My Englishness is being erased :(

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   Susan Hambidgeposted 7 years ago

   Bit by bit the 'editing' is changing my words .... I know it is 'for the good of the whole' but I am starting to feel a bit put off by it all.
   Some of my English grammar is going too, or my English-isms and I find that sad.
   I have now had my bio put like this 'Susan enjoys travel, art, writing, and natural products'
   Now it's only a little tiny thing, but we Brits don't put a comma before the 'and'. We would lose marks for doing it and we are taught this from primary school. Now I have what I consider a typo in by bio.
   
   Have to have a think about what I want from writing here. It seems it is not an multi-cultural as I thought, although I get many hits from Google.co.uk .

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      promisemposted 7 years agoin reply to this

      U.S. journalism style doesn't put a comma before "and" either.
      
      https://www.grammarly.com/blog/what-is- … -about-it/

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      Will Apseposted 7 years agoin reply to this

      I think you will find that your Englishness is ineradicable. For better or worse, lol.

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         Susan Hambidgeposted 7 years agoin reply to this

         That is true! I shall remember that

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      qeylerposted 7 years agoin reply to this

      I write English myself.  I've been attacked..."what is with you and all those 'U's?
      Labour?  Colour?   Favour?"

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         psycheskinnerposted 7 years agoin reply to this

         Attacked by who, some rando commenter or crazy hubber?  That hardly matters. Hubpages allows any conventional dialect of English.

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            Will Apseposted 7 years agoin reply to this

            I'm not sure wildly divergent spellings/syntax in a single website is that good an idea, certainly not on the niche sites. You need a house style or agreed set of conventions to weld pages together.

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               psycheskinnerposted 7 years agoin reply to this

               Hubpages does not seem to consider it a problem.  As long as the site is in English and correct for its national style.

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   mike102771posted 7 years ago

   As an American I was also taught that you don't put a comma before the word and. Such as one, two, three and four. could this be a glitch in the system? Have you tried to fix your Bio?

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   theraggededgeposted 7 years ago

   There's another discussion about the Oxford comma here:
   
   http://hubpages.com/community/forum/141 … ommaor-not
   
   You're right about it not being a British English custom, however, in certain cases it's useful and avoids confusion.
   
   Edit: By the way, you can always undo an edit if you don't agree with it.

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   Titiaposted 7 years ago

   We Dutchies don't use that 'Oxford' comma either and in my eyes it doesn't belong there, it looks silly.

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   Marisa Wrightposted 7 years ago

   Bear in mind that the editors are all individuals and they don't all agree with each other.  You've had one editor add that comma - if you remove it, no one will complain
   
   In fact, there is nothing to stop you changing things back if you don't like them.  The editors are American so naturally, they're looking at your "English-isms" and thinking you've made a mistake - but if you know better, just change it back. 
   
   The only time you might have a problem is if you reinstate a link or a product that has been removed.  Rejecting grammar or spelling changes, or the rewording of sentences, is fine.
   
   After all, that's why they give you a link so you can see the changes they've made - so you have the opportunity to change them back if you prefer.

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      Susan Hambidgeposted 7 years agoin reply to this

      Thank you Marisa, I will change it back, I didn't think that different editors would have different styles and I didn't realise the Oxford Comma was a discussion point.

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   Jesse Drzalposted 7 years ago

   There is without a doubt different styles within the editing team.

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   Susan Hambidgeposted 7 years ago

   Thank you for all your replies. With the time difference, I went to bed feeling a bit low. I'm not sure why it unsettled me so much really, but all your comments have lifted me. I did not realise it wasn't an American thing particularly. I feel confident to change it now. I haven't really changed back any of edits thinking 'they know best' but maybe I will consider it more now.
   
   I have to admit, I have seen a lot more traffic/income recently so this contributed to my thought of 'they know best'. But maybe comma placement wouldn't make any difference and so I can have it how I like it.
   
   Thanks again everyone!

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      Christy Kirwanposted 7 years agoin reply to this

      While the editing team uses the Oxford comma, we understand that the sentence is still correct without, and it will not be an issue if you prefer to remove instances of it that have been added.

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         theraggededgeposted 7 years agoin reply to this

         But they shouldn't really add it in the first place, Christy. It's an unnecessary correction which just causes more work for the writer to change it back if that is their preference. Personally, I couldn't be bothered but some obviously are. Perhaps the editing team should be told not to 'correct' it?

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   Don Bobbittposted 7 years ago

   Interesting discussion.
   From the perspective of a writer who often used "Southern Slang" in my stories that I used to put on HP, they would butcher my stories, trying to make the sentences "proper American English", which, of course butchered the soul of the story.
   I never did get an satisfaction from HP on this until I removed most of my creative writing and placed them on my other sites.
   So, good Luck, trying to "do it your own way",
   DON

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      Marisa Wrightposted 7 years agoin reply to this

      I'm surprised to hear they edited Creative Writing, that would be hard to do, 
      
      One thing I notice is that people complain about these changes as if they are set in stone. 
      
      There is NOTHING to prevent you changing things back if you don't like what the editors have done.  It's true that HubPages make threats that if you change anything, your Hub may not get moved to the niche site - but the secret is to wait until it has been moved, then put it back the way you want it.  Provided you don't add or remove any links, it's unlikely they'll take any action.

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         Jesse Drzalposted 7 years agoin reply to this

         Not true. They regularly go over Hubs now Marisa and notify you by email. I received two just today alone on my niche articles.

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         Jean Bakulaposted 7 years agoin reply to this

         Marisa is correct, I often change things once the hub is on the niche. I don't agree with a lot of the grammar rules. When I had English in school, we were told to underline titles of books. HP wants them in italics. I have a piece moved to Spinditty, and made a chart of a person's songs. Then I had to put them in quotes. I did it to get the piece moved, but it looks idiotic. I asked my son what he learned in HS English, and he agreed with me. Unless you make a major change, they don't check.
         
         I also think the turn around time is ridiculous and did complain this time, I've had to resubmit pieces over a comma and wait over a week to see it moved. The last one moved the next day.

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            Jesse Drzalposted 7 years agoin reply to this

            Yes, they do check. Even for minor changes.

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            Will Apseposted 7 years agoin reply to this

            I can't get worked up about commas anymore, though I remember a time when I did.
            
            These days, if I am tired, I struggle to work out whether I should be using 'which' or 'what' in a sentence. That is pretty bad, lol.
            
            Overall, I am grateful for the contribution from the eds and don't mind their pickiness.
            
            Except for in-text ads, of course, which are the work of the devil.

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               Jesse Drzalposted 7 years agoin reply to this

               I think the editors do a great job as well.

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            Jesse Drzalposted 7 years agoin reply to this

            And no Marisa is not correct. They randomly review Hubs absolutely and do minor tweaks. I get emails when they do. Most of them the email just states that it was reviewed with no changes.

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               Marisa Wrightposted 7 years agoin reply to this

               No they do not edit Hubs randomly.  In recent months, they have been doing a review of the niche sites that were affected by Fred.   Those are the ones we're getting emails about.  Other than that, I've never had an email saying they're reviewing a Hub that's already been moved.
               
               I have had a couple of emails telling me they've snipped a link.  Links are always monitored.

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                  theraggededgeposted 7 years agoin reply to this

                  I have. There was one on Bellatory that was reviewed during Fred.

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                     Marisa Wrightposted 7 years agoin reply to this

                     That's what I said.  The only ones that are reviewed are on the niche sites affected by Fred.

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                        theraggededgeposted 7 years agoin reply to this

                        Sorry, misread

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                           Jesse Drzalposted 7 years agoin reply to this

                           I don't think it has anything to do with Fred. My site was not affected by'' Fred''

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                        Jesse Drzalposted 7 years agoin reply to this

                        Marisa, you really ought to get active on the site again if you want to give forum advice. Not trying to be mean about it, but you're out of touch on things sometimes.

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                           theraggededgeposted 7 years agoin reply to this

                           What? Maybe you are misunderstanding? We are talking about editors reviewing hubs on niche sites. When Fred hit, HP decided to review hubs on niche sites like Healdove. 'Review' doesn't necessarily mean 'edit'.
                           
                           Marisa is right in what she said, I misunderstood what she wrote. I think she knows far more than most of us how things work around here

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                              Jesse Drzalposted 7 years agoin reply to this

                              Right. I understand that. Wires were crossed there. But, once again, they absolutely continue to review Hubs on niche sites. Kylessa just chimed in too because they receive them. I don't enjoy being told I am wrong by people that don't write for the site anymore either.

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                           Marisa Wrightposted 7 years agoin reply to this

                           Jesse, if you have a forum post from a HubPages staff member that contradicts what I said, then please do quote it here.
                           
                           I repeat, this is my understanding:
                           
                           Yes, you are getting emails from the staff about your Hubs.  Sometimes they are because they have snipped a link, or made a change before moving your Hub to a niche site. Those kinds of emails happen all the time.
                           
                           Recently, we've been getting emails telling us a Hub on a niche site is being reviewed, and inviting us to take a look at the Hub ourselves.   After some time, we usually get an email saying there were no problems.  Those are the emails you are talking about, yes?  We never got those kinds of emails before Fred.  They are being issued now, because the moderators are going through and reviewing Hubs on sites which were affected by Fred.  You might like to go back and look for some of Paul Edmondson's forum posts about it.

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                              Jean Bakulaposted 7 years agoin reply to this

                              Yes, those are the notifications I get, normally asking me to change or take a look at something that has been changed right before a hub is submitted to be moved to a niche. It's normally something minor. If they want larger changes, those are suggested at the bottom of the email, but come from a real person telling you what changes would make your hub ready to be put on a niche.
                              
                              I still have never had anything already on a niche changed.

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                  Jesse Drzalposted 7 years agoin reply to this

                  Marisa, they review Hubs on Niche sites, with no changes made. I have the emails. I received two yesterday. I don't know how else to tell you this. Perhaps because you don't write for the site anymore you don't get them? I don't Know.

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                     Kylyssaposted 7 years agoin reply to this

                     I have experienced this as well. My hub a major educational publisher picked up for international print publication earlier this year was just yesterday declared good enough by an anonymous editor on Soapboxie. No changes were made to it.

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               Jean Bakulaposted 7 years agoin reply to this

               I'll pay attention, so far that has not happened to me.

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   Kathryn L Hillposted 7 years ago

   If you are writing for an American site, you might as well get the hang of American ways.

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      Will Apseposted 7 years agoin reply to this

      Covfefe that!

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      theraggededgeposted 7 years agoin reply to this

      Kathryn, not all readers of HP live in the US. That is a singularly insular attitude, to say the least. If the site required it, that's a different thing, but HubPages doesn't.

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         Kathryn L Hillposted 7 years agoin reply to this

         So, If I buy a book edited and published in Britain it will be grammatically different from an American book?

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            theraggededgeposted 7 years agoin reply to this

            In minor ways, yes. Mostly spelling, word usage and Oxford commas. See what I did there?

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      Marisa Wrightposted 7 years agoin reply to this

      Although HubPages is based in America, it gets readers from all over the English-speaking world.

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      Susan Hambidgeposted 7 years agoin reply to this

      Hubpages never says it's an American site. If that was made clear I probably would not have signed up for it because all my experiences and poiint of views come from my British point perspective and I have enough knowledge to know that they differ a lot and would only appeal to a few American readers. But, a high percentage of my views come from Google.co.uk, (and strangely from Russia though I'm not sure why? ) That will be because they are goggling a subject that they want to know about and the SEO wording, phrasing and spelling will be British. A good example it my article on cleaning High Gloss tiles. The reason I wrote that is because it is a huge trend right now in the UK to have these super shiny tiles fitted in the kitchen, but they are a real pain to keep clean! I don't know for sure but I don't think that trend is so huge in any other country. I get a lot of views every day for that article.
      
      Anyway, It seems it is ok for me to change back any wording and phrases that get Americanised so if I think an article of mine that is really written for the UK market, I will keep my phrasing and grammar, and any that are more universal I will leave as edited. Seems sensible.

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    poppyrposted 7 years ago

    The Oxford comma is a beautiful thing, Susan (I'm British too). Embrace it.

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    psycheskinnerposted 7 years ago

    Hubpages has a style guide that is US based.  i have written to style guides in Australia, the UK, the US and Canada that all include differences in what is nationally considered "correct' usage. 
    
    It seems sensible that editors would use a guide and that it would be a US guide.  Trying to derive an idiosyncratic guide from the hubber's own usage would be time consuming.  So it falls to us to revert the style differences.

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       Kathryn L Hillposted 7 years agoin reply to this

       +1!!!

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       Susan Hambidgeposted 7 years agoin reply to this

       It is true that editors can't try and get the style guide correct for each writer's individual background, but when I first joined, and first wrote a lot of these articles, they didn't get edited in such a way. They were left as written, genuine typos and all. This kind of editing is new, at least to me.
       
       There have been a lot of great improvements, and more traffic as I said before. But more and more now I feel like I am writing for someone else who changes, edits and sanitises my writing to suit their style and plans. How do I feel about that? I'm not sure.

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          theraggededgeposted 7 years agoin reply to this

          What you have to understand is that we're not writing for ourselves. We're basically writing for Google and his little friends. HubPages has made enormous efforts to stay afloat while other sites have sunk. Their determination to turn the whole site into a quality family of sites has paid off.
          
          I used to take edits personally, now I don't. I let them get on with it. When I write for HP, I feel as though I am handing the article over to them to do with what they will. I also know that if I want to remove it and publish elsewhere, I can.
          
          I'm writing for HP because I enjoy the money it makes me - and the editing staff know better than me what works. Should I wish to write something personal, I'll put it on my own site.

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             Susan Hambidgeposted 7 years agoin reply to this

             I have understood this to be true, and like you, enjoy the extra money. But, question do they really know best of they are all American focussed when the views are worldwide? I can give you another example. I have a popular article on 'Jock Itch'. In the title i deliberately used Jock Itch AND Sweat Rash, because British people would never search Jock Itch. Using both words means (and I just checked) that the view are almost equally from USA and UK. I think i'd get far fewer hits if I hadn't have brought my unique UKisms in to play.
             
             So although I should get a thicker skin and not take edits personally as you say, sometimes I think I actually do bring something to the site that shouldn't be erased. I think I have learned it's a balancing act and after each edit, try and look at it calmly and rationally from all sides.

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                Will Apseposted 7 years agoin reply to this

                I reckon if American's suddenly starting speaking German, I would lose 80 per cent (UK spelling for your benefit) of my income.
                
                We have good access here to a massive market, and learning to tolerate 'gray' for 'grey' and 'color' for 'colour' is not that hard.
                
                As for 'Jock Itch', I really don't want to know what that is. lol.

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                NateB11posted 7 years agoin reply to this

                Supposedly the search engine can interpret keywords/text and understand synonyms. It's supposed to be able to interpret jock itch to also mean sweat rash and put the article with either keyword in the SERPs for jock itch and vice versa.

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