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Are Lucifer and Satan the same angels?

  1. andrew savage profile image61
    andrew savageposted 4 years ago

    After reading scripture, I realized that there was an angel named Satanel who was a regular angel while there was also Lucifer one of the nine original archangels. Also, I noticed that Lucifer is much like that of a demiurge and very similar to Prometheus, and from a Gnostic view point it was the demiurge who betrayed the king of the angels (or gods) the Lord of Hosts through creating mankind. Interesting fact: In the Pantheon it was Prometheus who created mankind with the help of others and stolen fire from Zeus. Not until late into the story of Jesus Christ is Satan introduced in the forest.

    1. The0NatureBoy profile image42
      The0NatureBoyposted 4 years agoin reply to this

      From the only mention of Lucifer in the Bible, Isaiah 14, he is not even an angel.  In context, he, rather, they are just now upon the earth as 1% of the 1% who are "hell  bent" on controlling the entire population and at this present time are "to big to jail" by any government for their corruption.  They are the ones responsible for the world's state by using the threat of the United States' nuclear arsenal to control the governments their money can't buy.  But, according to that prophecy, they will find themselves just like any other man which suggests they will eventually be jailed.

      1. JPB0756 profile image59
        JPB0756posted 4 years agoin reply to this

        You ARE joking, yes?  "their money can't buy"......that entity does not exist, my  idealistic, intelligent friend;  U.S.A. OWNS and CONTROLS THE WORLD.  LOVE IT, LIVE IT, BE IT.  THANKS FOR YOUR TIME.

        1. The0NatureBoy profile image42
          The0NatureBoyposted 4 years agoin reply to this

          JPB,
          No, I am not joking, I'm serious.  People who want to control others will sell themselves to people with enough money to present the illusion of power {we are conditioned to believe money is power}.  It only takes a few thousands of dollars to buy them.  Look at how police are bought only by their salaries to be brutal to people when they are supposed to "protect and serve" us.  They get no extra money for being corrupt yet they are.   Look at all the stupid stuff people do on TV for money, so no, I'm serious.

          1. JPB0756 profile image59
            JPB0756posted 4 years agoin reply to this

            Excellent reply;  "absolute power corrupts, absolutely," may show that you are not alone in time with your thinking.  The world has come to the time of the best unification: just watch and enjoy.  Peace.

            1. The0NatureBoy profile image42
              The0NatureBoyposted 4 years agoin reply to this

              Absolute power does not corrupt, the illusion of power being a substance like money will corrupt absolutely.  Absolute power comes with wisdom, knowing the purpose for all things and accepting them because they are, and the wise works to ensure all things are for the benefit of everyone equally, therefore, it isn't corrupt at all.

              1. JPB0756 profile image59
                JPB0756posted 4 years agoin reply to this

                I agree.  Continue as you please, as redundant as that statement is, for you will shed light for those in darkness.  Truth.  Excellent.

                1. The0NatureBoy profile image42
                  The0NatureBoyposted 4 years agoin reply to this

                  Thanks.

                2. JPB0756 profile image59
                  JPB0756posted 4 years agoin reply to this

                  Knowledge vs. "Illusions,"  must say wisdom is earned. You're welcome. :-D

  2. Zelkiiro profile image93
    Zelkiiroposted 4 years ago

    The connection was initially drawn by rabbis performing midrash, and whatever they say tends to go, so...probably.

    (That is, the mentioning of Lucifer in Isaiah and the appearance of Satan in Job were concluded to be the same being.)

  3. Disappearinghead profile image79
    Disappearingheadposted 4 years ago

    Lucifer was a man, the King of Babylon, Nebuchadnezzar. Isaiah called him shining one to mock him by drawing a parallel with the Canaanite god, the son of the goddess of the dawn, who also unexpectedly and dramatically fell from a lofty position. Lucifer is an early example of Jewish humour.

  4. profile image0
    Beth37posted 4 years ago

    Lucifer’s fall is described in two key Old Testament chapters—Ezekiel 28 and Isaiah 14. Let’s briefly look at both of these.

    It would seem from the context of Ezekiel 28 that the first ten verses of this chapter are dealing with a human leader. Then, starting in verse 11 and on through verse 19, Lucifer is the focus of discussion.

    What is the rationale for the conclusion that these latter verses refer to the fall of Lucifer? Whereas the first ten verses in this chapter speak about the ruler of Tyre (who was condemned for claiming to be a god though he was just a man), the discussion moves to the king of Tyre starting in verse 11. Many scholars believe that though there was a human “ruler” of Tyre, the real “king” of Tyre was Satan, for it was he who was ultimately at work in this anti-God city and it was he who worked through the human ruler of the city.

    Some have suggested that these verses may actually be dealing with a human king of Tyre who was empowered by Satan. Perhaps the historic king of Tyre was a tool of Satan, possibly even indwelt by him. In describing this king, Ezekiel also gives us glimpses of the superhuman creature, Satan, who was using, if not indwelling, him.

    Now, there are things that are true of this “king” that—at least ultimately—cannot be said to be true of human beings. For example, the king is portrayed as having a different nature from man (he is a cherub, verse 14); he had a different position from man (he was blameless and sinless, verse 15); he was in a different realm from man (the holy mount of God, verses 13,14); he received a different judgment from man (he was cast out of the mountain of God and thrown to the earth, verse 16); and the superlatives used to describe him don’t seem to fit that of a normal human being (“full of wisdom,” “perfect in beauty,” and having “the seal of perfection,” verse 12 NASB).

    Our text tells us that this king was a created being and left the creative hand of God in a perfect state (Ezekiel 28:12,15). And he remained perfect in his ways until iniquity was found in him (verse 15b). What was this iniquity? We read in verse 17, “Your heart became proud on account of your beauty, and you corrupted your wisdom because of your splendor.” Lucifer apparently became so impressed with his own beauty, intelligence, power, and position that he began to desire for himself the honor and glory that belonged to God alone. The sin that corrupted Lucifer was self-generated pride.

    Apparently, this represents the actual beginning of sin in the universe—preceding the fall of the human Adam by an indeterminate time. Sin originated in the free will of Lucifer in which—with full understanding of the issues involved—he chose to rebel against the Creator.

    This mighty angelic being was rightfully judged by God: “I threw you to the earth” (Ezekiel 28:18). This doesn’t mean that Satan had no further access to heaven, for other Scripture verses clearly indicate that Satan maintained this access even after his fall (Job 1:6-12; Zechariah 3:1,2). However, Ezekiel 28:18 indicates that Satan was absolutely and completely cast out of God’s heavenly government and his place of authority (Luke 10:18).

    http://www.christianity.com/theology/th … 57519.html

    1. Zelkiiro profile image93
      Zelkiiroposted 4 years agoin reply to this

      It's hard to take Ezekiel 28 seriously, however, because God claims Tyre would be destroyed and never found again. We found its ruins, so somebody destroyed it, but...we found its ruins.

    2. SwordofManticorE profile image79
      SwordofManticorEposted 4 years agoin reply to this

      The word lucifer isnt even Hebrew, it is latin. The king of babylon did fall, but he wasn't an angel.

      1. The0NatureBoy profile image42
        The0NatureBoyposted 4 years agoin reply to this

        When reading whole of Isaiah 14, the only place Lucifer is found in the cannoned Bible, we find Lucifer isn't even an angel, they {it's a group of man} are man who are wanting to control the whole world as the 1% of the 1% are attempting to do today.   That 1% or the 1% are attempting to establish the space station for living, they believe themselves above everything in earth and heaven because of their large sums of money, but they are going to fall and become like the rest of us, just people.   That's who I say Lucifer is.

        1. Jerami profile image71
          Jeramiposted 4 years agoin reply to this

          What IF ?    neither and both arer real?
          What if  ......  everything in my life is as real as that which you produced.
          But yours isn't IN MY world and mine aint in yours;    And that is why I can't see everything thats in yours.   YOU CAN'T SEE everything that is in mine.         So quit asking to see it.     Show me yours ant maybe I'll show mine.
          What if' ......  Atheist and Theist could agree to disagree about this ?????     

          WHAT IF EVERYTHING IS TRUE ???????????????????      Don't say you know it aint!

          1. The0NatureBoy profile image42
            The0NatureBoyposted 4 years agoin reply to this

            Everything is true depending on how they are interpreted.  Spoken language has its limits, it always depends on interpretation so once man, using the things made by man and nature, are able to interpret things as a reality instead of based on right and wrong, good/evil, good/devil and the like they see how even lies are interpreted into a fact.

          2. Zelkiiro profile image93
            Zelkiiroposted 4 years agoin reply to this

            Impossible.

            Theism of any kind = God(s) exist(s).
            Atheism = There is/are no god(s).

            Both cannot be true at the same time.

            1. Jerami profile image71
              Jeramiposted 4 years agoin reply to this

              I can say with all certainty there are NO lions in the back yard.
              A woman in Africa screams "There is a lion in the back yard"

              AND both statements are true

    3. profile image0
      Brenda Durhamposted 4 years agoin reply to this

      Yes, this.

  5. SpanStar profile image59
    SpanStarposted 4 years ago
    1. Disappearinghead profile image79
      Disappearingheadposted 4 years agoin reply to this

      That nicely summarises the Christianism view, but that does not make it true. For example the whole Lucifer beautiful music playing angel that was cast out of heaven for being a proud naughty boy account does not exist in the bible, but was made up by the Church in the Dark Ages by stringing together a set of unrelated and misunderstood bible verses.  I would suggest that anybody who really wants to know who this satan character is would do well to look at the Jewish view.

      1. SpanStar profile image59
        SpanStarposted 4 years agoin reply to this

        For the Christian the issue is not proof but rather faith. God expects the CHRISTIAN to trust that the Bible is his word and we either as a Christian believe the Bible Or Not. He does not look for us to rewrite the Bible to suit our views.

        1. SwordofManticorE profile image79
          SwordofManticorEposted 4 years agoin reply to this

          Your problem is that you read the bible as you are and don't read the bible as it was meant to be read. Another fact is that some bible versions were written to suit doctrine. The KJV is a good example.

          1. SpanStar profile image59
            SpanStarposted 4 years agoin reply to this

            First of all mankind is flawed and because of that we can expect mankind to get things wrong and there is plenty of human history to prove that. Now you can say the Bible was written by humans so we can expect it to be flawed but flawed are not if people choose to believe in other human beings and their frailties how is it that the Christian cannot do likewise?

            How is it that I have a problem simply because I don't agree with you?

            1. profile image0
              riddle666posted 4 years agoin reply to this

              Some people are very honest, the only problem is that they extrapolate themselves to others.

            2. The0NatureBoy profile image42
              The0NatureBoyposted 4 years agoin reply to this

              If man understood the Bible's beginning, do not eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, we would know man are not flawed.  It's man's flaw in not seeking the spirit of the words but accepting the letter of the words which is our problem, Span Star.

            3. SwordofManticorE profile image79
              SwordofManticorEposted 4 years agoin reply to this

              The bible is a book of over 70 books written by men inspired by God. It is perfectly written in its original Hebrew and Greek language. When translating the bible, it is only normal to get false translations leading to false beliefs. Isaiah 14:12 is a perfect example. The Hebrew word הֵילֵל was translated in Latin Lucifer when in fact it means "Howl You"!

          2. The0NatureBoy profile image42
            The0NatureBoyposted 4 years agoin reply to this

            I disagree with you, Sword of ManticorE, about the KJV but I'll not go there here.

            1. SwordofManticorE profile image79
              SwordofManticorEposted 4 years agoin reply to this

              I only need to use one word in the KJV to prove me right. The word is "hell"!

              1. The0NatureBoy profile image42
                The0NatureBoyposted 4 years agoin reply to this

                That's only a metaphor anyway, so is the lake of fire, so I still disagree.

                1. SwordofManticorE profile image79
                  SwordofManticorEposted 4 years agoin reply to this

                  Of course you disagree, your a kjv believing Christian.

                  1. The0NatureBoy profile image42
                    The0NatureBoyposted 4 years agoin reply to this

                    It  is the interpretation of what's written and not the version, but I'm not going there on here, Sword of MaticorE.

                2. SwordofManticorE profile image79
                  SwordofManticorEposted 4 years agoin reply to this

                  What does the metaphor mean?

                  1. The0NatureBoy profile image42
                    The0NatureBoyposted 4 years agoin reply to this

                    The metaphor of both hell and the lake of fire represent the purifying process of getting our minds rid of believing in evil and good.   Fire eliminate the doss of metal ore leaving it pure substance, thus, the discontentment of hell and the painful process of the lake of fire are designed to eliminate the doss of good and evil and leave us seeing the pure reality and purpose for everything.

        2. The0NatureBoy profile image42
          The0NatureBoyposted 4 years agoin reply to this

          Span Star,
          That comes from Christians' misunderstanding that faith is the process of finding evidence and substance to support unseen hopes and beliefs (Hebrews 11:1).   What you just said is nor putting precepts upon precepts as Isaiah 28:9-10 tells us we who are spiritually taught will learn to do.  The Bible tells us man are to trust it after reasoning with the lord (Isaiah 1:18) had written and spirit will guide us into finding the truth of what is written. 

          Christians' selected reading of the book and not questioning what appears as contradictions is the reason for the state of the world today.  They take it literally rather than as  the Metaphors, Allegories. Parables and Symbol/types (MAPS) that most of its written words are.

          1. SwordofManticorE profile image79
            SwordofManticorEposted 4 years agoin reply to this

            Ok, then what is your understanding of Luke 16: The parable of the rich man and Lazerus?

            1. JPB0756 profile image59
              JPB0756posted 4 years agoin reply to this

              Are you asking ME(as in I'm your direct object in the sentence); if so, both are eloquent representations of a "grander purpose" well documented.   Truth is  extant, merely guised in Hierarchy.  Social status being status quo at the writing, err, "inspiration" of these epochal anecdotes, one may infer peer pressure as a root.

              1. SwordofManticorE profile image79
                SwordofManticorEposted 4 years agoin reply to this

                Speak English so all can understand, you sound too much like an educated fool.

                1. JPB0756 profile image59
                  JPB0756posted 4 years agoin reply to this

                  I did, and I am; shall I speak down to you? Your choice, as is all humanity....:-D  It is clear, my meaning, my friend; see without dislike, either of others or self.

                  1. SwordofManticorE profile image79
                    SwordofManticorEposted 4 years agoin reply to this

                    Speak down to me? How arrogant.

            2. The0NatureBoy profile image42
              The0NatureBoyposted 4 years agoin reply to this

              Abraham's bosom, where Lazarus goes, represents a time when most of man's sorrows are over here on earth; the lake of fire represents a life of continued suffering.  Both are to take place in future incarnations, Lazarus will become a purified mind preparing to go into everlasting life while the rich man will have to suffer through many more incarnations until his mind is purified from the belief in evil and good and before going into everlasting life.

              1. SwordofManticorE profile image79
                SwordofManticorEposted 4 years agoin reply to this

                That is an excellent response. Though I disagree with it somewhat. You defiantly seek truth. I have another understanding friend.

                1. The0NatureBoy profile image42
                  The0NatureBoyposted 4 years agoin reply to this

                  I'd like to read it.

                  1. SwordofManticorE profile image79
                    SwordofManticorEposted 4 years agoin reply to this

                    The parable is about the end of the OC and the coming age of the NC. Christ told the pharisees who received the blessings given to them by God would end and be given to the gentile nations. The rich man is symbolic for the Jews of Judea and Lazerus is symbolic for the gentile nations. It even goes deeper with the use of Hades and the flame. It would require a lot of writing to explain all the details.

              2. JPB0756 profile image59
                JPB0756posted 4 years agoin reply to this

                Well-said; your pure innocence( excuse my redundancy..)says all.  Peace is yours, my friend.

          2. SpanStar profile image59
            SpanStarposted 4 years agoin reply to this

            The0NatureBoy,

            Metaphors of the creation of mankind which is to say that there is no doubt some metaphors in the Bible but things which we find absolutely incomprehensible as being possible does not in and of itself mean it is a metaphor example: if a God can create a universe how then can he not do those things which our limited mind will not allow us to accept?

            1. The0NatureBoy profile image42
              The0NatureBoyposted 4 years agoin reply to this

              Even god is a metaphor if you were to recognize god is the opposite of devil and Revelation (20:14) say the devil will be cast into the lake of fire, therefore god will be also.

              1. SpanStar profile image59
                SpanStarposted 4 years agoin reply to this

                Of you proclaiming that God is a metaphor then you simply send you an atheist.

                1. The0NatureBoy profile image42
                  The0NatureBoyposted 4 years agoin reply to this

                  I'm not the one proclaiming it, it's the very Bible everyone use to believe in god that's doing it.  The virgin birth prophecy, Isaiah 7:14-22, suggest it's a metaphor also once one comprehends the actual interpretation of it.  So, Yes, I am atheist because the book suggest I should be if I want to be "saved" or survive (Matthew 24:13) the termination of civilization.

                  1. SpanStar profile image59
                    SpanStarposted 4 years agoin reply to this

                    Lots of luck on that ideology.

              2. SwordofManticorE profile image79
                SwordofManticorEposted 4 years agoin reply to this

                Has it occurred to you friend that the Lake of Fire is possibly God? (Heb 12:29)

                1. andrew savage profile image61
                  andrew savageposted 4 years agoin reply to this

                  Why would a god want to devour those without faith?

                  1. SwordofManticorE profile image79
                    SwordofManticorEposted 4 years agoin reply to this

                    A pagan god maybe wouldn't, but the living God will not lose one, because His love never fails (1Cor 13:8).

                2. The0NatureBoy profile image42
                  The0NatureBoyposted 4 years agoin reply to this

                  My understanding of Hebrews 12:29, based on my experiences since I've been reborn, is during the early years after my new conception and deep into my new adolescence the continuous changing of my understanding consumes almost all of my time.  Even on my job, during my gestating, my mind was focused on learning things of the spirit, I was working on "automatic pilot" because my thoughts were on the comprehension of life I was obtaining.   That is what I experienced the consuming fire to be.

                  1. SwordofManticorE profile image79
                    SwordofManticorEposted 4 years agoin reply to this

                    Good point, yet I believe that the fire in Rev 20, Heb 12:29 and 1Cor 3:10-15 are the same consuming fire.

        3. Disappearinghead profile image79
          Disappearingheadposted 4 years agoin reply to this

          For the Christian faith often means blind faith in what they have been told the bible means and the doctrines proceeding from their chosen brand of church. Christians need to focus on proof, biblical proof. The bible was effectively rewritten by the Church when it made up the satan myths that persist to today.

          1. SwordofManticorE profile image79
            SwordofManticorEposted 4 years agoin reply to this

            Bang on DH!

        4. profile image0
          riddle666posted 4 years agoin reply to this

          How do you know what god expects?

          1. andrew savage profile image61
            andrew savageposted 4 years agoin reply to this

            I suppose you just have to place faith in the god within to work as a disciple of your own personal Christ and the Christ within others. Christus is more than a man who allegedly died on a cross, and all too often the teachings of that carpenter becomes lost in translation because of particular organized religions void of entheogenic revelations and sacraments. Christus is more of a state of mind in the absence of the kingdom of heaven on Earth. Which is why you must press on to establish your own personal covenant with The Lord of Hosts prior to believing in whatever a pope or other clergyman tells you to believe in. On the most prime and fundamental level Faith starts with believing in yourself and a mission to bring peace and blessings to the greater good.

  6. dewahoki profile image59
    dewahokiposted 4 years ago

    same2 like human

  7. SpanStar profile image59
    SpanStarposted 4 years ago

    If we are good as we think we all, as we say we are why then did God say:

    King James Bible (Cambridge Ed.)
    <A Psalm of David.>> The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God. They are corrupt, they have done abominable works, there is none that doeth good.

    Why is it that Jesus had to say:

    John 8:44: “Ye are of your father the Devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it”.

    If we belief we alone are good enough to enter into the gates of heaven why then Must we accept Jesus sacrifice on the cross and changed the way we have been doing things-if we're already good enough?

    1. andrew savage profile image61
      andrew savageposted 4 years agoin reply to this

      This is only one version of the truth. I have personal doubts that a person truly filled with the light of a god would turn away from the offspring of corrupt individuals when those said offspring are ready to give themselves in service to the highest of causes. Such a cause could be returning to the Tree of Life or feeding the impoverished.

  8. JPB0756 profile image59
    JPB0756posted 4 years ago

    Forgive me for what I am going to type;  you ALL are joking, yes?  If any of you are confusing this debacle of words a "debate," look up that word.  Quotes from The Bible are proof of literally quite little, as are "hearsay" testaments from random, equally viable(as a source compared to The Bible) people.  The equalizer?  Both sides of that = sign are quotes by and from PEOPLE.   Think; we are born with that capacity;  distinguish vanity from truth, and ye shall truly be free, my friends.  Peace and Love to all.  A thought....why are people so quick to accept that we are born "bad," or with "sin;" and Christians rejoice in guilt?  Think tools, as in being used, think politics, think control. Fear. We are taught to fear.

    1. The0NatureBoy profile image42
      The0NatureBoyposted 4 years agoin reply to this

      JPB,
      Just because you see no wisdom in the metaphors, allegories, parables and symbol/types of scripture doesn't mean there isn't any there, even things like Goldie Locks The Three Bears have interpretable truths in them.  Check out the following interpretation and tell me if it does or doesn't fit today's history.

      Locks represent hair, gold hair represent Europeans; Papa Bear representing the father of civilization, Asians, who Europeans are still finding it hard to control; Mama Bear are Native Americans who almost became extinct because of their soft heartiness and Baby Bear are Africans who were just the correct consistence to be exploited, even to this day Africa is controlled by them and Blacks in all European controlled areas of the earth subject themselves to them except in Australia (see how Isaiah 45:14 is saying the same thing about Blacks).

      1. JPB0756 profile image59
        JPB0756posted 4 years agoin reply to this

        Wonderful!  We both recall the Greeks thought that ALL ARTISTS speak truth, as their words are art itself. Any song, movie or eighth grade essay has a theme; perspective provides depth and dimension.  Truth is everywhere for the truthful; we see what we choose to.

      2. JPB0756 profile image59
        JPB0756posted 4 years agoin reply to this

        Theonatureboy, you are a skilled reader; I will go further and say that you probably would agree to use 'Love" as an alternative  for " God."All sarcasm aside, I think we see the same.  Druidic, you are.  Peace and love, friend.

        1. The0NatureBoy profile image42
          The0NatureBoyposted 4 years agoin reply to this

          I prefer to use "one's own life-force" for the term god.  John 1:1-3 say, in the beginning was the "verbal means of explaining" {word's definition} and the "verbal means of explaining" was with god and the "verbal means of explaining" was god, all things were made by {with} a "verbal means of explaining" and without the "verbal means of explaining" there was nothing made that was made.  Since we generally only recognize man as the user of words and the term "man" means "mind able to comprehend all things," then, once any man comprehend all things of this plane they are god since all knowledge is in each life-force.  Our flesh has to learn what is in our life-force which makes the body to be "the son of god" because it has to learn from the life-force, which is also what education means.

          LOVE or INDIFFERENCE

          Love, a word which cannot be defined,
          not what you do but a frame of mind;
          yet it does create an effect
          few are ever able to reject.

          It does not build empires by setting boundary lines,
          neither does it stake out claiming things as mine.
          It's not selfish to any at all,
          not to rich nor poor, nor great nor small.

          It's not bias in any light,
          not to red nor yellow nor black nor white;
          but it does make every living thing your brother,
          spirit your father and the earth your nursing mother.

          Peace be unto you also, friend.

          1. JPB0756 profile image59
            JPB0756posted 4 years agoin reply to this

            Thank you.  Eloquently and honestly stated, your point is well said without prejudice.  I believe our paths will join; again, thank you very much, my friend!   :-D

    2. andrew savage profile image61
      andrew savageposted 4 years agoin reply to this

      In the most literal of fashions, I do not believe that one needs to believe in any of the words written down by those responsible for the inception of the Bible in order to find the Christus within. Perhaps the problem does not rest in the fact that some have faith and that others do not. Perhaps the problem is where such faith is placed.

  9. Diane Woodson profile image60
    Diane Woodsonposted 4 years ago

    I beg to differ, GOD is not a metaphorical term in any sense of the word.

    1. JPB0756 profile image59
      JPB0756posted 4 years agoin reply to this

      You actually must mean that "God,"  a word, or "term" itself, symbolizes to YOU a certain meaning, which you find unique.  Just like all of us, unique;  circle of Life? Think, it is one of our abilities.  Peace and love, Dianne, both words that your God must respect and obey.  Thanks for your sharing!

    2. profile image0
      Brenda Durhamposted 4 years agoin reply to this

      True.

 
working