And what does spirituality mean to you?
For me it is about being in harmony with my inner self as well as all those around me. Nothing more complicated than that.
Not new age at all, to begin with, this is what religion sought to do for society: to impart identity, a sense of community; of belonging and to teaches you right from wrong, humanise you, socialise you.
But religion also inspires chauvinism, breeds intolerance and creates a sense of the ‘OTHER’. This unfortunately is what religion evolved into.
i think that what is now being understood as spirituality was perhaps the original purpose of religion.
Very well said, Reena. Sometimes even I wonder whether we have all the religions in the world to divide each other but not enough to love each other.
Agreed, Countrywomen, all religions supposedly preach peace and universal brotherhood, yet all of them seem to inspire hatred and violence?
I agree only the first part of your comments.I don't think any religion inspire to hatred or violence.
i think that what is now being understood as spirituality was perhaps the original purpose of religion.
The essence of every religion is about your spirit- spirituality.
That is a very good way of looking at things. Be Good and Do Good would be my mantra.
Spirituality= your god self= holy spirit= great spirit= god =you.
Reena absolute agree to what you have to say. To me I would rather be spiritual than religious.
IMO, spirituality far outweighs religion. Religion s-u-x, (again, just IMO). I get called "religious", and a "religionist" blah, blah .
Care factor ZERO. Why? Because I am neither.
And do you consider Hindus/Buddhists who engage in Prayers/Meditations as Spiritual or Religious folks?
spiritual. Seems to me that religion is just a, what is a good term to use, religion is a way to sheppard the masses but spirituality is way more important than religion is.
Not to say that religion isn't useful in many respects but sorta hazardous when it becomes a mindless dictatorship when lead by people with no spiritual understanding.
You know, things like what it means to be human, how humans feel about things, how humans react to things, what makes us sad, what makes us happy etc...
Of course I aint one to talk, my religion is Love. Not sure if Depak Chopra coined it but I like it.
And like akadj, it doesn't bother me either when someone calls me a religionist for studying the Bible. Shucks, you could call Mr. Dawkins a religionist, and Mark a religionist etc.
I would think that all being a religionist means is that you look into it, study it a bit, like entomology.
Sandra- Very good answer. I wish there were many more like you having so much tolerance and understanding for others. You are so right about love being the one true religion and the process may differ but the goal remains the same i.e., to love each other and evolve to be a better human being.
Thanks Countrywomen for retrieving this debate from the jaws of personal jousting and a war of semantics about what constitutes 'sin'. IMHO 'sin' is just a term coined by those in charge of religion to make us all behave.
As for meditation being religion or spirituality, see my understanding of this is that religion is organised and proscribed. It tells you what to do when and how to attain your redemption.
Whereas being spiritual is finding your own path, figuring out what brings you peace, and being in touch with your own conscience. It is your own conscience that will tell you each time when you are doing someone else harm, you don't need religion to tell you that.
BTW I am not Hindu, I am a Zoroastrian, my religion doesn't prescribe meditation, it has a very simple tenet: "Good Thoughts, Good Words, Good Deeds" and I find that meditation (modified to what works for me look here if interested http://hubpages.com/hub/Spirituality-Versus-Religiosity) works for me.
Spirituality is about looking within, religion is about looking without. Any thoughts, peeps?
My mother is a Parsee ( connected to the Grant Road Agyari in Mumbai)Reena and Zaroaster was generally lost in contemplation and meditation and that's when he merged with god ,the light.-got enlightened.
Prayer is an important part of Zorastrian religion which is simply meditation.
He claimed "when two became one" which is something many years later the philosopher Friedrich Nietze repeated.
His masterpiece "Thus Spoke Zaratushtra" is about his understanding of the great prophet Zaratushtra with his own enlightenment.
Finding your own path or walking the path of a previous master become the same thing.Eventually it boils down to meditation or one pointed concentration.Religion and spirituality are interconnected and not something different from each other.
Enlightenment is the same for all.
Excellent point, Mohit, I also agree that the ideal prayer is meditation. But how much prayer is actually the kind of concentrated centering and effort that it should be? Mostly it is recitation, going thru the motions and following a bunch of rites and rituals on auto pilot, that is certainly not what the wise prophets preached or envisaged.
It take time Reena, by continuous repetition the focus and concentration starts and developes.This with time leads to perfect concentration or one pointed concentration.
"eye of the needle" Jesus "when thy eye be single" Jesus "third eye or inner eye" hindu mystics.
"seven breaths of one pointed (or perfect concentration) will get you enlightened."Patanjali.
Meditation is also very difficult in the initial stages and most are unable to meditate for even a short span of five minutes,It was the same for me.With practice and perseverance this time span encreases and so does ones concentration.
Meditation is not something one stops practicing even after enlightenment.
Many masters have been against ritual for the very reason you mentioned as the purpose is not understood.
Exactly Mo. As I was reading this thread I was trying to figure out how to say it but you already had. If you read back through this thread we see quotes from different religions, Hindu, Zoroastrian, New Age, Christianity and more. Even atheism now that it is being organized. We use a religious base for our spirituality, some from very old religions and others just forming from parts of other religions like New Age.
If we understand the rituals of certain religions then we also get spirituality from it. Like mdawson17 said the "bible says we must have an intimate relationship with Him", Him being Jesus for Christians. That's spirituality. We learn about spirituality from religion and religious books whether Christian or other. For me religion and spirituality are very interconnected because I need the priests (spoken about in the Bible) to receive the sacraments needed for salvation (also spoken about in the Bible). The sacraments, Baptism, Reconciliation, the Eucharist etc. are spiritual.
You make a good point...receiving spirit from understanding these books. Of course I regard them a "precious" in my own way and by my own personal spirit becoming full when looking or meditating on the reasons, the meanings, and how it applies to myself as a human person with a spiritual disposition.
Like asking the question, why did Jesus love all man, all sinners etc... I like to say I was a very spiritual person before I read the bible, the gita, the qur'an etc. but that spiritual insight was based solely on my personal understanding but the more that I read, the more questions I asked, the more people I conversed with, how these things relate, and even with things in science; there was way more to understand about what the spirit and the reason there are religions, how some religions become dictators yadda, yadda, yadda and like a rush of wind one day it clicked and I have never looked at the world the same since.
Though it is really hard to explain, it's almost like I got some new eyes.
Dear Sandra our lives humans are very short.You cannot go and meet all the masters ,many have departed a long time back.Their writing can come to you in a form of a book and you can pick up the essence the vibrations thousands of years later.
A spiritual book is meant to reiterate the truth to you along with representing different subtle truths of life and give you guidance on life before and after enlightenment.
By saying religion and spirituality are not connected and the same its like saying Jesus or the Buddha didn't teach about the spirit.The Holy Bible, Holy Quran , Holy Bhagwat Gita and Holy Avestha are spiritual books.
I agree if that is you chose the spirit of God than that is your spirituality I also believe that having religion is having politics in the belief of Christ! The bible says we must have an intimate relationship with him! I believe having such a relationship is being spiritual not religious!
You must be in harmony with your Creator=God=Allah. So religion is more important.
Religions are teachings about the spirit. There are many religions but only one great or holy spirit.Is religion greater than Allah or Jevovah?- NO.
All religions guide towards Allah and Muhammad (pbuh)
So they are spiritual teachings.You can be spirtual without following any prophet but you cannot be religious and say its not spiritual.
What the heck you really mean by spiritual ???
Every one of us is spiritual, when a child comes to this earth, he is very spiritual and knows the One God - Allah very well. These are the later teachings and affects of surroundings who make him Non-Believer. For that, Allah has sent Messengers and the final Messenger is Prophet Muhammad (pbuh). Following Prophets is as compulsory as following Allah. Prophet's life acts as the explaination and implementation for ordinary humans like you and me. Without following Prophets you can never become a complete 99.9% sane human or spirit. If a human does not rob, steal, rape, loot, plunder then it is considered as a good human or a good spiritual person but that is not enough to lead the life peacefully as an indivial and as a group, may be it can work in jungles and deserts where monks and priests do not have to interact with another human or even an animal BUT there are 100s of issues and things which a person encounters in his / her daily life where he acts as a son, father, brother, cousin, relative, friend, colleague, leader, statesman, administrator, elder etc etc. So following the 100% spiritual and rightly guided Prophets became documented as compulsory by God-Allah.
As you are the first Freemason (you declared in an earlier forum) i have ever encountered in my life. May be Mark and others also belong to Freemasonry. I would like you to clear your mind about this organization at http://hubpages.com/hub/FREEMASONS-IN-A-NUTSHELL and get rid of it as soon as possible. And if you want to explain anything then you are welcome. By the way which degreee mason you are???
Prophet's life acts as the explaination and implementation for ordinary humans like you and me.
Usmanali when will you drop your ego and see things for what they are? Look at the facts.
If I am ordinary man then so is the writer of the Holy Quran or Muhammad - big difference between both of us don't you think so? You are the ordinary one and not me.
Like I have said before try writing on god and take the help of all the Muslims, Christians and Hindus in the world who think like you (my prophet and religion is the best) and I challenge you all together to write a better book.
Yo say you are spiritual but non believers on this forum have a better understanding than you and congratulate me rather than give me attitude for getting ranked so highly.
I joined the Freemasons but didn't get the time to attend any of the meetings and resigned within a year.
Why are you dragging Mark into this?
You are a beginner in spirituality and have got a lot to learn.When you get enlightened or come across Allah you will be able to understand that religions and prophets are not fanatics.
If a human does not rob, steal, rape, loot, plunder then it is considered as a good human or a good spiritual person but that is not enough to lead the life peacefully as an indivial and as a group, may be it can work in jungles and deserts where monks and priests do not have to interact with another human or even an animal.
I live in the city of Pune and not in the jungles or mountains and I lead a good life where I don't rob, steal rape, plunder etc.
So following the 100% spiritual and rightly guided Prophets became documented as compulsory by God-Allah. -
I guide humanity the same way other prophet have, that's my job
Your job is to get paid by Freemasons and promote false propaganda of humanism, materialism and evoution. I don't think that you have resigned Freemasonry rather the poetry book which you have written is evident that Freemasons were behind the little hype you got from the newspaper. Even your poetry leads away from God just as the poetry of John Lennon - Imagine their is no religion
You said i am a beginer in spirituality, may be, but you are not even born in spirituality
Finally, look at the trafic system of Pune, it seems that they are just evolved from monkeys
I joined the masons about a year back and never attended their meetings or got or asked for any help from them.
My poetry is god just like the Quran.
You said i am a beginer in spirituality, may be, but you are not even born in spirituality
So some one ranked with the Quran is not born with spirituality and has no ideas what spirituality is?,that does insult Muhammad as well, the Quran must be about everything except spirituality.
Getting ranked over Dante, Gibran , Kabir etc makes for good news.Try getting ranked in top 10 poetry, top 10 religious-philosophy and top 10 spiritualism and you will also get articles in the newspapers-Its very normal.
Pune comes from the word Punyanagri or the land of good deeds. You have many master both Hindu and Mulsim fakirs around Pune , the likes of the great Dyaneshwar.
My job is to unite the religions.
All the religions are already united and all the major religions unanimously agree about following ALLAH, Last and Final Messenger Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him), Holy Qur'an and Traditions of Prophet Muhammad and his companions (peace be upon them all).
Uniting religions and uniting people of the world under NEW WORLD ORDER is a deception of Freemasons. If you have some knowledge then discuss Freemasonry in the following.
EPISODE I - http://hubpages.com/hub/FREEMASONS-IN-A-NUTSHELL
That's good to hear Mo. But your idea that all religions are equal does kind of fall in line with masonic thought. usmanali81's series of Hubs about Freemasonry is rather well researched.
The masons have a rule that religions are not to be discussed.
From what I know is masons were based on te teachings of Zaratushtra and they had to be secretive in early days as they would have been prosecuted by the church.There are many good people who are masons in India .
You are right, Freemasons have nothing to do with God-Allah but they have a lot to do with nature=mother nature=great architect of the universe=god=antichrist(Dajjal). They were procecuted by church because they were building evil machinations against monothism.
The great architect of the universe is is the anti christ- whats wrong with you?
The were persecuted by the church as the church was scared of losing its power over the people.
I know many people who are freemasons and they are good people.
Mo Zaratushtra or Zoroaster is also Nimrod. From the book of Genesis chapter 10 we see that Nimrod or Nemrod was Noah's (Noe) great grandson through Cham (Ham) and Chus. Yeah Noah of the great flood.
http://www.drbo.org/cgi-bin/d?b=drb& … &f=s#x
Nimrod is believed to be the first human being since the flood to be called a god and is associated with the construction of the Tower of Babel.
From this web site about Nimrod besides being identified as Zoroaster Nimrod is also identified with a complex of Mediterranean deities including Asar, Baal, Dumuzi and Osiris.
Mo you have already identified Zaratushtra or Zoroaster "the first prophet" as being connected with Freemasonry. So this quote from the above web site about Nimrod should convince you that Nimrod and Zaratushtra are one in the same.
doesnt it what you mentioned according to ears and eyes
So if the masons are based on the teaching of Zaratushtra then they are looking for enlightenment.
Thanks brother, you are great in recognizing the truth.
Religion without spirituality is hollow and meaningless. A religious person is always inclined towards spirituality. A religious-minded person is never seen being materialistic, for he treats this world as something fleeting and temporal. All the pleasures and sorrows of this world is shortlived. Therefore, he seeks immense pleasure in spiritual happiness. He knows that Hearts find comfort only in the rememberance of God.
appreciate you BUT dont you think religious minded people is being materialistic too. materialistic towards GOD.
appreciate you BUT dont you think religious minded people is being materialistic too. materialistic towards GOD.
your materialists definition is WRONG. have some details in http://hubpages.com/hub/FREEMASONS-IN-A-NUTSHELL-III
In short, MATERIALISM is the belief that matter is eternal and uncreated, so grab it as much as you can.
Religion is never against the spirituality - I'm a Muslim and i never found any conflict between religion and Spirituality; even some times when i go wrong; my inside tell me that you are not doing Good, will you believe i had never knew those things that is it right or wronG?
Usmanali please read rizrazi post and he is a Muslim-
I'm a Muslim and i never found any conflict between religion and Spirituality
I am also not in conflict with religion and Spirituality but the forum is on "What is More Important, Religion or Spirituality?" and my reply on page 4 was You must be in harmony with your Creator=God=Allah. So religion is more important.
RELIGION IS SPIRITUALITY. Weren't Muhammad teachings spiritual ?
The prophet Muhammad and other prophets did not teach spirituality and the Holy Quran is not a spiritual book according to you.
Prophet Muhammad (pbuh)'s teachings act as a super set and spirituality acts as a subset in his teachings. Qur'an came as a book of guidance as well as spirituality. Qur'an is a religious book which acts as a guide to mankind, it also has information related to modern established science like BIG BANG so i can not say that Qur'an is a science book. Similarly spirituality is encompassed by Qur'an and the traditions of Prophet Muhammad and his companions (peace be upon them all). Qur'an gave rise to ISLAM which is Deen-Arabic word meaning "way of life" which encompasses religion as well as spirituality. So, Muslims do not treat Qur'an as a spiritual book consisting of yoga, mantras, going into forests in search of God like monks or priest, praising mother nature, poetry bla bla bla, NO, it's not like that.
That's the reason i asked you, your definition of spirituality and your answer was NONE.
And the spirituality which is based on pagan beliefs or which leads to other than ONE God is totally forbidden. That is why on page 5, i said “Every one of us is spiritual, when a child comes to this earth, he is very spiritual and knows the One God - Allah very well. These are the later teachings and affects of surroundings who make him Non-Believer. For that, Allah has sent Messengers and the final Messenger is Prophet Muhammad (pbuh). Following Prophets is as compulsory as following Allah. Prophet's life acts as the explaination and implementation for ordinary humans like you and me. Without following Prophets you can never become a complete 99.9% sane human or spirit.”
Therefore, today, after you came to this earth, ISLAM as a way of life becomes the most important thing on earth which also make you spiritual and the base line is "There is no God but Allah and Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) is the last and final Messenger of Allah". Even this messege is there in Bible, Hindu and Parsee scriptures.
I'm a Muslim and i never found any conflict between religion and Spirituality-
you fanatic this message is not in these books.
the Vedas also mean science or wisdom and its called a spiritual masterpiece.
I have said this before I never followed any of the prophets teaching and got enlightened -fused with Allah or god.
Do you know the meaning of enlightenment? I don't think so.
Islam copies Hindu and Parsee philosophy so why should I convert to Islam ? I refuse to do so.
You need to follow the masters teaching which are oneness with all, something I understand and follow normally.
Imagine Muhammad with a sword his hand saying follow me or I will kill you
they are too confused, and wont accept your answer, but lets keep on trying, it is a MUST to accept it, for the reason i am here
Rizrazi, I wouls suggest that starting your reply with "Look Dear" sounds sexist and condescending.
I would consider myself to be spiritual, though am connected to my religion of birth...... I wish we were all the same religion, so we could be united, There is only one bible, only one god of the bible, but all religions do not agree,,,,, I actually find that sad...... Finding the truth is not easy, I like tolerance, of others religions, it has a warm feeling
I think you can incorporate on god, it is only certain people who deny other religions gods. I do not believe in any religion but consider myself spiritual.
Thank you Brenda for your admirable thoughts,I wish it were possible to have the same bible then at least we would not have to suffer the religious hatred.But still we all are united in the name of humanity.Humanity is our convergence of interests.
Its not that religions have got it wrong and say there are many gods, its man who involves his ego and says mine is the true god.
The prophets on whom religion are based understood the oneness of all, there message was that we all are part of a super entity which has no beginning and no end, is beyond time , has supreme intelligence and power, is pure love and is our true home. Drop the ego, be still and you are one with this super entity-god.Meditation or one pointed concentration is required to merge with god.
"Humanity is our convergence of interests."
Amen to that.
sorry so you are saying there are many gods....
there is only one god of the bible, and everybody who professes to believe in the bible dont agree....
I know there are many other gods out there, is there not one truth
The IS one Truth, and no Earthly religion has it, or can have it, for it is ineffable.
There is one god and many god-men or prophets and saints.
Bramha, Allah, Jevovah, Vishnu, Ahuramazda, Shiva...
What’s in a name?
A way to identify the same,
Geography, language is mainly to blame.
Neither, I believe most non-believers used the word "religion" to dismiss or discredit the idea of God and who he really is. And others use the word "Spirituality" to embrace all and nothing. I personally believe having a true relationship with Jesus Christ and understanding what he died for and following God's Word is the most important thing anyone can do. Only then can you understand what love, mercy and faith really are. I have faith in the One True God, not man and their religions.
I wrote on this:
http://hubpages.com/hub/Is-your-God-rea … ake-him-up
I am happy that you have the strong faith that you do; but I disagree with you when you say that people "use the word "Spirituality" to embrace all and nothing". Like i said before spirituality is about being at peace with yourself and with people around you, if that includes other people's God and their religion, so much the better. That is what tolerance is all about.
In order to be at that place of peace, you need to essentially be a good human being and to me that is more important than any religious belief.
We are not good people we all have sinned: either lying, stealing, hating someone, lusting after our own desire, coveting, committing idolatry, and/or adultery, We are simply not worthy. And no good deed will gain you any favor with God(it like trying to bribe a Judge). I personally believe having a true relationship with Jesus Christ and understanding what he died for (our sins and to give us the chance to be saved from damnation) We must repent and turn away from our past sinful ways, and trust in Jesus Christ(faith) only then can you understand what grace, mercy and love really are, beacuse God bestowed them upon us when he sent his Son. When God enters your heart he makes it anew, you become more compassionate and loving, good deeds aren't "deeds" they're simply who you are now.
Every good deed gains favor with God. Spirituality is far more important than any religion. If you have no spirit you have no god, not the other way around.
I haven't the slightest problem with telling the entire world I am a sinner, good god even some religions teach that your born a sinner instead of innocent.
Let's rehearse this again, Jesus is for sinners. Say a million times if you have to... Jesus is for sinners. Jesus forgives us sinners because that is what we are. Sinners.
Forgive any sin and it will be forgiven of you, any sin you do not forgive will not be forgiven of you.
So if you can't forgive the people you call sinners for any sin they may or may not have committed then you cannot expect to receive the same.
I love sinners, they my peeps which pretty much makes everyone my peeps cept for the righteous ones, they not my peeps but I am their peep.
What are talking about, I didn't even mention religion. I don't like religion it's meaning has been tarnished and corrupted by the actions of man. I hope you're kidding.
We all haven't done those things - except, I'll give you that an awful lot of us say we're sick so we don't have to go to work or say we're busy so we don't hurt the feelings of a friend who wants to come visit. So, with the exception of relatively minor (and sometimes even caring) lies, we all haven't done all that other stuff. There's no doubt a lot of people do some of those things, but - really - a lot haven't done any of them (except, again, the "little white lie" thing).
There are many people are are "good". They aren't good because they think someone will send them to hell if they aren't, and they aren't good to make up for bad they've done. They're just good, decent, caring, people who don't have a shred of "evil" in them (even if they tell the rare "white lie"). People who have done those things like to think everyone else does them, so they don't feel so rotten about their own mess-ups. It's actually pretty easy to live life without doing the things you mentioned, and a whole lot of people do it all the time. Some people are actually good. To me, thinking that nobody else can possibly be good amounts to not respecting "God's creations" (people), many of whom are just plain good, decent, kind, beings. I don't think religion OR spirituality are all that important for people who are, by nature, good and decent and caring people. If there is a God I don't think He cares if someone tells their boss they'll be late for work because their car broke down. Religious people talk about God created man in his own image and likeness, but at the same time they'll say nobody is good.... "image and likeness" would, I'd think, include the soul (since, according to religions, the "soul" is a part of every individual).
For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace. Romans 8.6
That stuff kills me.
Spiderpam - we have not all sinned. We have all done wrong, but sin is a religious construct. We are not all sinners. We are people. You believe that you are a sinner. But don't project that onto everyone else. You inhabit a world of sin, forgiveness, redemption. I don't.
Sin in biblical not religious, there is a major difference.
You are entitled to think the way you do and so am I. Be blessed
I just wrote on this.
Interesting hub. It doesn't explain though why sin is not a religious concept. In it you just talk about how religion is getting a bad name. How does that add up to sin not being a religious concept?
Because the word God does not mention the word religion, but it does mention sin and its consequences. And too often people confuse Religion with God.
Just flagged your hubs as stolen from other sources. Dear oh dear. Since when did it become alright to steal other's words and publish them as you own?
Isn't that a sin or something?
No - the words in your hub are stolen from elsewhere. I have an issue with people stealing other people's writing - seeing as I make a living writing. And you are a thief. Sorry - that is the cardinal sin as far as I am concerned. Thief.
Whatever Mark I always site my sources. Liar!
LOL - I see you have added a link to where you stole it from now. You are going to burn in hell for that.
Mark, I find this very funny, you gotta be what 60-70 years old, but you spend most of your free time debating with anger about something you say doesn't exist. How can you be mad at nothing? I'll never claim perfection and if/when I make a mistake I try fix it. It's called being humble, You may scare others Christians from this site, but I'm not going anywhere.
OK - so your stealing other people's writing and then preaching to them about sin is what exactly?
I'll never claim perfection and if/when I make a mistake I try to fix it. It's called being humble.
Don't let him bother you, Spider. He's not nearly as intimidating as he'd like to think he is.
Thx fierycj, I really find him kinda funny and kinda sad. I'll just have to pray even harder for him.
I am thinking you are the one you should be preying for. Seeing as you are the one stealing and preaching.
I do, I'm not perfect. No one is no matter what you think yourself, I think it's called Pride, I think that's a deadly sin. Watch Out Mark "All senior citizens need Life Alert"
Hmm. OK - sorry I caught you stealing and preaching at the same time. God will forgive you.... oh wait a minute, no He won't. Awww too bad. Stealing is a sin and you are going to burn. But - please be sure and tell us how we are the sinners.
There's this one verse, though - where the word 'religion' is mentioned. James 1.27. "Pure religion and undefiled before God and the Father is this, to visit the fatherless and widows in their affliction, and to keep himself unspotted from the world."
Interesting definition of religion there, huh.
'Trivial' referring to my input of course, not to your 'profound' input. I read your new hub. Good night
Anything "in biblical" is religious, because the Bible you refer to belongs to one particular religion.
Because the word God mentions religion once James 1.27. "Pure religion and undefiled before God and the Father is this, to visit the fatherless and widows in their affliction, and to keep himself unspotted from the world."
too often people confuse Religion with God. http://hubpages.com/hub/Religion-vs-God
The truth of any spiritual or holy book like the Bible , Quran or Bhagwat Gita belongs to all of humanity and is not restricted to any group or religion.
Ah, now I get it. Para said that we make mistakes, we are not sinners.
Pam says we are all sinners, (though I don't mind a bit being called one).
But further down after Marks comments with Pam it looks like sin is done intentionally and mistakes are just mistakes.
Kinda I left a source of my hub unintentionally due my compter crushing like 3 times. If Mark wants to call it a sin i'm okay with it.
Yes and no.
Sin is our "falling short of the glory of God". His perfect holiness is what that refers to. So, NO man/woman is "holy and/or perfect." We all make mistakes and commit wrong. This is either intentional or accidental.
We are therefore sinners, NOT because we do wrong, but do wrong BECAUSE we are sinners. Denying that changes nothing.
so sinner is a proper term for "ya aint holy"? I can dig it.
Honoring the Lord, they G-d is all that is important. Under his Holy Mountain thou shall find peace.
earnie, if you don't mind my asking, what exactly is your conception of God that you are so often and eagerly rejecting?
Not my name tksensei, but to answer your question it is not my conception of god that I reject.
Let's put it another way: What, specifically, is your conception of God?
Why do you say that tk? You have no concept of my "self" I think maybe you are just a smart arse!
Religion and spirituality are interconnected but I'd also have to agree with usmanali81, religion is more important. Without religion we wouldn't have anything to be spiritual about.
If you don't mind me asking, Mike. If this were true, then why does God or Jesus intend to do away with religion? And also, if this were true, then isn't the belief in religion and adherence to the "laws" the very reason the Jew's cruxed Jesus?
If this were true, then why was it so important to make it known the decent of the Holy Spirit into Christ and then the saying, "this is my begotten (meaning taught) son whom I love and have chosen etc..", and also if this were so, why then would Jesus tell them man who believed without seeing that he is already blessed?
And if this were true, then why does the Spirit always come first? By this I mean, without Spirit (so it says) you cannot understand and there needed to be the Holy Spirit before there was ever any religion. right?
I suppose you might view religion as more important because you receive the spirit after words but I tend to look at it as, first you receive the Spirit and it's continual guidance when understanding religion, other wise you might not be "guided" to even want to understand your religion in the first place.
Who told you that God or Jesus wants to do away with religion? When His kingdom comes there won't be a need for religion because Jesus will be living with man. Is that what you mean?
The Jews had Jesus crucified because He said He was able to destroy the temple and after three days rebuild it. The temple was destroyed when Jesus was crucified and three days later He was Resurrected. He was the temple that He was referring to. Basically the Jews had Jesus crucified because they didn't believe that He was the Messiah. Jesus fulfilled the Mosaic Law and gave us a New Covenant, that's why we don't follow an eye for an eye or stone adulterers any more.
When John the Baptist Baptized Jesus in the Jordon we read about the decent of the Holy Spirit in the form of a dove onto Christ and a voice from heaven, God the Father says, "This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased." Note the Trinity in this picture, the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit. Then later Jesus tells His apostles to Baptize them in the name of the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit.
Jesus said something along the line of "a man who believes without seeing is already blessed" just after Thomas doubted that Jesus had been Resurrected. Remember when Jesus shows Thomas His wounds Thomas says "My Lord and my God".
I don't fully understand these last few paragraphs. We wouldn't even know about the Holy Spirit without the Christian religion. We wouldn't have the Bible without the Christian religion. We wouldn't be able to receive the Holy Spirit through Baptism and the other sacraments without the Christian religion. Jesus said that He would send His Holy Spirit to guide His Church. That happen on what we call the first Pentecost when the apostles received the Holy Spirit in the form of flames above their heads and they went out and converted 3,000 Jews that spoke different languages. The Catholic Church celebrates Pentecost Sunday as the birthday of the Church, when Christ's Church was first formed. This is the beginning of Jesus Christ's religion.
I don't know what else to say other than what comes first the chicken or the egg.
Obviously the Holy Spirit existed before the Christian religion but we wouldn't know about the Holy Spirit without the Christian religion. The Holy Spirit and spirituality are not the same.
Right Mo, religion is not greater than God. Religion is a tool to show us the greatness of God. So we should be greatfull for religion.
Right Mo, religion is not greater than God. Religion is a tool to show us the greatness of God. So we should be greatfull for religion. -
correct its a path laid down by great spiritual masters who connected with the supreme being or god.
The Holy Spirit and spirituality are not the same.
Learning about and trying to make connection with the holy spirit is spirituality.
That's a couple of times in a row that we are agreeing eh Mo.
It can be either or neither or both.... It depends and differs for each person.
Usman, Not only assuming but even going on to the extent of Degree of Mason is preposterous...Don't put your stupid articles as proof...They are nothing more than delusions of a sick mind. Your Prophet was as sick as you are. I wonder how you can take a pedophile/incest lover seriously. Get a life.
Mr.Mohit- Now you can't be serious. Do you really believe you are a prophet? I thought you write spiritual poems. I have no respect for Muhammad and doubt he is even a prophet. He was a pedophile/incest lover. At least Jesus was a nice dude even if some fundamentalist Christians are wackos like the Islamic dude Usman.
Yes I am serious,the first recorded prophet Zarathustra was a spiritual poet and so was the lat one Guru Nanak.The Holy Bible , Holy Quran and Holy Bhagwat Gita have poetry in it.Poetry is simply the most condensed for of philosophy which comes when the human is in tune with god.Literary pundits call it a mental exercise of the highest order possible and carried out only by the greatest of sages.An ordinary human doesn't have the knowledge or energy to carry out such a task.
Muhammad was not a fanatic like Usmanali is making him out to be,their customs were different but he taught great truths had great wisdom.There is a debate whether Muhammad came across an angel or saw god for himself.
Similarly you have some Christian and Hindu fanatics which doesn't make their prophet a fanatic.
John how many people do you know of who have got ranked alongside the Holy Quran and Holy Bible? Have sacrificed many years of my life in order to spread the message of god.
Mohit, Chill out. I don't know what ranking you are talking about. And I don't think Bible or Quran are great books.....I have no idea about eastern religions either. I would rather consider Einstein or Newton as "Prophets". I am twenty and haven't gone to Church in a while...make it 2 years now. I find mostly religious folks to be nut cases who think they know everything. If religion helps a person to be tolerant and peaceful then I have no problems. But look around Museum guard got shot recently....another Doctor was killed in a church. Now religion just makes me sick. And that dude Usman really pisses me with his superior attitude which is condescending. And I have read some stuff about Mohammed and which makes me wonder whether he was even a Prophet.
Cool Jon, there are just too many frauds or nutcase who are ruining the name of religion and the prophets with their violence and fanaticism.
If religion helps a person to be tolerant and peaceful then I have no problems- this was the very idea but some have corrupted it.
You seem to be a cool guy, Mohit...unlike some religious nut cases. I wish we could share beer and have this talk.
I feel the same about you and maybe we could have a chilled beer together some day.
Many have told me no one will be able to make out your spiritual side as you portray such a different image.I am pretty cool
This debate (euphemistically speaking) has been fascinating, and some of the thoughts articulated would most certainly cause a riot back here; just as well people on this debate cannot see and touch one another. Phew!
I am not sure that a lot of people here really get what spirituality means (or rather what my humble understanding of it is); for many it is some new age mumbo jumbo when in fact it is only about being a good human being, being at peace with one self as well as with others.
It's no good being religious (saying your prayers and visiting whichever house of God you go to and loving your particular God) if one is not going to try and evolve into a better human being and to try and be more tolerant and understanding of one's fellow humans.
If you feel no compassion for others; especially those unlike you, then I don't see that you have got anything valuable from your religion.
Reena- My religion is better than yours Or my God is better/true God mentality has been the cause of countless wars and deaths throughout history. I hope one day we all will learn to be loving and kind to one and all irrespective of there beliefs.
No, your history is a bit weak. Even the Crusades were labeled as holy war but the real intension behind was really DARK just on the basis of personal jealousy against the Last Messenger Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him).
Thanks but no thanks for the history lesson. I know what sources to rely and your inference about my "weak" education may be true but then I wasn't stressing on that point. I was trying to talk to Reena about peaceful coexistence. Have a good day.
LOL, Countrywomen, peaceful coexistence is not on some agendas at least but yes, to me that is a big part of spirituality as well as religion because I see religion as the biggest socialising factor.
Religion can indeed be a very positive socializing factor. Both in India/US during Muslim festivals like Eid we used to greet each other have seviya or Christian festivals like Christmas we used to have Cakes/sing carols. Then during Hindu festivals like Holi/Diwali we would all play with colors/fire crackers. Even in US "religious festivals" are a great occasion to mix with other South Asians (we have Pakistanis, Bangladeshis, Nepalis and Srilankans). After all we have more in common that unites us then little that divides us. Of course we try to keep politics at a little distance when we interact on such occasions.
Religions are important but some people just can not notice that they all the same (religions). Spirituality I would prefer
For the fanatics its false. For the one who understands god , religions and spirituality its true.
FANATIC- someone who thinks his prophet and religion is the best and the whole world should convert to his religion.
"Its is fine to be born into a religion but not to die with one:"
Swami Vivekananda - because god doesn't belong to any one religion only.
Spirituality as we define it right now is what the 'religions' were actually supposed to be. Before all the killing and the sects and the propaganda.
Precisely! The prophets were wise men who preached their wisdom in order that people could learn to be good human beings and learn to live in peace and harmony. What is now being done in the name of religion is the exact opposite!
The question posed by this hub has f/all to do with Freemasonry for gawds sake give it away usmanali81, no matter what the hub is about, all we ever see is your freemason agenda.
If Freemasons have got influence in every nuke and corner then we have not other choice axcept discusing them.
Are you a Freemason like Mohit???
This whole any freemason thing is getting tiresome really, for me freemasons are a harmless bunch who like to get dressed up and indulge in a bunch of playacting. So let them! Usmanali's pranoia is inexplicable and completely off track. As for Mohit being a freemason, can you not READ man? he said he is NOT one. So do us all a favour and give mason bashing a rest!
The following quote of the Master Mason Necdet Egeran clarifies the misconception or myth that Masonry is a charitable or harmless organization:
“Some Masons even understand Masonry as only a kind of half religion, half charitable fraternal institution where they can establish pleasant social relationships and treat it accordingly. Others think that the purpose of Masonry is only to make good people better. Still others think that Masonry is a place to build character. In short, those who do not know how to read or write the sacred language of Masonry understand the meaning of its symbols and allegories in this way or some such similar way. But for a few Masons who are able to go deeply into it, Masonry and its goals are quite different. Masonry means a revealed knowledge, an initiation and a new beginning. It means leaving an old way of life and entering a new and still nobler life….Behind Masonry's elementary and basic symbolism there is a series of revelations that helps us to enter a higher inner life and to learn the secrets of our existence. So, it is in this inner life and the entrance into it that it is possible to reach the Enlightenment of Masonry. Only then does it become possible to learn the nature and conditions of progress and evolution.”
Its about the Light -from darkness to the light like all religions teach.I fail to understand what you find evil in this philosophy.Its a lot better than you will have seven virgins in heaven when you die.
I think the Quran is highly over rated and books like "The Glass Bead Game" Herman Hesse, "The Book of Mirdad" Mikhael Naimy, "Kural by Tiruvalluvar and the Bhagwat Gita are far superior spiritual books.
You should read these books to get a better understanding of god and spirituality.
They are good because if they are not good they get booted off hub pages and they would miss that little white dog who does indeed talk a lot of sense hello....
What is a Jinn? I was reading this morning that a Jinn came to Muhammad to give him his message.
So - have you found some beliefs that are even more irrational than yours? Jinn = Djinn = Genie. As in bottle. Rather like being given tablets of stone only the same.
No child abuse involved - far as I know.
Just in case usmanali81 doesn't see this post in the other thread I figured I should post it here. I'm not saying it is good at all.
Or probably more.
You misunderstood the post on Zoroaster completely. Nimrod or Zoroaster was the first human after the flood to fall away from God to be worshiped as a god.
Will do at the same time f--k this topic as I am no more a mason .
If you are mason then why are you ashamed of declaring it. It means there is something wrong with Freemasons or there is something wrong with you
You are seriously dumb and thick skinned. I told you before I joined, never attended any meetings and resigned within a year.
So that means I was a mason and now I am not a mason-comprende?
if you are not a Mason then why are you promoting the Masonic Teachings. May be you are a Honorary Mason.
If you asked a man, you'd ask "what do you think, spiritually"?
I believe feelings don't come from the spirit, but the soul. They may be triggered by the spirit, and expressed in emotion.
Whats the difference between spirit and soul?
I'm an Atheist, yet I consider myself one of the most spiritual, moral, kind-hearted individuals you will ever meet. I would never bomb an abortion clinic in an attempt to kill those who work there; I would never put a bomb in my child's book bag so she could kill people that don't happen to believe like I do; and I most certainly would never sexually molest young children whose parents just listened to me lecture about morals hours before. Organized religion is....well....it's just not a good thing...
I mostly agree with you. But the point where I disagree is that there are just good/not so good folks in any religion or even with no religion. I guess I prefer to look at each individual for who they are rather than where/what they come from.
And you are SOOOO right! I guess what I mean by "organized religion" being such a bad thing is that it has a tendency to take away that individuality. I know plenty of good people whom are advocates of myriad religions. I don't think we would have too many people in the world strapping bombs to their babies if there wasn't some "organization" making them believe it was the "right" thing to do. If everyone just live by the "Ten Commandments" and never spent another day in church, this world would be a whole lot better place to live in.
Well thinking, feeling and acting are different aspects. Anybody who stops thinking or feeling about oneself as an individual and then acting based on some external inputs leaves a lot left to be desired. But at the same time I have seen wonderful people who involve in charity or great works take for example Mother Teresa or Gandhi one is a Christian and the other a Hindu but both in there own peaceful way have brought changes in the society. What I am trying to say is that love/kindness could be developed either internally or through external means which includes "organized religions". And just because somebody shot a guard or some people bomb others doesn't make the whole religion bad. I guess my question would be is religion bad per se or some of those so called "practitioners" bad?
once again countrywoman, you are absolutely correct. it isn't the "religion" so to speak that makes these evil people do what they do. They obviously are not fit for society and would have done what they did (or something equally as bad) anyway. But the "organization" of religion can take its toll on people that might otherwise not be so harsh. Take for example Joan of Arc...one of the most devout persons in history...burned at the stake because she wouldn't let the "organization" tell her that her individual relationship with her God was wrong (as crazy as she may have been). Or Jesus, perhaps, who, really, was crucified for trying to enlighten the stagnant Jewish sect which had sold out. These acts weren't being perpetrated by "one bad apple" but rather by the "organization". The Inquisition, The Crusades...more people have died in the name of "religion" than for any other reason in history. If the "organization" didn't exist, then people would have no excuse to lash out on its behalf. I'm a firm believer that most people don't need the clergy to tell them what is right or wrong.
Thanks for some very sane views expressed here. I think that the problems start when other extraneous considerations like power, politics and chauvinism enter the equation of religion.
AS far as it is people following the tenets of all religions (bar none) it is fine; because all religions preach peace, loving your fellow humans, not causing hurt ect. But when religion is interpreted to further other agendas, THAT is when the problems start.
Reena- Thanks for appreciating our conversation. Yes you are right politicizing religion seems to be the biggest problem.
OTWS- It maybe sometimes inappropriate generalizing "organized" religions along with mob fury. For example for decades Dalai Lama is heading an organized religion peacefully for a right to live there way of life in Tibet. I agree there have been agendas in the past history. And it may overtly appear religious but in reality seems closer to economical/political agenda for using Guns/Swords for expansion. Just my two cents.
hmm ... you are an atheist then you forgot to upgrade youself to agnosticism who started believing that there is God (ONE) but he does not have to do any thing with us.
Thanks Reena. We used to stay in Dhanraj Mahal(close to Gateway of India) across the street from Regal theater for a short while when my father was transferred to Dockyard. We used to have lots of Parsi friends. I still remember during Navroj having Dhansak and some dry fruits sweets(too bad we are vegetarians)...LOL. Anyway I have always seen Parsis to be very hard working and truthful folks. Of course great industrialists like JRD Tata and Adi Godrej exemplify these traits a lot.
We were neighbours, I used to live in Evelyn House, center building facing the sea between the Taj and Radio club.
I guess I am already giving away way too much information than what I bargained for when I joined HP. Maybe we can take this conversation offline (email maybe).
And I used to work not far from there; at Flora Fountain when I was a lawyer. Cafe Mondegar near Regal and the Jehangir ARt gallery cafe 'Samovar' were our absolute fave lunch hang outs. Gosh! SMALL world!
Spirituality is more important. You don't need some organized religion to tell you how to live your life. All you need are your beliefs and convictions.
This question seems loaded... there is no wrong or right answer. It is what is important to you (yourself) that matters.
And, humanity and humanism are the same to you?
Well as far as Mr.Usman is concerned anything other than Islam has to be evil. Be it humanity/humanism/zionism/freemason.
No, not according to me but according to themselves.
Themselves??? I know many good people who are Freemasons and they are definitely not fanatics.
How about the Tatas and the chief justice of India? Some of the top lawyers and surgeons in the country as well.
and what do you mean by themsleves??
The ideas, which these Masons persistently studies and tries to indoctrinate to society are nothing more, than deceit. Masonry's philosophy stems from sources such as the myths of Ancient Egypt and Greece, and in their eagerness to transmit these myths to society, wrapped in the package of science and reason, Masons deceive both themselves and others. In an age of globalization, this is the role of "Global Freemasonry." One verse in the Qur'an about the unbelieving people of 'Ad and Thamud indicates the situation of Masons: "Satan made their actions seem good to them and so debarred them from the Way, even though they were intelligent people." (Qur'an, 29: 38)
Being human is humaity, wouldn't you be one? And, you confused it with humanism!
Humanism, as per laymen's interpretations is an idea which brings the notions of love, peace and brotherhood. Philosophically, Humanism revolves around the concept of humanity as its only focus and goal is to call human beings to turn away from Allah (God) their Creator. In short, Humanism is a system of thought that is based on the values, characteristics, and behavior that are believed to be best in human beings, rather than on any supernatural authority (Allah - God)
Moreover, humanists maintain that modern science supports these claims. However, they are totally off the beam and irreverent.
Interesting blog although I'm a little late to be jumping in here on this discussion re human spirituality vs religion.
Here's my take on it:
God did not create religion. God created people. People created religion. People also created the egotistical fanaticism associated with religion.
Religion divides people, it is the cause of much violence, hatred, war and destruction. It is worn like a badge of authority to be presented in the face of advesary. Many religious people are intolerent of any religion except their own. They are closed minded and defensive. They are not necessarily loving people even as they speak about loving others. How many people do you go to church with who are the worst gossipers you know, the most judgemental, the most influencial, the richest, the proudest - the least likely to offer genuine compassion and support when the church is not looking.
Human spirituality is broader, it recognizes and respects people from all walks of life regardless of their age, gender, race, or religion. It is often the path of those who seek the "truth" and live it. It is based upon doing what you know to be the right thing, living in harmony with the earth and it's beings, harming none. It means practicing what you believe every minute every day, to do otherwise is impossible because it is so deeply ingrained in you.
I am not religious. I am spiritual. Do I believe in God? Yes. Do I think it is my job to judge those who don't? No. Each person's choice is between him/her and their creator.
I believe it is my responsibility to treat each person with dignity and respect, to live a kind life and to walk gently upon this earth.
Suffice it to say that if we are in existence, we are likely spiritual 'things' to begin with. I give 'spirituality' the honor of religion's institutional feasibility. Without it, manifestations...religion, philosophy, mores, beliefs...couldn't even exist.
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