Divine Intervention Contradicts Free Will?

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marinealways24posted 14 years ago
-I made a response to a comment posted on one of my hubs. I feel that the response proves Divine Intervention false by contradiction of Free Will. Here was my response to a creator that intervenes.

"You and I both know that we were "created" by our mother and father, however, this doesn't prove that there was intervention outside of our mother and father. I think there is a "great" reason for not having divine intervention on a physical level. Let's say your mom and dad is your divine intervention throughout your life.

They would make your decisions and control your entire life, not just childhood if they "kept" intervening. This would not be free will."

I would like your thoughts on whether divine intervention is proved false or contradicts free will.
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  goodfriendiamposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  I have to agree with ya. Parents need to let children go and explore things on there own. Set boundaries of course, but then just let them go to figure things out for themselves. As for divine intervention, I believe there is deff a divine intervention in our lives, but He can only do so much, because of our freewill
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  marinealways24posted 14 years agoin reply to this
  I like the new picture! I think "any" intervention would be a contradiction of free will.
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  Mishaposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  I think I am more with Denys on this. They are not mutually exclusive as I see them currently.
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  marinealways24posted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Do you mean neither have "set" definitions?
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  Mishaposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  No, I think they both have their place. I am not ready to discuss this in any detail yet though.
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  marinealways24posted 14 years agoin reply to this
  That's fine, thanks for adding Sir.
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  goodfriendiamposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Well take for example, you tell your children they may play in the yard, but don't go on the road, you set up boundires right? But of course being a child your curiosity got the best of ya so you venture to the road, you look and there is nothing coming right? Just as you go to step out to see whats on the other side, lets just say for arguments sake, you have this sense not to do it. Something ain't right, something is trying to get your attention not to go there. Boom, You got two choices. Go or stay. I think this would be called divine intervention. So like my new pic do ya? Ya I kinda like it myself. Thanks Marine
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  marinealways24posted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Yes, excellent new pic and you are welcome.
  
  -On the example you used, we could call that voice our conscious correct? If we have divine intervention in every conscious decision we make, I think this would also be a contradiction of free will. It would be like having parents in your head on every decision, where I think the conscious comes from. If we had help on every decision through divine intervention, why would we need to rely on ourselves?
  
  If we had divine intervention, why would anyone rely on medicine instead of faith?
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  mcbeanposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  I fail to see any connection between divine intervention and free will. Who is to say that any 'creator' wanted us (their creations) to have free will. It must be assumed that any being capable of creation can do as they please. If they were to choose no free will and an elephant trunk growing out of our heads it would be so.
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  marinealways24posted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Do we not have free will to end our life on demand? This is free will. You don't have to live if you don't want to. Is this not logical to say that we have free will?
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  Angel Of Loveposted 14 years agoin reply to this
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  vinnysousaposted 14 years agoin reply to this
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  marinealways24posted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Thank You!
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  mdawson17posted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Divine intervention is in fact sent from heaven and all were created from God almighty so therefor we are of a higher divinity!
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  marinealways24posted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Nothing is fact, just assumptions.
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  sandra rinckposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Who says divine intervention doesn't come with a choice?
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  tantrumposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  And then you say
  if that were true then we wouldn't have rapist, murderers, child molester etc... they would be too afraid but they aren't so it doesn't really work out.
  
  There's your choice
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  tantrumposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  You're contradicting yourself
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  marinealways24posted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Alright, If we made a choice to hope for divine intervention, we would be contradicting our own free will. We would be hoping a unknown power guides/makes our decisions. This would still be contradicting free will in life if another made our decisions and path.
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  lenny brioxyposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  My opinion on the divine is that people seem to always consider only the good side of miracles ( or paranormal acts ). This is why this type of intervention forms such big arguments. Every one gets peeved when what some call God doesn't cure all things. Some go so far as to swear off the entire doctrines using arguments that state such things as "where the heck was he when...".
  
  IMO people tend to overlook the "black magic" energy.
  
  Does swearing off white magic automatically make one a subscriber to black magic ?
  
  Just a question to ponder as we continue to battle each other for material possessions and fill our bodies with whatever sources of energy the physical world throws at us.
  
  I admit that I am guilty of the above. I smoke, drink, and maybe I even look at pictures of naughty ladies...maybe. I might even lie about the truth to that if someone uses it against me.
  
  Just my opinion...free will does not contradict divine intervention, it just adds fuel to it...good or bad.
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  marinealways24posted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Very well thought. I think you have thought of this question already before. lol
  
  How about those that ask for divine intervention and are left on an empty tank? Were the white favored over the black? Why did one receive divine intervention without the other? Ahhh, now this brings in favoritism along with contradicting free will. How is it decided which ones to help and which ones not to? This would be favoritism.
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marinealways24posted 14 years ago
lol Where are all the answerer's? Not a hard question.
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  tantrumposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  divine intervention contradicts free will, when we give 'divine intervention' free access to our life
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  tantrumposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  
  Any intervention contradicts free will.
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  marinealways24posted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Thank You Sir. I'm glad you understand what I am saying.
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  tantrumposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  it's very easy to understand !! 2+2 =4 Next question !
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  marinealways24posted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Ok, this one will be more of a statement. Since it is there in reasoning and logic that divine intervention contradicts free will, the bible is also claimed divine intervention that contradicts free will. Free Will is not taught, it is learned.
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  tantrumposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Free will you learn the first time you decide to do something by your own.
  I don't understant the bible part. what du mean ?
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  marinealways24posted 14 years agoin reply to this
  In the reasoning I used to say that divine intervention is a contradiction of free will, I think the bible is the exact same thing, a contradiction of free will.
  
  If your parents wrote a book that told you what decisions to make in life and how to live your life, they would be contradicting your free will, correct? If they told you to live this way or else! They would be influencing the thoughts and free will of your choice, contradicting free will. correct?
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Valerie Fposted 14 years ago
Divine intervention doesn't contradict free will if we are the ones requesting it.
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  atomswifeyposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  very good point there
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  marinealways24posted 14 years agoin reply to this
  I thought it was believe or else? I didn't know there was options to request or not. If you request divine intervention instead of medicine for one of your dying children, which would you take the chance on, faith or medicine?
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  grunkpunkposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  That is such an interesting question for I have 3 children and really belive in Spiritual healing and Natural Remedies...but I would say that I would use medicine! Wow really gets me thinking!
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  marinealways24posted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Thank You for being honest.
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  Make Moneyposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Both, but Divine intervention first. Medicine can not help without Divine intervention anyway, whether you pray for it or not.
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  goodfriendiamposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  I have to agree with Mike, I can remember, quite a few years back,that I personally got so desperate, I was very "sick" in my head. That if I didn't get divine intervention, on what I should do, I would have gone mad. So I dropped to my knees, and began to weep and cry out to God, I said Jesus save me! And do you know in an instant he was there, it was the most beautiful thing, I had peace surrounding me, like I was in some sort of bubble, and nothing could touch me. Clarity on what I should do, came in an instant also. That's when I got on the phone, and called my husband and my mom both. I needed someone to "watch" my child. Anyways my husband took me to the doctors to find out what was wrong with me. And the doctor put me on anti-depressant medication. I thank God for saving my life that, that day.
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  Make Moneyposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  That's a beautiful example of Divine intervention goodfriendiam.
  
  All we need to do is ask for the Comforter in Jesus' name and He will be there. What a reassuring thought eh.
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  marinealways24posted 14 years agoin reply to this
  I agree that faith in a divine purpose/reason for life is comforting. I would like truth and the truth isn't always comforting.
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  goodfriendiamposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  No it isn't it is down right painful.
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  marinealways24posted 14 years agoin reply to this
  More painful than saying there is no purpose for life? I don't think so. This would make someone feel pointless.
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  goodfriendiamposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Yes I agree
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  marinealways24posted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Alright, if your kid was dying of cancer and needed medical treatment to survive, why not keep him from the doctor and rely on prayer? You would rely on prayer instead of medicine, wouldn't you?
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  Make Moneyposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  No, like I said I would rely on both. Consider the fact that God gave us plants and herbs for healing as well. The fact that pharmaceutical companies change the make up of those plants and herbs so they can put a patent on their drugs is immaterial. The plants and herbs used for healing still come from God. Doctors and medicine do not heal without Divine intervention. Often doctors these days do it for the money but good doctors are called to their practice.
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  marinealways24posted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Ahh did the bible tell man to make medicines out of plants, or did man tell man in the seperation of religion for science? If everyone was religious as biblical times, we would be burning animals and using prayer to cure disease instead of using science and medicine.
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  Make Moneyposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Yep it's in the Bible, that's why man has been using plants and herbs for healing for thousands of years. Yeah and then man told man down through the generations. Separation of religion for science? I didn't know there was such a thing. No the burning of animals for a sacrifice is condemned now, it went out with Jesus, the sacrificial Lamb. There are actually more religious people now than in biblical times.
  
  Now wouldn't that just tick off a non-believer. You would think it would be enough to throw them into a tantrum.
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  tantrumposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  A bit hard to go 'through' me, makemoney !
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  tantrumposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Makemoney :
  I hate to do this ,But you ask for it !
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  Make Moneyposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Oh you caught me. You are right, I did originally spell throw as through. I forgot about that. And I didn't even catch what you were meaning when you said "A bit hard to go 'through' me"
  
  Love can be humorous at times.
  
  No offense 'My Friend Shiyloh'.
  
  By the way say hi to your friend for me.
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  marinealways24posted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Or drive one insane!
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  My Friend Shiylohposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Love can bring one to the end of ones self if the self yields to love.
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  marinealways24posted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Did your friend tell you that? Learn something for yourself instead of pretending to be the love prophet.
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  My Friend Shiylohposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Love is not pretending.
  No, I am not anything, I have no title, nor will you put one on me because I do not receive it. Love is not a title or rank, nor does it need a label.
  I am simply just not speaking for myself about myself.
  I am only speaking what I have learned from love in experience.
  Have you found fault with the words posted?
  Love sees all things, the good and the evil.
  You said "how can you see the positives and not the negatives"
  Love said it sees them all and continues to love. That is what love is.
  Love is not blind or pretending here.
  If I have offended you, please state how.
  
  If one refers to a friend and calls love his friend, how do you find fault with that?
  
  I answered your honest question and you said you did not understand the statements I made or the question I asked and that you wold get back to me.
  What is your answer sir?
  You said it made you "think"...how do you fault love for that?
  Love is trying to speak to you in only love and you toss rocks?
  
  You are free to feel as you wish, love will not intervene with against your freewill sir.
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  marinealways24posted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Yes, you have offended me. You speak in 3rd person as love. All you have is your idea of love, not everyones idea of love. You refuse to write any negatives that can be found within love proving you to be phoney. I think you are wannabe love prophet. I'm not buying it.
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  My Friend Shiylohposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  If I have offended you by speaking in the name of love, then in that name I ask your forgiveness sir.
  
  This is not a defense, just a reply, love needs no defense. I am only trying to help you understand because you seem to want to find fault sir.
  
  I speak in the name of love and not on my own behalf. I am speaking about what I have learned about love. I have said now 5 times that love “sees all things (pos. or neg.) and continues to love." That is what love does because it is not shaken by circumstances.
  
  Any negative you have written has been addressed with patience and love sir.
  I am a wannabe nothing. I have had to learn to live outside my own self and live within love.
  
  You say “all you have is your idea of love, not everyones idea of love.” Well sir, what I state is what I have learned from love, if you find fault with any lines posted herein, please point out the fault sir.
  
  You are obviously free to share what you know about love.
  Rather than just toss out blanket statements, be specific, what has been written that you find fault with?
  
  I have said to many times, I am no prophet, I have no title. I am merely sharing what I have learned about love through practice with my wife of 30 years, my 3 children who are all living on their own, my friends, relatives, fellow workers, strangers, etc...
  
  So why would you assume I have no idea about the negatives?
  Love is love, not changed by positive or negative. It cannot fall from it's place sir.
  
  If it makes you feel better, should I say I, me, and not use love?
  Others have tried to find fault too, and when I explained further, they apologized sir. Perhaps reading again what has been posted elsewhere in the name of love would be beneficial to you sir?
  
  I do not think I am love, rather I speak in the name of love.
  When I speak out of love, nothing is taken personally because I keep love the focus and not me, myself and I.
  
  Love is a rose, so beautiful to behold, so painful to be careless with.
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  marinealways24posted 14 years agoin reply to this
  "Separation of religion for science? I didn't know there was such a thing."
  
  I think religion and science separated when individualism started. Religion relies on faith. Science relies on logic. Ok, if making plants into medicine is in there, why is this magic or divine? Is it so impossible that someone couldn't have discovered plants from medicine from experimentation. lol
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  Make Moneyposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Yeah I'm sure some stumbled upon the healing aspects of plants and herbs but seeing the garden of Eden had to be somewhere in the middle east it all had to start there. Science relies on logic. Religion relies on faith and logic.
  
  You are believing everything that I am telling you, aren't you marinealways24 ?
  
  If not is there even any sense in continuing this discussion?
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  marinealways24posted 14 years agoin reply to this
  In response to your last comment, I know it was just sarcasm, but it's not true. A conversation doesn't have to agree on everything to go forward. It only has to be open to agreeing and being humble enough to admit when wrong on a topic. I do disagree with you that religion uses logic, then again, every individual has a different idea of logic. The only reason I think any logic would be used in religion is for control of belief.
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  Make Moneyposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Yeah I guess that smiley at the end of my last comment wasn't called for. Well nobody is forcing me to follow the Catholic Christian faith but I still think it is logical. Do you not think that we have reached an impasse with this discussion? What else is there besides agreeing to disagree? There is not much sense in continuing if it is going to turn into an argument because we both know that is just a waste of time. What do you think, what else can be said that hasn't already been covered in this discussion?
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  marinealways24posted 14 years agoin reply to this
  I don't understand religious or not how anyone can disagree that divine intervention is not a contradiction of free will.
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  Make Moneyposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Well Valerie covered this eloquently with one sentence in the very first reply to your opening post on the first page.
  
  It is that simple my friend.
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  marinealways24posted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Do you think we were created to rely on intervention or to rely on ourselves?
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  Make Moneyposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Both
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  anjalichughposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Very true. Besides, it can help us wade through difficult waters.
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rednckwmnposted 14 years ago
uhhh, since when does soemone else's actions have any bearing on your own free will? choose to accepet the "intervention" or not...
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  marinealways24posted 14 years agoin reply to this
  If you accept the so called intervention, it is not free will. Does this not make sense? Even your so called "choice" of intervention is not free will.
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  rednckwmnposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  I think that choosing something is free will. Althoug, someitmes the "choice" seems unfair. for example, right now, I have a choice. To sit here and be foolish on forums, or go drink gasoline. Drinking gas will kill me. So, I make my choice...be foolish on forums. Just becasue there are results to your choice, does not mean you had no choice.
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  marinealways24posted 14 years agoin reply to this
  uhhh, If someone killed you tomorrow, their actions took your free will. Does that make sense?
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  rednckwmnposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  sure, that makes sense, to a point. my point is that was thier free will, and it wasnt divine..just some other guy. You do have free will, but so does the other guy, and you wont always agree...like, sure, someone killing you leaves you no choice, but you had a choice to be at the place where it happend. wich ultimately lead to your death. the uhhh part was just me being confused, sorry.
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  goodfriendiamposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Ya, but the one that got killed, must have sensed something to get himself/herself, in or out of the the predicament he/she was in, in the first place. wouldn't ya think?
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  rednckwmnposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  You would hope. But this does not always happen. Or maybe, people DO get 'feeling' and CHOSOE to ignore them?
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  goodfriendiamposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Very true I remember many times having that feeling, sometimes I would listen to it. And well others times I wouldn't and most of the time when I didn't I got exactly what was coming, usually bad. ugh!!!
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  marinealways24posted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Ty for responding. If a child was dying and had faith that divine intervention would save him rather than medicine, do you think divine intervention would keep the kid alive?
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  rednckwmnposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  ok. im getting confused,sorry. i am not so sure devine intervention even exisits. i feel like you just asked a new question. ill keep reading....
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  SirDentposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  If the child had complete faith yes I believe that God would heal them. The problem is that in the day and time we live complete faith is unheard of, (I am speaking more of myself than pointing fingers at others).
  
  Things are so easy to come by these days that we do not rely upon God for anything hardly, unless we are diagnosed with cancer or some other ungodly disease.
  
  Without the spiirt of God, there is no life. The spirit quickens(gives life to) the flesh.
  
  PS: I had a problem with the quotes in this reply so if I have the wrong person as quoting the top portion, please forgive me.
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  marinealways24posted 14 years agoin reply to this
  You say yes, that God will heal them over medicine as long as the child has faith?
  
  I'm sorry, but this is going to be disrespectful. That was quite an ignorant remark you made. What if the child had no "taught faith", would God not favor the child? You would let your kid die in prayer rather than try medicine to save the childs life? Is this human to you? Have you not heard of the innocent kids dying on the news for faith over medicine?
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tantrumposted 14 years ago
got it !!!LOL! of course the bible is the supreme contradiction of F Will
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  marinealways24posted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Does this not prove the bible as a contradiction of free will through logic and reasoning in turn proving the bible as false divine intervention?
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  tantrumposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  the divine intervention is there for the ones that want to believe it. Of course they lose the free will in the process
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  marinealways24posted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Do we agree that free will is learned, not taught? If so, even a believer, why would they think free will is taught?
  
  For the ones that do believe, why do they not rely on divine intervention instead of medicine? There would obviously be no need for medicine if divine intervention was true. Faith could heal the "physical", not just the claimed "mental" if divine intervention was true.
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  tantrumposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  the believers think that ? Who can be so dumb to think free will can be taught ?? Do you teach a baby to breath ? No. The ones thatdon't get it, they die. the same with free will. the ones that don't get it, don't have a life.
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  marinealways24posted 14 years agoin reply to this
  I would say they still have a life, just not "their" life.
  
  Would you say it is an "absolute free will" to "learn" instead of being "taught" and given choices? I would think it as absolute if all free will was learned.
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  tantrumposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  To learn under free will is to learn what you think is best for you ,despite what they tried to teach you. Absolutes doesn't exist. there's always a way around things.
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  marinealways24posted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Alright, maybe I should have used the core of free will instead of saying absolute. Is the core of free will not learning instead of being taught? Just trying to simply the root meaning.
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tantrumposted 14 years ago
A god that tells you what to do, if not you'll burn in hell ???!!!
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tantrumposted 14 years ago
you said:
Alright, maybe I should have used the core of free will instead of saying absolute. Is the core of free will not learning instead of being taught? Just trying to simply the root meaning.

the core of free will is not learning what everybody tells you to learn. free will is learning to find your own answers and your own teachings
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  marinealways24posted 14 years agoin reply to this
  So based on our core definition of free will, divine intervention and the bible are both contradictions, correct? How can this be argued by anyone? lol
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  tantrumposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  the contradiction is saying God gives us free will. But that's impossible as He is giving us commandements to follow, and 'teaching' us that if we don't follow,we're doomed ! It's crazy !!
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  marinealways24posted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Yes one of the many contradictions of free will that is in the bible along with the bible itself. Clearly a contradiction of free will based on the meaning of free will.
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  goodfriendiamposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Is it "all" that crazy? I mean lets just say you and your mate have a child, right? You raise this child with "commandments" (rules if you would like to call them that) to follow, your always there to help them to stick to the rules, cause they are after all mere children, then they grow up and go out on their own. Now you showed them the "way" correct? Now it is up to them to follow that "way" is this correct? Ok now it is their choice "free will" to decide what they will do with what they have been taught. If they choose to follow the "right way" then good will follow. If they choose to follow the "the wrong" then bad will follow. Does this mean you will ever stop loving them, If you are a parent or not I highly doubt it.
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  CabinGirlposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  You tell em girl !
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  tantrumposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Parents don't tell their children they're doomed if they disobey. God does. Read the Bible
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  goodfriendiamposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Sure they do. When you "teach" your children how to follow the right way, you also "teach" them the "consequences" of there actions. "like hey Sara didn't mommy "teach" not to play on the road" poor Sara now is paralyzed, because she was "taught" but she choice to not to listen. But does that mean her mom won't love her any more. I don't think so.
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  tantrumposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  When did i talk about love ??? I was talking with marine about free will
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  marinealways24posted 14 years agoin reply to this
  In giving them choices and telling them the consequences, you are intervening free will. I'm not saying you shouldn't direct your child until they can direct themselves, just trying to define free will. If your parents were with you your entire life telling you every decision to make, they would be intervening your free will, not just your childhood free will.
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tantrumposted 14 years ago
Maybe they think 'free will' is 'will' you get free if you follow God's orders
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marinealways24posted 14 years ago
-Another question I haven't gotten any answers on yet.

-If you trust yourself to divine intervention, why do you take medicine? You are trusting science over faith. If divine intervention was in physical life, there would not be a need for medicine.
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  tantrumposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Don't forget that the God of the Bible is very mean and vengeful and doesn't care for people that don't follow him. not even for the ones that follow, if you see what's happening in this world, all around you. I wouldn't rely in this type of divine intervention!
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  Valerie Fposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  If you take medicine and you don't believe in divine intervention, you are still putting your faith in something. You're putting your faith in science, in your doctor, in your pharmacist, and in the belief that the medicine prescribed to you is the right one for your condition.
  
  I take medicine when I'm sick, and I pray to God that my doctor prescribed the right stuff, it works, and it doesn't give me hives or make me loopy. (Or loopier as the case may be. )
  
  It is possible to have faith in both God and science. They aren't mutually exclusive.
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CabinGirlposted 14 years ago
Mummy gone to bed ?
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  goodfriendiamposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  No she wants the computer already, I have created a computer mongrel....lol
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  CabinGirlposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  As to my question, do you still love me ?
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CabinGirlposted 14 years ago
Omg nooooooooooooo, out comes my Bible !
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  tantrumposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  she asked for it
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  CabinGirlposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  You only replied read yer bible, so quote chapter and verse, I have my bible awaiting your reply !
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  tantrumposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  I'm not quoting the bible. I can care less about it.But if someone wants to discuss God, get the bible. I don't discuss god. I give my opinion. You like it good, you don't, i can't be bothered
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  CabinGirlposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  You said read the Bible so I thought you had a chapter in mind, so basically you were in fact just shooting yer mouth off at Goodfriendami who can suck you in and spit you out !
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  goodfriendiamposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Thanks for the stick up! CG.....lol
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  tantrumposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  I'm not shooting anything!. And i don't think she can suck me and spit me out. I'm too hard . She'll choked in the process
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  goodfriendiamposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Honey I can take you on any day...not...lol
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  CabinGirlposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  You still love me babe ?
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CabinGirlposted 14 years ago
Tantrum she can eat you for breakfast, you know not who you are dealing with
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  tantrumposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  She either!! neither do you !!! And this is my personal joke
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  goodfriendiamposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  And it is funny and very very true.....lol
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  CabinGirlposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Lol you are the joke, I kinda hate a triple Lol, tis kinda sad, what do you think Dee ?
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  tantrumposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  
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tantrumposted 14 years ago
@ marine
we will continue our debate another time. When hysterical chicks cope the forum, us men can't do nothing about it
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CabinGirlposted 14 years ago
No reply Dee ??
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  goodfriendiamposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  I'm still having a tantrum...LOL
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  badcompany99posted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Nice reply !
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  Jeramiposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  and congratulations Tantrum
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  tantrumposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Hi jerami
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  Jeramiposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  What sha doin
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  Mishaposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  He does not seem to mind
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  Jeramiposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Well good for everybody then !!!
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Kaabiposted 14 years ago
Ha, well this went off topic fairly quickly.
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SirDentposted 14 years ago
Just so everyone knows, if not for divine intervention all would die right in their tracks right now. Each breath you breathe is due to divine intervention.

As far as freewill goes, you have two doors to walk through. You know what is beyond each door so you choose the door you go through.

If your child had a handgun in his/her mouth, hammer pulled back ready to squeeze the trigger, would you try and stop them?
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  AEvansposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  The answer is yes and I agree if it were not for divine intervention all of us would be gone.
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  goodfriendiamposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Absolutely Agree!!
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  tantrumposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  A child is an innocent person, who needs to grow up. So that's not a good example. If a human being has a gun in his mouth, and he's the one who's pulling the trigger, I, personaly ,would not stop him, as it's obvious his choise is to die.
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  SirDentposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  You are not God either nor are you divine. So do you need to grow up also?
  
  EDITED: How old is your child before he/she stops being your child?
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  tantrumposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  I believe in me ,I love myself and I'm divine,by my own standards. I don't need anybody, as I myself is a whole. And that is my religion. Don't start preaching me, because you'll be wasting your time. Thank you !
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  SirDentposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Well, it is the time God gave me to use as I see fit. But the question was asked and I answered it. Why do you have a problem with that?
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  tantrumposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  I didn't ask you any question. you just pop up from the blue
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  AEvansposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Tantrum you did ask a question, " You need to grow up also?" it was on your previous comment and Sir Dent responded.
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  tantrumposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Read properly. That question was made by sirdent
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  SirDentposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  I agree with Tantrum. I did ask that question. Tantrum still avoiding the one I asked though.
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  tantrumposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  So what'syour question ?? If you knew me ,you would know that I always answer !! unless is Shaul Stein Who's asking
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  SirDentposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Well, it is the time God gave me to use as I see fit. But the question was asked and I answered it. Why do you have a problem with that? Then again
  
  Someone else asked the question and I answered it. That's what forums are for. So it was not me that popped up out of the blue but you did. So why do you have a problem with me answering the question?
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  tantrumposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  you said:
  Tantrum still avoiding the one I asked though.
  
  So what are you talking about, sir ?? are you playing with me, or are you out of your mind?? you don't make sense to me. So childish !! it must be the chemtrails
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  tantrumposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  still thinking ???
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  SirDentposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  I think you can have your tantrum alone without my help.
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  tantrumposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  so childish and without answers Bye, sir!!
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  Mishaposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Well, having such a name and not expecting it to become a target is somewhat short-sighted i would say
  
  Night everybody
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  tantrumposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  One of the reasons I chose the name,was to see who were stupid and childish enough as to make fun of it. Just another way to see who's who around here. And then choose accordingly ,the people who deserve my respect
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  goodfriendiamposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Ya I think your right....lol
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  Shaul Steinposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  yeah right
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  tantrumposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  So what'syour question ?? If you knew me ,you would know that I always answer !! unless is Shaul Stein who's asking
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  Shaul Steinposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Let me write that down for future use because you have said you are done talking to me about 9.0486389576 times dude
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  AEvansposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  I just read it again and noticed that! Sir Dent is a very kind person you should give him credit he has been here for a long time. I apologize for not reading it correctly.
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  tantrumposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Don't worry !! I make mistakes all the time !! As for sirdent, I'm not giving credit to someone who instead of answering, writes so childish remarks. What credit can I give to someone with whom I can't talk.?! And as I stated earlier, I chose my name for some reason,you can read somewhere above. Nice to see you AEvans !
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  SirDentposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Someone else asked the question and I answered it. That's what forums are for. So it was not me that popped up out of the blue but you did. So why do you have a problem with me answering the question?
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  marinealways24posted 14 years agoin reply to this
  -On your last statement, if you had a gun in your mouth with the hammer cocked, "Would God try to stop you?" Why not?
  
  -Of course I would try to stop my kid or anyone else. So, I can intervene others free will to stop them from pulling the trigger, but God can't? You and I can intervene, but the creator can't, or does he? You said God intervenes with every breath, why not every suicide?
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  goodfriendiamposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Because God is life, and after your gone, there is know way to bring you back, you are now in etenity
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  marinealways24posted 14 years agoin reply to this
  The only problem I have with this is, most say God intervenes in "faith". If God can intervene in the mental, why not the physical? Both are intervention of free will.
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  Make Moneyposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  God does intervene physically as well. Consider children or anyone that have survived a deathly illness. Especially when their loved ones have prayed for the person that is sick. In fact many times we ask prayer groups to pray for sick relatives or friends. And quite often the sick person comes around. We do it every time at Mass. I know this does not always work, but only God can explain why.
  
  This story doesn't have to do with a sick person but proves the power of prayer. After World War II the Communists ruled Austria. 70,000 people, one tenth of the Austrian population, pledged to say the Rosary daily for the Soviets to leave their country. On May 13, 1955 the Russians signed the agreement to leave Austria. It is the only time that the militant atheistic forces of Marxism have ever peacefully left a country in which they held power. Military strategists and historians are baffled as to why the Russians pulled out. But we are not. Divine intervention through the power of prayer to Him.
  http://www.overcomeproblems.com/about_the_rosary.htm
  
  God bless you Sandra.
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  sandra rinckposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  You ask good questions. I do believe in some sort of divine intervention of course I call it "luck". If not then it was meant to be. Who says that a person committing suicide wasn't the way the person was meant to go?
  
  Lots of people attempt suicide everyday. I have been on the attempted side more than a dozen times. The last time I do believe it was divine intervention that saved my life. You can call it god I don't really care.
  
  But as the story goes, I was on my death bed completely ready to kick the bucket on a suicide attempt. I remember being brought into the er, watching (some sort of delusion) myself being brought back out. I was pregnant and happy.
  
  I couldn't understand it at the time. I suffered from sever bipolar depression for most my life. Then everything went black. I woke up the next day with tubes in every place imaginable etc...
  
  About a year later I was pregnant and had an awesome little girl. I have fought bpd on my own naturally without med. intervention and have been pretty stable for the last few years.
  
  They say that when you finally reach the bottom it can only get better and sure it enough for me it did. And while I don't actually believe in a god in the sky or anything like that. I do believe that there is something out there.
  
  Also, I think it's pretty extraordinary that I prayed my entire life for just a few things then that happened and within a few years it seems that everything I ever prayed for finally was answered.
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  marinealways24posted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Thank You for adding Sandra. I am glad to hear that you are much better now. I have faith in a reason/purpose for mine, your, everyone's life, this does not prove that there is reason/purpose. It's hard for me to believe that our lives would be intervened simply because I want to. I am only speaking for myself. I don't think our lives are intervened because it wouldn't be "our" lives if one constantly intervened, it would be their life which contradicts free will.
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  SirDentposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  God intervenes more than you and I even know. Anytime one has gotten so low that suicide is considered He calls out to them. He does not force them into submission, but gives them a way out. This is called intervention without taking away freedom of choice.
  
  Think about seeing someone on a high roof top ready to jump. You try and talk them down. You are intervening, but that doesn't mean they won't go ahead and jump.
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  marinealways24posted 14 years agoin reply to this
  lol In your last sentence, you say if I were to intervene to talk someone off of a roof, they could jump anyways. This is quite true. The point of the entire thread is, If I intervened to keep the man from jumping, I would be intervening and influencing his free will and choice.
  
  Again, my point, intervention contradicts free will.
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My Friend Shiylohposted 14 years ago
My friend says:
Love has a will also, and with love will intervene for the sake of the love it has for a loved one.
The intervention of love can be refused as well and often is because love is not understood.
If love is refused, then the refuser is free to go their way and help themselves and lost no freedom.

Love wonders though, what if one who has freewill asks for help from love and love says.....
“you are free to help yourself as I cannot intervene and go against your freewill.” ?
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tantrumposted 14 years ago
Maybe are the chemtrails...Why everybody is so weird tonight ??
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marinealways24posted 14 years ago
lol what happened in here? Chaos! lol

I will try to catch up with the post's eventually.
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  tantrumposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  @ marine
  we will continue our debate another time. When hysterical chicks cope the forum, us men can't do nothing about it
  
  I wrote this ages ago, before a lot monsters came for me ! what a joke. read and have a laugh !!
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Shaul Steinposted 14 years ago
Have you ever thought about this?

A King with a free will of his own, trumps yours.

And there is 100% absolutely not one thing you can do about it?

99.9999999999% of the time though,
The King just does not bother with you, He is busy, has a Kingdom to run.
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  marinealways24posted 14 years agoin reply to this
  There is a reason I don't respond to your ignorance. Because you are ignorant.
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  Shaul Steinposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Perhaps you do not like to be trumped?
  Nobody does, but it IS a reality.
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  marinealways24posted 14 years agoin reply to this
  I'm actually glad you posted your ignorant comments. You are the perfect example of the religious robot. "Don't ask questions, God doesn't have time to answer." Go discover individualism then you might have an intelligent remark to add. You only "trump" yourself.
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  Shaul Steinposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Where did I say not to ask questions?
  I ask hundreds and have placed like 20 topics in here that are full of questions.
  
  So bail out !!!
  
  And where did I say He does not have time to answer?
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  marinealways24posted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Quote the right box next time ignorant one. Once again, you show your ignorance. This is why this will be my last response to your ignorant games. You have no intelligent thought to add.
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My Friend Shiylohposted 14 years ago
My friend says:
Love has a will also, and with love will intervene for the sake of the love it has for a loved one.
The intervention of love can be refused as well and often is because love is not understood.
If love is refused, then the refuser is free to go their way and help themselves and lost no freedom.

Love wonders though, what if one who has freewill asks for help from love and love says.....
“you are free to help yourself as I cannot intervene and go against your freewill.” ?
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tantrumposted 14 years ago
@marine

Don't you feel like this ?

To much work !!!!
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  marinealways24posted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Only to the ignorant ones that refuse to think.
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  wordscribe41posted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Exactly... And what with all this "trumping" b.s? Another fundamentalist is acting like we're playing cards over there in another forum post with "trumps", "bad hands", etc... Sheesh!
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tantrumposted 14 years ago

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marinealways24posted 14 years ago
There, added to both of them so he couldn't get out of it.
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Davinagirl3posted 14 years ago
The idea of "divine intervention" gives us the impression that a divine being is in control of the situations that occur in our lives. How we behave, and handle those situations is up to us. The concepts work nicely together.
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  marinealways24posted 14 years agoin reply to this
  "In control of the situations" Doesn't this also contradict free will?
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  Davinagirl3posted 14 years agoin reply to this
  No, because sometimes things happen that have nothing to do with our free will. If a bus driver is preoccupied, runs a red light and kills three pedestrians, it has nothing to do with the "free will" of the pedestrians. It is a situation. Some might say that it was predestined, or just random, but then the argument would be between "divine intervention" and random chaos.
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  marinealways24posted 14 years agoin reply to this
  If it was divine intervention, Why wouldn't there be 3 rapist's and murderer's crossing the street when the bus killed them instead of 3 regular pedestrians?
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  Davinagirl3posted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Maybe it was, but it still didn't have anything to do with their free will.
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  marinealways24posted 14 years agoin reply to this
  lol it didn't? The divine intervention you claim that picks the situation killed them. If they are killed by the divine, this is not free will. lol
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  Davinagirl3posted 14 years agoin reply to this
  If they purposely stepped into traffic, it would have been free will.
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  tantrumposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  free will is the will we have to live our life as we think best. What happens in the world, like an accident doesn't have anything to do with that. Tha's part of the dangers of life. Welcome to the World !!
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  tantrumposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  scary thought !!
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  tantrumposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  I don't like it at all! Hate 2 b rulled by 'divine intervention' !
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  marinealways24posted 14 years agoin reply to this
  I wanted to add to this. If I sit around waiting for God to pick my situation and job for me, would I get a job? Why wouldn't I get a job if God controlled my situations? Did God not favor me for favoring him? Why wouldn't he get me a job if I sit there waiting for his control of the situation?
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  Davinagirl3posted 14 years agoin reply to this
  If you "sit around and wait", situations will still occur. Life will still go on around you. I don't think that "God" will reach out of the sky and fill out a job application for you, but lightening may still strike your house while you are sitting around waiting. Situations are seemingly random events that may, or may not, have meaning... depending on how you choose to view them.
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  tantrumposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  That's what life is about. Don't you think ? what's your point ??
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  Davinagirl3posted 14 years agoin reply to this
  My point is that asking if Free Will contradicts Divine Intervention is like comparing apples and oranges. They work on different levels.
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  tantrumposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  But any kind of 'intervention' contradicts free will, a godly one, with more reason. as we as mere mortals couldn't do anything about it.
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  marinealways24posted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Exactly!!!!!! Not picking teams, but this is my main point.
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  tantrumposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Becausethre's noGod ,Marine !! You'll have to get it yourself, like everything in life !!
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  marinealways24posted 14 years agoin reply to this
  I understand that the religious God does not exist in my belief. By this reason alone, it would be ignorant for me to rule out a creator or creators when I don't truly know.
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  tantrumposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  you don't know ? So what rules your life. ? or is it yourself ??
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  marinealways24posted 14 years agoin reply to this
  I rule my life with faith that there is reason/purpose for my life. This faith does not intervene my free will of belief.
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  tantrumposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Well then you know !!
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  marinealways24posted 14 years agoin reply to this
  I don't "know" anything, I have faith.
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cosetteposted 14 years ago
i don't believe in divine intervention. if there were such a thing, why do millions of people suffer from famine or genocide? but if there were, it would trump free will, as you surrender your will to the Divine to save you.
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  marinealways24posted 14 years agoin reply to this
  lol Wow
  
  Thank You for seeing the point I was making in the thread topic which was my main point.
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  SirDentposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Have you ever heard of the word sin? Sin has overcome man and has done so for thousands of years. There isn't a man alive who has not sinned except for one. His name is Jesus.
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  Davinagirl3posted 14 years agoin reply to this
  You are right. Anyone who sits around and waits for "God" to live their lives are going to have really lousy lives. These people tend to be seriously depressed and desperate.
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  tantrumposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Of course, because if they believe in god, they are not getting any reply from him
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  Davinagirl3posted 14 years agoin reply to this
  I have never met anyone who has gotten any instructions from "God".
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  wordscribe41posted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Oh, I've heard plenty of people say they have. "God told me to do x,y,z..." You should attend a few AA meetings.
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  tantrumposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Oh yes !! I forgot lost people !!
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  wordscribe41posted 14 years agoin reply to this
  I'm actually in recovery from being "in recovery" in AA... Have moved onto Rational Recovery... what a Godsend.
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  tantrumposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Good 4 u !!! You're not lost !!
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  tantrumposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  How could they get instructions from something that doesn't exists ? Of course you don't know anyone !!
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wordscribe41posted 14 years ago
Oh, no... I'm found. But, not according to the 12 Steppers who are convinced I'm drunk, on the streets, and hopeless. Sorry, couldn't "turn my will and my life over to the care of God as I understand him." Didn't work for me.
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  tantrumposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Who cares what they think!
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  Davinagirl3posted 14 years agoin reply to this
  I guess it makes some people feel better to think that "God" is making them do things, but I would prefer to think that I had the power to decide to make certain decisions. Congrats on your sobriety! I think you are doing well because you are strong.
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marinealways24posted 14 years ago
I think this is where the divide comes. Religion makes fun of non believers and non believers make fun of religion. It would be nice if we could find common ground to humble ourselves to admit that we don't know what our human purpose is in the universe.
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  wordscribe41posted 14 years agoin reply to this
  I do agree with that, marine. I really do. But, gosh darnit if I haven't just had the worst experiences to render that very difficult.
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  marinealways24posted 14 years agoin reply to this
  We all have. You and I both know that you can't beat a negative with a negative.
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  wordscribe41posted 14 years agoin reply to this
  True. AND it depends who you are talking to. Fundamentalists and I don't get along, I'm always "going to Hell". I appreciate a rational person, however. One that thinks...
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  marinealways24posted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Anyone that makes personal accusations like that towards another is a mind trapped in belief. Someone that makes a remark like that will only self-destruct. They don't need any help. They may also never find individualism. Some choose to have a open belief. As you and I know, somes belief is closed from fear. I think belief should be like a democracy always open to debate.
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  wordscribe41posted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Definitely agree. I am about ready to SCREAM from another forum post. There's just no logic coming from this fundamentalist, whatsoever. Brain-washed, completely. I seem to attract the fundamentalists. (Insert tantrums angry red cartoon here). Thanks for listening.
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  marinealways24posted 14 years agoin reply to this
  lol They win if you scream. You can only debate belief with people who's belief is open. The one's belief that is closed will only see what they want to see, no matter what you write. Logic doesn't always prevail as you already know. lol
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  wordscribe41posted 14 years agoin reply to this
  So true. I need to just stop, I really do. I once stayed up half the night arguing with this person. What did I gain? Exhaustion. LOL!
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  marinealways24posted 14 years agoin reply to this
  And I can guess the arguement only went in circles? I think both stop learning when the debate turns into an arguement. I try to avoid the circles, but it doesn't always happen. lol
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  Valerie Fposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  I agree as well. And I admit I find it difficult at times to not respond to "the Bible calls me a fool for being an atheist," with "well, maybe you act like one."
  
  To be perfectly fair, I have known atheists who are humble, polite, open and fair-minded, who treat believers as their intellectual equals, and aren't given to take a disagreement on religion as a personal insult, particularly if no insult is ever intended. I've found them generally a lot of fun to be around.
  
  But there are some...
  
  ...who remind me why I think it's best to judge a religion or a philosophy strictly on the merits of its teachings rather than the failings of its adherents. I don't want to be skewed by any personal bias.
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  marinealways24posted 14 years agoin reply to this
  This is one of the main problems in titles. Everything has a title. The titles are the basis of the generalizations. If everyone claimed individualism instead of a "set" belief, there would be no titles in belief.
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  My Friend Shiylohposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  My friend says:
  Love is not a title.
  Love points to love and not a rank or title.
  Love is meek and humble.
  Love is not putting down.
  Love is edifying towards something greater.
  Love teaches ones who can receive.
  Love gives light.
  If one can no longer be taught, they chose to stop receiving love.
  
  My friend says:
  Love allows others to choose life and love.
  Love honors the choice of another to choose.
  Love does not seek it's own way.
  
  My friend says:
  Love is the greatest teacher.
  Love needs no rank nor title nor recognition of men.
  Love teaches love and in love is always teaching love.
  Love is sincere in all it says.
  
  My friend says:
  Love moves in wisdom, understanding, meekness, humility and compassion.
  At all times, and if it must correct, this too is done with love.
  If correction is not received, love moves on in love.
  
  My friend says:
  Give what you have in your cup.
  When your cup is empty, give your cup.
  
  My friend says:
  Love is transparent.
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  marinealways24posted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Alright, why do you keep writing in 3rd person?
  
  I am a huge supporter of love, however, your friend seemed to forget that love is not always pretty. Love can make one blind. Love can breed hate if the love is not unconditional. Those that you love don't always love you back. Love can lie and deceive. If you write all of the positives of something, you should recognize the bad also.
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  Make Moneyposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Well I'd agree with all three of yous. Maybe that is where we have common ground? In fact we do have common ground here.
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  tantrumposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  I know exactly what it is, that's why I talk. Of course I speak for myself.
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  marinealways24posted 14 years agoin reply to this
  I would argue that you only know your purpose, not "our" purpose as a whole. lol, Thats what you already said huh?
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  tantrumposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  I said 'I speak for myself ' didn't I ?
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  marinealways24posted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Yes you did. Is that an absolute? lol
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  tantrumposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Aha !!
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  marinealways24posted 14 years agoin reply to this
  lol, I thought you might like that one.
  reply report
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wordscribe41posted 14 years ago
Thanks, Davina. Yes, they believe without God they are unable to stay sober on their own. If they "take back their will", ultimately they will relapse.
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Shaul Steinposted 14 years ago
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tantrumposted 14 years ago
@marine

Someone just walk in !!
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  marinealways24posted 14 years agoin reply to this
  reply report
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marinealways24posted 14 years ago
So....How was everyone's day today?
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tantrumposted 14 years ago
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  wordscribe41posted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Knock it off!
  reply report
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My Friend Shiylohposted 14 years ago
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  marinealways24posted 14 years agoin reply to this
  I don't understand your question.
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  My Friend Shiylohposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  My friend says:
  The answer is contained in love.
  Love is the understanding in the mystery of the question.
  
  Love asks if you understand the statements?
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  marinealways24posted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Ok, I can't prove it wrong or right that love is divine intervention without contradicting free will. I like the idea though, made me think. I will get back to you on my idea on this.
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  My Friend Shiylohposted 14 years agoin reply to this
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tantrumposted 14 years ago
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  Make Moneyposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  I hope you don't mind me using your angry smiley tantrum?
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  tantrumposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Of course not!! I love your mispelling !!
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  Make Moneyposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Thanks. What spelling mistake? Smiley?
  
  Definitions of smiley:
  * noun: an emoticon of a smiling face
  * name: A surname (common: 1 in 11111 families; popularity rank in the U.S.: #1375)
  http://www.rhymezone.com/r/rhyme.cgi?Wo … amp;org2=l
  
  You misspelled "mispelling". The correction is "misspelling".
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  tantrumposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  you know perfectly well what I'm talking about!! I saw you corrected it I like your sense of humor!! as your beliefs!
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  Make Moneyposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  No I don't even know what word you are talking about that you think I corrected. Seriously. I like your sense of humor too. I just about spelled homour wrong cause that's how we spell it here.
  reply report
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My Friend Shiylohposted 14 years ago
My friend says:
Love is healing.
Love is not a religion.
The opposite of love is fear and healing cannot happen if fear is present.
Love is light and life, faith and hope spring from love.
Love is logical and the truth of love is seen and made evident to all who seek it.
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  marinealways24posted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Love is an emotion and is not always logical. If a man loved his wife and his wife cheated on him, where was the logic in that? Why didn't his love keep her from cheating. How can you understand all the positives if you fail to recognize the negatives?
  reply report
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  My Friend Shiylohposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  My friend says:
  Love is not failing here, it is not able to fail because of anything.
  
  Love sees all things and yet is not moved by anything against it's will.
  
  Love does not keep one from using it's free will.
  
  If the wife cheats, she has not acted in love as love would not do this.
  
  She has used her freewill to walk outside of love.
  
  Pure love is logical and if the freewill thinks outside of logic, it will not act in love.
  
  Love does not keep one from cheating if they so wish to.
  
  The husband would not be moved from his position of love if it were real love.
  
  The husbands love can be rejected and still remain as it was, always loving.
  
  Love cannot be shaken from it's place or fall from it's place of love.
  
  That is why pure love always moves in love, no matter what.
  
  Love overcomes all things and cannot be moved from acting with love and in love.
  
  Love is a thousand times more than an emotion, love is an action that does not act out of emotion even if emotions are present.
  
  Love is chosen over all emotions and cannot be moved by them against it's will.
  
  Love exercises self control at all times and is not moved by emotions.
  
  Emotions can cloud ones logic and judgment. Not so with love.
  
  There are many forms of "love" only real and pure selfless love remains
  "always faithful."
  
  This is a saying you are familiar with yes?
  This is a hard saying. Who can know it?
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  My Friend Shiylohposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Love asks:
  Have you no reply sir?
  Love, pure love is hard to comprehend because to much self is involved in what is called love.
  Love is selfless.
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  marinealways24posted 14 years agoin reply to this
  lol do you not comprehend that you are doing the opposite of your intentions? Or does your love make you blind to this?
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My Friend Shiylohposted 14 years ago
My friend says:
Love is healing.
Love is not a religion.
The opposite of love is fear and healing cannot happen if fear is present.
Love is light and life, faith and hope spring from love.
Love is logical and the truth of love is seen and made evident to all who seek it.
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My Friend Shiylohposted 14 years ago
My friend says:
Writing or speaking in the name of love is to not speak of ones own accord.
Love means no harm.

And the rest will be answered shortly.
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  marinealways24posted 14 years agoin reply to this
  I applaud you in your efforts to spread love.
  
  My friend says, someone that constantly writes in 3rd person has something to hide or is playing pretend. I prefer to speak with 1st persons.
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  My Friend Shiylohposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  My friends says:
  Love has nothing to hide here, love has no fear.
  Love is merely dictating through a person who has received love.
  Love plays no games or is pretending.
  I am speaking in love.
  My friends name is Shiyloh.
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mcbeanposted 14 years ago
Any creator would have the power to give and remove free will at any time. They could play with us for their amusement, let us run free until we did something that was not approved of, then change the rules.
With infinite changes possible from an all powerful being it is illogical to make any conclusions about the divine from observations you make about current conditions.

Having said that, I am not a believer in any form of god but I still do not follow the 'logic' to this argument
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  marinealways24posted 14 years agoin reply to this
  lol Why would I claim to know the power or reasoning of a creator/creators? It is my logic that I have the free will to take my life if I chose to. I started the thread based on the bible and religions assumptions of free will and divine intervention. They clearly contradict each other in my belief.
  reply report
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wordscribe41posted 14 years ago
You're still here, marine? He he he...
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  marinealways24posted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Yes, but "my friend" is getting on my nerves. I think I lose sanity when I see someone repeatedly write in 3rd person. I don't feel his/her love.
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  wordscribe41posted 14 years agoin reply to this
  glad it's not just me. His or her name's Shiyloh, but the poster's name is ???? It reminds me of my kids when they were toddlers: "Peter has to go pee pee." Not feeling the love either.
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  marinealways24posted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Think we just proved his/her love theory wrong. Oops.
  reply report
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  My Friend Shiylohposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Love needs no defense and nothing can defend against love.
  Love is the focus here, not the person.
  Love is not offended.
  reply report
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  marinealways24posted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Love lets people hide behind it and deceive others while writing in 3rd person.
  reply report
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My Friend Shiylohposted 14 years ago
Love does not need others to love back.
Love continues to love.
Pure love does not lie, cheat, breed hate, deceive, nor is it blind.

Love sees all and continues to love.
Perhaps your idea of love needs purification or examination?

Love overcomes all things and cannot be moved.
Love is not insane.

Shiyloh.
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  marinealways24posted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Think we just proved his/her love theory wrong. Oops.
  reply report
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tantrumposted 14 years ago
My friend tantrum says : I love all of you
I love myself
I love makemoney
I love my friend shyloh
I love sirdent

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  tantrumposted 14 years agoin reply to this
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  Make Moneyposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  How lovely My friend tantrum.
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  tantrumposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  My lovely friend makemoney !!
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tantrumposted 14 years ago
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tantrumposted 14 years ago
My friend tantrum says
love is all around us
love is behind
love is in front
love is up
love is down
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  marinealways24posted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Is love absolute?
  reply report
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wordscribe41posted 14 years ago
Love will keep us together.
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tantrumposted 14 years ago
My friend tantrum says
watch out ! Love is going to crash
love is going to get sick
love is going to faint
love is dead
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tantrumposted 14 years ago
my friend tantrum says :
love is terrible
love is fantastic
love is awesome
love isblind
love is stevie wonder
love is love
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  marinealways24posted 14 years agoin reply to this
  lol you are on a roll.
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My Friend Shiylohposted 14 years ago
Love has a will also, and with love will intervene for the sake of the love it has for a loved one.
The intervention of love can be refused as well and often is because love is not understood.
If love is refused, then the refuser is free to go their way and help themselves and lost no freedom.
Love wonders though, what if one who has freewill asks for help from love and love says...
“you are free to help yourself as I cannot intervene and go against your freewill.” ?
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My Friend Shiylohposted 14 years ago
Perhaps if you are bothered by the 3rd person you will have the love enough to read the words alone as love speaking to you.
Or you can laugh.
Love is not bothered.
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  marinealways24posted 14 years agoin reply to this
  I think you believe you are the love prophet. Correct?
  reply report
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  My Friend Shiylohposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Love has no title or rank.
  reply report
59
My Friend Shiylohposted 14 years ago
Love is not offended by mocking of the messenger.
Love would rather that one looks at the words written.
And offers love.
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  marinealways24posted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Hmmm, Who made you the messenger? God?
  reply report
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  My Friend Shiylohposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Love contains a message carried by someone who loves.
  reply report
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  marinealways24posted 14 years agoin reply to this
  lol imagine that. You are getting predictable.
  reply report

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Divine Intervention Contradicts Free Will?

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