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Is there a limit to pampering China and Pakistan?

  1. thirdmillenium profile image60
    thirdmilleniumposted 7 years ago

    Why do subsequent administrations turn a blind eye to their transgressions?

    1. rhamson profile image77
      rhamsonposted 7 years ago in reply to this

      It's because China own us and Pakistan has the bomb.

      1. tksensei profile image59
        tksenseiposted 7 years ago in reply to this

        China does not "own us," and the Pakistani government currently cannot and would not use the nuclear weapons it has on the US.

        1. rhamson profile image77
          rhamsonposted 7 years ago in reply to this

          China owns our debt and they finance our dubious wars. If that is not beholding to someone I don't know what is.  That is why we pamper them when it comes to human rights and slave labor laws.  We can't be getting in the way of the cheap accessible labor market to feed our Walmarts and Target stores.

          As far as the bomb goes you get a great deal of respect when your country joins the bomb club.  Look how well it has worked and is being worked by tyrants like Ahmadinijad and Jong-Il.  North Korea got nuclear power plants from it from Clinton and Iran is working their magic in getting concessions lifted and a say in the regions politics.

          Pakistan is a whole other subject and while they may not pose a threat to the US directly there is evidense to support the bomb is making them a credible player in the region for an aliance.  This is why we just don't invade them going after Al Qaeda.

          Have you heard any of this before?

          1. tksensei profile image59
            tksenseiposted 7 years ago in reply to this

            This is all lovely rhetoric, but entirely empty. The old boys in Beijing do not have an oversized check book they sign that says "Dubious US Wars."

            1. rhamson profile image77
              rhamsonposted 7 years ago in reply to this

              Well the figures show that we owe te Chinese 798 Billion dollars in unsecured debt which is 23.35% the total debt owed.  They are our highest holder of our debt.

              You should read this:

              http://www.atimes.com/atimes/China_Busi … 1Cb06.html

              As far as financing our wars you should check it out for yourself.

              Do I have to tell you everything.

            2. rhamson profile image77
              rhamsonposted 7 years ago in reply to this

              No but they hold a large part of our debt and are willing to gamble on us to get part of it back.  Really where have you been?

              1. tksensei profile image59
                tksenseiposted 7 years ago in reply to this

                So they do, for what they recognize as their own best interests. It has nothing to do with specific actions the US government takes, as evidenced by the fact that China very often disagrees strongly with actions the US government takes.

          2. tksensei profile image59
            tksenseiposted 7 years ago in reply to this

            This also makes no sense. The US government does not hire cheap labor out of China, private US businesses do and even that isn't as simple as "cheap labor" (not slave labor).

            We do nothing about their human rights record but talk because we practically can do little else.

            1. kirstenblog profile image78
              kirstenblogposted 7 years ago in reply to this

              We can vote with our wallets and not buy from those stores who use labor so cheep as to be thought of as slave labor.....
              I am found of buying from charity shops for cheep clothing n such, supports a good charity and I often find real treasures that way!

              1. tksensei profile image59
                tksenseiposted 7 years ago in reply to this

                Cheap labor is NOT "slave labor," and I find that an irresponsible use of language.


                In any case, good luck not buying anything made in China.

                1. rhamson profile image77
                  rhamsonposted 7 years ago in reply to this

                  What do you consider slave labor? Is $0.28 an hour that you consider just cheap labor? That is an average of what they make and a lot of them are children.

                  1. tksensei profile image59
                    tksenseiposted 7 years ago in reply to this

                    You know what the word "slave" means, right?

            2. rhamson profile image77
              rhamsonposted 7 years ago in reply to this
            3. Bovine Currency profile image60
              Bovine Currencyposted 7 years ago in reply to this

              What were you saying about an economics lesson?

          3. tksensei profile image59
            tksenseiposted 7 years ago in reply to this

            No, that's not why.

            1. rhamson profile image77
              rhamsonposted 7 years ago in reply to this

              Then you tell me why.

              1. tksensei profile image59
                tksenseiposted 7 years ago in reply to this

                We don't invade them because they are a Democracy and an important ally in the region.

                1. janni321 profile image60
                  janni321posted 7 years ago in reply to this

                  Is this a kind of joke on democracy? lol
                  Pakistan is an important ally thats true but why? this is the real question. Everyone knows whats going on in Pakistan but US still following ''see no evil'' rule in pakistan and for your kind information it never had a real democracy so find reason other than democracy

                  1. AdsenseStrategies profile image73
                    AdsenseStrategiesposted 7 years ago in reply to this

                    Hopefully you don't invade whoever because you have got no freaking right to invade anyone! Jeeesh

                  2. tksensei profile image59
                    tksenseiposted 7 years ago in reply to this

                    No.

                  3. tksensei profile image59
                    tksenseiposted 7 years ago in reply to this

                    I know, that's why I said it. And it's also a Democracy in a place where we want to encourage Democracy.

        2. rhamson profile image77
          rhamsonposted 7 years ago in reply to this

          It must be true cause you say so.

          1. tksensei profile image59
            tksenseiposted 7 years ago in reply to this

            No, just because it is so.

    2. dyonder profile image79
      dyonderposted 7 years ago in reply to this

      I don't know if it's as much turning a blind eye as misinterpretation and confusion about different cultures. Take for example the manner in which Japan infiltrated America. Their way of doing business was, well it was foreign for us here in the states and they easily swept through American business transforming our economy. Not good or bad, it just happened, changing the way we (Americans) do business. That's just in the economic context, but it extends to the socio-political sphere as well. No country can truly be isolationist because that only invites, in a way even demands, trade in the black market & other underground channels. Even as we condemn, or conversely accept another country's behavior, or culture, we invite others to either perpetuate or work to halt behavior we may find disagreeable. May the best man/woman (read speices) win. Not the 'good' one, but the one(s) with the survival skills, whatever they may be for that particular climate.

  2. tksensei profile image59
    tksenseiposted 7 years ago

    Because both countries are very important to us.

    1. AdsenseStrategies profile image73
      AdsenseStrategiesposted 7 years ago in reply to this

      ...and if you refused to do business with every country that committed transgressions of any seriousness, you'd be trading with Denmark, Mauritius, and Togo, and that'd be it. (which doesn't excuse it, but at some point there is a practicality issue)

  3. cashmere profile image83
    cashmereposted 7 years ago

    There is some caution needed in dealing with both, that I agree with.

  4. earnestshub profile image87
    earnestshubposted 7 years ago

    Yes there is a limit when pandering to China and Pakistan.
    America too. They may put you in power then do a "regime change" on your sorry ass! smile

    1. tksensei profile image59
      tksenseiposted 7 years ago in reply to this

      Keep it in mind down there under.

  5. Shalini Kagal profile image81
    Shalini Kagalposted 7 years ago

    Maybe the answers to 'What happens if we don't pander to them?' are a bit too difficult to contemplate?

  6. Bovine Currency profile image60
    Bovine Currencyposted 7 years ago

    America is not really in a position to negotiate with China.  What pampering of Pakistan?  Not sure what you mean by this.

    1. tksensei profile image59
      tksenseiposted 7 years ago in reply to this

      Of course we are. YOU are not.

      1. Bovine Currency profile image60
        Bovine Currencyposted 7 years ago in reply to this

        I don't get the riddle.

        1. tksensei profile image59
          tksenseiposted 7 years ago in reply to this

          No riddle.

          1. Bovine Currency profile image60
            Bovine Currencyposted 7 years ago in reply to this

            so who is We?

            1. tksensei profile image59
              tksenseiposted 7 years ago in reply to this

              "We" is the United States. "You" is Australia.

              1. Bovine Currency profile image60
                Bovine Currencyposted 7 years ago in reply to this

                Like it or not, I am not Australia and You are not the United States.

                Tell me though, please, what bargaining chips do the US have against China.  China bought billions of US debt, they provide the supply for US demand.  Why does China care about the US?  Tell me.

                1. tksensei profile image59
                  tksenseiposted 7 years ago in reply to this

                  What country are you a citizen of?

                  1. Bovine Currency profile image60
                    Bovine Currencyposted 7 years ago in reply to this

                    You are failing to see the point.   But just to keep you entertained I am a citizen of Australia and Britain.

                2. profile image60
                  C.J. Wrightposted 7 years ago in reply to this

                  We buy all of their JUNK!LOL

                  1. Bovine Currency profile image60
                    Bovine Currencyposted 7 years ago in reply to this

                    Yes, we established that tongue

                    But now America has no money and China has all the US debt so where does that leave the junk trade?

  7. Bovine Currency profile image60
    Bovine Currencyposted 7 years ago

    China will take over soon, doesn't matter what anyone does.

    1. VENUGOPAL SIVAGNA profile image61
      VENUGOPAL SIVAGNAposted 7 years ago in reply to this

      Because of its size, population and economy, China cannot take over sooner or later... It will happen never.

      History tells us that a small nation called Japan defeated the most powerful Russian (Tsarist) empire in 1905. A small nation called Britain ruled over half of humanity. A small nation called Nepal held Tibet captive till 1959, receiving annual taxes from them.  A small country called Manipur (now in India) ruled over Burma more than a 100 years ago. Most parts of China came under Japan during WW-2.

      Even now, a small country called Israel faces more than 100 times its own population, ready to destroy it.

      No matter what their size, population is, the winners always are not the biggest and largest.

      1. Bovine Currency profile image60
        Bovine Currencyposted 7 years ago in reply to this

        It is fair enough to give examples of small nations that have dominated but to suggest that because of large size, large population and strong economy that China CANNOT take over... that seems a big leap

        1. VENUGOPAL SIVAGNA profile image61
          VENUGOPAL SIVAGNAposted 7 years ago in reply to this

          Some additional points... China is advocating a wrong side, underestimating its own neighbours, has no democracy, (which enables to take collective & proper decisions).

          Larger empires have fallen like cards against ruthless invaders. This region has seen everything. In the 11th and 16th century, large and wealthy empires in India were wiped out by Md.Ghori and Babar, who not even had a dwelling place. They came, they saw, they conquered. Wealth and size cannot protect anyone.   

          China can harass, torture, dismember or even kill only unarmed Tibetan monks. ("The Rape of Shangri la") They cant come out of their borders and do it. For strange reasons, the world keep silence on these points, while it sees "human right violations" in petty cases in other countries.

          1. AdsenseStrategies profile image73
            AdsenseStrategiesposted 7 years ago in reply to this

            The world is not silent on the persecution of Tibetans, I don't agree with that statement, and within China, most of us know there are human rights violations -- now, whether governments refuse to do business with the Chinese as a result is a different question...

            As I wrote earlier, who would you have left to do business with if you didn't do business with countries that have committed atrocities - look what Canada did to its aboriginal peoples, look how Britain dominated people with "iron fist in velvet glove" -- who are you going to do business with: Russia???

            No, I think perhaps that business and economic ties can be *leverage* to pressure China and other countries to shape up: of course, our Western politicians don't *actually* care about human rights in any case. *That* is the real problem

  8. Bovine Currency profile image60
    Bovine Currencyposted 7 years ago

    On another note, Australia is the number 1 supplier of Iron ore to China.

    1. tksensei profile image59
      tksenseiposted 7 years ago in reply to this

      And your next biggest buyer is...?



      ...Exactly

      1. Bovine Currency profile image60
        Bovine Currencyposted 7 years ago in reply to this

        Yes, China.  What are you getting at?

        1. tksensei profile image59
          tksenseiposted 7 years ago in reply to this

          That's why YOU are in no position to negotiate.

          1. Bovine Currency profile image60
            Bovine Currencyposted 7 years ago in reply to this

            What seems to be the issue here?

            Australia owns a large source of primary resources that China wants.  The US owns what?

            Are you lost?

  9. Bovine Currency profile image60
    Bovine Currencyposted 7 years ago

    I have made this clear many times before, I like China.  I hope they take over the world.  The fact Australia supplies Iron ore to China is a good thing.  What is it you are trying to reveal here?  What bargaining weight does US have with China?

    1. tksensei profile image59
      tksenseiposted 7 years ago in reply to this

      Don't hold your breath,'mate.'

      1. Bovine Currency profile image60
        Bovine Currencyposted 7 years ago in reply to this

        You still fail to answer the question.  What power does America hold over China?

      2. Bovine Currency profile image60
        Bovine Currencyposted 7 years ago in reply to this

        Allow me to rephrase, I will be glad when China takes over the world.  It is not a matter of hope, all evidence makes it obvious.

        1. tksensei profile image59
          tksenseiposted 7 years ago in reply to this

          Don't hold your breath, pengyou.

    2. tksensei profile image59
      tksenseiposted 7 years ago in reply to this

      YOU depend on China because they are your biggest (and an indispensable) customer. China depends on the US as its biggest customer. I hope this isn't too complicated.

  10. Bovine Currency profile image60
    Bovine Currencyposted 7 years ago

    America's custom is almost a fairy tale now seeing how it is so broke.  China has a huge savings account so I don't see that as an issue.

    1. tksensei profile image59
      tksenseiposted 7 years ago in reply to this

      LOL! Stay tuned for a biiiiig economics lesson!

      1. Bovine Currency profile image60
        Bovine Currencyposted 7 years ago in reply to this

        From you?  Not holding my breath...

        1. tksensei profile image59
          tksenseiposted 7 years ago in reply to this

          From life.

          1. Bovine Currency profile image60
            Bovine Currencyposted 7 years ago in reply to this

            Wisen up

            1. tksensei profile image59
              tksenseiposted 7 years ago in reply to this

              Stay tuned, pengyou.

  11. Bovine Currency profile image60
    Bovine Currencyposted 7 years ago

    I base my conclusions on evidence, what do you base yours on?  Besides patriot extremism.

  12. Bovine Currency profile image60
    Bovine Currencyposted 7 years ago

    Why don't you give me this economics lesson now?

    1. tksensei profile image59
      tksenseiposted 7 years ago in reply to this

      Oh no, it will have much more impact when it washes over you (if you are in a position to recognize it when the time comes).

      1. Bovine Currency profile image60
        Bovine Currencyposted 7 years ago in reply to this

        As I figured.

        1. tksensei profile image59
          tksenseiposted 7 years ago in reply to this

          Stay tuned. Remember.

  13. Bovine Currency profile image60
    Bovine Currencyposted 7 years ago

    Look at it this way, America has functioned for a long time without anything to offer the world, besides arms and custom.  If China takes over, it cannot do the same thing?  You believe China needs the US?

    Think about it hypthetically, China takes over, still maintains all its current business interests, plus takes over the role of dominant power.  Not difficult.

    1. tksensei profile image59
      tksenseiposted 7 years ago in reply to this

      Wrong. I'm sorry if America makes Australia feel insignificant. It need not, in my opinion.

      1. Bovine Currency profile image60
        Bovine Currencyposted 7 years ago in reply to this

        Get this right, I am not Australia, I do not base my individual worth on the economic cards of the national government.  Your suggestion is no more than a joke to me.

        1. tksensei profile image59
          tksenseiposted 7 years ago in reply to this

          You are Australian, despite your odd attempts to avoid mentioning it for so long. And good for you that you are. Seems like a nice place.

          1. Bovine Currency profile image60
            Bovine Currencyposted 7 years ago in reply to this

            I am Australian, yes.  I am not sure what you are getting at now.  I have mentioned my nationality previously, well before this forum topic.  I do recall intentionally not mentioning it at one point a few weeks back.  You still side step the point. 

            So far as Australia being insignifcant in world politics, well yes, of course!  That is one of its benefits.  It is a nice place for some reasons, not so nice for others.  I am not Australia tho, I just live here.

            1. tksensei profile image59
              tksenseiposted 7 years ago in reply to this

              Yes, I know. That's why I said it.

              1. Bovine Currency profile image60
                Bovine Currencyposted 7 years ago in reply to this

                ???

    2. tksensei profile image59
      tksenseiposted 7 years ago in reply to this

      There is absolutely no doubt, whether you recognize it or not. Just like you are dependent upon China and therefore in a position of subservience.

  14. Bovine Currency profile image60
    Bovine Currencyposted 7 years ago

    It must be a lonely place to be, holding all this wisdom to yourself, seeing as how the rest of the world just wouldn't understand.

  15. Bovine Currency profile image60
    Bovine Currencyposted 7 years ago

    awwwww, I was starting to enjoy that.

    Oh well...

    Till next time.

  16. kirstenblog profile image78
    kirstenblogposted 7 years ago

    I hope I am not intruding, this conversation has been fun to read smile

    As for what america has offered the world, well there is more then guns and American customers (custom) We also have offered the world Mc Donalds and other fine fast foods, not to mention an industry of cool that has seen the rise of the tween. Global American imports like fast food and cool trendy ways to waste money are loved by the rest of the world, right? hmm

    Back the the original question, I don't know what Pakistans deal is, do they have nukes? That would make em dangerous enough to pamper.

    As for China, well they own Americas debt, they have the upper hand now. Growing up I was taught that being in debt to someone means they own a piece of you, owe money to the bank and they kinda own you. Think about the old company store, workers had to borrow against their earnings to buy the tools they needed to do the job as well as the food and other goods they needed to survive, workers were nothing more then slaves to the company store. I believe there was a song with the line "I owe my soul to the company store". Personally I have never taken out a loan or gotten a credit card, the only money I have ever owed anyone was to close friends who were more like family then my real family, and they usually told me to forget about it or offered some easy to way to pay em back.

    1. Paraglider profile image88
      Paragliderposted 7 years ago in reply to this

      Sixteen tons and what do you get? /Another year older and deeper in debt. /St Peter don't you call me cause I can't go /I owe my soul to the Company Store.

  17. Paraglider profile image88
    Paragliderposted 7 years ago

    However, America is in a position to negotiate with China. Their strong (though very negative) card is the promise not to go belly up without paying back some of the debt. They have the power to say be nice to me or I'll go bankrupt on you!

    1. kirstenblog profile image78
      kirstenblogposted 7 years ago in reply to this

      lollollollollollol Good point!
      To bad that didn't work between the banks and the sub-prime mortgages. Be nice to SP Mortgagers or else the whole thing will collapse sad

    2. VENUGOPAL SIVAGNA profile image61
      VENUGOPAL SIVAGNAposted 7 years ago in reply to this

      Because of the economic weakness, America will never succumb to China. If that is so, here in Pakistan, there is nothing called economy. Its whole ruling apparatus is hanging on American and other muslim countries' financial help. It never gets any loan from others... only "aid".  In that position, it bargains with America, China and the terrorists. They are already bankrupt but that country is pulling on. Why not America? Its economy is not bad as others imagine. Even now, it is the strongest.

    3. Bovine Currency profile image60
      Bovine Currencyposted 7 years ago in reply to this

      Valid point.  However, this imposes the necessary question, will the US be able to pay such a debt.  Whether China and the US go to war it may not be a case of economic relations between those two but necessary due to other conflicts of interest.  If the US is going bankrupt anyway... the are more significant causes that could lead to war.

  18. tksensei profile image59
    tksenseiposted 7 years ago

    It's unfortunate that the 98lbs. weaking so often feels that if the big strong guy who has been protecting him for so long were to fall and break his leg that would make the weakling stronger.

    Doesn't work that way.

    1. Bovine Currency profile image60
      Bovine Currencyposted 7 years ago in reply to this

      The big brother card...again.  Carry on...

  19. Bovine Currency profile image60
    Bovine Currencyposted 7 years ago

    I cannot dream up a worse case scenario than America continuing its reign.

    1. tksensei profile image59
      tksenseiposted 7 years ago in reply to this

      As I was saying...



      1. Bovine Currency profile image60
        Bovine Currencyposted 7 years ago in reply to this

        ???

  20. Bovine Currency profile image60
    Bovine Currencyposted 7 years ago

    A false economy will only last so long...

    1. profile image60
      C.J. Wrightposted 7 years ago in reply to this

      Thats true. America isn't the only one out there thats been playing fast and loose.

  21. Bovine Currency profile image60
    Bovine Currencyposted 7 years ago

    It is the Prime example.

    1. profile image60
      C.J. Wrightposted 7 years ago in reply to this

      A prime example of a country that doesn't want to deal with it....

  22. tksensei profile image59
    tksenseiposted 7 years ago

    It is highly irresponsible, and quite offensive, to misuse the word "slave" to exaggerate a political position.

    1. Bovine Currency profile image60
      Bovine Currencyposted 7 years ago in reply to this

      It seems you are on your own there tk.

      1. tksensei profile image59
        tksenseiposted 7 years ago in reply to this

        If you want to belittle the memory of all those who have suffered (or are suffering) under real slavery in order to make some little political point, that's on you.

        1. Bovine Currency profile image60
          Bovine Currencyposted 7 years ago in reply to this

          I choose not to ignore the slaves of now.

        2. rhamson profile image77
          rhamsonposted 7 years ago in reply to this

          The bigger question is what are you doing about making sure you understand it and how you contribute to it.

          You really need a reality check. Have you ever been overseas and seen what is going on?  Do you just turn away from the newspapers and television stories when this stuff is presented to you?

          I said it before and I will say it again, it really is a TK world for you isn't it?

          1. tksensei profile image59
            tksenseiposted 7 years ago in reply to this

            Wow. You are really going that route? The "have you ever been overseas? Are you as worldly and enlightened as me?" route? That's embarrassing for you. Come on.

            1. rhamson profile image77
              rhamsonposted 7 years ago in reply to this

              I guess the answer is no and yes an eyeball on the situation gives you a better perspective than the conjecture you draw from.  Sorry you cannot come along the same route, not my fault.

              1. tksensei profile image59
                tksenseiposted 7 years ago in reply to this

                The answer is 'yes,' and did you expect such a silly, presumptuous and arrogant attitude to aggrandize yourself in some way? Why does everyone who has ever stepped outside their village assume they are Marco-freakin-Polo?

                1. rhamson profile image77
                  rhamsonposted 7 years ago in reply to this

                  Well the only thing I can assume from your response is the trip was not very informative.  Your inference that it is not neccessary to visit a place to get a real perspective of the situation says it all.  Sorry, it really is a TK world for you isn't it?

                  1. tksensei profile image59
                    tksenseiposted 7 years ago in reply to this

                    I'm not talking about "trips," and I don't think looking out the window of a tour bus and filing it in with prejudiced political views adds any kind of legitimacy.

  23. Bovine Currency profile image60
    Bovine Currencyposted 7 years ago

    still....

  24. Bovine Currency profile image60
    Bovine Currencyposted 7 years ago

    We are all laughing

  25. profile image0
    Denno66posted 7 years ago

    Huge diapers for China, I'm afraid to say......

    1. rhamson profile image77
      rhamsonposted 7 years ago in reply to this

      Why not? They make them too.

  26. VENUGOPAL SIVAGNA profile image61
    VENUGOPAL SIVAGNAposted 7 years ago

    The US is not invading Pakistan, not because it is a democracy.
    If America is sincere about democracy, it should advocate India, a perfect democracy for over 60 years. But American eyes are somewhere else. American support for terrorist Pakistan has created more trouble than good in this region.

    Its strategic geographical position helps Pakistan. It lies just south of the former Soviet Union's borders. It separates the oil-rich middle-east from South Asia. With a shaky political apparatus, Pakistan serves American interests! Since 1947, Pakistan has never seen a democratic government. Even if there is one, the President and Prime Minister will always be on the fear of what the army will do next, and when will the army arrest them and take over.

    America thinks that with Israel on the west and Pakistan on the east, it can control the oil regions. It has failed to take note of the fact that there are people in those areas, who have their own aspirations and dreams.

    When the buyer has some plans, why not the sellers (of oil)?

    1. tksensei profile image59
      tksenseiposted 7 years ago in reply to this

      "Perfect" you say?

      1. AdsenseStrategies profile image73
        AdsenseStrategiesposted 7 years ago in reply to this

        No bias there, is there

    2. AdsenseStrategies profile image73
      AdsenseStrategiesposted 7 years ago in reply to this

      Why would America advocate a sixty-year old model when it has had a model that has lasted since 1776 - and Britain the makings of a model since the Middle-Ages... Besides, in all of these examples (America, Britain, India), there is still poverty and deprivation, (in India on a horrific scale) so what good is democracy if you can't feed your kids

      1. tksensei profile image59
        tksenseiposted 7 years ago in reply to this

        Well, 1787.

  27. waynet profile image49
    waynetposted 7 years ago

    Well, that would be a lot of pampers to pamper them with, maybe some outside investors could donate some pampers to these over populated countries!!

 
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