Dealing With Rude Hubbers When Making Constructive Criticism

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   Garrett Mickleyposted 14 years ago

   Today I posted a comment on a hub that confused me. I'm curious if I'm in the wrong here.  I was confused by a section of the hub and I said:
   
   Why does it say "We sent New York journalist Sam Merrill (whose previous "Playboy Interviews" have included those with Ed Asner, Roy Scheider, Karl Hess, Joseph Heller, and Roone Arledge) to visit Carlin as he prepared to launch what he himself has called his "third career." Merrill reports:"? I don't get what the relevance there is, and you don't continue on with the interview. And who is the "we" you're talking about?
   
   I was then informed by the writer that the interview he didn't continue with was actually in a video, which was ABOVE this paragraph in the Hub; it did not come after the colon here, but BEFORE it.  I was confused.  The answer to my comment was:
   
   Well, Mr. Mickley, sorry I was late for class - but there's other parts to the video, my dear officious one.
   
   Is that your smile?
   
   I replied:
   
   No need to be rude, I was just stating that I didn't understand it.
   
   It was a little confusing to me that the call to action is below the video its self, which leads me to believe that I should continue down, not turn around and go back up to watch the video. Plus, it didn't say anything about the video.
   
   And his reply back to that:
   
   Thanks soooo much for your observations today, Mr. Mickley. Can't wait to see your next hub. It should be damn near perfect, right?
   
   Chill.
   
   I'm just curious if I'm in the wrong here.  I wasn't even really trying to make a constructive criticism at first, I just wanted to understand the Hub better.
   
   Thanks for your time!

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      Daniel Carterposted 14 years agoin reply to this

      If your intent was good, then it was just where the other hubber is with himself, mostly. Some people are overly defensive for a variety of reasons, and no matter what you do, when they decide something about you, it's terribly hard to undo that opinion they made of you.
      
      I think it's good for you to consider that his comments were far more about him than they are about you. I think you can walk away unscathed by this, and not have to worry about anything. If the hubber leaves comments on your hub not to your liking, you don't have to accept them.
      
      Let it be his drama, not yours.

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      1. 75

         Garrett Mickleyposted 14 years agoin reply to this

         Thanks for your reply. I know how to be the better person and just walk away, and that's just what I did.  I wanted to make sure I wasn't doing something wrong, though, so I posted this.

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            Daniel Carterposted 14 years agoin reply to this

            Good for you. You seem to be that kind of guy.
            

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      Stevennix2001posted 14 years agoin reply to this

      hey some people just can't take criticism i guess.  i don't think you said anything wrong, as i've received much more offensive comments in the past about my hubs.  therefore, yours is just fine if you want me to be honest.  all i can tell you is to not take it seriously, and walk away.  if its any consolation, i had a very similar experience happen on here once.  it was on a well known hubbers hub on pettitioning to get family guy canceled.  sure, i can understand his view points, but he got offended by everything i said, even though all i did was merely disagree with him and try to rationally debate him using common logic.  however, he still got offended anyway, so i walked away.  here's the hub if you you want to see what im talking about, as the comments i left on his profile should give you a general idea what im talking about.
      
      http://hubpages.com/hub/Petition-The-FC … Violations
      
      
      anyways, i wouldn't let it discourage you, as not all hubbers are like that.

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      Kapalbilityposted 14 years agoin reply to this

      What I do when I get rude people is to stop dealing with them pronto. And I do that at the first sign of fangs being shown...

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         MKayoposted 14 years agoin reply to this

         I agree, seems to work best with some folks.

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2. 75

   Aficionadaposted 14 years ago

   There are some prickly personalities here (as there are everywhere), and some people have hot buttons that differ from most other people's.
   
   From what you have posted here, I don't see that you were in the wrong at all, except that I myself would probably not have said "No need to be rude," unless it was someone I already knew fairly well, or unless I was already pretty het up about something else, or.... (Who knows, maybe I actually would have said that. ) But that's just me.
   
   I wouldn't worry about it, but I also would probably give this Hubber a wide berth until you have a chance to get to know them better.

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      Garrett Mickleyposted 14 years agoin reply to this

      I've decided I just won't read/support/rate his hubs. He hasn't come to my hubs and started harassing me or anything. I figured I'd just drop it and let it go, but I wanted to make sure I wasn't doing anything wrong, so I posted this forum post.

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         Aficionadaposted 14 years agoin reply to this

         This sounds wise.
         
         There are some wonderful people here.  But there are some real kooks too, occasionally.  I have my mental list of the ones I avoid, and if we (kook and I) end up in a forum together, I try to just quietly leave without engaging at all.
         
         But at the other end of the spectrum are some that I start off thinking are goofs or jerks or idiots, and they turn out to be pretty terrific people with amazing life stories.  Often it's best just to take some time to get to know people, and internet communication doesn't really encourage that as much as it encourages the quick, knee-jerk response that this guy seems to have shown.
         
         It sounds like you've done the right thing and like you're making good decisions about how to proceed.  Good wishes to you!

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         aguasilverposted 14 years agoin reply to this

         If you offer some advice about a hub you don't understand or find confusing, and it's refused or you are insulted, don't worry (but don't stop offering advice).
         
         Most hubbers welcome any comments, especially if they are being told that some folk may not 'get' the hubs message.
         
         Whoever blew you off is the loser, they have a hub that may be defective, and defective = can't be bothered to read it = low read score.
         
         Their bad fortune, you did it right, enjoy!
         
         John

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            Garrett Mickleyposted 14 years agoin reply to this

            Thanks, I definitely welcome any tips on my hubs!

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   Shadesbreathposted 14 years ago

   Just don't read that person anymore.  There's a million hubbers, don't waste a moment worrying about one that rankles easily.  Go read my hubs instead.

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      Garrett Mickleyposted 14 years agoin reply to this

      I shall!

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   Flightkeeperposted 14 years ago

   What did you say that was constructive?

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      Garrett Mickleyposted 14 years agoin reply to this

      Is it not constructive to point out something that doesn't make sense to the reader?

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         Flightkeeperposted 14 years agoin reply to this

         No, it's just criticism.

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            Garrett Mickleyposted 14 years agoin reply to this

            Well, then, I guess that's what it was.
            
            If someone told me something didn't make sense on my hub and why, I'd take it as an opportunity to better my hub.

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               Flightkeeperposted 14 years agoin reply to this

               You didn't have constructive criticism you just criticized.  The point of this thread is that you were confused because you thought you were constructively criticizing them but all you really did was criticize them and they thought you were rude and you were.  If you wanted to constructively criticize you should say what was bad and how to make it better.

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                  Garrett Mickleyposted 14 years agoin reply to this

                  "It was a little confusing to me that the call to action is below the video its self, which leads me to believe that I should continue down, not turn around and go back up to watch the video. Plus, it didn't say anything about the video."
                  
                  That was what was bad, and how to make it better.

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                     Flightkeeperposted 14 years agoin reply to this

                     No you didn't say anything about how to make it better, you just said that it was confusing to you and that you realized what it is they meant the reader to do.

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                        Garrett Mickleyposted 14 years agoin reply to this

                        Yeah I see what you're saying now.
                        
                        I guess it's my bad to give the writer the benefit of the doubt that they can use common sense to deduct a solution from my observations.

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                     Pearldiverposted 14 years agoin reply to this

                     I agree with Flightkeeper on this post mate.
                     Perhaps what You are missing is that people from other parts of the world do not necessarily think like you! Therefore your comment to many (including me (from NZ) ) is likely to be taken as Rude.
                     They have also responded rudely.  Neither of you have taken the time to consider that while trying to communicate effectively!
                     Maybe it's a good idea for everyone here to consider that point huh?
                     I know many don't initially understand my accent; if they don't initially take the time to listen
                     
                     Do you Know What I'm Saying Here Constructively or Do you consider it being Critical?

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            psycheskinnerposted 14 years agoin reply to this

            Criticism with the intent of helping is constructive.

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               Flightkeeperposted 14 years agoin reply to this

               Not necessarily.  How do you know a criticism was meant to be constructive if intent was not obvious?

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5. 75

   Aficionadaposted 14 years ago

   Just curiosity, flightkeeper, but what do you consider to be the definition of "constructive criticism"? 
   
   Maybe I need to see the entire exchange and the hub itself, but based on what I have seen in this forum, I don't see criticism of any kind at all (other than the one use of the word "rude," and even that was justified).
   
   All that I see from GM is just some honest questions about things that didn't make sense, and he said above (and it sounded to me) like he never intended them even as constructive criticism, but simply as clarification.
   
   Where is the criticism - what were the words?

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      Garrett Mickleyposted 14 years agoin reply to this

      I posted the entire exchange that was on the hub, but I can provide a link to the hub if wished.
      
      I didn't want to put this person's name out there or anything so I didn't post it initially.

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         Aficionadaposted 14 years agoin reply to this

         IMO, you can hold off on that. I don't see it as being necessary for me.  But maybe others need to see it.  See what other response you get before you decide.

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      Flightkeeperposted 14 years agoin reply to this

      Hi Aficionada, it's more about style.  A criticism is what went wrong.  A constructive criticism to me is to say what went wrong and suggest a solution to make it better.

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6. 75

   Aficionadaposted 14 years ago

   flightkeeper, it seems to me that maybe you are confusing who said/wrote what.
   
   Garrett, would you reconstruct the exchange again (without bold) and indicate who wrote which sentences?

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      Garrett Mickleyposted 14 years agoin reply to this

      Sure
      
      ME:
      "Why does it say "We sent New York journalist Sam Merrill (whose previous "Playboy Interviews" have included those with Ed Asner, Roy Scheider, Karl Hess, Joseph Heller, and Roone Arledge) to visit Carlin as he prepared to launch what he himself has called his "third career." Merrill reports:"? I don't get what the relevance there is, and you don't continue on with the interview. And who is the "we" you're talking about?"
      
      
      HIM:
      "Well, Mr. Mickley, sorry I was late for class - but there's other parts to the video, my dear officious one.
      
      Is that your smile?"
      
      
      ME:
      "No need to be rude, I was just stating that I didn't understand it.
      
      It was a little confusing to me that the call to action is below the video its self, which leads me to believe that I should continue down, not turn around and go back up to watch the video. Plus, it didn't say anything about the video."
      
      
      HIM:
      "Thanks soooo much for your observations today, Mr. Mickley. Can't wait to see your next hub. It should be damn near perfect, right?
      
      Chill."

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7. 57

   C.J. Wrightposted 14 years ago

   I tend to keep my comments idea and content based. I don't comment on syntax or layout unless asked directly. Gramar is not my strong suit anyway.

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      Stevennix2001posted 14 years agoin reply to this

      i never comment either on grammar unless it's that freaking bad.  of course, im still working on mine, so i shouldn't say anything.  lol. 
      
      as far as layout on hubpages goes, i don't even comment on it since i don't know what the writers intent was, as i just assume everyone on hubpages is picky like me when it comes to format.  yes, im very picky, as im very selective on the videos and pics i choose to go with my hubs.  thus, i always assume everyone here is the same way, so i never comment on it in other hubs.

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         Garrett Mickleyposted 14 years agoin reply to this

         Yeah, grammar is something I don't like to criticize.
         
         Now I've learned that Layout is something I shouldn't make verbal observations on, either.
         
         That being said, all of you should feel free to criticize everything, ESPECIALLY LAYOUT, when it comes to my Hubs.  All I desire is to know how to make them better.

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            Stevennix2001posted 14 years agoin reply to this

            you think i don't want to get better?  i never said that.  i just said i don't criticize layout and grammar, but i don't mind if someone were to do that to me, as i do try to get better and better through each progressive hub.  in fact, that's one of the reasons why im trying to emulate roger ebert and peter travers a lot more in my writings in film reviews, as i always try to become better.  that's another reason why i try to make my hubs a lot more elaborate than every other film review hub on hubpages, so i can try to think of what my competitors (yes we're all competing here believe it or not on hubpages) aren't doing and exploit it to the  best of my ability.

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               Garrett Mickleyposted 14 years agoin reply to this

               I didn't think you don't want to get better, I was just stating here that all of you are welcome to criticize all that you want on my hubs.
               
               Also, I think imitating established people like Ebert and Travers is an excellent idea.  I've read a couple reviews of yours and I think they were very well done.  Integrating what is proven to work (Ebert) with your own style (your hubs) is very effective, in my opinion.

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                  Stevennix2001posted 14 years agoin reply to this

                  thanks. i appreciate you saying that.  i'll be sure to check out your work too. 

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   Website Examinerposted 14 years ago

   The defensive reaction you received may reflect that the Hubber has something to hide. More specifically, the portion of text you quoted and asked about happens to be copied ad verbum from a website, Friends of cannabis.com, in a post published originally in 2008.

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      Garrett Mickleyposted 14 years agoin reply to this

      I thought it seemed unnatural, but when I google it, I don't find anything other than the Hub.

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         Website Examinerposted 14 years agoin reply to this

         http://www.friendsofcannabis.com/direct … d=99999999

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            Garrett Mickleyposted 14 years agoin reply to this

            Very nice, thank you.

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         cosetteposted 14 years agoin reply to this

         
         
         
         here's a good plagiarism checker. and it's free for a certain number of searches, then it's like 5 bucks for tons more.
         
         http://www.copyscape.com
         
         and you were not rude in the slightest. you were confused and asking a question, so don't feel bad.
         
         good luck out there!

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   Aficionadaposted 14 years ago

   I found the hub, and I read part of it.  I didn't read the whole thing because it isn't a subject that interests me enough (a little bit goes a long way).  But I did read to the point where the confusion occurred, and Garrett is absolutely right.
   
   The hub has separate sections (capsules) about different comedians; and there are videos over to the right side of the text, related to the specific comedian in that hub capsule.
   
   In the one he referenced, the statement "Merrill reports:" is at the end of one capsule, far below the spot where the accompanying video is located. Nothing in the statement indicates that what "Merrill reports:" would be found in a video or that it would be above that spot.  Why would anyone assume that what follows a colon would not be in print (as opposed to a video) and that it would be up above the colon, unless the writer gives a clue to that effect?
   
   In addition, immediately below the "Merrill reports:" spot, there is a capsule on another comedian along with a video placed right there, just below the colon.  So, if anyone did assume that the colon was supposed to lead to a video, it would look like the following video was the one intended.
   
   Frankly, I still don't see any criticism.  GM asked a question, received a snide response, then tried to explain himself and why he had asked the question in the first place.  He didn't set out to say, Here's what's wrong.  He asked a question.
   
   I'm standing firm on this.  There was no wrong on Garrett's part and no criticism either.
   
   [Took me awhile to write this, and I missed some posts.  Good point about the defensiveness, WE.]

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      Garrett Mickleyposted 14 years agoin reply to this

      Thank you for taking the time to write and post this.

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    raisingmeposted 14 years ago

    new mantra - 'thou shalt not take it personally'.  Speaking of personally - I am reluctant to comment on mistakes, grammar or clarity until I get to know the other hubber through our interactions - then I am able to evaluate whether my 'help' or questions would be welcome or not.  Also personally, when I have found mistakes in my hubs, often quite sometime after they have been published I find myself wishing that someone had pointed them out to me sooner.  I find it is more difficult to proof read my own work than to pick up the work of someone else.  I've had a couple of emails re mistakes and I greatly appreciated them. 
    
    In this case it sounds like the other hubber may have been a bit glib and did not like being spotted!  I hope you don't back off helping or questioning your fellow hubbers because one chicken cried fowl...er' foul!

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    paradigmsearchposted 14 years ago

    Between:
    
    "Miscommunication can cause more problems than all other factors combined. Always examine a perceived negative statement twice; it may not be negative at all. Give others the benefit of the doubt."
    
    And
    
    ...

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    WillGranderposted 14 years ago

    "Deconstructive" criticism is anything on the order of "Wow, this hub sucks. Stop writing." This is the kind of stuff we want to avoid.
    
    Any well-intentioned comment about something that was confusing, hard to follow, etc., automatically contains suggestions for solution just by the very nature of the criticism. The critique says, "Hey, I didn't get this," and the author should read this as, "Ah, maybe I should clear up this section." I don't think anyone needs to necessarily spell out "HERE IS A SOLUTION" for the cricitism to be "constructive."
    
    Criticism isn't a four letter word, either. It's the very lifeblood of intellectual life.

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       WillGranderposted 14 years agoin reply to this

       For example, someone can be "critical" of something or "critically read" a text and have nothing but good things to say about it. This is not a contradiction, either!

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       Flightkeeperposted 14 years agoin reply to this

       Well if they want to be constructive they should spell it out.  Just saying I don't get it isn't going to help, you have to make clear what it is that you don't understand and offer suggestions otherwise it's just a criticism.

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          WillGranderposted 14 years agoin reply to this

          Sure, more detail is always helpful, but ultimately it's the writer's job to improve the piece.

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             Flightkeeperposted 14 years agoin reply to this

             Of course it is, but a criticism by itself isn't helpful because it's subjective.  You need to give some kind of context to help the writer make an improvement.

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          WillGranderposted 14 years agoin reply to this

          Also, "just a criticism" sounds like a bad word. Criticism is a wonderful thing! It means someone's taking you seriously. And it's the best (only?) way to get better.

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             Flightkeeperposted 14 years agoin reply to this

             Noone said that criticism was a bad word but it can be unhelpful if that's all you do.

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                WillGranderposted 14 years agoin reply to this

                I think we're arguing semantics here. Let's use a fake example.
                
                If I said to you, "The transition between your paragraph on the history of goat farming and your paragraph on modern methods was unclear. How exactly do the two paragraphs link together? Why does history matter in this case?"
                
                Is this a helpful or not helpful comment?

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                   Flightkeeperposted 14 years agoin reply to this

                   Of course that is helpful and constructve.  But if all you said was "The transition between your paragraph on the history of goat farming and your paragraph on modern methods was unclear." Is that helpful?

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                      WillGranderposted 14 years agoin reply to this

                      Sure, it could be. I would go back, given that comment, and reread the essay, focusing on that section. I might find, "hey, you know what, I think that comment was right." Or I could say, "Nah, I disagree, I think I make it quite clear, the commenter just didn't read closely enough." All the while a conversation can occur between author and critic (hopefully), narrowing down what exactly the problem is.
                      
                      I think we can agree that "LOL what the hell is this, your essay is a mess, I can't even follow you between paragraphs" is a bad comment. Often it's a question of tone, something that's hard to discern on the Internet.

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                         Flightkeeperposted 14 years agoin reply to this

                         Definitely tone can be a problem.

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    JON EWALLposted 14 years ago

    hubbers
    To err is to be human, we hubbers aren't perfect, we do sometimes make mistakes. I would prefer someone who points out  inaccuracies to be civil and construction.
    At times some hubbers fail to recognize to keep their comments professional and less confronting.
    I try to smother the radical ones with love and compassion.they really get angry and hostile at times.

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14. 68

    alternate poetposted 14 years ago

    You clearly made constructive criticism and whoever the other party is they replied in a rude and ignorant manner.
    
    Ignore them and follow intelligent and more mature hubbers.

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    mikelongposted 14 years ago

    Flightkeeper forwarded the premise that the original poster did not "constructively criticize" another person's article.
    
    I beg to differ....
    
    This very statement by the original poster:
    
    
    "It was a little confusing to me that the call to action is below the video its self, which leads me to believe that I should continue down, not turn around and go back up to watch the video. Plus, it didn't say anything about the video."
    
    Is absolutely constructive. At its very basic this message provides another person's perspective (insult and berating free).
    
    If one is trying to be a communicator, there is hardly a better source of perspective to gain than that of the potential audience....especially when it is evident that the reader/listener is not fully fluent or well versed in English (or whatever the language in particular happens to be).
    
    I have dealt with people (like Sab Oh..who is strangely absent these days) who like nothing more than to leave snide comments on hubs to try to get under the skin....and I do not see this through the original poster's words...
    
    I'll have to go check out that hub...

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    alternate poetposted 14 years ago

    On reflection - I think you were more than kind with your constructive criticism,  I am just thinking back over the number of times I stopped myself making comments like - what a load of unresearched, badly written, mis-spelled garbage that is not even right in any single point.  Now that would be criticism !

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       johnwindbellposted 14 years agoin reply to this

       Goodness, my ears were burning last night, now I know why. Seems like you all had fun 'spanking' me. Would I be aloud to say you all were criticizing me, probably not.  The guy caught me at a bad time, plain and simple, end of story. He could have been more tactful, civil, "Enjoyed the hub, very funny stuff, always liked Carlin, but ......" 
       
       Funny, talk about being officious and making a mountain out of a mole hill; the guy should be in politics. He got his wish - the hub page is now toast. And you all voted for him.
       
       You had it right in the beginning, Danial Carter, it was just where the other hubber is with himself.

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          Garrett Mickleyposted 14 years agoin reply to this

          Never did I "wish" for the Hub to be removed.  No one here "voted" for me to have it removed, nor did I do anything to have it removed.
          
          It was pointed out by another Hubber up above that your content was not actually yours, you had copied and pasted from another website. That is against HubPages' Terms Of Use.  Perhaps it was removed for that reason?

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             Website Examinerposted 14 years agoin reply to this

             I don't see a hub being unpublished for this reason unless the copyright owner filed a DMCA complaint with HubPages.

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                Garrett Mickleyposted 14 years agoin reply to this

                I'm curious why else a hub we be unpublished, then.
                
                I always thought if you were copying content from somewhere else, it would be removed.  Google frowns upon duplicate content quite a bit.

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                   Website Examinerposted 14 years agoin reply to this

                   HubPages has no way of knowing who wrote the original content unless there is a DMCA complaint. HubPages' only remedy - unless there is a DMCA complaint successfully filed - is to penalize the hub as duplicate content; it remains published. This is clearly laid out in the FAQs.
                   
                   In case some Hubber solely or primarily had hubs with copied content, the entire account could be flagged and banned, but that is a different matter.

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                      Garrett Mickleyposted 14 years agoin reply to this

                      When I first started here, I got hubs flagged for duplicate content. The content was my own, from my old site, copied and pasted here (this was before I knew anything about SEO and thought that something stupid like that would be beneficial).
                      
                      I certainly did not file a DMCA on my self, so they must have some way of finding duplicate content w/out being tipped off.  I don't know how else they would have found my own content.

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                         Website Examinerposted 14 years agoin reply to this

                         This is an automatic filter based on search robots. The FAQs clearly state that the duplicate content penalty can be imposed even if you wrote the content yourself. You could have written both versions, obtained a license, or copied unlawfully - absent a DMCA complaint HubPages will not distinguish between these scenarios.

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                            Garrett Mickleyposted 14 years agoin reply to this

                            I understand, and I've read the FAQ's (however long ago that was).
                            
                            But my hub that was flagged was not visible to others.  I had linked to it from my facebook and after it was flagged for duplicate content, my friends said they all got a "Hub is not published" page, yet before that it was fine (so I know I DID, in fact, publish the hub in the first place).
                            
                            It only took like 3 days for them to catch that it was duplicate content, too.

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          Daniel Carterposted 14 years agoin reply to this

          It's really about perceptions, isn't it?
          Obviously a read through can be taken many different ways depending on where the reader is in his/her mind.
          
          Coming to an understanding can defray a lot of negative feelings. Getting to that place can also be complicated at times. I make no judgments in this case. If I appeared to have done so previously, I was in error.

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    Website Examinerposted 14 years ago

    Johnwindbell, good of you to contribute your version of events.

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       johnwindbellposted 14 years agoin reply to this

       Thank you WE. Sorry to take up your time for this.
       
       I enjoy hub pages and want to comply. I am sorry if I hurt anybody's feelings with my words. I should have an editor by my side at all times to filter my work as well as my words. At times I'm too honest and outspoken for some and they get caught up in how I say it, take it the wrong way, wear their heart on their sleeve, and loose what I say entirely.
       
       This is my last comment here, I have work to do.
       But please don't stop sensationalizing this episode; my hub hits have doubled. Oh, that's why this was all started! 
       
       Thank you again,
       JWB

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          Flightkeeperposted 14 years agoin reply to this

          Good for you JohnWind, there's a silver lining after all.

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    thisisoliposted 14 years ago

    While I would agree that a constructive criticism usually includes an action which could improve upon a mistake, in some cases pointing out a flaw can in itself be constructive criticism since it highlights the problem to an author who may have missed it.

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