How much does science really know?
86- Pr0metheus
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Cagsil wrote:
Pr0metheus wrote:
sneakorocksolid wrote:
Dear liberals, gays, atheists, abortionists, petas, one world governmenters, womens rights advocates, welfare recipients, race baiters, muslums, europeans, whale kissers, grazers, tree huggers, enviromentalists, peaceniks, politically correctors, agnostics, college students and all other free thinking radicals I'm sorry you got pissed off at me. I really do love you all(at a distance) and want to be your friend!
Is that ok?What about young people! HUH!? HUH!?
The 'all other free thinking radicals" category.
just kidding.Hah. No no. Sneako used to make fun of me because I was young. Good times!
I like your new profile pic Cag.
88- B.C. BOUTIQUE
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everyone is entitled to thir very own beliefs..
so no, I do not know how much scientist really know and I will not go int my beliefs for fear of being bashed or tormented by someone who is a very strong advocate for either side of this discussion.
87- Cagsil
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Pr0metheus wrote:
Cagsil wrote:
Pr0metheus wrote:
What about young people! HUH!? HUH!?The 'all other free thinking radicals" category.
just kidding.Hah. No no. Sneako used to make fun of me because I was young. Good times!
I like your new profile pic Cag.Thank you.
How much does science really know? Science is the study of real life and the nature of things. What science can not prove it offers theories based on logical assumptions. For instance you cannot see electricity but you know it exists because of it's affects. Therefore we conclude that there is a thing called electricity. Science has revealed allot about the world but on the other hand there are scientific theories such as relativity that are so complex that it may never be proven to be true. Science is stereotyped as people in lab coats with thick glasses but science is anything and everything that attempts to explain life and living.
73- sooner than later
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Pr0metheus wrote:
sooner than later wrote:
I am very greatful for science. I enjoy our advances in the medical fields, engineering, technology and so on but I feel evolution science is failing. I was a firm believer for over 30 years. Many have tried to bring meat to the table a few times from both sides. What I would like to do is talk in an intillectual maner about the Creator and about Evolution. It will include biblical quotes on our side- and hopefully scientific evidence from your side.
Rules;
1. No trolls
2. No insults from either side.
3. No hit and run comments.
4. Make this one as clean and factual as possible.
5. Respect the "enemy"- we are all brothers and sisters in mankind by religion or evolution.
6. Start by apologizing to those you have insulted.
Proof God exists commences now.
"Proof God exists commences now." breaks rule number 3.
http://www.haydenplanetarium.org/tyson/ … fignorance
"But a careful reading of older texts, particularly those concerned with the universe itself, shows that the authors invoke divinity only when they reach the boundaries of their understanding. They appeal to a higher power only when staring into the ocean of their own ignorance. They call on God only from the lonely and precarious edge of incomprehension. Where they feel certain about their explanations, however, God gets hardly a mention." -Neil Degrasse Tyson
Mr. Tyson insists that god is only used when on the brink of ignorance. He argues that when something is unexplainable it is "God's handiwork". When it is easily explainable there is no mention of god.
"To deny or erase the rich, colorful history of scientists and other thinkers who have invoked divinity in their work would be intellectually dishonest. Surely there's an appropriate place for intelligent design to live in the academic landscape. How about the history of religion? How about philosophy or psychology? The one place it doesn't belong is the science classroom.
If you're not swayed by academic arguments, consider the financial consequences. Allow intelligent design into science textbooks, lecture halls, and laboratories, and the cost to the frontier of scientific discovery—the frontier that drives the economies of the future—would be incalculable. I don't want students who could make the next major breakthrough in renewable energy sources or space travel to have been taught that anything they don't understand, and that nobody yet understands, is divinely constructed and therefore beyond their intellectual capacity. The day that happens, Americans will just sit in awe of what we don't understand, while we watch the rest of the world boldly go where no mortal has gone before."
This is why proclaimed "Free-Thinkers" argue so strongly against the blind subservience that religion requires.
I'm not going to argue that God does or does not exist, I'm just going to say that religion stunts scientific growth. One of the newest family guys prods fun at that very fact (they go to a parallel universe where Christianity never held power and it it thousands of years more advanced).
So, how much does science really know? A LOT more than religion! Religion is merely an excuse for ignorance.
One thing it knows for sure is that it doesn't really know much. It is open to change, new technology, design, experimentation, use of the SCIENTIFIC method. Religion does not claim the same freedom. It takes wars to change religion, while it takes nothing close to change an idea.
Me? I believe in a god. I don't believe in the Judeo-Christian God. I can say with complete certainty that the bible is not completely truthful. I also say with complete certainty that the Judeo-Christian version of God does not exist.
Science > ReligionPrometheus- rule #3 remains unbroken until I run.
The article you have posted was interesting. However, all of the points Mr Tyson made are subject to refute. Science has so much information that I suppose just about everything has been conjured up or pondered at some point.
Newton's Law of Gravity was ground breaking and maybe more accurate than scientists tried to disprove in later generations. For example the French astronomer and mathematician Pierre-Simon de Laplace, pulled from your article;
"confronted Newton's dilemma of unstable orbits head-on. Rather than view the mysterious stability of the solar system as the unknowable work of God, Laplace declared it a scientific challenge. In his multipart masterpiece, Mécanique Céleste, the first volume of which appeared in 1798, Laplace demonstrates that the solar system is stable over periods of time longer than Newton could predict. To do so, Laplace pioneered a new kind of mathematics called perturbation theory, which enabled him to examine the cumulative effects of many small forces. According to an oft-repeated but probably embellished account, when Laplace gave a copy of Mécanique Céleste to his physics-literate friend Napoleon Bonaparte, Napoleon asked him what role God played in the construction and regulation of the heavens. Sire, Laplace replied, I have no need of that hypothesis."
science always needs "More Time". More time in nature, more time in existance, more time to discover the missing link, more time for new breakthroughs, more time required for the planets to set orbit, more time for continents to shift, more time for oil to form, more time for fossils to form. Gradual selection, gradual changes, gradual forces. Millions of years. Billions of years. ONE TRILLION YEARS.
We don't have that much time. And the more science discovers, the less time they assign to thier discoveries. Laplace requires minimal gravitational pull to start the motion- but what he really needs is no gravitational pull from the planets, no initial spin but certainly orbit. Otherwise all of the planets and thier moons would have clustered together at the sun or any gravitational pull would have brought some together. Julius Caesar noted a need to adjust for a leep year thousands of years ago, which means they were already acounting for the increase in the earths spin speed. So, you can exclude the idea of global warmings effect. P.S. we should have spun off by now given science's existance of the earth- even if we started from a dead stop which is not possible per his theory.
Archeology begs for more time. "Ice man 20,000 years old" no "40,000 years old" now you can't find that online. but I still have the original national geographic prints that stated these obsurd #'s. Guess what 4,300 +/-
I have said before that God is a Complete Creator. He completed his creation in minimal time. the evidence for that is extremely apparent.
Tyson concluded that these men would rely on God to explain the unknown. You believe in a god. Is that god responsible for any form of order?
God>Science.- 86
- Pr0metheus
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Well of course god is greater than science (assuming he exists).... that's kind of a pointless argument. That's like saying the greatest thing that ever has been is greater than everything else.
Is the god I understand responsible for any form of order? Of course, he's god. He IS everything that has been, will be, could be, could have been, was in a different universe, etc. If you really want to understand how I see god read my hub.
http://hubpages.com/hub/God-is-a-Sine-Wave
You also made another moot point. We require more time to find answers to things we don't already know. That's like saying we require more time to live. It is a pretty obvious statement, and presents no real depth of analysis or thought.
The main point here is that science attempts to explain the universe we live in (created by god or not) based on facts and experiments. Religion on the other hand is based on stories in a book that is about 2,000 years old. It's just a bunch of stories to help people live their lives well. That's all it was meant to do! It wasn't meant to be a governing document! "God created spirituality. Satan organized it and called it religion." That's exactly what people did. They manipulated the bible to control the masses and obtain power.
God > Science
Science > Religion
Game over. 
96- Paraglider
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OK, as requested, I hereby apologize to the God-impersonator and spammer whom I once dubbed 'twit'. Sorry twit, OK?
Scientists try to understand natural phenomena and formulate theories that describe the observable and predict the not-yet-observed. They ensure that their theories are falsifiable by contradictory observation, They do not claim to have stated truth; instead they invite refutation. If none is available, they might have advanced human knowledge, but they understand that everything is tentative. That is what science is and what scientists do.
If that work casts doubt on some earlier explanations of natural phenomena, so be it. People are then free to choose to hang on to the old belief or to accept the new as 'more probably true'. Note - there is no need, in fact no justification, to believe the new. Belief is a psychological need, not a rational requirement.- 86
- Pr0metheus
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Paraglider wrote:
Note - there is no need, in fact no justification, to believe the new. Belief is a psychological need, not a rational requirement.
You just earned yourself a fan.
- 96
- Paraglider
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Pr0metheus wrote:
Paraglider wrote:
Note - there is no need, in fact no justification, to believe the new. Belief is a psychological need, not a rational requirement.
You just earned yourself a fan.
Thanks Prometheus
After reading some of the posts hare it would seem that the question had become a debate about science vs religion long ago. While I do believe in a higher force I do not rely on religion to explain existence. Logically speaking if one were to rely solely on religion it could be easily concluded that there would be no advancement since the garden of Eden. Man would simply accept life as it was with no reason to be curious or ask questions about why things happen. We would just accept things as the way Gad wants it to be. Plagues, diseases, wars, famine, the situation would be mind boggling to say the least. You would have to be delusional to believe that you would still be walking around in Togas with a smile on your face by 2009.
On the other hand the reason why science always needs more time is because of the limitations of our brains. No one is all knowing so we have to adjust and make improvements as we go. Curiosity fuels advancement.- 86
- Pr0metheus
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mintinfo wrote:
After reading some of the posts hare it would seem that the question had become a debate about science vs religion long ago. While I do believe in a higher force I do not rely on religion to explain existence. Logically speaking if one were to rely solely on religion it could be easily concluded that there would be no advancement since the garden of Eden. Man would simply accept life as it was with no reason to be curious or ask questions about why things happen. We would just accept things as the way Gad wants it to be. Plagues, diseases, wars, famine, the situation would be mind boggling to say the least. You would have to be delusional to believe that you would still be walking around in Togas with a smile on your face by 2009.
On the other hand the reason why science always needs more time is because of the limitations of our brains. No one is all knowing so we have to adjust and make improvements as we go. Curiosity fuels advancement.I'd say that mentality leans more towards spiritual than religious.
92- cheaptrick
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"When Scientists reach the summit of the Mountain of Knowledge,
They will find that Theologians have been waiting for them
for Centuries".Perhaps Science and Unadulterated Religion are just two methods of attempting understanding of that which is not understandable...
27- Evolution Guy
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sooner than later wrote:
I am very greatful for science. I enjoy our advances in the medical fields, engineering, technology and so on but I feel evolution science is failing. I was a firm believer for over 30 years. Many have tried to bring meat to the table a few times from both sides. What I would like to do is talk in an intillectual maner about the Creator and about Evolution. It will include biblical quotes on our side- and hopefully scientific evidence from your side.
Rules;
1. No trolls
2. No insults from either side.
3. No hit and run comments.
4. Make this one as clean and factual as possible.
5. Respect the "enemy"- we are all brothers and sisters in mankind by religion or evolution.
6. Start by apologizing to those you have insulted.
Proof God exists commences now.
You are refuting every piece of scientific knowledge we have. Evolution is not the only proof that we and the planet are a lot older that you are suggesting.
What is ironic is your use of a computer to even attempt to make this argument. Evolution happens, is happening and will continue to happen. No scientist would attempt to deny this.
It is not really worth arguing with you because you are arguing from an untenable desperation which is unlikely to be swayed by reason, logic or facts. One can only assume that the proof of evolution that is absolutely not in question has caused you to realize your beliefs are false so you feel the need to defend them.
I am really sorry that your beliefs have been proven to be garbage by scientific advancements. That was not the intention. No scientist sat down and aside, "Let' s see if we can prove the religionists wrong."
No - what they said was, "Gosh! 6,000 years ago an invisible super being drew us in the dirt? Says the man with the holy book. Oh dear - that does not agree with the millions of observations we are making. Lets investigate - see if we can't come up with more reasonable explanation that actually fits the facts."
And I am not really interested in proving every single evolutionary step of every single animal on the planet. Odd that you bleat about proof when you have absolutely no proof whatsoever for your invisible creator.
And I do not need to apologize to you. If I called you ignorant or uneducated or deliberately obtuse - it was not an insult - merely a statement of fact.
This is an example of one animal's evolutionary development:
http://www.sciencemag.org/cgi/content/s … /5716/1728
You will have to sign up to read the article as it is rather long, but here are some pictures to help you to understand better. The evolution of the horse.
A simple explanation is here:
http://laelaps.wordpress.com/2007/09/17 … evolution/
With a few pointers as to why the creationist argument against evolution is largely semantics and smoke screens with no real basis in science. The said arguments against evolution are here:
http://www.answersingenesis.org/
Most of which seem to be "Evolution couldn't have happened because it is too unlikely."
Therefore God drew us in the dirt 6,000 years ago and all the proof is actually lies. I have heard some interesting and entertaining arguments.
The spider woman's claims of dinosaurs being mentioned in the bible. Oddly silent as to why God decided to wipe them out - presumably they sinned very very badly in some way?
The fact that people lived a lot longer back them because of the extra oxygen in the air. not that climate change is happening or anything. Personally - If I genuinely believed people used to live 800 years -= and we have screwed up the planet so badly we now only live 90- or so - I would be more concerned about changing that than I would about trying to fight proven scientific facts with this sort of poorly thought out argument that can only attract ridicule and ill will when it is taught to children. Child abuse is the word you are looking for.
Now I understand that light actually travels much faster than we thought because it goes faster at the beginning and the stars were prolly a lot closer than they were 6000 years ago.
Evolution proves there is no god. Or at least - your god does not and can not exist.
A Random creator who made the universe by throwing a bunch of stuff in and seeing what came out? OK - I could go with that. The one with the rules and the guilt? Irrational garbage. Sorry dude - your beliefs are worthless. 
No insult intended.- 86
- Pr0metheus
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cheaptrick wrote:
"When Scientists reach the summit of the Mountain of Knowledge,
They will find that Theologians have been waiting for them
for Centuries".Perhaps Science and Unadulterated Religion are just two methods of attempting understanding of that which is not understandable...Because who needs a foundation of knowledge to get to the top when they can just pretend like they have one....
- 73
- sooner than later
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Pr0metheus wrote:
Well of course god is greater than science (assuming he exists).... that's kind of a pointless argument. That's like saying the greatest thing that ever has been is greater than everything else.
Is the god I understand responsible for any form of order? Of course, he's god. He IS everything that has been, will be, could be, could have been, was in a different universe, etc. If you really want to understand how I see god read my hub.
http://hubpages.com/hub/God-is-a-Sine-Wave
You also made another moot point. We require more time to find answers to things we don't already know. That's like saying we require more time to live. It is a pretty obvious statement, and presents no real depth of analysis or thought.
The main point here is that science attempts to explain the universe we live in (created by god or not) based on facts and experiments. Religion on the other hand is based on stories in a book that is about 2,000 years old. It's just a bunch of stories to help people live their lives well. That's all it was meant to do! It wasn't meant to be a governing document! "God created spirituality. Satan organized it and called it religion." That's exactly what people did. They manipulated the bible to control the masses and obtain power.
God > Science
Science > Religion
Game over.Easy there.
I'm not defending religion, I'm defending the Creator. I think you need to read my set of rules again as well. Tyson merily identified that scientists who create theories outside of a god are more admirable. Read his article with that thought in mind and I am sure you will see the same agenda. 
61- thetruthhurts2009
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Evolution Guy wrote:
sooner than later wrote:
I am very greatful for science. I enjoy our advances in the medical fields, engineering, technology and so on but I feel evolution science is failing. I was a firm believer for over 30 years. Many have tried to bring meat to the table a few times from both sides. What I would like to do is talk in an intillectual maner about the Creator and about Evolution. It will include biblical quotes on our side- and hopefully scientific evidence from your side.
Rules;
1. No trolls
2. No insults from either side.
3. No hit and run comments.
4. Make this one as clean and factual as possible.
5. Respect the "enemy"- we are all brothers and sisters in mankind by religion or evolution.
6. Start by apologizing to those you have insulted.
Proof God exists commences now.
You are refuting every piece of scientific knowledge we have. Evolution is not the only proof that we and the planet are a lot older that you are suggesting.
What is ironic is your use of a computer to even attempt to make this argument. Evolution happens, is happening and will continue to happen. No scientist would attempt to deny this.
It is not really worth arguing with you because you are arguing from an untenable desperation which is unlikely to be swayed by reason, logic or facts. One can only assume that the proof of evolution that is absolutely not in question has caused you to realize your beliefs are false so you feel the need to defend them.
I am really sorry that your beliefs have been proven to be garbage by scientific advancements. That was not the intention. No scientist sat down and aside, "Let' s see if we can prove the religionists wrong."
No - what they said was, "Gosh! 6,000 years ago an invisible super being drew us in the dirt? Says the man with the holy book. Oh dear - that does not agree with the millions of observations we are making. Lets investigate - see if we can't come up with more reasonable explanation that actually fits the facts."
And I am not really interested in proving every single evolutionary step of every single animal on the planet. Odd that you bleat about proof when you have absolutely no proof whatsoever for your invisible creator.
And I do not need to apologize to you. If I called you ignorant or uneducated or deliberately obtuse - it was not an insult - merely a statement of fact.
This is an example of one animal's evolutionary development:
http://www.sciencemag.org/cgi/content/s … /5716/1728
You will have to sign up to read the article as it is rather long, but here are some pictures to help you to understand better. The evolution of the horse.
A simple explanation is here:
http://laelaps.wordpress.com/2007/09/17 … evolution/
With a few pointers as to why the creationist argument against evolution is largely semantics and smoke screens with no real basis in science. The said arguments against evolution are here:
http://www.answersingenesis.org/
Most of which seem to be "Evolution couldn't have happened because it is too unlikely."
Therefore God drew us in the dirt 6,000 years ago and all the proof is actually lies. I have heard some interesting and entertaining arguments.
The spider woman's claims of dinosaurs being mentioned in the bible. Oddly silent as to why God decided to wipe them out - presumably they sinned very very badly in some way?
The fact that people lived a lot longer back them because of the extra oxygen in the air. not that climate change is happening or anything. Personally - If I genuinely believed people used to live 800 years -= and we have screwed up the planet so badly we now only live 90- or so - I would be more concerned about changing that than I would about trying to fight proven scientific facts with this sort of poorly thought out argument that can only attract ridicule and ill will when it is taught to children. Child abuse is the word you are looking for.
Now I understand that light actually travels much faster than we thought because it goes faster at the beginning and the stars were prolly a lot closer than they were 6000 years ago.
Evolution proves there is no god. Or at least - your god does not and can not exist.
A Random creator who made the universe by throwing a bunch of stuff in and seeing what came out? OK - I could go with that. The one with the rules and the guilt? Irrational garbage. Sorry dude - your beliefs are worthless. No insult intended."Only a rookie who knows nothing about science would say science takes away from faith. If we truly study science, it will bring you closer to GOD." James Tour-Nanoscientist
Evidence provided by Dr. Heinz Lycklama
The entire horse evolution series was disproved years ago. No knowledgeable scientist would support the horse evolution as depicted in textbooks today. Some of the evidence against the proposed theory includes:
Eohippus was referred to as Hyracotherium by its discoverer because of its resemblance to the genus Hyrax, which was not a horse
The number of lumbar vertebrae changes from six to eight and then back to six in the “horse series.”
Fossils of three-toed and one-toed species are preserved in the same rock formation in Nebraska, showing that they lived at the same time
Modern horses vary in size from 17 inches high (Fallabella in Argentina) to the 7 foot high
As for the age of the earth. How does earth's magnetic field affect the formation of Carbon 14?
Mark, your faith in Atheism is illogical and weak.- 27
- Evolution Guy
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thetruthhurts2009 wrote:
"Only a rookie who knows nothing about science would say science takes away from faith. If we truly study science, it will bring you closer to GOD." James Tour-Nanoscientist
Evidence provided by Dr. Heinz Lycklama
The entire horse evolution series was disproved years ago. No knowledgeable scientist would support the horse evolution as depicted in textbooks today. Some of the evidence against the proposed theory includes:
Eohippus was referred to as Hyracotherium by its discoverer because of its resemblance to the genus Hyrax, which was not a horse
The number of lumbar vertebrae changes from six to eight and then back to six in the “horse series.”
Fossils of three-toed and one-toed species are preserved in the same rock formation in Nebraska, showing that they lived at the same time
Modern horses vary in size from 17 inches high (Fallabella in Argentina) to the 7 foot high
As for the age of the earth. How does earth's magnetic field affect the formation of Carbon 14?
Mark, your faith in Atheism is illogical and weak.
Sorry your beliefs have been proven to be garbage. You must be very angry. Angry enough to lie? Apparently. - 61
- thetruthhurts2009
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Evolution Guy wrote:
thetruthhurts2009 wrote:
"Only a rookie who knows nothing about science would say science takes away from faith. If we truly study science, it will bring you closer to GOD." James Tour-Nanoscientist
Evidence provided by Dr. Heinz Lycklama
The entire horse evolution series was disproved years ago. No knowledgeable scientist would support the horse evolution as depicted in textbooks today. Some of the evidence against the proposed theory includes:
Eohippus was referred to as Hyracotherium by its discoverer because of its resemblance to the genus Hyrax, which was not a horse
The number of lumbar vertebrae changes from six to eight and then back to six in the “horse series.”
Fossils of three-toed and one-toed species are preserved in the same rock formation in Nebraska, showing that they lived at the same time
Modern horses vary in size from 17 inches high (Fallabella in Argentina) to the 7 foot high
As for the age of the earth. How does earth's magnetic field affect the formation of Carbon 14?
Mark, your faith in Atheism is illogical and weak.
Sorry your beliefs have been proven to be garbage. You must be very angry. Angry enough to lie? Apparently.Nice retort. Again you call me a liar(with no proof) so you can hold on to your irrational faith in atheism. poor mark.
- 61
- thetruthhurts2009
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sneakorocksolid wrote:
Dear liberals, gays, atheists, abortionists, petas, one world governmenters, womens rights advocates, welfare recipients, race baiters, muslums, europeans, whale kissers, grazers, tree huggers, enviromentalists, peaceniks, politically correctors, agnostics, college students and all other free thinking radicals I'm sorry you got pissed off at me. I really do love you all(at a distance) and want to be your friend!
Is that ok? - 27
- Evolution Guy
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thetruthhurts2009 wrote:
Evolution Guy wrote:
thetruthhurts2009 wrote:
"Only a rookie who knows nothing about science would say science takes away from faith. If we truly study science, it will bring you closer to GOD." James Tour-Nanoscientist
Evidence provided by Dr. Heinz Lycklama
The entire horse evolution series was disproved years ago. No knowledgeable scientist would support the horse evolution as depicted in textbooks today. Some of the evidence against the proposed theory includes:
Eohippus was referred to as Hyracotherium by its discoverer because of its resemblance to the genus Hyrax, which was not a horse
The number of lumbar vertebrae changes from six to eight and then back to six in the “horse series.”
Fossils of three-toed and one-toed species are preserved in the same rock formation in Nebraska, showing that they lived at the same time
Modern horses vary in size from 17 inches high (Fallabella in Argentina) to the 7 foot high
As for the age of the earth. How does earth's magnetic field affect the formation of Carbon 14?
Mark, your faith in Atheism is illogical and weak.
Sorry your beliefs have been proven to be garbage. You must be very angry. Angry enough to lie? Apparently.Nice retort. Again you call me a liar(with no proof) so you can hold on to your irrational faith in atheism. poor mark.
Well sweetheart saying "X has been disproven" when it has not is actually lying. I know it is for jeebus, but it still counts as lying. Sorry.
And I hate to say it - but my lack of belief in your invisible super being (which I have not seen you put an argument forward for) has nothing to do with the fact that evolution happens.
That is just common sense. Not sure why you continue to lie either. It is just persuading me that you do not actually believe it either. You must be very angry - and it shows.
=) 
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=( 
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:O 
:/ 
:P 
:lol: 
:mad: 
:rolleyes: 
:cool: 
