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The banality of secularism

  1. A.Villarasa profile image80
    A.Villarasaposted 24 months ago

    Unhappily,  secularism has continued its unabated march to fog  the once pristine American landscape of  perspicacious clarity afforded by spiritual belief.

    Secularists of all stripes and color  has become quite audacious to the point of  insolence in propagating their insouciant disregard for  truth... consequential in some quarters, but not in most where it matters, that is....in the minds of folks whose faith, leads to hope that love would conquer all.

    1. 0
      Deborah Sextonposted 24 months ago in reply to this

      I agree that those who don’t believe in God
      show we who do, a lot of disrespect that verges on harassment, and I think they always have. It’s just that the internet, and forums gives them a place to be seen, so they can ridicule us. The fact that they may influence our young people is scary.
      That’s why parents have to seek the truth of God, and teach their children at home, not only in scripture, but by examples of the way they live there lives.

      The real problem comes in the parents who think there is nothing more they can learn of God, and remain in, and teach, doctrine of man, not of God

      1. A.Villarasa profile image80
        A.Villarasaposted 24 months ago in reply to this

        Therein lies the rub... parents who are not willing to, either because of their absence from or indifference,to the lives of their children, take the cudgels to shape their spiritual lives. Oh but I forget, they themselves have no spiritual lives because they have been infected by this vapid virus called secularism i.e. "the doctrine of man" as you so succinctly stated.

        The denial of the truth of the duality (material and spiritual) of human existence, is what secularism is all about. The truth that  country singer Dolly Parton, know something about when she composed and sang the song titled "Jesus and Gravity". In the song, she says that Jesus lifts her spirits (spirituality) to heights she did not know existed, and gravity pulls her down back to earth to keep her grounded. God and Gravity, pretty much sounds what the renowned physicist, Stephen Hawking, was referring to when he said: if there ever is a god, he is an impersonal one... and that god is Gravity.

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          Deborah Sextonposted 24 months ago in reply to this

          Gravity is indeed a force from God, but it's not God.
          Job 26:7
          He stretcheth out the north over the empty place, and hangeth the earth upon nothing.

          1. Paul Wingert profile image80
            Paul Wingertposted 24 months ago in reply to this

            Now you're a physicist? You actually know what gravity is! You must be the only person in the world that knows exactly what it is. A force from God! Who would of known. Now go type it up, get it peer reviewed and go collect your Nobel Prize!
            As for Job 26:7, those old goat herders that never heard of an atom, though the earth was flat, and had no idea where the sun went every evening would put Stephan Hawking to shame!

            1. A.Villarasa profile image80
              A.Villarasaposted 24 months ago in reply to this

              If there ever was a whack job in this forum, it is the above statement... pure snarky condenscension, and nothing else.

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              Deborah Sextonposted 24 months ago in reply to this

              As far as the Sun, today we say the Sun is rising, and setting, even though the earth, not the sun, is doing the moving. In the Old Testament, Job 26:7 explains that the earth is suspended in space, the obvious comparison being with the spherical sun and moon.

              Although I took physics, no I'm not a physicist, but I know God is not gravity, and I also KNOW he created the force

              The Hebrews didn't think the Earth was flat, you are thinking of the Gentiles, Greece, India, China, America.
              A spherical Earth appeared in the Greek philosophy of Pythagoras and Aristotle believed the Earth was round

              The Jewish bible wrote about the Earth being a circle, which in their mind meant round, and they knew the skies circled us

              Isaiah 40:22
              It is he that sitteth upon the circle of the earth, and the inhabitants thereof are as grasshoppers; that stretcheth out the heavens as a curtain, and spreadeth them out as a tent to dwell in:
              The Biblical Hebrew word for “circle” chuwg can also mean “round” or “sphere.”


              If you look up circle it says:
              circle |ˈsəːk(ə)l|
              noun
              1 a round figure whose boundary  (the circumference) consists of ....

              They that knew God, also knew the earth was round

              Many people say because they speak of "the four corners of the Earth", that those in the bible thought the Earth was square

              The word translated “corners,” as in the phrase above, is the Hebrew word, KANAPH. Kanaph is translated in a variety of ways. However, it generally means extremity.

              It is translated “borders” in Numbers 15:38. In Ezekiel 7:2 it is translated “four corners” and again in Isaiah 11:12 “four corners.” Job 37:3 and 38:13 as “ends.”


              But they meant the same thing that we mean today. which is the divisions known as "quadrants"
              If you don't know what quadrant means today, it is one of four quarters of a circle. Like on a map, it would be, East, West, North, South

            3. 0
              Deborah Sextonposted 23 months ago in reply to this

              __________________________
              And this non-believer is just the same, he'd never met me before but was very rude

          2. A.Villarasa profile image80
            A.Villarasaposted 24 months ago in reply to this

            Modern secularism has branched into 2 camps....the soft and hard secularists. Soft  secularists basically gives religionists the benefit of the doubt, and although they are mightily skeptical of religious beliefs, they are still tolerant. The hard core secularists on the other hand considers faith based beliefs as inherently unwarranted by neither reason nor experience, thus illegitimate.

            Most of the secularists that are now pushing hard for their agenda belongs to the second group.... Rabid, intolerant, and  specious to the point of radical delusive ness.

            1. wilderness profile image95
              wildernessposted 24 months ago in reply to this

              Of course faith based beliefs are unwarranted by reason - it is a part of the definition.

              Experience, though...a great deal of experience points to a god(s)...but only if there is no concerted effort to find other possibilities.  Reason has failed, then, and the default is somehow a god rather than coincidence, gravity or something else.  Legitimate ONLY for the believer, which is after all also a part of the definition.

              1. A.Villarasa profile image80
                A.Villarasaposted 23 months ago in reply to this

                Coincidence.....now that is a word that I would not ever use or mention when discussing cosmological and human existence. It is certainly not a word that I would use in the same sentence that has the word God in it. Now, gravity... we should ask Stephen Hawking about that one.

                As I mentioned in my answer to one of your post on this
                forum, faith based beliefs come from perceptive conceptualization/intellectualization aka imagination  thus reality based and tethered on pure reason.

                1. wilderness profile image95
                  wildernessposted 23 months ago in reply to this

                  I understand that "coincidence" is an ugly word to the believer; it strongly negates most of the "proof" of a god.  Nevertheless, most of our existence, both the past and the present, happens by coincidence or chance.

                  "conceptualization/intellectualization aka imagination" equates with reality and reason?  I want some of what you've been smoking!

                  Imagination does not give rise to reality OR reason - simply stringing big words together in the hopes that no one will understand them doesn't work well in a community of writers.

                  1. A.Villarasa profile image80
                    A.Villarasaposted 23 months ago in reply to this

                    I was just wondering what your children would say or feel if they hear it from you that their appearance on earth was the result of a chance, random, coincidental, happenstance event of two humans coupling for no other reason than to satisfy their coincidental (however carnal) desire to have sex.

                    Sex, now that is one word that evokes coincidentality to its core. Say that to the birds my friend, and perhaps they will listen to you with such  perceptive  conceptualization/intellectualization  that they might think you are the most rational person In the whole wide world.

                  2. A.Villarasa profile image80
                    A.Villarasaposted 23 months ago in reply to this

                    Almost all of the discoveries,(scientific/philosophic or combination thereof) and subsequent  humanistic distinctions thus advancement of Homo Sapiens came initially from perceptive conceptualization of ideas, that  given enough intellectualization time  resulted in  physical realities that now pockmark our societal landscape. So yes absolutely, imagination  leads to reality, more often than not, and reason/knowledge, takes a back  seat.

                  3. A.Villarasa profile image80
                    A.Villarasaposted 23 months ago in reply to this

                    Your understanding/interpretation  of the word "imagination" is so restrictive as to be useless in this conversation.

                    FYI, Webster defines imagination, not solely in the context of fancy/fantasy that you seemed to be stuck on, but more generally and importantly in the context of  being able to form a mental image of something not present to the senses or not previously known or experienced, thus harking back to such synonyms as creativity,, inventiveness, innovative, original.

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        Deborah Sextonposted 24 months ago in reply to this

        That should say "The way they live their lives" not "There lives"

        1. GA Anderson profile image87
          GA Andersonposted 24 months ago in reply to this

          OMG! The Grammar Nazi has resurfaced.

          https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N4vf8N6GpdM

          GA

          1. 0
            Deborah Sextonposted 24 months ago in reply to this

            I was correcting myself, thank you

      3. janesix profile image60
        janesixposted 24 months ago in reply to this

        Should we go back to the Dark Ages?

        1. Paul Wingert profile image80
          Paul Wingertposted 24 months ago in reply to this

          If it was up these religious whack jobs, we'd be already there!

        2. A.Villarasa profile image80
          A.Villarasaposted 24 months ago in reply to this

          There is this notion,  propagated by hard-core secularists, that secularism is a movement towards modernization. This is, to say the least, a fundamental misreading of the history of western civilization, because western civilization woul not have progressed much,  to where it is now, without the anchoring benefit of religious beliefs and ideals......beliefs and ideals that secularism would  have thrown asunder  in an instant, if it  existed and had its way during, what you call "the dark ages".

          1. jonnycomelately profile image86
            jonnycomelatelyposted 23 months ago in reply to this

            My personal view of religion is that it's an outward show of doubt, bolstering an equally deep sense of guilt and shame, brought about by listening to too many hard and fast evangelists.

            Without such guilt and shame, the churches would have nothing with which to dispel the doubt.  Nothing with which to raise their power over the activities of their "flock."

            Real spirituality needs nothing of outward religion.  It lives inwardly, amidst total personal honesty.

            1. A.Villarasa profile image80
              A.Villarasaposted 23 months ago in reply to this

              One does not need to be religious to have a spiritual sensibility/temerity.  Most religions do anchor their ideas and ideals, on spirituality, something that some folks just don't believe in or  any need for, in their daily lives. To which I say, what a pity, because one important source of enriching our lives is through the perception and conceptualization, that human existence, is not entirely based on what are physically inferred by our five physical senses.

              1. Kathryn L Hill profile image85
                Kathryn L Hillposted 23 months ago in reply to this

                Yes, thats it.

              2. 0
                Deborah Sextonposted 23 months ago in reply to this

                _____________________________________
                One can be spiritual without going to church, but every spiritual person believes certain things, certain ways, or do you just mean you are without the bible?

                1. Kathryn L Hill profile image85
                  Kathryn L Hillposted 23 months ago in reply to this

                  Using the sixth sense of perception allows you to peer into the world beyond the senses and feel that the power of your being is the power behind all. In other words, ESP puts you in touch with God directly.
                  ...according to my way of understanding spirituality.

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                    Deborah Sextonposted 23 months ago in reply to this

                    __________________________
                    Yes, I have experienced clairvoyance, clairaudience, Clairsentience , knowing, MS, telepathy, OBEs

                2. A.Villarasa profile image80
                  A.Villarasaposted 23 months ago in reply to this

                  The only part of the Bible (New Testament) that I am very familiar with and have some working knowledge of what it contains is JC's Sermon on the Mount, which to my mind basically is  what Christianity is all about sans the trappings of rituals, indulgencies, and mythologies.

        3. 0
          Deborah Sextonposted 23 months ago in reply to this

          _______________________
          Well, I don't know about we, but I think you should

    2. wilderness profile image95
      wildernessposted 24 months ago in reply to this

      How do you know that your spiritual belief is perspicacious?  Given that belief has no foundation outside of feelings and wants, how do you know that it is correct and real?  That it is truth?

      For that is the "fog" that secularism has dispelled; the quaint notion that belief is in fact truth and has no need for any connection to reality.  That individual perspective is, in fact, real despite being different for each person.

      1. 0
        Deborah Sextonposted 24 months ago in reply to this

        You're wrong in everything you've said
        Knowing God goes much deeper than believing
        Believing is a Christian concept, not a Jewish one

        1. wilderness profile image95
          wildernessposted 24 months ago in reply to this

          And how do you "know" a god that likely isn't there?  That has never spoken, never acted and exists only in your imagination?  How do you "know"?

          1. 0
            Deborah Sextonposted 23 months ago in reply to this

            ________________________
            What a rude remark this is, and you had just met me
            Yet, if I think it's rude, and say so, you accuse me of having a chip
            Well, it was rude of you anyway

          2. 0
            Deborah Sextonposted 23 months ago in reply to this

            ____________________________
            No amount of proving would convince you, because you don't want to believe, and I told you that before. You're asking so that you can ridicule
            No one would want to prove anything to a person with your attitude

        2. mishpat profile image61
          mishpatposted 24 months ago in reply to this

          Could you expand on the third part here?

          1. 0
            Deborah Sextonposted 24 months ago in reply to this

            Sorry I took so long, but my family has been in town to spend the holidays with me, and I've been busy
            This is not to offend anyone, but because you asked
            As I said, believing is a Christian concept, not a Jewish one
            Take for example, what Christians "believe" about the Messiah

            THE BIBLE'S JEWISH MESSIANIC CRITERIA are verifiable through observation or experience rather than belief, theory, or pure logic: "Faith" is irrelevant to the Jewish concept of the Messiah, because an individual either fulfills these prophetic criteria or he doesn't. Christianity requires faith that Jesus is their "messiah" precisely because he didn't fulfill any of the Jewish messianic criteria. Christianity's concept of faith in Jesus is therefore a substitute for this defect. It is important to note that the fulfillment of each of the six Jewish messianic criteria is verifiable by everyone, and therefore no faith is required to determine the identity of the Jewish Messiah. For example:

            The entire world will be able to observe that:
            1 The Temple has been rebuilt,
            2 The Jewish people have returned to Israel,
            3 The entire world believes in God,
            4 The world is at peace.



            All of which the true Messiah's will cause to happen

            Virtually none of the Christian messianic "proofs" are empirically verifiable, they are "believed" to be true, but when the Jewish Messiah comes, we won't have to just "believe" it's him, because when he does arrive, the above list of things, we will all see, and know.
            Until all these are fulfilled by one person, than he's not "The" Jewish Messiah

            1. mishpat profile image61
              mishpatposted 23 months ago in reply to this

              Couple things before we address this subject in earnest, assuming you are open to discussion.

              1) Having read some of your comments, I see you honesty so doubt you will offend me with straightforward answers.  I also appreciate you candor with the trolls.

              2) What Hebrew text do you use?  I use the KJV.

              3) What is the teaching in "Shule" today regarding the person of Jesus.

              I lost my longtime Jewish friend and friendly adversary some years back so I need a catch up on things.

              And I think we understand that both our Holidays will crimp timely replies.

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                Deborah Sextonposted 23 months ago in reply to this

                ______________________________
                Nice to meet you, Mishpat
                When I first saw your name, I thought (hoped) you were Jewish
                I wasn’t sure what you meant, but I have these bibles and extra reading materials, I study them, and interpret what it says to a group twice a month

                Tanakh (Hebrew Version)
                Lexicon
                BHK bible (Hebrew Version)
                The Orthodox Jewish Bible
                The Ancient Hebrew Lexicon of the Bible
                Mikraot Gedolot 

                Extra reading
                Talmud
                Masoretic Text
                Septuagint, Vulgate
                English Bible-KJV

                Happy holidays, Christmas, and Chanukkah
                I am truly sorry about your friend

                Do you really want a Jewish person to speak about Yahshua,(Jesus) or what is taught in my religion about him?
                I’m Hasidic

                1. mishpat profile image61
                  mishpatposted 23 months ago in reply to this

                  Yes, I would like to know how Jesus is perceived in the orthodox community today, both Hasidic and Sephardic.  I have not interest in the Kabbalists, reform, conservative or any other mystical or "opinion-driven" sect of Judaism which changes from situation to situation, even though they claim orthodoxy.

                  We have both seen the replies of the humanist, the charlatans, the mean spirited and the foolish ones that claim Christianity but do not believe the Book, so I don't think your reply will be that shocking.  I would expect, from your writings, to see honest, straightforward comments not retorts generated to demand a like response, though.  My only caution for you would be to be aware of the fringe readers, the "censor-police," the official ones and the self-appointed.

                  1. 0
                    Deborah Sextonposted 23 months ago in reply to this

                    I don't mean to offend your beliefs, and I'm sorry but no Orthodox Jew believes Jesus is the promised Messiah. If they do, they've become a Christian, that sect call themselves Messianic Jews
                    The Jewish Messiah is yet to come

        3. jonnycomelately profile image86
          jonnycomelatelyposted 23 months ago in reply to this

          "Believing" and "knowing that you are right," and that others are wrong, is a very self-righteous and common christian concept.

          You, like so many others, Deborah, live in a cloud of make-believe.  This is one of the major causes of strife in the world.... and it comes because you have cocooned yourself in that cloud, excluded all other possibilities.  It gives you a nice, warm, cosy, safe feeling that no one else, nothing, can shake you from the perch.

          I am sure you will find yourself talked about, somewhere in that New Testament.   Look for it, like you are looking for a mirror.  You will see yourself talked about somewhere in one of the "parables," or in one of the letters that Paul of Tarsus wrote to one of the misguided churches of that day.   How do I know this?  Because human nature has not changed much down through the ages.

          1. 0
            Deborah Sextonposted 23 months ago in reply to this

            __________________________
            Really? well no one can say why I believe in God, that means you either
            So yes, when people tell me why I believe something, or say my beliefs are wrong, and even why I believe in God, I will tell them that they are wrong, you too
            How can telling others they are wrong about how, why, and what you believe, be self righteous? You don't make sense here

            Like you said, those are your views, they aren't mine

            1. jonnycomelately profile image86
              jonnycomelatelyposted 23 months ago in reply to this

              Since you took it upon yourself to declare that a person was wrong......

              Having a christian belief does not mean you have the monopoly on what is true.

              Simple as that.

              1. 0
                Deborah Sextonposted 23 months ago in reply to this

                _______________________
                Let me get this straight, you're saying I can't say someone is wrong about me..but you can say I'm just wrong?

                Sorry, but I have the monopoly on what is true for me..and when someone tells me what, and why I believe, I have the RIGHT to say they are wrong
                I do not have a Christian belief..I'm Jewish, and if you had actually taken the time to read what we've all said, you'd know that.
                You have got to live your life, and I..mine, but please read before commenting

                1. jonnycomelately profile image86
                  jonnycomelatelyposted 23 months ago in reply to this

                  Pardon me belabouring the point, but you have a right to say in your opinion they are wrong.

                  The same as I have a right to say, as a person with a-theist leanings, that in my opinion religiosity has nothing to do with divine truth - it's more of a human concoction than anything else.

                  Not saying that as an edict, to be accepted as fact by everyone else.   In my opinion, there is room in this world for secularism, religion, spirituality, any belief system you like, provided it does not detract from the freedom of others; and provided it does not break reasonably set up laws which are there to protect society from extremists.

                  1. 0
                    Deborah Sextonposted 23 months ago in reply to this

                    ___________________________
                    If they are wrong about me, I have a right to say they are wrong, period,
                    When someone is wrong, they are wrong, and it is not just an opinion.

                    If I say I am Jewish, and someone says I am Christian, it is wrong, and it's not just an opinion, it's fact
                    No need to reply..I don't want to know
                    Who has tried to change anyone's opinion?, or beliefs? certainly not me, I was asked for my answers
                    I gave them

              2. 0
                Deborah Sextonposted 23 months ago in reply to this

                ___________________________
                And yet you are declaring me wrong about something that doesn't even concern you, and it's okay. Double-standards, one for you, and one for me
                Well, I like myself more than you smile

      2. A.Villarasa profile image80
        A.Villarasaposted 24 months ago in reply to this

        If one has faith, then one will naturally lead to a keen understanding that human existence is NOT only  physical, but spiritual as well.  The sense of awe and wonder that one gets, contemplating the vastness of the cosmos and man's infinitissimally small presence in it,  is a spiritual experience worth anyone's perspective, irregardless of whether one believes in the existence of God.

        There are of course so many other  spiritual events  one could and should
        experience,  the propensity for which, depends a lot on whether, one is open to the idea of  the non-physical aspect of existence. An idea that a lot of folks have lost on their way to a purely physical and secular interpretation of reality.

        1. wilderness profile image95
          wildernessposted 24 months ago in reply to this

          And your self-described "keen understanding" tells you this.

          Good.

          Now prove it.  Prove there is a spiritual existence.

          1. A.Villarasa profile image80
            A.Villarasaposted 24 months ago in reply to this

            Spiritual existence and experience, to the extent that it exists in reality can not be proven by empirical evidence, if that is what you are looking or asking for.

            Spiritual experiences, are by nature subjective, and as such, are interpreted solely from the perspective of whether those expeririences have value beyond the usual manner with which these  are typically measured, not by empirical means and expectations but by  perpetual  and conceptual introspection.

            1. wilderness profile image95
              wildernessposted 24 months ago in reply to this

              Agreed.  But that doesn't mean there is a spiritual "world" or "existence".  Only that the human mind is capable of imagination.

              Nor does human spirituality require a god somewhere or even the belief in a god.  Spirituality is a completely human thing, just as you say, and does not originate anywhere outside of us.

              1. A.Villarasa profile image80
                A.Villarasaposted 24 months ago in reply to this

                And it is this imagination that separates us from the merely animal to the serenely and securely human.

                Imagination gives us wings, where none exist.... even our good friend Albert Einstein values imagination, more than knowledge.

                Imagining eternal possibilities might be an exercise in futility for you, but even in the realm of the purely physical, which you are so enamored of, imagination could mean the difference between heaven and earth.

                1. wilderness profile image95
                  wildernessposted 24 months ago in reply to this

                  No it's not - imagination does not separate us from a tree, let alone all other animals.  Ever watch a kitten play?  Bounce around with a ball, pretending it is an animal about to escape? 

                  Reason - the ability to reason correctly - does.  Without that ability a man is no better than the kitten playing with a ball of yarn, and is in fact a far lesser creature than most others.

                  No, imagination cannot mean the difference between heaven and earth, not unless you wish to live your life out in a drug stupor.  Reason, though, can make a much better life for man, and has.  The pretend world you think so highly of is still just that - a pretend world - but reason has done a great deal for man, has changed the species from just another animal among thousands to what we have become today.

                  1. A.Villarasa profile image80
                    A.Villarasaposted 23 months ago in reply to this

                    To infer that the  imagination involved  in a kitten playing with a ball "pretending that it is an animal about to escape" is akin to the imagination of a child playing playing a video game, pretending that  he is a super-hero about to escape the clutches of a malevolent monster, is just about the most insipidly inane use of the English language.

                    Now reason could be as treasonous as that  ball of yarn or malevolent monster, depending upon which of these two activities involve more than just pretending, and actually imagining. For it is not in pretending, but in imagining that faith anchored on ideas and ideals, that reason becomes reality.

                  2. A.Villarasa profile image80
                    A.Villarasaposted 23 months ago in reply to this

                    Drug induced stupor is what you would think of if the person has lost all sense of self- respect and inducement. Heaven and earth are metaphors for inducements and encroachments respectively when life becomes, as they say, inchoate,

                    Imagination brings us back to where we could live life purposely, and sensibly. Certainly no amount of drugs could make those happen.

          2. KFlippin profile image61
            KFlippinposted 23 months ago in reply to this

            Prove there is not.

    3. psycheskinner profile image81
      psycheskinnerposted 24 months ago in reply to this

      As opposed to the excitement of oppressing people on the basis of religion?

      History and a look at non-secular nations suggest religious regimes are not based on "love" but oppression.

      1. lone77star profile image91
        lone77starposted 23 months ago in reply to this

        Your wording betrays your prejudice. "A look at non-secular nations suggest[s] religious regimes are not based on 'love' but oppression." How can a look at non-secular nations tell you such a thing?

        And you're not looking carefully enough at history. Oppression occurs from ego, not religion or religious dogma. Religion or socio-economic philosophy or other ideas are merely symptoms of a much more deeply rooted problem -- the personal attitude of self as separate from others and the idea of self-concern.

        The love of which AV spoke is involved with the opposite to Ego. Ego separates; Love brings us together.

    4. oceansnsunsets profile image88
      oceansnsunsetsposted 23 months ago in reply to this

      I observe a world where all truth is under fire more and more.  It doesn't seem as specific as I once would have thought, meaning perhaps that it targets the true good, truths of God and faith, etc. 

      It seems to me that much of truth of almost any subject, is also a target.  Like it is opposite day, lol.  This alarms me, because most humans don't usually want to go after untruths, especially with no benefit to them, and possible hurt to them or others.  So is it secularism?  Sure it could be part of that.  Interesting to notice, and noticeable enough for all of us to ask what genuinely explains it, and not just what we would prefer to explain it.

  2. lone77star profile image91
    lone77starposted 23 months ago

    Beautiful OP, AV.

    I think the evil fits both sides of the fence, though.

    Ego is the culprit, always. This is the meaning of ego that includes self-concern, selfishness, separateness from others, self-entitlement, self-righteousness and the like. This is the opposite of Love.

    True Love has no self-concern and never keeps score. True Love is unconditionally generous and finds it effortless to turn the other cheek and to forgive.

    There are those who are "religious" but follow Ego instead of Love (God) or Christ, just as the Pharisees did.

    The psychopathic elite, through their myriad corporations have been slowly turning the screw of Orwellian Newspeak, making our most precious ideals weak or inverted. War becomes "peacekeeping." Discrimination has changed from intelligent selection of the good, to unintelligent judgment of others as unworthy.

    Critical thinking has been crippled. I've even found myself being suborned by their soporific effects. Only in the last 3 years have I woken to see just how badly they have corrupted the world, murdering 3,000 Americans on 9/11 and then tricking the world into believing that 19 Muslims did it. They own the Corporate Party news media, so very few ever find out the truth of their crimes.

    And many self-proclaimed intellectual giants here on Hub Pages can't think straight enough to understand the simple facts. One such giant had the temerity to imply that solid steel could ever offer zero resistance to collapse. The arrogance is so thick with them, they could not participate in a coherent debate. Their know-it-all attitude has blinded them even to understanding the statements of others. They live in their own shell of a world, insulated from having to deal with the viewpoints of others. As Christ said, the First (egoist) shall be last; and the Last (humble and loving) shall be first.

    I wouldn't be surprised if the psychopathic elite (Rothschilds, Rockefellers and their ilk) were responsible for the Fundamentalist revival in the early 20th century -- fanning the flames of illogical religiosity to drive a wedge between the spiritual and the secularists.

    One Rockefeller bragged about their family funding Women's Liberation -- not to liberate women, but to destroy the family by making children more dependent upon the State. They also doubled their income through their private Federal Reserve bank via personal income taxes. Women joining the work force accomplished two evil goals for them.

  3. Jerami profile image78
    Jeramiposted 23 months ago

    Remember, you are reading The Old Testament, not the Hebrew Tanakh. In Hebrew all those verses speak of the Messiah.
    Isaiah 52 through 53 is speaking of Israel, and not the Messiah.

    ==================

        You are correct, I am at a disadvantage in understanding the Jewish perspective in reading only the KJV.   That being said; It just seems to me that C. 53 is speaking of an individual man. "He is despised and rejected of men;  A MAN of sorrows, ...."
      From what is written, This may not be talking about the Messiah or any specific person. It sounds as if it may be speaking about any individual person who is Gods servant. "A Man of sorrows" indicates to me to be speaking of an individual ....   and  WE  hid as it were OUR faces ...  and we esteemed him not; seems to me as if the we did indicate all of Israel.

         But as you say, I'm reading the OT as it has been translated incorrectly (?) and not the Tanaka.    Maybe I'm not reading correctly what is written

    1. 0
      Deborah Sextonposted 23 months ago in reply to this

      But in the Verses I gave you, he is referring to Israel as a servant, and not as servants, though Israel contains more than one person

      Isaiah 49:3-And he said to me, “You are my servant, Israel, in whom I will be glorified.

      So though it may sound like one man in Isaiah 52 and 53, it says it is addressing Israel

      In Isaiah 51:3 if you did know Zion, you might think it is a woman
      The same is true of Jerusalem in  Isaiah 51:17..and her sons are the people in Jerusalem Isaiah 51:20..
      It is them who are the afflicted Isaiah 51:21

      Isaiah 52 and 53 continues speaking of Zion, and Jerusalem, It is poetic.
      Isaiah 53 speaks of Israel, and nations recognizing what they have done to hurt them, and how Israel was afflicted, and how all will be restored after the coming of the Jewish Messiah. In Isaiah 54 it is still speaking of them

      Jeremiah 31 is speaking of Israel, when the Jewish Messiah arrives

      I am posting what you asked, not trying to change your mind, you have to believe what you must believe

    2. oceansnsunsets profile image88
      oceansnsunsetsposted 23 months ago in reply to this

      Hello Jerami, (Edited)  Most of our Christian bibles actually do usually line up with the Hebrew, the Masoretic texts, that I have studied as different topics have come up.

      I have studied the scriptures for most of my life, and certain discussions like some of the ones I am observing have led me to dig a lot deeper into what is available.  I enjoy inductive study a lot, and not listening just to what anyone says, without seeking first what the scriptures say themselves.  There are times of course for commentary from very trusted sources, but I try to wait until all other avenues are tried, for the most part.  Cross referencing is helpful when all verses are taken in context of the whole.  I believe the whole bible gives one great picture, beginning to end.

      Several years ago I had spoken of wanting an Interlinear translation, so I could stop with all the going back and forth of opinions on texts by different people from different groups.  I mean, I wanted it straight from the best ancient texts, in a way that was verifiable. For Christmas one year, my husband did get me an interlinear translation bible which is bound into several different volumes, and I use it in my study of these topics, its wonderful.  It includes Hebrew, Aramaic, and then Greek for the NT from the most currently available texts we have.  It is relatively easy to check and see, with the right tools, if a verse is using a Hebrew word in one way or another.  So when I see a the idea expressed that the English translations got something wrong, I can see if that is true or not.    The line by line translation I have has been one of my favorite gifts ever, because anyone can say anything in books and commentaries, but no one can argue with the ancient texts, in my opinion.  So if we are honest and study those the best we can to really test what we think is true and right, and be willing to be wrong when we are, then in that lies the truth I think.   

      I have found, that people on the internet can and do say all kinds of things.  The best we can each do to be truthful to ourselves and our ideas and beliefs about the universe and its history, is to get to the core of the matters as best we can.  We are studying from the best of the ancient translations or we are not.  The undoctored, not tweaked for whatever the reasons is what I think is best to study.  Many study bibles will share where they get their texts from.   

      I have discussed these topics for years with people of all faiths and had some surprising responses, but learned all along and tested my own beliefs the hardest of all.  I don't want to believe anything for poor reasons.   So just reminding, we have available to us the ancient texts to compare and see if our own translations really have it wrong or not.  I don't think anyone has said this, so not suggesting that, but If it was some agenda on the part of the translators to push something that isn't in the text, then this can be sought out evaluated for its truthfulness.  I feel thankful for such tools, and love these discussions and topics because they are the most important in all of life I think.

  4. 0
    Deborah Sextonposted 23 months ago

    Jerami
    A person has to read the ancient Hebrew bible, before they can know what the scriptures say.
    I'm not speaking of reading the translations
    Translations such as the Masoretic texts, is incorrect, and has a lot of errors.
    Although this video is about God's true name, it also explains about the ancient Hebrew scripture, and the Language, and how the Masoretic vowel points changed the words and meaning.
    We got our Hebrew bible manuscripts in Israel, written in separate books, written before the Masoretic changes
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yOfg8R3Ngvs
    One thing though, he states that without vowel points it didn't say anything, I disagree, it said things, but it couldn't be spoken without vowel sounds..that's probably what he really meant

    1. Jerami profile image78
      Jeramiposted 23 months ago in reply to this

      I appreciate your sharing your understanding with me. I agree that we would have to read and understand the original texts to better understand the intended message.   
         But, even then Our understanding will be altered by any and all preciously held beliefs.
         There are some verses that should be understood exactly as written and some which we must know other facts in order to come to proper conclusions.
          And it seems we all discern these things differently.
          It seems that the more I learn; the less I know for a fact.
          It seems as if knowledge were a river flowing into the ocean. Depending upon when and where we drink, the water tastes differently.
          And everyone's taste buds are different.  That which is sweet for one is bitter for another depending upon when , where, and the individual.
          I think the will of God has already been written in our hearts, and the best way to know the will of god is to truly know our hearts, and keep them. Or something like that.
         
         Is it necessary to know where we came from in order to know how to be and what to become.
        I don't know.

      1. 0
        Deborah Sextonposted 23 months ago in reply to this

        ___________________________
        No Jerami I didn't have preconceived ideas that influenced how I interpreted scripture.
        See, I was in the Christian church, and I believed just the opposite of Jewish people, and their knowledge of the bible. (they know what their words mean)
        In Isaiah 52 and 53, it states who it is speaking of...which is Israel, and all of the Jewish people
        It isn't speaking of the Messiah, not the Jewish one, and not the Gentile one.

        The scripture I gave you is about the Jewish Messiah, even though you can't see it. The Hebrew scripture is written with hidden truths, along with Idioms of the day, metaphor, euphemism, and allegory. There are hidden things written, that are weaved among words, and numbers
        The English Messiah didn't do what the Jewish Messiah will do
        You asked me to show you scripture about the Jewish Messiah, I did, and you say "no that doesn't sound like it is speaking of the Messiah". But where it isn't speaking ofr the Messiah, you say it is..
        So you should believe what you want, but try to be careful what you teach, especially to the young
        The Masoretic texts, are very fallible

        Belief that a Messiah will come is different than having to believe that a certain person is the Messiah.

        1. have the correct genealogy by being
        descended from King David and
        King Solomon,

        2. be anointed King of Israel,

        3. return the Jewish People to Israel,

        4. rebuild the Temple in Jerusalem,

        5. bring peace to the world and end all war,

        6. bring knowledge of God to the world.

        If a person fails to fulfill just one, he can't be the Messiah

  5. 0
    Deborah Sextonposted 23 months ago

    http://demodisplay.yolasite.com/resources/Dark%20Humor%20Crayon.jpg

    Some lies are obvious.
    What if the mother crayon was color blind?!

  6. Kathryn L Hill profile image85
    Kathryn L Hillposted 23 months ago

    Dear A.Villarasa:  I also valued the <"the once pristine American landscape of perspicacious clarity afforded by spiritual belief.">

    Thank you for providing this opportunity to discuss the problem of our diminishing clarity.

    And it is a problem.
    What is the solution, do you think?

    1. A.Villarasa profile image80
      A.Villarasaposted 23 months ago in reply to this

      The solution, lies not in our scars, but in our stars. And when I say scar, I mean, the residue/detritus of  Homo Sapiens' life as he has lived it on earth over the millennia....full of sound and fury, but did it signify anything more than nothing?

      The secularists/atheists in our midst would say, yes, human life is nothing more than the unrelenting  march  of Mother Nature towards the merely natural/physical/material....thus the scars of living life mostly tethered on the incidental and inconsequential because there is no higher purpose to it.

      Man's destiny, because our existence on earth is neither incidental nor inconsequential, lies in our "stars" literally and figuratively, since, as one noted astrophysicist constantly reminded his audience, man is made of stardust, thus it is in his nature to reach for and aim  from whence he came from, and in the process, unravel the mysteries of the stars and the cosmos.

      Man' s spiritual nature emanates from whence those stars came from...the creator of things that are seen and unseen.

      1. wilderness profile image95
        wildernessposted 23 months ago in reply to this

        Man also came from the dust of the earth, forever being recycled down into the fiery furnace and back up.

        Is it thus in his nature to reach for and aim from whence he came from, into the fire far below our current existence?

        1. A.Villarasa profile image80
          A.Villarasaposted 23 months ago in reply to this

          And your unrelenting nihilism continues.

          1. wilderness profile image95
            wildernessposted 23 months ago in reply to this

            Well...I DID wonder!  If we can turn stardust into a parable, why not hellfire?  Same reasoning, after all, even if it doesn't sound so noble!

  7. 0
    Deborah Sextonposted 23 months ago

    __________________________________
    Oh and before people get the wrong idea, my parents were great parents. Loving, kind, and fair (my dad was strict due to wanting to protect us).
    My parents never drank alcohol, or smoked, and though I've heard my dad two or three times, my mother never used bad words, like curse words, and they never called us names, like brat, or stupid, etc. They encouraged us. People always respected my dad, and loved my mom. They were married until death parted them, after 56 years of marriage. I've had good examples in my life

  8. 0
    Deborah Sextonposted 23 months ago

    Wilderness
    You said Quote “Testable, observable, repeatable evidence available to everyone.  That's how we learn, not by making stories or using our ignorance to come to conclusions”.
    End Quote

    The problem here is that many things occur without any foreknowledge of the events, so people don’t set up any way to capture anything. (it’s not recorded)
    We are our minds, and our flesh is what separates us, when communication does occur, it is relayed through the mind…now I know you don’t like that answer, but it’s true. People receive information in different ways, some through seeing, hearing, sensing, knowing (revelation), dreams, and visions, If it happened to you once, you would not dismiss it again. You continue to call it our imagination, but there is no way to even know we exist but through the mind. You are poo pooing something that is most important. The roll our minds play in our lives.
    I don’t think our Creator cares about the opinions of people, who don’t believe in him anyway, or rather, he doesn’t feel it is his duty to prove he exists. It is our duty to search him out

    All I have is my journals, witnesses, medical records, check stubs, and statements, etc

    1. wilderness profile image95
      wildernessposted 23 months ago in reply to this

      Sorry, but "knowing (revelation), dreams, and visions" does not result in knowledge as it is not testable.  It could be a lie, it could be hallucination, it could be pure nonsense or it could be true.  But without the ability to test it cannot be considered knowledge regardless of how badly we wish it to be true.

      "It is our duty to search him out"

      So I'm searching, but being told there is no way to gain knowledge of God.  Only through dreams and visions - methods that provide only belief without knowledge.  Something of little to no interest as we all have beliefs, wildly differing beliefs that all claim true even as they contradict another claiming the exact same thing.  It seems obvious, then, that belief ("knowing (revelation), dreams, and visions") does not give rise to knowledge.

      1. Kathryn L Hill profile image85
        Kathryn L Hillposted 23 months ago in reply to this

        God is love. If one feels love, one feels God.

        Its possible.
        ... just surmising.

        1. wilderness profile image95
          wildernessposted 23 months ago in reply to this

          Only if you define "god" as the word "love".  Otherwise an ET from another universe has nothing to do with feeling love in spite of claims (based on dreams, visions and imagination) to the contrary.

      2. A.Villarasa profile image80
        A.Villarasaposted 23 months ago in reply to this

        Really...you have been searching? That  is not my perception of you, based on the multiple times that we have debated, on HubPages, the issue of God's existence.

        Now if I'm wrong , then kindly tell me what sort of searching have you done, in the past, the present, and what kind of searching would you be doing in the future.

        1. 0
          Deborah Sextonposted 23 months ago in reply to this

          ________________________
          None, because if a person researches, they might find something that doesn't support thier BELIEFS that we are wrong
          The deepest of all secrets are those best known to all, that which most learn as small children, take for granted the rest of our lives, live with daily—and yet never manage to unravel or grasp with their cognitive mind.

          1. jonnycomelately profile image86
            jonnycomelatelyposted 23 months ago in reply to this

            Excuse me?????   "The deepest of all secrets are those best known to all, ....."

            Do I detect a contradiction in terms here?   How can a secret be a secret if it's best known to all?

            hmm

            1. Jerami profile image78
              Jeramiposted 23 months ago in reply to this

              Some of life's mysteries are mysteries simply because a simple solution is rejected early on.

              All too often the right answer is the first which just pops into our heads.   
              And when we reject this answer no matter hard we search, we can't find an answer.

              I'll use an automotive analogy.   Car won't start.  dead battery.  My dad said for me to ck the electrical ground. I told him, No, that is not it, I checked. Alternator burns out and I replace it. I'm thinking now I got it. Dad says to check the electrical ground.  I said no that ain't it.  The starter burns out and I replace it. I got it now!   Dad said check the ground, I said that ain't it I checked it.  The neutral start switch goes bad, I replace it.   Dad says check the ground.
                   I replaced every electrical component on that car.  Dad says , You have a bad ground. 
                  I went to visit dad. He looked at the ground wire to the battery, then he looked at the ground wire to the motor to firewall, it was good.  He took the voltage regulator off the firewall and there was rust under it. It wasn't getting grounded to the firewall which was grounded to the battery.  Dad took a piece of clothes hanger, wrapped it around the screw which held the regulator to the firewall and said, "Now it is grounded"  And I never had any trouble with it again.

                   In final conclusion ...  I spent a couple of years and a lot of money keeping a car running, because I rejected a simple truth in the first place when I didn't correctly understand the simplicity 0f a simple statement as truth.
                 When you find what you are looking for and throw it away because you don't recognize it; you are probably never going to find it,  unless some body picks it up and hits you with it.

              1. jonnycomelately profile image86
                jonnycomelatelyposted 23 months ago in reply to this

                Sorry, Jerami but, despite your very eloquent analogy, it simply has nothing to do with the contradiction in terms that I hinted at. ..not that I can see, anyway.

                If you were hoping that analogy would somehow lead to a conversion of someone to the christian faith, again I cannot see it.   Sure, I presume you personally are strongly of the christian faith, but the analogy does nothing for that,  nor does it  prove anything.

                1. Jerami profile image78
                  Jeramiposted 23 months ago in reply to this

                  Actually,I thought my analogy lies about half way between what what both of you were saying.

                  and as for my saving strong Christian beliefs,  that would depend upon who you ask.   Most atheist would agree with you that I do. Most Christians would argue with you, they would say I am a heretic.
                  I agree with many of your beliefs and with many of the beliefs of those you would call a fundamentalist.

                    As far as I can tell; I'm out in no mans land concerning my religious/spiritual beliefs.
                    And no, I don't want to convert anyone.   I in no way want to be a leader nor a follower.

                2. 0
                  Deborah Sextonposted 23 months ago in reply to this

                  _______________
                  He explained it exactly the way I meant it. People learn a little of something, and accept it just that way, and because of this they don't search for the deep, and true meaning. Therefore, my statement that "the deepest of all secrets are those best known to all, that which most learn as small children, take for granted the rest of our lives, and live with daily—and yet never manage to unravel or grasp with their cognitive mind", still stands, and still holds true

                  1. jonnycomelately profile image86
                    jonnycomelatelyposted 23 months ago in reply to this

                    I found just that situation when, having been brought up christian all through my childhood and teens, then "progressed" into evangelical circles, and got caught up in the fundamentalism, I had a look at Hindu and Buddhist concepts.   They helped me to see deeper truths that were said to come from Jesus, but somehow the christian teachings had distorted or twisted everything to their own way of thinking.

                    Maybe we have some common ground Deborah and Joel.

              2. 0
                JoelMcLendonposted 23 months ago in reply to this

                Exactly and great analogy
                Also some people refuse to accept anything because they have to keep backing up what they've said earlier  in other words, they choose not to see or understand because it could cause them embarrassment

                1. Jerami profile image78
                  Jeramiposted 23 months ago in reply to this

                  And also; it is a lot easier to hold onto our beliefs whatever they may be; whatever they may concern, when we don't even consider that we might be wrong.

                2. jonnycomelately profile image86
                  jonnycomelatelyposted 23 months ago in reply to this

                  How true that can be with some people of a religious persuasion.
                  Not saying "all" of course.
                  wink

            2. 0
              Deborah Sextonposted 23 months ago in reply to this

              _________________________
              No contradiction, just that you don't understand this simple concept

              1. jonnycomelately profile image86
                jonnycomelatelyposted 23 months ago in reply to this

                I must apologise to you, Deborah, for not understanding simple concepts.  I even had to look up the amazing word, "perspicacious."

                What I have seen coming from people who have strong "beliefs," is that they presume to have the upper hand in understanding anything that cannot be proven, in normal every-day experience to the satisfaction of those who are more skeptical, like myself.  Even in that word "perspicacious" there is a strong element of superiority.

                Just because you believe in a god, and maybe a life after death, and you belong to a band of people who likewise have those beliefs, does not make you an authority on morality.  It does not automatically give you the right to judge others who do not similarly believe.

                You feel, apparently, that non-believers are rude, sarcastic maybe, of you who are a believer.  This is hardly surprising, surely?  As a person with a-theist views, I do not try to deny any believer his/her right to believe, or even change from those beliefs.   Numerous times, in numerous hubs and discussions, I have put this point strongly.  You are free to have your beliefs, without my permission or without my agreement.  I am free not to have them.  I am free to live my life as I see fit, provided I don't deprive anyone else of their freedom.

                So, if you don't want to be accosted by non-believers, I suggest you begin offering love and tolerance of other views, and cease pushing your own views as paramount.  There is room in this world for each of us, given that tolerance and understanding.

                IF a god really exists, outside of the human mind, then any amount of disbelief will not negate that existence, so it really does not matter one iota whether we agree or not.

                1. 0
                  Deborah Sextonposted 23 months ago in reply to this

                  ______________________________________________
                  Perspicacious is hardly a word of superiority, it’s a simple word meaning: having a ready understanding of things.
                  Because you had to look up the word, you obviously view me as someone who thinks she is superior, but, it’s untrue, and just in your mind. If you don't know a word, don't accuse me of superiority, It's your fault, not mine.
                  I have never said I am an authority on morality, and I haven’t judged anyone, because I’m not God, so it’s not my job.
                  Your words have judged you. I see you in the words you write.
                  I have my Smicha, and I am certified to teach the Jewish scriptures, it’s what I do, and what I will continue to do, regardless if you see me as thinking I am an authority in morality, or not.
                  I am also an ordained licensed minister, and with my Smicha, and the fact that I have studied morality as scripture tells us, I do teach what it says. If that conflicts with who you are, it is between you and God, and is no one else’s fault.
                  Please don’t tell me what I feel, because you DO NOT KNOW how I feel. And if I do feel that some non-believers have been rude to me, it’s because they have been very rude at times.
                  I know I am free to  have my beliefs without your permission, this isn’t your forum. However when spiritual people are speaking, and in the middle of the comments someone keeps stating that there is no God..it breaks the flow of things.
                  The forum rules say that you can’t hijack a thread, and you have to stay on topic, yet I haven't reported anyone for this.

                  No one is trying to persuade you to be a believer, and I can’t understand why you think they have, just because we start a thread about God. Why do you read them?

                  By sharing about God, and his word, I am showing love. So this “you’re not showing love,” cry, is a cop out.
                  I am NOT a NT “turn the other cheek” person, I believe in the Jewish scriptures that say “an eye for an eye” so saying I don’t show love, doesn’t intimidate me, so stop trying.
                  Who cares whether you believe or not, I couldn’t care any less than I already do…

                  I am also a nurse and have my masters, is that wrong too?

                  1. jonnycomelately profile image86
                    jonnycomelatelyposted 23 months ago in reply to this

                    Deborah, when I wrote that post, it was a little harsh, I admit that and apologise.... since then I have read more of you from your profile and your hubs, so have much more respect for you. 

                    However,  you have said that "no one is trying to persuade you to be a believer."   You personally might not, but in many cases here in the forums believers are on that mission to convert.  They firmly believe that it's their duty to convert as many non-believers as they can.   Numerous times believers have pointed the finger at non-believers saying "you are wrong because you are breaking God's rules, therefore you are wrong and you will go to hell," or something like that.

                    Believers are stating their views as if they are universal facts, and anyone who does not hold those views is "out in the cold."   There are not many who will afford me the same tolerance and consideration as I offer those who are believers.  This is why I, and probably most other non-believers, get up in arms when I see someone making a statement which is supposed to place the believer in authority and superior to others.

                    I have been through a very long journey of searching for meaning in my life.   I also started out in general nursing, well over 50 years ago now.  I then went into medical radiography.  The awe and wonder of biology, life, the human body, as well as all the other bodies of every species, inspire me way beyond the constrictions of religious dogma and belief.  The sciences in general show me that to limit a "god" to what only we humans can conceive with our limited perception is to belittle our very existence.  The "mind" of whatever set this universe in motion can never be the petty arguments that we humans put up for serious acceptance.

                    So, please everyone, continue the discussion.   But let's keep it such that we can grow and expand our consciousness, not constrict it.

          2. wilderness profile image95
            wildernessposted 23 months ago in reply to this

            Probably why they remain eternally as a belief instead of knowledge, don't you think?

        2. wilderness profile image95
          wildernessposted 23 months ago in reply to this

          As I cannot conceive of any test that even might support the idea of a god if there is one, I ask other people how they know their god exists.

          After 40+ years of asking, not a single answer/conclusion/reason that I can verify as truth.  But I will keep asking anyway - someday perhaps a god will exhibit itself and people can tell about it.

      3. 0
        Deborah Sextonposted 23 months ago in reply to this

        ___________________
        You have no idea what "knowing" even means
        You are incorrect about the other things,, something written down one year ahead of time, which is 100% accurate, witnessed and signed is evidence. I don't care what information you reject, it's your choice, and mistake
        You don't seem to get that your opinion means nothing in my experiences

        1. wilderness profile image95
          wildernessposted 23 months ago in reply to this

          know
          nō/Submit
          verb
          1.
          be aware of through observation, inquiry, or information.
          "most people know that CFCs can damage the ozone layer"

          2.
          have developed a relationship with (someone) through meeting and spending time with them; be familiar or friendly with.
          "he knew and respected Laura"

          Nowhere there do we find reference to "belief" being equated with "know".  Imagination is not mentioned, and neither is ignorance.  Unmentioned, but very true, is that the "information" mentioned must be verifiable; otherwise Harry Potter must be true.

          "You are incorrect about the other things,, something written down one year ahead of time, which is 100% accurate, witnessed and signed is evidence."

          Probably, but evidence of what?  A lucky guess?  A prediction wide enough to encompass any possible "interpretation" (Nostradamus did this, too)?  A prediction of an event that was based on political or other observation and extrapolated to a reasonable conclusion (My sister predicted the election of Obama, and so did I...)

          1. 0
            Deborah Sextonposted 23 months ago in reply to this

            _______________________
            I said a "Knowing" not "Know"
            You realize something no one taught you, and later find it to be true

            1. wilderness profile image95
              wildernessposted 23 months ago in reply to this

              Happens all the time to everyone in the world.  We all learn things that no one taught us.

              Of course, the "true" part enters into the picture as well - your concept presented here, of "knowing" via vision or dreams, kind of says that the "true" is irrelevant to faith and desire.  That the "knowing" you present isn't "knowing" at all as there is likely no truth to know.

              1. A.Villarasa profile image80
                A.Villarasaposted 23 months ago in reply to this

                "The truth shall set you free" as the oft repeated adage says... but what is the truth? To you the truth is,  unless God actually presents Himself to you in some physical manner, then He does not exist. "Dreams and visions"  are not physical enough, I suppose in your world of total materiality....but then again, what assuage and massage  those dreams and visions but the mind...the consciousness that emanates from the biochemical reaction in the neuro-axonal structure of  the human brain... which I'm sure you would consider, very physical and material indeed. How those biochemical reactions gets translated into consciousness, might  just be the connection between the material and spiritual duality of human existence. Truth be told, I think you and other folks have totally lost that connection.

  9. 0
    Deborah Sextonposted 23 months ago

    Some never give any thought to their inward selves of mind and emotions. They usually contact them only by accident.

    There is only a small connection of the two hemispheres of the brain and that small corridor, is the corpus callosum. In this area are nerve fibers that emit electricity and chemicals for communication of these two large sections of the brain.

    There are twelve cranial nerves and the longest nerve, the tenth one extends from one side of the brain and intertwines down the spinal cord. There are areas where ganglia masses are formed which consists of a network of sympathetic and para-sympathetic nerves that control the voluntary and involuntary systems.

    The two sides work together as one, and they do it in a push, pull fashion in the same way the heart chambers do .
    Some scientist know that the left, and right sides, are opposites in this concept, others say it is untrue that left and right brain people are different.

    In a right brain person, the communication
    is greater, and we not only have left brain logic, we have right brain imagination. The left brain person generally wants an explanation for everything, but rarely accepts anything as true, unless they have witnessed it
    I personally see someone who uses both sides equally, the more whole persson

  10. 0
    Deborah Sextonposted 23 months ago

    Not everyone is supposed to see, or understand God, and his word
    According to the NT Yahshua (Jesus) spoke in parables so that those who wasn't supposed to know the secrets of  God, and heaven couldn't
    So I feel it is the same today
    (Luke 8:10 [KJV]) And he said, Unto you it is given to know the mysteries of the kingdom of God: but to others in parables; that seeing they might not see, and hearing they might not understand

    1. wilderness profile image95
      wildernessposted 23 months ago in reply to this

      Nice god!  To some he reveals himself, to others he only speaks in riddles so they cannot know him and will never visit heaven.

      1. 0
        Deborah Sextonposted 23 months ago in reply to this

        _________________
        I didn't say God said it, I said the NT did, and the NT is what they read

        Whatever the reason..
        IF, and I doubt it, the NT is right..than God would have his good reasons to withhold info from whoever he wants..people who would never turn to God anyway has no reason for his truths

        This is not something Christians believe, but...
        God made everything to reproduce by seed of it's own kind..i.e. humans..they are supposed to only have children of other humans, right?
        But lets say the fallen angels, who are only a little higher than humans..had relations with humans, and caused their offspring to be part human, and part angels..this is unacceptable to God...and he will not want them to know the deeper truths that he teaches human

        1. wilderness profile image95
          wildernessposted 23 months ago in reply to this

          Your "if" - it also says the predestination exists.  That there is no free will.  How does that fit with your beliefs?

          1. 0
            Deborah Sextonposted 23 months ago in reply to this

            _______________________
            My "If"???
            It doesn't, that's in the NT, and the NT isn't part of the Hebrew/Jewish Bible, and  I don't believe anything Paul wrote.
            Predestination is not something we teach.
            My hubs would give you a clue as to what I believe

            1. wilderness profile image95
              wildernessposted 23 months ago in reply to this

              "IF, and I doubt it, the NT is right..than God would have his good reasons to withhold info from whoever he wants"

              Yes, your If.  If it is true then god is controlling us and predestination is true.  It's not something I accept either.

              1. 0
                Deborah Sextonposted 23 months ago in reply to this

                ______________________________
                As I said, it's not my if. Predestination is not a true doctrine.
                I hope you're not saying I said it was, or that I even mentioned it, because I DIDN"T

                If you are saying this, let me know, because I'm not going to have you put words in my mouth, for about the fourth time, again. I am getting tired of it myself

                Paul taught that in the NT, and he is the only one who said it.
                You keep confusing the Hebrew Bible with the English ones

                God made man with Free Will..who said he didn't? It sure wasn't me
                I think you are afraid to confront the person who really said it, whoever that is..,  and are accusing me so you can get your point across to them, or something

                1. wilderness profile image95
                  wildernessposted 23 months ago in reply to this

                  Yes.  You said it.  Look at my post, that you replied to: the words in quotations are a copy/paste from your own post.  You said it, just as I quoted it.  Before you get too tired of "people putting things in your mouth" you might want to go back and read your own posts.  YOU made the "If" statement, no one else.

                  But you didn't say you believe in predestination, or even that God will withhold information from select people He doesn't like, and I didn't indicate that you did, either.  Only that you made an "if/then" statement, with an indication that the "if" is incorrect in your opinion.  An opinion I agree with as the inevitable conclusion from it is that predestination is true; something both you and I disagree with.

                  You really do need to pay a little more attention, brush the chip off your shoulder and make an honest effort to understand what is being said before you take offense that isn't there.

                  1. 0
                    Deborah Sextonposted 23 months ago in reply to this

                    _______________________
                    Show me where I said that predestination is real. If I said "they said it was real"..I meant the NT, not the Hebrews. Again the NT not part of the Jewish bible
                    http://hubpages.com/forum/topic/127286? … ost2691228

                    I can't always understand what you are saying because of the words you use, how you arrange the words and the way you express yourself. In your last comment, I am not understanding exactly what you are saying
                    In here I hear you are saying that I said predestination is real, and then I hear you say, we agree that it doesn't, I'm confused about what you're saying. That's why I used the ??? marks

                  2. 0
                    Deborah Sextonposted 23 months ago in reply to this

                    Give link to it, don't rely on memory.

                  3. 0
                    Deborah Sextonposted 23 months ago in reply to this

                    ________________________
                    No I did not , let me break down your reference to what I said

                    "As I said, it's not my if". (my finished thought) (you said if, and something about believers of God,  believing in predestination, so I said believing in predestination is not my if

                    Then I say
                    Predestination is not a true doctrine. ( I said it's not a true doctrine again)
                    Then I said
                    I hope you're not saying I said it was, or that I even mentioned it, because I DIDN"T"

                    So no,  I Did NOT say I believed in predestination

              2. 0
                Deborah Sextonposted 23 months ago in reply to this

                No, by withholding information, it is not God controlling you, it is just the opposite

                If you search and find it, it is because of your free will. If God wanted to control you, he would push the information down your throat, and make everyone the same

  11. Jerami profile image78
    Jeramiposted 23 months ago

    If everyone believed the same thing ..........   There would never ...
    never be a new thing of any kind.

  12. mishpat profile image61
    mishpatposted 23 months ago

    Confused (again)???

    Evolutionists, "scientists", atheists, antagonists and several others go on day after day speaking their minds, giving thei view points and generally making pointed comments regarding the comments made by Christians.  Of course, this is not proselytising because "God does not exist" and therefore there can be no conversion sought.  All these folks are trying to do is "reason with these god believers" apparently in hopes of changing their minds, which of course and again is not a "conversion."

    Next we have the agnostic (which appears to be a misunderstood term) who wants more knowledge before he or she commits in any direction to or from God.  We find the "reasoning objectivist" falls in this group, although they may deny it.

    Last, we have the supposed non-proselytising moslem and Hebrews.  They take part in discussions, speaking their positions in what must seem to them a matter-of-fact manner of conversation, apparently unaware that what they say is, in fact, a presentation of what they believe and therefore a witness to the unbelieving, by their standard.

    So, gimme a break here.  If you don't believe in God, what are you doing here, that is, other than pandering for converts.  Or are you looking for reasons to believe?

    And for those that have a belief in God, why don't you want to share, that is if you think its all that great to begin with.

    I believe God.  I believe Jesus is the Christ, that He is God.  That is a position.  Now if you disagree with me in any manner, and try to explain where I am wrong, then are you not trying to "convert" me?

    So why all the consternation about Christians on a religious site expressing a Christian belief?   I suspect its more envy than education on the part of many unbelievers.

    Yeah, I suppose I'll get a few darts and slams.  So what's new.

    1. jonnycomelately profile image86
      jonnycomelatelyposted 23 months ago in reply to this

      Because, Mishpat, I have no wish or intention of changing your beliefs, your faith, even if it were possible to do so.   
      I come on here because it is so often the christian perspective that seeks to prove that I, as a non-believer, need to change MY point of view and become a believer.  And in doing so, I am painted as a sinner, a back-slider, a person who is going to spend the remainder of eternity in some kind of hell.
      So, all the time you, as a christian believer, are not willing to allow me absolute freedom to make my own choices, without adding your rider that I "will be sorry," then I will stand here and confront you.
      Allow me my freedom, and I will allow you to state your beliefs without question.   But fair exchange.

      1. mishpat profile image61
        mishpatposted 23 months ago in reply to this

        Good Morning.  I am not sure if I ever made such comments directly to you, but I will accept you are talking in a generality, that being, your response is to all that have responded to you, which would more than likely include me at some point.  However, it is hard to express half the story.  For that reason, unless someone pushes my buttons, I try to just ask and answer questions directly.  Most times, though, the question of retribution of some sort will eventually surface and it has to be addressed.  I am not a great "fan" of hell fire and damnation as some put it, but it is part of the story of salvation.  Yet, its not a new wrinkle to the old story.   

        The bottom line is some folks ask about Hell and punishment directly and then are upset when the truth of the Bible is be told.  I have to believe that it is offensive to many because they are left with a decision of giving in to God or giving in to self.  I hold no power of life and death, punishment or reward, nor does any other believer.  We are, or should be, just messengers.

        1. jonnycomelately profile image86
          jonnycomelatelyposted 23 months ago in reply to this

          Ok, you continue believing what you like about a "God," or a "Jesus," but stop implying that because I, or anyone else who does not accept those beliefs is in someway lacking or in need of them.

          If you claim to be in receipt of unconditional Love from that god of yours, let some of the un-conditional bit flow over on to others.

          There is no "god" up there above the clouds, so settle back down on Earth --- it needs your energy and commitment.

          1. mishpat profile image61
            mishpatposted 23 months ago in reply to this

            Unconditional love is what God alone can give.  Us human folk fall short in this and several other categories.  I would try to accede to your request but that would really only be possible when talking about things other than God.  Believing as I do, I would want to share what I have, what God has given his people to offer to others.  As I said, I am not much for hellfire and brimstone messages as a standard.  But if you will, try to put yourself in my position for a moment.  You got something great and want to share it.  How do you share it without offense?  That's where I am at.  But I appreciate your position and am willing to discuss without being overbearing.

            1. 0
              Deborah Sextonposted 23 months ago in reply to this

              ______________________________
              That's an untrue statement. Ask any mother
              We as mother's love unconditionally
              I would live and die for my children, my son, and adopted daughter both
              No matter what they do, I will love them and stand beside them

              If you can't love unconditionally, don't say everyone can't, it's your shortcoming, not everyone's

            2. jonnycomelately profile image86
              jonnycomelatelyposted 23 months ago in reply to this

              I say to all of that, Mishpat, stop believing that what you have is what everyone else needs.   That is the path of all outwardly focusing religion.   It's ego, just that. 

              I have tried to do the same in my own life...both doing as you are doing, believing that the message I had was "need" to be received by others.... and then dropping that BS, and saying, "It is within ME that the answers must be found." 

              The so-called message of Christ has been so, so distorted, by so many well-meaning souls, into a message that says, "A distant life, obscure, built-up belief systems, conducive to man's egotistical designs, holds the answer to everyone's problems."  This teaching has supported Roman and post-Roman church dominance and authority for hundreds of years.  It has brought about wars and supported much of the grotesque distortion in modern life.

              As perceived in the texts, even that Christ person himself did not promote himself as the answer.  He was continually pointing individuals to their inner life, their inner conscience, to find the answers.

              "I AM. the way the truth and the life" does just that.
              "Come unto ME,"  also points you that way.
              "...all Ye who are heavy laden..."  i.e., each one of us...
              "...and I will give you rest." 

              It is the meditative state, the praying alone, in private, which can lead into that central font of wisdom, applicable to one's own life, not so much that of others.

              Religion will direct you otherwise, because others wish to control your mind.  But THE way is via your own inner resources.  So I am in control of my life.  You have no need to worry about, or pray for me, Mishpat..... thank you all the same.

    2. 0
      Deborah Sextonposted 23 months ago in reply to this

      __________________________________
      Well, not actually true. I came to the forums to raise my hubber score, which did occur. from 65-79.
      When I got here I read threads that said incorrect things about the Jewish people, and what the bible says, and felt I should and wanted to post...

      I am not allowed to ask people to convert to our religion. My job is to discourage others from converting.
      http://www.chabad.org/library/article_c … rsions.htm
      http://www.askmoses.com/en/article/194, … daism.html
      Why would I care what religion you are?

      You specifically asked me to discuss our beliefs with you. Now you are saying I am trying to convert you?
      I knew better than to trust your intentions...but I went ahead and gave you the benefit of a doubt

      1. mishpat profile image61
        mishpatposted 23 months ago in reply to this

        There is no concern about your trying to convert me.  I was interested in the recent changes in the doctrine of the Hasidic Jew and posed some questions once a foundation for dialogue was established.

        In your comments to others, you had said something to the effect that you do not respond to folks that are irritating or obnoxious.  (I don't remember the exact wording, but words to that nature).  And I have no problem with that position as it is the same one I take. 

        When you chose not to respond to my last several questions regarding the Masoretic texts, I assumed I must have hit a button and we were "finished talking."  But as I read your other posts, I recognized that, being a convert to Judaism yourself, you probably would not have the background needed to properly answer my questions.

        I honored your stated position by not posting comments or responses to you directly, even though there were several inconsistencies regarding Christians and the Bible in some of your postings.

        1. 0
          Deborah Sextonposted 23 months ago in reply to this

          ______________________________
          I don't remember saying that I "do not respond to folks that are irritating or obnoxious" Direct me to this please with a link

          Any questions you posted and I saw, and than read, I answered. I don't remember saying don't respond to me directly Give me a link to this please
          In fact if you didn't reply to me, or address me I wouldn't have responded. I am very well equipted to answer questions. The Hasidic Jewish people, have not made any changes in what they know (believe is the right word). Again direct me to this information
          You're saying all kinds of things without backup

          1. mishpat profile image61
            mishpatposted 23 months ago in reply to this

            I find no need to go searching for what you missed.  You may also want to check the history of Baal Shem Tov, whose teachings seem to be your equipment.  I am quite certain his teachings would have brought about a "stoning" when Hasidism was the orthodox system of Judaism.

            1. 0
              Deborah Sextonposted 23 months ago in reply to this

              I get most of my "stuff" from God, and Hebrew scripture
              Hasidism still is the orthodox system of Judaism....
              But due to your lack of understanding, you think we go against the bible, yet you think Yahshua is God.
              Your Idol
              You're the one who would be stoned.
              You read, but obviously you don't understand

              You stated that I said things that I didn't, so give a link or take it back whether you feel like searching or not. Don't quote someone without proving they said it

              Hasidism has always been of the Orthodox, and we have always used Jewish Mysticism, what's your point?

              How much people think they know about the Jewish people, and how little they actually do, especially you

        2. 0
          Deborah Sextonposted 23 months ago in reply to this

          ______________________
          That is a blatant lie, and that's Libel
          I have NEVER said anything about "irritating or obnoxious", and I never implied it
          Link to it or stop

          1. mishpat profile image61
            mishpatposted 23 months ago in reply to this

            Good Morning.  I took some time to go back over most of our previous conversations (as of last night) and am unable to find a statement made by you about not replying to the "irritating and obnoxious."   I'll not spend any more time on that issue.  I stand corrected and apologize for the misunderstanding.  I'll need some time to catch up on responses since then.

    3. A.Villarasa profile image80
      A.Villarasaposted 23 months ago in reply to this

      A lot of the so-called  atheists the are on Hub Pages were once religionists   themselves, but somehow in their haste to meet God, forgot that they needed  to make themselves absolutely  of materialist  thinking and tethering. The fact that they failed in that regard is to their thinking not any more consequential than the other things that they failed in in their daily lives.

      1. mishpat profile image61
        mishpatposted 23 months ago in reply to this

        In talking with many of these, and reading their comments here, it would seem the church, i.e. its members, failed these folk miserably.  But I do appreciate your term "religionists."  It would be a positive if we could find a way to explain to the many here that "religionists" are not necessarily believing people, and that most believers dislike the term and associated terms.

      2. A.Villarasa profile image80
        A.Villarasaposted 23 months ago in reply to this

        I. Meant to say "free of. Materialist thinking and tethering..."

    4. 0
      Deborah Sextonposted 23 months ago in reply to this

      My next reply is about your Belief that Jesus is the Messiah, and at the same time he is God,
      I see you believe nothing like the Jewish
      You said Quote "I believe God.  I believe Jesus is the Christ, that He is God.  That is a position.  Now if you disagree with me in any manner, and try to explain where I am wrong, then" End Quote

      I will try but it's up to you.

    5. oceansnsunsets profile image88
      oceansnsunsetsposted 23 months ago in reply to this

      You bring up an interesting point, as we do see others trying to reason how Christians also.  It is given another name, but essentially is doing the same thing, change someones mind toward a better view.  It is suggested often also, that it is a more moral view, with more freedoms for people (sometimes.)  If they think its a poor view for whatever reason, then it is a kind thing or normal thing of them to try and show the error of the Christian's ways, if any.  This is how I look at it. 

      The inherent truth, unpleasant as it may be, is that opposing views can't all be true at the same time.  We know this intuitively, yet observe others believing what they do, with all their hearts and minds!  Thus, its normal to have a bit of curiosity and questions, and also to want to give our reasons for believing whatever we do, or whatever we think is right.  I daresay its moral of us as creatures to do so, because not all CAN be right.  They could all be wrong though.  One might BE right!

      In case some ARE looking for reasons to believe, then I will totally share my views when asked, or I see it being discussed.  This is why anyone ever makes a thread!  I assume the best, they want to discuss.  Not attack.  You can usually tell pretty quickly. 

      So I agree its not really a fair point to go after one group in particular, on threads that are about religion, FOR expressing their views, and I and I know some others have observed the same.  I also believe in God.  My explaining my reasons for my view, and others giving their reasons for not thinking that is a correct view, are just that.

  13. Jerami profile image78
    Jeramiposted 23 months ago

    A while back in this thread I ask Deborah for any verses in the OT that proves to her that Jesus was not the messiah. She was kind enough to give them to me. I read them; I understood these verses to be saying something different than she does. We discussed this difference of interpretation. She didn't tell me that I was wrong, nor did I argue that I was "RIGHT".

       I understand many verses in the NT differently than most Christians do.
    I contribute this to my understanding Prophesy differently in both the  OT and the NT than does most Christians.  I believe the prophesy in the OT should be understood to the best of our ability before we even consider those written in the NT. 
       The OT is after all the foundation upon which our understanding of the NT stands and must stay within the parameters of if we are going to understand it correctly.
       However; all of the NT churches I have ever attended encourages their members to stand upon the NT, interpreting its meanings and then and only then go to the OT interpreting what we read in a way as to conform to our interpretation of what we think the NT is saying.
    That does not seem logical to me. 

      I do believe in a God similar to the entity which Abraham describes, but not because the bible says so.
    There is no reason for me to not believe that God took an interest in one particular group of people and interacted in such a way as to change the course of all of society, that it would come to what it is today.
       
       In the mean time, I can not say with all confidence that anyone including myself is right or wrong, because we all believe different things for different reasons. And because it is written in the bible that "Nothing is as it appears to be"  And I truly believe that to be so.

    1. oceansnsunsets profile image88
      oceansnsunsetsposted 23 months ago in reply to this

      Jerami, this is mostly in general to a larger group, but some is to you.  Sorry so long.

      Interesting.  I went back and read some of the prior discussion.  Its like I am reading completely different words, meaning ,nuances and tone than everyone else, and I can't help but wonder at what I am observing. 

      If I had the time in my life, I wish I could respond to everything. I saw the opposite of what you did pretty much, and have continued to, regarding the responses to the Messiah topic. 

      I have been to a lot of Christian churches.  Most actually don't go into prophecy a whole lot, as its a deeper and tougher subject.  They do however, focus on what they believe to the fulfillment of a lot of prophecy, which I believe is in agreement with part of your conclusion as well.  To delve deeply into Isaiah for example first, and then discuss the later fulfillment as they believe, would take hours if not days.  So often they do take the fulfillment, and look back to the prophecy, and share that with people, but know full well that isn't the order in which you do it, nor did they at the time of Christ and prior.  Many did take it at face value, and as it unfolded, knew what they were seeing. So I wonder if its a little harsh to suggest churches today are not doing what you're  doing as a student of prophecy, when I don't know that they are setting out to teach the method of prophecy in short meeting time.  I don't really see any of what you said there as that anyway, but trying to be conciliatory to other views, which is very nice, and not returned in kind. 

      My biggest warning is to look out for inconsistencies which is illogical, saying some particular texts and words of Jesus and the apostles aren't valid at some times then using them often in other discussions, (sometimes without acknowledgement or maybe even knowing, while putting them down all the same in another breath), look for people saying one thing, then acting in an opposite manner completely, and true lack of humility or ability to even be possibly wrong.  God is very clear in many texts in the bible what he thinks about all kinds of things.  I just thought more people would see what seems very obvious to me.  I would encourage people to watch out also for punishment and reward, or simple "side taking" with their own views and people that they perceive to be in agreement or allowance of almost all they say, while speaking out against the others in unfair ways.  To me, a lot of this isn't about truth or seeking God at all.  Its hard to know if some are really seeking God and truth, but if they are, I wanted to say a lot of what I just did, generally speaking. Not all that claim all kinds of things, are necessarily speaking for God.  Normally, this goes without saying.  I see a lot of people being hoodwinked though, and its alarming.  Perhaps they are just being nice, and don't want to fiddle with it like I don't want to. 

      These forums are for discussions of ideas, and going back and forth as we like.  Everyone wants winning ideas, or the best of the available ideas. I believe we can personally be deceiving ourselves and others when we have ideas that we want to fall in that category, but they don't naturally fall into it.  Thus, the personal choice to engage in tactics when testing the ideas.

      Without knowing 100% you are right, you can be pretty sure you are on the side of what seems to be the best views available.  Of course things aren't all that they seem, and its one of the things I love about God.  While humans often judge others and use rose colored glasses on their own views, and go after others with a glass half empty version of things or worse, God knows our hearts, and all truth.  Not being a judge that is too lenient nor too harsh, HE is the best.  So I am content to be patient for him.  In the mean time though, it is upon us all that seek goodness and truth to share that with a world that shuns the idea there might be more to life than meets the eye, and get caught up in lies and deceptions about things for various reasons, but not for the best actual reasons.

    2. PhoenixV profile image79
      PhoenixVposted 23 months ago in reply to this

      Hebrews 1 King James Version (KJV)

      1 God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,

      2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;

      1. Jerami profile image78
        Jeramiposted 23 months ago in reply to this

        Thank you for the links
        I've just read about half of one of them. I will inspect them all.
        A few of my unasked questions have been answered. Though I won't debate them as facts, but from lack of any other information concerning my unasked questions ?   Makes sense to me and doesn't change any beliefs currently held.

           I was reminded of one fact.  The church refer to Ezekiel for the rebuilding of the temple. Church doctrine makes a connection between the rebuilding of the temple in Jerusalem with the second coming of the Messiah.  I have not read any verses in the bible correlating these two events as being connected one with the other.
            Ezekiel made his reference of the temple being rebuilt between 597 and around 575 BC.
            I see that prophesy as being fulfilled in 538 BC; approx 40 or 50 years after being given. And the regathering of his people. They were already in exile when that prophesy about the people being brought to Jerusalem was given.


        The rebuilding of the Jewish Temple in Jerusalem took several decades. The project was first led by Sheshbazzar (about 538 BC), later by Zerubbabel and Jeshua, and later still by Haggai and Zechariah (520–515 BC). The work was completed in 515 BC.

            Isaiah 44:28  specifies Cyrus as being the one to rebuild the temple more than a hundred years before it was in need of being rebuilt.
             Ezra 1 says  that Cyrus makes a proclamation that God has  "Charged him" (or commanded him ?) to do it.
             Daniel 9:25 says that from the going forth of the command to do this, it shall be 69 weeks unto Messiah the Prince; ...  and 62 weeks before the messiah is to be cut off or killed.
           This means the 62 weeks began in 538 BC.
           For some reason the church teaches that the 62 weeks began around 450 BC when the gates and walls were completed.
            This point more than any other; when I first came upon it about caused me to rethink everything I thought I knew about the bible.
            If Jesus was the Messiah refereed to in Daniel 9; 568 years go by before this prophesy is fulfilled.
        62 weeks in prophesy =s approx 568 of our years.
           If we take this equation and apply it every time a time period is given in prophesy before an event is to happen, or an event will last for a certain time frame, you will be totally surprised at the story that comes to life.   
            If we can not believe the message that our bible tells us God gave to his messenger angel to deliver to one of his prophets ......   Well,...it we don't believe that one, why would we believe any other over it?

        Why do we interpret other verses in scripture which comes 600 years later in such a way as to contradict such a simply stated message from God as the one described above.

             The 70 weeks as described in Daniel 9:24 that the children of Daniels people had to quit sinning and anoint the Most high, most definitely would have been accomplished while there was a Nation of Israel to be exacted upon.   That Nation of Israel ceased to exist as a nation in 138 AD.
           was scattered into the wilderness for 1260 days as described approx 40 years earlier by John while on the Isle of Patmos.
           Mathematically speaking;  If the 62 weeks was completed around 30 AD;  the 69 weeks would have come to an end around 96 AD. 
        and the 70 weeks around 105 AD.   And then 40 years later, the Hebrew Nation was no more.

        No one believes me, but I believe this 62 weeks until the Messiah is cut off is the key to lifting the veil over prophesy in scripture.  The mystery's concerning prophesy as described in scripture disappears, when we stop believing false interpretations of verses that never needed to be interpreted in the first place.
           One simple truth can be hidden for eternity under a mountain of interpretations  as a rare coin hidden under a multitude of counterfeits. Especially when all of the counterfeits are 99% perfect.

          I am not saying I have found the one simple truth.  But I am attempting to separate the rusty pennies from the shiny dimes.
           After almost two decades of searching; I've come full circle.
           I think all we have to do is (keep it simple) read the words written in read and live by them. It is not written that I should judge people even when they have a different sexual orientation than I and they shouldn't judge me. I'm not even going to judge those that love the kind of music that I hate.  I'm just not going to listen to their music with them.
          If they want to judge me for my predigest, that is OK with me; will be their loss not mine.

      2. Jerami profile image78
        Jeramiposted 23 months ago in reply to this

        2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;

          every one of Jesus's followers believed they were living the last lays that Jesus spoke of.
        I believe they would know better than we.

          and I will keep reading those links, though I am a slow reader.

        1. PhoenixV profile image79
          PhoenixVposted 23 months ago in reply to this

          That was my response to where you posted this : "The OT is after all the foundation upon which our understanding of the NT stands and must stay within the parameters of if we are going to understand it correctly.


          Specifically, I was wondering why you would consider the OT the foundation, when God spoke to the fathers through the prophets, but spoke "directly" through His Son?

          1. Jerami profile image78
            Jeramiposted 23 months ago in reply to this

            I could be wrong in my perceptions, but I see the OT and NT as a sequel. Kinda like Crocodile Dundee 1 and 2. If Dundee was born and raised in Australia in Dundee 1,  But in the sequel a third party says something different, we wouldn't reinterpret the first movie to that it would agree with this third persons description of who Dundee was. The second story concerning the same facts would have to agree with that which came first.
                There are many stories in the bible where God is speaking to different people who are in different circumstances where it may appear to be conflicting messages. There may be instances such as this which can appear to be contradictory in nature.
               But when speaking of prophesy, If in the older story gives a certain description of an event, and years and years later the same event is again described, I believe we should understand the latter prophesy in a manner as to conform to the first rendition.
            And not immediately transform the earlier story in a manner as to conform to the latter one.

            A foundation is laid, and then the house must lie upon it. If we build the house first how can we then lay the foundation under it?

            1. PhoenixV profile image79
              PhoenixVposted 23 months ago in reply to this

              Okay I think I see what you mean, you were speaking "specifically" of prophecy and how it "logically" should align itself in a linear time fashion. I have a tendency to see scripture three dimensionally and non linear time-wise eg  Jesus was born, "And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us,,,, “This was He of whom I said, ‘He who comes after me is preferred before me, for He was before me.

              1. Jerami profile image78
                Jeramiposted 23 months ago in reply to this

                I think we all can say; I was before I am and will be again.

              2. Jerami profile image78
                Jeramiposted 23 months ago in reply to this

                If we could live in a space out side of time, and yet see into it, would we see a chronoligical order or purpose.

        2. PhoenixV profile image79
          PhoenixVposted 23 months ago in reply to this

          Yes, they are interesting to me and I thought someone like you, that studies or analyzes scripture, far more intricately than I do (I believe) would be interested;

          Here is some more from wiki from various articles there:

          Biblical Hebrew has been written with a number of different writing systems. The Hebrews adopted the Phoenician script around the 12th century BCE, which developed into the Paleo-Hebrew script. This was retained by the Samaritans, who use the descendent Samaritan script to this day

          The Samaritans claimed that they were the true Israel who were descendants of the "Ten Lost Tribes" taken into Assyrian captivity. They had their own temple on Mount Gerizim and claimed that it was the original sanctuary. Moreover, they claimed that their version of the Pentateuch was the original and that the Jews had a falsified text produced by Ezra during the Babylonian exile.

          Samaritan is a direct descendant of the Paleo-Hebrew alphabet, which was a variety of the Phoenician alphabet in which large parts of the Hebrew Bible were originally penned.

          During the 3rd century BCE, Jews began to use a stylized, "square" form of the Aramaic alphabet that was used by the Persian Empire (which in turn was adopted from the Assyrians),[2] while the Samaritans continued to use a form of the paleo-Hebrew script, called the Samaritan script.

          various wiki sources

  14. 0
    Deborah Sextonposted 23 months ago

    People get angry when I say the Jewish people are God’s Chosen people, and God calls them the “Elect”. They accuse the Jewish people of being arrogant, and racially prejudice.
    They aren’t, but if they were, how is this any different than being anti-semitic? I’ve got to tell you, it’s not. And there’s plenty of that.

    But the scriptures call the Jewish people the Elect, and the Chosen people, we/I didn’t make it up.

    It doesn’t mean that as Jewish people, we are somehow closer to God.
    In the Jewish understanding, being chosen  leads not to being arrogant, but rather to humility. If it were some human king that chose us to be his special people, then your assumption would be correct -- we would become elitists. When a mortal power shows favoritism towards a subject, that subject will become more arrogant as a result -- the closer you are to the king, the more significant you are, and the more significant you are the higher respect you feel you deserve.

    But the Hebrews, later called the Jewish people were chosen by God. And the closer you become to God, the more you sense your insignificance. While rubbing elbows with a human king, or any other leader,  may inflate your ego, a relationship with God bursts your selfish bubble. Because God is an infinite being, and all illusions of self-importance fall away when you stand before the infinite. Being close to God demands self-examination, and self-improvement, not smugness.

    To The Jewish People
    Your humility is so deep, it doesn't allow you to accept that you are chosen. While most other religious groups are quite comfortable claiming that they are the best, the Jewish people will do anything to say that we are nothing special. Now that's what I call a Chosen People!

    Deuteronomy 7:6
    For thou art an holy people unto the Lord thy God: the Lord thy God hath chosen thee to be a special people unto himself, above all people that are upon the face of the earth.

    Deuteronomy 14:2
    For thou art an holy people unto the Lord thy God, and the Lord hath chosen thee to be a peculiar people unto himself, above all the nations that are upon the earth.

    The Hebrews-Later called the Jews are the Chosen, are the Elect, is Israel, and Judah, and is the Afflicted Servant

    Isaiah 45:4
    For Jacob my servant's sake, and Israel mine elect, I have even called thee by thy name: I have surnamed thee, though thou hast not known me. (Jacob's name was later renamed Israel, so Jacob and Israel are the same)

    Isaiah 42:1
    Behold my servant, whom I uphold; mine elect, in whom my soul delighteth; I have put my spirit upon him: he shall bring forth judgment to the Gentiles.

    2 Kings 17:20
    And the Lord rejected all the seed of Israel, and afflicted them, and delivered them into the hand of spoilers, until he had cast them out of his sight.


    Are the Jews the Chosen People?
    By Aron Moss

    “This is the idea of the Chosen People -- a nation of individuals who have been given the opportunity to sense G-d's closeness, hear His truth and relay his message to the world. All agree that it was the Jews that introduced the world to monotheism and a system of ethics and morals that has shaped the modern view of life and its purpose. And it is the survival of Judaism to this day that attests to the eternal value of this system”

  15. 0
    Deborah Sextonposted 23 months ago

    Scripture indicating that YAHSHUA, (JESUS) - is NOT THE JEWISH MESSIAH
    This is to show scripture, not to offend, or to convert anyone

    Scripture References

    In order to understand anything in the Torah a person has to look at the original Hebrew. You will see that the people who put together the Christian’s bible distorted, changed and misinterpreted many of the Hebrew words in order to fit things into their beliefs.

    The two places in scripture that are good examples is: In Psalm 22:17 the Hebrew states "hikifuni ca'ari yaday veraglay" which means "they bound me (hikifuni) like a lion (ca-like ari-lion), my hands (yaday) and my feet (ve-and raglay-my feet).

    The Christians translate this as "they pierced my hands and feet". Nowhere in the entire Torah, Prophets and Writings do the words ca'ari or hikifuny mean anything remotely resembling "pierce".

    In Isaiah 7:14 the Hebrew states "hinei ha'almah harah veyoledet ben" "behold (hineih) the young woman (ha - the almah- young woman) is pregnant (harah) and shall give birth (ve-and yoledet-shall give birth) to a son (ben)".

    The first Christians translated this as "behold a virgin shall give birth." They have made two mistakes (probably deliberate) in the one verse. They mistranslate "ha" as "a" instead of "the". They mistranslate "almah" as "virgin", when in fact the Hebrew word for virgin is "betulah".

    Aside from the fact that if you read the context of that prediction you will see clearly that it is predicting an event that was supposed to happen and be seen by king Achaz who lived 700 years before Jesus! .
    God would not give a man a sign to assure him, and then put it so far in the future (700 years) that he would never live to see this promised sign

  16. Jerami profile image78
    Jeramiposted 23 months ago

    good morning oceansnsunsets  and all

    When I read through all the posts; seemed like most all has their good points.
    Everybody is right a little bit.
        concerning being a chosen people.  I remember being "Chosen"  by my 6th grade teacher to be made an example of.  Being Chosen is a good and bad thing rolled up into one.
         I believe that in order to understand most anything, we should keep it as simple as possible.
         As Deborah has stated,  I also believe Many of the words were grossly mistranslated intentionally for a purpose. 
        And some of what was probably translated correctly has been grossly min interpreted. IMO.

          But when it is all said and done, I don't think this makes much difference.
         Seems to me; this is the way it was intended.  When a person believes the bible, and reads prophesy, we are reading future events which God has spoken into existence.
        As with the story of the Tower of Babble. ????
    Every body saying the same things and yet understanding as if everyone speaking a different language.  Or something like that.
         One more reason I don't post on here very often.

    1. oceansnsunsets profile image88
      oceansnsunsetsposted 23 months ago in reply to this

      Good afternoon Jerami, I sense you don't like to upset people, and post accordingly.  That is fine and even very kind of you to do perhaps, but it will make it hard to know where you really, personally stand on things.  Being a student of prophecy like you seem to be, you would have a lot to offer to others. 

      I hope you keep on posting, and often as you feel a mind to!  I don't mind you disagreeing with me and won't give you a hard time for it.  I think its a good thing for all of us to test our ideas against each other, as I don't want to believe things for poor reasons. 

      Perhaps God did allow his personal revelation to get full blown errors into it by humans along the way, and we can't trust the texts as we thought.  I don't know that that is an idea I could support, because he seems to have secured it pretty well as far as I can see.  My point in pointing out the inconsistencies was not to debate that point so much.  It was just to point them out.  To explain other Hebrew words, the Masoretic texts are used also.  It seems to depend on the thread, topic, who is being responded to, and what side the person is on, etc. Not all would know this.  When I used the same tools, with the same results, it wasn't ok. I think it is, and no one has shown why it isn't as of yet.  I want to be shown wrong however, but it hasn't been done.  Some just cease the communication instead.  So I am talking to those that will talk to me about it, lol.

      1. Jerami profile image78
        Jeramiposted 23 months ago in reply to this

        Well the football games is over, Houston won; Baltimore didn't, season is over for Houston.

           It isn't so much that I don't like to upset people as much as it is that I see and understand most every ones point of view. I might even agree whole wholeheartedly If I could express it differently puting a different slant on the point they are trying to make.

          As hard as I try I am unable to express myself sufficiently for me to be understood as intended. I haven't had many opportunities to come down with both feet on one side of an issue and remain true to how I really feel about that issue.
           I'll attempt to sum up my thoughts in a brief as possible manner, starting with Jesus; because he is what Christianity is allegedly all about.
          Concerning how we should behave? ... In my "Red Letter" bible, those words which Jesus is quoted as saying, Is all that I need to know concerning how I should live my life and treat others.
           I don't need to read Paul's interpretations as to what Jesus meant to say or would have said if given the opportunity.
            In Matthew 23; Jesus is facing off on those scribes and Pharisee which were standing in front of him. (23:34)  "Wherefore, behold, I send unto YOU prophets and wise men, and scribes, and some of them YOU shall kill and crucify, and some of them YOU shall scourge in your synagogues, and persecute them from city to city". 

          Immediately after this, four disciples come to him   privately   asking Jesus , When are THEY going to do those things.   In this instance the word "Privately" carries great importance.
            Talking to his four disciples, Jesus privately answers their private question.
             Jesus continues. Matt. 24:4   "Take heed that no man deceive YOU".
        Who should we assume YOU represents in this conversation?
        24:9  Then they shall deliver YOU up to be afflicted, ( who is Jesus talking to here)  and they shall kill YOU ( and who is he talking to here ?)

             Maybe we should ask Deborah what other words could have been used in translating the original word used in 24:14   "world" 
             I suspect the same word Cyrus the great used when he said that God has given him All The Kingdoms of the World.    Cyrus did not conquer  all the kingdoms of the planet earth.
             Jesus talked about a great tribulation and of his coming  (again) in the clouds sitting at the right hand of power.
             He then went on to say that "THIS" generation shall not pass till all these things be fulfilled.  But no body knows what day or hour!
            That is like me saying, "I am going to buy a new car this year, but I don't know what day or hour!
          However, the church interprets every thing Jesus said in these two chapters to mean something entirely different than what is written.

           Another thing I noticed ...  In the book of Rev.  AS SOON as Jesus arrives in heaven, still looking like a bloody lamb as if it had just been slain, (as if he had just then crawled down off of the cross) , Immediately takes the book and opens the first four seals.
           And as soon as the seventh seal is opened ...  nothing happens ! A period of time passes depicting a clear and present passage of time before the seven trumpets are handed out.
        A separation of events.

           The acceptance of this being a fact as being stated in scriptures has lead me down a long path reading what the scriptures are actually saying instead of blindly accepting those interpretations being taught by the church for the past 1650 years.
            This took a decade for me to develop my own understanding  (right or wrong ?) of what scripture seemed to be saying.  This being accomplished, I thought I had all the answers and was greatly saddened because of it.
        it took many years in trying to understand the ramifications for what I thought I had discovered. prophesy.
           I think I have come full circle.
           If we truly live by the letters written in red, we will have lived a full and prosperous life.
        Just seems to me that if we can live a full and productive life, judging no one as being righteous or evil, we will avoid being judged.
            We should also know that we are not passing judgment or punishing a fox when we catch it in the hen house eating our chickens when we kill it. 

           oceansunsets  thank you for asking me to state my opinion.  though I can't cover it all given an unlimited time frame.
            Nothing is as it appears.

        1. PhoenixV profile image79
          PhoenixVposted 23 months ago in reply to this

          Good evening Jerami. Since you like prophecy, I thought this may be of interest to you if you havent seen it before:

          The Samaritans are adherents of Samaritanism, an Abrahamic religion closely related to Judaism. Based on the Samaritan Pentateuch,[4] Samaritans say that their worship is the true religion of the ancient Israelites prior to the Babylonian Exile, preserved by those who remained in the Land of Israel, as opposed to Judaism, which they say is a related but altered and amended religion, brought back by those returning from the Babylonian exile. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Samaritans

          Ancestrally, Samaritans claim descent from the Israelite tribes of Ephraim and Manasseh (the two sons of Joseph (son of Jacob)) as well as from the priestly tribe of Levi...'

          The split between them and their brothers; the children of Judah (the Jews) began during the time of Eli the priest, and the culmination was during the Kingdom of Israel and Kingdom of Judah when the Samaritans (then Kingdom of Israel) refused to accept Jerusalem as the elect, and remained on Mount Gerizim.

          The Samaritans say that Mount Gerizim was the original Holy Place of Israel from the time that Joshua conquered Israel.

          The mountain is sacred to the Samaritans who regard it, rather than Jerusalem's Temple Mount,

          http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mount_Gerizim

          The Paleo-Hebrew alphabet ‎ is an abjad variant of the Phoenician alphabet.

          It began to fall out of use by the Jews in the 5th century BCE when they adopted the Aramaic alphabet as their writing system for Hebrew, from which the present Jewish "square-script" Hebrew alphabet descends. The Samaritans, who now number less than one thousand people, continue to use a derivative of the Old Hebrew alphabet, known as the Samaritan alphabet.

          http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paleo-Hebrew_alphabet

          https://sites.google.com/site/interline … s-bereshit


          Religious beliefs

            -  There is one God, YHWH, the same God recognized by the Hebrew prophets.
            -  The Torah was given by God to Moses.
            -  Mount Gerizim, not Jerusalem, is the one true sanctuary chosen by Israel's God.
          -   Many Samaritans believe that at the end of days, the dead will be resurrected by Taheb, a restorer (possibly a prophet, some say Moses).
             - Paradise (heaven).
            -  The priests are the interpreters of the law and the keepers of tradition; scholars are secondary to the priesthood.
          -   The authority of post-Torah sections of the Tanakh, and classical Jewish rabbinical works (the Talmud, comprising the Mishnah and the Gemara) is rejected.
              -They have a significantly different version of the Ten Commandments (for example, their 10th commandment is about the sanctity of Mount Gerizim).


          http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Samaritans#Samaritanism

  17. 0
    Deborah Sextonposted 23 months ago

    God's Chosen People
    People get angry when I say the Jewish people are God’s Chosen people, and God calls them the “Elect”. They accuse the Jewish people of being arrogant, and racially prejudice, when someone mentions they are God's Chosen ones
    They aren’t arrogant, or racially prejudice, but if they were, how is this any different than being anti-semitic? I’ve got to tell you, it’s not. And there’s plenty of that.

    But the scriptures call the Jewish people the Elect, and the Chosen people, we/I didn’t make it up.

    It doesn’t mean that as Jewish people, we are somehow closer to God.
    In the Jewish understanding, being chosen  leads not to being arrogant, but rather to humility. If it were some human king that chose us to be his special people, then your assumption would be correct -- we would become elitists. When a mortal power shows favoritism towards a subject, that subject will become more arrogant as a result -- the closer you are to the king, the more significant you are, and the more significant you are the higher respect you feel you deserve.

    But the Hebrews, later called the Jewish people were chosen by God. And the closer you become to God, the more you sense your insignificance. While rubbing elbows with a human king, or any other leader,  may inflate your ego, a relationship with God bursts your selfish bubble. Because God is an infinite being, and all illusions of self-importance fall away when you stand before the infinite. Being close to God demands self-examination, and self-improvement, not smugness.

    To The Jewish People From Me
    Your humility is so deep, it doesn't allow you to accept that you are chosen. While most other religious groups are quite comfortable claiming that they are the best, the Jewish people will do anything to say that we are nothing special. Now that's what I call a Chosen People!

    Deuteronomy 7:6
    For thou art an holy people unto the Lord thy God: the Lord thy God hath chosen thee to be a special people unto himself, above all people that are upon the face of the earth.

    Deuteronomy 14:2
    For thou art an holy people unto the Lord thy God, and the Lord hath chosen thee to be a peculiar people unto himself, above all the nations that are upon the earth.

    The NT written for the Gentiles, says the Gentiles are the Chosen ones, not hardly, it was a position made by God for the nation of Israel, and Judah, and according to him, it is forever


    Are the Jews the Chosen People?
    By Aron Moss

    “This is the idea of the Chosen People -- a nation of individuals who have been given the opportunity to sense G-d's closeness, hear His truth and relay his message to the world. All agree that it was the Jews that introduced the world to monotheism and a system of ethics and morals that has shaped the modern view of life and its purpose. And it is the survival of Judaism to this day that attests to the eternal value of this system”

  18. mishpat profile image61
    mishpatposted 23 months ago

    The Hebrew, the chosen people of God, chosen as an example that mankind, given every possible opportunity, including the direct intervention of God, will err.  It would seem even the designate or name of "Hebrew" was not good enough as they later took the label of "Jew."  Their favorite response to God "All that you say, we will do."  Well, they did not, and the curses promised by God for unbelief has come upon them.

    The Jew was the "example" of and for mankind and the Law was the "schoolmaster." 

    Hold on now, Gentiles!  You haven't done any better.  History has taught us that the sons of Noah, Shem, Ham and Japheth each had a shot at world rule and peace.  Ham and Shem showed us nothing but failure.  Now the Gentiles have their turn.  Look around you.  Is this what one calls success?

    The Jew was the chosen people of God, but He is not through with them yet.  Look to Israel.  Great things are yet to happen there.  And those Great things will be the precursor of the end of the "end times."

    And God is still blessing those that bless His chosen people.

    1. 0
      Deborah Sextonposted 23 months ago in reply to this

      ______________________
      If you wanted to show the Jewish people honor, you would stop calling them derogatory names like "Jew", People who are Jewish, especially those who are Jewish in heart don't like that word. It's Jewish. Only a Jewish person should call another a "Jew"

      God's promises are forever, and the Jewish people haven't messed up anything, they are still God's Chosen people, and the Elect. Tell God he's turned his back on the Nation of Israel, see what he says
      Good day

      1. janesix profile image60
        janesixposted 23 months ago in reply to this

        Jewish are not special. They aren't "chosen", as much as you'd like to think you are. Maybe it's time to get off your high horse.

        1. 0
          Deborah Sextonposted 23 months ago in reply to this

          ____________________________
          It's what Scripture says, they they are Chosen. I never said special, you interpret the word chosen as to mean special. I didn't indicate it.
          Chosen does not mean special it means: having been selected as the most appropriate for something
          I'm sorry that your bias causes you to put incorrect definitions on words

          1. janesix profile image60
            janesixposted 23 months ago in reply to this

            "Scripture" isn't evidence of anything. Who cares what your book says? You are not chosen for anything. Deal with being normal like the rest of us. Who is the biased one here? Not me. I don't think anyone is special.

          2. 0
            Deborah Sextonposted 23 months ago in reply to this

            ___________________
            It's time you got off your rude horse
            This  thread is about God and scripture, and I'll quote from anything I wish
            I'm not a chosen person, because I am converted into Judaism only, and not born into it.
            I have no high horse

        2. mishpat profile image61
          mishpatposted 23 months ago in reply to this

          Sorry, once again you have your theology messed up.  The word "Jew" is not a derogatory term.  It is a descriptive, scriptural term, used by the writers of Esther, Jeremiah and Zechariah as well as the writings of Paul in the NT.  We also find the term Jewess in the New Testament.  However, the term "Jewish" is not a scriptural term as it is found nowhere in the Bible.

          1. 0
            Deborah Sextonposted 23 months ago in reply to this

            No you're wrong. I'm Jewish, I know.
            Amazing out you know more about the Jewish than the Jewish, or so you think

            From:http://www.ohr.edu/ask_db/ask_main.php/271/Q1/
            "That said, however, it is indeed a fact that in English usage and literature, "Jew" is a "vituperative" insult. This is according the Oxford English Dictionary, considered the foremost authority of the English Language. "

            From: http://forum.wordreference.com/showthread.php?t=861285
            "Yes, Jewish means his culture while hes a Jew means that you are insulting the person of his culture".

            From: http://www.wisegeek.org/should-i-say-jew-or-jewish.htm
            "As a result, these attitudes have shifted the way in which people view the word “Jew.” as an offense

            The issue is that “Jew” is often used as a pejorative. Antisemitic rhetoric refers to “dirty Jews” and uses “Jew” as though it is an insult, rather than an adjective, and as a result, it sounds jarring to hear someone referred to as “a Jew,” rather than “Jewish.” Furthermore, the word has also historically been used to describe being cheated out of something, as in “I got Jewed on that deal,” referencing a widely-held stereotype that Jews are greedy swindlers"

            We can't all be wrong about what offends us

          2. 0
            Deborah Sextonposted 23 months ago in reply to this

            _____________________
            Well let's see, I live today. The term wasn't offensive in bible days, but those days are over.
            I have asked you not to refer to the Jewish as Jews, it is derogatory, and it is personal attack

          3. oceansnsunsets profile image88
            oceansnsunsetsposted 23 months ago in reply to this

            Well of course it isn't derogatory.  It is used by Jewish and non,  all the time.   If someone wanted to be really derogatory, they can use all kinds of words, Jew not excluded, nor the word Jewish for that matter. And you can tell by context and tone.    I've not read all your posts but in what I have, I've never seen you be derogatory toward anyone mishpat. 

            I'm tired of this turned abound tactic that claims victimization, where not warranted.  Seems like very petty bickering to me and people ought not feel manipulated by it.  It's also what I've seen done when other valid points can't just be used instead.

            1. 0
              Deborah Sextonposted 23 months ago in reply to this

              _____________________
              It is derogatory..try learning instead of disagreeing with anyone who doesn't see things as you do

              Of course Jewish people use the word Jew, we're Jewish, we're allowed, non-Jewish people aren't allowed

              I've known of black people playfully calling each other the N word, but I bet you won't call anyone that!

              Please stop butting in, you have no idea what it's like to be Jewish, or what is offensive to us.
              That is Hate speech

              1. oceansnsunsets profile image88
                oceansnsunsetsposted 23 months ago in reply to this

                This is not about me needing to learn something from you though.  I think your position on non Jews not being allowed to use the word "Jew" is illogical an unreasonable yet you maintain it after being shown better reason and logic.  This is  "ban bait" as many call it.   

                I can post on these forums, freely.  Mishpat showed no hate speech and it's ridiculous to suggest using the word Jew is only derogatory if a non Jewish person is saying it.  I'm responding to you because you address my post specifically.  I avoid responding to your posts specifically, but the hate speech comment is over the top. 

                Also, please don't ask me to not speak to you then speak to me.  You could  then claim victimization again and that isn't playing fair.  The boards here and threads are for all of us , and no one person can control them.  I wouldn't speak so boldly on this if you didn't accuse many others, of what I see you actually doing to them.  I would rather encourage to get back to more fair points and ways or ignore, or expect people to continue to rebut fairly to you.  They aren't doing anything bad or evil in giving fair rebuttals, this is just how discussion and even debate works in general. You could then respond with fair rebuttals.

                Disclaimer, no where in this post am I verbatim attempting to quote.  These are my honest observations that seem to be observed by others as well.  None of us gets free passes here.

                Though I would like to truly discuss issues fairly with people like you, if it can't be done then what is the point in trying if I just get ridiculed, accused, the parameters keep changing, and I can't take what you say in one post to be necessarily your same stance in the next one?  If this is upsetting when people point them out, and you choose to only find some way they must be in the wrong instead of addressing the points themselves, then what is the point of discussing with those if various views?  I think there is a lot to be gained for all of us!  My goal is to open up the lines of communication not close them.

                1. 0
                  Deborah Sextonposted 23 months ago in reply to this

                  _________________________
                  I posted links showing that I am not making this up, Jewish people don't like being called Jew by a non-Jewish person . . All you have to do is look it up.
                  Any derogatory remark against any race should not be allowed. Why do you think that this rule should apply to everyone except the Jewish. Why do you think that just because you are comfortable calling us Jews, that we should take it, regardless of how we perceive it?
                  Putting your disclaimer doesn't allow you, or give you the right to call us names. Plus putting a disclaimer and calling people things, doesn't apply after you've already learned it's derogatory
                  It doesn't matter how great you feel about calling us that, it's about how we feel.
                  Every Jewish person is proud to be Jewish, but Jewish isn't what Jew means in non-Jewish countries, or to non-Jewish people

                  1. oceansnsunsets profile image88
                    oceansnsunsetsposted 23 months ago in reply to this

                    I don't buy your simple distortion of facts though.  You have made a ridiculous claim that you can't back up.  To back it up saying that Jewish people don't like to be called names is not making the point at all, but twisting it.  Of course they don't like being called names.  No group does.  That isn't what is  being talked about, yet you insert it.  I see this. 

                    Trying to distort this into me defending someone that called Jewish people a derogatory name, is immoral of you to do.  One has to wonder, why are you doing this?  I think, based on past discussions, this an exaggerated red herring, or other possible logical fallacy, to distract from some real points others brought up, in this case Mishpat.  You see, I am not afraid of the punishment/reward thing I observe in the forums from those that engage in it.  I think its a form of verbal bullying going on in fact. 

                    People have been very patient, that I have seen.  The thing is, one can't bulldoze their ideas through, and use sledgehammer rhetoric to make people "stand down" so to speak.  If this were a playground, then there are ways with words that can be "bullying."  I don't like it when I see it.   I think good ideas, facts, logic, and reasoning stand on their own.  No "bullying" or tactics needed.  We can't all be right, all the time, its not even possible or logical to think so.  Therefore, we all have choices of what to do if and when we are wrong.

                    I think its borderline slander, to keep suggesting hate speech of others, and saying things like, "Putting your disclaimer doesn't allow you, or give you the right to call us names."  For I haven't called Jewish people any names.  Please stop that.  No one has called them derogatory names.  This is not truth you speak, and is deceptive, and twisting things.  To further correct your error, I think its NOT ok to call any race, any derogatory names.  Who is doing the real damage here?  The irony. 

                    Once you stop speaking directly to me, unless these tactics change up, I will go back to not responding to your posts directly, for I find this and other things to be too dishonest of a manner to work with in discussion.  If I saw that were to change, then I would reconsider this.  So far, I am seeing a pattern when you and others disagree, and they don't end up apologizing and/or agreeing with you, especially if they are making good points with good reason, logic and back up for their comments. So the ball is in your court.   I am hoping for improvement. If it were a game, its like suggesting that cheating to win is ok, when we all know it really isn't.  What would be the point of playing with those people?  Speaking a lot in general here too.  These ideas from me, aren't being expressed here for the first time.

                    Btw, this isn't so personal, I just view it as a dangerous thing to engage in, for the set ups I see.  It sets people up to be punished for simply disagreeing, by any stretch like this we see.  Its not the only time either.  So it almost scares people into not just backing down or not just agreeing, to avoid the treatment  I want none of that.

                    1. 0
                      Deborah Sextonposted 23 months ago in reply to this

                      ________________________
                      I said they don't like being called Jew, therefore calling us Jews, is calling us names. It's a simple premise
                      I don't care whether you see it as wrong or not, I and a lot of others don't like it, so please don't do it
                      It offends me especially since you won't quit, and just keep on and on
                      Are you aware of how things make you feel? So am I. How can you tell another person how they fee;? You can't

                      Here you go

                      From: http://www.wisegeek.org/should-i-say-jew-or-jewish.htm
                      "As a result, these attitudes have shifted the way in which people view the word “Jew.” as an offense

                      The issue is that “Jew” is often used as a pejorative. Antisemitic rhetoric refers to “dirty Jews” and uses “Jew” as though it is an insult, rather than an adjective, and as a result, it sounds jarring to hear someone referred to as “a Jew,” rather than “Jewish.” Furthermore, the word has also historically been used to describe being cheated out of something, as in “I got Jewed on that deal,” referencing a widely-held stereotype that Jews are greedy swindlers"

                      http://www.ohr.edu/ask_db/ask_main.php/271/Q1/
                      "That said, however, it is indeed a fact that in English usage and literature, "Jew" is a "vituperative" insult. This is according the Oxford English Dictionary, considered the foremost authority of the English Language. "

                      From: http://forum.wordreference.com/showthread.php?t=861285
                      "Yes, Jewish means his culture while hes a Jew means that you are insulting the person of his culture".

                    2. 0
                      Deborah Sextonposted 23 months ago in reply to this

                      You're setting up yourself, by keeping on with this

    2. 0
      Deborah Sextonposted 23 months ago

      Mishpat
      My response

      Scripture Tells Us, The Promised Jewish Messiah will be a man, and not a deity. He won’t be half human, and half God, and he certainly won’t be God.  No where will you find this teaching in the Jewish scriptures.

      These ten verses in Ezekiel tell us that we can’t look on God’s face. We’ve studied this scripture in every possible way, using the four levels of interpretation of the Scriptures, called pardes, and these verses are LITERAL. You can not see God’s face and live. No amount of human flesh drawn taut across God’s face could prevent death if you looked on this face of brilliant light. So it goes to reason that Yahshua (Jesus) couldn’t be God, because they looked on the face of Yahshua, and lived
      Matthew 8:20
      And Jesus saith unto him, The foxes have holes, and the birds of the air have nests; but the Son of man hath not where to lay his head.

      Yahshua was the son of man, and the NT calls him that, many times. But God clearly said that he’s not a man, neither The Son of Man that he should repent

      Numbers 23:19
      God is not a man, that he should lie; neither the son of man, that he should repent: hath he said, and shall he not do it? or hath he spoken, and shall he not make it good?

      Ezekiel 33:13-23
      13 Now therefore, I pray thee, if I have found grace in thy sight, shew me now thy way, that I may know thee, that I may find grace in thy sight: and consider that this nation is thy people.
      14 And he said, My presence shall go with thee, and I will give thee rest.
      15 And he said unto him, If thy presence go not with me, carry us not up hence.
      16 For wherein shall it be known here that I and thy people have found grace in thy sight? is it not in that thou goest with us? so shall we be separated, I and thy people, from all the people that are upon the face of the earth.
      17 And the Lord said unto Moses, I will do this thing also that thou hast spoken: for thou hast found grace in my sight, and I know thee by name.
      18 And he said, I beseech thee, shew me thy glory.
      19 And he said, I will make all my goodness pass before thee, and I will proclaim the name of the Lord before thee; and will be gracious to whom I will be gracious, and will shew mercy on whom I will shew mercy.
      20 And he said, Thou canst not see my face: for there shall no man see me, and live.
      21 And the Lord said, Behold, there is a place by me, and thou shalt stand upon a rock:
      22 And it shall come to pass, while my glory passeth by, that I will put thee in a clift of the rock, and will cover thee with my hand while I pass by:
      23 And I will take away mine hand, and thou shalt see my back parts: but my face shall not be seen.

    3. 0
      Deborah Sextonposted 23 months ago

      Mishpat
      You said Quote "  Jesus is of the house/tribe of David/Judah through the line of Mary." End Quote

      I'm afraid not.....He has to be from the Tribe of Judah.

      The Tribe is inherited through the FATHER only, and never through the mother. It could not have come through Mary
      You can't MAKE a square peg fit into a round hole

      My husband is a Jewish Rebbe, born, and grew up in Israel, so you know more about Jewish Laws than he?  oookkay

      http://outreachjudaism.org/marys-genealogy/

      Referring to Christians claiming Jesus as king of the Jews, they are asserting, in essence that Jesus was the messiah, and the final heir to the throne of David. But this is self-defeating because it undermines the Christian claim that Jesus was miraculously conceived of a virgin.

      According to both Matthew and Luke, Jesus was born of a virgin. This claim, however, completely shatters the core Christian claim that Jesus was a legitimate heir to David’s throne and king of the Jews. The virgin birth myth undermines this fundamental Church teaching because tribal lineage is traced only through a person’s father, never the mother. This principle is clearly stated in th Torah in Numbers 1:

      “And on the first day of the second month, they assembled the whole congregation together, who registered themselves by families, by their fathers’ houses, according to the number of names from twenty years old and upward, head by head”.
      (Numbers 1:18)

    4. 0
      Deborah Sextonposted 23 months ago

      ________________________
      What people say, says so much about them
      The words people speak say more about the person speaking, than who, or what they are speaking about

      1. jonnycomelately profile image86
        jonnycomelatelyposted 23 months ago in reply to this

        So true of us all, if the "I"s are open to it!

        smile

    5. 0
      Deborah Sextonposted 23 months ago

      ¶ People who like to sin, and can't stop say: "All people sin, and can't keep God's commandments"  They also claim God's laws were abolished ¶

      § People who don't know how to love, and hate people, and like to judge others, say: unconditional love is above humans, and no one can love without putting conditions on that love §

      †Ω  Paul was the same way.
      Apparently because of his lies, the others knew Paul was a sinner.  According to Paul, he was a Pharisee, and knew the bible well, but still asked why he was being judged as a sinner, just because he lied
      Romans 3:7
      "For if the truth of God hath more abounded through my lie unto his glory; why yet am I also judged as a sinner?"
      Paul said: as long as the lies he told, resulted in God's glory, they were okay to tell 
      "For if the truth of God hath more abounded through my lie unto his glory; why yet am I also judged as a sinner??  †Ω

    6. 0
      Deborah Sextonposted 23 months ago

      For Mishpat

      You came in here dressed as a lamb, pretending to be friendly, and you mentioned your alleged Jewish friends
      You said you knew my beliefs, but would like to discuss them. You stated you wanted to know the teachings of the Messiah in Judaism today

      http://hubpages.com/forum/topic/127286? … ost2688892

      http://hubpages.com/forum/topic/127286#post2686136

      I responded with the answers to the questions you asked, and I stated that it wasn't to offend anyone, and I was posting it because you asked
      http://hubpages.com/forum/topic/127286? … ost2687057

      All along you were just baiting me

      Here you're asking me what we teach in our religion about Yahshua, and you're pretending you are interested in what bible I read.  You tried to make me think you were being sincere, and had good intentions, and I fell for it
      http://hubpages.com/forum/topic/127286? … ost2687600

      Though I knew by your words, that you were Christian, that you didn't agree with me, and did not believe as I do,  it didn't matter to me, I was polite, and friendly, and I was willing to speak to you about it
      http://hubpages.com/forum/topic/127286? … ost2687765

      Then you came back, and asked again what we teach about Jesus in Judaism today
      http://hubpages.com/forum/topic/127286? … ost2688008

      I answered you and told you, that we don't believe in the Messiah, but I was polite, and said I don't mean to offend you. I believe I am one of only two, who has expressed the desire not to offend anyone, especially since I was the one being offended
      http://hubpages.com/forum/topic/127286? … ost2688050

      Still yet again, you came back, but this time you were getting really insulting, stating that the Jewish people must hold some kind of position on Jesus. You even said that you wanted to know, if Judaism has ever expressed any bitter verbal attacks against Jesus. You said that's what you'd like to see. I assured you we hadn't
      See we go to Temple to worship God, not put others down. Is that what your church does? pick apart the other religions? How can we be bitter against a man who probably never existed. The only thing ever written about Jesus, is in the NT.. You even assured me that whatever I say is okay LOL yikes
      http://hubpages.com/forum/topic/127286? … ost2688252

      I told you again, that we never mention Jesus, and that the Jewish Messiah was yet to come
      http://hubpages.com/forum/topic/127286? … ost2688301

      So you came back and said Quote "that faith it would seem, is what we both have regatding the Messiah" End Quote, and this was in reference to my comment that Belief is a Christian concept, not a Jewish one
      Except you said faith, and I had already explained I was not speaking of faith, but belief
      Your comment
      http://hubpages.com/forum/topic/127286? … ost2688459

      We came full circle back to your first words to me, all because you wanted to dispute what I said, even though you didn't understand it

      http://hubpages.com/forum/topic/127286#post2686136

      After this, I saw a wolf take off his sheep clothing
      And all those biased against me, joins in, saying anything they want to me
      and expecting me to continue being nice..I think I've shown a lot of Patience
      Let me see you guys do it..at least I'm candid and not a sneak

    7. Parantap Bhatt profile image60
      Parantap Bhattposted 23 months ago

      I'm just saying that "secularism" has nothing to do with believing or disbelieving in God. I was surprised that the creator of the hub seems to have apparently quite honed vocabulary yet he made this mistake?
      It is the separation of state from religion, or simply the freedom to follow any religion.
      Sorry didnt mean to patronize anyone, i'm just here to state my opinions-

      1- I agree with the author about atheists, sometimes a few of them become over the top arrogant about their own belief or disbelief. They join in the conversation already in awe of their intellectual superiority and look down upon the believers.
      2- Here what I have against the believers, they too are no sheep. here is what I find interesting. They always seem to KNOW the truth because it has been said or written somewhere. I have never heard any believer in such conversations saying there may be a possibility that what was written long back then might be wrong.
      3-Science and scientists have openly said that the Truth is not absolute and they need to keep looking. The only reason to reject the concept of God and many others is the lack of any substantial proof and the contrary evidence as proven by science.
      4- We shouldn't be an egotist about our belief of disbelief in God. We should listen to all point of views, and should never impose our views upon others.
      5- All religion were created by men, nothing came from God (if there is any). So it is susceptible to flaws like all man made doctrines, even science. The difference is science accepts this.
      6- Religion was created to make a human being a better person, and live life harmoniously with everyone. Currently, we are seeing the opposite.

      1. A.Villarasa profile image80
        A.Villarasaposted 23 months ago in reply to this

        Separation of the spiritual from the physical as a metaphor for what secularist would like to see as separation of Church and State is the underlying concept of Secularism. In my view, human existence, both as physical and spiritual, should never be separated. Secularists separating church from state is just a metaphor for them to tease the physical from the spiritual component of human existence.

        1. Parantap Bhatt profile image60
          Parantap Bhattposted 23 months ago in reply to this

          I don't think this was the real reason this word came into being. Either ways I don't know why you see it like this but where I live, I have seen only the religious seculars rather than atheists. It might be possible that the only secular people you have met are either agnostics or atheists. So your opinion arose from your experience.
          Yeah I do believe many secular have a problem adjusting with their identity and yes they sometime start criticizing their faith without much knowledge. Please tell me what you think of it-
          "It is not wrong to be proud of your faith"
          http://parantapbhatt.hubpages.com/hub/Open-to-ideas
          Going by the etymology this word was neither a tease for the agnostics, since very few lived in the earlier times, nor a metaphor of the physical and the spiritual.
          Secularism, religious identity and spiritualism are not mutually exclusive and they can peacefully co-exist with each other.

          1. A.Villarasa profile image80
            A.Villarasaposted 23 months ago in reply to this

            The veracity of your last sentence, has been proven beyond doubt over the years, but secularism has been trodding quite a diversionary path ever since the hard core secularists, have taken hold of  the agenda to minimize , and indeed in some of their precincts, actually demolish the importance of  spiritual beliefs. In that sense secularists in tandem with atheists have been very aggressive  at  pushing their ideology almost to the brink of rupture.

            1. Parantap Bhatt profile image60
              Parantap Bhattposted 22 months ago in reply to this

              in all fairness, I have seen religious fanatics pushing their agenda more aggressively as compared to any atheist. In simple matters of human rights, religion takes over human freedom, for example, LGBT laws and the shared hatred for Gays or anything which strictly against the religious scripture.

     
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