But I am wondering why there seems to be competition in the real google world and no competition showing for it in the external keyword tool world?
You already got the best advice above!
What do you mean by 'real google world'?
Google's search results?
Because that's not the real competition. The number of search results just indicates the presence of a keyword or keywords.
Hi BG, a good way to test a keyword is to start a adwords campaign. The idea is you target the keyword to see what type of searches you are getting on the keyword phrase.
It is easy to set up. Ten dollar campaign, pick a like minded url to direct your campaign at and see how it goes for one day. Normally you will get an immediate result if it is highly searched for and if so then cancel the campaign and go for it.
Obviously, if you get nothing from the campaign, move on to the next keyword. For under ten dollars you will get a real feel on how the keyword is performing before you go for it. This type of keyword research is gold especially if it goes balistic.
You have some great advice, I'd take TerryGI and commend that course of action.
Personally, I used Micro Niche Finder to great success and cutting back on a lot of this.
I wouldn't plug it unless it was responsible for my passive income and current ranking strategies.
If you're wondering why there are not that many publishers competing for the term, then you may have found one of the "zero money maker" keywords. Are there advertisers for the KW?
When you do an exact search, are there sponsored listings?
Another tool besides MNF to look into is Market Samurai, where you can get a list of the number of advertisers for the term. No advertisers is a good indication there might not be money for the term.
Another thought is that I **HATE** using GEKT, even the Adwords tool, because they give nothing but a rough idea. I have found most of my KW's, that make me money, using a third party service like GEKT or Market Samurai.
Even the competition that Google shows in their free tools is way off, I'm not sure how they figure those numbers. No offense to Google or anything (because I get a paycheck from AdSense every month), but their free tools don't cut it in this case.
Another aspect to consider is Online Commercial Intent, another feature of Micro Niche Finder, but you can do this manually by seeing if the term is getting advertisers, and if so, how deep? Ads to page3? Ads only on page 1? No ads?
An interesting question.
The keyword tool shows advertiser competition, not publisher competition. A basic way to check publisher competition is to do the keyword search in google and look at the first page of results to see how many pages have the exact phrase in the page title, url and page description. You can also check to see how many backlinks each result has using yahoo site explorer. This should give you a good idea of whether you can rank in the first few results.
I hope it's a goodie!
Keywords like wallpapers have lot of traffic but they don't have enough traffic. So, possible lot of keywords have traffic with less advertisers. I think you got one. I also want massive traffic.
to see the actual amount of sites putting that in their titles and hence that could be assumed to be trying to rank for it
that's your competition level. any numbers under 1k competing sites is easy, over 10k is getting mildly competitive, 100k+ is getting into more difficult levels
Sorry Business Info, I have to disagree with your logic. IMO, whatever way you slice or dice it the number of pages competing for a term always number 10. These are the pages returned on the first page of the search engine results.
By combining advanced operators it is possible to mine pages that have the term in the title, in the body text and in the anchor text that points to the page. But in doing this all you succeed in doing is whittle down the numbers, you still have no idea as to the level of SEO you will come up against. The only way to do this is to reverse engineer how those first 10 pages got to the position they hold.
Whether an allintitle: search returns 1,000 or 1,000,000 results you have to beat the first 10, these are the competing pages, everything else is an also ran that you don’t really need to think about.
Just my way of thinking.
no problem, we all have our own opinions, but that's one of the things most of the pros will do to quickly assess competitivity levels.
of course you have to beat the top ten, but if you're at position 417 its going to be very much easier to get first page with allintitles at <10k than >100k
I promise you.
Well thank god non of those pros work for me, what you are saying is a marathon is harder to win the more runners there are! Numbers of competitors do not reflect the level of competition in any way, only the fastest few runners in the field dictate that.
Here is another reason I feel your assumption does not work, each keyword will have different levels of competativeness even within the same industry. Terms within the finance and mortgage and real estate sectors will be far more competative than terms from most other sectors, here it's the industry and the net worth of a first page ranking that drives competatvnes, definatly not the amount of competitors.
If you are in position 417 does it matter who is in position 416, or 200 or position 50, absolutely not. You need to look at the first 10 pages and evaluate them, nothing else matters.
if you have seo professionals working for you who don't know and use this you want to fire them
have a read of this
http://www.seodesignsolutions.com/blog/ … ization-3/
these arent assumptions they are every day techniques used by any seos who know their stuff.
OK I am always open to new ideas, so let’s take the example you gave above. I have done an allintitle search and i am in position 417. What actionable insight do I get from this single piece of data that will help me put together a SEO strategy that will get to the front page?
lol, I didnt say that was going to help you get to the front page but its one of the metrics than when looked at in context with the other factors is helpful in advising people "how long until the front page"
on your example if you have decent links already and you're at 417 likely 6 months to one year of constant work.
if you have no links and it's a new site, 3-6 months (ish)
I wasn’t asking for help, you either misunderstood a rather simple question or are being obtuse. You have already said that the data is useful, I have stated clearly and openly why I think the logic is flawed. I have nothing to hide and am always open with the information I give out and am prepared to back it up as I have done here.
So, I will ask the question one more time in the hope that you can enlighten me, and others who read these forums in search of help, how the magic number of 417, or any other number returned by an allintitle search, is actionable.
One more time:
Let’s take the example you gave above. I have done an allintitle search and i am in position 417. What actionable insight do I get from this single piece of data that will help me put together a SEO strategy that will get to the front page?
peter I emailed you a little while ago through hubpages, did you get it?
i would say not judging from your response.
Im not being obtuse but it strikes me you might be a little now? ..if i'm misinterpreting the bold text then please forgive me.
but your queston isnt even valid. when does a single piece of information ever mean anything on it's own?
as I said it's ONE of the many factors used to assess serp competitivity, and for the average hubber is a useful way of having a quick idea of whether a hub page is likely to be showing up for that term fast or not.
if you publish a hub, and it's at 417 for that kw, the action you need to take is reinforce it with further symantically relevant content (hubs) internally linking at it, and get some decent strength links pointed at it.
does that answer your question for the benefit of the forum?
I would request that you check your mail before we go any further if possible?
to save any confusion I would add that youre not looking to see where you rank in those searches, so much as how many people are in them total.
we are doing this as opposed to looking at the standard google amount of pages in a search, because lots of those people might not be actively targeting kws, they could just be on their site somewhere.
but its a fairly good bet that if people are
a) putting your kw phrase in their titles
b) linking at their sites using those kws (allinanchor) then they are actively targeting those kws, no?
serp competitity is about how many sites are trying to rank, and then secondly how good they are, what strength levels you need to overcome.
all these searches do is show you more clearly than a standard google search how many you are actually competing against, and likely how far away you are from the top.
I am on a computer that does not pick up the email address used for HubPages. Please post anything that is pertinent to this conversation here, so that others can get the benefit from it. I really don’t understand why you would send a private email in these circumstances anyway.
OK one last try: The question is rather simple, what actionable data do you get from an allintitle search used in the way you describe it? Hey if you don’t want to provide an answer, that’s cool, you have your reasons no doubt.
Personally I have been involved in SEO for 12 years and am very open in what I tell people, I have nothing to hide and would just like to reiterate my opinion that there is nothing in the numbers returned from an allintitle search that will help you understand how the top 10 sites achieved their rankings - and those are the only sites that matter. So there is no reason to us it.
Not everything that counts can be counted, and not everything that can be counted counts.
i mailed you because to post the same proof that i know what Im talking about in the public forum without specifically being told to do so would have possibly been considered bragging or self promotional.
I have only been involved in professional seo approaching 4 years but am pretty good at it.
and the quickest easiest way to prove that I do have some clue as to what Im talking about (as i said in the msg) is by clicking this link.
http://www.google.co.uk/search?q=busine … amp;num=10
as it doesnt link directly to my site I assume this will be ok anyway, the #1 and #2 site there is mine.
now peace please dude, i dont have time for this I was only trying to be helpful to noobs.
Just so you know, marathons aren't won by the fastest runners.
I see the logic in your method, and it certainly does shed light on ones competition, particularly if a person has targeted the right keywords to begin with.
the other main operators that allow you to actually see more of how the rankings are there is allinanchor:kw and allintext:kw
with those 3 together you can see a clearer idea of who is where and why.
they're not infallible and they don't seem to work as accurately as they used to, but its some of the more basic tools we have to piece together the picture
Thanks for this information.
Sometimes having the best quality scope for a sniper rifle isn't enough. A person also needs to know the speed and direction of the wind.
I have no idea how a search for ‘business SEO’, substantiates the usefulness of an allintitle: search. OK, I guess that there will be no answer forthcoming. That in itself speaks volumes.
lol, i would suggest you actually read what i have written throughout this and stop being pedantic.
you can listen and learn or you can continue doing your thing, i care not.
but as we charge 100 GBP per hour consulting now most would probably think it an opportunity to pick up some good free tips, but it takes all sorts I suppose.
go to any seo forum an ask the guys who know what they're doing if these are useful everyday tools.
would you like me to point you to a few?
and ok since you asked, google search business seo
click--> http://www.google.co.uk/search?q=busine … amp;num=10
here i did it for you. 53 million pages? wow how are we ever going to rank for that?
oh, but allintitle shows only 86.5 k results,
click --> http://www.google.co.uk/search?q=allint … amp;num=10
oh thats not so bad - geddit?
if youre not getting this now, theres nothing more to say.
Interesting debate, I can see both sides of it. In analyzing a keyword manually, the allintitle etc. metrics are good for getting a feel for the water's temperature, but not if you can outrank the top ten per se.
You can actually cut down your analytics by looking merely at the top ten spots, because these are the dogs in the fight.
Nonetheless, I believe the thread has gone past the original scope of the query..
blockquote You can actually cut down your analytics by looking merely at the top ten spots, because these are the dogs in the fight. /blockquote
so if youre not in the top ten dont even think about it? how do you monitor progress then? and theyre the dogs in the fight now but likely wont be (not all of them anyway) by the time youve dragged your butt up from 417
blockquote Nonetheless, I believe the thread has gone past the original scope of the query.. /blockquote
<blockquote>so if youre not in the top ten dont even think about it? how do you monitor progress then? and theyre the dogs in the fight now but likely wont be (not all of them anyway) by the time youve dragged your butt up from 417</bockquote>
That's an assumption I don't find true across my sites. The same players 6 months ago are now beneath me in most cases, including some really big names (major chains in my niches, brand name ecommerce sites, etc.).
All I'm saying is that you can skin a cat more ways than one. You're describing conventional methods, I've taken the opposite end and have been very successful in my endeavors by reverse-engineering the top 3-5, getting link counts, keyword lists, that sort of thing.
You can hit the moon by studying the galaxy, sure, but why not just aim for the moon?
It's a targeted approach. I am *not* debating that your method stinks or won't work, it's just not my method. Mine's been working fine, so I don't see a need to go beyond where I'm at.
Here's another funny aspect of the discussion: I'm using Micro Niche Finder, so I'm sure that all of your methods are being used, all I know is that I hit "Search" and go for those terms suggested.
So you and I are probably more in line, I just take a short cut.
When it comes to certain terms, though, or if I am being really nitpicky, I'll zero in on the first page. That's as manual as I want to be.
And as for ranking: I'll #1 in Google against 1.8 million exact match, in a very competitive field - so ranking using MNF is not a problem. I have *empty blogs* that are already on page 1-2 of Google.
Once indexed, putting content on there and backlinking only propels their status.
"...And as for ranking: I'M #1 in Google..."
Also: I get the feeling that html doesn't work in comments.
so am curious, say a customer / friend whatever comes to you with a new site he wants to rank for debt consolidation, how would you assess and price it?
ie at 100gbp per hour how much will it cost him?
You and I are actually on different ends of the spectrum: I'm not charging for SEO, only sharing results I have seen.
Regarding debt consolidation, or any niche really, I wouldn't go for a term that fiercely competitive.
If I was doing this myself, for my own sites:
I would rather find kw's in the vertical that I had a chance to rank for quickly, then establish positive ranking in the SERPs.
Develop PR through targeted marketing, getting links from those in that niche using various means.
Then I would try to rank for these other terms, such as debt consolidation.
Any term can be ranked for, with nothing but sheer volume of links, but the question of "how much would I charge for it" is more your expertise than mine.
It seems you're interested in something I'm not: a debate. I'm not interested. I think your ideas have been sound, but unnecessary when there are simpler means to take a niche.
You can easily dominate a niche by taking position with lower compete terms, and then posturing yourself as an expert in the field using a number of strategies.
Having said that, I'm curious: why are you defensive on the topic? I didn't launch any salvos your direction.
look: I make money online, I know what has worked for me, but if you specialize in ranking for high compete terms, more power to you.
I go for what I can rank for now and build up from there. To ask what I would do to rank for "make money online" or what have you, I'd be giving you some tips that I'd rather keep to myself.
Business Info, there is no need to point to forums, blogs or your grannies shopping list, it’s a worthless metric, I know that others stand by it and even Wordtraker base KEI on it. That doesn’t make it any more useful.
But if it works for you go for it. Good luck maintaining your ranking for 'Business SEO'.
then lets agree to disagree eh?
and heh, why are you going to come and take it? any and all competition welcome
it's a glory term, small search numbers, no conversions but non-techie customers love it as a demo and it would be slightly inconvenient if I had to take the picture off the homepage.
I know it’s a glory term, all the more reason its use was pointless and the context meaningless.
lol, seriously, some people.
it originally was used to demonstrate that the info was given by someone who isnt a 14 year old forum repeater with no clue, but by someone with a good understanding of seo compared to the average hubber.
it was then used to demonstrate the actual use of the allintitle and how it might help you make decisions about kw targeting.
clearly i dont have to demonstrate anything to you because you know everything already.
but as i have been willing to share examples i think its only fair you do now as well, to show me why your way is better?
please show me one single ranking you have ever achieved with more than 250k allintitle search and i'll accept that you are right and I am wrong..
until then this conversation is over, I dont have time for trolls, especially Scottish ones.
Tut tut, a racist as well. I don’t think telling anyone the terms I rank for or those I have achieved for clients would be clever in the least. So we will just go with the term 'business seo' for now since it seems to be your benchmark term. See you soon.
no thought not..
well tell me in private then? else i might have to stick an seo scotland page in the site so you have to get past me first. it would come in at at least 50 or 60 I reckon which is a ways up from you.
but with an allintitle search of under 1000 that's childsplay for anyone who knows what they're doing
http://www.google.co.uk/search?q=allint … amp;num=10
Go for it, I have already started on 'Business SEO', but thanks for the warning about 'SEO Scotland', I guess 'SEO Ibiza' is next then.
ok t'is done. that'll be just one more you have to get past in a few days.
i hit publish 15 minutes ago and we're already #1 for "powered by haggis"
http://www.google.com/search?q=powered+ … amp;num=10
daily star? get out of the way numpties.
sorry wrong link, on .co.uk it is, the sites targeted at the UK in Google Webmaster Tools
ok blog post in at #70 ish for SEO Scotland.
http://www.google.co.uk/search?q=seo+sc … 0&sa=N
the main site page will join it in a few days (indented listing) and they'll settle around page 2 or 3 in a couple of weeks.
how did I know I could do this? ALLINTITLE: and experience.
To save yourself from getting all technical with keyword tools and stuff like that just look at the search results and see which sites show up with that exact phrase in the title, then see how many advertisers are showing up bidding on the term, then go all the way to the bottom of the search page and look at the section that says "searches related to (your keyword)"
You can also use the search drop down list of recommended long tail key phrases.
Then write up a hub, squidoo lens, and see how it does for a week. This will save you on all the technical research stuff.
perfectly true and suitable for the vast majority.
but sometimes we have to make a site rank for keyword, no question, we have to be top 3 if not #1.
hubs arent really going to tell you much then on difficult terms.
I'm jumping in here because we seem to have at least 2 seo experts, to ask them what is the story with link wheels. I've been writing them, and then I googled them for interest. A lot of sites seem to suggest that link wheels don't work on google anymore - that google can see right through them for what they are and downgrade the links.
But none of my articles are spun, and each article is on a new but related subject.
Is it still good seo to connect them via a wheel-type scenario?I haven't actually got a wheel set up yet.
I wrote 7 articles on the one subject before and tried to spread them around, all pointing back to my main article on hubpages.
That didn't work, because on several sites I couldn't figure out how to insert a backlink. Hmmm.
I now have a total of 11 articles on another subject - most not published. They are all inter-related and not yet linked to each other. Is this still good seo in google's eyes, that's what I want to know?
randomly, theres a brand new hub about that here. yes its mine, if it's too promotional mods please delete. (he did ask)
the information contained is from a supplier we've been testing for, the basic answer is yes they can be quite effective if you do it right.
Thanks for that info, Business info. I 'll save it for reading again tomorrow, but I do still think the info was aimed at webmasters with one or two sites.
I find the hardest thig with Hubpages is that each hub could be considered an individual site, so when you have a lot of hubs, backlinking them is difficult because you have so many urls to input.
The work of backlinking a link wheel could be fractioned by also building a capstone hub, and only backlinking it and not the others, taking that the capstone hub is already carrying the links of all the others?
The whole link wheel thing makes sense, Google possobly seeing it as a link wheel and then dropping it makes sense, capstone hubs make sense.
Maybe with the subject I am currently up to number 11 on now could easily be expanded to 25, and I should split them into separate groups and experiment to see what works here?
Hi Izzy, what I do is have an article that is doing well such as on Go Articles or Ezine Articles and build my link wheel to that one article. Now that article has one outgoing link to the page I want to promote. I link all the articles I am building the linkwheel for and have one link from each linkwheel article pointing to the performing article.
Just a little thinking outside the square.
Terry, thanks for that. I want to know if internal linking can work as well. I've tried building an external link wheel and don't want to go down that road again. Am still waiting on shetoldme releasing an article I wrote for them that was part of my last linkwheel, which never saw the light of day though them.
Obviously if I can make Hubpages work for me, I can afford to buy my own domain and put everything I have learned here to good use.
Maybe I am too old or something, but my brain can't cope with too much information. Until I tried my last linkwheel I'd no idea that it would be so hard to write on other platforms - well not the writing, I did that in Word, but learning to post somewhere else is hard. In some I found space for one outgoing link, but for my link wheel to work, I needed two.
I know how to use Hubpages, that is why I want to now try building a link wheel here, with all the aricles published here. I know, not good practice, all the eggs in one basket, but at the end of the day I am writing about something I know very well and could easily re-write without needing external references.
Coming back to your original question.....
You say that the keyword has no competition in the keyword tool, if you are referring to the little green bar in the tool then that is the advertisers competition, not the actual competition for websites trying to grab their share of the keyword from the search engines...
Do an actual search in google, look at how many results there are, do the top few results have the keyword in their addresses? Do the top few results have high page rank (4+)? This will tell you the competition for the keyword in question not the google keyword tool
I agree that allintitle is a great SINGLE METRIC to use when looking at competition. No SEO will argue that the title tag is not by far the most important ON PAGE ranking factor and has a massive impact on your rankings for any keywords contained within.
I use allintitle results alongside cost per click, OCI and various SEOMoz scores to assess competition.
there are no any keyword that competition is 0 and massive traffic.
you can easily check the actual competition from intitle:keyword in google to get eject competition of keyword.
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