After reading scripture, I realized that there was an angel named Satanel who was a regular angel while there was also Lucifer one of the nine original archangels. Also, I noticed that Lucifer is much like that of a demiurge and very similar to Prometheus, and from a Gnostic view point it was the demiurge who betrayed the king of the angels (or gods) the Lord of Hosts through creating mankind. Interesting fact: In the Pantheon it was Prometheus who created mankind with the help of others and stolen fire from Zeus. Not until late into the story of Jesus Christ is Satan introduced in the forest.
From the only mention of Lucifer in the Bible, Isaiah 14, he is not even an angel. In context, he, rather, they are just now upon the earth as 1% of the 1% who are "hell bent" on controlling the entire population and at this present time are "to big to jail" by any government for their corruption. They are the ones responsible for the world's state by using the threat of the United States' nuclear arsenal to control the governments their money can't buy. But, according to that prophecy, they will find themselves just like any other man which suggests they will eventually be jailed.
You ARE joking, yes? "their money can't buy"......that entity does not exist, my idealistic, intelligent friend; U.S.A. OWNS and CONTROLS THE WORLD. LOVE IT, LIVE IT, BE IT. THANKS FOR YOUR TIME.
JPB,
No, I am not joking, I'm serious. People who want to control others will sell themselves to people with enough money to present the illusion of power {we are conditioned to believe money is power}. It only takes a few thousands of dollars to buy them. Look at how police are bought only by their salaries to be brutal to people when they are supposed to "protect and serve" us. They get no extra money for being corrupt yet they are. Look at all the stupid stuff people do on TV for money, so no, I'm serious.
Excellent reply; "absolute power corrupts, absolutely," may show that you are not alone in time with your thinking. The world has come to the time of the best unification: just watch and enjoy. Peace.
Absolute power does not corrupt, the illusion of power being a substance like money will corrupt absolutely. Absolute power comes with wisdom, knowing the purpose for all things and accepting them because they are, and the wise works to ensure all things are for the benefit of everyone equally, therefore, it isn't corrupt at all.
I agree. Continue as you please, as redundant as that statement is, for you will shed light for those in darkness. Truth. Excellent.
The connection was initially drawn by rabbis performing midrash, and whatever they say tends to go, so...probably.
(That is, the mentioning of Lucifer in Isaiah and the appearance of Satan in Job were concluded to be the same being.)
Lucifer was a man, the King of Babylon, Nebuchadnezzar. Isaiah called him shining one to mock him by drawing a parallel with the Canaanite god, the son of the goddess of the dawn, who also unexpectedly and dramatically fell from a lofty position. Lucifer is an early example of Jewish humour.
Lucifer’s fall is described in two key Old Testament chapters—Ezekiel 28 and Isaiah 14. Let’s briefly look at both of these.
It would seem from the context of Ezekiel 28 that the first ten verses of this chapter are dealing with a human leader. Then, starting in verse 11 and on through verse 19, Lucifer is the focus of discussion.
What is the rationale for the conclusion that these latter verses refer to the fall of Lucifer? Whereas the first ten verses in this chapter speak about the ruler of Tyre (who was condemned for claiming to be a god though he was just a man), the discussion moves to the king of Tyre starting in verse 11. Many scholars believe that though there was a human “ruler” of Tyre, the real “king” of Tyre was Satan, for it was he who was ultimately at work in this anti-God city and it was he who worked through the human ruler of the city.
Some have suggested that these verses may actually be dealing with a human king of Tyre who was empowered by Satan. Perhaps the historic king of Tyre was a tool of Satan, possibly even indwelt by him. In describing this king, Ezekiel also gives us glimpses of the superhuman creature, Satan, who was using, if not indwelling, him.
Now, there are things that are true of this “king” that—at least ultimately—cannot be said to be true of human beings. For example, the king is portrayed as having a different nature from man (he is a cherub, verse 14); he had a different position from man (he was blameless and sinless, verse 15); he was in a different realm from man (the holy mount of God, verses 13,14); he received a different judgment from man (he was cast out of the mountain of God and thrown to the earth, verse 16); and the superlatives used to describe him don’t seem to fit that of a normal human being (“full of wisdom,” “perfect in beauty,” and having “the seal of perfection,” verse 12 NASB).
Our text tells us that this king was a created being and left the creative hand of God in a perfect state (Ezekiel 28:12,15). And he remained perfect in his ways until iniquity was found in him (verse 15b). What was this iniquity? We read in verse 17, “Your heart became proud on account of your beauty, and you corrupted your wisdom because of your splendor.” Lucifer apparently became so impressed with his own beauty, intelligence, power, and position that he began to desire for himself the honor and glory that belonged to God alone. The sin that corrupted Lucifer was self-generated pride.
Apparently, this represents the actual beginning of sin in the universe—preceding the fall of the human Adam by an indeterminate time. Sin originated in the free will of Lucifer in which—with full understanding of the issues involved—he chose to rebel against the Creator.
This mighty angelic being was rightfully judged by God: “I threw you to the earth” (Ezekiel 28:18). This doesn’t mean that Satan had no further access to heaven, for other Scripture verses clearly indicate that Satan maintained this access even after his fall (Job 1:6-12; Zechariah 3:1,2). However, Ezekiel 28:18 indicates that Satan was absolutely and completely cast out of God’s heavenly government and his place of authority (Luke 10:18).
http://www.christianity.com/theology/th … 57519.html
It's hard to take Ezekiel 28 seriously, however, because God claims Tyre would be destroyed and never found again. We found its ruins, so somebody destroyed it, but...we found its ruins.
The word lucifer isnt even Hebrew, it is latin. The king of babylon did fall, but he wasn't an angel.
When reading whole of Isaiah 14, the only place Lucifer is found in the cannoned Bible, we find Lucifer isn't even an angel, they {it's a group of man} are man who are wanting to control the whole world as the 1% of the 1% are attempting to do today. That 1% or the 1% are attempting to establish the space station for living, they believe themselves above everything in earth and heaven because of their large sums of money, but they are going to fall and become like the rest of us, just people. That's who I say Lucifer is.
What IF ? neither and both arer real?
What if ...... everything in my life is as real as that which you produced.
But yours isn't IN MY world and mine aint in yours; And that is why I can't see everything thats in yours. YOU CAN'T SEE everything that is in mine. So quit asking to see it. Show me yours ant maybe I'll show mine.
What if' ...... Atheist and Theist could agree to disagree about this ?????
WHAT IF EVERYTHING IS TRUE ??????????????????? Don't say you know it aint!
Everything is true depending on how they are interpreted. Spoken language has its limits, it always depends on interpretation so once man, using the things made by man and nature, are able to interpret things as a reality instead of based on right and wrong, good/evil, good/devil and the like they see how even lies are interpreted into a fact.
Impossible.
Theism of any kind = God(s) exist(s).
Atheism = There is/are no god(s).
Both cannot be true at the same time.
Lucifer, Satan and the Devil
http://www.markbeast.com/satan/lucifer-satan-devil.htm
That nicely summarises the Christianism view, but that does not make it true. For example the whole Lucifer beautiful music playing angel that was cast out of heaven for being a proud naughty boy account does not exist in the bible, but was made up by the Church in the Dark Ages by stringing together a set of unrelated and misunderstood bible verses. I would suggest that anybody who really wants to know who this satan character is would do well to look at the Jewish view.
For the Christian the issue is not proof but rather faith. God expects the CHRISTIAN to trust that the Bible is his word and we either as a Christian believe the Bible Or Not. He does not look for us to rewrite the Bible to suit our views.
Your problem is that you read the bible as you are and don't read the bible as it was meant to be read. Another fact is that some bible versions were written to suit doctrine. The KJV is a good example.
First of all mankind is flawed and because of that we can expect mankind to get things wrong and there is plenty of human history to prove that. Now you can say the Bible was written by humans so we can expect it to be flawed but flawed are not if people choose to believe in other human beings and their frailties how is it that the Christian cannot do likewise?
How is it that I have a problem simply because I don't agree with you?
Some people are very honest, the only problem is that they extrapolate themselves to others.
If man understood the Bible's beginning, do not eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, we would know man are not flawed. It's man's flaw in not seeking the spirit of the words but accepting the letter of the words which is our problem, Span Star.
The bible is a book of over 70 books written by men inspired by God. It is perfectly written in its original Hebrew and Greek language. When translating the bible, it is only normal to get false translations leading to false beliefs. Isaiah 14:12 is a perfect example. The Hebrew word הֵילֵל was translated in Latin Lucifer when in fact it means "Howl You"!
I disagree with you, Sword of ManticorE, about the KJV but I'll not go there here.
I only need to use one word in the KJV to prove me right. The word is "hell"!
That's only a metaphor anyway, so is the lake of fire, so I still disagree.
Of course you disagree, your a kjv believing Christian.
It is the interpretation of what's written and not the version, but I'm not going there on here, Sword of MaticorE.
The metaphor of both hell and the lake of fire represent the purifying process of getting our minds rid of believing in evil and good. Fire eliminate the doss of metal ore leaving it pure substance, thus, the discontentment of hell and the painful process of the lake of fire are designed to eliminate the doss of good and evil and leave us seeing the pure reality and purpose for everything.
I get that when it comes to the lake of fire, as the word torment in Rev 20:10 in Greek is basanisthEsontai. A verb to the noun basanos. A basanos is Greek for touchstone. A touchstone tests the purity and quality of precious metals. I believe that this fire in Rev 20:10 is the same fire Paul spoke about in 1Cor 3:10-15. In other words, God Himself (Heb 12:29).
That is also what the flame on the sword in Genesis 3:24 represents.
I suppose you do realize the sword, in Genesis 3:24, is for cutting us away from all attachments?
Span Star,
That comes from Christians' misunderstanding that faith is the process of finding evidence and substance to support unseen hopes and beliefs (Hebrews 11:1). What you just said is nor putting precepts upon precepts as Isaiah 28:9-10 tells us we who are spiritually taught will learn to do. The Bible tells us man are to trust it after reasoning with the lord (Isaiah 1:18) had written and spirit will guide us into finding the truth of what is written.
Christians' selected reading of the book and not questioning what appears as contradictions is the reason for the state of the world today. They take it literally rather than as the Metaphors, Allegories. Parables and Symbol/types (MAPS) that most of its written words are.
Ok, then what is your understanding of Luke 16: The parable of the rich man and Lazerus?
Are you asking ME(as in I'm your direct object in the sentence); if so, both are eloquent representations of a "grander purpose" well documented. Truth is extant, merely guised in Hierarchy. Social status being status quo at the writing, err, "inspiration" of these epochal anecdotes, one may infer peer pressure as a root.
Speak English so all can understand, you sound too much like an educated fool.
I did, and I am; shall I speak down to you? Your choice, as is all humanity....:-D It is clear, my meaning, my friend; see without dislike, either of others or self.
Funny, that's you! YOU LEFT ME NO CHOICE as to response: "speak English," YOUR quote. Fine, friend, English I did speak, so your next purchase ought to be a dictionary! Arrogance! Funny, you.
Abraham's bosom, where Lazarus goes, represents a time when most of man's sorrows are over here on earth; the lake of fire represents a life of continued suffering. Both are to take place in future incarnations, Lazarus will become a purified mind preparing to go into everlasting life while the rich man will have to suffer through many more incarnations until his mind is purified from the belief in evil and good and before going into everlasting life.
That is an excellent response. Though I disagree with it somewhat. You defiantly seek truth. I have another understanding friend.
The parable is about the end of the OC and the coming age of the NC. Christ told the pharisees who received the blessings given to them by God would end and be given to the gentile nations. The rich man is symbolic for the Jews of Judea and Lazerus is symbolic for the gentile nations. It even goes deeper with the use of Hades and the flame. It would require a lot of writing to explain all the details.
Does OC=old christ and NC=new christ? I'v never seen them used before.
Well-said; your pure innocence( excuse my redundancy..)says all. Peace is yours, my friend.
The0NatureBoy,
Metaphors of the creation of mankind which is to say that there is no doubt some metaphors in the Bible but things which we find absolutely incomprehensible as being possible does not in and of itself mean it is a metaphor example: if a God can create a universe how then can he not do those things which our limited mind will not allow us to accept?
Even god is a metaphor if you were to recognize god is the opposite of devil and Revelation (20:14) say the devil will be cast into the lake of fire, therefore god will be also.
Of you proclaiming that God is a metaphor then you simply send you an atheist.
I'm not the one proclaiming it, it's the very Bible everyone use to believe in god that's doing it. The virgin birth prophecy, Isaiah 7:14-22, suggest it's a metaphor also once one comprehends the actual interpretation of it. So, Yes, I am atheist because the book suggest I should be if I want to be "saved" or survive (Matthew 24:13) the termination of civilization.
Luck? No such animal. All one needs to do is comprehend what is written, like the following.
When I recognize Jesus' words concerning his relationship to god were ...
"I said I am the son of god;"
"I and my father are one;"
"I am in the father and the father is in me;"
"When you see me you see the father;"
"I do what I see my father do"
and on the cross he cried
"my god, my god, why hath thou forsaken me"
when he saw his life-force leaving his body, I realize Jesus' god was his own life-force so why should I believe something other than what he did? If Jesus could obtain the powers he had by realizing that his life-force was his god then I should be able to do the same. It's as his words in John 14:12 say, we who believe in him shall do what he did and more. So I believe what he had to say about god causes me to expect to get the powers he demonstrated.
Interesting that that's what you get from those passages......
So, what powers are you desirous of, and what would be your intentions in using them, if you had them?
Jesus had "dominion powers" provided all man in Genesis 1 which is what was killed out of us during the Noah flood.
Don't you mean taken away from us after we (Adam and Eve) sinned in the Garden?........ they were banished from the Garden, remember, and God told them the consequences of their sin.
Where'd you get the idea that the great flood took away "dominion powers"??
Brenda, I mean killed out of all man during the flood of Noah. Adam and Eve's being banished from living in nature {the garden} was the beginning of the sunrise of this civilization (read Genesis 1:14B) and the flood was all man, "sons of god being Genesis 1's man and daughters of man being the descendants of Adam, had those dominion powers killed out of everyone except one tribe of Asians, one of Natives of the Americas, one of Africans and one of Europeans that Noah and his sons' families represents.
Has it occurred to you friend that the Lake of Fire is possibly God? (Heb 12:29)
Why would a god want to devour those without faith?
A pagan god maybe wouldn't, but the living God will not lose one, because His love never fails (1Cor 13:8).
My understanding of Hebrews 12:29, based on my experiences since I've been reborn, is during the early years after my new conception and deep into my new adolescence the continuous changing of my understanding consumes almost all of my time. Even on my job, during my gestating, my mind was focused on learning things of the spirit, I was working on "automatic pilot" because my thoughts were on the comprehension of life I was obtaining. That is what I experienced the consuming fire to be.
Good point, yet I believe that the fire in Rev 20, Heb 12:29 and 1Cor 3:10-15 are the same consuming fire.
Sort of, Sword. The fire 1 Cor. 3:10-15 talks about is more like the lake of fire, consuming those whose supposed spiritual work is for material gain and not everlasting life. Verse 15 makes that clear because it say they will be saved, only not this end-time. That verse means they will have to go through the lake of fire {another civilization} again or several civilizations before they go into everlasting life. Those who go into everlasting life at, lets say, this civilization's end built their foundation of truth but those who will have to endure at least one more civilization built it on society's tradition or material goods.
That's the way I read it.
For the Christian faith often means blind faith in what they have been told the bible means and the doctrines proceeding from their chosen brand of church. Christians need to focus on proof, biblical proof. The bible was effectively rewritten by the Church when it made up the satan myths that persist to today.
I suppose you just have to place faith in the god within to work as a disciple of your own personal Christ and the Christ within others. Christus is more than a man who allegedly died on a cross, and all too often the teachings of that carpenter becomes lost in translation because of particular organized religions void of entheogenic revelations and sacraments. Christus is more of a state of mind in the absence of the kingdom of heaven on Earth. Which is why you must press on to establish your own personal covenant with The Lord of Hosts prior to believing in whatever a pope or other clergyman tells you to believe in. On the most prime and fundamental level Faith starts with believing in yourself and a mission to bring peace and blessings to the greater good.
If we are good as we think we all, as we say we are why then did God say:
King James Bible (Cambridge Ed.)
<A Psalm of David.>> The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God. They are corrupt, they have done abominable works, there is none that doeth good.
Why is it that Jesus had to say:
John 8:44: “Ye are of your father the Devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it”.
If we belief we alone are good enough to enter into the gates of heaven why then Must we accept Jesus sacrifice on the cross and changed the way we have been doing things-if we're already good enough?
This is only one version of the truth. I have personal doubts that a person truly filled with the light of a god would turn away from the offspring of corrupt individuals when those said offspring are ready to give themselves in service to the highest of causes. Such a cause could be returning to the Tree of Life or feeding the impoverished.
Forgive me for what I am going to type; you ALL are joking, yes? If any of you are confusing this debacle of words a "debate," look up that word. Quotes from The Bible are proof of literally quite little, as are "hearsay" testaments from random, equally viable(as a source compared to The Bible) people. The equalizer? Both sides of that = sign are quotes by and from PEOPLE. Think; we are born with that capacity; distinguish vanity from truth, and ye shall truly be free, my friends. Peace and Love to all. A thought....why are people so quick to accept that we are born "bad," or with "sin;" and Christians rejoice in guilt? Think tools, as in being used, think politics, think control. Fear. We are taught to fear.
JPB,
Just because you see no wisdom in the metaphors, allegories, parables and symbol/types of scripture doesn't mean there isn't any there, even things like Goldie Locks The Three Bears have interpretable truths in them. Check out the following interpretation and tell me if it does or doesn't fit today's history.
Locks represent hair, gold hair represent Europeans; Papa Bear representing the father of civilization, Asians, who Europeans are still finding it hard to control; Mama Bear are Native Americans who almost became extinct because of their soft heartiness and Baby Bear are Africans who were just the correct consistence to be exploited, even to this day Africa is controlled by them and Blacks in all European controlled areas of the earth subject themselves to them except in Australia (see how Isaiah 45:14 is saying the same thing about Blacks).
Wonderful! We both recall the Greeks thought that ALL ARTISTS speak truth, as their words are art itself. Any song, movie or eighth grade essay has a theme; perspective provides depth and dimension. Truth is everywhere for the truthful; we see what we choose to.
Theonatureboy, you are a skilled reader; I will go further and say that you probably would agree to use 'Love" as an alternative for " God."All sarcasm aside, I think we see the same. Druidic, you are. Peace and love, friend.
I prefer to use "one's own life-force" for the term god. John 1:1-3 say, in the beginning was the "verbal means of explaining" {word's definition} and the "verbal means of explaining" was with god and the "verbal means of explaining" was god, all things were made by {with} a "verbal means of explaining" and without the "verbal means of explaining" there was nothing made that was made. Since we generally only recognize man as the user of words and the term "man" means "mind able to comprehend all things," then, once any man comprehend all things of this plane they are god since all knowledge is in each life-force. Our flesh has to learn what is in our life-force which makes the body to be "the son of god" because it has to learn from the life-force, which is also what education means.
LOVE or INDIFFERENCE
Love, a word which cannot be defined,
not what you do but a frame of mind;
yet it does create an effect
few are ever able to reject.
It does not build empires by setting boundary lines,
neither does it stake out claiming things as mine.
It's not selfish to any at all,
not to rich nor poor, nor great nor small.
It's not bias in any light,
not to red nor yellow nor black nor white;
but it does make every living thing your brother,
spirit your father and the earth your nursing mother.
Peace be unto you also, friend.
In the most literal of fashions, I do not believe that one needs to believe in any of the words written down by those responsible for the inception of the Bible in order to find the Christus within. Perhaps the problem does not rest in the fact that some have faith and that others do not. Perhaps the problem is where such faith is placed.
I beg to differ, GOD is not a metaphorical term in any sense of the word.
You actually must mean that "God," a word, or "term" itself, symbolizes to YOU a certain meaning, which you find unique. Just like all of us, unique; circle of Life? Think, it is one of our abilities. Peace and love, Dianne, both words that your God must respect and obey. Thanks for your sharing!
by Judah's Daughter 9 days ago
The war in heaven that describes the fall of "the Dragon, the Serpent of Old, the Devil and Satan" and 1/3 of the angels is found only in Revelation 12. There is no mention of the Dragon being an angel (even if you look up the Greek word and cross-references). In fact, Lucifer...
by haj3396 14 years ago
whaT's going on in this world? Can man be so hateful?
by Grace Marguerite Williams 4 years ago
Who is Satan? Is Satan a human creation or was he created as an outside or other paradigm by God? Is Satan a fear mechanism created by religionists to control people? Does Satan represent the forbidden or taboo in human psychology? Are WE Satan?
by bloggernotjogger 7 years ago
Since I´m not very familiar with the folklore, and there seem to be quite a few ¨experts¨ here, I thought I´d ask.According to the storyline, Lucifer was the ¨highest of the high¨ or something to that effect. So, I guess that at some point, Lucifer must have had a higher ranking than Jesus. Yet,...
by ChristianSoldier 14 years ago
I wonder, is Satan the Leviathan or seraphim? Is lucifer the king of bab or tyre? I am confused.
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Why Did God Create Satan?
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