The miracles of Christ

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   Over The Hillposted 14 years ago

   Do the miracles performed by Jesus not reflect his divinity? No other person in history did his miracles.

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      (Q)posted 14 years agoin reply to this

      Perhaps, in that time, there were men like Jesus ( is that even his real name?) who were persecuted by the Romans.
      
      But, to take such a story and embellish it by adding magic in the form of miracles is moving it into the mythical category along with all the other god myths.
      
      No other "person" did those miracles because those miracles most likely never occurred.

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      Cagsilposted 14 years agoin reply to this

      If it helps, the so-called "miracles" accomplished in the Bible, are just conjecture without any basis of true understanding.

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      mohitmisraposted 14 years agoin reply to this

      There have been many.

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         Mikel G Robertsposted 14 years agoin reply to this

         I must agree, Greek Mythology though not believed any longer is full of people doing miraculous things. Hercules is another perported son of God... and so on...

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      dogluver1posted 14 years agoin reply to this

      He made many miracles.. I was one. I don't know the story well but I'll give it a shot. Well my mother had troudle having me. My mom and dad tried tried but nothing. They were going to have my aunt and uncle make the egg and then place it in my mom. But, they didn't have to I was born!

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         getitriteposted 14 years agoin reply to this

         Would that fall under the definition of a miracle?

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            dogluver1posted 14 years agoin reply to this

            I don't know the story that well.I remember my mom telling me that there was an issue but i forgot what it was called...

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         Make Moneyposted 14 years agoin reply to this

         Same with my brother and his wife dogluver1.  Their youngest of three is 18 now.  Also a friend and his wife had adopted and were going to again until she became pregnant with twin healthy girls in the 1980s.  I was 10 pounds, eight ounces when I was born.  Both mom and I survived.  I'd call these all modern day miracles.  Thanks goes to God.
         
         Jesus walked on water, calmed the storm, healed lepers, allowed a blind man to see, cast out demons and raised Lazarus from the dead to mention a few.  But the one thing Jesus did that others didn't was to voluntarily offer Himself on the cross for the forgiveness of our sins as was prophesied.

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            Over The Hillposted 14 years agoin reply to this

            Amen Brother.

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            Lady Guinevereposted 14 years agoin reply to this

            Jesus walked on water becaeu it was Ice.  He could heal the lepers becaseu of the knowledge that they could at the Libary of Alexandria that ws burned by the Romans, casting out demons, well that would be mis-undterstood  by many  as it is today--though they most likely weren't demons as I have a hub about that.

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            (Q)posted 14 years agoin reply to this

            Yes, and to hell with modern medicine and doctors, which is the real reason why you survived, because had it been a time when doctors and medicines were not available, you probably would not have survived. Give credit where credit is due. God had nothing to do with it. Science saved you.

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               getitriteposted 14 years agoin reply to this

               GREAT ANSWER!!!

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      rhamsonposted 14 years agoin reply to this

      There were many documented miracle workers around the time of Jesus so I don't think that this would be the defining thing as proof.
      
      I think to be canonized as a saint in the Catholic Church the nominee has to have performed a miracle as well.
      
      I think there are other things that should be considered to make this determination.

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         Jeramiposted 14 years agoin reply to this

            There were many false Christs during this time but Jesus was the only one that raised the dead and healed the blind and lame

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            rhamsonposted 14 years agoin reply to this

            90Jerami
            1714 posts
            Joined: 7 months ago
            Hubs: 24
            Followers: 47rhamson wrote:
            Over The Hill wrote:
            Do the miracles performed by Jesus not reflect his divinity? No other person in history did his miracles.
            There were many documented miracle workers around the time of Jesus so I don't think that this would be the defining thing as proof.
            
            I think to be canonized as a saint in the Catholic Church the nominee has to have performed a miracle as well.
            
            I think there are other things that should be considered to make this determination.
            There were many false Christs during this time but Jesus was the only one that raised the dead and healed the blind and lame
            
            Or so the people of those times understood them to be.

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               wesleyacarterposted 14 years agoin reply to this

               what makes you so sure this really happened?

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      L. Andrew Marrposted 14 years agoin reply to this

      There was a theory that the miracles of Jesus were just the alteration of time.
      
      Water is a key ingrediant in Wine so water could have been turning into wine with time.
      Water turns to Ice which is solid and can be walked on.
      Death comes after life so mess with the time line and you get Life after death.
      
      Etc etc.

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      Judith Gillposted 14 years agoin reply to this

      It is the Resurrection of Jesus that is responsible for the widespread belief in his dvinity. If one believes in the Resurrection, then one most assuredly believes in his Biblical miracles and in his divinity.
      
      It's interesting that in the last 2000 years since the Resurrection there have been many instances of his existence and his co-existence as God. Many holy people, the saints, have had the stigmata, for example, and have been associated with miracles in his name. Other holy people have remained incorrupt for hundreds of years after their death (some of whom can be viewed today), defying the laws of science.
      
      His mother, Mary, has also appeared in this world on many occasions on his behalf. One only has to talk to some of the thousands of people who have witnessed the miracles at Medjugorje in Bosnia, an ongoing phenomenon that has been occurring daily since 24 June 1981 and which has been investigated by scientists.
      
      Again, on behalf of her son, she was associated with the great miracle of Fatima, Portugal that occurred on 13 October 1917 and witnessed by 70,000 believers and unbelievers.
      
      Yes, there is ongoing evidence on the existence of Jesus, his miracles and his divinity.

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      starme77posted 14 years agoin reply to this

      What kind of Proof ya got that he did any miracles except for a bunch of man made books? I think he was just a dude , kida like one of those cult leaders that people follow around

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      goldenpathposted 14 years agoin reply to this

      The miracles reflect the necessary faith utilized in order to bring about the result.  They were examples for all of us of what faith, correctly centered, can do for our fellow man.  The testament of His divinity comes through the Holy Spirit which bears witness of the Father and the Son to each of us who listen.  The miracles were never meant to be a sole introduction of the divinity of Jesus Christ.  We need to remember that He was a teacher, instructor and a prophet.  Through the following and putting into practice these teaching one can receive the assurance of who He claimed to be.  When their faith was sufficient even the apostles performed miracles in the name of Jesus Christ. 
      
      The danger in concentrating on the miracles or "outward" works of Jesus Christ is that it can lead us on a path of being sign seekers.  Vast amounts of people are in this category today which is the backward path to knowledge.  He taught that knowledge shall come by faith the result being eventual miracles.  However, we will not view them as miracles because through our faith we will have acquired the knowledge the nature of miracles and we thus become teachers ourselves performing works in the name of Jesus Christ.

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         Onusonusposted 14 years agoin reply to this

         Excelent interpertation, I whole heartedly agree!

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   habeeposted 14 years ago

   And there were eyewitnesses to some of the miracles. I believe miracles are still performed.

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      (Q)posted 14 years agoin reply to this

      Would those be the same eyewitnesses that ran from thunder and lightning believing them to be angry gods, that believed in every myth and superstition accorded to the times?
      
      Eyewitness accounts don't mean squat without a shred of evidence.

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   Lady Guinevereposted 14 years ago

   Heresay doesn't count in any court of law either.

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      Mikel G Robertsposted 14 years agoin reply to this

      Eye witness accounts do...???

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         Lady Guinevereposted 14 years agoin reply to this

         If they could not write or read who wrote their accounts down?  That would be heresay because it was not the one who actaullsaw it's account.

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            Mikel G Robertsposted 14 years agoin reply to this

            With that I agree, The first 'christian' bible was penned 300 years after the fact. On another contenint by people with no first hand knowledge.

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               aguasilverposted 14 years agoin reply to this

               Not totally accurate, the gospels were written about 30-40 years after the day of Pentecost (the start of the church) and were written because people were starting to die who had seen and witnessed the events.
               
               This time scale is not a problem, right now we are better able to record what happened in (say) the sixties with the Beatles than back then when our vision was coloured by our involvement, and Vietnam is much more accurately depicted today than it was in (say) 1980.
               
               It's a bit presumptuous to say they could not read or write, Luke was a physician so he was well educated, Nicodemus was a chief Sanhedrin and so was Paul (Saul) there were many educated men in those days, more so than us, for they wrote and spoke Hebrew and Greek and Latin... count how many people can do that today!
               
               The miracles are so well documented form different sources, written by men who died horrible deaths, that would have forced any of them to confess if their accounts were less than truthful.
               
               I recognize that many folk would wish to discredit these events, after all to accept miracles is to be unable to deny Christ and thus follow your own personal theory's, but the big problem is that Christ is still performing miracles today through those who work as His disciples and carry the out in His name.

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                  Lady Guinevereposted 14 years agoin reply to this

                  I know this very well.  They burned the Library at Alexandria and they had lots of mthings written and studied there.  They even had dorms for those who wished to do work and study there.  They had a whole section devoted to medical research and there was a guy that named every single b dy part inside and outside in books that were kept there.  If you watch the History Channel or one of those learning channels they have a program called Engineering and Empire and the things that they did way back in those times are astounding.
                  
                  Why is everyone told that Jesus was poor and that people could not read or write then?  Joseph was a hip builder, not a tiny rowboat ship builder but one of great wealth.  If you go and read the Antiquity, The Chronology of People, http://www.enotes.com/peoples-chronolog … -century-d  you will be amazed at what was done way back before Christ was even though of.  They had more than what we have today as in luxury and fine architecture and all kinds of things.
                  No they do not tell the people everything.  To understand the bible one has to read it for themselves and get past the wars and vengeful stuff to see the things and should be common sense.
                  Revelations has already happened--The War of the Angels is when it happened, not future wars.  Read it and think about it.

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                     Jeramiposted 14 years agoin reply to this

                        It is my belief that the seven seals were opened in the first century. The trumpet judgments (6 of them) were inflicted upon the Roman Empire, and the vial judgments began being poured out with the bubonic plague being the first. The seventh is yet to be poured out.

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                        Lady Guinevereposted 14 years agoin reply to this

                        There is a simple cause of the Bubonic Plague and it wasn't a curse or a miracle, just stupidity of the people.  The plague was caused by the people bringin over the FLEAS n the RATS in their ships all over the world.  That wasn't any judgement, but Cause and effect.

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            wesleyacarterposted 14 years agoin reply to this

            this is a good point for the simple fact that these people could not read or write. So what might have been a miracle to them, was quite in fact common place to people of our day, who see miracles as common place. Maybe it was scientific phenomena that could not be explained?
            
            I wouldn't call it heresay though. We might see a miracle today and not be able to unearth its true meaning until hundreds of years from now.
            
            We would explain it the best we can with what we have. This is the essence of the Bible and most historical texts.

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   Lady Guinevereposted 14 years ago

   List the miracles that witnesses said that he did.  I advise to you though that those people in those times could not write nore could they read and they never saw any place else like perhaps a hospital or anything like that.
   
   Just to say, go and sin no more is not enough.  Those peop;e that eyewitnessed that might have not seen the whole action because some where done in a crowd of people.
   
   Jesus was a Nazarene and it is said that his people did not believe who others claim he was.  Nazarenes are a differnt order of Jewish sect and one needs to get acqainted with their beliefs not what the bible says nor what the churches of today say because for one thing they were not of today.  The Nazarenes were Gnostic through and through and they didn't believe in getting mixed up in anyone elses business.  So to say he did a miracle would be just that to those people who siad it because they didn't understand what they were actually looking at.
   
   There were other miracles that didn't get into the Bibel--what do you suppose they were?

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   skyfireposted 14 years ago

   Miracle ? Hmm, allow me to change time(past) if possible any help there ?

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      Mikel G Robertsposted 14 years agoin reply to this

      I dont understand what your saying?

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   Jeramiposted 14 years ago

   The miracles that were perform by Jesus were prophesied that when he came to the earth, in his appointed time, these things are how the people were to know him. No one else were doing them. Jesus came to fulfill the law and the prophesy.
      Is this correct?

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      Lady Guinevereposted 14 years agoin reply to this

      I heard it somewhere that Jesus wasn't the prophesied Mesiah that it was someone they prophesied about but that person isn't here yet. 
      
      In other words they were looking so hard for a savior of their people that they chose almost just anyone and not the true mesiah that they may have missed or he hasn't come yet.
      
      If you or anyone makes a prediction, you will look for signs of it to come true.  Those signs could be coincidental and therefore you may miss the real thing that you think is because you were looking for them.

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         Jeramiposted 14 years agoin reply to this

            You are absolutely correct from the Jewish perspective.  They are still waiting for the Messiah to come as Daniel prophesied to happen after 62 weeks. I do not remember which chapter in the book of Psalms, that it is written that God will blind their eyes that they do not recognize the Messiah when he does come.  Had that generation of Hebrews recognized their Messiah they would not have crucified him as it was also written in prophesy that they would do.
            We can not blame the Hebrews for not recognizing him then.
            Now however is a diffrent issue.

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            Lady Guinevereposted 14 years agoin reply to this

            They still will not recognize him.  I wrote a hub questioning if Jesus was to only teach the Jews and another one asking How would they know him if he did come.  Anyone who even remotley thinks or says that they are something like Jesus gets crucified and rejected and told that they are being like him......BUT isn't that what they want and yet they still reject?

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               Jeramiposted 14 years agoin reply to this

                    Sorry for taking so long replying...  Business call...
               work is slow and will always take a call for a potential of work and income. 
                     The Orthodox  Jew still does not recognize their Messiah having come. They also do not recognize that their own books  say that they will do this.
                   Our scripture tells us that the messiah has come and that he will come back as Messiah THE PRINCE. Scripture tells us that when the prince does come again he will come as a thief in the night. If a thief comes to your neighbors house in the night, you may never know that he has come at all. I believe that the Messiah the prince has come again and the Lord has blinded our eyes to this event as he did to the Hebrews in the first century. It is written in the 12th chapter of Revelation that after the man child is taken up to heaven that the dragon will cast out of his mouth water as a flood and the earth will swallow it up.  Lies came out of his mouth and the whole world believes them.

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                  Lady Guinevereposted 14 years agoin reply to this

                  First of all what countries do you know that still have Prince's?  Not many.
                  Second, I read and did a book report many hyears when I was in High School in a class called The Bible as Literature.  If one sits down and reads that and then reads the parts about when Satans was cast out of Heaven you will see a certain kind of timeline and then you will realize that John saw the War in heaven---it was past and it is not the future.  Read it for yourself, the complete book.  Now in my report I could only do so much and not the whle book, but I did red the whole thing and a few times at that.
                  
                  No problem about taking so long---LIFE Happens outside the internet.  I also had to go shopping and just got back to post this.

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      Make Moneyposted 14 years agoin reply to this

      It sure is correct Jerami.  It should come as no surprise that Jesus Christ is described in every Old Testament book.
      
      In Genesis He is the Seed of the woman (Ge 3:15).
      
      In Exodus He is the Lamb of God for sinners slain (Ex 12:5, 6, 7, 11).
      
      In Leviticus He is our High Priest (the whole book).
      
      In Numbers He is the Star out of Jacob (Nu 24:17).
      
      In Deuteronomy He is the Prophet like unto Moses (Dt 18:15).
      
      In Joshua He is the Captain of the Lord’s armies (Josh 5:13, 14, 15).
      
      In Judges He is the Angel of the LORD or the messenger of Jehovah (Jdg 13:18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23).
      
      In Ruth He is our Kinsman-Redeemer (Chapter 3).
      
      In Samuel, Kings and Chronicles He is the King of Kings and Lord of Lords (1Sa 8:1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9).
      
      In Ezra, Nehemiah and Esther He is the sovereign Lord over all the kingdoms of the earth (entire books).
      
      In Job He is our risen and returning Redeemer (Job 19:25).
      
      In Psalms He is the Blessed Man (Psalm 1:1, 2, 3), the Son of Man (Psalm 2:2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12), the Crucified One (Psalm 22), the Coming One (Psalm 24), the Reigning One (Psalm 72).
      
      In Proverbs He is our Wisdom (Pr 14).
      
      In Ecclesiastes He is the forgotten Wise Man (Eccl 9:14, 15).
      
      In Song of Solomon He is my Beloved (Song 2:16).
      
      In Isaiah He is our suffering Substitute (Isa 53).
      
      In Jeremiah He is the LORD OUR RIGHTEOUSNESS (Jer 23:6).
      
      In Lamentations He is the Man of sorrows who weeps for His people (Lam 1:12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18).
      
      In Ezekiel He is the glory of God (Ezek 1:28).
      
      In Daniel He is the Smiting Stone (Da 2:34) and the Companion in the furnace of fire and the den of lions (Da 3:24, 25; 6:22).
      
      In Hosea He is David’s Greater King (Hos 3:5).
      
      In Joel He is the Hope of His people (Joel 3:16).
      
      In Amos He is the Rescuer of Israel (Amos 3:12).
      
      In Obadiah He is the Deliverer upon Mount Zion (Oba 1:17).
      
      In Jonah He is the buried and risen Saviour (compare Mt 12:40).
      
      In Micah He is the Everlasting God born in Bethlehem (Mic 5:2).
      
      In Nahum He is our Stronghold in the day of wrath (Nah 1:7).
      
      In Habakkuk He is the Anchor of our faith (Hab 2:4).
      
      In Zephaniah He is in the midst for judgment and cleansing (Zeph 3:5,15).
      
      In Haggai He is Lord of presence and power (Hag 1:13).
      
      In Zechariah He is the smitten Shepherd (Zech 13:7).
      
      In Malachi He is the Sun of Righteousness (Mal 4:2).

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         Lady Guinevereposted 14 years agoin reply to this

         So many of these can be mis-interpreted to mean that is is Jesus, but the actual likelyhood is shady at best.  For one women don't have seed, med do and that is sperm.  Women have eggs and they are born with all the eggs they will ever need and then some for their entire lives.  That's just one.

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   earnestshubposted 14 years ago

   That is a good trick, if he is still around then I guess I won't have to worry about my busted knee being fixed!
   What a pile!

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   Highvoltagewriterposted 14 years ago

   the Bible also says that "every eye shell see him" I do not believe that we have missed the return of Christ...but I do believe it may be real soon!

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      earnestshubposted 14 years agoin reply to this

      In the bible it says a lot of things, this amongst them.
      Are you sure you have the right belief out of the thousands of religions?
      
      If a man still prophesies, his parents, father and mother, shall say to him, "You shall not live, because you have spoken a lie in the name of the Lord." When he prophesies, his parents, father and mother, shall thrust him through.   (Zechariah 13:3 NAB)
      

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         Jeramiposted 14 years agoin reply to this

         I believe that Zechariah prophesied around 500 BC and the Lord was saying that he was not sending any more prophets until the arival of the messiah. Anyone prophesing to be a prophet were false prophets. As they say in the hills... 
         "kill it before it grows".

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      Jeramiposted 14 years agoin reply to this

          I wonder; if the second coming of Christ were to happen today and every eye saw this take place, I wonder what will be said about this having occurred a thousand years or more from now. Will there be any records of this event having taken place a thousand or more years from now. Especially if the world goes through the same kinds of "Dark ages" or has a religious body gathering all of these documents and hiding them from public knowledge. If the second coming were to take place today would the people a thousand years from now still waiting for his second coming?
          Maybe we should start a thread about this and see what everyone thinks would happen over the next 1000 years if the second coming were to take place today.

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   earnestshubposted 14 years ago

   Nice! Set up a false belief system, then persecute those who do not follow it. Much easier to sell the ignorant of the times.

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      lyricsingrayposted 14 years agoin reply to this

      

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    earnestshubposted 14 years ago

    One would need to believe he came the first time!

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       Jeramiposted 14 years agoin reply to this

           This is a hypothetical question in the first place so it would not hurt anything for you to hypothetically say that there was a Christ and he came back today, What would the next 1000 plus years be like??

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          earnestshubposted 14 years agoin reply to this

          OK I can go with a hypothetical
          If JC did come back I believe he would be murdered by some fundy who reckons he is the antichrist.

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             marcofratelliposted 14 years agoin reply to this

             Earnest! How are you mate? I see you're still ruffling the feathers here! LOL. I actually thought about the possibility of that happening. There will have to be some undeniable, unquestionable event or proof or miracle to get the masses to believe I think...

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                earnestshubposted 14 years agoin reply to this

                Hi Marco! Long time no limerick! Nice to see you.

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                   marcofratelliposted 14 years agoin reply to this

                   Yeah I know...might have to fix that soon!

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             Lady Guinevereposted 14 years agoin reply to this

             YES!!

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                thetruthhurts2009posted 14 years agoin reply to this

                No.

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                   earnestshubposted 14 years agoin reply to this

                   Oh yes he would! Read these forums!
                   
                   Not too much independent thinking!

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             Jeramiposted 14 years agoin reply to this

             @ earnist   Thanks for the reply ..  If he came again to walk the earth and teach i am sure that someone would kill him. as the anti-Christ.
               If Jesus's second coming were to take place as they antisipate. Christians can believe that hundreds of thousands of people could vanish into thin air; and that the powers that be would come up with all kinds of theories other than the truth to explain this event away. They can believe that a cover up would take place. If it were to happen today, a thousand years later there would be no historical record of it having taken place. We can believe that that could happen in the future.
                  Why is it so hard for Christians to believe that this scenario may have  already  happened?

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                earnestshubposted 14 years agoin reply to this

                Religious thinking is by nature selective. No one want's to own the OT except the jews!

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                   Jeramiposted 14 years agoin reply to this

                     I will take the OT first and foremost.

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                      earnestshubposted 14 years agoin reply to this

                      I can see that Jeremi, a more honest approach. I do wonder how you cope with all the fear mongering.

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                         Jeramiposted 14 years agoin reply to this

                            Fear mongers live in their own fear. like a phone; it doesn't have a constitutional right to be answered. Fear monger wants to give some of it, I do not have to take it.

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                            earnestshubposted 14 years agoin reply to this

                            How do you deal with the hate filled text Jeremi?

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                               Jeramiposted 14 years agoin reply to this

                                   The hate filled text?   Like when moses looked over the mountain and God instructed the Israelites to invade and kill every living soul?   
                                    I don't know if I would call that hate. Maybe indifference. I don't understand it completely 
                                   If they did not do what they did, they would have never had a home. It was the Israelites home first. They left it empty and someone else moved in while they were gone. I don't know all of the details but somebody had to die; either the Israelites starving in the desert or the current occupants, the way that they did. We were all born with one destination and that is to die. There is something on the other side of this life. Does it really mater when we get there?  I fear the pain before death more than I do death. This is too broad of an question than a few paragraphs can answer.
                                  Maybe I should write a hub about it. Doing so might reveal a few questions for me that I haven't thought about yet.

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                                  earnestshubposted 14 years agoin reply to this

                                  That is one example, though I doubt the logic would hold across the literally thousands of psychotic texts.
                                  I do not have a view on an afterlife other than to say I don't know anyone who has survived death and come back to tell us about it. The mind that is part of consciousness certainly dies.

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                                     wesleyacarterposted 14 years agoin reply to this

                                     why do you refer to people who follow religion/[religious texts] as psychotic?
                                     
                                     isn't your consistent and unflinching attack on common faith not by way of a similar thought process to a person of faith?
                                     
                                     how are you so sure death is so final?

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                                     Jeramiposted 14 years agoin reply to this

                                        I wouldlike to see a list of the hate filled text that you are talking about. Just Chapter and verse will do.
                                         I do not intend to sound challenging but truley curious.
                                          Maybe I could write a hub about it and also learn something while I am doing it.

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    moanalisaposted 14 years ago

    I have to wonder, if religion were not in your lives, at what point, would you all wake up and take self-responsibility for your own life?

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       Jeramiposted 14 years agoin reply to this

          Religion is not what it wants us to think. My Faith in God
       does not relinquish my responsibility for my actions. I have to suffer my own consequences.

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          moanalisaposted 14 years agoin reply to this

          That is perhaps the most intelligent thing I've read thus far. Thank you!

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             earnestshubposted 14 years agoin reply to this

             I concur, if responsibility is taken for self, that has to be a good thing!

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          Lady Guinevereposted 14 years agoin reply to this

          Karma!

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    Jeramiposted 14 years ago

    Lady Guinevere wrote:
       If one sits down and reads that and then reads the parts about when Satans was cast out of Heaven you will see a certain kind of timeline and then you will realize that John saw the War in heaven
    
    
      Jerami said...  There is indeed a timeline established throughout end time prophesy.  It is established in 538 BC when Gabriel said that in 62 weeks they are going to kill the Messiah. In 26, 30 or 33 AD  they did. Daniel 9:25 & 26.
      Approx 567 years pass on earth during Gabriel's 62 weeks.
    With this information the time lines are understood.

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       moanalisaposted 14 years agoin reply to this

       Mythical peoples, from what I understand, unless you have proof?

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          Jeramiposted 14 years agoin reply to this

             I have proof of nothing except for the proof that religion has not been teaching some things that are written in their own scriptures.

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             earnestshubposted 14 years agoin reply to this

             I have respect for your consistency, even if I do not agree. I have never seen you lie to win a point.
             
             I do not think that you deliberately twisted Lady G's words, but can understand why she thinks so.

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       Lady Guinevereposted 14 years agoin reply to this

       Twisting my words.  That is NOT what I said.  Not at all.

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          Jeramiposted 14 years agoin reply to this

              I do not know how I missed this post earlier. I did not intend to twist your words nor see in which way that I did. I was simply agreeing with this part in particular. was not agreeing nor agreeing the rest of your post.
              but I do apologize if I did change the apearence of  meaning of your statement.

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    earnestshubposted 14 years ago

    ... while those who are born into poverty and abuse are ignored.... sure. I have a bridge for sale....

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       aguasilverposted 14 years agoin reply to this

       Who are you posting to?
       
       ...and you keep hammering this "poverty and abuse are ignored" thing, so I will not reply yet again explaining why that is, you seem to want to put ALL the worlds ills on Christ and His followers, whilst ignoring the fact that 75% of the world are not Christian in any way shape or form.
       
       I would warrant that the 25% of believers have done more to assist those who live in poverty and are abused than the 75% who do not believe.

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          earnestshubposted 14 years agoin reply to this

          aqua, I have seen many stats for how many religionists there are on the planet, and according to one of your fellow posters there are only about one billion non believers.
          I guess the state the world is is has to do with something here, but feel free to tell me where you got the stats and I will look. Always willing to learn.
          The poverty and abuse that I am flogging, ( I do not recall putting these two words together before)is taking place while religionists claim god is looking after THEM, finding their car keys, fixing their health etc. Such a god can go rot in it's own hell as far as I'm concerned, I would not worship a god like that! Either he is here helping or he's not. I go with not.

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             Davidsonofjesieposted 14 years agoin reply to this

             I cant believe you smile in your photo you seem so sad!!!

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       thetruthhurts2009posted 14 years agoin reply to this

       You evangelical atheist are so inconsistent it's funny.
       
       http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P9b0PJDDof4

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          Make Moneyposted 14 years agoin reply to this

          Wow thanks thetruthhurts2009.  What a cool speech by Ravi Zacharias.  He ends with this poem by Annie Johnson Flint.
          
          HE GIVETH MORE GRACE
          
          He giveth more grace when the burdens grow greater,
          He sendeth more strength when the labors increase;
          To added affliction He addeth His mercy,
          To multiplied trials, His multiplied peace.
          
          When we have exhausted our store of endurance,
          When our strength has failed ere the day is half done,
          When we reach the end of our hoarded resources,
          Our Father's full giving is only begun.
          
          His love has no limit, His grace has no measure;
          His power no boundary known unto men;
          For out of His infinite riches in Jesus
          He giveth and giveth and giveth again.

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    earnestshubposted 14 years ago

    It is so much simpler than that. The whole bible is a crock!

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    Lady Guinevereposted 14 years ago

    You have not read it then earnest.

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       earnestshubposted 14 years agoin reply to this

       Not so Lady G. Just arrived eventually at a different conclusion.
       Maybe I overstated that a bit. There are good instructions in the  NT and some wonderful and beautiful prose in the OT.
       The problem is it also clearly shows the neurotic thought processes that "inspired" it.

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          Davidsonofjesieposted 14 years agoin reply to this

          I can see you are educated,its a shame you have no wisdom

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    earnestshubposted 14 years ago

    Would you like some examples of what is believed from the OT? I post them a lot.
    I do not believe because there is much evidence to the contrary, religion makes people hate others even though the only sources of their beliefs are the same, most of which is stolen from pagan systems then fobbed off as the word of some invisible sky fairy.
    Then the book about this impossible entity threatens anyone who does not believe in it.
    Not too hard to see is it?

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       wesleyacarterposted 14 years agoin reply to this

       does it really threaten you? how?
       
       it seems more like religion has made you hate "religionists". (I still think that word is retarded). Do you think that they hate you?
       
       Did you read this evidence? Or see it with your own eyes? What kind of evidence?

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          earnestshubposted 14 years agoin reply to this

          Give me a break Wesley! You do not know how scientific method works? I told you I don't do hate. Religion threaten me now? I think not, but I do not want my kids growing up on this hateful shtick.
          
          
          Religion IS ignorance, worse it is ignorance by choice. lol

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             wesleyacarterposted 14 years agoin reply to this

             Yes I do know how scientific method works. But you are dodging the real questions here.
             
             you think religion threatens you because it threatens to do harm to your children one way or another. Calling religion ignorance - that sounds hateful. How do you know everyone who believes believes by choice?

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                earnestshubposted 14 years agoin reply to this

                Any person who can read the bible can at least read can't they?The bible is not verifiable so it cannot be falsified so scientific methods of understanding do not apply. They do apply to science though.

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                   wesleyacarterposted 14 years agoin reply to this

                   why would you use science to prove religion? scientific method to prove science makes sense. Science doesn't unearth the unknown, it only measures the unmeasured. Science is nothing but a tool for measurement. Once something is measured, that information can be used to benefit or destroy.
                   
                   religious value is based on what can not be measured. a person's faith, the work of God or the absence thereof. Doesn't it seem foolish to compare the two and expect a similar method to greet them with?
                   
                   they are not similar. they are barely even opposites. We all know this. you keep dodging this issue.
                   
                   Why do you believe in science? Other than the fact that it measures things?

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                      earnestshubposted 14 years agoin reply to this

                      No, you keep sliding out from under! It's OK tho, all can see what we do here.

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                         wesleyacarterposted 14 years agoin reply to this

                         well i think you are just simply unwilling or unable to answer such questions. lol

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                            earnestshubposted 14 years agoin reply to this

                            Wesley that is very disingenuous of you! You have been around long enough to have seen endless scientific postings, but as you do not believe in science, but because the fairytales tell you not to, you don't read them do you?.

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                               wesleyacarterposted 14 years agoin reply to this

                               who told you i didn't believe in science?
                               
                               and yes i've read your postings. they contain very little about what you believe, or why you believe it, which is why sometimes they lack substance to me. I'm here to read about YOU, not about what you've read. I'm looking for something of substance from you. Most of what I see is hate speech against religion. You are capable of much more.
                               
                               fairy tales tell great moral stories, but I don't read those too often anymore.
                               
                               there is nothing disingenuous about me my friend, accept my boasting of my skills as billiards.

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                                  earnestshubposted 14 years agoin reply to this

                                  Not just my postings, others here have good scientific grounding too. We all gave up when not one single link had a comment about the science.
                                  Well at least I know those of us who have been here a while like Mark Knowles do not bother any more.
                                  
                                  It takes little effort to watch and listen to internationally acclaimed science lectures such as the ones I have provided numerous times.

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                                     wesleyacarterposted 14 years agoin reply to this

                                     well it's a shame. you should always bother. hopefully i'll see more from you and others in the future.

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                                        earnestshubposted 14 years agoin reply to this

                                        It may be time to drag up an old posting asking me why I am on these threads! Or to ask you again about the third person, then "good ole Earnest" followed by the other jibe.
                                        Anyone home?

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                                           wesleyacarterposted 14 years agoin reply to this

                                           you gotta ease up. you ever heard of the physical, mental and spiritual effects of smoking medicinal marijuana? (ie. you should smoke a joint or something).
                                           
                                           haha, the third person thing really bothers you doesn't it?

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                                              earnestshubposted 14 years agoin reply to this

                                              No Wesley, I am just concerned for your mental health.

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                                                 wesleyacarterposted 14 years agoin reply to this

                                                 haha! i know. how crazy is it to spend so much time arguing with you. it must b some type of psychosis.
                                                 
                                                 and yes, it does bother you. obviously.

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                                                    earnestshubposted 14 years agoin reply to this

                                                    OK Wesley, but in truth I am just having some rest time while I wait for my vegetables to grow on farmville.
                                                    Does this sound like a commandment or a request to a free spirit??
                                                    
                                                    Commandment, Exodus 20:3 “Thou shalt have no other gods before me”.  Old Testament punishment - Deuteronomy 17:1-5 “And hath gone and served other gods, and worshipped them, either the sun, or moon, or any of the host of heavens, which I have not commanded.  Then shalt thou bring forth that man or that woman, which have committed that wicked thing and shalt stone them with stones, till they die”.  Deuteronomy 13:6-10, “If thy brother, the son of thy mother, or thy son, or thy daughter, or the wife of thy bosom, or thy friend, which is of thine own soul, entice thee secretly, saying, Let us go and serve other gods, which thou hast not known, thou, nor thy fathers; Thou shalt not consent unto him, nor hearken unto him; neither shall thine eye pity him, neither shalt thou spare, neither shalt thou conceal him: But thou shalt surely kill him; thine hand shall be first upon him to put him to death, and afterwards the hand of all the people.  Thou shalt stone him with stones, that he die; because he hath sought to thrust thee away from the Lord thy God."  Exodus 22:20 “He that sacrificeth unto any god, save unto the Lord only, he shall be utterly destroyed”.  New Testament punishment - Mark 16:16 “He that believeth not, shall be damned

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                                                       wesleyacarterposted 14 years agoin reply to this

                                                       they sound like coercive suggestions from one human being to the next to be honest. written by a man, just like my Natural Science book in high school was.
                                                       
                                                       to a christian growing up in hostile Western Europe, they would be commandments.
                                                       
                                                       In today's society, they sound like requests to a free spirit.
                                                       
                                                       The Times and the intentions play a huge factor in this book.

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                      moanalisaposted 14 years agoin reply to this

                      So that explains what "blind faith" is. Thank you.

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    Beth100posted 14 years ago

    Hey Earnest!  Knew I would catch ya here!  Happy New Year!!!

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       earnestshubposted 14 years agoin reply to this

       Happy new year Beth!!!

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          Beth100posted 14 years agoin reply to this

          Catch ya again later some time!  Have a ton of fun...but don't get banned by the ban-dits!! 

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             earnestshubposted 14 years agoin reply to this

             Thanks Beth. It has not happened in 16 months, so there may be some chance.

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                Beth100posted 14 years agoin reply to this

                Well, if you disappear, I'll know why!  Maybe it'll be me    Ciao!

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                   earnestshubposted 14 years agoin reply to this

                   Ciao Beth.

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    earnestshubposted 14 years ago

    Yes they have all been watered down to be acceptable to modern thinking.

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       wesleyacarterposted 14 years agoin reply to this

       i think we've made a break through Earnest.
       
       we agree on something.
       
       will science ever become "watered down" to justify and enable modern thinking? do you think?

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          earnestshubposted 14 years agoin reply to this

          I would suggest that would be harder to accomplish as time goes on. As long as science continues on the assumption that it may be wrong about everything and anything, we will get strong science.

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    Onusonusposted 14 years ago

    Not a single miracle can be performed without the aid of the Holy Spirit. Men saw the face of Stephen transfigured before them and yet they persisted in stoning him to death, David slew Goliath so that all the world would know there is a God in Israel. There have always been miracles performed by prophets and apostles, some believed and some did not.
    
    When someone who is afraid of heights decides to conquer their fears by jumping out of an airplane the fear doesn’t leave them before they jump, they have to jump first, then their fear goes away.
    The same goes for the witnessing of miracles, you can’t accept the miracle until you have faith first. Trying to accept the concept of God or miracles without faith is pointless and abhorrent.

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       (Q)posted 14 years agoin reply to this

       Then, when you've accepted miracles on faith, you can jump out of an airplane without a parachute to see if those miracles will hold, despite the reality of gravity.

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       Lady Guinevereposted 14 years agoin reply to this

       And who judges that faith and that miracle?

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          Onusonusposted 14 years agoin reply to this

          Why, God of course!

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             Lady Guinevereposted 14 years agoin reply to this

             Not people then, nor clergy or anyone who claims to have more closeness to that GOD?  Hmmm not the kind of thing that I have experienced ro had knowledge of.
             God works through EVERYTHING and EVERYBODY weather they be in a religion or even believers.  So whose to tell one other or others which is that of GOD.  Does GOD need OUR approval fo the things that which he does?

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                Onusonusposted 14 years agoin reply to this

                Only God can Judge what our faith is, or "see what's on the inside" so to speak. I don't know why you would think that God needs our approval to do anything, (I don't remember implying that, and if I did I certainly apologize for lending you that notion.) The miracle would be there for all people to judge, but the truth is something that is yet to be determined. For instance I think OJ did it, and some people don't, but we will not know for sure until the apocalypse!

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                   Lady Guinevereposted 14 years agoin reply to this

                   I asked the question of you and yours like you, not that I belived that.  People don't and cannot judge anything but then again you said that first then turned around and said that they can.  Circle logic?  There is not going to be an apocalypse, it already happened.  Read your bible.

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                      Onusonusposted 14 years agoin reply to this

                      I never said people could not judge miracles, it's realy left up to the individual on wether they believe in a miracle or not wouldn't you agree? Anyways I believe that there will be an apocalypse or "unveiling" as the origin of the word goes, does it realy matter? All doctrinal ephemra asside, a personal relationship with God is what's important to me.

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                         (Q)posted 14 years agoin reply to this

                         Doom, gloom and selfishness. Sounds like a great religion, where do I sign up?

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                            Onusonusposted 14 years agoin reply to this

                            You realy had to scrape for that one. Weak!!!!!!!!!!!

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                               (Q)posted 14 years agoin reply to this

                               They're your words and your beliefs.

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                                  Onusonusposted 14 years agoin reply to this

                                  Most positivly they are, and undoubtedly in the golden age of socioty somebody complained that everything looked too yellow.

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    getitriteposted 14 years ago

    It seems that even the most delusional religionist, in most cases, knows when to let reason step in.

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    Onusonusposted 14 years ago

    Miracles are a response to faith, and should not be regarded as deviations from the natural course of nature as much as they should be regarded as manifestations of the divine nature of Christ. They are never complete without prayer, and faith. If miracles cease, it is because faith has ceased.

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    neysajasperposted 14 years ago

    Many miracles happened during the time if Jesus Christ .. but It is regardless to say that miracles happened in his tenure only,, many other incredible things happened during others time as well.. as mentioned above..

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    Jeramiposted 14 years ago

    Lady Guinevere wrote:
    There is a simple cause of the Bubonic Plague and it wasn't a curse or a miracle, just stupidity of the people.  The plague was caused by the people bringin over the FLEAS n the RATS in their ships all over the world.  That wasn't any judgement, but Cause and effect
    
      Jerami wrote:
      You are correct. This was a natural occurrence. I think that all of the judgments passed down by God can be explained through actions of Nature.
       I was watching a program of the history channel that scientifically explained how the plagues inflicted upon the Egyptians could have occurred through the events brought about by Nature. This does not mean that God did not set those forces into motion.

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