A Different Perspective on the Move to Discover to Raise Ranking

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   bravewarriorposted 6 months ago

   I just sat in on an "emergency summit" held by AWAI (an organization to which I belong and from which I've taken many writing courses) which discussed the latest Google algo update, why sites' rankings are falling, and what can be done from a writing standpoint. I found this discussion particularly interesting:
   
   Google likes and rewards sites that build community, are constantly updated, and provide long-form content. This can be done by:
   
   Including comments in posts. This engages the community, especially when the author responds to comments and answers questions. It also organically creates updated/current copy and results in long-form content. As a side note: responding to comments also gives the author ideas for new articles.
   
   To further my point, when you Google almost anything, the search results show AIO responses first, then YouTube videos. The bulk of the results that show below those are from Quora and Reddit, both of which are community interactive sites.
   
   So..... it would behoove HP/TAG to reinstate comments on all articles as HP -  the format that we all know and loved - did in its heyday. Make them visible, easy to post and respond to, which will in turn facilitate an interactive community. Then watch the Google rankings rise!
   
   Oh - and ditch the obstructive intrusion of ads! Google doesn't like those, either.
   
   I welcome your thoughts and hope the HP powers-that-be read this post and take it into serious consideration.

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      SerenityHaloposted 6 months agoin reply to this

      Thank you for this information! I do believe traffic and earnings were far better during the days of comments. I started noticing decline in 2020. I think my traffic was hurt by the pandemic at the time, partly because of the things I write. Things never truly recovered for me.
      
      There was a Google update in September 2022 that I think was particularly bad for HP. Then things have slowly but surely been trickling out. That’s been my experience and observation, both on a personal level and with SEMRush.
      
      I do not think the current ad layout is helpful for writers or readers. I haven’t heard from anyone over the years that says otherwise.
      
      Moving things to Discover could potentially help. I think some niche sites were suffering from a lack of new content coming in. Some of the sites struggled to have authority due to needing expert insights, such as the health ones.
      
      Discover could become more community driven and if curated better, could become a place of recovery. If new gatekeeping rules are put in for Discover, I think it might actually have a winning chance.
      
      The amount of content organization and curation that’s happening right now must be wild and a huge chore to undertake. I don’t think this would be done unless there was some real thinking and intention to turn things around.
      
      I do think the staff and editors here are trying hard to come up with something that works. TAG is another story, in my opinion.

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         bravewarriorposted 6 months agoin reply to this

         IMO, HP needs to pull away from TAG. The mergers over the years have done nothing for the site or its contributors but create havoc, turn readers away and cause writers to leave the format for various reasons.

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            SerenityHaloposted 6 months agoin reply to this

            I badly want TAG out of the equation.

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               bravewarriorposted 6 months agoin reply to this

               You and me both! The worst thing HP ever did was to merge with companies that have no concern or respect for the creators that made HP what it was and kept it afloat. HP needs to take themselves back and follow the model they had been for years. Takeovers are never good for anyone.
               
               I surely hope the HP honchos read this post. Surely they can't think that their decisions to put us and themselves in the back pocket of corporate enterprises have been for the better. Unless, of course, they're making money that's not being shared with us!
               
               Give this site back to the people who built it (and would love to continue building it, but have jumped ship because of bad decisions by those who now have their thumbs on our heads.)!

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                  Rock_njposted 6 months agoin reply to this

                  I surely hope the HP honchos read this post. Surely they can't think that their decisions to put us and themselves in the back pocket of corporate enterprises have been for the better. Unless, of course, they're making money that's not being shared with us!
                  
                  I'm sure it was about the money. Higher-ups always do well in buyouts.
                  
                  I blame the recent traffic decline in my article stats over the past year on the emergence of AI. People find it easier to get answers from AI than searching for answers and reading articles. My decline in daily views has been around 75% over the past year from around 200 to around 50 per day. They held up well until about a year ago when AI hit the search world.

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                     bravewarriorposted 6 months agoin reply to this

                     Even Google is placing AIO at the top of page one. Talk about cutting your nose off to spite your face!

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                        tsmogposted 6 months agoin reply to this

                        What does AIO mean? I know what it means in the personal computer world - All in One.

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                           bravewarriorposted 6 months agoin reply to this

                           AIO is AI (Artificial Intelligence) Overview. You'll see it at the top of page one when you search for anything on Google.

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      ChitrangadaSharanposted 6 months agoin reply to this

      Agree with you completely Shauna.
      Now, everything is becoming a mess.
      Still waiting for something positive, if the HP listens to all the valuable suggestions in the forums.
      Thank you for this thread.

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      PegCole17posted 6 months agoin reply to this

      Great insight into what needs to change and what needs to be reinstated to bring the traffic back. I found it amusing this week to get a survey from the powers that be. After answering a number about how likely I am to recommend this site, they asked for additional comments.
      My response was, "See? You want comments. So do we."

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         theraggededgeposted 6 months agoin reply to this

         Perfect.

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         bravewarriorposted 6 months agoin reply to this

         I haven't received that survey, Peg. I do occasionally, but not lately. I love your response to the survey. Maybe if enough of us speak up, and the HP powers-at-the-helm read this post, we can get back what we've been asking for for years, and the rankings/profitability will rise.

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         ChitrangadaSharanposted 6 months agoin reply to this

         ++

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   ControlledChaos1posted 6 months ago

   I missed comments immediately. Sure you had to approve the comments or you got all kinds of stuff, but I do believe they did nothing but add to the article.

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      bravewarriorposted 6 months agoin reply to this

      Yes, they did, for the reasons I stated above. Look at Quora and Reddit. They are all about comments and community interaction. That's why they rank above any HP/TAG sites.

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   Rupert Taylorposted 6 months ago

   Of course, we've been bleating about the removal of comments for years to no effect, that's if you don't count Rojo, and you can't count Rojo, it's useless.
   
   Comments can only work if writers are alerted to one having been made. With a suitable heads up we can respond and edit out spam, obscenities, and other objectionable content.
   
   When comments were active, it could get annoying when readers asked questions that were clearly answered in the article. That happened a lot but it's a necessary hitch that's worth putting up with if comments are brought back.
   
   Question: What constitutes "long form?" Does Google set an arbitrary minimum? I has appointed itself as the arbiter of everything internet related.

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      bravewarriorposted 6 months agoin reply to this

      Rupert, under the original HP format, we were notified when comments were left on our articles - and even links to them. That allowed the author to respond. HP wasn't broken, but now it's a sinking ship. They need to pull away from the corporates that now govern/dictate the format and stand as the strong, working format it was years ago. If it ain't broke, don't fix it.
      
      But now it's mucho broken, so HP please fix it!
      
      Google sees long form as 1500+ words per post. And they count comments as adding to the word count of the base post.

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         PaulGoodman67posted 6 months agoin reply to this

         Complaining about things like the comments, ads, and format seems beyond futile at this point.
         
         It seems that soon everything will automatically go to Discover/HP.com without curation. The "hands-off" approach is reaching its logical conclusion.

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      Robert Sacchiposted 6 months agoin reply to this

      Bringing back the comments section seems a lost cause.

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         bravewarriorposted 6 months agoin reply to this

         We can only hope!

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            Robert Sacchiposted 6 months agoin reply to this

            True.

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   Shesabutterflyposted 6 months ago

   I never understood the move to the TAG platform. As far as I could tell HP's was far superior.
   
   I understand it was mainly for cost effectiveness and being cohesive, but I don't see why TAG couldn't take HP's.
   
   We lost more than the ability to comment in my opinion. There seemed to be more control over ads and placement (I'd prefer to believe this than staff simply doesn't care/unwilling to change layout) and our widgets worked better.
   
   I don't fully understand "long form content", but I'm assuming that it relates to individual articles or niches vs content farm? Which it appears HP is creating again.
   
   Can you have too much short content (thinking "news" here") that it counter acts even the best quality long form? Adding new content to sites is important, but I don't think the "news" articles did anyone any favors.
   
   Sometimes the comments were time consuming, but they did yield good conversation, and even offered opportunities for us to create new or update exisiting articles. Comments are also a good way to keep articles feeling fresh in my opinion.
   
   I understand Quora & Reddit provide user experience, but essentially they are also content farms. Does their potential EEAT outweigh the actual content? I wouldn't even say experience = expert/good quality authoritative and trustworthy content, especially in regards to Quorra. They are both one main site that has hundreds, if not thousands of subdomains/categories to interact and talk about. I know they own Youtube, so no surprise there, but does Google also own both these sites?
   
   It's disheartening that we are forced to the whim of Google, but at this point it is probably our best bet to try and adapt any way we can. I don't know how other search engines work, but DDG seems less favorable to Discover/HP than Google already is. I thought if we could get more search engine traffic from other sources, maybe HP could have a better comeback, but I've been using duckduckgo for a few months now and I can count on one hand how many times an HP niche has appeared in one of my searches.
   
   I don't know what the answer is, but I don't think this move to Discover is it. I could maybe get behind a trial run if they had removed all the content that is clearly bad, AI generated, and not up to snuff for a niche site (based on obvious poor quality reasons, not arbitrary traffic or similar content already on the niches). I realize this would take time, but dumping a bunch of a high quality articles (by their determination) into that mess can't possibly be the right answer.
   
   Discover is the new monetized HP. It was still meant to be the slush pile for articles not good enough for a niche, but were able to pass QAP (which seems less stringent than years past). I don't understand how Discover can have a higher ranking, unless it's potentially related to the continuous addition of content? Discover has articles that still garner some traffic and rank well, so I know it's not all bad, but the overall quality shouldn't be better than some of the more focused niches with experts.

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      bravewarriorposted 6 months agoin reply to this

      Check this out. It seems HP articles are striving for SEO placement rather than helping people solve problems and answer questions.
      
      https://blog.google/products/search/goo … arch-2024/
      
      Here's an interesting article that addresses long-form content.
      https://www.sweor.com/seocontentlength# … 20content.

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         Shesabutterflyposted 6 months agoin reply to this

         Thank you for the links. I have to agree with what Paul said on another post. It's hard to know what Google wants, because what they do does not coinside with what they say. Based on the first link I'd say the "news" articles fit into some of the categories they are trying to eliminate from search and should be causing harm to the niches.
         
         Yet, the news articles rank pretty high considering they are mostly promoting TikTok and don't really answer any questions. It's a sad state of affairs when I can find those a dime a dozen (if I wanted that kind of content), but Eugene's genuine guides that are long and informative keep dropping rank.
         
         It feels like the beginning of the end. Without true direction and a clear vision for the future (which I realize is probably a bit harder given our reliance on Google), I do not see how this move is going to produce long term benefits for HP.
         
         On a separate note, Parade which is another entity of TAG almost identical to Discover and the HP niches, has a much higher authority score on SEMrush. I will be honest in that I have no idea how SEM actually works or what the rankings mean (or if the A.S. is what is causing this drastic move, that might have come from commenters and not Lisa), but I find it interesting that a site ran by the same company can have such a high score (87 if I remember right) when the very similar HP sites are lower.

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   Jodahposted 6 months ago

   It is good to read that coming from an authoritative source, Shauna.  It makes so much sense, and what we have been trying to say for ages to no avail. What will it take for TAG to realise they changed something that was already working successfully (and not for the better)?
   
   Change HP back to its original formatting that allowed comments and was overall a better experience for writers and readers alike. They always use Google wants this and Google wants that for changes. Well, it is clear they are not following Google's preferences now.

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      bravewarriorposted 6 months agoin reply to this

      Crystal clear, John!

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   Peggy Wposted 6 months ago

   All of us who have been here for some time have missed the comments.  It is part of what made this site so enjoyable.  If it also served to update our articles, that could only serve as a plus factor.  I miss those days!

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      bravewarriorposted 6 months agoin reply to this

      Peggy, hopefully HP will be following this thread and rethink their decisions.

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      Rock_njposted 6 months agoin reply to this

      In addition to what you said, I also miss the comments because they often provided useful feedback or additional information.

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         bravewarriorposted 6 months agoin reply to this

         Exactly!

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   Eileen Hughesposted 6 months ago

   Me too  and I am still trying to edit some of my comments from before they stopped and they say I have an alert 10 comments not answered, but if no one can see them why do it, I have actually answered about 15 but alert still there

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      theraggededgeposted 6 months agoin reply to this

      Do you mean Questions? Because we could never edit comments only approve them. The questions are still visible on my articles.

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   Eileen Hughesposted 6 months ago

   yes sorry questions but I have over 200 articles and i dont know which ones they mean I have done several but no change so......

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      theraggededgeposted 6 months agoin reply to this

      You should be able to see on here: https://hubpages.com/my/hubs/qanda
      
      If you have replied it says 'Published XXdateXX'

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   alexadryposted 6 months ago

   Thank you Shauna for sharing what you have learned from the emergency summit.
   
   I believe that engaging with comments and questions can truly distinguish us from other websites that typically hire freelancers to write their content and then move on leaving readers with lack of support and perhaps even many unanswered questions.
   
   Providing ongoing support through forums, answers, updates, and follow-ups helps establish trust and I believe it even fosters an emotional connection that will have users coming back.
   
   While AI can significantly deter readers from visiting websites, I feel it can also prompt a growing demand for human-written articles and engagement.
   
   Lately, I find myself skipping Google and heading straight to Reddit when I want personal opinions and insights, which are often missing from more impersonal websites.
   
   One major drawback of Reddit is its anonymity. Users often have no real names or pictures, leading to instances of bullying and misuse of the system. It’s challenging to verify if people are true experts or really have genuine personal experience on the topics they discuss.
   
   However, I sometimes find credible hints that someone is a real scientist, nutritionists or doctor or just somebody who really knows their stuff or just have unique perspectives on things, and I eagerly follow their posts.
   
   Imagine how powerful it would be to have a community website like Reddit here, with the added advantage of all authors using their real names, having a real picture in their profile, and a profile showcasing their expertise or experiences. Just think about how many readers, followers and experts would eventually flock to such a platform.
   
   Consider if a community like Bubblews would have survived and still be here today. By now, it could have surpassed Reddit, given its additional appeal of integrated earnings.
   
   I think a community driven platform could have a significant potential for creating a dynamic, trustworthy, and engaging platform that could have readers potentially bypass Google and all the AI manufactured content.
   
   If we could accomplish all of this I think we could finally disregard Google's frequent updates, similar to how consumers bypass Google by going directly to Amazon for their shopping needs. How liberating would that feel?
   
   Just my two, positive thinking, cents

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      EricDockettposted 6 months agoin reply to this

      Agree 100%. I do the same with Reddit. If I am buying something, I look for reviews there, because people talk candidly.
      
      If I want to know how to do something, I go to YouTube, where some ordinary dude who has the same problem as me has posted a video about how he solved it.
      
      I agree that it would be smart for HP to move in that direction. Search traffic will always be important, but the way Google is set up now seems hopeless for anyone but big-name sites.
      
      HP is a user-generated content site, so we already have the basis for something like that. They always marketed as a site for everyday experts.
      
      Bring back the comments, create a strong internal search engine, and go back to letting people write what they want without so much interference from editors. 
      
      Also (while I am ranting) please shut the front door and stop letting anyone and everyone write here. They should have to demonstrate a basic level of skill and have checked off certain key articles in the Learning Center before they post anything. It would improve HPs reputation, encourage quality writers to join, and convince the good writers who remain that HP is still worth their time.
      
      That might be the way forward. Unfortunately, it would take a little work on HP and TAGs part, and they have not demonstrated they'd be willing to do it.

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         bravewarriorposted 6 months agoin reply to this

         Thank you for your input, Eric. I, too, go straight to YouTube when I want to learn how to do something. Real people offering real solutions to real problems.

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      bravewarriorposted 6 months agoin reply to this

      Adrienne, thank you for your two, positive thinking cents. I think you've hit the nail on the head!

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      viryaboposted 6 months agoin reply to this

      Thank you. I agree 100%. I hope the Hubpages team is reading this.

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         bravewarriorposted 6 months agoin reply to this

         +1000!

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      Solarasposted 6 months agoin reply to this

      I believe the failed Rojo was an attempt to create a user forum based on our articles. Rather than making comments on that particular article, they were whisked off to a forum, Rojo, with zero engagement. 
      
      If you build it, they will come, then go away cuz nothing is happening there.   
      
      Rojo was half a$$ed in its concept and rollout.  If they had gotten the HP authors and staff to engage in it, it might have had a chance to catch on with Google, but it was so weird and remote, I don't think any of us knew what to do with it. 
      
      HP had a built in audience to generate Rojo conversations, but they never lit it up.  And of course the forums or the old "Ask" community thing could have been morphed into Rojo, and Rojo needed a better name.  What was the hot pepper about anyway?
      
      HP has a bevy of active users, and squandered the opportunity to learn from them about what would work, what would be a good name, as well as getting us to buy into a new forum, promote it on our articles and actively engage in a new community.  They just announced a new "thing" very exciting, and that was that. 
      
      We could not see how it could benefit us, and HP management did not seem to care what benefits the writers.  At the time they were busy creating their own product pages, loaded with Amazon links, News pages of low value and switching the rules on payment from a % of impressions to pageviews.  HP management was in competition with the contributors, instead of working in concert with the writers.
      
      Just my impressions of what has been going on over here at the edge of the TAG universe, which only really loved Sports Illustrated, The Street, Parade and  other failed big name publications.

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         chef-de-jourposted 6 months agoin reply to this

         Kudos to you for that summary.
         
         I'm currently in Edvard Munch's THE SCREAM asking ' But WHY?'....

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            Solarasposted 6 months agoin reply to this

            I feel your pain.

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         bravewarriorposted 6 months agoin reply to this

         Rojo was a total fail. It was Maven's - or was is TAG's? - attempt at allowing comments, but it was entirely too cumbersome to locate the where and how.
         
         HP needs to take back control and reinstate comments as they were before they turned the reins over to conglomerates.
         
         If readers are compelled to comment, they should be given ease of access. And the authors should be notified via email so they can approve and reply. HP had it right back in the day. It wasn't broken, so why in the hell did they think it needed fixing? It's certainly broken now!

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            Solarasposted 6 months agoin reply to this

            I think someone had a vision, but very little funding went into realizing it, and once it was a failure, they just floated off the deal with the "sexy" properties, also funded on a shoe string.

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