Homosexuality: Truth and consequence

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A.Villarasaposted 13 years ago
The news report that a college freshman took his own life when he found out that his roomate and the roomate's girlfriend recorded his private/intimate homosexual encounter in his dorm room then broadcasted it via live stream on the internet, was unsettling on more than one front. But the most important question to be asked is, if this was a case of a heterosexual encounter, would the college student have killed himself? The truth is there is still such a societal/cultural bias against homosexuality that the boy consequently thought it better to end his life rather than face the torment of societal/cultural animosity to an act that is and should have been kept private.

On another front, the truth is medical research is going deeper and deeper into the physio-pathology of intrauterine fetal growth and development, and it is entirely possible that a rational/medical intrauterine basis for homosexuality would be found. This is pure conjecture on my part, but should that rational basis be found to be amenabe to medical intervention intrauterinely. should sociey then give its nod to it in the hope that the "scourge" of homosexuality would forever be banished from the cultural landscape?
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  Brenda Durhamposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Ummm I find that too unstable, messing with inter-uterine development, since the results would be unproveable.
  
  And taking away a person's choice is taking away his/her accountability.
  
  I'm still wondering why people continue to put forth the idea that anyone engaging in homosexual activity is not responsible for their behavior; and why speaking morality is considered "bias".
  
  But hey, for those who claim they can't help being homosexual, and ask why would anyone choose that lifestyle knowing how unpopular it has always been, then maybe it would be an option in THEIR eyes. But then, that would put an end to the whole homosexual agenda, wouldn't it?! Plus, it would make THEM the genetic tyrants trying to "create" "good" people, and they'd be blasted by their own proponents. So I don't think they'd go for it. They prefer to label the lifestyle as legitimate and good and to force it upon society via the legal system.
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  Jeff Berndtposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  " But then, that would put an end to the whole homosexual agenda, wouldn't it?!"
  
  How do you 'put an end to' something that doesn't exist?
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  Brenda Durhamposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Why don't you ask people who are trying to put an end to "homophobia"?
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  Stevennix2001posted 13 years agoin reply to this
  brenda, one can argue that people promoting homophobia also have an agenda as well if you go by your own logic. you see, it works both ways. i for one, don't believe there is an agenda when it comes to gay activism, as you so eloquently put it.
  
  no, all it means is that a gay person just wants the same respect, acknowledgement, and rights as everyone else. I don't see anything wrong with that. as long as they don't push their beliefs on me, then we're cool. it's only if a gay person constantly hits on me, without listening to the words,"sorry, im straight", that's the only time you'll ever see me get mad at a gay person for being who he is. other than that, i have no problem with them. neither should you, as it's their life. besides, it's not our place to judge them or anyone for that matter.
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  Brenda Durhamposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  I'm not mad at the ones who struggle with their temptations.
  I'm mad at the ones who try to force me and the rest of society to label their activities as right and parallel to heterosexuality and want to take away the sanctity of marriage.
  
  The saddest part is that Tyler's future is wasted, and the vengeful hand of liberalism will use his death for their own purposes instead of thinking of his inner struggle with his conscience.
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  tommyjposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  The gay agenda, and how tired certain people are of hearing about it.
  
  The gay agenda is to achieve equal rights. You will continue hearing about the gay agenda until equal rights have been achieved, and you will then continue to hear about the gay agenda until equal respect and societal acceptance have been achieved as well.
  
  From the looks of things, Brenda, you will be long gone by that time.
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  Brenda Durhamposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  You might be too.
  In that case, future generations will fight it out Spiritually, verbally and legally, if not literally.
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  tommyjposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  I'm mad at the ones who try to force them and the rest of society to label their activities as wrong and less good or deserving of equal rights than heterosexuality and who want to take away the sanctity of their marriages.
  
  Some people do still believe in the sanctity of marriage, Brenda.
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  Brenda Durhamposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Not the people you're talking about.
  The people in that agenda want to USE the sanctity of the label "marriage" to sully it with their own vengeful version of it.
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  Deborah Sextonposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  ______________
  Divorce does that too. Its just wrong.
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  tommyjposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  How is gay marriage "vengeful"?
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  Mark Knowlesposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  I see Brenda is still pushing her pro-divorce agenda.
  
  My Great Grand Mother would have known how to deal with a brazen hussy intent on subverting family values and living in sin. Disgusting really.
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  Brenda Durhamposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  "Hussy intent"?
  
  Wow Mark. I feel so mysteriously endowed now. Thanks.
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  Stevennix2001posted 13 years agoin reply to this
  
  well to each their own brenda. you don't have to agree with everyone, but i think it's more important to respect the other person's right to live their own life. after all, you wouldn't want someone criticizing you for being who you are, so why should you do the same. as far as marriage goes, i used to believe marriage was a sacred thing. however, as i've talked to some of the hubbers on here, i've come to realize marriage is just a legal justification of saying you love someone. it doesn't mean anything. heck, two people can easily elope and still live a happy life as a married couple, and nobody would be the wiser. besides, who says you need a ring on your finger to prove that you love them? i always felt love was something so much more than materialistic things.
  
  that's kind of why I don't really care about the ban gay marriage issue, as i know it's one of those silly laws that's going to get appealed anyway within the next 50 years or less. therefore, it's just a waste of tax payer's money to ban something that we all know is going to be more openly accepted as time goes on. heck, not even all the states follow that ban, so that's a clear indicator right there that the ban on gay marriage will eventually go away.
  
  Sure, you may not have to like it, but it's important to respect others for their own beliefs. after all, are we no different than the Christians that used logic like, "I'm going to purify your soul by killing you", when they tried to convert the Native Americans during the earlier colonial days? Are we still no different than we were back then?
  
  Finally, we can agree on something here. Although I can't say I agree with this later part of your statement entirely, I do find some logic in it. It's kind of like the kids who shot their classmates at columbine. Everyone was so quick to blame the school system, without even considering the possibility that other factors might've been at play. Like what was their life like at home? What was the relationship with their classmates and friends? Or what if they were already dementally insane? Nobody considered any of those things. Let alone even bothered to report what problems those boys had. It's like Marilyn Manson said in "Bowling for Columbine", "If i could talk to them today, i wouldn't say anything and listen to everything they had to say. After all, nobody else ever did." Therefore, your right. liberals and the media will probably use this as a lightning rod for free publicity. there's no doubt about that.
  
  That's why I think it's sad the media is focusing too much about this kid's sexuality, and not focusing more on the aspect of what was truly bothering him to the point of commiting suicide. Heck, if he was alive today, I would do the exact same thing Marilyn Manson would've done for those boys at Columbine. I wouldn't say anything to him, BUT listen to every word he had to say. After all, I don't think anyone else ever did, and that's probably why he commited suicide.
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  Jeff Berndtposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  "I'm mad at the ones who try to force me and the rest of society to label their activities as right"
  Nobody is trying to force you to approve of being gay, nor should they.
  
  "want to take away the sanctity of marriage."
  How precisely can the sanctity of marriage be taken away?
  Please explain that, because nobody has ever been able to do so in a way that makes sense.
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  Shadesbreathposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  I can't believe nobody called you out on this. This is the best example of what everyone has been trying to illustrate to you about your views, how monstrously superior and cruelly judgmental they are.
  
  The OP is saying that perhaps science can find the genetic cause of homosexuality.
  
  You say, "Ummm I find that too unstable, messing with inter-uterine development, since the results would be unproveable." Which is meaningless, because you aren't the scientist who is doing the finding. The OP says, hypothetically, they might find how that happens in the genes. Parents might choose to "turn off" that gene or whatever to spare their children from a life of ridicule and torment at the hands of folks like you.
  
  To which you say, "taking away a person's choice is taking away his/her accountability."
  
  Think about what you just said. You just said you don't want science to go turn off the genetic function if it became possible to do so. You want to make homosexuality continue so that people can be born with a GENETIC trait that you can then hold them accountable for finding a way to suppress.
  
  Your avatar has a blue eye. Let's say you have blue eyes. I would LOVE to see you suppress your blue eyes right now. Go ahead. Just suppress your eye color, whatever it is. Go for it, suppress that trait in the name of the Lord-ah! I'm waiting.
  
  How's that working out for you?
  
  Do you realize that you just admitted you don't want homosexuals to ever be free of your condemnation? You just said, out loud, for everyone to see, that even if science did discover that homosexuality was GENETIC and therefore completely out of the control of anyone's will, that you wouldn't want them to be made heterosexual which, by your belief system, is the way to God. So, you are actually saying, you don't want them to get to God at all.
  
  You want them for your scorn. And that is all.
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  Brenda Durhamposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Nope. You've assumed something, once again, that isn't true.
  First of all, I said it's unproveable. And it is.
  Secondly, it's not what I WANT, but what is naturally do-able. In other words, I happen to know that humans were made with the ability to sin, and not only that, with the option to CHOOSE NOT TO SIN willingly.
  So, to take away that aspect would be to, as someone else here pointed out, take away their free will, thereby making them robotic.
  
  It's the same with our relationship with God.
  We must choose to Love Him, not just be like an ant under His feet that He can squash at any time (although He COULD if He wanted to). He doesn't want us to be robotic things, He wants us to willingly choose to Love Him. He issues that challenge to us all the time. Jesus issued the same challenge.
  In the garden of Eden, God asked Adam questions. Just like He asked Cain questions after Cain killed Abel. God knew the answers already, but He asked questions, challenging them to survey their own hearts and minds and come to an honest conclusion.
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  Shadesbreathposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Yep, like I said, you don't want them to get to God. You're going to ignore anything that doesn't suit your sanctimony.
  
  Fortunately, forums like this illuminate the egregious aspect of the belief system to which you subscribe and enable the rest of us to rally together against the dangers of such medieval mores.
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  Brenda Durhamposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  You are full of......erroneous misconceptions, Shadesbreath.
  And apparently cannot even stick to the subject at hand. It is that liberal agenda that's "victimizing" Tyler and others who struggle with the things he struggled with. You prefer to pass the buck and insult people like me who disagree with your view.
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  Shadesbreathposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  No, I pointed out exactly what you said, with your words as you wrote them in response to the OP--that is the original subject to which I am still trying to stick and from which you are still trying to run. As usual. Any rancor you detect is born of your flagrant refusal to see the paradoxical nature of your "loving" desire to see the "sinners choose the right path" while admitting that you wouldn't allow them choose that path were it determined to be genetically possible to do so. In a small child or even a teenager, this sort of willful ill-logic is easily dismissed, but in someone of, in theory, adult age who is as active as you are, it's dangerous and must be countered with reason and a type of goodwill that does not come with so many strings.
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  Brenda Durhamposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Ummm no, any rancor coming from you is because you insist on assuming I don't care what Tyler went through.
  There is nothing I or anyone can do about it now. It would be good if we could! But there is no hope.
  If Tyler were still alive and I had the opportunity to tell him anything, I'd tell him that there is forgiveness for those who repent of any sin, and that he's very talented and has the same chance as anyone else of living a well-balanced, joyful life. I'd tell him that everyone at some time does something shameful and wrong, and that it's not the end of the world; I would impart hope to him if I could.
  What would you tell him?
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  Ohmaposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  as long as he denies the essence of who he is and conforms to live his life as you see fit. Right? I just thought I would help you finish that thought.
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  Brenda Durhamposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  We ALL have to deny the essence of who we are, or at least of what we're capable of. And that is that we're all capable of, and bound to, sin, until we respond to our conscience and change our ways.
  And thanks for reaching out, but I don't need anyone to "help me finish my thoughts"! ha
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  Ohmaposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Yep as I suspected your way or no way. Truly a great example of tolerance there.
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  Shadesbreathposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Wrong. I insisted nothing about that kid because I couldn't (and still haven't) gotten you past the point of your paradoxical position yet.
  
  And frankly, you using his first name with such casual familiarity, acting like you care in the same breath you tacitly condemn him to hell is nauseating.
  
  But, since you can't do anything about it, obviously this really means he died unrepentant and has no chance of a "well-balanced, joyful life." He died "shameful and wrong" and, since he is gone, it IS "the end of the world" for him, so, there is no "hope" to "impart."
  
  All I can do is stare into my screen and shake my head in awe when I read the things you say.
  
  I would tell him that the world is full of snakes and vipers who will pretend to care about him, but whose love comes with conditions and judgments. I would tell him not to listen to them, to ignore those whose dark hearts are masked by saccharin words of pseudo-piety, poison that drips acidic from the fanged mouths of hypocrites and fools and falls hissing at his feet. I would tell him he should be strong and push through the difficult time of youth, when the opinions of others weigh most heavily, and that there are many who will truly love him, despite what some hateful people say, especially those who corrupt the memory of Jesus and try to steal his glory for themselves. That's what I'd tell him.
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  qwarkposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Shades; Not that it matters to ya, but I'm
  proud of ya!
  Don't know what the words about this jesus guy have to do with anything...but man, you expressed your sentiments better than I could have...I'm standing, whistling and clapping!!!!
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  Brenda Durhamposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  I see.
  So, to summarize, you'd tell him it's okay to do just anything he wants to do, and that he would never have to take personal responsibility for any of his actions.
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  Shadesbreathposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Yep. That's what I meant, all right. He can kill and rape and kick puppies to his heart's delight. Zero responsibility. That's exactly what I said. Yep. You are an awesome summarizer.
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  Baileybearposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  well, who was he hurting? What right do you have to judge, because you have the arrogance to think your religion is right?
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  Baileybearposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  powerful metaphors there, shades
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  Baileybearposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  True that you can't do anything for Tyler, but surely these condemning attitudes based on someone else's belief system does not help other people in a similiar situation. Not much difference to how the Ku Klux Klan justified being racist because of their religious beliefs (and KKK was a sect arising from christianity)
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  Deborah Sextonposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  __________________________
  If you say you love God, and hate another, you are a liar
  Per your bible
  
  1 John 4:20
  If a man say, I love God, and hates his brother, he is a liar: for he that loves not his brother whom he hath seen, how can he love God whom he hath not seen?
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  Brenda Durhamposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  I see you're still ranting away, trying to deflect from the subject of the thread. Wow. Where do you get all your energy? Amazing!
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  SirDentposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Red Bull!!!
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  Stevennix2001posted 13 years agoin reply to this
  red bull gives you wings!!!
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  SirDentposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  
  True. AMP?
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  Stevennix2001posted 13 years agoin reply to this
  whats amp?
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  SirDentposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  http://www.ampenergy.com/
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  Stevennix2001posted 13 years agoin reply to this
  nah, i don't do energy drinks. sorry, that crap tastes terrible. nah, i'd rather have...COFFEE! the energy drink of champions!
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  SirDentposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Same here. I have never tried an energy drink in my life.
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  Brenda Durhamposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  ROFL.
  I agree it's bull; just didn't think of Red Bull! hahaa
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  Deborah Sextonposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  _____________________
  No, it's just my energy against barbarians
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  Deborah Sextonposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  _____________________
  Yes, still ranting.
  But I don't wish for anyone to be harmed, as you do.
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  Deborah Sextonposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  ______________________
  It's a medical condition which can't be helped.
  If someone could help it, they wouldn't die because of it.
  
  But, now, divorce can be controlled.
  
  You act as though you are better, for some reason.
  
  Homosexuals are people.
  
  Seems cold and loveless to me.
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  Baileybearposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  homosexuals are people...exactly. I get the feeling in these forums that "believers" see others as hunks of meat with a soul that needs converting, rather than as people
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  Mark Knowlesposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  How do you feel about causing the death of a young man by constantly attacking homosexuals as being a "scourge"?
  
  Bet you feel good huh? Like wot jeebus sed?
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  Diane Insideposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  whether we agree with what this boy was doing or not, it was wrong of his dorm mate and girlfriend to publicise this.
  
  He is not at fault they are and they should be dealt with, in whatever way the law sees fit.
  
  Not for ending his life but for invasion of privacy. etc
  
  This young man had some other issues that caused him to kill himself, he was obviously mentally unstable, as is anyone who commits suicide.
  
  He caused his own death.
  
  But I do believe those two should be dealt with, in what capacity I don't know but they are bullies, that should be put in their place.
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  dutchman1951posted 13 years agoin reply to this
  they are not mearly bullies, they, their actions, contributed to a death, it is more serious than that!
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  Brenda Durhamposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  I agree Diane.
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  tommyjposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  If a death results from a crime, a charge of manslaughter is appropriate.
  
  That said, this boy didn't take his own life due to the posting of the video. This boy took his own life because he couldn't face the societal repercussions. Societal prejudices killed him. Societal prejudices which are caused by religion.
  
  Religion is a hate crime, the execution of which caused this boy's death.
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  Woman Of Courageposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Diane, I have every reason to agree with you. I felt sad for this young man to commit suicide. I feel that he was already struggling inside with being a homosexual. The two people should be charged only with invasion of his privacy.
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  Baileybearposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  how do we know he wasn't from a strict religious family, and they didn't know the real him as was "shameful" to the family?
  
  Is still cruel for someone to post a video like that without his consent - young people do all sorts of brainless things like put videos up of fights etc
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  Brenda Durhamposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  lol Mark.
  
  ....I think it's possible you misunderstood A. Villarasa's intent. I personally think he's...ahem...on YOUR side basically, but was asking if society would be willing to go for a "cure" for homosexuality. Not sure, but that's what I saw....anyway, he can tell his opinions if he wants to.
  
  But it does bring up another great question----if people who aren't in the womb (ADULTS) were offered a "cure", would they go for it??
  I doubt it. Because, once again, it boils down to free will (choice). And I think they (or the majority anyway) LIKE engaging in homosexuality so much that they wouldn't entertain the notion of a "cure" anyway. It would be interesting to see responses to that, though. Especially since there IS a "cure" already......and it's called self-control.
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  Daniel Carterposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Homosexuality as a "choice" is about the same as you choosing your race and color of your skin.
  
  Since we know the genetics of skin color, the question would be, would you change the color of your skin because a group you belonged to thought you ought to?
  
  Makes no sense.
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  Brenda Durhamposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  That's just not even true.
  Skin color is something over which we have no control.
  Come on, Daniel, don't tell me you have no control over whether you engage in sex with someone or not.
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  Daniel Carterposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  The choice to have sex is what can be controlled, and should.
  Still the point is about invasion of privacy, bullying and suicide, not with WHOM he had sex. Has nothing to do with it.
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  Jeff Berndtposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  "Still the point is about invasion of privacy, bullying and suicide, not with WHOM he had sex."
  
  Indeed. The guy's roomie invaded his privacy. I don't care if he could have "known" that the kid would kill himself or not, you don't get to secretly tape your roommate's (or anyone's) activities when they have a reasonable expectation of privacy.
  
  It wouldn't matter whether the roomie taped the kid having sex, masturbating, or dancing around the room dressed as Tron. It was a criminal invasion of privacy.
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  Brenda Durhamposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  No one is disputing that!
  What's being disputed is whether or not the two people charged for invasion of privacy are also guilty of his death.
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  Jeff Berndtposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  "I take it you're mad because I didn't cave in to your bashing of the roommate and his girlfriend without you even knowing if their motivation was innocent or not."
  
  Okay.
  
  Is anyone but Tyler guilty of his death? No. His roommate didn't kill him.
  His roommate did a horrible thing, and deserves the consequences for it, but I don't see how he can be guilty of murder.
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  A.Villarasaposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Here you are again Mr. Knowles shooting off your nippy-nappy comments that neither has wit nor grit. If you read my post closely I put in quotation marks the word "scourge" to indicate that I do not personally subscribe to that idea, but that some people do.
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  Mark Knowlesposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Oh - that is what that meant? Sorry - I didn't get the memo. Thought you were just stirring some trouble as usual.
  
  Your invisible super being is OK with butt sex then?
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  A.Villarasaposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Sex is sex no matter how it is done... humans( and animals like rats) participate in sexual activity for the pleasure it engenders in the participants. The fact that procreation is an "un-intended" consequence, as you so like to point out, is immaterial.
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  Stevennix2001posted 13 years agoin reply to this
  First of all, i think its sad whenever anyone (regardless of race, gender, sexuality, religious preference or whatever) commits suicide or even tries to for that matter.
  
  Secondly, it's hard to assess if the guy was already psychology unstable or not, as the shock of having his entire sex life exposed online could've been enough to push him over the edge. Kind of like how some CEO's commit suicide, when they lose all their money and their job due to an economic recession.
  
  Thirdly, his room mate and girl friend should be ashamed of themselves for filming his sex life. What right do they honestly have to do that? How would they like it if that happened to them? Or if they're private life was exposed for all to see? Some people are just jerks, and I hope those two are very happy with themselves over it.
  
  Fourthly, your query about a alleged cure for homosexuality is another example how controversial science can be sometimes. Anyone that says science isn't controversial is very naive, and needs to reevaluate their lives. Asking a person to take a pill or anything to deny them who they really are is just plain wrong. Seriously, how would you like it if they invented a pill to cure heterosexuality? Would you be for it? Hell no. I know I wouldn't, so why should I ask a gay person to be for a pill that denies them of their sexuality? What a man and/or woman does in the privacy of their own home is nobodies business than their own. Anyone that says different is selling something.
  
  Seriously, how is forcing a person to deny who they are even good? Was it right for Colonial Settlers to kill Native Americans when they refused to convert to Christianity? Was it right when Adolf Hitler ordered the deaths of thousands upon thousands of Jews just because they were different than the majority in power (excluding Hitler). Was it right that during the famine that happened in Ireland a while back that Catholics were persecuted by Prostestants just for being who they are? If you answered yes to any of this, then your a sick person that deserves to die a very slow and painful death if you ask me.
  
  The point im trying to make here is this, persecuting someone that's different from you are is just wrong. Heck, I don't do that at all. In fact, when i talk to a person, I don't see a black guy or a white guy. Heck, I don't even see purple, red or whatever. No, I just judge people based on their personality and the content of their character. As I never believe anyone is a 100 percent evil or good. Although some do favor one over the other sometimes. However, the point is, maybe the world should do the same. Not judge a person by his race, religious beliefs, gender or even his/her sexual orientation, but rather the content of their character. I know some of you ignored me in other religious forums when I brought up Martin Luther King's ideals. However, I only mention him because I consider him one of the greatest leaders of all time, and his words are something I think EVERYONE should live by. Sure, I know the guy probably had his flaws, but he made a lot of good points. Maybe people should think about that next time if they want to bash a gay person.
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  Bredaviesposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  No way! I don't think there should be any changing of the outcome of a person. That is like changing someone's skin so they have less of a hard time in the world.
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  Sally's Troveposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  This is a huge tragedy, but not isolated. If you are reading or listening to the news about homosexual bashing, bullying, and worse, the statistics are frightening.
  
  I learned about this tragic death from my mother who lives in New Jersey and keeps better tabs on my alma mater, Douglass College and Rutgers University, than I do.
  
  She and I have had long conversations about what happened. She is of the thinking that homosexuality is an abomination; however, this tragedy spoke to her about the right to privacy that any human has, and her heart goes out to this young man, barely in his adulthood, whose life came to an end for reasons we can speculate about but will never fully know.
  
  What kind of pressure did he feel to take the only way out he could envision? Was the reason for taking his life a matter of his own lack of belonging or a matter of pressure put on him by the sadistic unacceptance of the love of one man for another?
  
  He was so young. But he and his family are not alone. There will be more consequences like this until others accept that theirs is not the only way of life.
  
  This tragedy speaks of hatred. A hatred that is pervasive in this American society (and other societies as well). A hatred based on the fear that men might have longings for other men and hate themselves for it because this longing threatens their masculinity.
  
  For the most part, women don't feel that lesbian attention to them is a threat. They are accepting of this, pondering the impact, and make a decision. But they don't feel that this homosexual attention is a threat against their feminity, once they get past the surprise.
  
  Huge subject. Where's somelikeitscott?
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  Deborah Sextonposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  __________________________
  They found a while back, that there are certain parts of the brain, in homosexual men that are the same size of a woman's.
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dutchman1951posted 13 years ago
that couple filming it are responsible for contributing to that death. regardless of the action that prompted the secret taping.

as for culling out the bad seed...are we robot or human?
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  Diane Insideposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  I understand you feel this way, but if you were to commit suicide, would it be you doing or do you feel it should be put on someone else, because they made you feel bad, because you feel they made life unbearable.
  
  Or could you decide not to kill yourself, and find other means to cope with the situation.
  
  Like I said this young man was mentally unstable, and had this not occured he still could have committed suicide. No one really knows what he was thinking. He may have been suicidal already, in fact it is most likely that he was.
  
  Thanks Brenda for the support.
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  dutchman1951posted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Because I feel that way????????
  
  your words..."YOUNG" man say it all here. Young sometimes translates to over reaction and yes that couple is deff. responsible, directly so.
  
  and even more so if he was showing signs of instability. this was a deliberate act by them, this is serious, not a silly prank, they contributed to a murder-suicide directly from their actions.
  
  They are old enough to have conscience and they both are old enough to know right from wrong. If either oft hem could not decipher right from wrong they would not be functioning high enough to even attend a college!
  
  If that boy was a practicing homosexual, and he was one, then they are also old enough to know he is not thinking like they do. and His responses to life would be different. They know this inside of them before they took the action. It was not their place to expose him, tell on him, pick on him, or even hate him.
  
  they understood all of this in full when they picked up the device to film the act ! Their motive and actions were calculated and contributed to his making a decision to kill himself. Yes, they are responsible.
  
  I am not responding to this cause I feel that way. I am looking at their actions, they did that, it is not a feeling it is a fact. They put it on the net!
  
  it was a real act not a feeling. prison time is a good answer here. it is way too late for excuses like; I am sorry, I guess It was a dumb idea! BS!
  
  there are Human boundaries’ in Life, they crossed them, they have to pay for that. Just Because someone is Mentally un-stable is no reason to write them off as no loss. This is nuts to think like this. People who get complacent like you are implying here, make possible for all kind of hate crimes and stupid acts to happen.
  
  There are boundaries, weather we like them or not. We all have a right to exist, gay or straight. Sick or Well. Old or Young. The world is not yours to confidently arrange and write of certain folks because they may be un-stable, or sick or what ever you feel insignificant. That act happened, those kids did it.
  
  Prison time I say.
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  Brenda Durhamposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  They were his age, or close to it, correct?
  If you are to say that they knew it was wrong, and that it was a deliberate act of assault to put the video online, then.....the young person who died also knew that what he was doing was wrong, and should be responsible for his own actions too.
  Sorry, but you can't have it just one way. This is one case where you can "have it both ways" and hold ALL parties responsible for their own actions.
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  Stevennix2001posted 13 years agoin reply to this
  well to be fair brenda, you have to take in mind that not everyone is the same psychology, as there are those that are smarter than others (sad to say but its true. we're not all equal in life). Plus, you have to remember not everyone comes from the same upbringing and brought up on the same morals. Therefore, the kid that commited suicide probably didn't have a lot of friends growing up, and his parents probably never encouraged or supported him, while his room mate and girlfriend probably grew up with normal lives so to speak. Of course, I could be wrong about this, as I don't know any of the parties directly, but to say that everyone is going to have the same morals of right and wrong is being naive.
  
  don't get me wrong, I don't condone what the kid did. In fact, i always viewed suicide as the coward's way out in life. However, that still doesn't diminish the fact that the room mate and the gf should feel guilty for what they've done. after all, if the guy was that mentally unstable, the room mate should've known to what extent, since he lives with him for god's sake. therefore, him and his gf should've known better than to make that kid more depressed like they did by exposing his life on the internet like that.
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  dutchman1951posted 13 years agoin reply to this
  they contributed to him making a suicide decision, they were directly involved. He took his life, but they cornered him mentaly and he made the only decision he could reason at the time.
  
  they pushed him to the point, without reguard for him as a person or what he may face or go through. Yes,he did it. But Those kids are a part of it Brenda, no getting away from that.
  
  They had a direct influence upon his decision making process.
  
  we can eclecticly reason this all away and erase it mentaly, but they were still involved by thier own real and deliberate human actions.
  
  that, you can not write off as an I'm sorry moment. They knew better.
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  Jeff Berndtposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  "If you are to say that they knew it was wrong, and that it was a deliberate act of assault to put the video online, then.....the young person who died also knew that what he was doing was wrong, and should be responsible for his own actions too."
  
  Doesn't matter. The logical consequences of having sex do not include having your frolicking broadcast to everyone worldwide so everyone on earth can watch. If the kid had agreed to be taped while having sex, then yes, i suppose I could understand your position, but dang, Brenda. Where's that Christian compassion?
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  Brenda Durhamposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  The truth is that I think it's a horribly sad situation, and I have compassion for Tyler. But it's too late to do anything about his mindset now.
  I would've hoped that he would've been taught that there is forgiveness to be had for all sins, and that he would have somehow found the way to resolve his inner conflict.
  I think it did him no good at all to be in a nation or school where "diversity of sexuality" is taught so blatantly and where no one would even challenge the right or wrong of what he was engaging in. Instead, it seems apparent to me that his conscience was bothering him no matter how "free" society is, and that no one had told him how to refrain from acting upon his lusts......
  That's the thing about it----liberals in society want to pass the blame off onto someone else, instead of teaching the tried-and-true rules of repentance and forgiveness....
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  dutchman1951posted 13 years agoin reply to this
  I wounder if it was conscience or the fact that he was exposed, and on the net, felt like his life was over, jobs, chances, possibly kicked out of school, more than a conscience for the act itself. the news showed him as an acomplished violinist and maybe that was his dream, and with the net exposure, he felt it was over?
  
  what ever it was it was large enough to consume him.
  
  like Obama told one of the kids on a tour, when he told him he wanted to be president! Obama said, if you are planning to be President, don't do anything on the net!
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  Brenda Durhamposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Well, if one takes advice from Obama, one is already one step behind in being a proper President.
  
  If someone wants to use Obama's ways to be President, all they have to do is be charismatic and straddle the fence on all the issues.
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  Daniel Carterposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  ..."his conscience was bothering him..."
  
  ???!!!
  
  Put his shoes on, be video taped while you have sex with someone and then state clearly what that feels like. How far from the bridge would you stay?
  
  Conscience bothering him. That is just twisted.
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  Jeff Berndtposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  "I would've hoped that he would've been taught that there is forgiveness to be had for all sins, and that he would have somehow found the way to resolve his inner conflict."
  I would have hoped that he would've been taught that killing himself would be punishing himself for the sins of others. Near as I can tell, Tyler killed nobody, stole from nobody, violated nobody's rights, defrauded nobody, and hurt nobody. Where's the sin?
  
  "I think it did him no good at all to be in a nation or school where "diversity of sexuality" is taught so blatantly and where no one would even challenge the right or wrong of what he was engaging in."
  Sheesh, what planet do you live on!? If he were in a nation where nobody would raise an eyebrow to someone being gay, why the heck would his roommate even think taping him and his boyfriend in flagrante delicto would be a good idea? You imagine he killed himself because he felt so awful about being gay? I imagine he killed himself because people found out he was gay and he knew darn well what that would do to his career opportunities, his social life, (possibly) his family life, and so forth, because gay people get treated like crap by most of the rest of us, and you know it.
  
  "liberals in society want to pass the blame off onto someone else, instead of teaching the tried-and-true rules of repentance and forgiveness...."
  You are blaming the victim. The person who needs to repent is not Tyler, but the person who criminally invaded his privacy and posted the video online for all to see. That is the crime.
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  Deborah Sextonposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  ________________________
  You really shouldn't come to these threads and preach Jesus, and then show how much hate you have for those you are suppose to love. After evil remarks no one would be drawn to what you have to say.
  
  Your matter of fact attitude, shows you feel the human life, unless that life agrees with you, isn't worth a dime.
  
  What if it was your son, or grandson?
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  Brenda Durhamposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Deborah, I've never seen you be so judgemental, trying to put thoughts, even, into a person's head.
  You might perhaps take your own advice.
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  Deborah Sextonposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  _______________________________
  Trying to give someone information and truth/definition that's written in a book, can not be compared to thinking it is OK that someone died because he is gay.
  
  Wow! Priorities??
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  SirDentposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  He died because he jumped from a window and killed himself. A sad thing for sure, but he took his own life.
  
  Those roomies who recorded him doing what he did and posted it on the internet are hateful and wicked people. They deserve punishment for what they did, but they did not force the young man to take his own life.
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  Deborah Sextonposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  ________________________
  The court will disagree. It's a hate crime
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  Baileybearposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  yes, there was a young woman in Australia that committed suicide after long-term bullying. Her persecutors were charged
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  Jeff Berndtposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Hmm, there's a problem with that. You can't (or shouldn't) make a crime worse based solely on the motive behind it. That's punishing thought, not action.
  
  If someone kills me because he wants my wallet (even though there's not much in it), or because I looked at him wrong, or because he hates straight white guys, I'm just as dead, and no deader.
  
  Use the motive to build a case, sure. Show that the killer had a motive to kill me because, hey, look at all the anti-tall-straight-white-guy literature in his apartment and on his computer. But don't tack extra years onto his sentence because he hated me. If all he did was hate me, I'd still be alive.
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  Deborah Sextonposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  ___________________________
  I didn't pass the hate crime laws.
  Regardless, by law, it is a hate crime.Look it up.
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  Jeff Berndtposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  That's as may be, but "legal" doesn't equal "right."
  
  Killing somebody is killing somebody, whether you did it because they pissed you off, because you wanted their wallet, or because they worship the wrong god. The victim is just as dead, and no deader.
  
  I get that we need to charge people who paint swastikas on walls, or burn crosses on lawns, with something other than simple grafitti, because those things are blanket threats to the lives and well-being of whole groups of people, but we can charge those folks with assault. (Assault being making someone believe they're about to be harmed, as opposed to battery, the actual harming. Saying, "You wanna punch inna nose!?" would count as assault, while the actual punch would be battery.) We could even charge them with assault on every person in the targeted group who could be reasonably expected to see the graffiti. Paint a swastika on a Hebrew school, and you could get charged with threatening death to every single student and teacher there.
  
  Much more freedom-friendly than charging someone with the crime of hating people.
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  Baileybearposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  am I reading this right...you're actually saying his death is justified?
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  Joe Badtoeposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  That's a cold simplistic view of someone's life sn't it? I don't understand how anyone can think like that and dismiss life so easily.
  
  And who are you to judge what state of mind this young boy was in? Do you know him personally?
  
  Then again given who concurs with your view I'm shouldn't be surprised at the coldness and disinterest of a young life based loosely on the premise that this particular boy isn't considered 'normal' by a few narrow minds on here.
  
  How sad.and how empty.
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  Deborah Sextonposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  ____________________________
  It's just as wrong to cause death.
  People don't kill themselves for fun. Usually it is resulting from unbearable pain or fear.
  
  Where's the compassion?
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psycheskinnerposted 13 years ago
"sociey then give its nod to it in the hope that the "scourge" of homosexuality would forever be banished from the cultural landscape?"

No. Because it isn't one. It is part of normal human diversity.
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Brenda Durhamposted 13 years ago
It's true, we don't know everything about any of those people.
It will be interesting to see how the case is handled.
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  dutchman1951posted 13 years agoin reply to this
  I agree, will be interesting.
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Ohmaposted 13 years ago
Here is a thought. Why does homosexuality need a cure? It is not a disease or a mental illness. It is a fact of human genetics and simple biology.
I am appalled by the narrow minded responses here that are willing to shrug off the actions of the roommate and GF simply because the victim was gay. Did you get that yes I said victim and not only was he victimized by the roommate he was also victimized by the narrow minded people like some responding here who just can not seem to accept that people are different and that it is okay to be that way.
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  Brenda Durhamposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  I don't see anyone at all trying to "shrug off" the actions of the roommate and girlfriend. I do, however, see YOU and maybe someone else trying to totally shrug off any responsibility that Tyler had to use self-control not only with his sex habits but with the KIND of sex habits he engaged in.
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  Daniel Carterposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Suicide = self control in sexual behaviors?
  
  I think not. I think it has nothing to do with self control. Nothing.
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  Ohmaposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Your bigotry on this subject is sadly very well documented throughout HP forums. Not only are you constantly beating a dead horse you are also constantly wrong in doing so. "Tyler" was doing whatever he was doing in the privacy of his own space. He had every reason and every right to expect it to remain private. The fact that your own perverted sense of right and wrong leads you to believe that his being engaged in homosexuality gave these no doubt good upstanding christians the right to invade that privacy is not only truly sad but horrifying. What next? Should we cure redheads or blue eyed blonds maybe?
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  Brenda Durhamposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  I take it you're mad because I didn't cave in to your bashing of the roommate and his girlfriend without you even knowing if their motivation was innocent or not.
  
  For all we know, Tyler may have seemed very proud of his lifestyle, and the two others thought he would get a kick out of it being viewed by others.
  
  We just don't know, do we?
  
  And you apparently are regarding him as just another stepping-stone for the "hate crimes" homosexual agenda's activism.
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  Stevennix2001posted 13 years agoin reply to this
  yeah, but that still doesn't diminish the invasion of privacy by the room mate and gf. sure, i've been known to play a few practical jokes myself sometimes, but i would never do something that would push someone to commiting suicide like what they did. seriously, the room mate lived with the guy for pete's sake, so he should've KNOWN how well this joke was going to affect him if at all.
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  Jeff Berndtposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  "For all we know, Tyler may have seemed very proud of his lifestyle, and the two others thought he would get a kick out of it being viewed by others."
  
  Unless the roommate had Tyler's (and his partner's!) express permission to tape them having sex, it doesn't matter what their motivations were. If they didn't have the kid's informed, competent, adult consent, they were invading his privacy when they taped him.
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  Ohmaposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  First of all I am not mad.
  Secondly this like so many other things here is a prime example of what happens when people talk out of both sides of their mouth so to speak.
  You say that we can not know the roommates motives and I will give you that but in the same respect you presume to know that the young man who committed suicide must have been prideful and therefor the roommates actions were justified.
  Which is it to be either we understand the motive of both or neither.
  No matter how you slice it you are all for giving the roommate a pass because the crime he committed was committed against one of a group of people whom you persecute on a regular basis.
  What ever happened to love thy neighbor and Judge not, that ye be not judged???
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  Brenda Durhamposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  You're kidding, right?
  I guess not...
  Because you don't even see that it's me and other Christians who are constantly ridiculed and persecuted, simply for posting our beliefs! It is you and others who don't like US that usually make it personal by insulting us personally.
  Not only that, but we are constantly pressured to say it should be made into law, sanctioned by us; and every time there's a case like this one about Tyler and his roommate, it gets used to further that agenda.
  Some people just won't be satisfied until we cave in and say it's okey-dokey okay to engage in wrong and unsanitary sexual activities. I...don't think that's gonna happen.
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  Ohmaposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  I have never seen you attacked until after you start posting or responding to threads that persecute entire groups of people like gays.
  You really do not get it do you?
  It is fine for you to believe however you wish until those beliefs violate another persons rights.
  If you consider the responses you have gotten by many people on this thread alone all of whom are simply trying to explain to you that the issue here is the invasion of privacy and Tyler's right to expect privacy.
  You are so h@llbent on your persecution of gay people that you are trying to convict the victim in this situation.
  Truthfully you and people like you are the best argument in the world for why I chose to abandon your organized religion.
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  Baileybearposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  well said - my observations also
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  Jeff Berndtposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Indeed.
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  dutchman1951posted 13 years agoin reply to this
  I have to agree that Tyler had to exhibit control, and well should have. But so did those kids, neither of them did that, and went beyond reasonable action.
  
  but I do have to ask this also, did the room mate even object? or just act?
  and what was the gf doing in the room?
  
  were they mad because Tyler got in there with his partner, before they did? and they wanted the room for that time too? stuff happens!
  
  will be interesting to see it unfold.
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  Deborah Sextonposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  ______________________
  Sex habits?
  Why don't you read some medical books lady.
  Can you help that you are heterosexual?
  What CAN be controlled is hate for mankind
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  Baileybearposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  so here you are, continuing to judge after he is dead - that is sick
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  Stevennix2001posted 13 years agoin reply to this
  i agree with you completely. i don't think anyone could've put it better.
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  qwarkposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Ohma! I give you a standing ovation for that response!!!! TY!
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  Ohmaposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  TY Quark!
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  qwarkposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  YW!! :-)
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Hokeyposted 13 years ago
So whats wrong with being gay? To each his own. People should mind there own business. Your not going to a pretend lake of fire for eternity because your a boy who likes boys or a girl that likes girls. Religion sucks.
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  Brenda Durhamposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Well, that answered my question.
  At any rate, still nice to see you Hokey.
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psycheskinnerposted 13 years ago
There is no excusing what that ass of a room mate did. None. There is no 'acceptable reason' to secretly tape someone having sex and spread it around in public. None.
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psycheskinnerposted 13 years ago
Because this kid's death is all about you and your religion, obviously. (Just like every other thread in the forum)
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qwarkposted 13 years ago
My brother was gay!
Pls read the "hub" i wrote on homosexuality.

http://hubpages.com/hub/qwark30
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  Brenda Durhamposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  I think the majority of us know or are close to someone who engages in the homosexual lifestyle. So your experience isn't necessarily one to be used as some overwhelming example.
  
  And I did read it. Thanks. But if you were trying to prove a point about morality, I would've thought you'd use more tolerant and loving words than calling parents "disgusting, shameful examples of human life" just 'cause they wanted to teach their children right.
  
  Eh, qwark?
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  Stevennix2001posted 13 years agoin reply to this
  qwark, you are aware you not supposed to self promote in forums right? i know that probably wasn't your intention, but you can get banned if you do stuff like that often. just wanting to let you know.
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  qwarkposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Iknow that...If i'm banned, it was for a good reason.
  My "bro" was a great guy and worthy of my mention of him and my "hub." If the "management" sees fit to ban me for offering my experience with homosexuality in the family...and can't understand my reason for "trying" their rule...so be it.
  I'll be banned!....:-)
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  Stevennix2001posted 13 years agoin reply to this
  your a good man qwark. a bit brash, but your a good guy. hopefully, nobody reports you then. i won't, but i can't speak for anyone else here.
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  qwarkposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  ...appreciated Stevennix!!!
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  Brenda Durhamposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  I no longer report anyone. Does no good for me personally to. I'd imagine qwark is safe. Yes, even in his fervency of pointing us to a hub where he's calling conservative parents disgusting and shameful examples of human life, while he defends the "right" of people to engage in unnatural sex acts.
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  psycheskinnerposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Good on him.
  
  I don't care what people do in their own rooms. People prying into that stuff and condemning it is what leads to bright young men killing themselves.
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  Stevennix2001posted 13 years agoin reply to this
  well brenda, i wasn't referring to you specifically. i was just speaking in generalities thats all. sorry, i guess i didn't make that clear enough.
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  Brenda Durhamposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Okay. I just decided to make my own intent clear. So, again, okay.
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  Joe Badtoeposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  'I no longer report anyone'
  
  Really?
  
  I beg to differ.
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Stevennix2001posted 13 years ago
um...at the risk of sound naive here, but how did religion get mixed into this? i just read the original OP again, and it didn't mention anything in regards to religion, so why are we talking about that? shouldn't we be focusing this discussion on the well being of what caused that poor victim to kill himself? what drove his room mate and his gf to film him having gay sex and put it up online? was the victim really that ashamed by it? Or was this just one of the many acts of bullying done by the room mate, and this one act was just one that pushed the victim over the edge? Seriously, shouldn't we be focusing on what actually caused him to commit suicide rather than throw stones at religion, when there's no definitive proof religion was involved. heck, for all we know, everyone involved in this crime might've been all atheists or monkey worshippers for all we know (yes, some third world cultures follow monkey gods, as explained by the national geographic channel).
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psycheskinnerposted 13 years ago
It is bad enough that most of the thread are religious stuff, but now posts in other forums are about religion too. oy.
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psycheskinnerposted 13 years ago
It must be very dispiriting to be a gay hubber and see such horrible things said. Like a slap in the face from the hub community.
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psycheskinnerposted 13 years ago
There is plenty that can be done, for his family, from the people who torments him and for society in general to help prevent this sort of thing from happening again. *This is not about what Tyler should have done*, which is irreversable. It is about what everyone else around him should have done and should do in the future so his death is not for nothing. Like be a little more respectful of people's privacy and tolerant of their diversity.
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  Brenda Durhamposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  There ya go. You would have it used as a example of Obama's "hate crimes" addition, correct?
  And no example of the fallen state of mankind, no example of how a young man should've been taught about repentance and forgiveness.....no example of how one can be taught that their lives are worth something besides the sex habits they engage in.
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  Baileybearposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  is this a twisted way of saying it was his own fault?
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  Deborah Sextonposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  ______________
  In another thread, a while back, she said when a person is raped, it is something they did. She even implied they deserved it.
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  Jeff Berndtposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Is there any other way of saying it was his own fault?
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Ohmaposted 13 years ago
WOW
Isn't it about time that we persecute the criminals here.

What is your theory Brenda? He was asking to have his sex life broadcast to the world at large? Surely even your twisted sense of justice cannot go that far can it?
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  Brenda Durhamposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  If you'll notice, I've said that the roommate and his girlfriend should be prosecuted for what they did.
  But many here want to place ALL the blame on them and never take into account that the person who died, did so at his own choice.
  Wow, I'm hoping that none of you here who put forth such harsh accusations toward those two people will be on the jury that tries them.
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  Ohmaposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Harsh?? are you serious?
  They committed a crime that resulted in the death of another human being, you treat it like the victim deserved what he got and I am being harsh.
  I hate to burst your bubble Brenda but you are being very judgmental and cruel. You rant about God and the Bible and how everyone should believe and repent yet you are so filled with hate and bigotry that you cannot see passed this young mans differences long enough to acknowledge that he was the victim.
  It is a cruel world and people like this young man are victimized everyday by religious whack jobs who claim they are defending the morality of society. Being gay is not a choice anymore than being straight is a choice. The funny thing is if you follow the teachings of the Bible all of it not just the parts that support and fuel your bigotry you might have also learned that you are hating one of this Gods claimed creations.
  How exactly do you call that christianity?
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  Brenda Durhamposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Sorry, Ohma, but I'm not gonna keep on conversing with you or other people who are bent on making personal attacks toward me or other Christians.
  You'll just have to stew in your self-imposed prejudice and hatred.
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  Deborah Sextonposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  ___________
  What about attacks on the homosexuals?
  Do you really see yourself as justified?
  
  Christians?
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  Ohmaposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Brenda I do not indulge in personal attacks.
  I am merely pointing out the inconsistency in your attacks.
  As far as prejudice and hatred again you do not know nearly enough about me to make those kinds of judgment but then again I guess that really does not matter to you, after all it is one thing that you seem to excel at.
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  Joe Badtoeposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  "Sorry, Ohma, but I'm not gonna keep on conversing with you or other people who are bent on making personal attacks toward me or other Christians.
  You'll just have to stew in your self-imposed prejudice and hatred"
  
  Now that's what I call a brilliant parody!!!
  
  Someone who seems to spend her life attacking people who don't concur with her right wing views has the nerve to post the above quote!
  
  I so want to believe the irony but I know I'm just a dreamer..
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  Baileybearposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  maybe you'd better take the log out of your eye so you can remove the speck out of ours. Thank sanity I'm no longer a christian
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  qwarkposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  I like you Ohma! :-)
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  Ohmaposted 13 years agoin reply to this
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alternate poetposted 13 years ago
I have just got up and read through some of this thread.

I have to say that I am totally disgusted with the response of many people to this tragedy. So many posts take the position of the inhuman people who did the filming and caused this guy to take his own life. It is clear that many tacitly support the actions of this despicable pair of creeps who should be tried for this crime and be put in jail with the other antisocial elements of your society.

The usual suspects from the really stupid christian right are showing their really disgusting personal qualities as usual. It is at least clear that christian morality is a total sham and can be seen here in the slavering cross eyed views of Brenda et al.

If this is seen as a personal attack and anyone wants to report me then go ahead, it won't be the first time, some of the people here make this an unpleasant place at times and put me off the forums and my breakfast.
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Bill Manningposted 13 years ago
Wow, such wasted energy all around. I don't understand why people on both sides waste so much time and energy trying to change the others minds, which will never happen.

Time for me to watch a movie,,,, carry on!!
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marisuewritesposted 13 years ago
Surely a sensible person realizes that we are responsible for our words and actions that could cause another person harm, or to harm themselves.

Let's say, for instance, for fun or personal gain, we tell someone something that is untrue and hurtful, and they, acting on that information become so upset they harm themselves. We are responsible, morally and legally if found to be so, in a court of law.

Reason dictates we should not cross lines regarding another person's life. Those lines are more clear if we look around long enough to realize we're not all that matters.

Homosexuality is a complicated issue that can't be used as a weapon regardless of our personal beliefs and lifestyles. I don't have the right to tell you how to live in the bedroom, (or your house) between consenting and legal age individuals, nor you me.

A "Christian" should be about Love first and foremost, never taking the side of harming another who was not a threat to them.

I just don't understand anyone taking the time, plotting and planning to harm or embarass another. Maybe they didn't throw him to his death, but they certainly pushed. It's wrong. It was none of their business. We all have a basic human right to privacy, and if we do something that violates that right for another, then we are responsible for the outcome.

Don't hide behind the label of Christianity to imply that because the young man "sinned" in your opinion, he had less right to life. What?? He CHOSE to die? Have any of you who adhere to that thought ever been in despair? or Witnessed it from someone you loved? People in that amount of grief are not thinking clearly, and sometimes their impulsivity is final. Not a choice, a reaction, and one they can't take back.

If he were here, what would he say, or ask? And, what would you dare to say back? O, ye, without a heart, cast the first stone.

I won't. I'll spend my time endeavoring to reach out to help someone, whether I live the way they do or not. First, do no harm.
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  A.Villarasaposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  "First do no harm.." was an excellent ethical point of view to end your thought provoking post. A statement of fact: all doctors learn, from the very start of their clinical exposure (typically, the third year of medical school) to the medical problems of real, living, breathing patients, that their foremost duty to these patients is not to harm them in any way via sins of omission and or comission.
  
  Talking about ethical aesthetics, Immanuel Kant based his guideposts on two ideas: (1) doing one's duty is far more important than being happy (2) even if someone can predict what we are going to do in a particular situation, the prediction do not conflict with our use of free will.
  
  Reading the whole thread from my initial post to yours, convinced me that the passionate discussions by multiple hubbers of their varying belief systems touched tangentially, but mostly skirted the ethical guideposts that Kant proposed above.
  
  Knowing or perhaps anticipating the extreme unhappines that he would feel because of his prediction of a rabidly negative response of society at large to the live broadcast of his homosexual encounter, did the college student evade doing his duty to do no harm to himself by commiting suicide? Even if he correctly predicted that society would be severe in its reaction to his homosexual act, should that have conflicted with the use of his free will to do his duty to not harm himself?
  
  The above discussion becomes a little hazy when applied to the two perpetrators of the "crime". Was their invasion of the privacy of their peer counterbalanced by their need to be happy, and their sense of duty to do no harm tsunamized by their need for instantaneous kick and gratification. Even if they could predict what their peer would do in a situtuation they put him in, would the exercise of their free will conflict with what they ultimately decided to do?
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Mighty Momposted 13 years ago
God love ya, Joe Badtoe. You are the eternal optimist. You continue to look for the irony.
But there never is any.
I'm not sure if irony is too far above, or too far below.
*sigh*
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  Joe Badtoeposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  I know MM you're right my eternal opitimism is my way of trying to wish away all the selfish uncaring warmongering morons of this world.
  
  It's a lot of work but the rewards are fantastic.
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  alternate poetposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Irony requires a slightly elevated level of intelligence, none in the religious threads of course, but my kids were adepts at around age 5
  
  And Joe the optimist - you do realise that an optimist is just a misinformed pessimist ?
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  Joe Badtoeposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  I agree Alt
  
  and kids are terrific at irony long before they actually know qwhat irony means.
  
  'and god did create a plant called hemp and he did eat this natural remedy on a saturday night which is why sunday didn't get any work'
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Stevennix2001posted 13 years ago
wow, i can't believe this forum is still alive
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  Joe Badtoeposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  I can't believe its not butter
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SomewayOuttaHereposted 13 years ago
...read all the posts...
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Deborah Sextonposted 13 years ago
Brenda Durham wrote:

The truth is that I think it's a horribly sad situation, and I have compassion for Tyler. But it's too late to do anything about his mindset now.
I would've hoped that he would've been taught that there is forgiveness to be had for all sins, and that he would have somehow found the way to resolve his inner conflict.
I think it did him no good at all to be in a nation or school where "diversity of sexuality" is taught so blatantly and where no one would even challenge the right or wrong of what he was engaging in. Instead, it seems apparent to me that his conscience was bothering him no matter how "free" society is, and that no one had told him how to refrain from acting upon his lusts......
That's the thing about it----liberals in society want to pass the blame off onto someone else, instead of teaching the tried-and-true rules of repentance and forgiveness....

_________________________________
I doubt he had internal conflict and that his conscience was bothering him. He probably had parents with your attitude. And he was afraid that even being their blood, they would still disown him. Barbaric!
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alternate poetposted 13 years ago
Maybe it is time to put this thread to rest - the sickening attitude of the so-called christians posting here is beyond belief in even normally nasty people.

Debating the pros and cons of the case is just fuelling their foul minds - just not posting any more might be best ah ?
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livelongerposted 13 years ago
I'm gay and I actually agree with you, Jeff. I am against hate crime laws.

I understand that certain minority groups will always be more at risk of violence and other crimes, but I don't think hate crime laws are the way to remedy that.

I think calling out bigotry when it exists and making it unpalatable to younger people whose minds are still open is the way to balance out the efforts of bigots to minimize or condone violence against gays and other targeted groups.

I'd take equality under the law over hate crimes law "protections" any day of the week.

One small addendum, though: I don't think hate-crime motivated vandalism is charged as attempted murder. It is just another "layer" of crime to prosecute with, since it implies intimidation and not just defacing of property.
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  Jeff Berndtposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  "I'd take equality under the law over hate crimes law "protections" any day of the week."
  
  The problem with equality is that the dominant, white, male, able-bodied, Christian, heterosexual majority don't (for the most part) actually want equality. Most of us like the status quo just fine, and the idea of treating people who aren't like ourselves with the same respect as people who are like ourselves makes us nervous.
  
  Witness Brenda's fear of having to recognize the marriage of two gay people (not having to approve of it, but having to treat them as any other married couple would be treated).
  
  It might do us straight, white, able, Christians a lot of good to get treated truly equally for a while. Here's hoping.
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  livelongerposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  It will happen. I agree that it's a bit sad that for some, equality as a principle is not as important as maintaining a relative legal advantage. Thankfully their numbers are dwindling.
  
  BTW, they may be far fewer in number, but there are straight (and white and male) victims of hate crimes:
  http://www.fbi.gov/ucr/hc2008/data/table_01.html
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  Deborah Sextonposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  _______________________
  I am not pro hate crime laws either. Some people will always try to use it so a person will get a harsher conviction.
  
  But they exist and that is all I'm saying.
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  livelongerposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Yes, I agree with you, Deborah. I saw you just pointing out the facts in your previous posts.
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  Jeff Berndtposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Oh, no argument there, Deborah.
  
  Also, Live, your FBI link doesn't take me to what I imagine you wanted me to see. But yeah, I'm sure straight white males occasionally get beaten up or killed just because they're straight white guys. But they're no deader than if they'd been beaten up or killed because the assailants wanted their wallets.
  
  You don't have to be in the majority to be a tool.
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  livelongerposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  That is really odd - I swear the page was active the last time I looked at it.
  
  The stats are reproduced here:
  http://www.realcourage.org/2009/11/fbi- … tatistics/
  
  Agreed that the motivation doesn't impact the severity of the crime. However, the crime itself tends to instill fear in certain populations far more than others because it puts members of that community on notice that they're a bigger target, that they'll likely be selected to be victims of crime just because of who they are.
  
  Again, not to say I support hate crime laws, but this is the reasoning behind them and it is grounded in very unfortunate fact.
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  Jim Hunterposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  "Again, not to say I support hate crime laws, but this is the reasoning behind them and it is grounded in very unfortunate fact."
  
  The problem I have with hate crime laws is it seems to elevate one class over another.
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  livelongerposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  How so?
  
  Which class is elevated over others?
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