The banality of secularism
Unhappily, secularism has continued its unabated march to fog the once pristine American landscape of perspicacious clarity afforded by spiritual belief.
Secularists of all stripes and color has become quite audacious to the point of insolence in propagating their insouciant disregard for truth... consequential in some quarters, but not in most where it matters, that is....in the minds of folks whose faith, leads to hope that love would conquer all.I agree that those who don’t believe in God
show we who do, a lot of disrespect that verges on harassment, and I think they always have. It’s just that the internet, and forums gives them a place to be seen, so they can ridicule us. The fact that they may influence our young people is scary.
That’s why parents have to seek the truth of God, and teach their children at home, not only in scripture, but by examples of the way they live there lives.
The real problem comes in the parents who think there is nothing more they can learn of God, and remain in, and teach, doctrine of man, not of GodTherein lies the rub... parents who are not willing to, either because of their absence from or indifference,to the lives of their children, take the cudgels to shape their spiritual lives. Oh but I forget, they themselves have no spiritual lives because they have been infected by this vapid virus called secularism i.e. "the doctrine of man" as you so succinctly stated.
The denial of the truth of the duality (material and spiritual) of human existence, is what secularism is all about. The truth that country singer Dolly Parton, know something about when she composed and sang the song titled "Jesus and Gravity". In the song, she says that Jesus lifts her spirits (spirituality) to heights she did not know existed, and gravity pulls her down back to earth to keep her grounded. God and Gravity, pretty much sounds what the renowned physicist, Stephen Hawking, was referring to when he said: if there ever is a god, he is an impersonal one... and that god is Gravity.Gravity is indeed a force from God, but it's not God.
Job 26:7
He stretcheth out the north over the empty place, and hangeth the earth upon nothing.Now you're a physicist? You actually know what gravity is! You must be the only person in the world that knows exactly what it is. A force from God! Who would of known. Now go type it up, get it peer reviewed and go collect your Nobel Prize!
As for Job 26:7, those old goat herders that never heard of an atom, though the earth was flat, and had no idea where the sun went every evening would put Stephan Hawking to shame!If there ever was a whack job in this forum, it is the above statement... pure snarky condenscension, and nothing else.
As far as the Sun, today we say the Sun is rising, and setting, even though the earth, not the sun, is doing the moving. In the Old Testament, Job 26:7 explains that the earth is suspended in space, the obvious comparison being with the spherical sun and moon.
Although I took physics, no I'm not a physicist, but I know God is not gravity, and I also KNOW he created the force
The Hebrews didn't think the Earth was flat, you are thinking of the Gentiles, Greece, India, China, America.
A spherical Earth appeared in the Greek philosophy of Pythagoras and Aristotle believed the Earth was round
The Jewish bible wrote about the Earth being a circle, which in their mind meant round, and they knew the skies circled us
Isaiah 40:22
It is he that sitteth upon the circle of the earth, and the inhabitants thereof are as grasshoppers; that stretcheth out the heavens as a curtain, and spreadeth them out as a tent to dwell in:
The Biblical Hebrew word for “circle” chuwg can also mean “round” or “sphere.”
If you look up circle it says:
circle |ˈsəːk(ə)l|
noun
1 a round figure whose boundary (the circumference) consists of ....
They that knew God, also knew the earth was round
Many people say because they speak of "the four corners of the Earth", that those in the bible thought the Earth was square
The word translated “corners,” as in the phrase above, is the Hebrew word, KANAPH. Kanaph is translated in a variety of ways. However, it generally means extremity.
It is translated “borders” in Numbers 15:38. In Ezekiel 7:2 it is translated “four corners” and again in Isaiah 11:12 “four corners.” Job 37:3 and 38:13 as “ends.”
But they meant the same thing that we mean today. which is the divisions known as "quadrants"
If you don't know what quadrant means today, it is one of four quarters of a circle. Like on a map, it would be, East, West, North, South__________________________
And this non-believer is just the same, he'd never met me before but was very rude
Modern secularism has branched into 2 camps....the soft and hard secularists. Soft secularists basically gives religionists the benefit of the doubt, and although they are mightily skeptical of religious beliefs, they are still tolerant. The hard core secularists on the other hand considers faith based beliefs as inherently unwarranted by neither reason nor experience, thus illegitimate.
Most of the secularists that are now pushing hard for their agenda belongs to the second group.... Rabid, intolerant, and specious to the point of radical delusive ness.Of course faith based beliefs are unwarranted by reason - it is a part of the definition.
Experience, though...a great deal of experience points to a god(s)...but only if there is no concerted effort to find other possibilities. Reason has failed, then, and the default is somehow a god rather than coincidence, gravity or something else. Legitimate ONLY for the believer, which is after all also a part of the definition.Coincidence.....now that is a word that I would not ever use or mention when discussing cosmological and human existence. It is certainly not a word that I would use in the same sentence that has the word God in it. Now, gravity... we should ask Stephen Hawking about that one.
As I mentioned in my answer to one of your post on this
forum, faith based beliefs come from perceptive conceptualization/intellectualization aka imagination thus reality based and tethered on pure reason.I understand that "coincidence" is an ugly word to the believer; it strongly negates most of the "proof" of a god. Nevertheless, most of our existence, both the past and the present, happens by coincidence or chance.
"conceptualization/intellectualization aka imagination" equates with reality and reason? I want some of what you've been smoking!
Imagination does not give rise to reality OR reason - simply stringing big words together in the hopes that no one will understand them doesn't work well in a community of writers.I was just wondering what your children would say or feel if they hear it from you that their appearance on earth was the result of a chance, random, coincidental, happenstance event of two humans coupling for no other reason than to satisfy their coincidental (however carnal) desire to have sex.
Sex, now that is one word that evokes coincidentality to its core. Say that to the birds my friend, and perhaps they will listen to you with such perceptive conceptualization/intellectualization that they might think you are the most rational person In the whole wide world.While you may have taught your kids that babies are delivered by a stork, sent from heaven by a god, most kids have a pretty good grasp on basic biology and genetics by the time they get to high school.
The birds and the bees just don't have the mystery they once did, even without cows and pigs to watch copulate.I was just following your lead that everything that happens on earth are coincidental....and now you are back tracking from that idea....and so fast too. Hhhmm you're kids must be reading your post.
"Nevertheless, most of our existence, both the past and the present, happens by coincidence or chance."
Find the "everything" in the statement, please? Or provide your own quote of my words indicating that?So I suppose you are saying that sex is not one of those : "most of our existence, happening by chance " kind of thing. I wonder what else you would remove from that list.
Sex - probably not. There are lots of non-coincidental things that come into play, such as pheromones, appearance, smell, etc. (although that a person has a particular appearance IS partly chance as are the others).
But meeting the person to have sex with - that's probably chance or coincidence.
Almost all of the discoveries,(scientific/philosophic or combination thereof) and subsequent humanistic distinctions thus advancement of Homo Sapiens came initially from perceptive conceptualization of ideas, that given enough intellectualization time resulted in physical realities that now pockmark our societal landscape. So yes absolutely, imagination leads to reality, more often than not, and reason/knowledge, takes a back seat.
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Why even worry about someone who can't see God. Don't allow people to harass you
If they don't know there is a God, it is hidden from them
You Christians believe in the New Testament right?
It says:
Matthew 7:6
Give not that which is holy unto the dogs, neither cast ye your pearls before swine, lest they trample them under their feet, and turn again and rend you.
It also says
Matthew 13:10
And the disciples came, and said unto him, Why speakest thou unto them in parables?
Matthew 13:13
Therefore speak I to them in parables: because they seeing see not; and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand.
There are some wise sayings in the NT, spoken in idioms of that day
Ignorant people expect to read it in today's words, and idiomsI certainly don't feel harassed, .....it is more like stunned when I realize that some of my fellow humans have not experienced anything close to spiritual, other than the ones they may feel when a small breeze touches the back of their neck on a very still, very quiet early morning or late evening....and thinking.....hmmm where did that come from.
Your understanding/interpretation of the word "imagination" is so restrictive as to be useless in this conversation.
FYI, Webster defines imagination, not solely in the context of fancy/fantasy that you seemed to be stuck on, but more generally and importantly in the context of being able to form a mental image of something not present to the senses or not previously known or experienced, thus harking back to such synonyms as creativity,, inventiveness, innovative, original.Some people are "Left Brain" people, and can't see what we "Right Brain" people see
Count it a blessingThe mind and imagination can't be seen, but it plays the "FIRST", and "FOREMOST", role in our lives.
Without our invisible minds, our world could not exist in our knowledge. We see our minds through the outward manifestations, and imaginings, and our inner personal thoughts..The mind works in the same way God works. We were created in his image.....some minds are developed higher than others. It is the mind that has to be ready to accept certain truths. No amount of teaching will ring true with anyone until they are ready
That should say "The way they live their lives" not "There lives"
OMG! The Grammar Nazi has resurfaced.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N4vf8N6GpdM
GA
If it was up these religious whack jobs, we'd be already there!
There is this notion, propagated by hard-core secularists, that secularism is a movement towards modernization. This is, to say the least, a fundamental misreading of the history of western civilization, because western civilization woul not have progressed much, to where it is now, without the anchoring benefit of religious beliefs and ideals......beliefs and ideals that secularism would have thrown asunder in an instant, if it existed and had its way during, what you call "the dark ages".
My personal view of religion is that it's an outward show of doubt, bolstering an equally deep sense of guilt and shame, brought about by listening to too many hard and fast evangelists.
Without such guilt and shame, the churches would have nothing with which to dispel the doubt. Nothing with which to raise their power over the activities of their "flock."
Real spirituality needs nothing of outward religion. It lives inwardly, amidst total personal honesty.One does not need to be religious to have a spiritual sensibility/temerity. Most religions do anchor their ideas and ideals, on spirituality, something that some folks just don't believe in or any need for, in their daily lives. To which I say, what a pity, because one important source of enriching our lives is through the perception and conceptualization, that human existence, is not entirely based on what are physically inferred by our five physical senses.
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One can be spiritual without going to church, but every spiritual person believes certain things, certain ways, or do you just mean you are without the bible?Using the sixth sense of perception allows you to peer into the world beyond the senses and feel that the power of your being is the power behind all. In other words, ESP puts you in touch with God directly.
...according to my way of understanding spirituality.__________________________
Yes, I have experienced clairvoyance, clairaudience, Clairsentience , knowing, MS, telepathy, OBEsOh. Well, one time I became one with the consciousness of my beloved rat terrier. He was healing from cancer treatments. His head was on my shoulder and suddenly I saw the world as he saw it. I understood his consciousness! From that experience I understood that Dogs see like we do but without all the complications of emotions, critical thinking, endless desires. Dogs have a a very simple straight forward awareness.
Do you have any for-instances to share?
The only part of the Bible (New Testament) that I am very familiar with and have some working knowledge of what it contains is JC's Sermon on the Mount, which to my mind basically is what Christianity is all about sans the trappings of rituals, indulgencies, and mythologies.
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Well, I don't know about we, but I think you should
How do you know that your spiritual belief is perspicacious? Given that belief has no foundation outside of feelings and wants, how do you know that it is correct and real? That it is truth?
For that is the "fog" that secularism has dispelled; the quaint notion that belief is in fact truth and has no need for any connection to reality. That individual perspective is, in fact, real despite being different for each person.You're wrong in everything you've said
Knowing God goes much deeper than believing
Believing is a Christian concept, not a Jewish oneAnd how do you "know" a god that likely isn't there? That has never spoken, never acted and exists only in your imagination? How do you "know"?
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What a rude remark this is, and you had just met me
Yet, if I think it's rude, and say so, you accuse me of having a chip
Well, it was rude of you anyway____________________________
No amount of proving would convince you, because you don't want to believe, and I told you that before. You're asking so that you can ridicule
No one would want to prove anything to a person with your attitude
Sorry I took so long, but my family has been in town to spend the holidays with me, and I've been busy
This is not to offend anyone, but because you asked
As I said, believing is a Christian concept, not a Jewish one
Take for example, what Christians "believe" about the Messiah
THE BIBLE'S JEWISH MESSIANIC CRITERIA are verifiable through observation or experience rather than belief, theory, or pure logic: "Faith" is irrelevant to the Jewish concept of the Messiah, because an individual either fulfills these prophetic criteria or he doesn't. Christianity requires faith that Jesus is their "messiah" precisely because he didn't fulfill any of the Jewish messianic criteria. Christianity's concept of faith in Jesus is therefore a substitute for this defect. It is important to note that the fulfillment of each of the six Jewish messianic criteria is verifiable by everyone, and therefore no faith is required to determine the identity of the Jewish Messiah. For example:
The entire world will be able to observe that:
1 The Temple has been rebuilt,
2 The Jewish people have returned to Israel,
3 The entire world believes in God,
4 The world is at peace.
All of which the true Messiah's will cause to happen
Virtually none of the Christian messianic "proofs" are empirically verifiable, they are "believed" to be true, but when the Jewish Messiah comes, we won't have to just "believe" it's him, because when he does arrive, the above list of things, we will all see, and know.
Until all these are fulfilled by one person, than he's not "The" Jewish MessiahCouple things before we address this subject in earnest, assuming you are open to discussion.
1) Having read some of your comments, I see you honesty so doubt you will offend me with straightforward answers. I also appreciate you candor with the trolls.
2) What Hebrew text do you use? I use the KJV.
3) What is the teaching in "Shule" today regarding the person of Jesus.
I lost my longtime Jewish friend and friendly adversary some years back so I need a catch up on things.
And I think we understand that both our Holidays will crimp timely replies.______________________________
Nice to meet you, Mishpat
When I first saw your name, I thought (hoped) you were Jewish
I wasn’t sure what you meant, but I have these bibles and extra reading materials, I study them, and interpret what it says to a group twice a month
Tanakh (Hebrew Version)
Lexicon
BHK bible (Hebrew Version)
The Orthodox Jewish Bible
The Ancient Hebrew Lexicon of the Bible
Mikraot Gedolot
Extra reading
Talmud
Masoretic Text
Septuagint, Vulgate
English Bible-KJV
Happy holidays, Christmas, and Chanukkah
I am truly sorry about your friend
Do you really want a Jewish person to speak about Yahshua,(Jesus) or what is taught in my religion about him?
I’m HasidicYes, I would like to know how Jesus is perceived in the orthodox community today, both Hasidic and Sephardic. I have not interest in the Kabbalists, reform, conservative or any other mystical or "opinion-driven" sect of Judaism which changes from situation to situation, even though they claim orthodoxy.
We have both seen the replies of the humanist, the charlatans, the mean spirited and the foolish ones that claim Christianity but do not believe the Book, so I don't think your reply will be that shocking. I would expect, from your writings, to see honest, straightforward comments not retorts generated to demand a like response, though. My only caution for you would be to be aware of the fringe readers, the "censor-police," the official ones and the self-appointed.I don't mean to offend your beliefs, and I'm sorry but no Orthodox Jew believes Jesus is the promised Messiah. If they do, they've become a Christian, that sect call themselves Messianic Jews
The Jewish Messiah is yet to comeI understand what you say. I have Jewish friends on both sides of the Cross. But there must be a position, or even a diatribe expressed, by the Hebrew theological community regarding the person of Jesus. That is what I would like to see expressed, the stance and why? Is there an actual "hatred" of Jesus today by the orthodox or is He believed to be "just another prophet" or maybe a heretic. As I said, I don't expect to hear something any worse than here on HB presented by some. But they have little or no interest in God/G-d.
To be honest, Jesus is never mentioned, and Orthodox Judaism does not hate anyone. Jewish people don’t put down the religions of other people, and they don’t even mention them. There is no place for that in a group that is formed to worship God.
Jewish belief is that the messiah has not yet come, and reject Jesus as either messiah, and deity. Jesus has never been an issue for Judaism.They recognize that he existed, or just ignore him completely?
There is nothing whatsoever about Jesus in the Hebrew Bible; therefore, Jesus is totally irrelevant to our religion. However, there may be some Jewish people who *believe* that he could have existed.
We believe nothing moreI understand it is a "non-problem" in Judaism, but wondered if the general consensus was that a man named Jesus walked around at the appropriate time. It sounds like it is not, although a few do believe that he probably did. Just not as a god or even prophet.
Do I have that right? Some believe a man was there, most do not, none think he was a god.Got it. Thanks, Deb - I've only known one Jew at all well, and he seemed kind of a "Jack Jew" if you know what I mean. Never spoke of religion, never worshiped that I knew of, etc.
Faith, it would seem, is what we both have regarding the coming of the Messiah. The Jew (if this is not an acceptable term, let me know) believes the Messiah will come and take care of things. The Christian believes the Messiah will "come again" and take care of things. The settings for each is the same though we might have to define certain issues to find the agreement.
You mentioned "six" points in your earlier comments but only listed 4. What would be the other 2? And feel free to add any of the lesser points also.____________________________________________
Of course Jewish people have faith. We have faith that God will keep his promise and send our Messiah.
Belief that a Messiah will come is different than having to believe that a certain person is the Messiah.
The six things the Jewish Messiah will do is:
1. have the correct genealogy by being
descended from King David and
King Solomon,
2. be anointed King of Israel,
3. return the Jewish People to Israel,
4. rebuild the Temple in Jerusalem,
5. bring peace to the world and end all war,
6. bring knowledge of God to the world.
If a person fails to fulfill just one, he can't be the MessiahGood morning. Regarding the Masoretic text, do we know what instruments were used to "cleanse" the Tanakh? (I am not questioning veracity.) It would seem the Talmud and Misnah and probably a couple other would be the writings. (Help me out if I am incorrect.) As to the dating of the Talmud and Misnah, might I suggest the time frames used in most regarding their history may be a bit faulty, that being, the are older than suspected. Theory, though it may be, we are allowed if we state it.
If we consider two items, we can develop a plausible theory; 1) The Torah, the tablets of stone, was in the ark when opened at the dedication of Solomon's Temple. There is no indication where the other items went but we might assume the Philistines (Palestinians) took them before the "mice" incident. 2) We have record that "records" were kept at least since David set the priestly "courses." It would seem there were at least two record keepers, scribes and recorders. These together date known Hebrew writings to at least 1000 BC (2758?) which may include the initial Talmud and Mishna.
As to the 6 points presented, we can look at them one at a time so as not to confuse the issues as do the "humanists."
Looking at the first point you present regarding the Messiah, it appears to be interpretive as to whether or not the line of Solomon was promised the throne. And if it is interpreted in that manner, weren't there conditions, conditions which he disregarded? Solomon failed in his agreement.
We agree that the David was of the tribe of Judah and his throne was promised to his progeny, but none were named "by name."
Then, it has been said/written by those speaking for Judaism that there is nothing in the Torah regarding the Messiah. I have to disagree with this. The first reference to the Messiah was in the Garden just before Adam and Eve were expelled. God speaking to the serpent clearly states a double meaning, "her seed" meaning a deliverer and, again, "her seed" meaning the natural man was not part of the mix. Jesus is of the house of David/Judah through the line of Mary.___________________________________
There are a few things in Hebrew scripture about the Messiah, but not Jesus, and especially not scripture believed to be about Jesus. It doesn't matter about the name. Although in the English translations they tried to fit his name in
A person is a Jew if the mother is, regardless who the father is, and the tribe always comes through the father, never the mother, never
I'm not trying to get you to not believe in your Messiah, and I'm not trying to change your mind, but all this came about because you first asked me a questionWe're doing fine here. It's interesting and pleasant to discuss God/G-d without barbs from the counter part. As to changing minds, one of my favor characters said "What is wrong with the one I have."
My interest is finding the places where we differ and why, and let the Spirit of God handle the rest. I believe the OT (would you accept OT as the Tanakh for discusson) and the NT to be inerrant. And I believe the whole Bible is the Word of God, though not all the words of God. It was written for us all, but not necessarily to us all.
And, though I can be adamant, beating somebody with the Bible never really accomplishes much in the way of positives. And you may say "we are finished talking" at any time.
I agree the Jesus is not mentioned by name in the OT/Tanakh, but I see many references and prophecies to His life there, many of which He could only watch as His adversaries fulfilled them. And it is the Bible that He used.
Do you have a position regarding my "theory" of the Masoretic text? If not, why not?
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You said Quote " It would seem the Talmud and Misnah and probably a couple other would be the writings" End Quote
It’s Mishnah, not Misnah
The Talmud AND the Mishnah?…
The Mishnah is the Oral Tradition of Jewish law, and is part of the Talmud. in fact It forms the first part of the Talmud
If you’re going to pretend to know something about the Hebrew,/Jewish, at least get your facts straight
Hello Debra.
Could you tell me "If" thees last five criteria are mentioned in my Old Testament and is so, where might I find them. I don't recall reading them in that regard.
Forgive me for my ignorance of the matter.Please Jerami, my name is Deborah, not Debra
It will take me awhile, but I will collect all the verses and post them today, if I find them all soonMy sincere apologies Deborah;
That was completely unintentional.
The reason I ask is that I don't recall reading any thing that I understood to be attributed ti the Messiah. It is my understanding that Cyrus the Great was also considered to be a Messiah of sorts to the Jewish people. Considering he saved them from Babylonian tyranny. That God commanded or Charged him to build him a house in Jerusalem (Ezra 1:1&2) , which naturally meant also to rebuild Jerusalem considering Jerusalem had been "Completely destroyed on 486 BC.
This going hand in hand with Daniel 9:23 and 9:25.
It has always been my understanding that because of these visions as written in Daniel, that the Hebrew people were expecting the Messiah to arrive during the days of the fourteenth emperor of the Roman Empire. I believe Jesus arrived during the time of the fourth emperor.
Please correct me if I am wrong.
I've always been interested as to why Jesus was not accepted as the Messiah.
Thank you in advance for any assistance you can give in this area._______________________________________
He will be descended from King David (Jeremiah 23:5)
He will be well-versed in Jewish law, and observant of its commandments (Isaiah 11:2-5)
Many of the scriptural requirements concerning the Messiah, what he will do, and what will be done during his reign are located in the Book of Isaiah,
He will be a great judge, who makes righteous decisions (Jeremiah 33:15). But above all, he will be a human being, not a god, demi-god or other supernatural being.
The whole world will worship the One God of Israel (Isaiah 2:11-17)
He will be descended from King David (Isaiah 11:1) via Solomon (1 Chronicles 22:8-10, 2 Chronicles 7:18)
Knowledge of God will fill the world (Isaiah 11:9)
He will be a messenger of peace (Isaiah 52:7)
The people of Israel will have direct access to the Torah through their minds and Torah study will become the study of the wisdom of the heart (Jeremiah 31:33)
Temple: * The Temple will be rebuilt (Ezekiel 40) resuming many of the suspended mitzvot
* The ruined cities of Israel will be restored (Ezekiel 16:55)
Some of the prophecies of the Jewish Messiah
* The Sanhedrin will be re-established (Isaiah 1:26)
* Once he is King, leaders of other nations will look to him for guidance. (Isaiah 2:4)
* The whole world will worship the One God of Israel (Isaiah 2:11-17)
* He will be descended from King David (Isaiah 11:1) via King Solomon (1 Chron. 22:8-10 2 Chronicles 7:18)
* The Moshiach will be a man of this world, an observant Jew with "fear of God" (Isaiah 11:2)
- this must all be accomplished in a human lifetime-
* Evil and opresion will not be able to stand before his leadership (Isaiah 11:4)
* Knowledge of God will be known by the entire world (Isaiah 11:9)
* He will accept and attract people from all cultures and nations (Isaiah 11:10)
* All Israelites will be returned to their homeland (Isaiah 11:12)
* Death will be swallowed up forever (Isaiah 25:8)
* There will be no more hunger or illness, and death will cease (Isaiah 25:8)
* All of the dead will rise again (Isaiah 26:19)
* The Jewish people will experience eternal joy and gladness (Isaiah 51:11)
* He will be a messenger of peace (Isaiah 52:7)
* Nations will end up recognizing the wrongs they did to Israel (Isaiah 52:13-53:5)
* The peoples of the world will turn to the Jews for spiritual guidance (Zechariah 8:23)
* The ruined cities of Israel will be restored (Ezekiel 16:55)
* Weapons of war will be destroyed (Ezekiel 39:9)
* The Temple will be rebuilt (Ezekiel 40) resuming many of the suspended mitzvot
* He will then perfect the entire world to serve God together (Zephaniah 3:9)
* Jews will know the Torah without Study (Jeremiah 31:33)
* He will give you all the desires of your heart (Psalms 37:4)
* He will take the barren land and make it abundant and fruitful (Isaiah 51:3, Amos 9:13-15, Ezekiel 36:29-30, Isaiah 11:6-9)
The New Covenant in Jeremiah 31 will be given
This is from Jewish LiteratureThank you, I have some reading to do before I can make a reasonable reply -- comment,,, question,, ???
It is my understanding that Ezekiel began his ministry around 590 BC (??) could you tell me when it ended ?
Isiah from 650 to about 580 BC. (???)___________________
The True Jewish Messiah will be a messenger of peace (Isaiah 52:7)
Yahshua (Jesus) said he didn't come to bring/send peace, but a sword
Matthew 10:34
Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword.
And God's people don't see eye to eye, that's why there are so many churches
Isaiah 52
7 How beautiful upon the mountains are the feet of him that bringeth good tidings, that publisheth peace; that bringeth good tidings of good, that publisheth salvation; that saith unto Zion, Thy God reigneth!
8 Thy watchmen shall lift up the voice; with the voice together shall they sing: for they shall see eye to eye, when the Lord shall bring again Zion
Messiah, means anointed with oil, as Priest, and King. Yahshua (Jesus) was anointed with oil, but he was never anointed King. The Romans taunted him and called him the King of the Jews, but that's all. Martha anointed his feet only.
There was no second coming of the Messiah, ever foretold, and if this was true, the Jewish scriptures would not have failed to tell us of the prophecy
Please remember, you askedSorry about the pause in my replies, I'm unable to be n an upright position, sitting straight up, standing, etc, depending upon the day, 5 to 8 hrs a day and try to make best use of them.
any way, .. yesterday i read all of Isiah. Some of the verses you mentioned (to me) didn't sound to be specifically applicable to the Messiah.
It seems to me that Isiah 52:13 through 53:12 must certainly be speaking of the Messiah.
So, we should pay particular attention to 53:3He is despised and rejected of men; a man of sorrows and acquainted to grief, and WE hid as it were our faces from him, he was despised, and we esteemed him not.
This sounds to me that the Lord planed for the Hebrew people to reject the Messiah.
So for the Jews who did not recognize his presence the first time, there is no need for a second coming.
As for the second coming as foretold in the NT, IMO; Christians failed to recognize it in the same way as the first coming was hidden from the Jews. It didn't happen the way it was expected to be.
Anyway ... It sounds to me that in these verses, God ordains that the arrival of the Messiah will be Hidden from his chosen people. And as it is written, Jesus said, "This generation shall not pass till all these things be fulfilled. To be included in "These Things" which he had described was his second coming. As with all the other prophesy in the OT. this promice of a second coming was made to the Jews of THAT generation.
Jesus's statement was kinda like me saying, " I will come to someones house this month but no one knows what day or hour.
and 24 thousand months later they are still waiting for me to show up.
Maybe I came and the neighbors saw me not.
Hope this doesn't sound aggressive, cause it isn't intended that way.____________________________
Remember, you are reading The Old Testament, not the Hebrew Tanakh. In Hebrew all those verses speak of the Messiah.
Isaiah 52 through 53 is speaking of Israel, and not the Messiah.
Who is God’s Suffering Servant? The Rabbinic Interpretation of Isaiah 53
by Tovia Singer
The prevailing rabbinic interpretation of Isaiah 53 ascribes the “servant” to the nation of Israel who silently endured unimaginable suffering at the hands of its gentile oppressors. The speakers, in this most-debated chapter, are the stunned kings of nations who will bear witness to the messianic age and the final vindication of the Jewish people following their long and bitter exile. “Who would have believed our report?,” the astonished and contrite world leaders wonder aloud in dazed bewilderment (53:1).1The stimulus for the world’s baffled response contained in this famed cluster of chapters at the end of the Book of Isaiah is the unexpected salvation of Israel. The redemption of God’s people is the central theme in the preceding verse (52:12) where the “you” signifies the Jewish people who are sheltered and delivered by God. Moreover, the “afflicted barren woman” in the following chapter is protected and saved by God, and is also universally recognized as the nation of Israel (54:1).
The well-worn claim frequently advanced by Christian apologists who argue that the noted Jewish commentator, Rashi (1040 CE – 1105 CE), was the first to identify the suffering servant of Isaiah 53 with the nation of Israel is inaccurate and misleading. In fact, Origen, a prominent and influential church father, conceded in the year 248 CE – eight centuries before Rashi was born – that the consensus among the Jews in his time was that Isaiah 53 “bore reference to the whole [Jewish] people, regarded as one individual, and as being in a state of dispersion and suffering, in order that many proselytes might be gained, on account of the dispersion of the Jews among numerous heathen nations.”
The broad consensus among Jewish, and even some Christian commentators, that the “servant” in Isaiah 52-53 refers to the nation of Israel is understandable. Isaiah 53, which is the fourth of four renowned Servant Songs, is umbilically connected to its preceding chapters. The “servant” in each of the three previous Servant Songs is plainly and repeatedly identified as the nation of Israel.
Isaiah 41:8-9
But you, Israel, my servant, Jacob, whom I have chosen, the offspring of Abraham, my friend; you whom I took from the ends of the earth, and called from its farthest corners, saying to you, “You are my servant, I have chosen you and not cast you off.”
Scripture
Isaiah 44:1-But now hear, O Jacob my servant, Israel whom I have chosen!
Isaiah 44:21-Remember these things, O Jacob, and Israel, for you are my servant; I formed you; you are my servant; O Israel, you will not be forgotten by me.
Isaiah 45:4-For the sake of my servant Jacob, and Israel my chosen, I called you by your name, I name you, though you do not know me.
Isaiah 48:20-Go out from Babylon, flee from Chaldea, declare this with a shout of joy, proclaim it, send it out to the end of the earth; say, “The Lord has redeemed his servant Jacob!”
Isaiah 49:3-And he said to me, “You are my servant, Israel, in whom I will be glorified.”As I recall from other threads in the past (and your profile), you are a student of prophecy, and my understanding of what best explains those verses you share, are not really different from yours. I recall that he wasn't always rejected either (There was a lot curiosity, that turned, as Jesus saw through their hearts, and even some short lived celebration), there was a time when it was thought it was him, and things changed quickly because Jesus wasn't exactly what was wanted/needed from a particular point of view. Some wanted one thing from him right then, and when they realized it wasn't happening, things changed quickly. In the grander scheme of things, this had to be of course, and subsequent revelation and prophecy touches on what will prevail in the end, and what will be made clear to all at a later time. God is patient, and I don't think is incapable of having his revelation revealed to all who seek it with a true heart. Many things, ideas, can hinder us along the way.
These verses and books of the past so often were speaking to Israel, as a whole. I appreciate what you have shared in the past on issues of prophecy, but regret the lack of time to delve in more, and respond. As touched on here in this thread, this is an especially tough time of year for many to engage in such things. Still, it is fascinating.If there is such a thing as a final conclusion, at this point in my life, mine would be that everything is circular. King Solomon's conclusion in his search for wisdom was, It is all vanity, to eat drink and be merry.
To enjoy life to its fullest while re framing from detracting from the joys of others.
The fact alone that God gave these prophesy both good and bad, says that it is all Gods will. He created both good and evil.
I think everything works out for the best whether we like it or not.
When it is all said and done ... I know nothing for sure cause as he said, nothing is as it appears to be.
And I can be content with that.___________________
Please tell me what prophecies you feel Yahshua fulfilled
You can read Jeremiah 31 to find out what results the Messiah will do/cause once he is appointed King of the Jews
Jeremiah 31:7-40
7 For thus saith the Lord; Sing with gladness for Jacob, and shout among the chief of the nations: publish ye, praise ye, and say, O Lord, save thy people, the remnant of Israel.
8 Behold, I will bring them from the north country, and gather them from the coasts of the earth, and with them the blind and the lame, the woman with child and her that travaileth with child together: a great company shall return thither.
9 They shall come with weeping, and with supplications will I lead them: I will cause them to walk by the rivers of waters in a straight way, wherein they shall not stumble: for I am a father to Israel, and Ephraim is my firstborn.
10 Hear the word of the Lord, O ye nations, and declare it in the isles afar off, and say, He that scattered Israel will gather him, and keep him, as a shepherd doth his flock.
11 For the Lord hath redeemed Jacob, and ransomed him from the hand of him that was stronger than he.
12 Therefore they shall come and sing in the height of Zion, and shall flow together to the goodness of the Lord, for wheat, and for wine, and for oil, and for the young of the flock and of the herd: and their soul shall be as a watered garden; and they shall not sorrow any more at all.
13 Then shall the virgin rejoice in the dance, both young men and old together: for I will turn their mourning into joy, and will comfort them, and make them rejoice from their sorrow.
14 And I will satiate the soul of the priests with fatness, and my people shall be satisfied with my goodness, saith the Lord.
15 Thus saith the Lord; A voice was heard in Ramah, lamentation, and bitter weeping; Rahel weeping for her children refused to be comforted for her children, because they were not.
16 Thus saith the Lord; Refrain thy voice from weeping, and thine eyes from tears: for thy work shall be rewarded, saith the Lord; and they shall come again from the land of the enemy.
17 And there is hope in thine end, saith the Lord, that thy children shall come again to their own border.
18 I have surely heard Ephraim bemoaning himself thus; Thou hast chastised me, and I was chastised, as a bullock unaccustomed to the yoke: turn thou me, and I shall be turned; for thou art the Lord my God.
19 Surely after that I was turned, I repented; and after that I was instructed, I smote upon my thigh: I was ashamed, yea, even confounded, because I did bear the reproach of my youth.
20 Is Ephraim my dear son? is he a pleasant child? for since I spake against him, I do earnestly remember him still: therefore my bowels are troubled for him; I will surely have mercy upon him, saith the Lord.
21 Set thee up waymarks, make thee high heaps: set thine heart toward the highway, even the way which thou wentest: turn again, O virgin of Israel, turn again to these thy cities.
22 How long wilt thou go about, O thou backsliding daughter? for the Lord hath created a new thing in the earth, A woman shall compass a man.
23 Thus saith the Lord of hosts, the God of Israel; As yet they shall use this speech in the land of Judah and in the cities thereof, when I shall bring again their captivity; The Lord bless thee, O habitation of justice, and mountain of holiness.
24 And there shall dwell in Judah itself, and in all the cities thereof together, husbandmen, and they that go forth with flocks.
25 For I have satiated the weary soul, and I have replenished every sorrowful soul.
26 Upon this I awaked, and beheld; and my sleep was sweet unto me.
27 Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, that I will sow the house of Israel and the house of Judah with the seed of man, and with the seed of beast.
28 And it shall come to pass, that like as I have watched over them, to pluck up, and to break down, and to throw down, and to destroy, and to afflict; so will I watch over them, to build, and to plant, saith the Lord.
29 In those days they shall say no more, The fathers have eaten a sour grape, and the children's teeth are set on edge.
30 But every one shall die for his own iniquity: every man that eateth the sour grape, his teeth shall be set on edge.
31 Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:
32 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the Lord:
33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the Lord, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.
34 And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the Lord: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.
35 Thus saith the Lord, which giveth the sun for a light by day, and the ordinances of the moon and of the stars for a light by night, which divideth the sea when the waves thereof roar; The Lord of hosts is his name:
36 If those ordinances depart from before me, saith the Lord, then the seed of Israel also shall cease from being a nation before me for ever.
37 Thus saith the Lord; If heaven above can be measured, and the foundations of the earth searched out beneath, I will also cast off all the seed of Israel for all that they have done, saith the Lord.
38 Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, that the city shall be built to the Lord from the tower of Hananeel unto the gate of the corner.
39 And the measuring line shall yet go forth over against it upon the hill Gareb, and shall compass about to Goath.
40 And the whole valley of the dead bodies, and of the ashes, and all the fields unto the brook of Kidron, unto the corner of the horse gate toward the east, shall be holy unto the Lord; it shall not be plucked up, nor thrown down any more for ever.
A lot in Isaiah is about the Jewish MessiahJerami, Thank you. I too think everything will work out for the best, and that not all things are as they appear. I think you make a great point about keeping things in perspective in light of the bigger issues, and who is ultimately in control. (Or that is what i take in part from what you said.)
I think God does allow evil for ultimately god reasons, and also for part of a consequence for humanity choosing what they have. I am glad he is the standard, and that he has given us what he has. We could search our whole lives and not begin to touch on the knowledge available, and it does bring us back around to what is the point? Being content with what is, is no small thing. God will do what he will, and has given what he has to respond to our not. Anyway, its humbling, and I am thankful.___________________________________
There is no record of Yahshua anywhere in Jewish/Hebrew literature. The NT is the only place
From http://www.jewfaq.org/mashiach.htm
What About Jesus?
Jewish people do not believe that Jesus was the mashiach. Assuming that he existed, and assuming that the Christian scriptures are accurate in describing him (both matters that are debatable), he simply did not fulfill the mission of the mashiach as it is described in the biblical passages cited above. Jesus did not do any of the things that the scriptures said the messiah would do.
On the contrary, another Jewish man born about a century later came far closer to fulfilling the messianic ideal than Jesus did. His name was Shimeon ben Kosiba, known as Bar Kokhba (son of a star), and he was a charismatic, brilliant, but brutal warlord. Rabbi Akiba, one of the greatest scholars in Jewish history, believed that Bar Kokhba was the mashiach. Bar Kokhba fought a war against the Roman Empire, catching the Tenth Legion by surprise and retaking Jerusalem. He resumed sacrifices at the site of the Temple and made plans to rebuild the Temple. He established a provisional government and began to issue coins in its name. This is what the Jewish people were looking for in a mashiach; Jesus clearly does not fit into this mold. Ultimately, however, the Roman Empire crushed his revolt and killed Bar Kokhba. After his death, all acknowledged that he was not the mashiach.
Throughout Jewish history, there have been many people who have claimed to be the mashiach, or whose followers have claimed that they were the mashiach: Shimeon Bar Kokhba, Shabbatai Tzvi, Jesus, and many others too numerous to name. Leo Rosten reports some very entertaining accounts under the entry for meshiekh in The New Joys of Yiddish. But all of these people died without fulfilling the mission of the mashiach; therefore, none of them were the mashiach. The mashiach and the Olam Ha-Ba lie in the future, not in the past.
Biblical Passages Referring to the Mashiach
The following passages in the Jewish scriptures are the ones that Jews consider to be messianic in nature or relating to the end of days. These are the ones that we rely upon in developing our messianic concept:
Isaiah 2, 11, 42; 59:20
Jeremiah 23, 30, 33; 48:47; 49:39
Ezekiel 38:16
Hosea 3:4-3:5
Micah 4
Zephaniah 3:9
Zechariah 14:9
If you want to know how Jews interpret the passages that Christians consider to be messianic
http://jewsforjudaism.org/?s=Messiah
http://jewsforjudaism.org/knowledge/art … saiah-9-6/I may be totally incorrect in my assumptions.
I think my difficulty in seeing things in prophesy the same way as you and most Christians Is that I have read nothing that convinces me that the coming of the Messiah and the end of the world as we know it go hand in hand.
From my prospective, it seems that when Ezekiel speaks of Jerusalem and the temple being built again, I thought it was because in 586 BC Jerusalem and the temple were completely destroyed. Ihave always thought that when Cyrus the Great commanded that the Hebrews be allowed to return to Jerusalem to rebuild it and the temple that these prophesy were fulfilled at that time. BUT , maybe I am wrong?
I would have thought that if this rebuilding of the temple wasn't the event he was prophesying here. He would have made that more clear. He could have said, the temple will be built two more times.
This is also an issue most
Christians have against my thoughts on the matter.
It just seems logical to me that if the Messiah is going to come as foretold ? He would have done it before the Nation of Israel ceased to be soon after Bar Kokhba's revolt was put down.
I read in one of the encyclopedias of Jewish history that before 150 AD, there wasn't a single Hebrew to be found in all of Israel and Judea. Is that correct?
Maybe I just look at things way too simplified of manner.
Several fake Jewish Messiahs have arisen in the world throughout history, and I'm sure a handful thought it might be him. But THE promised Messiah has yet to come
Messiah, means anointed with oil, as King
"Believing" and "knowing that you are right," and that others are wrong, is a very self-righteous and common christian concept.
You, like so many others, Deborah, live in a cloud of make-believe. This is one of the major causes of strife in the world.... and it comes because you have cocooned yourself in that cloud, excluded all other possibilities. It gives you a nice, warm, cosy, safe feeling that no one else, nothing, can shake you from the perch.
I am sure you will find yourself talked about, somewhere in that New Testament. Look for it, like you are looking for a mirror. You will see yourself talked about somewhere in one of the "parables," or in one of the letters that Paul of Tarsus wrote to one of the misguided churches of that day. How do I know this? Because human nature has not changed much down through the ages.__________________________
Really? well no one can say why I believe in God, that means you either
So yes, when people tell me why I believe something, or say my beliefs are wrong, and even why I believe in God, I will tell them that they are wrong, you too
How can telling others they are wrong about how, why, and what you believe, be self righteous? You don't make sense here
Like you said, those are your views, they aren't mineSince you took it upon yourself to declare that a person was wrong......
Having a christian belief does not mean you have the monopoly on what is true.
Simple as that._______________________
Let me get this straight, you're saying I can't say someone is wrong about me..but you can say I'm just wrong?
Sorry, but I have the monopoly on what is true for me..and when someone tells me what, and why I believe, I have the RIGHT to say they are wrong
I do not have a Christian belief..I'm Jewish, and if you had actually taken the time to read what we've all said, you'd know that.
You have got to live your life, and I..mine, but please read before commentingPardon me belabouring the point, but you have a right to say in your opinion they are wrong.
The same as I have a right to say, as a person with a-theist leanings, that in my opinion religiosity has nothing to do with divine truth - it's more of a human concoction than anything else.
Not saying that as an edict, to be accepted as fact by everyone else. In my opinion, there is room in this world for secularism, religion, spirituality, any belief system you like, provided it does not detract from the freedom of others; and provided it does not break reasonably set up laws which are there to protect society from extremists.___________________________
If they are wrong about me, I have a right to say they are wrong, period,
When someone is wrong, they are wrong, and it is not just an opinion.
If I say I am Jewish, and someone says I am Christian, it is wrong, and it's not just an opinion, it's fact
No need to reply..I don't want to know
Who has tried to change anyone's opinion?, or beliefs? certainly not me, I was asked for my answers
I gave them
___________________________
And yet you are declaring me wrong about something that doesn't even concern you, and it's okay. Double-standards, one for you, and one for me
Well, I like myself more than you
If one has faith, then one will naturally lead to a keen understanding that human existence is NOT only physical, but spiritual as well. The sense of awe and wonder that one gets, contemplating the vastness of the cosmos and man's infinitissimally small presence in it, is a spiritual experience worth anyone's perspective, irregardless of whether one believes in the existence of God.
There are of course so many other spiritual events one could and should
experience, the propensity for which, depends a lot on whether, one is open to the idea of the non-physical aspect of existence. An idea that a lot of folks have lost on their way to a purely physical and secular interpretation of reality.And your self-described "keen understanding" tells you this.
Good.
Now prove it. Prove there is a spiritual existence.Spiritual existence and experience, to the extent that it exists in reality can not be proven by empirical evidence, if that is what you are looking or asking for.
Spiritual experiences, are by nature subjective, and as such, are interpreted solely from the perspective of whether those expeririences have value beyond the usual manner with which these are typically measured, not by empirical means and expectations but by perpetual and conceptual introspection.Agreed. But that doesn't mean there is a spiritual "world" or "existence". Only that the human mind is capable of imagination.
Nor does human spirituality require a god somewhere or even the belief in a god. Spirituality is a completely human thing, just as you say, and does not originate anywhere outside of us.And it is this imagination that separates us from the merely animal to the serenely and securely human.
Imagination gives us wings, where none exist.... even our good friend Albert Einstein values imagination, more than knowledge.
Imagining eternal possibilities might be an exercise in futility for you, but even in the realm of the purely physical, which you are so enamored of, imagination could mean the difference between heaven and earth.No it's not - imagination does not separate us from a tree, let alone all other animals. Ever watch a kitten play? Bounce around with a ball, pretending it is an animal about to escape?
Reason - the ability to reason correctly - does. Without that ability a man is no better than the kitten playing with a ball of yarn, and is in fact a far lesser creature than most others.
No, imagination cannot mean the difference between heaven and earth, not unless you wish to live your life out in a drug stupor. Reason, though, can make a much better life for man, and has. The pretend world you think so highly of is still just that - a pretend world - but reason has done a great deal for man, has changed the species from just another animal among thousands to what we have become today.To infer that the imagination involved in a kitten playing with a ball "pretending that it is an animal about to escape" is akin to the imagination of a child playing playing a video game, pretending that he is a super-hero about to escape the clutches of a malevolent monster, is just about the most insipidly inane use of the English language.
Now reason could be as treasonous as that ball of yarn or malevolent monster, depending upon which of these two activities involve more than just pretending, and actually imagining. For it is not in pretending, but in imagining that faith anchored on ideas and ideals, that reason becomes reality.I'm sorry, but "...imagining that faith anchored on ideas and ideals, that reason becomes reality" doesn't make any sense at all. Imagination does not become reason, and reason will not make imagination real.
Pretending, as in the case of the kitten playing with a ball of yarn, is not the same as imagining i.e. perceptively conceptualizing/intellectualizing, as in the case of a child playing a video game. So for you to even suggest that a kitten playing with a ball of yarn involves imagining is one of the worst example of anthromorphism that I have encountered on HubPages. You are the one who is so enamored of empirical proof... so do you have one, when you infered that a kitten playing with a ball of yarn involved imagining?
Religious or spiritual ideas and ideals did not come from pretending... they came from imagining i.e. perceptive conceptualizing/intellectualizing, thus as real as anything else that comes from reasoning..... for what is reasoning really, but perceptive conceptualization and intellectualization?
Drug induced stupor is what you would think of if the person has lost all sense of self- respect and inducement. Heaven and earth are metaphors for inducements and encroachments respectively when life becomes, as they say, inchoate,
Imagination brings us back to where we could live life purposely, and sensibly. Certainly no amount of drugs could make those happen.While earth is no metaphor, heaven is but an imagined place. No metaphor at all - to the believer it is quite real. And while it provides an inducement (just as hell provides the opposite) the question becomes an inducement to what? Live a life of make believe, forever pretending that what one wants is actually there just because we want it? Speaking only for myself, that would not produce any self respect at all but rather self loathing that I would both prefer and require a pretend world over reality.
As far as imagination bringing us "back" (from what?) to live purposely - that would be much the same. How one can live "purposely" when the very meaning and basis for their life is naught but a pretend fiction is beyond me. Even while recognizing that it is quite true for millions of people, I am unable to comprehend why that is so.Why do you insist that what results from using our imaginative powers result ONLY in delusions and pretentions. Your insistence is not validated nor sustained by human existence and experience. Just ask your neighbor.
I am so disappointed that you and other folks have so totally discounted the value of perceptive conceptualization aka imagination, in your daily lives and I could only imagine (pun intended) the harsh dryness and vacuosity of living such lives.But I didn't say that. I said that imaginative powers cannot be relied upon to be truth. The conclusions from imagination may be truth, but they may not as well and until reason and fact are utilized you will never know which one it is.
But are YOU insisting that imagination results only in truth? Did Harry Potter's wand really work? Are there flying, fire breathing dragons about? Do we shoot people to the moon from giant cannons?
Dryness and vacuosity - imagination is great, imagination is fun. It's fun to see a movie, and of all the book genre's out there I prefer science fiction. It just isn't a method to gain knowledge, that's all. It is not a dependable or even useful method of understanding reality - only pretend worlds. Fiction.Ah the movie world.... Full of phantasmogorical iteration and percolation. Harry Potter is full of it , but none of it ever come to a realistic conclusion. I suppose we could blame it on JK Rowling's imagination.
But I am not referring to movie fantasy when I suggested that imagination could lead to realistic expectations.
In the spiritual context, that expectation ONLY means the realization, all too uncommon among folks like you, that there is more to human life and existence, than the material.But those "realistic expectations" that imagination gives MUST be real or they are not realistic at all. Imagining an unreal world, with an unreal god, is not realistic. Imagination fails, then, any time it produces something not of the real world?
I would disagree; instead it is then that imagination is at it's greatest entertainment value. When the result is NOT real. Of course, we must realize that and not pretend that it IS real, but that's a minor problem for reason. A moments thought produces the fact that an imagined, unreal place/event is not real.
And how do you perceptively conceptualize the real world....when it does not need conceptualizing because it is right there in fron of you and sorrounding you.
You obviously use your ability to perceptively conceptualize...., ideas, places, events, that are not immmediately inferred by your 5 senses. In the process you become aware of possibilities/ probabilities that these ideas, places, and events are consequential in that they affect the way you interpret reality, not only physically, but non-physically.
_________________________________
You state that as though you have proof heaven and God doesn't exist, and you don't.
If you do, cite it, otherwise it is just what you think is trueNo more proof than you do of the existence of either.
But for shame; you of all people should understand that the onus of proof is on the one claiming the existence of an entity that cannot be detected and does interact in any way with anything in our universe. Or, going back to old reply, can you prove the non-existence of the pink unicorn hiding under your bed that cannot be seen?
(If you will go back and follow this rather convoluted thread, you will find the explanation that spirituality comes only from subjective imagination and never from actual observation and fact yet is as true and real as the chair you're sitting in. Heaven, then, is but an imagined place that is still known somehow to be real - a concept that I reject.)_________________________
The difference is that I'm not telling you that you are absolutely wrong in your ideas, and putting down your religion, or non-religion, and I haven't been insulting..to you<"I haven't been insulting..yet."> If you become insulting you will be banned, just to remind you.
(I would hate for you to insult our wilderness!
)_________________________
That goes for you too, and edited curse words
And yes, I know about being reported in the past, but I have to inform you, I wasn't banned
And it seems you are harassing me, and making threats, because you are hoping I'll be banned, that is why you follow me from thread to thread
Please stop threatening me, and what I say to Wilderness, is between Wilderness, and me" That goes for you too, and edited curse words."
You have made a very false accusation by saying I edited curse words.
I am free to comment anywhere I choose, I thought you knew that?
But anyway, I am done, now that all is out in the open.______________________________________
Really Kathryn, what's this? I'm not stupid, in fact I pride myself on my intelligence
and I said curse word, not words
http://hubpages.com/forum/topic/126751? … ost2689974This is sinking a little low: creating illusions.
"Edited" did not refer to a swear word. You misunderstand.
Really our disagreement stems from this revelation:
You say the OT is to be regarded, yet the NT is to be disregarded.
Why would you not allow others their belief in the New Testament?
I really did not think you would go so far as to state so clearly your disbelief in Jesus!
I am confused as to why you did and do go so far!
As you know, I am for freedom of choice of religion. I am certainly not knocking yours. But you go a little far when you put down others' strongly and traditionally held beliefs.
It makes me wonder... to what end?__________________________
Because I am Orthodox Hasidic Judaic, and we don't believe in Jesus as Messiah
I have the right to not believe, and I have the right to express it, after all, the Christians constantly talk about him, and call him the Messiah, and some state they don't even believe in God, and anyway, I was asked.
Jesus did not fulfill any of the Messianic prophecies
We've gone over this again, and again
I was in the Christian religion, until God led me out, and I chose to be JewishThats fine for you.
And your beliefs are very interesting.
But, Christians are very loving, kind people in general. They really can't go wrong in believing in Jesus. Its the false dogmas we must watch out for which distort the true message of Jesus.____________________________
It's okay to believe in Jesus, that's not the problem, that comes through worshiping him over God
It's fine to adore him, but not more than God
Exodus 20:3
Thou shalt have no other gods before me.
From the KJV bible
Deuteronomy 6:4
4. Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God is one Lord:
The Hebrew bible CB says
Devarim 6:4
4. Hear, O Israel: The Lord is our God; the Lord is one
This, what seems, just a slight difference, changed the meaningThank you very much for your explanation. I actually agree, but with this understanding: Worshipping Jesus is the same as worshipping God. (But I like *devotion to* rather than *worship*)
Jesus rejoined the Spiritual Ocean of God's Consciousness. We can too. Jesus shows us what is in store for us. Undreamed of possibilities. "Know ye not that ye are gods?" He asked. He knew every single one of us has the same potential for triumph in Spirit. It is the essence we already are, but just haven't realized yet. In other words, We are all begotten Sons/Daughters in Consciousness and in Spirit. How could we not be?
Beget:
1 father, sire, have, bring into the world, give life to, bring into being, spawn.
2 cause, give rise to, lead to, result in, bring about, create, produce, generate, engender, spawn, occasion, bring on, precipitate, prompt, provoke, kindle, trigger, spark off, touch off, stir up, whip up, induce, inspire, promote; enkindle.
TWISI
But I haven't put down your religion (very much, anyway), just the religious attitude that imagining answers without ever testing them for veracity can result in knowledge that others should then accept as truth. We all know that doesn't work...except in religion, where it is the ONLY way to find answers.
Nor have I insulted you - I've tried very hard NOT to be insulting while at the same time presenting ideas and concepts that are very far from what you already accept as true._____________________________
By continuing to say I haven't tested what I believe in, it is insulting me
You don't ask why we believe, you state only that we didn't do any kind of investigatingBut you yourself said you didn't test! Just attributed things to a god because you had no other answer!
But if you have events that show a god, and have tested them for veracity and truth, by all means show them to us, describe your tests, results and conclusions. Events that violate natural law are best, but even ordinary events where you saw or somehow detected a god with your five senses are great, too. "Feelings", of course, or admitted ignorance prove nothing but that you wish there to be a god.________________________
Please direct me to where I said I didn't test, and how do you know how I know God exists, I've haven't told you, you just keep repeating the same thing over and overWasn't the story of the range oven you? Or am I getting mixed up again?
________________________
What range oven? that CERTAINLY wasn't me. Please direct me to this
It's dangerous to say anything here, you're either misquoted, or accused of saying something someone else saidMy apologies, then. Must have been Cat33.
But if you have tested and found the concept of a god from another universe, that loves us and commands us to obey it's every command, that made this universe, to be true, will you please give use the tests, results and step-by-step conclusions reached? I've never found a way to test for a god...___________________________
Yes right, I'm going to do that on these forums..gotcha!Why not? Whoever told the range story did - the proof of a god was ignorance of how or why they woke up when the oven was left on.
_______________________________________________
Well, that's their choice, but I am not going to be slammed by people here, and that's exactly what will happen, and you know I’ll get a bashing from you too. These forums are good for explaining beliefs, but nothing deeper. You are asking, not so you can see God, or know how to reach God, or any such reason, but so you can ridicule me
The other person must have felt that God caused them to, what? wake up and find the stove was on? or something.
If we serve God, he will inform us, and protect us, but a single such item, is not enough to convince me to believe there is a God
When I was a child, we didn't go to church, and my parents didn't teach me of God, I taught them later when I was an adult, and I had converted to Judaism
They never wanted to choose our religion for us, and they never tried to convince us to even believe there was a God..
I didn’t learn it from others either.
I wasn’t allowed to go to friend’s houses, they had to come to our house, or forget about it. A cousin of mine was murdered, when she was abducted while walking home from a friend’s house, so my dad wanted to protect us, and he was a little strict.
We weren’t allowed to have a TV until I was ten years old, and we spent family time together for one, and one half hours, every evening before bedtime.
My dad owned a fairly large Dairy Farm, so we lived in the country on eleven-hundred (1100) acres of land. We sold milk, and meat to Sealtest at first, and later to Bordens. We sold meat to other companies too.
For entertainment we rode horses, and played music, and played ball.
All that said, I was pretty much cut off from the religious world, yet at the age of seven (7) my knowledge of God, was just there. I didn’t know who God was, and never really paid attention, if anyone mentioned a God while around me, if they did.
That’s where my story ends on the Hubpages forums"You are asking, not so you can see God, or know how to reach God, or any such reason, but so you can ridicule me"
You are quite mistaken. I'm not interested in your beliefs nearly so much as in how you got to them. Statements of a god mean nothing to me, or to anyone else that desires to make a choice themselves. Instead, the data behind the statement is what counts - show the evidence, discuss the reasoning process and then let the listener choose based on the evidence instead of merely making statements and expecting or hoping for a matching belief. The only people that deserve ridicule, IMO, are those that make ridiculous statements out of the blue and then refuse to back them up - not those that have actually examined their beliefs and have a reason for them.
Of course, a statement that one was woken by something unknown and therefore God did it isn't much of a reason...
Your history sounds much like mine, except for the religion. No TV, no friends (outside the church) lots of family time. But I had religion pounded into me from a very young age and it took a long time to understand the foundation for the belief was but sand instead of bedrock.__________________________________
This has nothing to do with it, but...in another thread a guy said "We can't see wind, and we can't prove there is wind, but we know it exists anyway", to which someone stated that we can prove there is wind...
But let's say you were abducted...(an alien can really help us see things more clearly..so.., and I really do hope you know I'm kidding)
The alien has never seen wind/air, and didn't even know it existed, after all, he's from another planet (because your air tank is almost empty) you try to explain what air is, what it looks, feels, and sounds like....
You mission if you choose to accept
Prove to me that air, and wind exist...or how do you know it's there, etc, take your time to convince me, you've got plenty of air in your tank...you have no artifical ways to make air..so that's not an answer
I'm serious________________
Wilderness, you never explained to me how you would explain "wind' and "air" in a way an alien would understand.
Can't you do it? I'm still waiting
_____________________________________
You know that no person can scientifically prove that God exists, and I really feel that one reason is because we aren't suppose to be able to
One Or Two More Requests
Please tell me:
What type evidence are you looking for?
What has convinced you more than anything?
Would you rather there be a God, or there not be a God?Testable, observable, repeatable evidence available to everyone. That's how we learn, not by making stories or using our ignorance to come to conclusions.
I'm not convinced of anything on the god issue except that no one I've ever talked to has been able to produce any actual evidence. Only supposition, imagination and theories founded only in their desire for a god. Maybe there is one (or thousands) out there, maybe not.
No god. I don't want eternal life (there can be no worse punishment) and don't need an ET to tell me right from wrong. I also firmly wish that free will be actual and true but any and every god ever formulated negates the premise. The Abrahamic entity goes so far as to control thoughts and actions of people, followed by punishment of other, innocent people for what He did.
____________________________
You told another lie on me here when you said "But you yourself said you didn't test! Just attributed things to a god because you had no other answer!"
I never said any such thing. Is it always hard to you to understand what people are saying? or doing it on purpose
Either way, I find it dangerous to talk to youUmm...you need to go back and read the entire thread. I mistook you for someone else that told a story of a range left on - remember? I also apologized for the mistake, if you will take the time to refresh your memory. What did you do, search for a post that could, taken out of context, be considered offensive? You really, really, really need to get that chip off.
But I also clearly asked you to tell us of the tests you've made, a request you've declined to answer which probably means you haven't done any testing at all. Probably, not positively.
Yes, it may be dangerous to talk to me. Safer would be to talk with only people sharing your belief structure, but that also means you will never learn anything new. Your choice, of course.________________________________
The other person lied to me and tricked me, and now he is insulting to my people.
You wouldn’t take it, so stop saying I should. I won’t.
My bible doesn’t say to turn the other cheek, that’s NT info..My bible teaches me: an eye for an eye, tooth for tooth
If you are going to say I said something, you should be the one who locates it. When someone says to you to prove there is no God, you tell them that the burden of proof lies with the person stating that God exists.
Well it applies here too, it’s up to you to give a link to my comments, it’s not up to me to find them ..the burden of proof lies with you
No, I would be safer to talk to someone who doesn’t accuse me of saying what I didn’t say.
I get along with many who don’t believe like me,and those who do not agree with me
And what are you speaking of when you say: “ What did you do, search for a post that could, taken out of context, be considered offensive?
I learn something new everyday. But if by learning you mean to deny God, I won’t..you go ahead and deny him, but I won’t regardless of how much you bully me
You really, really, need to worry about the chip on your own shoulder.
If I tested something one hundred times, and it could be proven, I wouldn’t show you the proof, because you don’t deserve anything from me…I’ve told you “no” in three threads.
I asked you to convince someone who knows nothing of wind, that it exists..you didn’t. You can even prove wind, and you want me to prove God..Get real
As opposed to the excitement of oppressing people on the basis of religion?
History and a look at non-secular nations suggest religious regimes are not based on "love" but oppression.Your wording betrays your prejudice. "A look at non-secular nations suggest[s] religious regimes are not based on 'love' but oppression." How can a look at non-secular nations tell you such a thing?
And you're not looking carefully enough at history. Oppression occurs from ego, not religion or religious dogma. Religion or socio-economic philosophy or other ideas are merely symptoms of a much more deeply rooted problem -- the personal attitude of self as separate from others and the idea of self-concern.
The love of which AV spoke is involved with the opposite to Ego. Ego separates; Love brings us together.
I observe a world where all truth is under fire more and more. It doesn't seem as specific as I once would have thought, meaning perhaps that it targets the true good, truths of God and faith, etc.
It seems to me that much of truth of almost any subject, is also a target. Like it is opposite day, lol. This alarms me, because most humans don't usually want to go after untruths, especially with no benefit to them, and possible hurt to them or others. So is it secularism? Sure it could be part of that. Interesting to notice, and noticeable enough for all of us to ask what genuinely explains it, and not just what we would prefer to explain it.
Beautiful OP, AV.
I think the evil fits both sides of the fence, though.
Ego is the culprit, always. This is the meaning of ego that includes self-concern, selfishness, separateness from others, self-entitlement, self-righteousness and the like. This is the opposite of Love.
True Love has no self-concern and never keeps score. True Love is unconditionally generous and finds it effortless to turn the other cheek and to forgive.
There are those who are "religious" but follow Ego instead of Love (God) or Christ, just as the Pharisees did.
The psychopathic elite, through their myriad corporations have been slowly turning the screw of Orwellian Newspeak, making our most precious ideals weak or inverted. War becomes "peacekeeping." Discrimination has changed from intelligent selection of the good, to unintelligent judgment of others as unworthy.
Critical thinking has been crippled. I've even found myself being suborned by their soporific effects. Only in the last 3 years have I woken to see just how badly they have corrupted the world, murdering 3,000 Americans on 9/11 and then tricking the world into believing that 19 Muslims did it. They own the Corporate Party news media, so very few ever find out the truth of their crimes.
And many self-proclaimed intellectual giants here on Hub Pages can't think straight enough to understand the simple facts. One such giant had the temerity to imply that solid steel could ever offer zero resistance to collapse. The arrogance is so thick with them, they could not participate in a coherent debate. Their know-it-all attitude has blinded them even to understanding the statements of others. They live in their own shell of a world, insulated from having to deal with the viewpoints of others. As Christ said, the First (egoist) shall be last; and the Last (humble and loving) shall be first.
I wouldn't be surprised if the psychopathic elite (Rothschilds, Rockefellers and their ilk) were responsible for the Fundamentalist revival in the early 20th century -- fanning the flames of illogical religiosity to drive a wedge between the spiritual and the secularists.
One Rockefeller bragged about their family funding Women's Liberation -- not to liberate women, but to destroy the family by making children more dependent upon the State. They also doubled their income through their private Federal Reserve bank via personal income taxes. Women joining the work force accomplished two evil goals for them.Remember, you are reading The Old Testament, not the Hebrew Tanakh. In Hebrew all those verses speak of the Messiah.
Isaiah 52 through 53 is speaking of Israel, and not the Messiah.
==================
You are correct, I am at a disadvantage in understanding the Jewish perspective in reading only the KJV. That being said; It just seems to me that C. 53 is speaking of an individual man. "He is despised and rejected of men; A MAN of sorrows, ...."
From what is written, This may not be talking about the Messiah or any specific person. It sounds as if it may be speaking about any individual person who is Gods servant. "A Man of sorrows" indicates to me to be speaking of an individual .... and WE hid as it were OUR faces ... and we esteemed him not; seems to me as if the we did indicate all of Israel.
But as you say, I'm reading the OT as it has been translated incorrectly (?) and not the Tanaka. Maybe I'm not reading correctly what is writtenBut in the Verses I gave you, he is referring to Israel as a servant, and not as servants, though Israel contains more than one person
Isaiah 49:3-And he said to me, “You are my servant, Israel, in whom I will be glorified.
So though it may sound like one man in Isaiah 52 and 53, it says it is addressing Israel
In Isaiah 51:3 if you did know Zion, you might think it is a woman
The same is true of Jerusalem in Isaiah 51:17..and her sons are the people in Jerusalem Isaiah 51:20..
It is them who are the afflicted Isaiah 51:21
Isaiah 52 and 53 continues speaking of Zion, and Jerusalem, It is poetic.
Isaiah 53 speaks of Israel, and nations recognizing what they have done to hurt them, and how Israel was afflicted, and how all will be restored after the coming of the Jewish Messiah. In Isaiah 54 it is still speaking of them
Jeremiah 31 is speaking of Israel, when the Jewish Messiah arrives
I am posting what you asked, not trying to change your mind, you have to believe what you must believeHello Jerami, (Edited) Most of our Christian bibles actually do usually line up with the Hebrew, the Masoretic texts, that I have studied as different topics have come up.
I have studied the scriptures for most of my life, and certain discussions like some of the ones I am observing have led me to dig a lot deeper into what is available. I enjoy inductive study a lot, and not listening just to what anyone says, without seeking first what the scriptures say themselves. There are times of course for commentary from very trusted sources, but I try to wait until all other avenues are tried, for the most part. Cross referencing is helpful when all verses are taken in context of the whole. I believe the whole bible gives one great picture, beginning to end.
Several years ago I had spoken of wanting an Interlinear translation, so I could stop with all the going back and forth of opinions on texts by different people from different groups. I mean, I wanted it straight from the best ancient texts, in a way that was verifiable. For Christmas one year, my husband did get me an interlinear translation bible which is bound into several different volumes, and I use it in my study of these topics, its wonderful. It includes Hebrew, Aramaic, and then Greek for the NT from the most currently available texts we have. It is relatively easy to check and see, with the right tools, if a verse is using a Hebrew word in one way or another. So when I see a the idea expressed that the English translations got something wrong, I can see if that is true or not. The line by line translation I have has been one of my favorite gifts ever, because anyone can say anything in books and commentaries, but no one can argue with the ancient texts, in my opinion. So if we are honest and study those the best we can to really test what we think is true and right, and be willing to be wrong when we are, then in that lies the truth I think.
I have found, that people on the internet can and do say all kinds of things. The best we can each do to be truthful to ourselves and our ideas and beliefs about the universe and its history, is to get to the core of the matters as best we can. We are studying from the best of the ancient translations or we are not. The undoctored, not tweaked for whatever the reasons is what I think is best to study. Many study bibles will share where they get their texts from.
I have discussed these topics for years with people of all faiths and had some surprising responses, but learned all along and tested my own beliefs the hardest of all. I don't want to believe anything for poor reasons. So just reminding, we have available to us the ancient texts to compare and see if our own translations really have it wrong or not. I don't think anyone has said this, so not suggesting that, but If it was some agenda on the part of the translators to push something that isn't in the text, then this can be sought out evaluated for its truthfulness. I feel thankful for such tools, and love these discussions and topics because they are the most important in all of life I think.
- Deborah Sextonposted 10 years ago
0Jerami
A person has to read the ancient Hebrew bible, before they can know what the scriptures say.
I'm not speaking of reading the translations
Translations such as the Masoretic texts, is incorrect, and has a lot of errors.
Although this video is about God's true name, it also explains about the ancient Hebrew scripture, and the Language, and how the Masoretic vowel points changed the words and meaning.
We got our Hebrew bible manuscripts in Israel, written in separate books, written before the Masoretic changes
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yOfg8R3Ngvs
One thing though, he states that without vowel points it didn't say anything, I disagree, it said things, but it couldn't be spoken without vowel sounds..that's probably what he really meantI appreciate your sharing your understanding with me. I agree that we would have to read and understand the original texts to better understand the intended message.
But, even then Our understanding will be altered by any and all preciously held beliefs.
There are some verses that should be understood exactly as written and some which we must know other facts in order to come to proper conclusions.
And it seems we all discern these things differently.
It seems that the more I learn; the less I know for a fact.
It seems as if knowledge were a river flowing into the ocean. Depending upon when and where we drink, the water tastes differently.
And everyone's taste buds are different. That which is sweet for one is bitter for another depending upon when , where, and the individual.
I think the will of God has already been written in our hearts, and the best way to know the will of god is to truly know our hearts, and keep them. Or something like that.
Is it necessary to know where we came from in order to know how to be and what to become.
I don't know.___________________________
No Jerami I didn't have preconceived ideas that influenced how I interpreted scripture.
See, I was in the Christian church, and I believed just the opposite of Jewish people, and their knowledge of the bible. (they know what their words mean)
In Isaiah 52 and 53, it states who it is speaking of...which is Israel, and all of the Jewish people
It isn't speaking of the Messiah, not the Jewish one, and not the Gentile one.
The scripture I gave you is about the Jewish Messiah, even though you can't see it. The Hebrew scripture is written with hidden truths, along with Idioms of the day, metaphor, euphemism, and allegory. There are hidden things written, that are weaved among words, and numbers
The English Messiah didn't do what the Jewish Messiah will do
You asked me to show you scripture about the Jewish Messiah, I did, and you say "no that doesn't sound like it is speaking of the Messiah". But where it isn't speaking ofr the Messiah, you say it is..
So you should believe what you want, but try to be careful what you teach, especially to the young
The Masoretic texts, are very fallible
Belief that a Messiah will come is different than having to believe that a certain person is the Messiah.
1. have the correct genealogy by being
descended from King David and
King Solomon,
2. be anointed King of Israel,
3. return the Jewish People to Israel,
4. rebuild the Temple in Jerusalem,
5. bring peace to the world and end all war,
6. bring knowledge of God to the world.
If a person fails to fulfill just one, he can't be the Messiah
- Deborah Sextonposted 10 years ago0
Some lies are obvious.
What if the mother crayon was color blind?! Dear A.Villarasa: I also valued the <"the once pristine American landscape of perspicacious clarity afforded by spiritual belief.">
Thank you for providing this opportunity to discuss the problem of our diminishing clarity.
And it is a problem.
What is the solution, do you think?The solution, lies not in our scars, but in our stars. And when I say scar, I mean, the residue/detritus of Homo Sapiens' life as he has lived it on earth over the millennia....full of sound and fury, but did it signify anything more than nothing?
The secularists/atheists in our midst would say, yes, human life is nothing more than the unrelenting march of Mother Nature towards the merely natural/physical/material....thus the scars of living life mostly tethered on the incidental and inconsequential because there is no higher purpose to it.
Man's destiny, because our existence on earth is neither incidental nor inconsequential, lies in our "stars" literally and figuratively, since, as one noted astrophysicist constantly reminded his audience, man is made of stardust, thus it is in his nature to reach for and aim from whence he came from, and in the process, unravel the mysteries of the stars and the cosmos.
Man' s spiritual nature emanates from whence those stars came from...the creator of things that are seen and unseen.Man also came from the dust of the earth, forever being recycled down into the fiery furnace and back up.
Is it thus in his nature to reach for and aim from whence he came from, into the fire far below our current existence?Well...I DID wonder! If we can turn stardust into a parable, why not hellfire? Same reasoning, after all, even if it doesn't sound so noble!
- Deborah Sextonposted 10 years ago0
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Oh and before people get the wrong idea, my parents were great parents. Loving, kind, and fair (my dad was strict due to wanting to protect us).
My parents never drank alcohol, or smoked, and though I've heard my dad two or three times, my mother never used bad words, like curse words, and they never called us names, like brat, or stupid, etc. They encouraged us. People always respected my dad, and loved my mom. They were married until death parted them, after 56 years of marriage. I've had good examples in my life - Deborah Sextonposted 10 years ago0
Wilderness
You said Quote “Testable, observable, repeatable evidence available to everyone. That's how we learn, not by making stories or using our ignorance to come to conclusions”.
End Quote
The problem here is that many things occur without any foreknowledge of the events, so people don’t set up any way to capture anything. (it’s not recorded)
We are our minds, and our flesh is what separates us, when communication does occur, it is relayed through the mind…now I know you don’t like that answer, but it’s true. People receive information in different ways, some through seeing, hearing, sensing, knowing (revelation), dreams, and visions, If it happened to you once, you would not dismiss it again. You continue to call it our imagination, but there is no way to even know we exist but through the mind. You are poo pooing something that is most important. The roll our minds play in our lives.
I don’t think our Creator cares about the opinions of people, who don’t believe in him anyway, or rather, he doesn’t feel it is his duty to prove he exists. It is our duty to search him out
All I have is my journals, witnesses, medical records, check stubs, and statements, etcSorry, but "knowing (revelation), dreams, and visions" does not result in knowledge as it is not testable. It could be a lie, it could be hallucination, it could be pure nonsense or it could be true. But without the ability to test it cannot be considered knowledge regardless of how badly we wish it to be true.
"It is our duty to search him out"
So I'm searching, but being told there is no way to gain knowledge of God. Only through dreams and visions - methods that provide only belief without knowledge. Something of little to no interest as we all have beliefs, wildly differing beliefs that all claim true even as they contradict another claiming the exact same thing. It seems obvious, then, that belief ("knowing (revelation), dreams, and visions") does not give rise to knowledge.God is love. If one feels love, one feels God.
Its possible.
... just surmising.Only if you define "god" as the word "love". Otherwise an ET from another universe has nothing to do with feeling love in spite of claims (based on dreams, visions and imagination) to the contrary.
Really...you have been searching? That is not my perception of you, based on the multiple times that we have debated, on HubPages, the issue of God's existence.
Now if I'm wrong , then kindly tell me what sort of searching have you done, in the past, the present, and what kind of searching would you be doing in the future.________________________
None, because if a person researches, they might find something that doesn't support thier BELIEFS that we are wrong
The deepest of all secrets are those best known to all, that which most learn as small children, take for granted the rest of our lives, live with daily—and yet never manage to unravel or grasp with their cognitive mind.Excuse me????? "The deepest of all secrets are those best known to all, ....."
Do I detect a contradiction in terms here? How can a secret be a secret if it's best known to all?
Some of life's mysteries are mysteries simply because a simple solution is rejected early on.
All too often the right answer is the first which just pops into our heads.
And when we reject this answer no matter hard we search, we can't find an answer.
I'll use an automotive analogy. Car won't start. dead battery. My dad said for me to ck the electrical ground. I told him, No, that is not it, I checked. Alternator burns out and I replace it. I'm thinking now I got it. Dad says to check the electrical ground. I said no that ain't it. The starter burns out and I replace it. I got it now! Dad said check the ground, I said that ain't it I checked it. The neutral start switch goes bad, I replace it. Dad says check the ground.
I replaced every electrical component on that car. Dad says , You have a bad ground.
I went to visit dad. He looked at the ground wire to the battery, then he looked at the ground wire to the motor to firewall, it was good. He took the voltage regulator off the firewall and there was rust under it. It wasn't getting grounded to the firewall which was grounded to the battery. Dad took a piece of clothes hanger, wrapped it around the screw which held the regulator to the firewall and said, "Now it is grounded" And I never had any trouble with it again.
In final conclusion ... I spent a couple of years and a lot of money keeping a car running, because I rejected a simple truth in the first place when I didn't correctly understand the simplicity 0f a simple statement as truth.
When you find what you are looking for and throw it away because you don't recognize it; you are probably never going to find it, unless some body picks it up and hits you with it.Sorry, Jerami but, despite your very eloquent analogy, it simply has nothing to do with the contradiction in terms that I hinted at. ..not that I can see, anyway.
If you were hoping that analogy would somehow lead to a conversion of someone to the christian faith, again I cannot see it. Sure, I presume you personally are strongly of the christian faith, but the analogy does nothing for that, nor does it prove anything.Actually,I thought my analogy lies about half way between what what both of you were saying.
and as for my saving strong Christian beliefs, that would depend upon who you ask. Most atheist would agree with you that I do. Most Christians would argue with you, they would say I am a heretic.
I agree with many of your beliefs and with many of the beliefs of those you would call a fundamentalist.
As far as I can tell; I'm out in no mans land concerning my religious/spiritual beliefs.
And no, I don't want to convert anyone. I in no way want to be a leader nor a follower._______________
He explained it exactly the way I meant it. People learn a little of something, and accept it just that way, and because of this they don't search for the deep, and true meaning. Therefore, my statement that "the deepest of all secrets are those best known to all, that which most learn as small children, take for granted the rest of our lives, and live with daily—and yet never manage to unravel or grasp with their cognitive mind", still stands, and still holds trueI found just that situation when, having been brought up christian all through my childhood and teens, then "progressed" into evangelical circles, and got caught up in the fundamentalism, I had a look at Hindu and Buddhist concepts. They helped me to see deeper truths that were said to come from Jesus, but somehow the christian teachings had distorted or twisted everything to their own way of thinking.
Maybe we have some common ground Deborah and Joel.
Exactly and great analogy
Also some people refuse to accept anything because they have to keep backing up what they've said earlier in other words, they choose not to see or understand because it could cause them embarrassmentAnd also; it is a lot easier to hold onto our beliefs whatever they may be; whatever they may concern, when we don't even consider that we might be wrong.
How true that can be with some people of a religious persuasion.
Not saying "all" of course.
_________________________
No contradiction, just that you don't understand this simple conceptI must apologise to you, Deborah, for not understanding simple concepts. I even had to look up the amazing word, "perspicacious."
What I have seen coming from people who have strong "beliefs," is that they presume to have the upper hand in understanding anything that cannot be proven, in normal every-day experience to the satisfaction of those who are more skeptical, like myself. Even in that word "perspicacious" there is a strong element of superiority.
Just because you believe in a god, and maybe a life after death, and you belong to a band of people who likewise have those beliefs, does not make you an authority on morality. It does not automatically give you the right to judge others who do not similarly believe.
You feel, apparently, that non-believers are rude, sarcastic maybe, of you who are a believer. This is hardly surprising, surely? As a person with a-theist views, I do not try to deny any believer his/her right to believe, or even change from those beliefs. Numerous times, in numerous hubs and discussions, I have put this point strongly. You are free to have your beliefs, without my permission or without my agreement. I am free not to have them. I am free to live my life as I see fit, provided I don't deprive anyone else of their freedom.
So, if you don't want to be accosted by non-believers, I suggest you begin offering love and tolerance of other views, and cease pushing your own views as paramount. There is room in this world for each of us, given that tolerance and understanding.
IF a god really exists, outside of the human mind, then any amount of disbelief will not negate that existence, so it really does not matter one iota whether we agree or not.______________________________________________
Perspicacious is hardly a word of superiority, it’s a simple word meaning: having a ready understanding of things.
Because you had to look up the word, you obviously view me as someone who thinks she is superior, but, it’s untrue, and just in your mind. If you don't know a word, don't accuse me of superiority, It's your fault, not mine.
I have never said I am an authority on morality, and I haven’t judged anyone, because I’m not God, so it’s not my job.
Your words have judged you. I see you in the words you write.
I have my Smicha, and I am certified to teach the Jewish scriptures, it’s what I do, and what I will continue to do, regardless if you see me as thinking I am an authority in morality, or not.
I am also an ordained licensed minister, and with my Smicha, and the fact that I have studied morality as scripture tells us, I do teach what it says. If that conflicts with who you are, it is between you and God, and is no one else’s fault.
Please don’t tell me what I feel, because you DO NOT KNOW how I feel. And if I do feel that some non-believers have been rude to me, it’s because they have been very rude at times.
I know I am free to have my beliefs without your permission, this isn’t your forum. However when spiritual people are speaking, and in the middle of the comments someone keeps stating that there is no God..it breaks the flow of things.
The forum rules say that you can’t hijack a thread, and you have to stay on topic, yet I haven't reported anyone for this.
No one is trying to persuade you to be a believer, and I can’t understand why you think they have, just because we start a thread about God. Why do you read them?
By sharing about God, and his word, I am showing love. So this “you’re not showing love,” cry, is a cop out.
I am NOT a NT “turn the other cheek” person, I believe in the Jewish scriptures that say “an eye for an eye” so saying I don’t show love, doesn’t intimidate me, so stop trying.
Who cares whether you believe or not, I couldn’t care any less than I already do…
I am also a nurse and have my masters, is that wrong too?Deborah, when I wrote that post, it was a little harsh, I admit that and apologise.... since then I have read more of you from your profile and your hubs, so have much more respect for you.
However, you have said that "no one is trying to persuade you to be a believer." You personally might not, but in many cases here in the forums believers are on that mission to convert. They firmly believe that it's their duty to convert as many non-believers as they can. Numerous times believers have pointed the finger at non-believers saying "you are wrong because you are breaking God's rules, therefore you are wrong and you will go to hell," or something like that.
Believers are stating their views as if they are universal facts, and anyone who does not hold those views is "out in the cold." There are not many who will afford me the same tolerance and consideration as I offer those who are believers. This is why I, and probably most other non-believers, get up in arms when I see someone making a statement which is supposed to place the believer in authority and superior to others.
I have been through a very long journey of searching for meaning in my life. I also started out in general nursing, well over 50 years ago now. I then went into medical radiography. The awe and wonder of biology, life, the human body, as well as all the other bodies of every species, inspire me way beyond the constrictions of religious dogma and belief. The sciences in general show me that to limit a "god" to what only we humans can conceive with our limited perception is to belittle our very existence. The "mind" of whatever set this universe in motion can never be the petty arguments that we humans put up for serious acceptance.
So, please everyone, continue the discussion. But let's keep it such that we can grow and expand our consciousness, not constrict it.______________________
Okay thank you for explaining
I too have been attacked many times by believers, because the Christians, don't believe what the Jewish people teach. I will teach scripture, especially when I see some of the craziest interpretations of others. I will teach what it says in Hebrew, and the true meaning of the Hebrew words, but I never try to talk someone into converting to Judaism. People in the Christian religion usually hate me because I will not call Jesus our Messiah
I'm not in basic nursing, for me the level of practice is advanced practice nursing, I have my degree in Master of Science in Nursing (MSN) , Registered Nurse (RN), Doctor of Nursing Practice (DNP,) my Specialty is Perioperative, Assessment, Diagnosis, and Nurse Management.
It took 6 years to just get my MSN, I worked hard, and I am proud of myself, but I'm also proud of my Smicha, and Ordination
Probably why they remain eternally as a belief instead of knowledge, don't you think?
As I cannot conceive of any test that even might support the idea of a god if there is one, I ask other people how they know their god exists.
After 40+ years of asking, not a single answer/conclusion/reason that I can verify as truth. But I will keep asking anyway - someday perhaps a god will exhibit itself and people can tell about it.
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You have no idea what "knowing" even means
You are incorrect about the other things,, something written down one year ahead of time, which is 100% accurate, witnessed and signed is evidence. I don't care what information you reject, it's your choice, and mistake
You don't seem to get that your opinion means nothing in my experiencesknow
nō/Submit
verb
1.
be aware of through observation, inquiry, or information.
"most people know that CFCs can damage the ozone layer"
2.
have developed a relationship with (someone) through meeting and spending time with them; be familiar or friendly with.
"he knew and respected Laura"
Nowhere there do we find reference to "belief" being equated with "know". Imagination is not mentioned, and neither is ignorance. Unmentioned, but very true, is that the "information" mentioned must be verifiable; otherwise Harry Potter must be true.
"You are incorrect about the other things,, something written down one year ahead of time, which is 100% accurate, witnessed and signed is evidence."
Probably, but evidence of what? A lucky guess? A prediction wide enough to encompass any possible "interpretation" (Nostradamus did this, too)? A prediction of an event that was based on political or other observation and extrapolated to a reasonable conclusion (My sister predicted the election of Obama, and so did I...)_______________________
I said a "Knowing" not "Know"
You realize something no one taught you, and later find it to be trueHappens all the time to everyone in the world. We all learn things that no one taught us.
Of course, the "true" part enters into the picture as well - your concept presented here, of "knowing" via vision or dreams, kind of says that the "true" is irrelevant to faith and desire. That the "knowing" you present isn't "knowing" at all as there is likely no truth to know."The truth shall set you free" as the oft repeated adage says... but what is the truth? To you the truth is, unless God actually presents Himself to you in some physical manner, then He does not exist. "Dreams and visions" are not physical enough, I suppose in your world of total materiality....but then again, what assuage and massage those dreams and visions but the mind...the consciousness that emanates from the biochemical reaction in the neuro-axonal structure of the human brain... which I'm sure you would consider, very physical and material indeed. How those biochemical reactions gets translated into consciousness, might just be the connection between the material and spiritual duality of human existence. Truth be told, I think you and other folks have totally lost that connection.
- Deborah Sextonposted 10 years ago0
Some never give any thought to their inward selves of mind and emotions. They usually contact them only by accident.
There is only a small connection of the two hemispheres of the brain and that small corridor, is the corpus callosum. In this area are nerve fibers that emit electricity and chemicals for communication of these two large sections of the brain.
There are twelve cranial nerves and the longest nerve, the tenth one extends from one side of the brain and intertwines down the spinal cord. There are areas where ganglia masses are formed which consists of a network of sympathetic and para-sympathetic nerves that control the voluntary and involuntary systems.
The two sides work together as one, and they do it in a push, pull fashion in the same way the heart chambers do .
Some scientist know that the left, and right sides, are opposites in this concept, others say it is untrue that left and right brain people are different.
In a right brain person, the communication
is greater, and we not only have left brain logic, we have right brain imagination. The left brain person generally wants an explanation for everything, but rarely accepts anything as true, unless they have witnessed it
I personally see someone who uses both sides equally, the more whole persson - Deborah Sextonposted 10 years ago0
Not everyone is supposed to see, or understand God, and his word
According to the NT Yahshua (Jesus) spoke in parables so that those who wasn't supposed to know the secrets of God, and heaven couldn't
So I feel it is the same today
(Luke 8:10 [KJV]) And he said, Unto you it is given to know the mysteries of the kingdom of God: but to others in parables; that seeing they might not see, and hearing they might not understandNice god! To some he reveals himself, to others he only speaks in riddles so they cannot know him and will never visit heaven.
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I didn't say God said it, I said the NT did, and the NT is what they read
Whatever the reason..
IF, and I doubt it, the NT is right..than God would have his good reasons to withhold info from whoever he wants..people who would never turn to God anyway has no reason for his truths
This is not something Christians believe, but...
God made everything to reproduce by seed of it's own kind..i.e. humans..they are supposed to only have children of other humans, right?
But lets say the fallen angels, who are only a little higher than humans..had relations with humans, and caused their offspring to be part human, and part angels..this is unacceptable to God...and he will not want them to know the deeper truths that he teaches humanYour "if" - it also says the predestination exists. That there is no free will. How does that fit with your beliefs?
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My "If"???
It doesn't, that's in the NT, and the NT isn't part of the Hebrew/Jewish Bible, and I don't believe anything Paul wrote.
Predestination is not something we teach.
My hubs would give you a clue as to what I believe"IF, and I doubt it, the NT is right..than God would have his good reasons to withhold info from whoever he wants"
Yes, your If. If it is true then god is controlling us and predestination is true. It's not something I accept either.______________________________
As I said, it's not my if. Predestination is not a true doctrine.
I hope you're not saying I said it was, or that I even mentioned it, because I DIDN"T
If you are saying this, let me know, because I'm not going to have you put words in my mouth, for about the fourth time, again. I am getting tired of it myself
Paul taught that in the NT, and he is the only one who said it.
You keep confusing the Hebrew Bible with the English ones
God made man with Free Will..who said he didn't? It sure wasn't me
I think you are afraid to confront the person who really said it, whoever that is.., and are accusing me so you can get your point across to them, or somethingYes. You said it. Look at my post, that you replied to: the words in quotations are a copy/paste from your own post. You said it, just as I quoted it. Before you get too tired of "people putting things in your mouth" you might want to go back and read your own posts. YOU made the "If" statement, no one else.
But you didn't say you believe in predestination, or even that God will withhold information from select people He doesn't like, and I didn't indicate that you did, either. Only that you made an "if/then" statement, with an indication that the "if" is incorrect in your opinion. An opinion I agree with as the inevitable conclusion from it is that predestination is true; something both you and I disagree with.
You really do need to pay a little more attention, brush the chip off your shoulder and make an honest effort to understand what is being said before you take offense that isn't there._______________________
Show me where I said that predestination is real. If I said "they said it was real"..I meant the NT, not the Hebrews. Again the NT not part of the Jewish bible
http://hubpages.com/forum/topic/127286? … ost2691228
I can't always understand what you are saying because of the words you use, how you arrange the words and the way you express yourself. In your last comment, I am not understanding exactly what you are saying
In here I hear you are saying that I said predestination is real, and then I hear you say, we agree that it doesn't, I'm confused about what you're saying. That's why I used the ??? marksQuoting from my post this time: "But you didn't say you believe in predestination, or even that God will withhold information from select people He doesn't like, and. Only that you made an "if/then" statement, with an indication that the "if" is incorrect in your opinion."
There is no possibility of interpreting that as indicating that I thought you believed in predestination, not without ignoring much of it and actively searching for offense.
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No I did not , let me break down your reference to what I said
"As I said, it's not my if". (my finished thought) (you said if, and something about believers of God, believing in predestination, so I said believing in predestination is not my if
Then I say
Predestination is not a true doctrine. ( I said it's not a true doctrine again)
Then I said
I hope you're not saying I said it was, or that I even mentioned it, because I DIDN"T"
So no, I Did NOT say I believed in predestination
No, by withholding information, it is not God controlling you, it is just the opposite
If you search and find it, it is because of your free will. If God wanted to control you, he would push the information down your throat, and make everyone the same
If everyone believed the same thing .......... There would never ...
never be a new thing of any kind.Confused (again)???
Evolutionists, "scientists", atheists, antagonists and several others go on day after day speaking their minds, giving thei view points and generally making pointed comments regarding the comments made by Christians. Of course, this is not proselytising because "God does not exist" and therefore there can be no conversion sought. All these folks are trying to do is "reason with these god believers" apparently in hopes of changing their minds, which of course and again is not a "conversion."
Next we have the agnostic (which appears to be a misunderstood term) who wants more knowledge before he or she commits in any direction to or from God. We find the "reasoning objectivist" falls in this group, although they may deny it.
Last, we have the supposed non-proselytising moslem and Hebrews. They take part in discussions, speaking their positions in what must seem to them a matter-of-fact manner of conversation, apparently unaware that what they say is, in fact, a presentation of what they believe and therefore a witness to the unbelieving, by their standard.
So, gimme a break here. If you don't believe in God, what are you doing here, that is, other than pandering for converts. Or are you looking for reasons to believe?
And for those that have a belief in God, why don't you want to share, that is if you think its all that great to begin with.
I believe God. I believe Jesus is the Christ, that He is God. That is a position. Now if you disagree with me in any manner, and try to explain where I am wrong, then are you not trying to "convert" me?
So why all the consternation about Christians on a religious site expressing a Christian belief? I suspect its more envy than education on the part of many unbelievers.
Yeah, I suppose I'll get a few darts and slams. So what's new.Because, Mishpat, I have no wish or intention of changing your beliefs, your faith, even if it were possible to do so.
I come on here because it is so often the christian perspective that seeks to prove that I, as a non-believer, need to change MY point of view and become a believer. And in doing so, I am painted as a sinner, a back-slider, a person who is going to spend the remainder of eternity in some kind of hell.
So, all the time you, as a christian believer, are not willing to allow me absolute freedom to make my own choices, without adding your rider that I "will be sorry," then I will stand here and confront you.
Allow me my freedom, and I will allow you to state your beliefs without question. But fair exchange.Good Morning. I am not sure if I ever made such comments directly to you, but I will accept you are talking in a generality, that being, your response is to all that have responded to you, which would more than likely include me at some point. However, it is hard to express half the story. For that reason, unless someone pushes my buttons, I try to just ask and answer questions directly. Most times, though, the question of retribution of some sort will eventually surface and it has to be addressed. I am not a great "fan" of hell fire and damnation as some put it, but it is part of the story of salvation. Yet, its not a new wrinkle to the old story.
The bottom line is some folks ask about Hell and punishment directly and then are upset when the truth of the Bible is be told. I have to believe that it is offensive to many because they are left with a decision of giving in to God or giving in to self. I hold no power of life and death, punishment or reward, nor does any other believer. We are, or should be, just messengers.Ok, you continue believing what you like about a "God," or a "Jesus," but stop implying that because I, or anyone else who does not accept those beliefs is in someway lacking or in need of them.
If you claim to be in receipt of unconditional Love from that god of yours, let some of the un-conditional bit flow over on to others.
There is no "god" up there above the clouds, so settle back down on Earth --- it needs your energy and commitment.Unconditional love is what God alone can give. Us human folk fall short in this and several other categories. I would try to accede to your request but that would really only be possible when talking about things other than God. Believing as I do, I would want to share what I have, what God has given his people to offer to others. As I said, I am not much for hellfire and brimstone messages as a standard. But if you will, try to put yourself in my position for a moment. You got something great and want to share it. How do you share it without offense? That's where I am at. But I appreciate your position and am willing to discuss without being overbearing.
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That's an untrue statement. Ask any mother
We as mother's love unconditionally
I would live and die for my children, my son, and adopted daughter both
No matter what they do, I will love them and stand beside them
If you can't love unconditionally, don't say everyone can't, it's your shortcoming, not everyone'sI say to all of that, Mishpat, stop believing that what you have is what everyone else needs. That is the path of all outwardly focusing religion. It's ego, just that.
I have tried to do the same in my own life...both doing as you are doing, believing that the message I had was "need" to be received by others.... and then dropping that BS, and saying, "It is within ME that the answers must be found."
The so-called message of Christ has been so, so distorted, by so many well-meaning souls, into a message that says, "A distant life, obscure, built-up belief systems, conducive to man's egotistical designs, holds the answer to everyone's problems." This teaching has supported Roman and post-Roman church dominance and authority for hundreds of years. It has brought about wars and supported much of the grotesque distortion in modern life.
As perceived in the texts, even that Christ person himself did not promote himself as the answer. He was continually pointing individuals to their inner life, their inner conscience, to find the answers.
"I AM. the way the truth and the life" does just that.
"Come unto ME," also points you that way.
"...all Ye who are heavy laden..." i.e., each one of us...
"...and I will give you rest."
It is the meditative state, the praying alone, in private, which can lead into that central font of wisdom, applicable to one's own life, not so much that of others.
Religion will direct you otherwise, because others wish to control your mind. But THE way is via your own inner resources. So I am in control of my life. You have no need to worry about, or pray for me, Mishpat..... thank you all the same.
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Well, not actually true. I came to the forums to raise my hubber score, which did occur. from 65-79.
When I got here I read threads that said incorrect things about the Jewish people, and what the bible says, and felt I should and wanted to post...
I am not allowed to ask people to convert to our religion. My job is to discourage others from converting.
http://www.chabad.org/library/article_c … rsions.htm
http://www.askmoses.com/en/article/194, … daism.html
Why would I care what religion you are?
You specifically asked me to discuss our beliefs with you. Now you are saying I am trying to convert you?
I knew better than to trust your intentions...but I went ahead and gave you the benefit of a doubtThere is no concern about your trying to convert me. I was interested in the recent changes in the doctrine of the Hasidic Jew and posed some questions once a foundation for dialogue was established.
In your comments to others, you had said something to the effect that you do not respond to folks that are irritating or obnoxious. (I don't remember the exact wording, but words to that nature). And I have no problem with that position as it is the same one I take.
When you chose not to respond to my last several questions regarding the Masoretic texts, I assumed I must have hit a button and we were "finished talking." But as I read your other posts, I recognized that, being a convert to Judaism yourself, you probably would not have the background needed to properly answer my questions.
I honored your stated position by not posting comments or responses to you directly, even though there were several inconsistencies regarding Christians and the Bible in some of your postings.______________________________
I don't remember saying that I "do not respond to folks that are irritating or obnoxious" Direct me to this please with a link
Any questions you posted and I saw, and than read, I answered. I don't remember saying don't respond to me directly Give me a link to this please
In fact if you didn't reply to me, or address me I wouldn't have responded. I am very well equipted to answer questions. The Hasidic Jewish people, have not made any changes in what they know (believe is the right word). Again direct me to this information
You're saying all kinds of things without backupI find no need to go searching for what you missed. You may also want to check the history of Baal Shem Tov, whose teachings seem to be your equipment. I am quite certain his teachings would have brought about a "stoning" when Hasidism was the orthodox system of Judaism.
I get most of my "stuff" from God, and Hebrew scripture
Hasidism still is the orthodox system of Judaism....
But due to your lack of understanding, you think we go against the bible, yet you think Yahshua is God.
Your Idol
You're the one who would be stoned.
You read, but obviously you don't understand
You stated that I said things that I didn't, so give a link or take it back whether you feel like searching or not. Don't quote someone without proving they said it
Hasidism has always been of the Orthodox, and we have always used Jewish Mysticism, what's your point?
How much people think they know about the Jewish people, and how little they actually do, especially you
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That is a blatant lie, and that's Libel
I have NEVER said anything about "irritating or obnoxious", and I never implied it
Link to it or stopGood Morning. I took some time to go back over most of our previous conversations (as of last night) and am unable to find a statement made by you about not replying to the "irritating and obnoxious." I'll not spend any more time on that issue. I stand corrected and apologize for the misunderstanding. I'll need some time to catch up on responses since then.
A lot of the so-called atheists the are on Hub Pages were once religionists themselves, but somehow in their haste to meet God, forgot that they needed to make themselves absolutely of materialist thinking and tethering. The fact that they failed in that regard is to their thinking not any more consequential than the other things that they failed in in their daily lives.
In talking with many of these, and reading their comments here, it would seem the church, i.e. its members, failed these folk miserably. But I do appreciate your term "religionists." It would be a positive if we could find a way to explain to the many here that "religionists" are not necessarily believing people, and that most believers dislike the term and associated terms.
I. Meant to say "free of. Materialist thinking and tethering..."
My next reply is about your Belief that Jesus is the Messiah, and at the same time he is God,
I see you believe nothing like the Jewish
You said Quote "I believe God. I believe Jesus is the Christ, that He is God. That is a position. Now if you disagree with me in any manner, and try to explain where I am wrong, then" End Quote
I will try but it's up to you.You bring up an interesting point, as we do see others trying to reason how Christians also. It is given another name, but essentially is doing the same thing, change someones mind toward a better view. It is suggested often also, that it is a more moral view, with more freedoms for people (sometimes.) If they think its a poor view for whatever reason, then it is a kind thing or normal thing of them to try and show the error of the Christian's ways, if any. This is how I look at it.
The inherent truth, unpleasant as it may be, is that opposing views can't all be true at the same time. We know this intuitively, yet observe others believing what they do, with all their hearts and minds! Thus, its normal to have a bit of curiosity and questions, and also to want to give our reasons for believing whatever we do, or whatever we think is right. I daresay its moral of us as creatures to do so, because not all CAN be right. They could all be wrong though. One might BE right!
In case some ARE looking for reasons to believe, then I will totally share my views when asked, or I see it being discussed. This is why anyone ever makes a thread! I assume the best, they want to discuss. Not attack. You can usually tell pretty quickly.
So I agree its not really a fair point to go after one group in particular, on threads that are about religion, FOR expressing their views, and I and I know some others have observed the same. I also believe in God. My explaining my reasons for my view, and others giving their reasons for not thinking that is a correct view, are just that.
A while back in this thread I ask Deborah for any verses in the OT that proves to her that Jesus was not the messiah. She was kind enough to give them to me. I read them; I understood these verses to be saying something different than she does. We discussed this difference of interpretation. She didn't tell me that I was wrong, nor did I argue that I was "RIGHT".
I understand many verses in the NT differently than most Christians do.
I contribute this to my understanding Prophesy differently in both the OT and the NT than does most Christians. I believe the prophesy in the OT should be understood to the best of our ability before we even consider those written in the NT.
The OT is after all the foundation upon which our understanding of the NT stands and must stay within the parameters of if we are going to understand it correctly.
However; all of the NT churches I have ever attended encourages their members to stand upon the NT, interpreting its meanings and then and only then go to the OT interpreting what we read in a way as to conform to our interpretation of what we think the NT is saying.
That does not seem logical to me.
I do believe in a God similar to the entity which Abraham describes, but not because the bible says so.
There is no reason for me to not believe that God took an interest in one particular group of people and interacted in such a way as to change the course of all of society, that it would come to what it is today.
In the mean time, I can not say with all confidence that anyone including myself is right or wrong, because we all believe different things for different reasons. And because it is written in the bible that "Nothing is as it appears to be" And I truly believe that to be so.Jerami, this is mostly in general to a larger group, but some is to you. Sorry so long.
Interesting. I went back and read some of the prior discussion. Its like I am reading completely different words, meaning ,nuances and tone than everyone else, and I can't help but wonder at what I am observing.
If I had the time in my life, I wish I could respond to everything. I saw the opposite of what you did pretty much, and have continued to, regarding the responses to the Messiah topic.
I have been to a lot of Christian churches. Most actually don't go into prophecy a whole lot, as its a deeper and tougher subject. They do however, focus on what they believe to the fulfillment of a lot of prophecy, which I believe is in agreement with part of your conclusion as well. To delve deeply into Isaiah for example first, and then discuss the later fulfillment as they believe, would take hours if not days. So often they do take the fulfillment, and look back to the prophecy, and share that with people, but know full well that isn't the order in which you do it, nor did they at the time of Christ and prior. Many did take it at face value, and as it unfolded, knew what they were seeing. So I wonder if its a little harsh to suggest churches today are not doing what you're doing as a student of prophecy, when I don't know that they are setting out to teach the method of prophecy in short meeting time. I don't really see any of what you said there as that anyway, but trying to be conciliatory to other views, which is very nice, and not returned in kind.
My biggest warning is to look out for inconsistencies which is illogical, saying some particular texts and words of Jesus and the apostles aren't valid at some times then using them often in other discussions, (sometimes without acknowledgement or maybe even knowing, while putting them down all the same in another breath), look for people saying one thing, then acting in an opposite manner completely, and true lack of humility or ability to even be possibly wrong. God is very clear in many texts in the bible what he thinks about all kinds of things. I just thought more people would see what seems very obvious to me. I would encourage people to watch out also for punishment and reward, or simple "side taking" with their own views and people that they perceive to be in agreement or allowance of almost all they say, while speaking out against the others in unfair ways. To me, a lot of this isn't about truth or seeking God at all. Its hard to know if some are really seeking God and truth, but if they are, I wanted to say a lot of what I just did, generally speaking. Not all that claim all kinds of things, are necessarily speaking for God. Normally, this goes without saying. I see a lot of people being hoodwinked though, and its alarming. Perhaps they are just being nice, and don't want to fiddle with it like I don't want to.
These forums are for discussions of ideas, and going back and forth as we like. Everyone wants winning ideas, or the best of the available ideas. I believe we can personally be deceiving ourselves and others when we have ideas that we want to fall in that category, but they don't naturally fall into it. Thus, the personal choice to engage in tactics when testing the ideas.
Without knowing 100% you are right, you can be pretty sure you are on the side of what seems to be the best views available. Of course things aren't all that they seem, and its one of the things I love about God. While humans often judge others and use rose colored glasses on their own views, and go after others with a glass half empty version of things or worse, God knows our hearts, and all truth. Not being a judge that is too lenient nor too harsh, HE is the best. So I am content to be patient for him. In the mean time though, it is upon us all that seek goodness and truth to share that with a world that shuns the idea there might be more to life than meets the eye, and get caught up in lies and deceptions about things for various reasons, but not for the best actual reasons.Hebrews 1 King James Version (KJV)
1 God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,
2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;Thank you for the links
I've just read about half of one of them. I will inspect them all.
A few of my unasked questions have been answered. Though I won't debate them as facts, but from lack of any other information concerning my unasked questions ? Makes sense to me and doesn't change any beliefs currently held.
I was reminded of one fact. The church refer to Ezekiel for the rebuilding of the temple. Church doctrine makes a connection between the rebuilding of the temple in Jerusalem with the second coming of the Messiah. I have not read any verses in the bible correlating these two events as being connected one with the other.
Ezekiel made his reference of the temple being rebuilt between 597 and around 575 BC.
I see that prophesy as being fulfilled in 538 BC; approx 40 or 50 years after being given. And the regathering of his people. They were already in exile when that prophesy about the people being brought to Jerusalem was given.
The rebuilding of the Jewish Temple in Jerusalem took several decades. The project was first led by Sheshbazzar (about 538 BC), later by Zerubbabel and Jeshua, and later still by Haggai and Zechariah (520–515 BC). The work was completed in 515 BC.
Isaiah 44:28 specifies Cyrus as being the one to rebuild the temple more than a hundred years before it was in need of being rebuilt.
Ezra 1 says that Cyrus makes a proclamation that God has "Charged him" (or commanded him ?) to do it.
Daniel 9:25 says that from the going forth of the command to do this, it shall be 69 weeks unto Messiah the Prince; ... and 62 weeks before the messiah is to be cut off or killed.
This means the 62 weeks began in 538 BC.
For some reason the church teaches that the 62 weeks began around 450 BC when the gates and walls were completed.
This point more than any other; when I first came upon it about caused me to rethink everything I thought I knew about the bible.
If Jesus was the Messiah refereed to in Daniel 9; 568 years go by before this prophesy is fulfilled.
62 weeks in prophesy =s approx 568 of our years.
If we take this equation and apply it every time a time period is given in prophesy before an event is to happen, or an event will last for a certain time frame, you will be totally surprised at the story that comes to life.
If we can not believe the message that our bible tells us God gave to his messenger angel to deliver to one of his prophets ...... Well,...it we don't believe that one, why would we believe any other over it?
Why do we interpret other verses in scripture which comes 600 years later in such a way as to contradict such a simply stated message from God as the one described above.
The 70 weeks as described in Daniel 9:24 that the children of Daniels people had to quit sinning and anoint the Most high, most definitely would have been accomplished while there was a Nation of Israel to be exacted upon. That Nation of Israel ceased to exist as a nation in 138 AD.
was scattered into the wilderness for 1260 days as described approx 40 years earlier by John while on the Isle of Patmos.
Mathematically speaking; If the 62 weeks was completed around 30 AD; the 69 weeks would have come to an end around 96 AD.
and the 70 weeks around 105 AD. And then 40 years later, the Hebrew Nation was no more.
No one believes me, but I believe this 62 weeks until the Messiah is cut off is the key to lifting the veil over prophesy in scripture. The mystery's concerning prophesy as described in scripture disappears, when we stop believing false interpretations of verses that never needed to be interpreted in the first place.
One simple truth can be hidden for eternity under a mountain of interpretations as a rare coin hidden under a multitude of counterfeits. Especially when all of the counterfeits are 99% perfect.
I am not saying I have found the one simple truth. But I am attempting to separate the rusty pennies from the shiny dimes.
After almost two decades of searching; I've come full circle.
I think all we have to do is (keep it simple) read the words written in read and live by them. It is not written that I should judge people even when they have a different sexual orientation than I and they shouldn't judge me. I'm not even going to judge those that love the kind of music that I hate. I'm just not going to listen to their music with them.
If they want to judge me for my predigest, that is OK with me; will be their loss not mine.2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;
every one of Jesus's followers believed they were living the last lays that Jesus spoke of.
I believe they would know better than we.
and I will keep reading those links, though I am a slow reader.That was my response to where you posted this : "The OT is after all the foundation upon which our understanding of the NT stands and must stay within the parameters of if we are going to understand it correctly.
Specifically, I was wondering why you would consider the OT the foundation, when God spoke to the fathers through the prophets, but spoke "directly" through His Son?I could be wrong in my perceptions, but I see the OT and NT as a sequel. Kinda like Crocodile Dundee 1 and 2. If Dundee was born and raised in Australia in Dundee 1, But in the sequel a third party says something different, we wouldn't reinterpret the first movie to that it would agree with this third persons description of who Dundee was. The second story concerning the same facts would have to agree with that which came first.
There are many stories in the bible where God is speaking to different people who are in different circumstances where it may appear to be conflicting messages. There may be instances such as this which can appear to be contradictory in nature.
But when speaking of prophesy, If in the older story gives a certain description of an event, and years and years later the same event is again described, I believe we should understand the latter prophesy in a manner as to conform to the first rendition.
And not immediately transform the earlier story in a manner as to conform to the latter one.
A foundation is laid, and then the house must lie upon it. If we build the house first how can we then lay the foundation under it?Okay I think I see what you mean, you were speaking "specifically" of prophecy and how it "logically" should align itself in a linear time fashion. I have a tendency to see scripture three dimensionally and non linear time-wise eg Jesus was born, "And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us,,,, “This was He of whom I said, ‘He who comes after me is preferred before me, for He was before me.
Yes, they are interesting to me and I thought someone like you, that studies or analyzes scripture, far more intricately than I do (I believe) would be interested;
Here is some more from wiki from various articles there:
Biblical Hebrew has been written with a number of different writing systems. The Hebrews adopted the Phoenician script around the 12th century BCE, which developed into the Paleo-Hebrew script. This was retained by the Samaritans, who use the descendent Samaritan script to this day
The Samaritans claimed that they were the true Israel who were descendants of the "Ten Lost Tribes" taken into Assyrian captivity. They had their own temple on Mount Gerizim and claimed that it was the original sanctuary. Moreover, they claimed that their version of the Pentateuch was the original and that the Jews had a falsified text produced by Ezra during the Babylonian exile.
Samaritan is a direct descendant of the Paleo-Hebrew alphabet, which was a variety of the Phoenician alphabet in which large parts of the Hebrew Bible were originally penned.
During the 3rd century BCE, Jews began to use a stylized, "square" form of the Aramaic alphabet that was used by the Persian Empire (which in turn was adopted from the Assyrians),[2] while the Samaritans continued to use a form of the paleo-Hebrew script, called the Samaritan script.
various wiki sources
- Deborah Sextonposted 10 years ago0
People get angry when I say the Jewish people are God’s Chosen people, and God calls them the “Elect”. They accuse the Jewish people of being arrogant, and racially prejudice.
They aren’t, but if they were, how is this any different than being anti-semitic? I’ve got to tell you, it’s not. And there’s plenty of that.
But the scriptures call the Jewish people the Elect, and the Chosen people, we/I didn’t make it up.
It doesn’t mean that as Jewish people, we are somehow closer to God.
In the Jewish understanding, being chosen leads not to being arrogant, but rather to humility. If it were some human king that chose us to be his special people, then your assumption would be correct -- we would become elitists. When a mortal power shows favoritism towards a subject, that subject will become more arrogant as a result -- the closer you are to the king, the more significant you are, and the more significant you are the higher respect you feel you deserve.
But the Hebrews, later called the Jewish people were chosen by God. And the closer you become to God, the more you sense your insignificance. While rubbing elbows with a human king, or any other leader, may inflate your ego, a relationship with God bursts your selfish bubble. Because God is an infinite being, and all illusions of self-importance fall away when you stand before the infinite. Being close to God demands self-examination, and self-improvement, not smugness.
To The Jewish People
Your humility is so deep, it doesn't allow you to accept that you are chosen. While most other religious groups are quite comfortable claiming that they are the best, the Jewish people will do anything to say that we are nothing special. Now that's what I call a Chosen People!
Deuteronomy 7:6
For thou art an holy people unto the Lord thy God: the Lord thy God hath chosen thee to be a special people unto himself, above all people that are upon the face of the earth.
Deuteronomy 14:2
For thou art an holy people unto the Lord thy God, and the Lord hath chosen thee to be a peculiar people unto himself, above all the nations that are upon the earth.
The Hebrews-Later called the Jews are the Chosen, are the Elect, is Israel, and Judah, and is the Afflicted Servant
Isaiah 45:4
For Jacob my servant's sake, and Israel mine elect, I have even called thee by thy name: I have surnamed thee, though thou hast not known me. (Jacob's name was later renamed Israel, so Jacob and Israel are the same)
Isaiah 42:1
Behold my servant, whom I uphold; mine elect, in whom my soul delighteth; I have put my spirit upon him: he shall bring forth judgment to the Gentiles.
2 Kings 17:20
And the Lord rejected all the seed of Israel, and afflicted them, and delivered them into the hand of spoilers, until he had cast them out of his sight.
Are the Jews the Chosen People?
By Aron Moss
“This is the idea of the Chosen People -- a nation of individuals who have been given the opportunity to sense G-d's closeness, hear His truth and relay his message to the world. All agree that it was the Jews that introduced the world to monotheism and a system of ethics and morals that has shaped the modern view of life and its purpose. And it is the survival of Judaism to this day that attests to the eternal value of this system” - Deborah Sextonposted 10 years ago0
Scripture indicating that YAHSHUA, (JESUS) - is NOT THE JEWISH MESSIAH
This is to show scripture, not to offend, or to convert anyone
Scripture References
In order to understand anything in the Torah a person has to look at the original Hebrew. You will see that the people who put together the Christian’s bible distorted, changed and misinterpreted many of the Hebrew words in order to fit things into their beliefs.
The two places in scripture that are good examples is: In Psalm 22:17 the Hebrew states "hikifuni ca'ari yaday veraglay" which means "they bound me (hikifuni) like a lion (ca-like ari-lion), my hands (yaday) and my feet (ve-and raglay-my feet).
The Christians translate this as "they pierced my hands and feet". Nowhere in the entire Torah, Prophets and Writings do the words ca'ari or hikifuny mean anything remotely resembling "pierce".
In Isaiah 7:14 the Hebrew states "hinei ha'almah harah veyoledet ben" "behold (hineih) the young woman (ha - the almah- young woman) is pregnant (harah) and shall give birth (ve-and yoledet-shall give birth) to a son (ben)".
The first Christians translated this as "behold a virgin shall give birth." They have made two mistakes (probably deliberate) in the one verse. They mistranslate "ha" as "a" instead of "the". They mistranslate "almah" as "virgin", when in fact the Hebrew word for virgin is "betulah".
Aside from the fact that if you read the context of that prediction you will see clearly that it is predicting an event that was supposed to happen and be seen by king Achaz who lived 700 years before Jesus! .
God would not give a man a sign to assure him, and then put it so far in the future (700 years) that he would never live to see this promised sign good morning oceansnsunsets and all
When I read through all the posts; seemed like most all has their good points.
Everybody is right a little bit.
concerning being a chosen people. I remember being "Chosen" by my 6th grade teacher to be made an example of. Being Chosen is a good and bad thing rolled up into one.
I believe that in order to understand most anything, we should keep it as simple as possible.
As Deborah has stated, I also believe Many of the words were grossly mistranslated intentionally for a purpose.
And some of what was probably translated correctly has been grossly min interpreted. IMO.
But when it is all said and done, I don't think this makes much difference.
Seems to me; this is the way it was intended. When a person believes the bible, and reads prophesy, we are reading future events which God has spoken into existence.
As with the story of the Tower of Babble. ????
Every body saying the same things and yet understanding as if everyone speaking a different language. Or something like that.
One more reason I don't post on here very often.Good afternoon Jerami, I sense you don't like to upset people, and post accordingly. That is fine and even very kind of you to do perhaps, but it will make it hard to know where you really, personally stand on things. Being a student of prophecy like you seem to be, you would have a lot to offer to others.
I hope you keep on posting, and often as you feel a mind to! I don't mind you disagreeing with me and won't give you a hard time for it. I think its a good thing for all of us to test our ideas against each other, as I don't want to believe things for poor reasons.
Perhaps God did allow his personal revelation to get full blown errors into it by humans along the way, and we can't trust the texts as we thought. I don't know that that is an idea I could support, because he seems to have secured it pretty well as far as I can see. My point in pointing out the inconsistencies was not to debate that point so much. It was just to point them out. To explain other Hebrew words, the Masoretic texts are used also. It seems to depend on the thread, topic, who is being responded to, and what side the person is on, etc. Not all would know this. When I used the same tools, with the same results, it wasn't ok. I think it is, and no one has shown why it isn't as of yet. I want to be shown wrong however, but it hasn't been done. Some just cease the communication instead. So I am talking to those that will talk to me about it, lol.Well the football games is over, Houston won; Baltimore didn't, season is over for Houston.
It isn't so much that I don't like to upset people as much as it is that I see and understand most every ones point of view. I might even agree whole wholeheartedly If I could express it differently puting a different slant on the point they are trying to make.
As hard as I try I am unable to express myself sufficiently for me to be understood as intended. I haven't had many opportunities to come down with both feet on one side of an issue and remain true to how I really feel about that issue.
I'll attempt to sum up my thoughts in a brief as possible manner, starting with Jesus; because he is what Christianity is allegedly all about.
Concerning how we should behave? ... In my "Red Letter" bible, those words which Jesus is quoted as saying, Is all that I need to know concerning how I should live my life and treat others.
I don't need to read Paul's interpretations as to what Jesus meant to say or would have said if given the opportunity.
In Matthew 23; Jesus is facing off on those scribes and Pharisee which were standing in front of him. (23:34) "Wherefore, behold, I send unto YOU prophets and wise men, and scribes, and some of them YOU shall kill and crucify, and some of them YOU shall scourge in your synagogues, and persecute them from city to city".
Immediately after this, four disciples come to him privately asking Jesus , When are THEY going to do those things. In this instance the word "Privately" carries great importance.
Talking to his four disciples, Jesus privately answers their private question.
Jesus continues. Matt. 24:4 "Take heed that no man deceive YOU".
Who should we assume YOU represents in this conversation?
24:9 Then they shall deliver YOU up to be afflicted, ( who is Jesus talking to here) and they shall kill YOU ( and who is he talking to here ?)
Maybe we should ask Deborah what other words could have been used in translating the original word used in 24:14 "world"
I suspect the same word Cyrus the great used when he said that God has given him All The Kingdoms of the World. Cyrus did not conquer all the kingdoms of the planet earth.
Jesus talked about a great tribulation and of his coming (again) in the clouds sitting at the right hand of power.
He then went on to say that "THIS" generation shall not pass till all these things be fulfilled. But no body knows what day or hour!
That is like me saying, "I am going to buy a new car this year, but I don't know what day or hour!
However, the church interprets every thing Jesus said in these two chapters to mean something entirely different than what is written.
Another thing I noticed ... In the book of Rev. AS SOON as Jesus arrives in heaven, still looking like a bloody lamb as if it had just been slain, (as if he had just then crawled down off of the cross) , Immediately takes the book and opens the first four seals.
And as soon as the seventh seal is opened ... nothing happens ! A period of time passes depicting a clear and present passage of time before the seven trumpets are handed out.
A separation of events.
The acceptance of this being a fact as being stated in scriptures has lead me down a long path reading what the scriptures are actually saying instead of blindly accepting those interpretations being taught by the church for the past 1650 years.
This took a decade for me to develop my own understanding (right or wrong ?) of what scripture seemed to be saying. This being accomplished, I thought I had all the answers and was greatly saddened because of it.
it took many years in trying to understand the ramifications for what I thought I had discovered. prophesy.
I think I have come full circle.
If we truly live by the letters written in red, we will have lived a full and prosperous life.
Just seems to me that if we can live a full and productive life, judging no one as being righteous or evil, we will avoid being judged.
We should also know that we are not passing judgment or punishing a fox when we catch it in the hen house eating our chickens when we kill it.
oceansunsets thank you for asking me to state my opinion. though I can't cover it all given an unlimited time frame.
Nothing is as it appears.Good evening Jerami. Since you like prophecy, I thought this may be of interest to you if you havent seen it before:
The Samaritans are adherents of Samaritanism, an Abrahamic religion closely related to Judaism. Based on the Samaritan Pentateuch,[4] Samaritans say that their worship is the true religion of the ancient Israelites prior to the Babylonian Exile, preserved by those who remained in the Land of Israel, as opposed to Judaism, which they say is a related but altered and amended religion, brought back by those returning from the Babylonian exile. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Samaritans
Ancestrally, Samaritans claim descent from the Israelite tribes of Ephraim and Manasseh (the two sons of Joseph (son of Jacob)) as well as from the priestly tribe of Levi...'
The split between them and their brothers; the children of Judah (the Jews) began during the time of Eli the priest, and the culmination was during the Kingdom of Israel and Kingdom of Judah when the Samaritans (then Kingdom of Israel) refused to accept Jerusalem as the elect, and remained on Mount Gerizim.
The Samaritans say that Mount Gerizim was the original Holy Place of Israel from the time that Joshua conquered Israel.
The mountain is sacred to the Samaritans who regard it, rather than Jerusalem's Temple Mount,
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mount_Gerizim
The Paleo-Hebrew alphabet is an abjad variant of the Phoenician alphabet.
It began to fall out of use by the Jews in the 5th century BCE when they adopted the Aramaic alphabet as their writing system for Hebrew, from which the present Jewish "square-script" Hebrew alphabet descends. The Samaritans, who now number less than one thousand people, continue to use a derivative of the Old Hebrew alphabet, known as the Samaritan alphabet.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paleo-Hebrew_alphabet
https://sites.google.com/site/interline … s-bereshit
Religious beliefs
- There is one God, YHWH, the same God recognized by the Hebrew prophets.
- The Torah was given by God to Moses.
- Mount Gerizim, not Jerusalem, is the one true sanctuary chosen by Israel's God.
- Many Samaritans believe that at the end of days, the dead will be resurrected by Taheb, a restorer (possibly a prophet, some say Moses).
- Paradise (heaven).
- The priests are the interpreters of the law and the keepers of tradition; scholars are secondary to the priesthood.
- The authority of post-Torah sections of the Tanakh, and classical Jewish rabbinical works (the Talmud, comprising the Mishnah and the Gemara) is rejected.
-They have a significantly different version of the Ten Commandments (for example, their 10th commandment is about the sanctity of Mount Gerizim).
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Samaritans#Samaritanism
- Deborah Sextonposted 10 years ago0
God's Chosen People
People get angry when I say the Jewish people are God’s Chosen people, and God calls them the “Elect”. They accuse the Jewish people of being arrogant, and racially prejudice, when someone mentions they are God's Chosen ones
They aren’t arrogant, or racially prejudice, but if they were, how is this any different than being anti-semitic? I’ve got to tell you, it’s not. And there’s plenty of that.
But the scriptures call the Jewish people the Elect, and the Chosen people, we/I didn’t make it up.
It doesn’t mean that as Jewish people, we are somehow closer to God.
In the Jewish understanding, being chosen leads not to being arrogant, but rather to humility. If it were some human king that chose us to be his special people, then your assumption would be correct -- we would become elitists. When a mortal power shows favoritism towards a subject, that subject will become more arrogant as a result -- the closer you are to the king, the more significant you are, and the more significant you are the higher respect you feel you deserve.
But the Hebrews, later called the Jewish people were chosen by God. And the closer you become to God, the more you sense your insignificance. While rubbing elbows with a human king, or any other leader, may inflate your ego, a relationship with God bursts your selfish bubble. Because God is an infinite being, and all illusions of self-importance fall away when you stand before the infinite. Being close to God demands self-examination, and self-improvement, not smugness.
To The Jewish People From Me
Your humility is so deep, it doesn't allow you to accept that you are chosen. While most other religious groups are quite comfortable claiming that they are the best, the Jewish people will do anything to say that we are nothing special. Now that's what I call a Chosen People!
Deuteronomy 7:6
For thou art an holy people unto the Lord thy God: the Lord thy God hath chosen thee to be a special people unto himself, above all people that are upon the face of the earth.
Deuteronomy 14:2
For thou art an holy people unto the Lord thy God, and the Lord hath chosen thee to be a peculiar people unto himself, above all the nations that are upon the earth.
The NT written for the Gentiles, says the Gentiles are the Chosen ones, not hardly, it was a position made by God for the nation of Israel, and Judah, and according to him, it is forever
Are the Jews the Chosen People?
By Aron Moss
“This is the idea of the Chosen People -- a nation of individuals who have been given the opportunity to sense G-d's closeness, hear His truth and relay his message to the world. All agree that it was the Jews that introduced the world to monotheism and a system of ethics and morals that has shaped the modern view of life and its purpose. And it is the survival of Judaism to this day that attests to the eternal value of this system” The Hebrew, the chosen people of God, chosen as an example that mankind, given every possible opportunity, including the direct intervention of God, will err. It would seem even the designate or name of "Hebrew" was not good enough as they later took the label of "Jew." Their favorite response to God "All that you say, we will do." Well, they did not, and the curses promised by God for unbelief has come upon them.
The Jew was the "example" of and for mankind and the Law was the "schoolmaster."
Hold on now, Gentiles! You haven't done any better. History has taught us that the sons of Noah, Shem, Ham and Japheth each had a shot at world rule and peace. Ham and Shem showed us nothing but failure. Now the Gentiles have their turn. Look around you. Is this what one calls success?
The Jew was the chosen people of God, but He is not through with them yet. Look to Israel. Great things are yet to happen there. And those Great things will be the precursor of the end of the "end times."
And God is still blessing those that bless His chosen people.______________________
If you wanted to show the Jewish people honor, you would stop calling them derogatory names like "Jew", People who are Jewish, especially those who are Jewish in heart don't like that word. It's Jewish. Only a Jewish person should call another a "Jew"
God's promises are forever, and the Jewish people haven't messed up anything, they are still God's Chosen people, and the Elect. Tell God he's turned his back on the Nation of Israel, see what he says
Good dayJewish are not special. They aren't "chosen", as much as you'd like to think you are. Maybe it's time to get off your high horse.
____________________________
It's what Scripture says, they they are Chosen. I never said special, you interpret the word chosen as to mean special. I didn't indicate it.
Chosen does not mean special it means: having been selected as the most appropriate for something
I'm sorry that your bias causes you to put incorrect definitions on words___________________
It's time you got off your rude horse
This thread is about God and scripture, and I'll quote from anything I wish
I'm not a chosen person, because I am converted into Judaism only, and not born into it.
I have no high horse
Sorry, once again you have your theology messed up. The word "Jew" is not a derogatory term. It is a descriptive, scriptural term, used by the writers of Esther, Jeremiah and Zechariah as well as the writings of Paul in the NT. We also find the term Jewess in the New Testament. However, the term "Jewish" is not a scriptural term as it is found nowhere in the Bible.
No you're wrong. I'm Jewish, I know.
Amazing out you know more about the Jewish than the Jewish, or so you think
From:http://www.ohr.edu/ask_db/ask_main.php/271/Q1/
"That said, however, it is indeed a fact that in English usage and literature, "Jew" is a "vituperative" insult. This is according the Oxford English Dictionary, considered the foremost authority of the English Language. "
From: http://forum.wordreference.com/showthread.php?t=861285
"Yes, Jewish means his culture while hes a Jew means that you are insulting the person of his culture".
From: http://www.wisegeek.org/should-i-say-jew-or-jewish.htm
"As a result, these attitudes have shifted the way in which people view the word “Jew.” as an offense
The issue is that “Jew” is often used as a pejorative. Antisemitic rhetoric refers to “dirty Jews” and uses “Jew” as though it is an insult, rather than an adjective, and as a result, it sounds jarring to hear someone referred to as “a Jew,” rather than “Jewish.” Furthermore, the word has also historically been used to describe being cheated out of something, as in “I got Jewed on that deal,” referencing a widely-held stereotype that Jews are greedy swindlers"
We can't all be wrong about what offends us_____________________
Well let's see, I live today. The term wasn't offensive in bible days, but those days are over.
I have asked you not to refer to the Jewish as Jews, it is derogatory, and it is personal attackWell of course it isn't derogatory. It is used by Jewish and non, all the time. If someone wanted to be really derogatory, they can use all kinds of words, Jew not excluded, nor the word Jewish for that matter. And you can tell by context and tone. I've not read all your posts but in what I have, I've never seen you be derogatory toward anyone mishpat.
I'm tired of this turned abound tactic that claims victimization, where not warranted. Seems like very petty bickering to me and people ought not feel manipulated by it. It's also what I've seen done when other valid points can't just be used instead._____________________
It is derogatory..try learning instead of disagreeing with anyone who doesn't see things as you do
Of course Jewish people use the word Jew, we're Jewish, we're allowed, non-Jewish people aren't allowed
I've known of black people playfully calling each other the N word, but I bet you won't call anyone that!
Please stop butting in, you have no idea what it's like to be Jewish, or what is offensive to us.
That is Hate speechThis is not about me needing to learn something from you though. I think your position on non Jews not being allowed to use the word "Jew" is illogical an unreasonable yet you maintain it after being shown better reason and logic. This is "ban bait" as many call it.
I can post on these forums, freely. Mishpat showed no hate speech and it's ridiculous to suggest using the word Jew is only derogatory if a non Jewish person is saying it. I'm responding to you because you address my post specifically. I avoid responding to your posts specifically, but the hate speech comment is over the top.
Also, please don't ask me to not speak to you then speak to me. You could then claim victimization again and that isn't playing fair. The boards here and threads are for all of us , and no one person can control them. I wouldn't speak so boldly on this if you didn't accuse many others, of what I see you actually doing to them. I would rather encourage to get back to more fair points and ways or ignore, or expect people to continue to rebut fairly to you. They aren't doing anything bad or evil in giving fair rebuttals, this is just how discussion and even debate works in general. You could then respond with fair rebuttals.
Disclaimer, no where in this post am I verbatim attempting to quote. These are my honest observations that seem to be observed by others as well. None of us gets free passes here.
Though I would like to truly discuss issues fairly with people like you, if it can't be done then what is the point in trying if I just get ridiculed, accused, the parameters keep changing, and I can't take what you say in one post to be necessarily your same stance in the next one? If this is upsetting when people point them out, and you choose to only find some way they must be in the wrong instead of addressing the points themselves, then what is the point of discussing with those if various views? I think there is a lot to be gained for all of us! My goal is to open up the lines of communication not close them._________________________
I posted links showing that I am not making this up, Jewish people don't like being called Jew by a non-Jewish person . . All you have to do is look it up.
Any derogatory remark against any race should not be allowed. Why do you think that this rule should apply to everyone except the Jewish. Why do you think that just because you are comfortable calling us Jews, that we should take it, regardless of how we perceive it?
Putting your disclaimer doesn't allow you, or give you the right to call us names. Plus putting a disclaimer and calling people things, doesn't apply after you've already learned it's derogatory
It doesn't matter how great you feel about calling us that, it's about how we feel.
Every Jewish person is proud to be Jewish, but Jewish isn't what Jew means in non-Jewish countries, or to non-Jewish peopleI don't buy your simple distortion of facts though. You have made a ridiculous claim that you can't back up. To back it up saying that Jewish people don't like to be called names is not making the point at all, but twisting it. Of course they don't like being called names. No group does. That isn't what is being talked about, yet you insert it. I see this.
Trying to distort this into me defending someone that called Jewish people a derogatory name, is immoral of you to do. One has to wonder, why are you doing this? I think, based on past discussions, this an exaggerated red herring, or other possible logical fallacy, to distract from some real points others brought up, in this case Mishpat. You see, I am not afraid of the punishment/reward thing I observe in the forums from those that engage in it. I think its a form of verbal bullying going on in fact.
People have been very patient, that I have seen. The thing is, one can't bulldoze their ideas through, and use sledgehammer rhetoric to make people "stand down" so to speak. If this were a playground, then there are ways with words that can be "bullying." I don't like it when I see it. I think good ideas, facts, logic, and reasoning stand on their own. No "bullying" or tactics needed. We can't all be right, all the time, its not even possible or logical to think so. Therefore, we all have choices of what to do if and when we are wrong.
I think its borderline slander, to keep suggesting hate speech of others, and saying things like, "Putting your disclaimer doesn't allow you, or give you the right to call us names." For I haven't called Jewish people any names. Please stop that. No one has called them derogatory names. This is not truth you speak, and is deceptive, and twisting things. To further correct your error, I think its NOT ok to call any race, any derogatory names. Who is doing the real damage here? The irony.
Once you stop speaking directly to me, unless these tactics change up, I will go back to not responding to your posts directly, for I find this and other things to be too dishonest of a manner to work with in discussion. If I saw that were to change, then I would reconsider this. So far, I am seeing a pattern when you and others disagree, and they don't end up apologizing and/or agreeing with you, especially if they are making good points with good reason, logic and back up for their comments. So the ball is in your court. I am hoping for improvement. If it were a game, its like suggesting that cheating to win is ok, when we all know it really isn't. What would be the point of playing with those people? Speaking a lot in general here too. These ideas from me, aren't being expressed here for the first time.
Btw, this isn't so personal, I just view it as a dangerous thing to engage in, for the set ups I see. It sets people up to be punished for simply disagreeing, by any stretch like this we see. Its not the only time either. So it almost scares people into not just backing down or not just agreeing, to avoid the treatment I want none of that.________________________
I said they don't like being called Jew, therefore calling us Jews, is calling us names. It's a simple premise
I don't care whether you see it as wrong or not, I and a lot of others don't like it, so please don't do it
It offends me especially since you won't quit, and just keep on and on
Are you aware of how things make you feel? So am I. How can you tell another person how they fee;? You can't
Here you go
From: http://www.wisegeek.org/should-i-say-jew-or-jewish.htm
"As a result, these attitudes have shifted the way in which people view the word “Jew.” as an offense
The issue is that “Jew” is often used as a pejorative. Antisemitic rhetoric refers to “dirty Jews” and uses “Jew” as though it is an insult, rather than an adjective, and as a result, it sounds jarring to hear someone referred to as “a Jew,” rather than “Jewish.” Furthermore, the word has also historically been used to describe being cheated out of something, as in “I got Jewed on that deal,” referencing a widely-held stereotype that Jews are greedy swindlers"
http://www.ohr.edu/ask_db/ask_main.php/271/Q1/
"That said, however, it is indeed a fact that in English usage and literature, "Jew" is a "vituperative" insult. This is according the Oxford English Dictionary, considered the foremost authority of the English Language. "
From: http://forum.wordreference.com/showthread.php?t=861285
"Yes, Jewish means his culture while hes a Jew means that you are insulting the person of his culture".Please stop the slander. I haven't called you that "word" yet you suggest I keep on and on! You posting links is not what you need to do here. To make your accusations true, you would need to show how Mishpat's simple use of the word in a non derogatory way, WAS actually derogatory to the Jewish people. I am not trying to tell you how you feel. Please stop with the untrue comments. I don't do that to you. I don't expect you to keep on and on with the false statements, just because I am not giving into you. You don't speak for all Jewish people everywhere, and haven't proven your point, but are making a leap. This all to show someone wrong, which wasn't even addressing their original points. This is how logical fallacies in arguments are hoping to work for the person needing to use them.
It is wrong of you to say I won't quit doing something I haven't done. Please stop.
You are continually assuming the pejorative use of the word, for a person that you were engaging with, that you didn't find other more suitable means to respond with. You are reasserting a poor argument. If or anyone had said, "I got Jewed on that deal" or "dirty Jews", then yes you could make the case. You are lumping a simple use of the word "Jew"in with those examples!! This only makes my case, all the more. Show exactly, in the context of the statement of Mishpats, that he did that, if he really did. You have not, and only seemed to accuse. This is a far better course than this other path.
If you are holding this strongly to this in this one case, and some other person somewhere in your earshot has ever said "Jew" that was non Jewish, and have NOT raised such a ruckus as you are here, then this isn't honest, nor consistent. Red Herring.I don't think anyone here has used the word Jew, with any more of a pejorative intent, than for example: any more of a pejorative intent of your use of the word Christian, right? Of course a person would have to be God to absolutely know someone's intent.
You're setting up yourself, by keeping on with this
- Deborah Sextonposted 10 years ago0
Mishpat
My response
Scripture Tells Us, The Promised Jewish Messiah will be a man, and not a deity. He won’t be half human, and half God, and he certainly won’t be God. No where will you find this teaching in the Jewish scriptures.
These ten verses in Ezekiel tell us that we can’t look on God’s face. We’ve studied this scripture in every possible way, using the four levels of interpretation of the Scriptures, called pardes, and these verses are LITERAL. You can not see God’s face and live. No amount of human flesh drawn taut across God’s face could prevent death if you looked on this face of brilliant light. So it goes to reason that Yahshua (Jesus) couldn’t be God, because they looked on the face of Yahshua, and lived
Matthew 8:20
And Jesus saith unto him, The foxes have holes, and the birds of the air have nests; but the Son of man hath not where to lay his head.
Yahshua was the son of man, and the NT calls him that, many times. But God clearly said that he’s not a man, neither The Son of Man that he should repent
Numbers 23:19
God is not a man, that he should lie; neither the son of man, that he should repent: hath he said, and shall he not do it? or hath he spoken, and shall he not make it good?
Ezekiel 33:13-23
13 Now therefore, I pray thee, if I have found grace in thy sight, shew me now thy way, that I may know thee, that I may find grace in thy sight: and consider that this nation is thy people.
14 And he said, My presence shall go with thee, and I will give thee rest.
15 And he said unto him, If thy presence go not with me, carry us not up hence.
16 For wherein shall it be known here that I and thy people have found grace in thy sight? is it not in that thou goest with us? so shall we be separated, I and thy people, from all the people that are upon the face of the earth.
17 And the Lord said unto Moses, I will do this thing also that thou hast spoken: for thou hast found grace in my sight, and I know thee by name.
18 And he said, I beseech thee, shew me thy glory.
19 And he said, I will make all my goodness pass before thee, and I will proclaim the name of the Lord before thee; and will be gracious to whom I will be gracious, and will shew mercy on whom I will shew mercy.
20 And he said, Thou canst not see my face: for there shall no man see me, and live.
21 And the Lord said, Behold, there is a place by me, and thou shalt stand upon a rock:
22 And it shall come to pass, while my glory passeth by, that I will put thee in a clift of the rock, and will cover thee with my hand while I pass by:
23 And I will take away mine hand, and thou shalt see my back parts: but my face shall not be seen. - Deborah Sextonposted 10 years ago0
Mishpat
You said Quote " Jesus is of the house/tribe of David/Judah through the line of Mary." End Quote
I'm afraid not.....He has to be from the Tribe of Judah.
The Tribe is inherited through the FATHER only, and never through the mother. It could not have come through Mary
You can't MAKE a square peg fit into a round hole
My husband is a Jewish Rebbe, born, and grew up in Israel, so you know more about Jewish Laws than he? oookkay
http://outreachjudaism.org/marys-genealogy/
Referring to Christians claiming Jesus as king of the Jews, they are asserting, in essence that Jesus was the messiah, and the final heir to the throne of David. But this is self-defeating because it undermines the Christian claim that Jesus was miraculously conceived of a virgin.
According to both Matthew and Luke, Jesus was born of a virgin. This claim, however, completely shatters the core Christian claim that Jesus was a legitimate heir to David’s throne and king of the Jews. The virgin birth myth undermines this fundamental Church teaching because tribal lineage is traced only through a person’s father, never the mother. This principle is clearly stated in th Torah in Numbers 1:
“And on the first day of the second month, they assembled the whole congregation together, who registered themselves by families, by their fathers’ houses, according to the number of names from twenty years old and upward, head by head”.
(Numbers 1:18) - Deborah Sextonposted 10 years ago0
________________________
What people say, says so much about them
The words people speak say more about the person speaking, than who, or what they are speaking about - Deborah Sextonposted 10 years ago0
¶ People who like to sin, and can't stop say: "All people sin, and can't keep God's commandments" They also claim God's laws were abolished ¶
§ People who don't know how to love, and hate people, and like to judge others, say: unconditional love is above humans, and no one can love without putting conditions on that love §
†Ω Paul was the same way.
Apparently because of his lies, the others knew Paul was a sinner. According to Paul, he was a Pharisee, and knew the bible well, but still asked why he was being judged as a sinner, just because he lied
Romans 3:7
"For if the truth of God hath more abounded through my lie unto his glory; why yet am I also judged as a sinner?"
Paul said: as long as the lies he told, resulted in God's glory, they were okay to tell
"For if the truth of God hath more abounded through my lie unto his glory; why yet am I also judged as a sinner?? †Ω - Deborah Sextonposted 10 years ago0
For Mishpat
You came in here dressed as a lamb, pretending to be friendly, and you mentioned your alleged Jewish friends
You said you knew my beliefs, but would like to discuss them. You stated you wanted to know the teachings of the Messiah in Judaism today
http://hubpages.com/forum/topic/127286? … ost2688892
http://hubpages.com/forum/topic/127286#post2686136
I responded with the answers to the questions you asked, and I stated that it wasn't to offend anyone, and I was posting it because you asked
http://hubpages.com/forum/topic/127286? … ost2687057
All along you were just baiting me
Here you're asking me what we teach in our religion about Yahshua, and you're pretending you are interested in what bible I read. You tried to make me think you were being sincere, and had good intentions, and I fell for it
http://hubpages.com/forum/topic/127286? … ost2687600
Though I knew by your words, that you were Christian, that you didn't agree with me, and did not believe as I do, it didn't matter to me, I was polite, and friendly, and I was willing to speak to you about it
http://hubpages.com/forum/topic/127286? … ost2687765
Then you came back, and asked again what we teach about Jesus in Judaism today
http://hubpages.com/forum/topic/127286? … ost2688008
I answered you and told you, that we don't believe in the Messiah, but I was polite, and said I don't mean to offend you. I believe I am one of only two, who has expressed the desire not to offend anyone, especially since I was the one being offended
http://hubpages.com/forum/topic/127286? … ost2688050
Still yet again, you came back, but this time you were getting really insulting, stating that the Jewish people must hold some kind of position on Jesus. You even said that you wanted to know, if Judaism has ever expressed any bitter verbal attacks against Jesus. You said that's what you'd like to see. I assured you we hadn't
See we go to Temple to worship God, not put others down. Is that what your church does? pick apart the other religions? How can we be bitter against a man who probably never existed. The only thing ever written about Jesus, is in the NT.. You even assured me that whatever I say is okay LOL
http://hubpages.com/forum/topic/127286? … ost2688252
I told you again, that we never mention Jesus, and that the Jewish Messiah was yet to come
http://hubpages.com/forum/topic/127286? … ost2688301
So you came back and said Quote "that faith it would seem, is what we both have regatding the Messiah" End Quote, and this was in reference to my comment that Belief is a Christian concept, not a Jewish one
Except you said faith, and I had already explained I was not speaking of faith, but belief
Your comment
http://hubpages.com/forum/topic/127286? … ost2688459
We came full circle back to your first words to me, all because you wanted to dispute what I said, even though you didn't understand it
http://hubpages.com/forum/topic/127286#post2686136
After this, I saw a wolf take off his sheep clothing
And all those biased against me, joins in, saying anything they want to me
and expecting me to continue being nice..I think I've shown a lot of Patience
Let me see you guys do it..at least I'm candid and not a sneak I'm just saying that "secularism" has nothing to do with believing or disbelieving in God. I was surprised that the creator of the hub seems to have apparently quite honed vocabulary yet he made this mistake?
It is the separation of state from religion, or simply the freedom to follow any religion.
Sorry didnt mean to patronize anyone, i'm just here to state my opinions-
1- I agree with the author about atheists, sometimes a few of them become over the top arrogant about their own belief or disbelief. They join in the conversation already in awe of their intellectual superiority and look down upon the believers.
2- Here what I have against the believers, they too are no sheep. here is what I find interesting. They always seem to KNOW the truth because it has been said or written somewhere. I have never heard any believer in such conversations saying there may be a possibility that what was written long back then might be wrong.
3-Science and scientists have openly said that the Truth is not absolute and they need to keep looking. The only reason to reject the concept of God and many others is the lack of any substantial proof and the contrary evidence as proven by science.
4- We shouldn't be an egotist about our belief of disbelief in God. We should listen to all point of views, and should never impose our views upon others.
5- All religion were created by men, nothing came from God (if there is any). So it is susceptible to flaws like all man made doctrines, even science. The difference is science accepts this.
6- Religion was created to make a human being a better person, and live life harmoniously with everyone. Currently, we are seeing the opposite.Separation of the spiritual from the physical as a metaphor for what secularist would like to see as separation of Church and State is the underlying concept of Secularism. In my view, human existence, both as physical and spiritual, should never be separated. Secularists separating church from state is just a metaphor for them to tease the physical from the spiritual component of human existence.
I don't think this was the real reason this word came into being. Either ways I don't know why you see it like this but where I live, I have seen only the religious seculars rather than atheists. It might be possible that the only secular people you have met are either agnostics or atheists. So your opinion arose from your experience.
Yeah I do believe many secular have a problem adjusting with their identity and yes they sometime start criticizing their faith without much knowledge. Please tell me what you think of it-
"It is not wrong to be proud of your faith"
http://parantapbhatt.hubpages.com/hub/Open-to-ideas
Going by the etymology this word was neither a tease for the agnostics, since very few lived in the earlier times, nor a metaphor of the physical and the spiritual.
Secularism, religious identity and spiritualism are not mutually exclusive and they can peacefully co-exist with each other.The veracity of your last sentence, has been proven beyond doubt over the years, but secularism has been trodding quite a diversionary path ever since the hard core secularists, have taken hold of the agenda to minimize , and indeed in some of their precincts, actually demolish the importance of spiritual beliefs. In that sense secularists in tandem with atheists have been very aggressive at pushing their ideology almost to the brink of rupture.
in all fairness, I have seen religious fanatics pushing their agenda more aggressively as compared to any atheist. In simple matters of human rights, religion takes over human freedom, for example, LGBT laws and the shared hatred for Gays or anything which strictly against the religious scripture.
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