So, if the people on earth were Pagan before Christ ever got here, where did they go? Heaven or Hell? What if they never heard the name of Jesus or knew about the Jewish faith, is that fair to send them all to Hell?
This would take an involved sermon to really explain. I'm not up to that right now. (But maybe some other Christian is...)
My short answer is that God gives or has given everyone (past, present, future) the opportunity to choose between Him and the adversary. Some people interpret 1Peter 3: 19-22 to mean that Jesus went into the underworld and gave those pagans/unbelievers who were pre-flood the opportunity to accept Him as the risen Savior. Others use the examples of Abraham and Moses, etc., to show that God judged those who died before Jesus's time by their Faith instead of born-again status (since God did reveal Himself in those days also, just not in the manifestation of Jesus).
I think both interpretations have merit, but haven't studied this enough to make a specific claim either way or both ways. All I know is that the Bible tells us God is Love, period (Godly Love) and He judges the hearts of man as to whether or not they Love Him.
I believe that since Jesus's death and resurrection here on earth, the window of opportunity for all people is only open while they're alive. Everyone has that opportunity to choose Him or reject Him. You have that opportunity. You've heard about Jesus's sacrifice for you. You have the opportunity right now to choose Him or to continue choosing paganism/unbelief.
If that window, since Christs death, is only open during that persons lifespan that leaves the majority of earths residents since that time without the ability to enter Heaven.
There were a VERY large number of people throughout the world that never heard of Him. The entire western hemisphere until the 1500's for example and even then it was only a relative handful that Christian missionaries found. Those people are in the same boat that the OP was questioning, but they were born after Christ.
That's why God told His followers to go preach the Gospel to all Nations, all people.
Those "handfuls" of people who do become followers of Christ do pass along the message.
If there's been or will be someone who hasn't/doesn't ever get to hear the message of Christ, then like I said, I believe God will judge them according to their hearts.
"IF there has been someone..." Of course there has; before Europeans found the Americas there were no Christian missionaries anywhere in the western hemisphere and thus no gospel. Same thing for Australia - nothing but aborigines (no Christians) for millenia. Ditto for the far east. Christianity spread but slowly for a long, long time.
Your comment that all people have the opportunity to choose God wasn't true in the past and isn't true for every person even today.
That you choose to believe that these people will be judged separately, and to a different requirement that the rest of us, is fine for you. Still, it would have been nice if God had told us that there are alternative methods to enter Heaven instead of simply laying down the rule that we must believe. It is a major stumbling block for the non-believer that is searching; that God has condemned all those that His missionaries do not reach.
I didn't say God condemned them. Matter of fact, I said the opposite. And that's not an "alternative" route to Heaven. If someone is truly searching, they will find Him or He will reveal Himself to them.
The stumbling block isn't what you said.
Pagans/unbelievers stumble at Jesus, via their refusal to acknowledge His sacrifice. The Bible even tells us that.
No, you didn't say God condemned them. The bible did; it is very clear that you must believe in Jesus to be accepted. Without ever knowing or hearing of Jesus it is not possible to believe in Him. All the searching an ancient Aztec indian could do in his life will not cause a belief in the Son of God (nonexistent to him) that came to earth somewhere that did not exist (to him). Nor does God ever indicate that He will reveal himself to anyone after the time of Christ, although some people (Joseph Smith?) claim that it has happened.
You said the opposite, just as you state, but by doing so you contradict the word of God. You have decided, without any indication from God, that God's instructions need not be followed to become one of His; that "God will judge them according to their hearts" instead of whether or not His instructions are followed. I repeat myself, but you cannot love what you are not aware of.
People aren't innately unaware even if they're not "modernized"....
Romans 1: 20 says:
"For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse."
The Godhead has always existed. Father/Son/Holy Spirit are One. In the book of John, we learn that Jesus was God in the flesh and that He (Jesus/God) created all things! Just because Jesus in the flesh wasn't around during ancient Aztec days, etc., doesn't mean that God wasn't around. And as that verse in Romans tells us, creation itself (nature---animals, forests, waters, deserts, stars, moon, sun, rain, snow, even just the fact that humans exist!) tell us there is a Creator. And people have, from the beginning of time, chosen to either worship the Creator, ...or not to. Mankind is without excuse. God will judge according to man's ability to acknowledge Him. And all people have that ability (barring, of course, mental illness etc...). All are born with a conscience (barring, of course, mental incapacity etc...).
I follow you, I think.
People have indeed worshiped various gods throughout history; it would be a rare culture (if there even is one) that had little to no religion. At least a rare ancient one - many exist today where religion has fallen to a small fraction of it's old prominence.
However, belief in and worship of whatever local culture determines are the gods is a far cry from believing in Christ. Even if we declare that Christ is the same being as God He is still none of those ancient gods the indians, aborigines, aztecs or even ancient Europeans worshiped. And without external help from a Christian missionary I can't see a Viking, for instance,coming to be aware of, and believe in, Christ.
On a separate issue, I have to take exception to your comment that all people have the ability to acknowledge God. We have met on these forums before; you know me. I am a non-believer. Yes, I could acknowledge Him, but it would be empty words, without truth in them. There would be no belief. Although raised as a Christian, and in spite of hundreds or thousands of conversations about Christianity and God, I do not believe. I cannot simply suspend my rationality and believe; I am not built that way.
I did not say I would not believe; I said I cannot and I mean just that. I will, I'm sure, continue to discuss religion the rest of my life, but highly doubt that I will ever believe. I don't have that ability.
I realize that this is completely outside of your experience; outside your realm of possibility, but it is true. Just as it is true that you, Brenda Durham, will (I think) find it impossible to suspend your own belief system enough to understand and accept that your God created me to fail. To be utterly unable to believe in the "impossible".
Or perhaps I'm mentally ill; a peculiar illness that we don't as yet recognize as a society. Even then, though, I do not believe and will not be admitted to Heaven. I don't think much of that argumen; it is too glib, too easy and is too obviously a rationalization to get around the words and intent of God.
you're right about one thing--- I don't believe God created you to fail. That's not because it's out of the realm of my imagination (or "possibility" as you put it). It's because it's outside the word of the Lord, outside His Love. God is knowable, and He revealed Himself to us in page after page of Scripture. Not to mention, even, the Holy Spirit's ability to commune with us.
There's Scripture where the Apostle Paul tried to show a city of pagans that their "unknown God" was God Himself, but that they were worshipping without being able to understand.....
What is God, what was Jesus's sacrifice even for, if not Love that gives Hope to the world? He wouldn't create you to fall through unbelief. The Bible says mankind was created for His pleasure. It doesn't give Him any pleasure to know that someone is fixed in unbelief.
This is....food for a long discussion, but I don't wanna hog this thread.
Actually, we are on topic - what happens to those that didn't meet Christ.
You reinforce my comment that the idea of being created to fail is outside of your reality. Yes, you can imagine such a thing but only in the way you can imagine a unicorn, or a dragon. An interesting concept, perhaps, but not something that can actually happen. Keep in mind that that is exactly how I think of God.
God revealed Himself to you through scripture, but what scripture reveals to me is only ignorance and lies. There is no God there, anymore than there is a God revealed by those that preach those lies and imaginings. I don't (can't) read scripture to reinforce my belief, but to question it, to try and understand what was meant and why it was written. What I come up with is only ridiculous meanderings, myths and obvious falsehoods, not God.
Nor has the Holy Spirit ever communed with me. My conscience often speaks to me, just as yours does to you, but that is all that it is - my own sense of right and wrong that I constructed myself. The very idea that it could be a Holy Spirit can only come from belief, and that is missing.
You are more than willing to ascribe attributes to God ("It doesn't give Him any pleasure to know that someone is fixed in unbelief") that you have no idea is true or not but that fits with your belief, but I cannot. While I can imagine a Supreme Being I have no idea at all what it might or might not enjoy. Such a creature would necessarily be so different than I am that no possible imagining could ever be taken for fact. It is a difference at the very root and basis of our respective thinking and reasoning processes and is why I cannot believe.
But what if they called the "Creator" a different name?
That's one of the best arguments against Christianity being the only way to God that I've seen. I'm surprised it was posted by a Christian. I like it.
Brenda says a lot that turns decent people away from Christianity. Which she doesn't mind...more Christianity for her.
Your response shows your determination to twist the Word.
It wasn't saying there are other ways to God besides Christianity. It was showing the amazing depth of God's mercy toward those who hadn't heard the Gospel, AND those people's responsibility to attribute all of creation to the Creator.
Since you liked that so well, you'll love Paul's sermon to the Greeks.
Acts 17: 22-31:
22 "Then Paul stood in the midst of Mars' hill, and said, Ye men of Athens, I perceive that in all things ye are too superstitious.
23 For as I passed by, and beheld your devotions, I found an altar with this inscription, TO THE UNKNOWN GOD. Whom therefore ye ignorantly worship, him declare I unto you.
24 God that made the world and all things therein, seeing that he is Lord of heaven and earth, dwelleth not in temples made with hands;
25 Neither is worshipped with men's hands, as though he needed any thing, seeing he giveth to all life, and breath, and all things;
26 And hath made of one blood all nations of men for to dwell on all the face of the earth, and hath determined the times before appointed, and the bounds of their habitation;
27 That they should seek the Lord, if haply they might feel after him, and find him, though he be not far from every one of us:
28 For in him we live, and move, and have our being; as certain also of your own poets have said, For we are also his offspring.
29 Forasmuch then as we are the offspring of God, we ought not to think that the Godhead is like unto gold, or silver, or stone, graven by art and man's device.
30 And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent:
31 Because he hath appointed a day, in the which he will judge the world in righteousness by that man whom he hath ordained; whereof he hath given assurance unto all men, in that he hath raised him from the dead."
One of three things happened...
One. They converted to one of the other religions, either by choice or force.
Two. They went into hiding.
Three. They were killed for not converting.
And well...There are still debates about Heaven and Hell's actual existance.
There is a theory that some might have made it to Valhala and others to Mount Olympus. But who knows.
Nobody goes to Hell, it is written in the Bible and nobody goes to heaven we go back to the earth until resurrection. So all of those who are Pagan are merely sleeping until resurrection and will be given the opportunity to decide when Jesus comes back. If they did not know of God then they really couldn't go anywhere.
Heaven: John 3:13 And no man has gone to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the son of man which is in heaven.
John 3:13(NIV) No man has gone into heaven except the one who came from heaven-the Son of Man.
Sad thing is many Christians including me only listened to what we were taught and did not read the word. Now that I have read it on my own my perception is completely different.
These verses which you mentioned were written around 50 AD. At that time ; what this says was true.
I can honestly say on this september 7, 2011; that I have never taken heroin or crack. This is true today!
If I take these drugs 10 years from now, that previous statement would still be true.
I believe what we call the Rapture happened around 138 AD ... And the first resurection around 900 AD.
and the 42 months of the beast will be finished sometime between now and 2015.
- - - - - -
kittythedreamer ; no I'm not saying that at all.
I believe that when we die, we do go to heaven (Imediately) because the 2nd resurection has already happened.
Minor correction for the date of when the Book of John was written. It was written between 90-95 CE, The Pauline Letters were written between 50-62 CE.
Sorry to intrude on your conversation.
Sorry again about my periods of absence after posting. I still my problems and now friends an family are loosing their houses in these forest fires in Texas.
From my front porch; I've been watching the smoke clouds rising.
Anyway? I guess I messed up with, when John was written.
I have read a couple of scollars mention that none of the gospels mention the destruction of the temple, and for this reason they thought they were all written before ,,, anyway, I guess I was jumping to the same conclusions and agreeing with this train of thought.
When christ comes back "every eye will see him"... did every eye see him? Did he set up New Jerusalem as described in revelation 21? Have the jews accepted christ into their hearts as a nation?
Christ has not come back yet, the resurrections have not occurred. The wound that was healed was not napoleonic. The events of revelation have a starting point, they did not start as soon as john saw the revelations.
Revelation 1:19 Write the things which thou hast seen, and the things which are, and the things which shall be hereafter (3 categories)
Was that a 7th day adventist teaching?
Every eye shall see him and yet ... he shall come like a thief in the night?
When a thief comes in the night, he comes, gets what he wants and is gone.
This is the problem?
We assume that Daniel 9:26 is referring to the second coming.
We also assume that the rapture and the first resurrection are to happen at the same time. That isn't what the bible actually says!
In Revelations. when Jesus arrives in heaven, looking like a lamb all bloody as if it had just been slain the Lamb; he immediately takes the book and BEGINS opening the seals.
To me; this indicates that the four horsemen were sent down to the earth forty days after the crucifixion.
After the 6th seal was opened, there was a great number seen before the throne. We assume this is talking about the first resurrection; it doesn't say that it!
AND when the 7th seal is opened, there is silence in heaven for half an hour indicating a chronological order being established.
At some time AFTER the opening of the seals are complete (after this), the trumpet judgments are handed out.
It is after the sounding of the sixth trumpet that the events in Chapter 14 is described.
It is after the sixth seal is opened that the first resurrection happened.
And then; the bowl judgments are handed out.
Sorry folks; the first resurrection HAS already passed us by. We missed it!
We are waiting for the second resurrection!
When the 7th trumpet and 7th bowl is poured out, THEN "The end of prophesy" will have come Then the New Jerusalem will come down to the earth.
It is VERY important to understand the chronological order of prophesy "IF" we are attempting to understand them.
The damned are all sent to Chicago to become Cubs fans...
not really Hell, but close to it
Pagans are before excess and profit. After excess and profit nature is no longer prohibitive to need, so there comes rules for behavior - carrot and stick.
If we are going to use the Bible for this the answer is they aren't in heaven or hell and to go one step further no human being that has died is in heaven not Moses not Abraham or any of the Apostle see according to the bible when we die we die we are in the ground awaiting the resurrection because if when we die we go to heaven what would be the purpose of the second coming and our resurrection it would be for nothing because we are already in heaven . The myth of us going to heaven after death is just another false doctrine taught in many churches around the world. If people would read the bible for themselves they would know that the Creator never promised us heaven he promised eternal life to those that obey him . Now for the Jewish faith anything outside of the Old testament is man made doctrine like the Talmud that is not the word of our heavenly Father and most of Judaism is more tradition than the word of God .
Wow...that sounds like atheism mixed with Christianity...
That sounds like a JW to me. I wouldn't worry about it. If there's an afterlife, that involves a deity, I'm sure that deity will have matured enough to put our puny mortal transgressions into perspective. Outside of Christianity and Islam, mankind is mature enough to get it. Any deity would surely be wiser than us.
What you say is true "IF"
"IF" the second coming hasn't happened yet?
"IF" Jesus didn't mean what he said?
"THIS generation shall not pass till ALL these things be fulfilled".
WHY would Jesus be telling Peter, James and John and Andrew about things that will not happen for another 2000 years? He wouldn't!
In Matthew 23:24, Jesus was telling the Pharisees; "behold I send unto you prophets, and wise men,and scribes, and some of them Ye shall kill and crucify, and some of them shall Ye scourge in your synagogues, and persecute them from city to city".
And just a few moments later (in chapter 24) the disciples ask Jesus;
"When will these things be"?
Jesus then told these four disciples: 24:9 THEN shall they deliver YOU up to be afflicted, and shall kill you.
Everything that Jesus describes in this chapter did happen during the first century.
And that Hebrew Nation that all of the OT prophesy was given to, ceased to exist around 138 AD.
It stands to reason that all promises that were made to that nation would have come to pass before that Nation ceases to exist?
"IF" we are to believe that Jesus meant exactly what he said? ...
We have to believe that the second coming has already happened.
And "IF" we do that! ... Most of the controversy concerning prophesy would just go away.
A common view among Christians and Muslims. Unfortunately, Judaism has moved beyond your understanding of it. The Jews that only use "the Old Testament" (Written Law) are called Karaites; there are about 40,000 left of them on the planet.
Well said AEvans until I read the bible myself I truly believed that when we die we go to heaven or hell , I believed the story of the 3 wise men and actually thought Noah only took two of each animal (male and female) on the ark but when I really read it I discovered that the bible never says anything about three wise men it talks about the three gifts that were given by the wise men, and if you read about Hell you will find out that the punishment for sin is death and at the resurrection those that don't get rewarded with eternal life will die the second death which is permanent people aren't going to burn in Hell forever they will be destroyed forever meaning they won't exist in any form at all . And the story about Noah he actually took seven of each clean animal male and female, two of each unclean animal and seven of each bird male and female . And if you ask the average person that goes to church who appeared to Moses at the burning bush and most will say God but if you read the scriptures it says an Angel appeared, the bible is very clear when you actually read it
Yes, it is very clear. God put a planet sized ball of water onto the earth without changing its angular momentum, killed every animal not macroscopic in size and local to Noah as well as every piece of plant life along with all the fish, coral, kelp and all other sea and fresh water life. It is why we no longer see kangaroos, penguins and amoebas.
It is a very good thing that we do not have to interpret the bible or make assumptions about what happened. If it were not so we would certainly have many different opinions about what it really says.
@kittythedreamer what did I say to you that sounded like Atheism or could confused with it?
KittyTheDreamer, who said they were all "pagan?"
The Nazarene teacher said that the kingdom of heaven is within us. All it takes is a decision. But we are all too attached to the things of this world. It's a bit like trying to scratch an itch that you cannot reach, or don't know how to reach.
Where did they all go (those in the BC era)? My guess: likely neither, for the most part. A small few, like Enoch, Elijah (Elias), Moses and Gautama Siddhartha likely found heaven before they died. Then, when they died, they possessed the continuity of consciousness only possible with spiritual wakefulness (the definition of "everlasting life"). Then, Homo sapiens bodies were no longer needed for them. No need to reincarnate.
The rest of us? Stuck in what the Buddhists call "samsara" (suffering of mortal existence) -- living in the Newtonian, action-reaction world of ego and karma.
I'm thinking "hell" comes later, when the rescue mission pulls up stakes and leaves with only those who decided to go to heaven. Those who will be undecided or against heaven will be left behind for the "default" position, hell. I'm only hoping I get it right before that day. Liking the idea of heaven and "Deciding" on heaven are two entirely different things.
That's my take on it now, but my research continues. For a better answer, ask me in another 60 years, if I still have this body.
Kitty: before Christ there was still grace, and there was still faith. Read Romans 4. God counted Abraham's faith which was displayed by His obedience in several instances to God's instruction. The Bible clearly states that God counted it to him (Abraham) for righteousness. In other words, he was justified by his faith which is the exact same thing that God does for those of us post-Christ who believe in Christ vicarious sacrifice for the penalty of our sin.
Im not going to address the other issues raised in this post because they do not relate to your question. But, I will say this, they are in what we know today as heaven although their bodies are in the ground.
Wow. It always amazes me how these kinds of questions come up. There is no simple answer for the question you are asking. Firstly the Greek word used for "generation" means an "age" or era. The end times began at Jesus crucifixion and so what Jesus was telling His diciples was for all His disciples which we are if we follow Him.
Jesus would tell His disciples about things that would happen 2000 years down the road if He wanted it written about so that future generations would know about then and now.
Jesus reveals Himself to whom He chooses. Everyone has been given a choice. That choice may have been given through the ministry or it could have been through a personal experience. Matthew 11:27 * Philippians 3:15
The bible says that those who died before the flood were ministered to by Jesus after His resurrection. He is, just as the Bible says, meek and humble in spirit. He will not let anyone go to hell without making some sort of connect.
At Jesus crucifixion one of the thieves says to Jesus "Remember me when you come into your kingdom." and Jesus replies, "Truly I say that TODAY you will be with me in paradise. Think what you will about going to heaven or hell when you die. This is what the Bible says. The second death does not occur until the white throne judgment. There is controversy surrounding this also because of misinterpretation and willful thinking, but according to the Bible this judgment does not happen until the 1000 year millennium.
As far as the second death goes the Bible is quite clear on this subject also. It is not a death of nothingness. Mark 9:44,46,48
So many try to put human time on what is written in the Bible. History is useful and history repeats, but the being who inspired this is intelligent enough to put these prophesies in perspective for future generations. Jesus is outside time. 2 Peter 3:8
The spirit goes to heaven or hell it is the body in the ground that is resurrected into a glorified body. I do not have the scripture for this at this time but if any are truly intersted I can find it.
I would have stuck to the subject presented but as always these forums go in many directions.
Do you notice that six of the seals were opened AND there was a great multitude seen before the throne . these had come out of the great tribulation. AND Then ... the seventh seal is opened ..
AND Then the trumpets are handed out.
There are so many And Thens in scripture that it has to be attempting to establish a chronological order being established.
Gotta go … getting the house ready for some people to come and stay or a while … after their house burned down. So
Time is a common misconception. If you look at other books of the Bible the events are layered. Time is overlapped. It is not time that is important but events. I feel I have been led to this conclusion. It is a subject that each person must research on their own in order to see it.
When you say "research," do you mean - "make stuff up to fit with your FAITH?" I mean - what is there to research except other people's opinions?
I am a serious study. God is outside of time. He makes that plain by saying He was and is and is to come. A day is like a thousand years and a thousand years like a day. If you are truly interested in the truth of this it takes study of the entire Bible on this subject to see it. This is not something that is literally written down so that you can be taken to a specific verse.
Please stop speaking nonsense at me - it is insulting. I asked a straight question. You have no truth to offer.
Now answer the question - exactly what have you researched?
Yes God id outside of time. BUT ... those things which were prophesied are NOT.
All of the prophesy given in the book of Daniel was interpreted by Gabriel and were fulfilled in the sequential order in which they were given.
If prophesy has any value; the timeframes which they were given are of most importance or they would have NO value at all.
If a prophetic message has no relevance with time; it has no meaning ?
Such as "a terrible thing is going to happen if we go outside of our home"
WHEN? is of most importance! It does to me anyway to me.
True, we need time since it is a limit we have to grow inside. Never the less in Revelation 4:2-4 is talking about the Lamb who can open the seals but He cannot be found. This coincides with the time that Jesus was on the earth, under the earth (saving souls) and I suspect in heaven. Though He could not be followed.
The seals were broken "as the Lamb had been slain." At His crucifixion. The last thing that happened at His death was the opening of the last seal. The earthquake. These have increased in intensity and duration. I could go on? Does this make any sense to you?
That is my point exactly.
Jesus wasn't "ON" the earth or "Under it" and he wasn't "in"heaven.
I think this indicates he was in route to heaven. In between heaven and earth. And as soon as he arives in heaven he takes the book and immediately "Begins" to open the seals. Thus, establishing a timeline!
And after the seventh seal is opened, there is a space of time that passes before the trumpets are handed out. Again, establishing a sequencial time line.
I could go on, all the way through the book of Revelation, explaining exactly when each of these prophetic visions were fulfilled.
And then, and then, and then And then the first resurection, and the souls of those that had been killed for their testimoney were seen in heaven where they reigned (past tense) with Christ for 1000 years. In heaven being the key word.
Actually He was in all those places. He told Mary not to touch Him because He had not yet ascended to the Father. John 20:17 Also He appeared to many people during that period before His ascension. This is also the supposed time He ministered to those in hell.
It is relative. The sleep we go to will seem only like a moment. Can you explain the time involved in that? What happens on earth is a shadow of things to come, without the negativity. We sleep and awake. Sometimes we wonder about how quickly the night went. In a dream it may seem like an eternity, but when we wake up it has only been a few minutes.
It is the same in our waking hours.
Take two people during the course of say - three days. One of those individuals spends that three days with friends and family enjoying some acitvity. Disneyland, Ocean what ever activity they might choose to enjoy together.
The other individual finds out the first day that someone they love very dearly has lost their life to some tragedy.
When the three days are over the one having fun might wonder where the time went. While the other wondered if those days would ever end.
It is the same amount of time, yet anyone who has experienced either one of these events knows exactly what I am talking about. It is relative. The event is upper most in the minds of the individuals.
This is way off the original question. Maybe another forum?
Rev 6:1 - 7 The four horsemen .. Everything that is described in these verses did in fact happen to that Hebrew people in the first century.
There isn't a period of time mentioned for these plagues to be fulfilled within. Were they to continue until the end? I think so.
The best thing to do would be to read the bible itself to find out. You would actually find the answer there. Contrary to what many believe, the bible is not very complex or difficult to follow. People come up with their own interpretations which causes mass confusion and lead people to become discouraged in reading it. Without going into a big elaboration, the answer to your question is that those individuals DO have a chance with God. There are many people who died and did so without having the opportunity to learn about God. However, at the same time, everyone was not pagan in the world before Christ came. There were followers of God before Christ came to earth. Pagans were individuals who followed the pagan religions of the land such as Baal worship and the like. They were not individuals who did not subscribe to any religion--their religion was pagan worship. Yet even some individuals who engaged in pagan worship and did not get the opportunity to learn about God, would be given that chance by Him. All hope would not have been lost.
Where do it sez that exactly? There is only one way to heaven.
Please provide 10 examples of where the bible says it does not matter if you have accepted Jesus as Lord.
You have read this book - right?
I agree with you.
It is written that God gives faith to those that he choosed to give faith to.
I can't see God punishing those that he didn't give that faith to.
That wouldn't seem right.
But then ? I'm not God, so what do I know.
One of the reasons I prefer you to any of the other so-called christians in these threads is that you seem to be the only one who freely admits you are not god, and freely admits that you do not speak for your god.
This does not mean we have to get engaged or anything
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