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Can you prove scripturally that Lucifer (Isaiah 14) is Satan?

  1. Judah's Daughter profile image90
    Judah's Daughterposted 7 years ago

    The war in heaven that describes the fall of "the Dragon, the Serpent of Old, the Devil and Satan" and 1/3 of the angels is found only in Revelation 12.  There is no mention of the Dragon being an angel (even if you look up the Greek word and cross-references).  In fact, Lucifer is not called an angel anywhere.  His Hebrew name is Heylel, meaning "star of the morning, son of the dawn".  He is fallen from heaven, yes. 

    Traditional Christian doctrine states he was the highest angel that wanted to exalt his throne above God (because Isaiah 14 states such, except that it's speaking of the king of Babylon ~ which, I feel is spiritual Babylon).  Note the prophesied antichrist will claim to be God (the king of end-time Babylon).  If this is the case, he can't be Satan because the antichrist and false prophet are cast into the Lake of Fire a thousand years apart from Satan (who is bound in the bottomless pit for the millennial reign).

    Tradition teaches that Lucifer was chief of the music in heaven with intruments built into his being (Ezekiel 28:13).  That is in reference to a GUARDIAN cherub and king of Tyre.  While it states he was in the Garden of Eden, note Genesis 3:24 “After He drove the man out, He placed on the east side of the Garden of Eden cherubim and a flaming sword flashing back and forth to GUARD the way to the tree of life.” Is there proof that the GUARDIAN cheribum was also the serpent?

    If Lucifer (Heylel) is an angel, is there any proof that angels take on other than human form in the Bible (i.e. a snake - the Hebrew word for snake means snake)?  The Dragon is described as a serpent-like creature and is aligned with Leviathan in Job 41.  The curse to the serpent in Genesis 3:15 is that his head would be crushed.  Ps 74:14 also speaks of crushing the heads of Leviathan.  The beast that comes up out of the sea in Revelation 13 speaks of a beast with seven heads and is also called Satan (right after Rev 12 introducing the Dragon). 

    The only scripture that might be the foundational verse for this traditional teaching might be 2 Cor 11:14 which states that Satan diguises himself as an angel of light.  But is that all there is?  Are there any verifying scriptures?

    This should be an interesting forum.  Thank you for your participation.

    1. Sanctus Vesania profile image59
      Sanctus Vesaniaposted 7 years ago in reply to this

      Points

      According to some, the term serpent means snake, but also means seraphim.  It is either the Cherubim or Seraphim that are the highest order of angels.

      The king of Tyre mentioned in Ezekiel isn't Satan.  I have researched it, and the prophecy that God gives to Isaiah was already fulfilled.  Furthermore, one of the rulers that God sends after Tyre, and Hirum (the king of Tyre) was none other than the king of Babylon, king Nebuchadnezzar; the very same king nicknamed Lucifer in the book of Isaiah.

      It also wasn't uncommon for rulers at the time to claim themselves to be gods, take a look at the Pharoes for example.



      Isaiah 6:2-6

      2Above it stood the seraphims: each one had six wings; with twain he covered his face, and with twain he covered his feet, and with twain he did fly.

      3And one cried unto another, and said, Holy, holy, holy, is the LORD of hosts: the whole earth is full of his glory.

      4And the posts of the door moved at the voice of him that cried, and the house was filled with smoke.

      5Then said I, Woe is me! for I am undone; because I am a man of unclean lips, and I dwell in the midst of a people of unclean lips: for mine eyes have seen the King, the LORD of hosts.

      6Then flew one of the seraphims unto me, having a live coal in his hand, which he had taken with the tongs from off the altar:


      Also, Ezekiel chapter 1 describes the vision that Ezekiel had of God and a number of angels.  None of the angels are described as being human, and in fact a couple are described as wheels with eyes.


      Now, as for the dragon (Satan) ever being an angel.  Some say that Satan's angelic name is Samael and Satanel.  Samael meaning "The Venom of God" (which fits the snake theme)  He is described as being the chief of the satans.

      The guardian cherubim point.  I have read that this verse in Ezekiel is a mistranslation, and refers actually to the ark of the covenant.  The king of Tyre was appointed the guardian cherubims.

      1. Judah's Daughter profile image90
        Judah's Daughterposted 7 years ago in reply to this

        I don't know how to break up my responses to your quotes here like you have figured out, so I will respond in paragraphs below:

        The Hebrew word for "serpent" found in Genesis is nachash (naw-khawsh'); a snake (from its hiss):-serpent.  It is taken from nachash (naw-khash'); a prim. root; prop. to hiss, i.e. whisper a (magic) spell; gen. to prognosticate:- X certainly, divine, enchanter, (use) X enchantment, learn by experience, X indeed, diligently observe.  Can you provide any documentation that proves serpent also means Seraphim?

        So, we see Lucifer as king of Babylon and the king of Tyre is included in being called Lucifer?  Is this the "spirit of antichrist" that causes these kings to think of themselves as God?  You've stated that the Garden of Eden should not have been in Ezekiel where the king of Tyre was being addressed?  I'm not sure I can support that, for I take the Bible for what it says.  Obviously this is speaking of a guardian cherubim in the Garden of Eden (but doesn't mention Lucifer or Heylel in its context).

        We know angles took on the form of human males in the Bible (Lot, the stone being rolled away, etc.), but never have I seen an angel or cherubim take on the form of a beast (especially a snake).

        As far as Satan being the "venom of God", we know that the Dragon, the Serpent of Old, the Devil and Satan are one in the same; thus the Serpent would be called the "venom of God" as he is also the "wrath of God" as proven in 1 Chronicles 21:1 and it's sister verse in 2 Samuel 24:1.

  2. Sanctus Vesania profile image59
    Sanctus Vesaniaposted 7 years ago

    Yes.  According to Strong's concordance; the word Seraphim has the concordance number of 08313, and it means.

    1) serpent, fiery serpent
    1a) poisonous serpent (fiery from burning effect of poison)
    2) seraph, seraphim
    2a) majestic beings with 6 wings, human hands or voices in attendance
    upon God



    No, I see Lucifer as the nickname for king Nebuchadnezzar, the king of Babylon.  Hirum, the king of Tyre, is another king who became too proud.



    Verily.



    I can, because in chapter 31, God through Ezekiel describes the Pharoe of Egypt as a tree in Eden who became too proud, shot himself up to be higher than the other trees.  God cuts him down, tosses him out of Eden.

    So what, now we have the king of Babylon, the king of Tyre, and the Pharoe of Egypt all three being Satan; and now Satan is a Cherubim AND a tree?  I doubt it.



    Ezekiel chapter 1 and the book of Revelation.



    The name Samael also means "Blind god" or "god who blinds"


    I was looking at my book:  Gustav Davidson's "A Dictionary of Angels (including the fallen ones)"  and under Lucifer I noticed something.



    Job 4:18

    12Now a thing was secretly brought to me, and mine ear received a little thereof.

    13In thoughts from the visions of the night, when deep sleep falleth on men,

    14Fear came upon me, and trembling, which made all my bones to shake.

    15Then a spirit passed before my face; the hair of my flesh stood up:

    16It stood still, but I could not discern the form thereof: an image was before mine eyes, there was silence, and I heard a voice, saying,

    17Shall mortal man be more just than God? shall a man be more pure than his maker?

    18Behold, he put no trust in his servants; and his angels he charged with folly:

    1. Judah's Daughter profile image90
      Judah's Daughterposted 7 years ago in reply to this

      Okay, Ezekiel 1 does not mention a serpent or cherubim, but rather "four living beings" that had human form, four faces and four wings, legs straight with calf's hooves, gleaming like burnished bronze.  They also had human hands.  They had a faces of a lion, bull and eagle...nothing to tell me these are cherubim or snakes.

      Let's go back to cherubims in Genesis 3:24.  The Hebrew word is keruwb (ker-oob'); of uncert. der.; a cherub or imaginary figure:-cherub, [plur.] cherubims.  The cherubims are not mentioned in Revelation anywhere, nor are seraphims. Cherubim and Seraphim are not the same, as their definitions are completely different.

      Seraphims are only mentioned in Isaiah 6:2, 6 as follows:
      "Seraphim stood above Him, each having six wings; with two he covered his face, and with two he covered his feet, and with two he flew."  "Then one of the seraphim flew to me, and a burning coal in his hand which he had taken from the altar with tongs."  Ezekiel 1 may be talking about seraphims, but not cherubims.

      Satan (not Lucifer) is called the "god of this world" who blinds the minds of the unbelieving (2 Cor 4:4).

      Regarding the tree (Pharaoh), the king of Babylon (Isaiah 14) or the cherub (Ezekiel 28), they can't be the same thing.  I don't think Lucifer is the king of Tyre, as he's not mentioned in Ezekiel at all (only the anointed cherub).  Lucifer is only mentioned as the king of Babylon in Isaiah 14...so either he influences the king of Babylon, or he is the king of Babylon, the end-time antichrist that will claim to be God.  Remember that Isaiah is a PROPHET.

      For people to teach that Lucifer is Satan because the anointed cherub who guarded was mentioned as having fallen and having been in the Garden of Eden in Ezekiel (because the serpent was also in the Garden), doesn't seem logical.  They also teach Lucifer was an archangel, so cherubim and archangels are not the same either.

  3. Sanctus Vesania profile image59
    Sanctus Vesaniaposted 7 years ago

    I just stated earlier, from Strong's concordance.

    Also, the Seraphim and Cherubim aren't the only types of angels.

    They were the only two types of angels mentioned in the OT; but Paul, in his letters listed seven other groups.

    Thrones; dominions; virtues; powers; principalities; archangels; angels

    Colossians 1:16 (King James Version)

    16For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:



    Isaiah 6:2-3

    2Above it stood the seraphims: each one had six wings; with twain he covered his face, and with twain he covered his feet, and with twain he did fly.

    3And one cried unto another, and said, Holy, holy, holy, is the LORD of hosts: the whole earth is full of his glory.

    Revelation 4:6-8

    6And before the throne there was a sea of glass like unto crystal: and in the midst of the throne, and round about the throne, were four beasts full of eyes before and behind.

    7And the first beast was like a lion, and the second beast like a calf, and the third beast had a face as a man, and the fourth beast was like a flying eagle.

    8And the four beasts had each of them six wings about him; and they were full of eyes within: and they rest not day and night, saying, Holy, holy, holy, LORD God Almighty, which was, and is, and is to come.




    You are right about archangels and cherubim not being the same.  They are angels (celestial beings), but two different classes of them.

    1. Judah's Daughter profile image90
      Judah's Daughterposted 7 years ago in reply to this

      I did some more research.  Yes, though the word "seraphim" is not mentioned in Revelation, the six-winged creatures are (indicating seraphims).  Cherubims have four wings and seraphims have six.  They are not the same.  Anyhow, if Lucifer was a fallen cherubim, he could not be a serpent.  If the seraphim are serpent-like creatures, I don't even see seraphim in the Garden of Eden, nor Lucifer ever being equated to a seraphim.  The Devil maybe, but not Lucifer.

      Since the Dragon is mentioned to be in heaven making war, it would indicate the Dragon was a heavenly entity, but not an angel, though he took a third of the angels with him (his tail swept them away with him) and they were all cast down to the earth.

      I do wonder about the scripture that says Satan disguises himself as an angel of light, but this does not indicate Lucifer is that angel.  All angels are "light" as they are called "stars".  The fallen angels' leaders are named in the book of Enoch and Lucifer isn't named, let alone Heylel.  In fact, the name Lucifer was never in the Bible originally, only Heylel.

  4. Sanctus Vesania profile image59
    Sanctus Vesaniaposted 7 years ago

    The reason why seraphim don't appear in the garden of Eden, is because it appears that their job is to guard the throne of God.  The Cherubim is appears are described as watchmen, guards, and warriors.



    According to Cabell, Satan/the Dragon/Samael once belonged to the order of the Seraphim.




    I believe the angel of light thing is metaphorical, representing an angel of harmony, kindness, love, holiness, etc.

    A note about the angels being of light.  In several sources, another one of the big sins of the fallen angels is refusing to serve man; and the reason they give is always this.

    "Why should we; the children of fire; fall down before the children of clay?"

    The name of the leader of fallen angels in Enoch is "Satan-Helel"

    1. Judah's Daughter profile image90
      Judah's Daughterposted 7 years ago in reply to this

      Really?  I didn't see Heylel in my Book of Enoch.  Do you have a Chapter and Verse?  This would help me a great deal to get this part of my question resolved.

      Enoch VI:3 states, "And Semjaza, who was their leader..." and in verse 7 goes on to state the other 19 of 20 "Chiefs of 10" (the 200 that sinned) Semiazaz, Arakiba, Rameel, Kokabiel, Tamiel, Ramiel, Danel, Ezeqeel, Baraqijal, Asael, Armaros, Batarel, Ananel, Zaqiel, Samsapeel, Satarel, Turel, Jomjael, Sariel.

      Our Bible states the king of the abyss where the angels who sinned are incarcerated is named Abaddon in Hebrew, Apollyon in Greek (Destroyer) or angel of destruction.  He is the one who comes up out of the abyss and "goes to destruction" ~ the antichrist, the "son of perdition" (perdition means destruction).  Again, Heylel is not mentioned here either.

  5. Shaul Stein profile image60
    Shaul Steinposted 7 years ago

    maybe an explanation of how to break up quotes would be a good idea so we do not have to read everything 9 times.
    JD you have to use the "formating tips" by clicking on the bottom right corner of the response box.

    my humble opinion.smile

    1. Judah's Daughter profile image90
      Judah's Daughterposted 7 years ago in reply to this

      Experimenting :-)
      Experimenting again....

      Hey, I never even noticed that!  Thanks!! I'm jazzed!

  6. Shaul Stein profile image60
    Shaul Steinposted 7 years ago

    the book of Enoch should have remained in the bible.

    1. Judah's Daughter profile image90
      Judah's Daughterposted 7 years ago in reply to this

      I fully agree.  I have a hub called "Origin of the Nephilim" you might find interesting, Shaul.  Enoch reveals more about the spiritual realm than any book of the Bible and fills in a lot of "blanks".  Jasher is also missing from the Bible, yet referred to in 2 Samuel 1:18 and Joshua 10:13.  Where is it?  I think the remaining fallen angels that did not sin in the days of Noah might be responsible for this!!

  7. Sanctus Vesania profile image59
    Sanctus Vesaniaposted 7 years ago

    Probably because you're saying it's Heylel, when it's actually Helel.  It should be in Enoch I  86:1



    I'll have to look at my book for any more info.



    Things become ambiguous here.  The Bible says that an angel falls from Heaven with a key to the abyss, and it is this angel who unleashes Apollyon/Abaddon unto the world.   Now, some say this angel is 'Wormwood'.  There is a concept that Wormwood is the equavalent of Satan, so what we might have is Satan being the one to unleash Apollyon onto the world.


    As for the book of Enoch,  I tend to not read it so much, because a lot of people claim that when Enoch was taken up into Heaven he became the Metatron (voice of God) and is considered to be perhaps one of the highest angels.

    1. Judah's Daughter profile image90
      Judah's Daughterposted 7 years ago in reply to this

      My Book of Enoch is also called 1 Enoch.  I looked up LXXXVI (Chapter 86) and verse 1 has nothing to do with Helel?  I checked the index and found He'el (which may or may not be Heylel or Helel), but it's found in Chapter 82:20 and states as follows: "These are the names, and the orders, and the leaders of those heads of thousands: Gidaijal, Keel, and Heel, and the name of the head of a thousand which is added to them, Asfael: and the days of his dominion are at an end."  Here, we still don't see anything about him being Satan ~~ if this is even him...

  8. profile image0
    SirDentposted 7 years ago

    A quick question before anything else. When was the king of Babylon in heaven?

    1. Sanctus Vesania profile image59
      Sanctus Vesaniaposted 7 years ago in reply to this

      King of the physical Babylon - Never.

      King of the spiritual Babylon - before the fall.

    2. Judah's Daughter profile image90
      Judah's Daughterposted 7 years ago in reply to this

      That's a great question...all we do know, based on the context of the only verse he's mentioned in, is that he is the king of Babylon being taunted as to his fall, that he shook the nations, etc.  He may have been influenced by heylel (Lucifer), who also is accused of influencing the king of Tyre (as an anointed cherub from the Garden of Eden), and may very well be the spirit of the antichrist to come...I tend to agree with Sanctus, that he is fallen from heaven, but if an angel, one of the 1/3 that fell.  The Dragon is not proven to be an angel anywhere.  If he's the cherub in the Garden of Eden, he cannot be the serpent ~ hope you read up thus far as to why we've come to this conclusion.  Seraphims are serpent-like, but not cherubims.

  9. Shaul Stein profile image60
    Shaul Steinposted 7 years ago

    i fixed it, it's just a 1 question poll.
    it's on the forum
    http://hubpages.com/forum/topic/19854

  10. profile image0
    SirDentposted 7 years ago

    Since the king of Babylon was never in heaven, Physically speaking, then who was cast down from heaven?

    In the New Testament Jesus says He saw Satan fall as lightning from heaven.

    Imagine in your mind if you will that Isaiah 14:11 stops one chapter or subject and starts another at verse 12.

    We are to rightly divide the Word of Truth. We can really know nothing that is not revealed by the Spirit.

    This can be a starting place if you want to continue this discussion.

    1. Judah's Daughter profile image90
      Judah's Daughterposted 7 years ago in reply to this

      Revelation 12 calls him the Dragon, the Serpent of Old, the Devil and Satan, so yes Satan fell like lightning, but so did 1/3 of the angels.  No where can we prove Satan is indeed Lucifer.  It is assumed, but not provable.

      Verses 16 and 17 align Lucifer with the prophecies of the end-time antichrist, and verse 22 speaks of God's judgment upon Babylon.

  11. Sanctus Vesania profile image59
    Sanctus Vesaniaposted 7 years ago

    JD - I realized the problem.  The Satan-Helel thing was a theory by a certain scholar.  Looking at my book, it seems that the name of the leader is Azazel who is described (amongst other things) as being "that angel who rides the serpent"; "that terrible dragon with 12 wings"

    This might be the Lucifer, noting if your theory about Lucifer and Abaddon being the same.   According to the book of Enoch; God commanded the angel Raphael to bind Azazel and toss him into the Abyss.

    Azazel can't be Satan, because I believe that Satan didn't fall from Heaven until after the birth of Christ.

    1. Judah's Daughter profile image90
      Judah's Daughterposted 7 years ago in reply to this

      Well, if we could prove Azazel is Lucifer, then we know he rides the serpent, but is not the serpent.  The fallen angels are incarcerated in the deepest abyss (Tartaroo), and the Bible says Michael will bind Satan and cast him into the abyss, not Raphael.  Still seems the two are separate.

      Because the Dragon is also called the "serpent of old", he must have fallen at the time of Adam and Eve (or prior). Luke 10:18 and Revelation 12 are obviously talking about this event ~ after the fact.

  12. Sanctus Vesania profile image59
    Sanctus Vesaniaposted 7 years ago

    Michael binds Satan.   Raphael binds Azazel.



    I don't think it's after the fact.  Chapter 12 of Revelation describes a woman giving birth to a man child who will rule the nations with an iron scepter.  Likewise there is the dragon who is waiting for the woman to give birth so that he may devour the child.  As soon as the child is born though, he is taken up into Heaven to his throne in his Father's place.

    There is then a battle described in Heaven, to which the Dragon is cast down, and he takes 1/3 of the angels with him.  At this fall, he goes after the woman who brought forth the manchild, and attempts to destroy her.  When he can't do it (because she is protected) he goes after the remnant of her seed.

    This I believe, represents the following.

    The woman represents the nation of Israel, of which Jesus came from.  The Dragon - Satan, didn't want God's plan to work so set out to destroy Jesus in a number of ways (King Herod; the temptation; and the crucifixion.)  Satan fails, because Christ ascended into Heaven after his death and resurrection.

    At some point the battle in Heaven happens, and Satan is cast out.  Pissed off, he goes after the nation of Israel, but no matter what he does, he can't destroy her.  So, he decides to go after the remnant of her seed, the nations who kept and held the testimony of Jesus Christ.

    Also, in the OT, Satan and several evil spirits are described as being in Heaven.   Whenever Satan is accusing someone in front of God, he's in Heaven. 

    Also there's a story where God wanting Ahab to go into battle at Ramothgilead and fall.  He asks the heavenly host, of which there are several on his right, and to the left.  There are angels or spirits giving ideas, until one steps up, and says "I will do it."  when God asked how, this spirit said, "I will become a lying tongue in the mouth of all his prophets."  God then approves of this plan, and sends this spirit out.

    Not only that, but this spirit was even allowed to take hold of the tongue of Micaiah who was a prophet of God.

    1 Kings 22:27-28

    27And say, Thus saith the king, Put this fellow in the prison, and feed him with bread of affliction and with water of affliction, until I come in peace.

    28And Micaiah said, If thou return at all in peace, the LORD hath not spoken by me. And he said, Hearken, O people, every one of you.

    Earlier, Micaiah had said,

    1 Kings 22: 14-15

    14And Micaiah said, As the LORD liveth, what the LORD saith unto me, that will I speak.

    15So he came to the king. And the king said unto him, Micaiah, shall we go against Ramothgilead to battle, or shall we forbear? And he answered him, Go, and prosper: for the LORD shall deliver it into the hand of the king.

    It would seem that a number of evil spirits were still in Heaven, still being under the service of God.  It's not until the NT that we here no longer of these evil spirits being used by God.

    1. Judah's Daughter profile image90
      Judah's Daughterposted 7 years ago in reply to this

      When the "sons of God" accused Job and Satan was among them, we must consider Enoch, the seventh son from Adam who interceded for the fallen angels in the days of Noah (meaning they had already fallen).  I personally read Job and see that it's the religious leaders that are constantly accusing Job, and perhaps coming before God was through prayer, influenced by Satan, but that's just my opinion.

      It was the serpent who tempted Eve in the Garden and Revelation 12 specifically states the dragon is the "serpent of old".  Obviously, he was on the earth then.  We can agree to disagree on this ~ it's not imperative.

      1. Sanctus Vesania profile image59
        Sanctus Vesaniaposted 7 years ago in reply to this

        I don't recall the sons of God accusing Job.  What I recall is them having an audience with God; Satan waltzes in, and him and God start talking.   I read Job, and I see it as a story about how God could/can use Satan to test our faith.  A lot of people, if faced with the same situation as Job, would have cursed God.

        Verily, but other angels, Holy angels are said to go down to earth.  Gabriel being one of them.

        You're right, we may have to agree to disagree.

  13. profile image0
    SirDentposted 7 years ago

    Let's go back into Ezekiel for a few minutes.

    Eze 28:12  Son of man, take up a lamentation upon the king of Tyrus, and say unto him, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Thou sealest up the sum, full of wisdom, and perfect in beauty.

    Eze 28:13  Thou hast been in Eden the garden of God; every precious stone was thy covering, the sardius, topaz, and the diamond, the beryl, the onyx, and the jasper, the sapphire, the emerald, and the carbuncle, and gold: the workmanship of thy tabrets and of thy pipes was prepared in thee in the day that thou wast created. 


    The king of Tyrus was in the garden of Eden. This is God speaking to Ezekiel. We know that Satan was there because he deceived Eve.

    Once man sinned the first sin, the dominion over the Earth no longer was his, but it in fact was handed over to Satan. We can go to the New Testament and see where Satan told Jesus that he would give Him all the kingdoms of the earth if He would worship him.

    According to what the Word says, Satan is the king of Tyre. He is also the king of Babylon.

    He is called the prince of darkness, prince of the world, etc. . . He has people in high places for we fight not against flesh and blood, but against principalities and powers.

    Finally, anyone who is not led of God, is led of Satan.

    The book of Enoch has been quoted here many times, but yet it is not part of the Bible. Any book that was not part of the Bible should not really be used to confirm or deny anything that is written. From what I can remember, the book of Enoch was written around 200 BC. That figure may be off a little because I am trying to remember it instead of searching it out on the net.

    Psa 1:1  Blessed is the man that walketh not in the counsel of the ungodly, nor standeth in the way of sinners, nor sitteth in the seat of the scornful.


    When we walk according to what the ungodly say, we are in error. The book of Enoch was written by ungodly men and/or women. It does not agree with the rest of the Word of God and should be discarded.

    1. Judah's Daughter profile image90
      Judah's Daughterposted 7 years ago in reply to this

      While I believe you are also led of God, so am I; you have stopped your quoting of Ezekiel in verse 13.  Verse 14 states, "You were the anointed cherub who covers, and I placed you there (would this be Eden?)  Were not cherubim placed in Eden?  The Dragon, the Serpent of Old, the Devil and Satan are always mentioned together.  The serpent was in the Garden of Eden (Satan) and so was the anointed cherub.  Cherubim are not serpent-like (just look up the definition).  Seraphim are, but are not in the Garden of Eden.  You can check out Messianic Jews and other Christians that have been questioning this as well, and to make such a statement that a truthful biblical study, challenging this church teaching that may very well be false or in error, is not of Satan ~ for it's challenging TRUTH to be told, not misinterpretation of the scripture that's merely been accepted as truth for generations.

      Regarding Enoch, it was indeed included in the Bible for 500 years.  While man removed it, as they did the book of Jasher, which is referenced in our current Bible in both Joshua 10:13 and 2 Samuel 1:18, where is it?  It does not contradict the Bible, in fact, it answers to the Bible and confirms the Bible.  Many misinterpretations have happened because of these missing books.  I choose to accept it as canon, because it was and still is.

      1. profile image0
        SirDentposted 7 years ago in reply to this

        I didn't think it necessary to quote more than what i did. Cherubims are still angels, just as Satan was once an angel. If you recall in Genesis, the serpent wes a different form before God cursed it.

        I like to take things slowly with little info at a time. It is much easier that way to understand and see.

        In your own mind and heart you have to decide if you are challenging tradition or if you are challenging God.

        1. Judah's Daughter profile image90
          Judah's Daughterposted 7 years ago in reply to this

          The only thing we know about the curse to the serpent is that he would "go on his belly" and his "head would be crushed" (check out Leviathan in Job 41, compare it to Psalm 74:14 and Revelation 13), so the sepent must have had legs.  I am not challenging God, for I am totally using the Bible and challenging you to do the same.  Rightly divide it and prove that Lucifer is indeed Satan.  Thus far, you've quoted Ezekiel 28, which has to do with a cherubim in Eden, and also Isaiah 14, which has to do with the king of Babylon...which, because Isaiah is a prophet, could be referencing the antichrist, the king of end-time Babylon.  Read my hub about "Lucifer: the Spirit of Antichrist" to show the alignment of the characteristics and practices of the prophesied antichrist.  He and Satan are cast into the Lake of Fire a thousand years apart, so they can't be the same.

          1. profile image0
            SirDentposted 7 years ago in reply to this

            Even though I don't belive you mean to self promote your hubs here, it sure looks likes that is the reason for this discussion to me. Of course you have not been the first to do this. I have seen many many others in the course of my time here at HubPages.

            It is best to simply state what you want and let the rest go.

            1. Judah's Daughter profile image90
              Judah's Daughterposted 7 years ago in reply to this

              I could place my study results here, but they are better outlined and explained in my hub.  Compare the following scriptures for yourself:

              Compare Isaiah 14:12 with Rev 22:16 "morning star" to "morning star" (which indicates antichrist).

              2 Thes 2:7 with 1 John 4:3 (spirit of "lawlessness" and "antichrist")

              Isaiah 14:6, 13-14, 16 (characteristics of the king of Babylon)

              Daniel 11:3, 16, 33 & 36 (characteristics of prophesied king of Babylon, the antichrist)

              2 Thes. 2:3-4 (characteristics of prophesied antichrist again)

              Rev 13:2, 5-7 and 12 (characteristics of the prophesied antichrist again).

              Now compare the following regarding the king of the abyss who is the antichrist that goes to destruction (destruction means perdition ~ the "son of perdition")

              Revelation 11:7

              Revelation 17:8 and 11

              2 Thes 2:3 (KJV) "son of perdition" (NAS) "lawlessness and son of destruction"

              Isaiah 14:15 Lucifer is "cast down to Sheol" (Greek word Hades, which includes the deepest abyss of Hades, Tartaroo).  Note the dragon and his angels were cast down to the earth, never Sheol.

              Also, do a word study on dragon, and you will find Job 41 is cross-referenced, and is speaking of Leviathan who in Psalm 74:14 is prophesied to have his heads crushed.  This is also the curse of the serpent in the Garden (Genesis 3:15), and the beast that comes up out of the sea (also the Dragon who empowers the antichrist) has seven heads (Revelation 13).  This is more viable biblically than Lucifer being Satan.  He appears to be the antichrist and is cast into the Lake of Fire a thousand years apart from Satan (at either side of the millennial reign of Christ).

  14. XTASIS profile image59
    XTASISposted 7 years ago

    How can you know so much?! It's amazing !

    1. Judah's Daughter profile image90
      Judah's Daughterposted 7 years ago in reply to this

      Days of studying, dear friend.  I am hungry to know the truth and don't just take any church's teaching as fact anymore.  There's too many false prophets out there, and they are also in the church!!  Judgment will begin in the church, as prophesied.  I set out to prove Lucifer was Satan, and I could not.  Instead, I found the church teaching to be highly questionable and possibly absolutely in error.

    2. Shaul Stein profile image60
      Shaul Steinposted 7 years ago in reply to this

      well if we listened to you long enough we would come to that conclusion as well.
      we all know something do we not?

      1. Judah's Daughter profile image90
        Judah's Daughterposted 7 years ago in reply to this

        As long as one studies and shows reference material to back up their conclusions, it is knowledge.  We all have knowledge from various sources; the most important one should be the Bible :-)  1 Timothy 6:20-21 comes to mind, "O Timothy, guard what has been entrusted to you, avoiding worldly and empty chatter and the opposing arguments of what is falsely called 'knowledge'--which some have professed and thus gone astray from the faith. Grace be with you."

  15. Sanctus Vesania profile image59
    Sanctus Vesaniaposted 7 years ago

    This, I have to agree with.  It might have remained in the canon if it weren't for the fact that in one of the books of Enoch, it's written that Enoch became the angel Metatron.  There's several lore about this angel, but perhaps most notable is that Metatron is also considered the Messiah.  Not only that, but he is called "the mini YHWH"

    I'm sorry, but Enoch was not Jesus Christ.

    1. Judah's Daughter profile image90
      Judah's Daughterposted 7 years ago in reply to this

      That does sound a bit weird...would you please provide the chapter and verses so I can look this up?  But, regarding the fallen angels, it seems to align with Bible canon.  As I said, Jasher was also taken out, yet is referenced in out Bible in Joshua 10:13 and 2 Samuel 1:18.

      1. Sanctus Vesania profile image59
        Sanctus Vesaniaposted 7 years ago in reply to this

        It's in 3 Enoch, and I don't know if that's the same book of Enoch as you have.

        3 Enoch 3:1  apparently whewre he is described as "Angel Prince of the Divine Presence"

        The myth actually comes because, in Gen: When Enoch was taken up into Heaven, they believed that no man could enter Heaven, so as such Enoch was transformed into the angel Metatron.  Perhaps more bizarre is the myth that Elijah was transformed into the angel Sandalphon.

        Myth proclaims that Sandalphon is Metatron's younger brother.

        I'm one not to buy this, for a number of reasons.  That in time the saints will be higher than the angels; thus I cannot imagine Enoch or Elijah, who were once human, being transformed into angels considering that in the end the angels will have to serve man.

        I think that the book of Enoch must've been taken out for a good reason.

        1. Judah's Daughter profile image90
          Judah's Daughterposted 7 years ago in reply to this

          I've never heard of any additions to the Book of Enoch (or Enoch 1).  I agree that man does not become angels, but are "as the angels" in regard to marriage, as the Bible says.  I wouldn't doubt that people made more and more books of Enoch as a marketing scheme...I'd have to research this with credible sources to find out for sure.

  16. Sanctus Vesania profile image59
    Sanctus Vesaniaposted 7 years ago

    Yet, God sent the king of Babylon after the king of Tyre.  He sent king Nebuchadnezzar after king Hirum.  Reading the Bible shows that these are the two kings that God is referring to.  So I don't know how God could send Satan after Satan.  Satan after himself.

    Also,  chapter 31 of Ezekiel describes the Pharoe of Egypt as a tree in the garden of Eden.  You cannot look at me with a straight face, and go, "Why yes, the king of Pharoe is a tree, and is Satan!  Satan was once a tree!"

  17. profile image0
    SirDentposted 7 years ago

    I have read quite a bit of the book of Enoch. I have also read your hub JD on the fallen angels and nephilim. I imagine a creature two miles tall would be able to stay out of danger during the flood. He would simply have to climb to the top of the highest mountain and stay there.

    Of course then you have the doctrine that fallen angels had sex with women which Jesus Himself said was not possible in the New Testament. How much of the book of Enoch has to be false before it is considered ungodly?

    Also since Metatron was mentioned by Sanctus, I wonder if you know anything about Transformers. It was made into a movie, but was originally a cartoon. There was one of the decepticons named Megatron. See the resemblance in the name? It is all about the New Age movement. Good v Evil, but without God in the midst. This has been the essence of the New Age movement ever since the days of old.

    If 1% was false, would the book of Enoch then be dismissed?

    1. Judah's Daughter profile image90
      Judah's Daughterposted 7 years ago in reply to this

      We're going to focus on just using the Bible to prove that Lucifer is Satan ~ fair enough?  Santus and I discussed the Book of Enoch, but it was not intended to use in this forum.  Even the Book of Enoch does not state Lucifer as Satan (as a side bar).  Also, if you read my hub on Lucifer instead of the Nephilim, you might be more enlightened as the inductive study results that started this question to begin with ~~ just a recommendation.  The Book of Enoch is not included in my study, only the Bible.

      1. profile image0
        SirDentposted 7 years ago in reply to this

        I did read that one also. I just didn't comment on it.

        1. Judah's Daughter profile image90
          Judah's Daughterposted 7 years ago in reply to this

          So, I can assume you didn't have an absolute biblical argument?  You are welcome to post your biblical proof here.  This is not a matter of salvation, but I am wondering why such a doctrine is taught as biblical fact when it's not provable when tested as I have done and so have countless others that are Christians (Jewish Christians as well).

          We can refute teachings of other faiths easily, but we are not willing to test our own?  The Bible is truth and must be taught consistently.  This doctrine did not stand up to the test, as I was set out to prove Lucifer was indeed Satan, and could not do so.  It was such a thorough study, that I am challenging the church to prove otherwise.  It is a test of what people wish to merely accept as truth, or not, because the Bible doesn't support it.  We focus on Satan being cast out of heaven, but we don't focus on the angels that went with him.  We just think all fallen angels are Satan, when indeed they are not.  They are fallen angels.  Nor, can we assume Satan was ever an angel, but a Dragon or Serpent-like creature as Job 41 describes.  His TAIL swept away a third of the angels (Rev 12: 4).  Do angels have tails?  I don't ever see that anywhere.

  18. Shaul Stein profile image60
    Shaul Steinposted 7 years ago

    this one XTASIS can be found making totally random posts and then leaves and they are usually insincere, rude and have no bearing on the topic. big_smile

    1. Judah's Daughter profile image90
      Judah's Daughterposted 7 years ago in reply to this

      Hmmm ~ I didn't check him out ~~ but it's good he stopped by.  We need some more participants, but it's good that we have a few thus far ~~ the topic is interesting.  Glad to see all of you here.

  19. Sanctus Vesania profile image59
    Sanctus Vesaniaposted 7 years ago

    Something to add.  In Revelation 9; John mentions a fifth angel sounding his trumpet, and a star falling from Heaven.  Star = angel, and looking at the Strong's concordance the term 'falling' here seems to denote a fall from a high position, or fall from grace if you will.  This angel is given the key (authority) to open up the bottomless pit, and unleash the locusts, and Abaddon.

    I feel that Lucifer (Helel) is this angel, who opens up the bottomless pit.  Abaddon/Appolyon appears to me more as some sort of demonic general over an army than he does a leader or ruler over the world. 

    If we look at the locusts as helicopters/an army riding helicopters over the world, then it would make sense that their leader would be a general.  A General who is over an army, but still has to obey orders from the superior.

    1. Judah's Daughter profile image90
      Judah's Daughterposted 6 years ago in reply to this

      Okay, so it's been 14 months...and what I've come to learn since the last posting is that Lucifer's name was never in the original Bible canon until 400 years ago, inserted by Catholicism.  It's a Latin proper name inserted into the Hebrew text, when there was no 'name' of this 'star of the morning, son of the dawn' in the original text.  I believe Abaddon/Apolyon is indeed the name of the Antichrist, for Revelation identifies him as such.  He was the one Isaiah was prophesying about in Isaiah 14. It is Abaddon/Apollyon who kills the two witnesses.

      1. Cagsil profile image59
        Cagsilposted 6 years ago in reply to this

        And you revived this dead thread to post that reply? roll

 
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