
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  Mark Knowlesposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Yes. I stand by it. I do not lie.
  
  I genuinely want to know what you think you are going to achieve by shouting others down and telling them they will, "find out in the end."
  
  I mean - what do you hope to achieve?
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  atomswifeyposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  I do not shout that out Mark nor do I expect to achieve anything personally in stating that.
  
  It just is what it is.
  
  Will you find out the truth in the end? Yes. This is my belief. I believe with everything that I am, all that I am, every fiber of my being that we will all know truth in the end, and yes, that all will know and see this God who you claim does not exist.
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  Mark Knowlesposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  See - you are doing it again. You have been here 5 weeks and made 200 posts. All of which are proclaiming that you have the truth and others will "find out the truth in the end."
  
  Only 3LOLs for you....................
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  ellie1142545posted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Maybe she's trying to say....When our time comes....We will be standing before the throne of God, and we will find out then that He is in fact real. He is in fact the only True God....He is in fact the only 1 who will judge us, on everything we have done in our lives....And He is the 1 that will give us the eternal life we deserve...Heaven, or Hell.....Of cours she, and all of us who are Christians already know this....Others will learn this...In the end....
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  Mark Knowlesposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  I understand what she is trying to say. I am not as ignorant as you appear to be.
  
  You are wrong. He is not real, and I will not bow down to the hatred and fear you are spreading. Sorry - I have morals that do not allow me to do that. Or do you like the hatred and conflict this idea causes?
  
  I guess so............
  
  Jesus must be very proud of you.
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  earnestshubposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Like Mark, my morals do not allow me to believe in the hate filled gods of religion.
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  ellie1142545posted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Hatred? fear? I didn't realize that my beliefs were of hatred and fear.....I always thought that it was love, that I was sharing....Love of the Lord....
  
  I understand you don't want to believe, and I accept that, so the best thing for you to do, is stay off these forums, and you won't have to put up with them.....
  
  I, myself will continue to Love, and Serve the Lord....
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  Mark Knowlesposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Yeah
  
  I love you so much I am going to tell you how ignorant you are.
  Sorry you are so scared that you need to push this. Like it says in the bible.
  
  Only it doesn't. How confusing for you............
  
  Perhaps a decent dictionary? I don't know - might help? Love?
  
  You can keep that sort of love. You know - the painful type. Love hurts....
  
  Bend over, I want to show you how much I love you. It is for your own good..............
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  atomswifeyposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  I am not seeking to achieve much of anything here. I do not expect to recieve or get anything from anyone in regards to stating my opinions and or beliefs.
  
  If you by asking that are insinuating that I do post or otherwise comment, lend my opinion to achieve, someone seeing what I wrote and thus acknowledging the existence of God or thus turning from what they think they know and believe as a result of, then I would have to say honestly, no. Would I myself be achieving anything from that? no.
  
  When you comment or post your position(s) are you expecting anything really as a result of it? Oh sure maybe a "rise" out of someone but really are YOU achieving anything as a result of?
  Maybe a boost to your ego? I don't know.
  
  I just come in here and talk, really.
  In addition to what I just said, I like the debate as well
  in respect to one of its definitions that is
  the formal presentation of a stated proposition and the opposition to it
  If and when that leads to a somewhat "heated argument", I tend to reflect away from it or otherwise, disengage. As I do not like to engage with people who are highly argumentative, if you get my point there.
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  Mark Knowlesposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Well, you are achieving some thing that is for sure. Total lack of respect for you and your irrational beliefs.
  
  What am I hoping to achieve? I have said before I am not really speaking to people like you. I am well aware you are unlikely to listen to anything I have to say.
  
  But - these are public forums and perhaps some one will read them and ask themselves a question. Maybe you will one day - who knows.
  
  My personal opinion is that religion is holding us back from developing our true potential. If you genuinely understood your book - there would be no reason for you to shout your beliefs out the way you do.
  
  Using semantics to try and make a point that is not there. Tut tut - should be a sin. And really - it is.
  
  You are not here to speak to "people who share your beliefs as well people of other faiths." You are here to convert to your way.
  
  Be honest with yourself for once. Ask yourself why you need to do that. It is the only way to heaven.
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  atomswifeyposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  You presume too much there Mark.
  You presume to know what I am thinking when I post on here. Or my intentions in posting, when all you can really know is what I have stated.
  My intent is just what I have stated.
  I would be posting on here whether or not you or anyone else for that matter argues my beliefs. I would post on here and conversate with people of other faiths as well people who share my own. The fact that I happen to conversate with non-believers is not indicative to whether or not any of them will be converted.
  
  I do like the debate. I will admit that in the sense that I enjoy the verbal or in this case, the written, back and forth on a topic.
  And I do feel passion for my beliefs.
  
  But I do not come in here with the intent of achieving to "convert anyone with what I state".
  
  If and when that happens how will I ever know that anyway? So then how could I intentionally do this for that reason? Does not make any sense Mark.
  
  Too, salvation is not brought on through any "works", i.e. how mnay people we convert etc. It is by His Grace we are saved and the faith we have in that grace.
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  Mark Knowlesposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  I do not presume anything. I make a valued judgment based on my observations. I have seen the amount of times you have said, "You will find out in the end."
  
  You keep on kidding yourself - Like I said - I am just asking the question.
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  atomswifeyposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  I say that in response to people as I conversate with them about the subject itself.
  You choose to argue or otherwise debate with me Mark as do others.
  If I in that debate I state what I know to be true how is that seeking to achieve anything?
  
  Am I supposing there that you will come to be believe before or after I have said it? yes.
  Do I expect to achieve anything personally as a result? no.
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  tantrumposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Yes you do ! You begin this post complaining people arguing with you, and you're still doing it: complaining. So it seems that's what you like. So what's the purpose of this thread ?? only wasting people's time !
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  atomswifeyposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  No I posted this thread concerning my confusion regarding why it is people would rather than have a casual debate would criticise and or insult me or my beliefs.
  I was also confused as to why one who has no faith at all would continue to gravitate towards those who do and what their intentions are in posting under this topic.
  
  One would assume naturally that the topic of religion is not restricted to those who only believe. I agree with that. But I still question why those who do not share in any system of belief would choose not only to just conversate with, that is to be expected on any subject, but rather choose to insult and or criticise those when conversating.
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  rednckwmnposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  You msut know by now, you can not possably have a "casual debate," over religion. If that were possable, crsuades would have never happned. There would be no Jihads, no suicide bombers. People are passionate about relgion. It is the way it is, and to continue fighting about it does nto help.
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  Valerie Fposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  People are passionate about religion, yes, but I think to say it's impossible to have a casual debate over religion badly underestimates people of all religions or philosophies. I have been privileged to have spirited discussions with Jews, Hindus, Muslims, Buddhists, Protestants, atheists, and a wide variety of pagans that were very intellectually stimulating and a whole lot of fun. It helps that I don't assume that just because someone believes differently, they're somehow less rational or intelligent. I may think their beliefs are wrong, but they feel the same way about my beliefs, and we're all equally entitled to our opinions. Demonstrating an appreciation for, even if you disagree with, different points has also helped. Also, a determination to remain on friendly terms no matter how strongly we disagree keeps it fun and respectful.
  
  Once you presume to tell someone else they're going to Hell, you say someone worships a figment of their imagination, or you get defensive and make negative assumptions regarding another person's intentions or character, it gets personal.
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  rednckwmnposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  You are lucky. I did not mean to offend. I was trying to say, that discussions of regligon often get emotional, and to not take it poersonally as not everyone is tolerant. I deeply feel people are entitled to their beliefs. Not everyone does. All I have heard is that I am going to hell. I would dearly love to have someone simply explain thier belief.
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  \Brenda Scullyposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  i don't think you will go to hell,...... these forums are a bit hellish though at times don't yuo think.... keep finding myself in them, but now i am away x
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  ellie1142545posted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Oh he does...But that won't stop him....
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  rednckwmnposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Ok, I dont mean this badly but am unsure how to put it, so please dont take offense.
  But, you DO have an agenda: You wish people to see the truth, come to God. Yes?
  I would not be so worried about being told I have an "agenda."
  while I personaly do not agree 100 percent with the Christian faith, I think you are absolutley allowed to have yours, and appreciate when people try to explain, rather then yell and accuse and say ....your an idiot... or mad...(not that Ive ever seen you do this)but it does happen. Problems happen when someone goes beyond stating thier belief, to trying to say they are the only right ones, and everyone else is bologna.
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  sneakorocksolidposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  It's salami, everyone else is salami.
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  ellie1142545posted 14 years agoin reply to this
  I have this same problem myself...So I quit asking questions in the forum...I just answer....We are baraded, I believe, because all the non-christians think that we are pushing our beliefs on to them....
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tantrumposted 14 years ago
maybe it's your approach. You get involved and wind up,copying and pasting Bible quotes, answering none believers, like me. Don't pay attention to us and Go on! there are a lot of persons here that think just as you! Wait for them to come, and we will leave. Don't answer us!! that's the clue!
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  Daniel Carterposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Nonbelievers look for the "rush" of confronting believers. They test their own theories and skills out by disagreement, which is really a form of rational, analytical thinking. Without such questioning, we could never really derive truth. It's by testing our theories and beliefs, by shaking up the comfort zones that we can actually think new thoughts and therefore derive some truth.
  
  At least that's my take on it.
  
  So, although it may appear to be a form of disrespect for your beliefs, if you can keep in mind that other's comments are really about THEM, not you. They are projecting a portion of themselves on to you.
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  atomswifeyposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  that makes sense
  Thank you
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pauldeedsposted 14 years ago
While the short title of the forum is "Religion", the description is "World religions, theology, epistemology, and the philosophy of religion", which I think opens it to all perspectives on religion, including agnosticism, atheism, etc.

That, of course, doesn't mean that you should be silent, but it does mean that there will be people that don't agree with you participating in the discussion.
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pgrundyposted 14 years ago
The title of the first thread I saw you posting on was "Christianity: People Don't Send Themselves to Hell, God Sends Them" and the gist of the thread was people should believe on Christian terms or God will send them to hell.

Did you seriously think that idea wouldn't be offensive to people who don't hold Christian beliefs? That's a very aggressive, intolerant position, and the fellow who started it didn't have a single hub here. He (or she) was clearly just spoiling for a fight and he got one.

If you share ideas that are less judgmental, you may get a better response. If you need to be judgmental and condemn people who are not exactly like you, but you don't want anyone to give you any guff about it, then you should express those harsh ideas privately where no one can hear you or read what you think except people who already agree with you.
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  cosetteposted 14 years agoin reply to this
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  atomswifeyposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  1. that is not the title of this thread
  2. I did not start that topic
  3. I do not condemn anyone, they condemn themselves in respect to that topic
  
  I expect the "gruffness" as you put it, I understand all too well that hearing or in this case reading about the truth, may cause that "uprise" in some people.
  
  But let me point out that it is not judgemental to call someone a liar if they are in fact a liar, or to call one a thief, if they are in fact, a thief.
  
  To call someone a sinner is the same. And I also I go even further by admitting that I am one as well!
  I do not presume to better off than anyone else in regards to sin.
  I do presume however to be better off in respect to the condition of my soul, as opposed to condition of someone who has not recieved forgiveness and I do offer my opinion to that, but in a manner that should not be construed as offensive to anyone in that I share that ALL can recieve that forgiveness and be saved, just as I was and am.
  
  As well, I do not "hide" under what I believe. I share it, willingly. Regardless of the outcome in doing that.
  What I did not understand is why it is that the smae people who complain about Christians being so judgemental do the same of Christians!
  
  You judge us and say, You believe in this because you fear death etc. that is judging. To call us "sock puppets" and the like is insulting and rude.
  
  How is saying that one, on the other hand is a sinner when in fact We all are, how is that being judgemental?
  To say some will go to hell in their disbelief is true. Whether you choose to accept that or not, so again, how is that ebing judgemental?
  
  People convict themselves in circumstances like that. They also then like to accuse the christian of being "judgemental" and the like to justify themselves in their sin. To dismiss it is them doing just that.
  
  If I sound too harsh there, so be it. I am not name calling. I include myself in all of that.
  I do not try to justify my sin by accusing others of the same sins I commmit.
  Rather I admit my wrongs and show how and where according to Gods laws where I was wrong and just as I did one might find forgiveness for that and be then set free as I am.
  
  I offer myself as the example, in other words being careful not to accuse of someone of something, I myself am guilty of.
  
  To be judgemental one must sit in a position of judgement and I do not, nor have I ever claimed to be that one.
  
  i state very clearly, God is the judge! He made the laws, I didn't. If I choose to state those laws and consequences of breaking them, how then I am judging anyone?
  
  One would only feel as if they are being judge by that standard if they feel convicted inside themselves for being guilty of breakng them.
  
  I have not nor did I call out one by name and say, "You are going to hell because..."
  I said very generally, meaning to who ever, that
  the
  wages of sin are death/hell
  and that belief in Him we are granted eternal life with Him.
  So in repsect to that,
  Anyone who feels "threatened" by that or offended by that, it is not I that they should feel is threatening there or judging accordingly there.
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  pgrundyposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  It took you a long time to say all that. All I'm saying is, you catch more flies with honey than with vinegar. Keep talking up sin and damnation and acting the martyr and people will not appreciate it. Nobody wants to hear that, it's insulting. Show respect and you will (usually) be respected.
  
  On the down side, this IS the internet. You should see some of the hate mail I get even when I'm writing about, I don't know, puppies. Somebody always shows up to blast my puppy-loving ways or whatever.
  
  You gotta grow a thicker skin or you'll never last as a writer.
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  atomswifeyposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  I just took so long as I am writing then dealing with life here at home the usual, you know: (potty breaks etc. lol)
  But I hear you.
  I understand that some topics are rather uncomfortable for some. and yes too, Honey is sweeter than vinegar, but like I said, I did not start that topic. I only responded to it and stated the belief I have in it.
  
  I know people would rather sugar coat everything.
  
  But lets say for example
  you are on a plane
  and the stewardess comes up to you and says
  "here put this life jacket on."
  she does not explain why you need the jacket only that she is requesting you put it on.
  So you oblige her.
  You sit there for what seems like an hour with this life jacket on.
  You look around and see others on the plane wearing them, but not all.
  eventually you start to feel uncomfortable with the life jacket.
  You notice how you cannot seem to get comfortable while wearing it.
  It itches, it is bulky etc.
  Then you notice others, not wearing jackets pointing at you and laughing, whispering etc.
  so you then get tired of having of having it on and take it off.
  You throw it down to the floor where it gets tangled up under your seat.
  
  Now the plane suddenly begins to rock and roll and seeing that you are over water and about to crash you scramble to find the jacket!
  You struggle with it, all the while those still wearing those jackets have jumped to safety.
  
  Then, SMACK! too late for the jacket.
  
  Would it not have been better then for the stewardess to have told you why you needed the jacket?
  If the stewardess had said "here put this jacket on, we are having trouble with the plane and you might need it!"
  Would that not have prompted you then to act differently concerning it?
  wouldn't you then not have, regardless of the uncomfortableness of it held onto it with dear life?
  Was it still itchy? yes, but would you have noticed or cared? No. why? because you would ave known WHY you needed it.
  
  So in facing the reality of craashing and burning in hell, do you not think it wise for christians to state the need for God?
  
  In the above illustration, what would happen if the stewardess had told you a candy coated version of the truth about how the life jacket would "improve your flight"?
  would you not then be angry with the flight attendant for not telling you whole truth about the planes lack of stability?
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  Mark Knowlesposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Not that you have an agenda or anything, but your fear is showing.
  
  You are not the stewardess. You do not know the plane is going to crash. There is no need for a life jacket.
  
  Seriously- what do you hope to achieve by doing this? This is way beyond sharing your irrational beliefs.
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  atomswifeyposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  I don't fear Mark, I am wearing the jacket.
  I and others like me who state the purpose in knowing or having faith in God are the "stewardess and or flight attendants", and yes the plane is crashing and yes we all need that life jacket.
  
  You and others like you are theones on the plane not wearing jackets, who point and laugh at the ones who are regardless of having heard of the impending danger.
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  Eric Graudinsposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  In our day to day lives, it makes some people feel better to be wearing the life jacket of religion.
  Others choose not to put it on.
  
  And in an air crash disaster, chances are that everyone's going to die.
  Whether they're wearing a life jacket or not.
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  rednckwmnposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  what is happening here is not everyone belives the same "truth" as you do. Your orignial question had to do with you having an agenda, and its quite clear, you do. As do all thinking people. Big deal. Agenda does not equal bad. what DO you want?
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  ellie1142545posted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Though the statement sounds kind of harsh, she wasn't being judgemental...She stated a fact...The one that Judges us for the last time, is the one who will tell us, eternal life with Him, or eternal life in Hell.....Only God has the right to judge, and only God will be the one to send us to our final resting place....Heaven or Hell...
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  wordscribe41posted 14 years agoin reply to this
  I take offense to your throwing around the word "fact". You have no facts here. If you quote from the Bible to say it's so, I'll be dizzy from the circular arguments.
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  tantrumposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  I think she's a robot Ellie 1142545 Tha last model. And never gets dizzy
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  ellie1142545posted 14 years agoin reply to this
  LOL!! :-)
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  tantrumposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  I love good humour. If you weren't sooo christian I would fan you !!
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  ellie1142545posted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Sorry:-)
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  earnestshubposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  The tiny little psychotic entity in the bible and Quoran is not gonna be judging anyone. What a crock!
  Here is your god speaking like a jealous three year old! Don't you people know anything about psychology !
  
  "I have wiped out many nations, devastating their fortress walls and towers. Their cities are now deserted; their streets are in silent ruin. There are no survivors to even tell what happened. I thought, 'Surely they will have reverence for me now! Surely they will listen to my warnings, so I won't need to strike again.' But no; however much I punish them, they continue their evil practices from dawn till dusk and dusk till dawn." So now the LORD says: "Be patient; the time is coming soon when I will stand up and accuse these evil nations. For it is my decision to gather together the kingdoms of the earth and pour out my fiercest anger and fury on them. All the earth will be devoured by the fire of my jealousy. "On that day I will purify the lips of all people, so that everyone will be able to worship the LORD together. My scattered people who live beyond the rivers of Ethiopia will come to present their offerings. (Zephaniah 3:6-10 NLT)
  
  And you reckon we should believe this unsophisticated crap! Any person who would worship a god who is worse than any human needs less indoctrination and more brain cells!
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  ellie1142545posted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Oh well, you believe what you believe, and I believe what I believe, it offends you, so what are you doing reading them?
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  atomswifeyposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  I love you quoting scripture like you really know it or understand it! LOL
  God is a jealous God
  He has wiped out whole cities as result of not Him being "psychotic" (mans word), but as a result of His hatred for sin! God loves the sinner, HATES the sin man CHOOSES to take part in!
  We are all born with a knowing of the truth. Even you though you are choosing to ignore it, are in the know of the truth about Him (that He does exist) as well as His laws (you yourself quote the Bible- read His commandments!), and it is the direct defiance of His laws that Gods righteous anger is provoked.
  
  BUT THE REAL TRUTH IS:
  God loves us so much that despite ourselves and our love for sin/disbelief, He still chose to send to His son to bear all of that so that ALL coould recieve His grace and forgiveness.
  
  I guess you have chosen to disect the scriptures to "fit" into your secular system of beliefs. You have then twisted the truth that lies within the scripture and corrupted it.
  
  The truth is however that the Bible is filled to the brim with stories, examples and promises of God's love, His mercy, His grace, His forgiveness, His care, His concern, His thoughtfulness. But YOU have chosen to disect and take it all apart and have selected certain scriptures to depict God as something other than what He really is. In that way, YOU may go on believing that you are justified in believing the way you do, that you have chosen not to believe in this cold hearted, vengeful god, who is, as you put it, psychotic.
  
  You are choosing to ignore the truths about God to justify your sin, in disbelieving. You said it, any person who would believe in a god who is "less than a human, needs more brain cells". And you are right! But we do not believe in a God who is, "less than a human" We believe in a God who is righteously, perfect and just! A God who is loving and kind to have forgiven us, and YOU as well! A God who look beyond YOU and see someone lost without His grace and offer Himself up to YOU, regardless of your sin, regardless of your disbelief and hatred of All that He really is!
  
  And that is true love. That even the most loathsome of creatures, (and no I am not calling you loathsome), CAN recieve His mercy, His grace.
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  ellie1142545posted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Sorry Mish....No I don't reckon you should believe what I do, believe as you wish, it's your choice...It would be nice though that you, and the others don't bash us, because we do believe.....
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  Mark Knowlesposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  So - I have a question for you - if that is OK.
  
  Do you believe every word of the bible?
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  ellie1142545posted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Yes I do, from cover to cover, every single word is truth....Even the Paraphles spoken by Jeus....Because they were spoken by Jesus, and are in the Bible then what is written of them is Truth....
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  Ron Montgomeryposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  OMG DUCK!
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  Mark Knowlesposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  So - what does it say about unbelievers in there?
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  ellie1142545posted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Hey!! Good Question! I'll get back to you, as soon as I look up some verses for you.....Peace!!
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  ellie1142545posted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Okay...
  
  2 Corinthians 4:4; The god of this age has blinded the minds of unbelievers, so that they can not see the light of the glory of Christ.
  
  2 Corinthians 6:14; Do not be yoked together with unbelievers. For what do righteousness and wickedness have in common? Or what fellowship can light have with darkness.
  
  Hebrews 3:12; See to it brothers, that none of you has a sinful, unbelieving heart that turns away freom the living God.
  
  My Bible (NIV) Study, also has an article on Personal Apostasy, that deals with non-believers, and those who no longer believes....I'd put it here, but it's way too long, if you want me to do a blog, where you can read it, let me know....Although somehow, I don't think you'd want me to....
  
  Revelation 21:8; This is a very strong, and some say harsh verse. I wasn't going to print it, but I need to....
  But the cowardly, the unbelievers, the vile, the murders, the sexually immoral, those who practice magic arrs, the idolaters and all liers-their place will be in the fiery lake of burning sulfer. This is the second death.
  
  In actuallity, I'm surprised I found what I did, I really didn't expect to find much, if really anything at all.....
  
  Like I've been saying, so to speak, all along, you have a right to believe what you wish, as I have a right to believe what I do...I'm not trying to push anything down anyones throat, and yet I'm being condemned because of my beliefs.....
  
  Now, the only reason why I did this, is because you asked....Peace!!
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  earnestshubposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  and the only reason I am responding is to add that there are many many more!
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  Mishaposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Impressive!
  
  So, let me get it straight. I don't believe in your hater deity. You do believe your book to the word. That means you (and all other literal believers of this idiocy) believe I am dark and wicked, my mind is blinded and my heart is sinful...
  
  How very loving of you!
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  ellie1142545posted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Wrong Mish...I don't know you...Mark asked and I gave...This was for Mark only...Take it as you wish....Whatever your beleif's are, are yours, not mine...Does that make you and the others dark and wicked? I can honestly say I don't know, that's between you, and God (whom you don't believe in regardless)...
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tantrumposted 14 years ago
@atomswifey

You're getting just what you wanted ! I'm out of here! You're driving everyone to play your tune
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  tantrumposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  and as I said before....
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Valerie Fposted 14 years ago
Not to be an armchair psychoanalyst, but insisting someone could not possibly be honest and has some sinister agenda they're trying to hide does strike me as a little paranoid.
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Tamarii2posted 14 years ago
Is it safe to respond.Everyone wants to be somebody even debaters.Both of you should read my hub on freedom.Enjoying this whatever it is.>peace 2 U all.
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  tantrumposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  If you don't know what it is ...how can you enjoy ?
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  rednckwmnposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  wich one? you have 15 and I am not sure wich one you are refering to?
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  tantrumposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  You better not. Remember God's syndrome ? Or do you want him to get banned promoting hubs in the forum ?
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  tantrumposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  I love people posting and going without replying when they don't get what they wanted : people reading his hub
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  rednckwmnposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  I TRIED!!!!! no response as to wich hub was being referred to?
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atomswifeyposted 14 years ago
By the way thoseof you who would assume that I choose to ignore rather than engage:
I am leaving now as I have a life outside of this forum and will be back on another time to discuss further matters which interest me.
Thannk you.
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tantrumposted 14 years ago
At least we 'think '
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tantrumposted 14 years ago
I'm glad I'm never going into that Court Room !!
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  ellie1142545posted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Oh...But you will....We all will...
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tantrumposted 14 years ago
Thanks God !!
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BJCposted 14 years ago
The Bible is The truth. If people choose not to listen, it's on them. Non-believers watch what Christians do more than listening to what they say.

Years ago, as a believer (in Christ that is) I worked as a waitress and Christians were the worst people to wait on. They were demanding, gave sorry tips, and made a mess. Too often in the workplace Christians act like everyone else, they steal, lie, and do a sorry job so why would a non-beleiver want to be a part of that.

Atomswifey - love you girl.
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  glendoncabaposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Probably because christianity is the least legalistic/ritualistic of the great religions, so given human nature where there is freedom there is decadence. On the basis of discipline alone I would be a Muslim, were it not for the matchless charms of the grace of Jesus Christ.
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earnestshubposted 14 years ago
Some more bible "truth"

With gods approval see (verse 6)

Then, with Micah's idols and his priest, the men of Dan came to the town of Laish, whose people were peaceful and secure. They attacked and killed all the people and burned the town to the ground. There was no one to rescue the residents of the town, for they lived a great distance from Sidon and had no allies nearby. This happened in the valley near Beth-rehob.Then the people of the tribe of Dan rebuilt the town and lived there. They renamed the town Dan after their ancestor, Israel's son, but it had originally been called Laish. (Judges 18:27-29 NLT)
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  BJCposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Your point is what?
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  Mishaposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  he does not like your god. And I agree.
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  BJCposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  That's okay, you dont' have to, but He loves you.
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  Mishaposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Actually his example sort of speaks otherwise
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  earnestshubposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  More god love! Get yours here!!
  
  You must destroy all the nations the LORD your God hands over to you. Show them no mercy and do not worship their gods. If you do, they will trap you. Perhaps you will think to yourselves, 'How can we ever conquer these nations that are so much more powerful than we are?' But don't be afraid of them! Just remember what the LORD your God did to Pharaoh and to all the land of Egypt. Remember the great terrors the LORD your God sent against them. You saw it all with your own eyes! And remember the miraculous signs and wonders, and the amazing power he used when he brought you out of Egypt. The LORD your God will use this same power against the people you fear. And then the LORD your God will send hornets to drive out the few survivors still hiding from you! "No, do not be afraid of those nations, for the LORD your God is among you, and he is a great and awesome God. The LORD your God will drive those nations out ahead of you little by little. You will not clear them away all at once, for if you did, the wild animals would multiply too quickly for you. But the LORD your God will hand them over to you. He will throw them into complete confusion until they are destroyed. He will put their kings in your power, and you will erase their names from the face of the earth. No one will be able to stand against you, and you will destroy them all. (Deuteronomy 7:16-24 NLT)
  
  What a crazy entity this is!
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Mishaposted 14 years ago
RAmen
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sbeakrposted 14 years ago
'Truth' tastes like a day at the dentist. The word 'Christian' sticks somewhere at the bottom of my nose and feels like a sneeze that won't come. I hate religious people with poor grammatical skills, which is apparently a common intersection, and ain't afraid to admit it.

Reading this thread was like watching Benny Hinn and flipping back and forth to South Park.

RAmen also, Misha.
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  earnestshubposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Here is another fine example of gods "love"
  
  "You Ethiopians will also be slaughtered by my sword," says the LORD. And the LORD will strike the lands of the north with his fist. He will destroy Assyria and make its great capital, Nineveh, a desolate wasteland, parched like a desert. The city that once was so proud will become a pasture for sheep and cattle. All sorts of wild animals will settle there. Owls of many kinds will live among the ruins of its palaces, hooting from the gaping windows. Rubble will block all the doorways, and the cedar paneling will lie open to the wind and weather. This is the fate of that boisterous city, once so secure. "In all the world there is no city as great as I," it boasted. But now, look how it has become an utter ruin, a place where animals live! Everyone passing that way will laugh in derision or shake a defiant fist. (Zephaniah 2:12-15 NLT)
  
  Sweet little sociopath!
  Ramen
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  wordscribe41posted 14 years agoin reply to this
  For me the word sticks somewhere else and feels like something else that won't come out.
  
  RAmen
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atomswifeyposted 14 years ago
To: ellie1142545

Its alright, let him convict himself in his delusion of "self". Pride does in fact come before the fall.
Sad though as that may be for some, it is true.

To everyone else:

I laugh though because I was told on here after posting this thread, well, maybe it's your approach etc. maybe you should act more respectfully of others beliefs etc.
Like that is why Mark as well as some of the others insult and or persecute us and our beliefs.

So to "approach" someone and say they are delusional, ignorant, a sock puppet, mindless, idiot, mentally ill etc. is ok, because we state what we believe? That makes no sense.
calling someone out as being a sinner is not the same as the above mentioned outright insults. As WE (people) are ALL sinners and we (the christian) in our system of beliefs, know that to be true as well, we admit it to those who then call us names, disrespect us/our beliefs etc.
And really very mature of all you for doing that as well. Very grown up. And you can go ahead and feel so proud of yourselves for sinking to that 3rd grade level of maturity as well.
all I have to say to it all is
sticks and stones man, sticks and stones. lol

One thing is for sure and God states this VERY clearly, He will NOT be mocked! and hey that in of itself that you mock him, does not make sense, you all say there is no God and then choose to mock and otherwise disrespect, insult this one who you say is not there. But again,
sticks and stones man, sticks and stones.
I do think however that people who live in glass houses should not throw stones!
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  Mark Knowlesposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  LOLO
  
  I have never once mocked god - because he does not exist.
  
  I must admit to mocking his fan club.
  
  You state something that is ridiculous - why do you get upset when some body tells you it is ridiculous? What difference does it make to you anyway? Why should you care what anyone thinks of you - you have a god speaking into your head.
  
  Seriously - if you don't want people laughing at your beliefs - you shouldn't have such funny beliefs.
  
  Love the end threat that god will get me for mocking him. Very christian.
  
  Jesus must be very proud of you
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  ellie1142545posted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Thank You....God's Blessings Be With You Always!!
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tantrumposted 14 years ago
maybe it's your approach. You get involved and wind up,copying and pasting Bible quotes, answering none believers, like me. Don't pay attention to us and Go on! there are a lot of persons here that think just as you! Wait for them to come, and we will leave. Don't answer us!! that's the clue!

This was my response to you. Something wrong with it ?? You tell me
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  atomswifeyposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  So how long are we supposed to stay on these threads and do and back and forth with you???
  We state what we believe copy and paste scripture etc. true. And?
  How is that a wrong "approach" deserving of getting baraded with insults?
  
  I do not mind having a discussion, even a rather heated one as long as it remains open and free from immature name calling etc.
  
  You say we are being judgemental of you and others when citing scripture? Feeling guilty about something???
  
  Would I take offense to you copying and pasting scientific theories etc. in your attempt to justify your beliefs in them? No, I would not, why? It is not offensive to me! do I agree with it, no well atleast not all of it, but is it offensive? No.
  Then why is it you feel offended when scripture is cited? Do you believe in it? Does it criticize you? No. It criticizes someones actions (sin) but only to the extent of how those actions are related to Gods laws. If you then do not really believe in God or His laws, then why should any of it bother you?
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  tantrumposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Wow !! How rude !!! I've just lost the little respect I had 4 U ! !
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  atomswifeyposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  lol
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I*n*v*i*c*t*u*sposted 14 years ago
Silence in stillness allows us to breathe in and release to the present...Ahhhhh.
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atomswifeyposted 14 years ago
And now, so that again all are clear about my intentions here, I am leaving this thread topic. I have other more important things to do right now, as always, I will be back on here to discuss matters that interest me.

I would hope that in the future discussions I have with any of you that we can remain calm and act maturely, void of the name calling etc.
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tantrumposted 14 years ago
I said to you
Don't pay attention to us and Go on! there are a lot of persons here that think just as you! Wait for them to come, and we will leave. Don't answer us!! that's the clue!

You will never pay attention to this advice, as it will take all the fun of this kind of thread. You're here only to fight, and you love it. you just prove it with your attitude . C u !!
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Ron Montgomeryposted 14 years ago
Yes please.

Thank you
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tantrumposted 14 years ago
I'm not bashing you. I think atomswifey's the problem. Telling us we're heading for hell and all that rubbish
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  tantrumposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  @ellie
  So are we going to hell ?
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  atomswifeyposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  I did not say that YOU are heading to hell, I said that those who do not believe and die in their disbelief are.
  
  If you then took that as being you specifically then you convicted and or judge yourself there
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  tantrumposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  You are judging me, I'm not!. I can't do it, because I don't believe, Remember ? and you're saying that those who don't believe are going to hell. Or what is the meaning of the post above ??!!
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  atomswifeyposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  The point is that I did not call you out specifically and say YOU are going to hell
  I pointed out that I believe that people who do not believe and die without recieving God, and His forgiveness are headed there.
  
  If you do not believe in that, you should not think I am judging YOU on it.
  How am I to know for sure whether or not you or anyone else for that matter really does not believe, and or will not before they or you die?
  
  I share the facts as I know them to be, whether you share in them or not.
  If you do not believe in God, or hell than what is it exactly that I am judging you on???
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  tantrumposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  On being an atheist ! You're judging all atheist ! With the statement above. Or you don't know what you write ?
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  ellie1142545posted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Don't ask me, ask your Creator...God, He's the one to let you know....Even though you don't believe in Him...
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  atomswifeyposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  The truth?
  God already let him know of that. He's just choosing to not believe it.
  
  Romans 6:23
  "For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal" life through Jesus Christ our Lord. Here Paul is describing what will happen if the nonbeliever continues to sin in their disbelief
  
  And also here,
  
  Jesus Talked A Lot About Hell & The Lake of Fire
  
  Hell is Mentioned 53 times in the Bible.
  
  Mark 9:43-48 Jesus says, "If your HAND causes you to SIN, cut it off. It’s better to enter Eternal Life with only one hand than to go into the UNQUENCHABLE FIRE OF HELL with two hands. ... If your FOOT causes you to SIN, cut it off. It’s better to enter Eternal Life with only one foot than to be THROWN INTO HELL with two feet... And if your EYE causes you to SIN, gouge it out. It’s better to enter the Kingdom of God with only one eye than to have two eyes and be THROWN INTO HELL, ‘where the MAGGOTS NEVER DIE and the FIRE NEVER GOES OUT.’
  
  Matt 13:41-43 Jesus says about Himself: "The Son of Man (Jesus) will send His Angels, and they will remove from his Kingdom everything that causes Sin and all who do Evil. And the Angels will throw them into the Fiery Furnace, where there will be WEEPING AND GNASHING OF TEETH. Then the Righteous will shine like the sun in their Father’s Kingdom."
  
  BUT WE ARE ALL GUILTY HERE OF DISTRACTING AWAY FROM THE TOTAL TRUTH ABOUT HELL: That nobody really has to go there!!!!!!
  
  Romans 10:13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.
  
  Romans 10:9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. 10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
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  ellie1142545posted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Amen to that my friend!!
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sbeakrposted 14 years ago
BERATED. THE WORD IS BERATED.

HELL IS A JAIL CELL OF WIMDITS WHO HAVE NEVER HEARD OF SPELLCHECK.
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  Shaul Steinposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Did you spell that wrong on purpose?
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Colebabieposted 14 years ago
Facts is a strong word...
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tantrumposted 14 years ago
You've been saying that non believers go to hell since the begining. Remember ?
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  atomswifeyposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  I have been saying that nonbelievers who do not accept Christ before they die will, yes. That is how I believe. But for you or anyone else to say I am judging on that,
  They first would have to believe in God, and then have to believe in hell and the reason for going there or else there is nothing one can be judge on or according to.
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  tantrumposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Good ! But you're contradicting yourself. just re-read what you wrote about non believers and judgement
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  atomswifeyposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  How am I contradicting myself as it pertains to what YOU believe in or not?
  The point is not whether I believe you are going to hell or not, the point is whether YOU believe you are or not. I am not judging YOU I am stating facts I believe them to be true.
  
  Since you do not believe in God nor heaven nor hell than what is it that you think I am judging you on or according to?
  
  Did I point out to YOU and say, You are going to hell? No. I stated scripture which supports my belief that those dying in their sin and or disbelief are going there.
  
  If you take that as a judgement, I think your perception is incorrect.
  Is one saying "someone who is a thief and gets caught, is headed to jail", standing in judgement of everyone or even the thief? No.
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  tantrumposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  It's not about me !!! It's about you judging non believers .
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  atomswifeyposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  How is it that I am "judging" non-believers? I am not passing that sentence on them, God is. Knowing or believing in the fact God does do that is not me judging you or anyone else.
  
  I did not accuse you of disbelieving. You did that yourself. I did not have to form an opinion of that either.
  There is no opinion to be formed as to whether or not nonbleievers are going to hell either.
  
  Let me explain:
  If you murder someone, get caught and do not have any excuse or valid reason as to why you committed that crime and the consequence for committing a murder in that circumstance is life in prison, than is someone "judging" you if they say, you are going to prison for life? no.
  
  The same can be said of a Christian/believer who does believe that in the case and or crime of disbelief that one is then sentenced to hell.
  It is a logical conclusion based on the laws and consequences God set. There is no "opinion" or judgement then to that either way. It is what it is.
  
  Having said that, if you witnessed someone committing the act of murder and you knew there were no excuses no valid reasons for that, and you saw them get caught by the police, would you then be judging the murderer if you said, "they are going to prison"? no. Because there is no opinion to that. It is simply truth and a logical conclusion.
  
  The same is true for Christians regarding the consequences of the sin for not believing. I do not have to see you commit the crime, You admit to it. There is no excuse or reason you can possibly give to God in defense of your disbelief, because there is no excuse or reason to give to Him. God has set the law and the consequence. We know and believe this to be true. He wrote the law and the consequences both. And then, if you or any nonbeliever were to die in that disbelief, your sins/crimes against God, you of course will suffer the consequences of that. There is no judgement there to be made by me. It is what it is as I know and understand them to be true.
  
  In the same regard, I myself admit to being a sinner. I am. I am also saved. I have been given a pardon for being found already guilty of that. YOU and others who share in your disbelief have that option as well. You can choose to believe and then not suffer the consequence.
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  sneakorocksolidposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Don't let them rattle you they only use your religion against you because thats all they got. Just remember it's not whats said, it's whats done.
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  Jeramiposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  If you do not believe in a here and after that is what you get. If you believe in a here and after then you get one. Ya have to behave as is designated as to what you believe or you really didn't believe in it! Ya know? Ya don't know what ya don't know , ya know
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  tantrumposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  I don't think so. As I don't believe I don't get a hell. How can I ? Each to his beliefs. Mine is :I believe in myself.
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  earnestshubposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  I agree, no hell for me either, good bad or even a religionists view of heaven and hell, I got it all in me! The statement that hell is real as always is assumptive.
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  tantrumposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  good morning to you earnest ! I'm a little fed up with this religion forum. I need a new sock puppet and an intelligent new hubber over here. Don't you think ?
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earnestshubposted 14 years ago
Good morning to you way over there tantrum. A discussion is impossible with a religionists because the mind is a closed vessel! No great intellect to sweep us of our feet and turn us in to robots of "I am the biggest scariest god and yours isn't, so there!" mob!
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  tantrumposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Yeah !! having problems with hubpages, can't get through quickly. I'm leaving for a moment. C u later !!
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  earnestshubposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Yep me too. having trouble with HP that is. Scheduled maintenance is my error message!
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Paragliderposted 14 years ago
Why the CAPITALS? Is it to show how much you love the idea of unquenchable fires and immortal maggots?

OK - who wrote Paul's letter to the Romans? God? or maybe just Paul, a bloke with big psychological issues.
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  atomswifeyposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  The Word of God (the Bible) is inspired by the Holy Spirit, every word in it.
  
  And I used the capitals not to emphasize or shout about "unquenchable fires" or hell but the forgiveness of sin and the salvation from one going to hell
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  Paragliderposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  And about this worm that dieth not - do we get one each or do we have to share? Please tell the assembled company exactly what it is going to do?
  
  Can't you see that this is garbage? There is no immortal worm. Sleep easy.
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  LiamBeanposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Look here. If there are immortal worms involved I want my own damned worm. I'll name him Fred. My wife will name her's Glenda.
  
  Do immortal worms eat much? More importantly are they good bait. I can see a definite advantage in having a tasty everlasting worm to go fishing with.
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  atomswifeyposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Oh ok lol So I take it you want this worm?...
  
  Jesus was speaking to Jews when he said those words concerning hell. To the Jews worms and fire represented both internal and external pain.
  When Jesus talked about hell, He wanted them to be clear on this fact, that their pain if they are sent there would be both internal and external. Can you think of anything worse?
  Mark 9:47-48 And if your eye causes you to sin, pluck it out. It is better for you to enter the kingdom of God with one eye than to have two eyes and be thrown into hell,
  48)where
  " 'their worm does not die,
  and the fire is not quenched.'
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  atomswifeyposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  lol
  oh boy did you ever open up a can of them with that question!
  
  Jesus was speaking to Jews when he said those words concerning hell. To the Jews worms and fire represented both internal and external pain.
  When Jesus talked about hell, He wanted them to be clear on this fact, that their pain if they are sent there would be both internal and external. Can you think of anything worse?
  Mark 9:47-48 And if your eye causes you to sin, pluck it out. It is better for you to enter the kingdom of God with one eye than to have two eyes and be thrown into hell,
  48)where
  " 'their worm does not die,
  and the fire is not quenched.'
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  blue dogposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  i am perhaps fortunate, for my worm has yet to die.
  
  long live my worm.
  
  is this what organized religion has become. let's all place a worm in the offering plate. your god is up there, or where ever, laughing his god forsaken ass off.
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  sneakorocksolidposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Not with you, at you.
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world of the wiseposted 14 years ago
God created man and woman, which means we are not the same. we have the believers like me and the un belivers like...
For me, i do not take the words of un belivers too personal. infact, they are my good fiends.
So my friend, try to ignore some harsh critics
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  atomswifeyposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Thank you my friend for those words of wisdom
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earnestshubposted 14 years ago
The fairy story complicates itself to the point of lunacy. Paraglider is as usual, on the money.
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  tantrumposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  I hope sneakcrocksolid comes back. He's one of my fans !! :
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  sneakorocksolidposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  I got your fan right here pally! Tantrum you're my mentor, my light in the darkness. Thats why I think you and earnie will make a fine couple!
  
  Ok earnie that was a joke. I have a serious question, do saltwater crocs inhabit all of Australia?
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  tantrumposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Hi sneak! I think you don't need me as a light as I don't think you walk in darkness
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  sneakorocksolidposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  How you been doing? You working hard here tonight?
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  tantrumposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  yeah !!
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  earnestshubposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Hey sneak! No the crocs stay up the Northern parts of Oz. They are big and dangerous though!
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  sneakorocksolidposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  You guys have alot of wild critters! Do you have alot of snakes or just the ones you have are badass! Jump'in Jack ant whats that all about?
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  earnestshubposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  We have some very badass snakes. Tiger snakes strike very quick on hot days, and a good strike will take you out without anti-venom. The red belly and yellow belly black snakes are very dicy too. We have only a few harmless ones. I am not afraid of snakes, leave em alone and they're fine.
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  sneakorocksolidposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Thanks! Thats great I have more questions I won't bug you all at once.
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glendoncabaposted 14 years ago
Two divergent christian views:

1.The military offensive against the enemies of israel must be seen in light of judgement against people who would self-destruct because of their evil. I have a problem with the mass killing. But the thing was a matter of rejection of mercy finally bringing down judgement. The same way we kill our people with pollution. The ungodly nations had polluted the earth with deadly sins.

2. There are no immortal maggots. It's the result that is eternal, not the punishment. The same imagery is used for fires that have already gone out. Mark 9:44-48 refers to heat and maggots of Gehenna. His immediate audience understood the reference . Yes, there will be a hell fire. Purge earth and followed by new creation. No eternal burning.
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  Paragliderposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  You see this is the funny part - that where it suits, you take the bible literally and where it's just too outlandish you explain it away as metaphor. Heads you win, tails you win - but the problem with being able to 'explain' everything by changing the rules is that you end up explaining nothing.
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  Shaul Steinposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Paraglider....
  I believe The Potter does as He pleases and answers to nobody for it.
  Like an artist, nobody tells them what to make or if they can destroy it.
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  glendoncabaposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Consistent theology. Let the bible explain itself. Isa 34:9,10 god says smoke ascend forever. Edom not still burning. The forever lasted till destruction complete.
  
  Psalm 92:7 says wicked destroyed forever.
  mal 4:1 wicked will burn up.
  
  When bible speaks of eternal judgement or eternal redemption it speaks of results not process.
  
  Same for punishment.
  
  The idea of an eternally burning hell is a Greek notion of indestructibility of soul. Unbiblical but crept into church.
  
  Many atheists claim to know the bible, but most of you were exposed to false doctrines that crept into church with pagan philosophies.
  
  Try to go back to original tongue and let the bible explain itself.
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  Shaul Steinposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  I think annihilation is a good word.
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  Paragliderposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  How can you say it is unbiblical? The quote Mrs Atom likes so much reads:
  
  "Mark 9:43-48 Jesus says, "If your HAND causes you to SIN, cut it off. It’s better to enter Eternal Life with only one hand than to go into the UNQUENCHABLE FIRE OF HELL with two hands. ... If your FOOT causes you to SIN, cut it off. It’s better to enter Eternal Life with only one foot than to be THROWN INTO HELL with two feet... And if your EYE causes you to SIN, gouge it out. It’s better to enter the Kingdom of God with only one eye than to have two eyes and be THROWN INTO HELL, ‘where the MAGGOTS NEVER DIE and the FIRE NEVER GOES OUT.’"
  
  Or Maybe Mark 9:43-48 is not included in the Bible?
  Sorry, but your unquenchable eternal fire and everlasting worms are there for all to see.
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  glendoncabaposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Thats the other problem with atheists, they believe in the proof text method like poorly trained preachers.
  
  I just explained to you that elsewhere in bible the same figure of speech is used for fires that have gone out.
  
  Paraglider you are usually more intelligent. You just cant get over 2000 years of gnostic heresy passed off as christianity. and I wont waste time with people who are so hasty to argue they dont look at the entire bible.
  
  The jewish audience knew jesus used word Gehenna which refers to valley where garbage was burned. What fire left the maggots would heat. So it became a synonym for hell.
  
  Jude 7 says Sodom sufered eternal fire but it is not burning today.
  
  2 peter 3:1 says earth will be cleansed with fire. "burned up".
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  Paragliderposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  OK, a couple of points - I've explained many times that I'm not an atheist. I'm a rationalist.
  
  What you are doing is extremely elitist. You are effectively saying that only someone prepared to study the ancient texts in their original language can access the true Christianity. Everyone else is duped by gnostic heresy. Jolly good. You've painted yourself into a very small corner and excommunicated almost the entire body of self-professed Christians around the world.
  
  Doesn't that make a mockery of the much vaunted claim (made here by such as Mike, aka-dj and others) that the Bible is the best preserved text in the world?
  
  And if you are correct, hasn't God failed miserably in getting his message across?
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  glendoncabaposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Sometimes I get impatient and I'm sorry if it sounds elitist. Will you now please desist from arguing and respond to the point. How do you account for Jude 7 and other similar texts.
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  Paragliderposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  You can cite passages where the images of hell are used in your sense and there are other passages where the images appear to be used in the sense Mrs Atom (and many others) believe to be true. Yours is not the only point. Mine are just as valid. You appear to believe most of Christendom has been taken in by a heresy. I certainly agree they are misled, but heresy doesn't mean a lot to me. I suspect you will have a major battle on your hands with other Christians.
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  glendoncabaposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Great point, and on an intellectual level i could very well be wrong. So let us look at the solution. Whenever the bible or any other book appears to contradict itself you ask the question: Does my conclusion harmonise with the general theme of the book, that God is love, that God will destroy evil and create a new paradise. That God takes no pleasure in the death of the wicked.
  
  Look at the big picture. I do not serve a God who would have me look at other humans in a burning hell for all eternity. No we will have Garden of eden restored, have new earth where there is no sorrow, no sickness, no death.
  
  Look at the big themes of the bible. Look at the meaning of Calvary.
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  earnestshubposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  The bible is full of death threats from the psychotic old men who wrote this dribble. You speak of love? What is loving about an entity who sanctioned the words of the OT?
  Religionists then go to the NT and try to use it to back pedal.
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  sneakorocksolidposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Are you reading or have you read the same book as the rest of us butthead. Or are you, by nature, a moronic barn-fart? Please, let us in on your source of wisdom.
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  earnestshubposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Nice intelligent unemotional comment.
  Now get one of the older kids to write for you. Your four year old is not very with it, even for a four year old!
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  glendoncabaposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Actually earnest your point is quite noteworthy: Is the God of the OT the same God of the NT? My answer is Yes.
  So why do we see a more compassionate and gracious approach in the NT? Truth be told, it was there all the time. Love has two sides: justice and mercy. Both are seen in OT but we tend to remember the vengeance and forget that every sacrifice in the OT sanctuary was designed to show that in mercy there is atonement for sin, and God has provided a lamb. A great and simple lesson.
  
  Numerous stories in OT of mercy: Lot's family, Rahab, Ruth, Hezekiah, Jonah, many more.
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  glendoncabaposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Many points here:
  1. In order to get the correct understanding it is sometimes necessary to go to the original language as with any other kind of literature, you do not have to be a seminarian, just buy a little word study, or a good concordance. All free on internet anyway.
  2. No one is excommunicating any one. Your very use of the word shows where your source is as regards your knowledge of the religion. For your information there is a significant body of scholarship and believers that share the view that hell is not eternal in process but in consequence.
  3. Has God failed? The fact that the original text is preserved is a miracle. The discovery of Dead Sea
  Scrolls a part of ongoing divine preservation and authentication.
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  atomswifeyposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Amen
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  Paragliderposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  1. No argument there.
  2. You'd be wrong if you made that assumption based on my use of that word.
  3. What about all these years before their discovery? Were they being hidden for a joke? I'm afraid you are being selective - what pleases you, you attribute to God.
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  tantrumposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  
  In the original tongue, you would only get older teachings from an hindu source. Those teachings being of the so called Nazarians, A sect that had the so called Jesus as a member. Have you ever heard about Krishna ? and here I'm talking about the Christian Bible , not the Talmud.
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quietnessandtrustposted 14 years ago
Even when I am dead.....

I SHALL NOT BE SILENT !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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  tantrumposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  WOW!!! MAYBY WE CAN SHOUT TOGETHER !!
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  quietnessandtrustposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Loud is good!!!!!!!!
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  \Brenda Scullyposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  how will we know it is you shouting when you are dead
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