Have you failed at any MLM/network marketing business?

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  1. aka-dj profile image66
    aka-djposted 13 years ago

    Perhaps I should rephrase that.
    Have you not achieved any success at these?

    If so, what do you put it down to?

    1. profile image0
      Home Girlposted 13 years agoin reply to this

      3 times in 3 different companies. Too many factors to mention. Overpriced product, lack of support, lack of understanding how MLM works, lack of money. To push expensive product you need money, you need to know how, you need time. if you have to go and feed your family  - forget about MLM - get a job! That's what I did. I quit on time and did not lose a lot. Some people lost thousands, some made income for life. I am not one of them. Not smart(or crooked) enough. Some companies look like a good thing but they are not working in Canada anyway. One thing I know for sure - I am not pushing overpriced juice anymore - over my dead body only! big_smile

      1. aka-dj profile image66
        aka-djposted 13 years agoin reply to this

        Thanks HG. I am saddened for your experience. I know for a fact you are not alone.
        How long ago was this?

        1. profile image0
          Home Girlposted 13 years agoin reply to this

          Oh, no, there is absolutely nothing to be sad about. I treat it as a life experience, a life lesson, nothing less nothing more. Now I know how it works, I can recognize a piramid scam if I see one. I may be get involved in future, if I have more time to be involved in something like MLM but not now. Live and learn, life is so full of interesting things, no point to sit and regret about something you cannot change. Am I right?

          1. aka-dj profile image66
            aka-djposted 13 years agoin reply to this

            Absolutely right!

            That's the best attitude with which to live life!

            1. sheldan profile image60
              sheldanposted 12 years agoin reply to this

              AHHH YES! The madness that is MLM I have tried dozens of those and lets not forget pyrimid schemes. They all have the same m.o. give them a bunch of your hard earned money, try to recruit three people i:e: bother your family and friends until they no longer want to hang out with you. I do not know any one that has made any money with MLM, lets face it, ten grand a week is just not possible working from home on your lap top

              1. aka-dj profile image66
                aka-djposted 12 years agoin reply to this

                MLM is not pyramid! Point one.

                Point 2, I would not expect $10,000.00 per week as realistic at any rate. That much, even /month is a bit more than I expect to be realistic. Maybe several years down the track. hmm

                If you find a company/product you are passionate about, you will do ok.

              2. Ken Barton profile image60
                Ken Bartonposted 12 years agoin reply to this

                Actually, my brother-n-law made 100K his first year with Organo Gold and many in his team made several times that in their first year.  It's pretty incredible how well they have done, but mind you in the same amount of time I have made Zero dollars with the same company.  The difference to me is their location being Houston - where the company started, I live in little Jamestown where nobody has extra money to try anything. Two, their religious training had prepared them for going Door to Door, and being rejected over and over again!  You can figure which faith I'm talking about I'm sure.  Anyhow, the trick to MLM success is two-fold - you have to be on fertile ground with a product that actually fulfills a need;and two,you have to have the kind-of attitude that won't accept failure as an option - Period.  I haven't done well with selling Healthy Coffee, but at the same time I haven't given up yet.  Plus, I'm going with what I enjoy more and enjoy doing 24/7 - Writing.  Just doing what I love puts me on the road towards success.  The next trick for me is not giving up and moving forward and upwards always. I wish you all the best in your endeavors.

                1. Shadesbreath profile image76
                  Shadesbreathposted 12 years agoin reply to this

                  The gold thing is the perfect example of taking advantage of ignorance. So completely predatory. And yes, people deserve it if they are so easily bamboozled... and it's not just the suckers showing up and handing over their "used" gold, but the guys like your brother-in-law who (possibly) had no idea that he was the tool of thieves. He didn't know anything about weights and measures or metallurgy or any of the other things that those fiends razzle-dazzle perfectly nice people into believing is true.

                  The scam is so old it's sad too. I'm glad your brother-in-law did well, and, fortunately, the morons that gave away 40% to 60% of their wealth have no idea, so, as long as they were happy with that handful of cash they got, who cares right?

                  If your date passes out and you do stuff to her that she doesn't know, and she wakes up still dreamy and euporhic about the dance club, it's all good right? Especially if you drank so much you don't know what you did to her.  big_smile

                  1. aka-dj profile image66
                    aka-djposted 12 years agoin reply to this

                    I see conversation here degenerates with you, just like in the religion forum.

                  2. Ken Barton profile image60
                    Ken Bartonposted 12 years agoin reply to this

                    Shadesbreath,is aka-dj right?  What are you talking about with weights and measures or metallurgy?  Organo Gold is COFFEE!  It is sold by the box, each box containing 30 sachets for black, and 20 for the latte. I'd go on, but that's enough.  I have no idea what you were thinking or are thinking at this point and I won't waste more time on it.

                2. profile image0
                  Baileybearposted 12 years agoin reply to this

                  people in church groups seem to be attracted to these kinds of things.  One or two might do very well.  They've got all their church 'family' to sell to for starters

    2. Cameron D. Briggs profile image60
      Cameron D. Briggsposted 12 years agoin reply to this

      Yeah I've sort of started in on MLM.  Really all that I ahve done is create several business pages using social media as a marketing tool to feel my way throught the marketing void if you will.  There are many unknowns and to not test ones own perception as to how to navigate that road is careless and failure prone.  So MLM or any MLM company is next on my list once I gotten a grasp upon social media as as the lone computer...

      1. aka-dj profile image66
        aka-djposted 12 years agoin reply to this

        If I can help, contact me via my profile.
        I'm with, what I believe is the best, and most ethical company out there.
        It meets all the criteria that a good mlm co. should have.

        Also, you can check out some of my hubs on the topic to help you navigate to the right one (company) for you.

        1. Rochelle Frank profile image91
          Rochelle Frankposted 12 years agoin reply to this

          Ok , You just did it again.,
          This makes me sad, because I have seen a lot of things from you that I like.
          I have seen enough of MLM to know that a few "succeed" by earning money and by using a huge number of people who are not suited to this kind of business that really lose.
          It would be hard to convince me that there is such a thing as ethical MLM.

          1. DrMikeFitzpatrick profile image33
            DrMikeFitzpatrickposted 12 years agoin reply to this

            in the last 14 years i have been in 4 different marketing bizs-2 of them i started from ground up. i cannot say a lot about many companies, as the first 17 years i did anything that sounded good with zero due dilligence. a good sign is if you can start and maked more money than your upline. i found ONE ethical company with an A+ Dunn&Bradstreet rating and a product that reduced my insulin intake 30%. dropped 15 pounds off my stomach, and also won the 1998 Nobel Prize in Medicine for its discovery. again, i cannot speak for many, as i've not done many for almost 20 years. there is at least one.  smile prosperous regards in your future ventures!

            1. Rochelle Frank profile image91
              Rochelle Frankposted 12 years agoin reply to this

              Thank you very much for your good wishes.
              If you struck gold, good for you!
              Maybe it happens, some people win the lottery, too. What happens to the people on the lower levels? They all put in their few dollars for no return. how can that be ethical?

              They have all heard similar(but untrue)claims about high ratings and awards from each and every scam that is out there and there must be at least a million.

              1. DrMikeFitzpatrick profile image33
                DrMikeFitzpatrickposted 12 years agoin reply to this

                i was very proud in my company, to have helped many "sales" people achieve success they never had prior. i cannot speak on other companies, but most who have been in business over 10 years are legit-mine included. i cannot answer your question about someone putting in a few dollars for no return? we all buy product, and are paid distributive savings on products sold-period. no recruiting fees, when you build a team, you share their success, in fact, i love their matching bonus-if i help you make $1,000 a month, THEN i will get the same bonus. healthy equity for sure. too many "victims" do not go past their point of their personal comfort zone, or their self-worth to get to the next level-which is sustainable income. like i said in a blog-self-worth is something no one talks about, but is directly tied to making money. btw, i never play lotto-easier to go make a million!  smile home biz is not for everyone for sure, i just did a review on a book by Karen Brown called What to sell on line-she outlines in detail how to make money from home using amazon and similar venues that does not require team building or networking for success. i think it was under $4? worth 100 times that.

                1. Rochelle Frank profile image91
                  Rochelle Frankposted 12 years agoin reply to this

                  OK then... Yes, there are many enterprises that grow in a responsible way. Team building or franchising are responsible legitimate ways to grow a business, but I think what many people are referring to here is a business plan set up to draw people in (most often with an investment) that MAINLY focuses on building that pyramid type of income structure.
                  I would not call a legitimate business plan that includes plans for expansion and growth a MLM business which gains most of its income from recruiting more and more marketers to recruit more and more marketers.

                  1. DrMikeFitzpatrick profile image33
                    DrMikeFitzpatrickposted 12 years agoin reply to this

                    funny how many lump MLM, network marketing and a pyramid in the same basket-i cannot ever endorse a gifting program or pyramid scheme that revolves around just money and people, no product. income from recruitment is simply illegal. thanks for the clarification. like i said, best wishes in your ventures. when i publish my book this summer called: The Street Smart Millioinaire, keep a look out, i would love to get you a copy. Dr. Mike

          2. aka-dj profile image66
            aka-djposted 12 years agoin reply to this

            Thanks for the complement Rochelle.
            As for spamming (?), we must differ in understanding what spamming is.

            I was trying to add value, by helping answer questions.
            Reading my hubs was a mere suggestion along the same lines.

            As for contacting me, that's purely up to the individual. Some people may not want to be contacted, so I was advising them that I am one who doesn't mind.


    3. ethane profile image60
      ethaneposted 12 years agoin reply to this

      I have acheived success and so have many others. the art of success in MLM businesses only depends on you as a person. Lots of people make excuses of why they have failed like, products are to high or no real profit, but ask them if walmart put prices higher would they stop buying groceries? No they wouldn't. It depends on your mindset and nothing else. My advice, dont look for a get rich quick solution. Build your MLM like there is no way possible it can fail and make sure that your goals are not to just get money but to change lives

  2. Cagsil profile image68
    Cagsilposted 13 years ago

    Hey Aka,

    The biggest problem with MLM/network marketing is the people who get involved, do not actually understand it completely.

    I have done it before. I had minor success, but nothing to write home about.

    1. aka-dj profile image66
      aka-djposted 13 years agoin reply to this

      Thanks cags. I understand. Some people run for cover at the thought of you showing them any "opportunity". I sometimes get a flat out "NO. NOT INTERESTED" before they have even a clue what Iwant to show them. I look at it as, their loss. At least I am prepared to say no AFTER I have had a look. Oh well. big_smile

      Me too. Been there done that.
      Now I'm onto one that has proven way better than my past experiences.

      1. Marisa Wright profile image85
        Marisa Wrightposted 12 years agoin reply to this

        That's understandable.  I've sat through a few presentations by people who were offering me an "opportunity" in MLM.  Once you've been subjected to it a couple of times, you're reluctant to do it again.

        If something is a genuine money-making "opportunity", give me a link to a website where I can read the full details at my leisure.  If it's a good system with a quality product, I'll sign up.  If you feel the only way you can recruit people is to get them in a room and subject them to a slick marketing pitch, then I'm suspicious.

        1. aka-dj profile image66
          aka-djposted 12 years agoin reply to this

          Hi Marisa.
          I just sent you an email about "a good system and a quality product".

          1. Marisa Wright profile image85
            Marisa Wrightposted 12 years agoin reply to this

            Thanks, I got it - and it perfectly illustrates my point!

            The link you sent me leads to a website with a video that doesn't work and NO other information on the "opportunity" whatsoever.  I have to give them my email and then would no doubt be sent some sales pitch or other.

            If it's an honest company, why is it hiding its business? 

            I Googled the product and found out it's aloe vera juice.

            1. aka-dj profile image66
              aka-djposted 12 years agoin reply to this

              Sorry to hear the video didn't work.
              It was working the last time I checked it (less than a week ago).
              As I said, I think it's a bit hypie myself, but that's besides the point.
              Tha page actually has my phone number, so you could check it out.
              I am a real person, on the other end.

              You don't have to leave your details, and no-one will ever know you were there.
              I have my phone number there, so I am contactable.

              As for the product being just "aloe vera juice", that's completely false.
              Not sure where you got that bit of mis-information.
              As if I'd get excited about aloe vera juice!!! They are a dime a dozen, with no substance.
              This is WAY past that.

              1. Marisa Wright profile image85
                Marisa Wrightposted 12 years agoin reply to this

                No it isn't, that's precisely my point.  Why should I have to call you to get the information? Why is it so confidential? 

                I tried Googling the scheme and couldn't find any concrete information from the horse's mouth - which just illustrates my point about MLM's creating artificial hype by making it special and secret.  If it's a genuinely good product, why would you be so cagey about it?

                1. aka-dj profile image66
                  aka-djposted 12 years agoin reply to this

                  Look, let me make it clear. You don't have to do anything.
                  No-one will bother you. I have my name and number on the site.
                  The way it's set up, you leave your details, I get a message to contact you.
                  There is nothing cagey about it.
                  I just sent you another email with a bit more info.

                  If the company wanted to market by traditional means, we would not be having this conversation. We would have been out of the loop. End of story. But, since they chose NM as their preferred method, this is the way it is. I can't change it.

                  I am happy to explain more, if you want to know more.
                  If you want to make quick, assumptive judgements, and have already made up your mind that this is not for you, that's fine.
                  Lets all just move on.

  3. Gary Rowell profile image61
    Gary Rowellposted 13 years ago


    I have had good success. I'm not a distributor, and the model is mlm form, but everything else is different. I love it. I know there's alot of people that have been burned by other companies and I can see why.I think there's a few problems with the normal mlm companies. They usually have limited products,and if that product is not attractive to a large amount of people, you're not going anywhere.The other thing is that some people have to buy the products up front, as a distributor. I don't buy any products but for my own use,and they have a winning business structure. I am an honest person who doesn't trick or deceive anybody into joining.I lay it out in front of them and if they want to join  they can, most do because they see the difference . I haven't had anyone look at this business and give me negative feedback.I just think that some companies have given this industry a bad rap, it's too bad that good people who like the thought of this kind of structure (mlm), or want to work from home, don't get a chance to experience a good company first, because then more people would be successful.

  4. prairieprincess profile image91
    prairieprincessposted 13 years ago

    I had a go at Avon this year, and have now given it up. While I still appreciate their products, I could not make it work for myself. I could not get a large enough customer base, and had no money to spend on any marketing or samples that might have helped.

    I was basically trying to start a business with nothing, but couldn't do it. I would still like to consider a different business, but am not sure which one. The good news is that I only spend $25.00 to get into it!

    1. aka-dj profile image66
      aka-djposted 13 years agoin reply to this

      Avon has a great name, but, like many such businesses, it's not for everyone. No one thing is, I guess. hmm
      I can recommend one I'm in. I've only recently joined and it's growing really well. Much easier than others I've been in. If you want more info, you are welcome to contact me via my profile page.
      I put absolutely NO pressure on people.
      the product(s) great, unique and for everyone.
      I wrote an Hub on how to choose a good MLM that I feel is critical for success. This business ticks all the boxes in that regard.
      Wish you well. smile

      1. profile image0
        Baileybearposted 12 years agoin reply to this

        let me guess...Amway?  (recall you asking about views of them)

      2. Rochelle Frank profile image91
        Rochelle Frankposted 12 years agoin reply to this

        I wish you well, too, but I think you are dangerously close to spamming here, by  suggesting that people contact you. Especially since you started the thread.

    2. Marisa Wright profile image85
      Marisa Wrightposted 12 years agoin reply to this

      I signed up for Avon recently because I wanted to buy some of the products and couldn't find a local rep.  I doubt I will make a go of it.

      It's a mixture of MLM and direct selling.  In Australia they don't allow reps to sell online which is a shame, as I'd probably have more success at that!

      My biggest problem with MLM is that you're told to approach friends and family,and I think that's hard if you have any degree of empathy.

      When friends try to sell me stuff, I feel obliged to help them out by buying something - and I'd hate to make my friends feel that way.  To me, it seems unethical to make money by taking advantage of friendships. So I will hand them a brochure but I won't do any "selling", and as a result I rarely sell anything!

      1. aka-dj profile image66
        aka-djposted 12 years agoin reply to this

        I met a lady in Malaysia who is the top Avon lady, and she's eager to join our company as soon as it launches in her country. (Believed to be late this year or early next, the word is not officially out as to the exact date).
        She has in excess of 10,000 reps in her downline.
        I guess she sees the "opportunity" as worthwhile. big_smile

  5. profile image0
    jerrylposted 12 years ago

    Only the few people that start out an mlm will achieve a lot of wealth.

    I went to an mlm recruiting meeting once and listened to their presentation.  These people were telling the people about how their hard work and determination built the pyramid of customer/salespeople under them.  Each person claimed to have approximately 5,000 people under them. 

    I then questioned them about how the people below them would have to figure in a reduction of available potential customer/salespeople below them, because of the first two having so many under them in the first place, and each of the 10,000 below them are striving to accomplish getting 5,000 salespeople under them>

    Do the math.  How many sales people would it take in a pyramid to bring down your potential target market to an unworkable business.  How many sales people would it take to saturate, oh let's say a city with a population of 10 million, if each person had to have 5,000 people below them on their individual pyramids?

    Needless to say, after asking these questions, I was asked to leave the mlm presentation.  I sure had a lot of people following me out the door.

    Remember, each person has to have their own pyramid.

                      has 5,000 under him
                            2 3
                  have 5,000 under each of them
                           4 5 6
                          7 8 9 10
    The top ten people would want 5,000 under each on them,
    Then each of the 5,000 under them would want 5,000 under them also.  So 10 people times 5,000 equals 50,000 more sales people, who want 5,000 under themselves each.

    50,000 times 5,000, factored into the city with a population of 10,000,000. It just doesn't jive.  It wouldn't work even with only 1,000 under each salesperson. Eventually, the city becomes  saturated with salesman and no customer base left to sell to, except themselves.  As a matter of fact, it wouldn't take long to saturate the entire nation.

    1. aka-dj profile image66
      aka-djposted 12 years agoin reply to this

      Except for one thing.
      It doesn't work like that in the real world.
      Why couldn't you get 5000 under you?
      Not willing to work, or no belief you can do it?

      Mostly, though, why join a company where you need 5000 under you to  make decent money?
      Or is it greed that drives people for the 6+ figure incomes?

      There are many good companies that pay very nice commissions for several dozen or hundreds of downline. VERY achievable for anyone serious about succeeding..smile

      1. profile image0
        jerrylposted 12 years agoin reply to this

        You miss my meaning.  If one person in one city does succeed in getting 100,  1,000, or 5,000 under them, each one of the people under the original person will be trying to get the same amount of people below them.  It would only take a short time before the city would be  saturated with too many sales people trying to sell the same product to each other.
        Those that got in at the beginning would make great profits, while several levels would remain stagnant, and other levels would be loaded with people trying to find customers that are not there.
        Some may expand to other states, but the results would eventually be the same.

        First, take into consideration the customer demographic.  Much of the population cannot get involved.  Children reduces our 300+ million population significantly.  Then you have a large number of the retired population who cannot afford, or are not physical capable of doing the footwork needed to succeed.  Many are rich enough not to want to get involved.  A great number are just too lazy to do it.  Many are in nursing homes. Many are mentally incapable of running an MLM business.
        I know people that have been in mlm's.  They ended up with their garage full of product, and eventually got out of the business.

        MLM is not much  different than a chain letter.  It is a pyramid scheme.
        How many MLM successes do you know?  I don't know of any.

        I didn't say I couldn't get 5,000 under me.  What I was trying to say, was that those people in each level below me would find that it would become progressively more difficult, in each lower level, to achieve what I did at the beginning.
        MLM is nothing more than saturation marketing, with few winners and lots of losers.

        1. aka-dj profile image66
          aka-djposted 12 years agoin reply to this

          I wrote a hub, which is under review explaining the difference between mlm & pyramid.

          There should be no reason for people to carry stock, if they are in a reputable company. Some direct sales marketers would be the exemption.

          Consumable products will ensure you don't get saturation in a hurry. I agree that it can happen, but that wouldn't stop me from getting involved. The world is your oyster, as they say. Why limit it to just your town, anyway.

  6. Shadesbreath profile image76
    Shadesbreathposted 12 years ago

    MLM is unsustainable, as Jerryl is trying to point out. Can someone make money at it? Yes. Is it likely, no. Far, far, far from it. The masssive, massive majority just get fleeced.

    The one thing a person has to have to want to try MLM is either they have to be ignorant of what a sustainable business model looks like or be ruthless enough to not care that they are not only ripping off customers, but "partners" too. Having both traits is, obviously, beneficial.

    I wrote a hub about this awhile back and a whole pack of MLM people tried to leap in and defend it in the comments section, but they couldn't. If you care to have a read at how the arguments progressed, by all means you can see a lot revealed in the calm frenzy of their collective effort, and in the increasingly longer and longer posts of the MLM "guru" who showed up. It was kind of sad to see all the sheep fighting to protect the wolf, who finally had to scamper off into the woods.


    1. aka-dj profile image66
      aka-djposted 12 years agoin reply to this

      I will have a read, just don't have time now.

      I feel that it depends on what a person expects from getting involved.
      If they want thousands a week, or even a month, I recon they are in for a rude shock.

      If the product is consumable, then it slows the 'saturation" timeline, so, in most "distributors" lifetimes, it won't be a problem.

      Some people are happy to earn enough to pay for the stuff they alone consume.

      There are as many stories as there are people. Some, obviously sad.

      1. Shadesbreath profile image76
        Shadesbreathposted 12 years agoin reply to this

        Yes, but if a person is actually buying the products from their upstream as a consumer, then they are paying higher prices for the products (often far inferior quality products) than they could from a real merchant who has a vested interest in keeping the customer happy, stock on hand to replace problems, and an actual relationship with real distribution from companies who also have a stake in maintaining their reputations. Even generic products have the brand of the store selling them, and that store has a chain of command in place to make sure the consumer is happy and they are very inexpensive to buy. Directly able to address concerns, not push you off to mail in warranty. MLM is a flawed, klunky model that only exists to prey on people's hopes, people who really want to have their own business, but who don't know how to make a real one. It's snake oil marketing.

        1. aka-dj profile image66
          aka-djposted 12 years agoin reply to this

          Blanket statements like these don't help.
          Like anything in our economy, you have good and bad.
          Products, services, sales people, companies...you name it.

          It's not good to stereotype anything, because it lumps everyone into the same tarpit, (if you like).

          Affiliate marketing on the net does exactly the same thing as MLM, in a way.
          They pay commission on sold products to the referrer. No different. Really.

          1. wilderness profile image94
            wildernessposted 12 years agoin reply to this

            So how big is your downline for adsense or Amazon?

            Statistics show that the bulk of income for the typical upper tiers come not from selling company product but from selling "tools" that are little more than hype sessions to their own downline.

            How may "tools" have you bought from adsense or Amazon?  Or do they simply give you tools and tips for actually increasing your sales results?

            Sorry, but either "renting" your hub for ad space (adsense) or paying a straight commission for sales (Amazon) is not anything at all like an MLM.  That's like saying that a used car dealership is an MLM for their salesmen.

            1. aka-dj profile image66
              aka-djposted 12 years agoin reply to this

              None of your post applies to me.
              I don't do any of this.

              1. Shadesbreath profile image76
                Shadesbreathposted 12 years agoin reply to this

                It actually totally applies to the comment you made to my post. You said that MLM structure is "exactly the same as affiliate marketing online, sort of..."

                He was showing you how "sort of" and "exactly" don't work in the same sentence, particularly in the context of MLM vs. affiliate.

                But, it's clear you FEEL you are doing something that is good despite it not being LOGICAL, so do your thing. I wish you luck. Hopefully you will do well despite the monstrous odds against you, and hopefully you won't do any real damage to anyone in your downstream who lets hope and, worse, desperation, buy in deeper than they will ever see returned.

                1. aka-dj profile image66
                  aka-djposted 12 years agoin reply to this

                  All I was trying to point out is that the affiliate gets paid for referring a sale.

                  In MLM I get paid for the same reason, referring a sale. But, because (hopefully) it is a recurring sale, I would get a recurring commission.

                  If the one I referred does the same, they get paid the same.

                  As the generations go deeper downline, so the percentages get smaller, but the sheer volume adds these small percentages up.

                  Basically, the "top" sponsor gets paid for being responsible for the sales made "through" his initial efforts. But, I'm sure you knew all that already! smile

                  1. Shadesbreath profile image76
                    Shadesbreathposted 12 years agoin reply to this

                    I did. And I'm not trying to rain on your parade. It's just that I've been in sales and marketing for 25 years. I know what commission structures look like. I know what supply chains look like. I know how customer/merchant/vendor/manufacturer relationships work, and I am abundantly familiar with how real cost, P&R cost, and MSRP all work. I can't really help you because to do so would require so much typing on my part, and way more reading than you would have time or the inclination to do. I only keep going here because I am a kind soul and want to do what is right when I can, no matter how small that gesture may be, or unheeded it may go.

                    And like I said, you're probably too far down the line to do much damage to anyone, so, if you don't commit any of your own real resources to it, it probably won't hurt you too badly.

              2. wilderness profile image94
                wildernessposted 12 years agoin reply to this

                I know you don't.  As Shadesbreath points out, that's because affiliate marketing is nothing like an MLM business.

                MLM is a legal pyramid scheme where a very few top members make money off the efforts of hundreds or thousands below them that make little to nothing from their efforts. 

                Affiliate marketing is paying a commission for a service.  In a few cases (like HP) you may have a "downline" of one level, but no more.  It is not a pyramid in any sense of the word.

                1. Shadesbreath profile image76
                  Shadesbreathposted 12 years agoin reply to this

                  A trapezoid?  lol

                  1. wilderness profile image94
                    wildernessposted 12 years agoin reply to this

                    You're right!  A flat plane with a single point above it.  smile

    2. Greg Sage profile image39
      Greg Sageposted 12 years agoin reply to this

      While my personal level of cynicism is  bit lower, I certainly understand the sentiments.

      I made a living in 2 companies back in the day, and tried my best to give a fair account on some basic concepts from an insider's perspective who put 1200 people into one organization.  Prior to getting involved in the industry, I knew nothing at all about it.

      One of the hardest things I've ever had to do was telling over 1000 IBO's under my wing that I was leaving them and why.  I felt personally responsible for each and every one.  One in partcular, I drove 3 hours to sit down with him personally so he wouldn't have to hear it from someone else.

      From being on a national speaking circuit to creating training materials to watching a company go from a scribble on a cocktail napkin to an overnight success to a bust, I've accumulated more than enough first hand info to write a book.

      I decided to drill down on one single factor I find be be central, however, the ONE thing everyone considering joining any company should weigh above all else:

      http://hubpages.com/hub/AM-I-IN-A-PYRAM … -Marketing

      1. Shadesbreath profile image76
        Shadesbreathposted 12 years agoin reply to this

        Yeah, you cover it very nicely. Not sure if you got through the long exchanges I was having wiht the one guru, but the "It is either fundamentally about the product, or it is fundamentally a Ponzi scheme" thing is where he had to go. He didn't like my fish hook company thing too much, because I kept trying to focus on the product, which he really, really wanted to get away from.

        Good hub. I hope people go read that if they are thinking about MLM.

        1. Greg Sage profile image39
          Greg Sageposted 12 years agoin reply to this

          It's like the old short story:

          It was made into a Twilight Zone episode, and then again into a recent movie (which looked bad, so I didnt see it.)

          Basic premise:

          Guy show up at couple's house, gives them a button and says that if they press it, someone they don't know will die, and they will receive $1M.

          Couple says no at first but then slowly convinces themselves that it's probably someone in some far off land, that they might be dying anyway... so they press the button.

          Guy shows up, gives them the cash, takes the button, and starts walking away.  They stop him and ask him where he's going.

          He says he has to give the button to someone else, but not to worry... it's no one they know.

          Simple fact is 99% of IBO's lose money.  You can debate why this is and how serious many of the IBO's are, and a million other angles, but that fact has ALWAYS been true.  Now, are any of them dying?  Well, actually, there have been suicides as the results of front-end loading being pushed on people to the point where their life's savings were drained to purchase storage facilities full of products no one wanted. 

          Obviously, however, this is rare, and laws have developed to clear up some of the more abusive practices.  Some things never change, though, and I can't count the number of people I've come across who got caught up in MLM with a closet or worse full of products they'd never even tried personally. Most companies these days have monthly autoship requirements too, so wrap your head around that little juxtaposition.

          Court docs have revealed that over 80% of all income for diamond and above IBO's in quixtar is COMPLETELY unrelated to the product.  It is entirely selling tapes, motivational seminars, and hype products to their own people.  This is a documented fact.

          At least if you stick someone up in an alley, for every dollar they lose you gain a dollar.  In mlm, for everyone who makes money, a hundred or more statistically have to lose money.

          An mlm take on the story might go something like this:

          If you could press a button, and receive $1M, and by doing so, you would cause 20,000 people to be ill for a few months to a year, would you do it?  Depending on the comp structure, that is an approximate number of people who would statistically have to LOSE money to support one $1M earner.  The number may change from case to case, but the concept doesn't.

          Given the added stress to their lives, lost money, and strained relationships they endure as a result of joining, and given the fact that the opportunity is rarely if ever presented on honest terms, I'd say the analogy is a fair one.

  7. MelissaBarrett profile image58
    MelissaBarrettposted 12 years ago

    Because I'm Bored...

    If you recruited two friends and they each recruited two friends, this is how it would go.  The first column is new recruits per level, the second is total recruits working at that level.

    2          (3)
    4          (7)
    8          (15)
    16         (31)
    32        (63)
    64        (127)
    128        (255)
    256        (511)
    512        (1023)
    1024        (2047)
    2048        (4095)
    4096        (8191)
    8192        (16,383)
    16384        (32,767)

    Congratulations, your MLM now has more assoicates than Walmart

    32768        (65,535)
    65536        (131,071)
    131072        (262,143) 

    The entire city of Buffalo NY is now in your employment

    262144      (524,287) 
    524288        (1,048575)

    Now All of Dallas Texas Works for you

    1048576            (2,097,151)

    You now employ the entire state of West Virginia

    2097152            (4,194,303)
    4194304            (8,388,607) 

    You now control New Jersey, for what that's worth

    8388608            (16,777,215)
    16777216    (33,554,431)

    You now employ the entire country of Uganda

    33554432    (67,108,863)
    67108864    (134,217,727)

    Every Citizen of Mexico calls you Daddy

    134217728    (268,435,455)
    268435456    (536,870,911)
    You now run North America, thats right, the whole continent

    536870912     (1,073,741,823)
    1073741824    (2,147,483,647)
    2147483648    (4,294,967,285) 
    4294967296    (8,589,934,591)

    Hope you sell spaceships because every Man Woman and Child in the world now works for you.  In addition, the next billion or so unborn children have been promised to you as well.  Just now, over half the population of earth is completely and utterly screwed because they have no one to sell to.

    1. aka-dj profile image66
      aka-djposted 12 years agoin reply to this

      I'd be happy with your first lot. (IE 15 deep)

      The rest someone else can have. smile

  8. DrMikeFitzpatrick profile image33
    DrMikeFitzpatrickposted 12 years ago

    it only took me 17 years to become an "overnight success". i have had 3 ventures that are considered "home runs". two were seven figure results, the third was close to 8 figures in 6 years.

    most, if not all of the posts of "failure" know what to do, it is doing what you know to do that counts. if your reason "why" is not bigger than your fears of failure, or even you fear of success, you may not have "what it takes".

    self-worth plays a huge role as well. things most do not discuss when it comes to network success.

    no matter what, you are all successful at being YOU and what is your values. You are doing "you" perfectly, you cannot mess it up! recognizing that may be the challenge. Dr. Mike

    1. Shadesbreath profile image76
      Shadesbreathposted 12 years agoin reply to this

      Yeah, I've known a couple of people who did okay in MLM. They had what it takes. They were obnoxious, pushy people handing out brochures and fliers, tapes/cd's cards at parties and get togethers, always selling, always talking it up. Everyone was polite to them, but it was funny to watch the eyerolls and facial expressions everyone shot to each other when they weren't looking. They were so oblivious to how a room full of people felt about them. It was kind of funny, really, in a sad sort of way. But, like you said, if someone "has what it takes" to sell people on a horrible business model that they will fail at knowing, as you do, that they probably don't "have what it takes" because, well, no one ever does... more power to them I guess. There's probably not really a god who punishes that sort of thing anyway, so what's to worry about eh?

      1. wilderness profile image94
        wildernessposted 12 years agoin reply to this

        I've known a very few as well.

        Are they oblivious, though, or just don't care?  Is it that their life is about making money rather than living or having family and friends?  After all, they are successful and winning at what they want to do - making money is the priority, not friendship, respect, or anything else.

  9. MelissaBarrett profile image58
    MelissaBarrettposted 12 years ago

    All salesmen are obnoxious.  It's the *I don't care about your life situation, I'm going to use you for my financial benefit* attitude.  People don't like being used, especially when it is so blatant and benefits no one but the seller.  At least when someone is selling something legitimate its a little better.

  10. DrMikeFitzpatrick profile image33
    DrMikeFitzpatrickposted 12 years ago

    here is a section from a recent hub:

    Here is the ultimate solution you can find reading my book, The Street Smart Millionaire. If you are like me, money is likely not that important to you at all. We all live in a world that requires us to have it though. Your values may be your family, your church, your friends, your health, your work, your mind, just not finances. My story will tell you a secret I uncovered by accident that allowed me to maintain not only my family as my highest value, but also generate massive financial results in business. If money already IS your highest value, you are driven to make, keep, and multiply more money into more money. This formula will work for you regardless what your highest value in life is.

    i paid quite a bit to have a "breakthrough" session with renown Dr. Demartini. He suggests that all humans have all traits-we express some, and repress others. the ones we do not like in others, are items we do not like about ourselves. we are all everything we think we are not, according to him...guess i was able to learn to love the obnoxious in me. no matter what, everything serves. smile

  11. aka-dj profile image66
    aka-djposted 12 years ago

    I see every negative comment shows a concern about someone loosing money.
    I get the point, but, people loose money in all sorts of transactions in a normal economy.
    Every sale made requires a cash transaction. Hand over cash, receive goods/services. Shows like A Current Affair are overflowing with ripoff stories in just about every industry imaginable, (non-mlm).

    If the "customer" buys within the MLM company, do they not receive goods (irrespective of whether or not it may be value for money, as this can vary from product to product.) That being the case, even the "bottom" level gets something for their money.

    1. profile image0
      jerrylposted 12 years agoin reply to this

      I thought you were talking about MLM as a business?  Sure, if you buy something, you will get something for your money.  That isn't what the thread was about in the first place.  The topic was have you ever failed in a MLM business?
      Most people go into business to make money, not to see how much they can spend or how much product they can buy, to make others more wealthy.
      aka-dj,  I get the feeling that you are involved in an MLM, and are looking for positive feedback from people, on your chances of succeeding.
      Unfortunately, most of the feedback is negative.  But if you are involved in an MLM, I wish you success, though I seriously doubt you will find it.

      1. aka-dj profile image66
        aka-djposted 12 years agoin reply to this

        I personally don't want any positive reinforcement. I don't care.

        I just think its too narrow minded to blame the MLM system for failure.
        I'd much rather people tell it like it is. THEY failed at MLM.

        Someone once said systems don't fail, people fail.

        1. MelissaBarrett profile image58
          MelissaBarrettposted 12 years agoin reply to this

          So, according to your last two posts... people are going to lose money somewhere anyway so it might as well be to you and they should blame themselves if it happens because the system didn't fail THEY did.

          That is a thoroughly reprehensible viewpoint with no real redeeming qualities.

          1. aka-dj profile image66
            aka-djposted 12 years agoin reply to this

            I have failed at MLM on at least two occasions.
            I paid money, got product, and then lost interest, etc.
            The first company is still going to this day, so the system is still in place. I blame ME not the SYSTEM.
            The other one never went well in Australia, but I just finished using the (fuel additive)  last month. It lasted me 3.5 years, and did a good job in my fuel tank.
            IE, I got something for my money.

            So, I'm not sure why you are saying my comments are reprehensible.

            I think it's both honest, and right to put the blame squarely where it needs to go. If you fail, say so. If the company, or unscrupulous distributor ripped you of, say so, also.

            The truth will set you free, NO?

  12. Greg Sage profile image39
    Greg Sageposted 12 years ago

    There is, in fact, something fundamentally flawed about nearly every MLM.  Not all, mind you, but NEARLY all.

    No, it's not the popular misconceptions.  No, you don't have to be in early.  In most comp plans these days, the truth is unless you're jumping your 50,000 person downline in from another company, there's no benefit to being in first.

    Quite the opposite, you want to cash in on momentum you don't have to create.  If you had to create everything yourself, it would be much harder.

    No, it's not market saturation.  I've opened cities for a MLM company before.  New markets are a pain.  It takes money, an unshakeable belief, and a thick skin to get through that phase.  It's MUCH easier to plug people into an existing system.  Market saturation is helpful.  If people have heard of you, you're much better off than if they haven't.

    No, it's not that a multi-level concept cant work.  That's how insurance sales works, and there are a FEW MLM's who utilize this basic model in a sustainable fashion.

    The fundamental flaw has to do with the part that dances around the law in order to be just shy of technically illegal.

    If you get ANYTHING from bringing someone new into the business, you are in a pyramid scheme.  Recruiting bonuses are illegal.  They are illegal for some of the best and most well thought out reasons possible.

    Generally, companies try to skirt the law by tying product sales to the IBO agreement.  If someone has to purchase something that generates a commission in order to become an IBO, or in order to "activate" their position, or in order to be eligible for downline commissions...

    ... If ANYTHING someone does to join the business or be eligible to profit from it can't be done without them purchasing something that generates a commission for someone else, then it is, in fact, a thinly disguised recruiting bonus. 

    This is, in fact, the definition of a pyramid scheme.  If you have some fancy rebuttal to why yours is not a pyramid scheme, yet you receive some sort of commission when someone either joins as an IBO, or "activates" their "business center", then it is you, and not the rest of the world, that does not understand what a pyramid scheme is.

    Your company COULD charge a $20 processing fee which they keep for materials, then provide the IBO with a basic kit.  It almost NEVER looks like that, though.  If they don't do it that way, it's by design.  They know that recruiting bonuses in all their guises are what drives the vast majority of "sales".

    Yes, but how are you going to sell without knowledge of the product?  OK, their choice... but being FORCED to buy the product just to join or to activate and/or being FORCED to continue buying the product via autoship in order to be "eligible for downline commissions" is, in fact, the very thing that makes it a pyramid scheme.

    The issue boils down to the inherent dishonesty about the core business at hand.  Giant downlines aren't grown quickly without violating this principle.  If your company is "one of the fastest growing companies", I promise you it's not because of the product.  The best product in the world sold in a sustainable fashion would grow organically at a much slower yet more sustainable pace.

    Explosive growth is always the result of either the company or a top IBO's sole focus on massive recruitment, and to recruit that fast, you can't wait for people to try out the product.

    We signed up $1200 IBO "executive" packages on the spot, and turned around and got their top 10 prospects right then and there.  Without stopping to breathe, we turned around, had them call their friends and family with a script that basically said: 

    "Don't even ask me what it is, I wont tell you.  Just give me your cc info right now.  It's only $50 to secure your spot.  I'm not even going to let you look at it for the next week.  By then, I'll already have a dozen people under you.  If you want to stop by my house on Saturday, I can show you how to make money from whats already happened, but if you don't, at least you'll always know that there's money in your name just waiting to be claimed.  For right now, if you trust me, then just do it and don't ask questions.  I've got your back."

    Not only did we close 1/4 prospects at $1200 up front, but we averaged 2 MORE IBO's PER PERSON with this instant approach.  Some of THEM signed up at $1200 too.  By the time we stopped calling, we usually had at least one meeting scheduled for when those warm prospects would all sit down and get the pitch.  When they did sit down, they saw that their "business" had already grown that they were already on the top of their own pyramid, and that they had to cough up more cash to be eligable to get paid on all that "stored volume."

    I personally closed a dozen or more at the "exec" level without ever mentioning a product at all. 

    I have known personally the CEO's and top reps in 3 companies.  It is always the same.  Those who build fast do so by first getting crystal clear that the product itself is a mere crutch for selling greed.  In the tens of thousands of IBO's I've seen sign up, I have never once seen a single person buy $1200 worth of products because they were such a believer in the products.

    Not one... EVER.  I have, however, known hundreds personally that eventually wound up with many thousands of dollars worth of unused product filling up their garage because they were forced to purchase it in order to be eligible for commissions.

    Yes, Virginia, this is EXACTLY what makes it a pyramid scheme.

    It is either:

    A   About the product... with no recruiting or activation bonuses.


    B   A pyramid scheme.

    To end on a somewhat lighter note, I'll share a funny story from one of my former upline.

    We had a CEO at an exec meeting, and he was giving one objection after another, so my upline stopped and asked him what was wrong.  He started talking about pyramids, sustainability, etc.

    My upline looked him dead in the eye and said:

    "OK, I'll level with you.  This ain't my first rodeo.  I've been in a dozen of these things.  All those companies have folded, but each time, I make a KILLING, then jump ship.  By the time it hits the fan, Ive got another vacation home paid off, and am ready for the next one. 

    The fact is, the feds are going to shut us down.  It's just a matter of time.  The product is a joke.  Nobody uses it and nobody cares.  If you want to waste your time talking about the product, go talk to someone else.  If you want to cash out a cool mil before all the suckers get stuck holding the bag then be thankful you found me, quit your bitching, and give me your credit card."

    If I hadn't personally seen what happened next, I don't think I would have believed it.

  13. DrMikeFitzpatrick profile image33
    DrMikeFitzpatrickposted 12 years ago

    Greg you are close,
    but still missed a bit of the boat yourself. the consumer protective advocacy laws do tell us you have the right to sign up for free and not have to buy product-and ARE subject to a kit fee and such. by selling your people a $1,200 dollar product you were actually breaking the law as most states have either a $300 or $500 ceiling on product pricing for a network  company. as you said, it is not legal to force items on persons to start a distribution business. so many of you don't even likely know what network or mlm is? getting a product to a consumer in an alternative fahsion-that's it. you skip the middle man, the jobber, the wholesaler, and pass the distribution normal costs on to the networkers in the form of a commission. simple. while i love amways soap products,and am not too thrilled about how they went about buidling their 8 billion annual company in many countries, they went to court in 1979 showing they were a legal entity and so was the distribution plan-on paper.
    i not only met many of the diamonds, several came to work for me in one my own companies. a typical amway diamond makes only $160,000 a year with an average downline. they make their big money on books and tapes. not too honest me thinks that they purposely keep that secret until you reach a certain pin level with them.
    most businesses fail (98%) due to lack of capitalization. even the small strip mall shops that keep turning over-same thing. MLM is no different. always look to the top of any company.
    right now today, their are 67 MILLION networkers worldwide producihng OVER 110 BILLION dollars annually in sales-obviously a very viable industry and not only here to stay-grow.
    on that note, for those of you choosing a company, you may wish to look for one that has been in business at LEAST 10 years.
    i have been involved in 4 network companies in the last 15 years-two of them were companies i owned. the last one is in business almost 40 years and has a A+ Dunn&Bradstreet rating and is worldwide. those are some of the items you want to consider.
    almost all of the comments made are victim based. all of our failures are our faults-not the companies, the upline, the anything. even if nothing else, it is our fault for choosing that company to learn whatever lesson is there for us. in 31 years of home-business, i have seen quite a bit.
    maybe you all need to develop a strategy to interview a company you start with-go to their main headquarters-mosot offer open houses once a month. meet the founders and prinicples. see the manufacturing plant and get a good feeling inside for who and what you are about to do. i haven't heard ONE of you say you did this due dilligence. its okay too, becauase most got started for greed, otherwise if you were in love with the product, you would still be involved at that level. we all have some greed in us, it is whether you have come to terms with your greed or not, it was i read in your statements. blaming others is a sign, you have not. you may simply be mad at yourself for getting talked into something you knew was not true to your values. we all have, and even may again.
    i used to tease that MLM stood for many Losing Money, and swore i would never do another one again. that was after i was making at least $1,500 a week in 1996 in pre-paid phone cards and the company owner bankrupted the company and i still have a sizable check i cannot cash. we did over 100 million in sales in under two years. alas, humbling that i found a company that has changed my life product wise and i was wrong. i AM doing an MLM.
    my upline sponsored two induviduals that make more than he does in the last 2 years-he has been involved for almost 5 years now. he makes a month what most make annually-and his two guys make double that. anyone can come in and build a distribution team and succeed in a good company. you MUST pay the price, the price to get paid. you must do what others will not, to get what others cannot have. quitters never win, and winners never quit.
    in the end, you are doing yourlselves perfectly, and cannot mess that up. MLM is not for everyone for sure. it is uncomfortable to grow and change-only a baby with wet diapers wants a change. our comfort zone is our failure zone.
    i hope i can get you a copy of the my book, "The Street Smart Millionaire" when i publish it later this summer to show what i went through for 17 years of knee scrapes, heartaches, betrayals, lies, more-because my family was my reason why i wanted more, not money. neveer has been important to me, never will.
    avoid the money grabs like Greg talked about. if it sounds too good, it likely is. if you have to work hard to succeed, are you willing to do that? it is always on ourselves to succeed in any business. i have been self-employed for 20 years and owned 3 franchises at one time, truly, they owned me. i walked away $162,000 in debt due to having kids back to back as i wanted to be a dad more than make those businesses make me money. i paid the debt in 7 months from my next home businness i got involved in. you ALL have unique skills no one else does-why not start you own companies?
    find your hearts, you will find you are all successful according to your unique value system.
    who has failed in MLM? truthfully? none of you have. you found who you are in each venture and participated according to your unique value system and got out of it who you are. all of you are successful according to who you are-period. smile Dr. Mike

  14. Greg Sage profile image39
    Greg Sageposted 12 years ago

    No, I'm not missing anything.  Neither am I lamenting elusive success.  I was offered the #8 position in a startup  few years back simply for work I had done previously to help the CEO in the formative stages.  I turned it down on principle.  I had already learned my lessons and gained clarity by that point.  The founders were friends of mine, however, so we had regular discussions as the company took off.

    I have made a living in the industry... twice.  I haven't lost money. I made money.  I never made millions, but I had a few months that topped the average annual salary in this country. 

    I am not unfamiliar with the inner workings of a company.  My last one was headquartered in my home town, and I had the CEO and top distributor over for dinner on multiple occasions.  I knew everyone who worked in the corporate office personally.

    In my first company many years ago, I essentially interned in the office of the top distributor who had a full-time staff of 12 just to run HIS office... not the corporate one.  I saw every aspect of how the business was run.  That parent company has been around over 20 years and is one of the few I believe would survive on the merits of it's products alone. 

    He, however, couldn't have cared less about the product, and was 100% focused on creating an enormous recruiting machine... which made him millions.  Of his 70,000 or so IBO's, less than 100 were making a living.

    Even that is missing the point, though... it's not about whether someone can make money.  I know the answer.  They can.  It's about where the money comes from. 

    If a company has a product requirement to activate, or an autoship requirement to maintain eligibility, then the very core of the "business model" is, in fact, illegitimate.  Did he make millions?  Yes.  Was the core product good?  Yes.

    Where did his income come from though?  Well, like most, close to zero % came from legitimate retail sales.  Almost every single person in his downline was purchasing product as a REQUIREMENT for their true motivation which was to make money.

    It is this misdirection that is at the heart of MLM success.

    Drop the autoship requirements and signup bonuses, make profiting from tool sales illegal, and nearly every MLM'er in existence is out looking for a job.

    That's the truth no matter how you spin it.

    The $1200 thing is a common technique. 

    $50 gets an IBO kit... none of which goes to the upline.  (legit so far)

    $300 Gets starter package which is kit which is all supposedly payment for product, but also just happens to "activate" the position and make it eligible for commissions.  This step is commissionable for the upline, and the misdirection and dishonesty about the core business model is already established.

    $1200 starts you off right with multiple business centers, activates each, and gives you the ability to profit multiple times from the same downline revenues.  This bit is typical in many binaries.

    Regardless, I've seen dozens of comp plans, and helped to design one (thus, the story I opened this post with)  The point is just that no matter how many success stories are told,and no matter how many platitudes are spun, nothing changes the essential nature of telling people that they cannot make money unless they buy products... and no matter what BS anyone out there is slinging, THIS is what accounts for the VAST majority of products "sold" via MLM today.

    Even in the nutritional companies where opportunity meetings are full of testimonials, the stockpiling eventually adds up.  Even though the occasional IBO might make it work for them with free samples or whatever, the majority end up with a closet or worse full of unused product.  This is not the business model of a product sales organization.  This is a snapshot of deception.

    Frankly since the real money is in tool-flow anyway, the whole CONCEPT of discussing the validity of product sales is misleading.

    The fact is, the only thing truly being sold is the dream.  Rise high enough in any company, meet the people on top, and they'll flatly tell you that's where the money is.  Meanwhile, they talk about all their downline sales as if they're a business... as tens of thousands of people slowly stockpile things they would not have purchased if they were not forced to in order to participate financially.

    This is the CORE of what a pyramid scheme is, and any company that will not ALLOW you to make money as a distributor without BUYING products for the privilege of doing so is, in fact, the very definition of a pyramid scheme.

    The rest is just fancy double-talk and ever-more intricate ways to dodge the spirit of the law while dancing on the edge of "drawing attention from the AG's"

    Any product required to be purchased in order to benefit from the sales aspect = fraud.  This is the heart of MLM.

    1. DrMikeFitzpatrick profile image33
      DrMikeFitzpatrickposted 12 years agoin reply to this

      while i appreciate your lucidity and willl say most of what you are stating is true. it also ignores that 67 million persons are in this industry and 110 billion in sales does not lie. many are happy and thrilled with their products or checks. most business plans are not illegal. most companies allows you to join or start for FREE with it. i would not work with you if you did not buy my product as there is ZERO equity and it IS just about money then. even sales persons do not like to sell and in doing what was described is a system of failure. it is the old story of the guy who knocks at the door, he is selling toothpaste that if you use it, you will never have cavities or teeth problems ever, and his mouth is decayed and a mess. the person asks why he has such problems? he says, i don't use the product, i just sell it. smile if that is what you advocate for others, you are not as sharp as i thought you were? tell me i missed something. equity in business relationships is healthy. the parable talents is another to edify that position.
      in the end, we ALL have a unique value system we are true to. we developed it in childhood-our "voids" determined our values, and we have a "hierarchy" of values-what is most important to least important. money is not important to most of us-period. including me. i learned how to attach making money to what is important to me-my family. that is the "secret". our core values don't change and make us who we are-when we find others we do not like, they reflect to us what we do not like about ourselves that we have not loved yet, or found how that thing serves in our lives-everything serves, it is simply finding the form, in which it serves is the trick.
      the heart of any business is to sell products and services-period. the heart of all businesses, is to make money-if your favorite restaurant does not turn a profit, you will not be eating there anytime soon. its okay for others to make money in business my friend. Dr. Mike

  15. Greg Sage profile image39
    Greg Sageposted 12 years ago

    I have known distributors in Amway who ran it as a legitimate business.  They focused on retail sales, and eventually attracted others to do the same.  I have even met a few that after decades of doing this made 6 figures in what I consider to be legitimate ways.

    Moreso in the grassroots organizations like Tupperware, Avon, etc... I have seen people turn many years of hard work and focus on retail sales in to success.

    I see nothing wrong with that.

    I am not ignoring anything about 110 billion in annual sales.  You are ignoring that the vast majority of that sum is forced upon IBO's by company policies that will not allow them to profit without a certain "monthly volume through their business center."

    Anyone who claims that this is achieved by the average IBO via retail sales to others is severely misguided.  Pointing out a free ibo kit without mentioning the volume requirements is misleading at best.

    Autoship and recruiting bonuses are just that... "Sales" forced upon IBO's in order to create "sales volume" for the organization.

    Talking about $110B in "sales" doesn't change this fact.

  16. profile image0
    Home Girlposted 12 years ago

    "He, however, couldn't have cared less about the product, and was 100% focused on creating an enormous recruiting machine... which made him millions.  Of his 70,000 or so IBO's, less than 100 were making a living." - That's the essence of MLM success and I do not want and cannot be a part of that.

  17. Betty Reid profile image60
    Betty Reidposted 12 years ago

    I joined a new MLM, Stand Out In Your Business, a few months ago.  I'm not making millions, but I've made three times the amount I invested.

    A couple days I met with a rep who is doing VERY well marketing Body by Vi.  I also know some Amway reps who are doing well.

    Building a team seems to be a big factor in overall success.

  18. DrMikeFitzpatrick profile image33
    DrMikeFitzpatrickposted 12 years ago

    nice rephrase. i have achieved what most consider massive success, and more than once. since my first success took me 17 years to occur, i would say not quitting is a must, in any business. in business, the only goal is profit from your product or service. in networking, sales from one person does not work, nor will not-sales volume/product distribution is the foundation through team building. what is not only nice for myself, and true-is helping others make money. when you go find 10 people and help them make 1 million a year, you will get the same, perhaps a bit more.

    after my first 7 figures from zero, (it took two years in 1997-1999) i was able to duplicate that result twice more, and the last time went to 8 figures in 6 years. one of the keys is simply thinking bigger, in case you haven't read "the magic of thinking big".

    to be a leader, means you are out in front. you all know what to do to make big money in networking, doing what you know to do is the key. never quitting is a secret. lastly, if money is just not a high value for you, (it is my LOWEST of the 7 areas of life) i learned to anchor making money to what is important to me-my family.

    Set a goal to become a millionaire, not for the money itself, but for the person it will make of you in order to achieve it...Jim Rohn says this-good one Jim, and true-you will not become a millionaire and stay the same person you are today-you must grow personally, before you grow financially. Dr. Mike

  19. profile image0
    Home Girlposted 12 years ago

    Show me the product I can truly believe in and one's not overpriced.
    Show me the system even a stupid person can understand.
    Business practices I am not ashamed to popularise.
    Business I can conduct in my home town.
    I'll be in it in a flash!
    I do think though, it's too late. Times are different. When MLM started people were buying from peddlers a lot. Now we have supermarkets and online sales. Unless you are a brilliant liar... no hype, no glory!

    1. DrMikeFitzpatrick profile image33
      DrMikeFitzpatrickposted 12 years agoin reply to this

      if you are asking me my contact info is at my profile. if you are asking someone else, prosperous regards to you! you are correct about everything you said and if i can assist you in any way, please do not hesitate to contact me regardless. when you believe in what you are doing, and never quit, you will have results. when you honor who you are and how special you are and valuable, others will too. when you become a millionaire inside yourself first, the money follows. Dr. Mike

  20. profile image0
    Home Girlposted 12 years ago

    What works in Idaho might not work in Canada, you know, Dr.Mike. And I don't want to be millionaire - not inside not outside. I just do not want to be old and poor. First I cannot change, second I will, just do not know how yet. Hard work is not enough,  that lesson I've learned already. I hate fluff, and I hate to deceive people. And most MLM's just full of it!

  21. profile image0
    Home Girlposted 12 years ago

    What works in Idaho might not work in Canada, you know, Dr.Mike. And I don't want to be millionaire - not inside not outside. I just do not want to be old and poor. First I cannot change, second I will, just do not know how yet. Hard work is not enough,  that lesson I've learned already. I hate fluff, and I hate to deceive people. And most MLM's just full of it!

    1. DrMikeFitzpatrick profile image33
      DrMikeFitzpatrickposted 12 years agoin reply to this

      you know who you are, and are completely successful already being you. demographics do not matter in this case, i only have one team member here myself. company is 40 years old, A+ Dunn/Bradstreet debt free international award winning co with Nobel Prize in Medicine science backing product (1998) deception? i would never-you MUST change to do what i have done-bottom line? you already are a millionaire in the values of your life that are important to you-your relationships, family, friends, church, health, your job, your mind, i get that-you simply do not have the money. btw, i have done 5 different network businesses in the last 20 years, 3 of them i owned myself, so am not a fan of "deception". do not decieve yourself HG, that is the most important to be honest with. like i said, if i can assist you with anything, it would be my pleasure.

      1. profile image0
        Home Girlposted 12 years agoin reply to this

        Hmm, 40 years old, must be Amway or Avon or Herbalife... It will probably take 40 years to be successful in these...
        Being me does not pay my bills, being me sometimes prevent me from being successful. I am dragging a lot of emotional, cultural,social, personal, watever baggage from a different country that does not exist anymore. Bottom line? Well, when i'll reach the bottom, I will tell you big_smile

        1. DrMikeFitzpatrick profile image33
          DrMikeFitzpatrickposted 12 years agoin reply to this

          lol-nice. it is obvious you carry the mentioned load, we call that "charge". all the events in your past made you who you are today. there is a method to balance that polarized side out. send me an email and i will get you a free course how to do so. it will likely challenge you greatly? you can also start researching dr. john demartini youtube vids to start.
          Natures Sunshine bought synergy worldwide 2 years after they started. after i made my first million in direct sales-i SWORE i would never do another MLM as i hated the baggatge too. my last one i still have several thousand dollar checks i cannot cash as the owner ran off with the money. God, or the universe humbled me by bringing a product that helped not only drop some belly fat, but cleared out my arterial plaque and lowered my insulin intake by 30%. that is right up there with miracle stuff. LOTS of videos of people left for dead who took the formula and here they are today, so, am compelled by a higher authority to abandon my former statement and deal with the drudge of the industry as i am committed to help others, and of course, be paid well in doing so. get rich quick? no, but not interested in getting rich slow either. a home business from a tax deduction standpoint means there is a not loss situation so i do not buy into anyones victimization of past events or industry foolishness. our adversities show us who we are, in that arena at least. you could not pay me to do amway, herbalife, maybe avon if there stuff is good? lol. hope to hear from you, do svidaniya.

          1. profile image0
            Home Girlposted 12 years agoin reply to this

            I can balance my baggage all right, I do not need anybody's help with that. What I do not like is to be a slave to my 2 jobs which I need just to survive. How long can it work? What if I lose any of it?  5-10 years more, still work without any weekends with nothing to show? I do not even have time to relax and do something that I want, I am always on a run and I feel it and it's not right.

            1. DrMikeFitzpatrick profile image33
              DrMikeFitzpatrickposted 12 years agoin reply to this

              i have always lived by the fact that the biggest risk in life, is not taking one. i am not cynical nor skeptical though, i do not care what others think when they do not pay my bills. besides, i learned a long time ago, what others think of me is none of my business. follow your heart, balance that with your head and wisdom, life always presents opportunities, it is up to you to recognize that. again, make sure you are completely honest with yourself first. when you take care of you first, all else will fall into place. this may be a time to heal some things within you?

            2. DrMikeFitzpatrick profile image33
              DrMikeFitzpatrickposted 12 years agoin reply to this

              one thing is for certain-trying to ask broke people, or someone who has never made money, is disaster. if you can ONLY give that which you truly own, you likely know many millionaires in your area, ask them what they did to achieve that? we all have the same 24hrs each day to work with. in my experience, most have both fear of failure, and more, fear of success. our self-worth is the ultimate barometer that will allow to make more. demartini can set you on a path of resolution quickly, will be interesting to see where you land. keep me posted on your future successes!

  22. Cheeky Girl profile image65
    Cheeky Girlposted 12 years ago

    Oops, too many pyramid schemes and scams. Try other things perhaps. The more direct approach works, making something and selling something or dealing in things that are more tangible and absolute.

    It's true that some shysters have exaggerated their incomes by really making money from hyping other crap they are trying to sell to folks, and passing off that profit as apparent profit from the key junk they want you to buy.

    Always ask them - "hey, if it so damn good - why are you selling it to me?!

    I know some guy who bought some software, built an App, and has made £11,000 with it so far. It's dead basic, but it works. It's nickel and dime stuff to look at and buy but this can work. I even have my own Nokia Mobile App on my own website. Don't charge for it though! There are ways to make an income if one puts one mind to it.

    Friend of mine lost his job at the bank, so he bought a van, a ladder and buckets and mops, and makes a nice income from cleaning windows. Yes, it's a climb down, but it's a living and real money.

  23. Cheeky Girl profile image65
    Cheeky Girlposted 12 years ago

    If I had the money, I'd buy a good franchise, learn the ropes, then set up my own!

    1. DrMikeFitzpatrick profile image33
      DrMikeFitzpatrickposted 12 years agoin reply to this

      easier said than done-i owned 3 franchises that left me almost $200,000 in debt, and ultimately THEY owned me. to be a franchisor, is to become very wealthy, the legals to set that up is over 7 figures just for the attornies fees. one of my best friends say on the board of the international franchise association. best wishes!

  24. aka-dj profile image66
    aka-djposted 12 years ago

    One common theme I see within network marketing training, is DON'T quit.
    If you keep working, you will make it.
    I wonder how many people  give up way too soon.
    As Jim Rohn says, we don't need less problems. We need to become better.

    It's like a person trying to run a race, with little or no training before hand.
    They will get sore and tired a long way short of the finish line.

    Just a thought. hmm

    1. ethane profile image60
      ethaneposted 12 years agoin reply to this

      Alot do  and its only because of lack of ambition. Thats why i use a filter system. I let people know that I do not want them on my team if they are not willing to work for there goals. Prime example, my upline's upline quit on him and a year after he did that my upline went platinum(meaning 50 to 70k a year) which would have put his upline at Emerald(150k a year) but he quit so to bad. I know i will not quit because life is what YOU make it. You have to see success before you can achieve it. Most people dont see it they drive blind and hope it comes to them.


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