Help Me Understand Keyword selection more...

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  1. Shadesbreath profile image77
    Shadesbreathposted 15 years ago

    Ok, so I want to pose a question about key words and I would like to have it discussed in my language.  So... this question is for you SEO people and key word people. 

    First, the set up:

    Ok, lets say I want to write an article on the proper use of the semicolon.  (I'm an English geek, get over it lol.)   Ok, so I search "use semincolon," "using semicolon," "semicolon use" and several others and get a wad of stuff on the subject.  Some of it is ok; some are too long; some are lame; some miss important points...   so, I think I can do it better.

    The question:

    So how do I find a way to write into THAT area?  Are the keywords just spent from overuse and there's just no way to actually add to the conversation anymore from the standpoint of the front page on Google?  Or is their a way?  I mean, people looking to get a quick answer on it aren't going to type in some long, nebulous keyword phrase, and even if some do, I'm still relegated to the lower 78th spot which is meaningless for adsense revenue.

    The follow up:

    So if you do have a way to generate the right keyword(s) or there is some tool that you use to do it (and I've looked at Goodle's Adwords keyword tool - which is a total mystery btw), I'd like to see how it works (which may prompt a hub rather than a forum response, which is fine, just use mine as the test subject and record it so I can watch it happen in terms that make sense in my universe).

  2. Misha profile image63
    Mishaposted 15 years ago

    To answer the immediate question - Google does not care much about your content, as long as you have keywords in the title and text body mentioned at least once. Backlinks mean way more for Google.

    All other questions on the topic are answered here:

    Warning - it is much longer than even the longest hub big_smile

    1. Shadesbreath profile image77
      Shadesbreathposted 15 years agoin reply to this

      That's what I was afraid of.  /sigh.  That strategy dooms the world to mediocre or worse information.

  3. Lissie profile image75
    Lissieposted 15 years ago

    my first thought was "where to put semi colon" and I got this lame page … colon.html

    Iwould probably do "semi colon usage"- but thats because Im a science major and a internet geek! 

    To be honest its not really a buying keyword in the sense that its more an informaitonal request than a request that will be satisfied by an ad. 


  4. Shalini Kagal profile image51
    Shalini Kagalposted 15 years ago

    Here are some tools you could use: … tion.aspx?

    You won't get too much for something like 'semicolon' though smile

  5. Shalini Kagal profile image51
    Shalini Kagalposted 15 years ago

    Misha - I beg to disagree - I think Google does care - you do SEO with mathematical precision and you do find your ratings going up. What I don't like ( as tho' anyone cares lol!)is the fact that a lot of SEO copy which could be written well reads like it's stuffed. Think this calls for a hub!

    1. Shadesbreath profile image77
      Shadesbreathposted 15 years agoin reply to this

      Well, as a writer and not an SEO person, I can tell you, I think writers and SEO people would do well to work together.  I see so much horrific stuff doing very well and so much beautifully written stuff just vanish.  I go to the Latest hubs window and (after digging through many screens of poop) find these gorgeous pieces that just die away.  It's like watching shooting stars die.  Or maybe watching a cow crap on a poppy.  Yeah.  That's probably closer to it.

    2. Misha profile image63
      Mishaposted 15 years agoin reply to this

      When I started these games I spent several months on on-page optimization, until I finally came to conclusion that aside from a couple of basic things it means nothing. I don't bother with it since, I think my time (which is really scarce) is much more efficiently spent on building backlinks smile

  6. Marisa Wright profile image85
    Marisa Wrightposted 15 years ago

    Shadesbreath, I agree with you.   I find it very sad that the most recommended way to make money online is currently:

    1.  Create a blog or website to sell something.

    2.  Write an article with good keywords - then rewrite it umpteen different ways and post it on umpteen different article sites with a link back to your blog or website.

    3.  Keep doing (2) over and over again.

    In other words, flood the internet with rehashed content, which doesn't even have to be all that well-written provided it's got the right keywords.  OK, I know one person writing a few dozen articles isn't exactly a flood, but I'm sure you get what I mean.

    1. Maddie Ruud profile image72
      Maddie Ruudposted 15 years agoin reply to this

      That's not what's worked for me, and it's not what I'm going to recommend in forthcoming hub #200.

      1. Shadesbreath profile image77
        Shadesbreathposted 15 years agoin reply to this

        Yeah, but you're like a super web ninja.  We're talking about regular humans here.

      2. Rochelle Frank profile image90
        Rochelle Frankposted 15 years agoin reply to this

        OH boy! We are WAITING. I will plead total dumbness on the subject.

  7. Shalini Kagal profile image51
    Shalini Kagalposted 15 years ago

    Great imagery Shadesbreath!

    I used to be a firm believer in never the twain meeting - till I realised that in the great big Google sea, you needed SEO to stay afloat. There can be a happy marriage between good content and SEO - just needs a bit of work. Otherwise, like you said, the really wonderful stuff sinks to where no one sees.

  8. Shadesbreath profile image77
    Shadesbreathposted 15 years ago

    I guess I need to find me some SEO expert who can't write for crap and team up somehow.  I'm pretty sure I'm too lazy to learn it; everytime I try my eyes roll up into my head and I start thinking about Keira Knightley or how many beers I still have in the fridge.

  9. Shalini Kagal profile image51
    Shalini Kagalposted 15 years ago

    Misha - I agree with you that backlinks are of paramount importance. What I was also trying to say is that SEO and good writing need not be mutually exclusive smile

  10. Misha profile image63
    Mishaposted 15 years ago

    No question about that, for sure. People won't stay on you page if it's all keyword stuffed babbling - and search engines will pay attention to this in the nearest future, if they did not start already smile

  11. Shadesbreath profile image77
    Shadesbreathposted 15 years ago

    So if I write like ten little mini-articles that point at one of my hubs on like MySpace and FaceBook and blah blah, is that considered "backlinking?"

  12. Mark Knowles profile image59
    Mark Knowlesposted 15 years ago

    If you write good , interesting content, the backlinks will come naturally.

    I never keyword stuff, and rarely do any research. I do do more promotional stuff than I used to, but seriously - I want to spend my time writing.

    Shadesbreath - yes, they would be considered backlinks.

  13. TrophyMan profile image64
    TrophyManposted 15 years ago

    There is 'on-page' optimization and 'off-page' optimization:

    On-page Optimization is getting the keywords on the page, in your title tags, proper linking between pages on the same domain, etc.

    Off-page Optimization is getting backlinks from authority sites with proper keyword anchor text, etc.

    So, since you asked about how to get your HubPage on the first page of Google for a non-money keyword (probably little or no pay-per-click ads for 'semicolon' info) you need to have different TYPES of keywords in your content.

    These different types of keywords are what allow you to cast the widest net for variations on your main theme keyword (semicolons) while not appearing to the search engines (especially Google) like you are 'keyword stuffing' or 'keyword spamming'.

    How do you do this?

    First, you need to know what these different types of keywords are.

    You have your 'Main Theme Keyword' (which can be a phrase of 2-3 words) and then you have variations, some of which are known as 'search engine proven synonyms' (SEPS) and others are just technical long-tails.

    There is a relationship between your Main Theme Keyword (phrase) and these other keyword (phrases).  An example will explain this simply enough:

    If your main theme keyword is: "Tattoo Design"

    You may have SEPS (you can find these by searching Google with a tilde symbol and noting the keyword phrases that appear in BOLD, like this:  ~"tattoo design"  or ~tattoo ~design)

    The SEPS that appear are:
    -tattoo designs
    -celtic designs
    -body art

    So, if your main theme keyword is 'Tattoo Design' (which you put in the title, first paragraph, last paragraph) and then use the keywords 'celtic designs' and 'body art' in your content, Google doesn't penalize you for keyword spamming since you have a VARIETY of DIVERSE keywords in your content.

    Notice how 'tattoo designs' and 'tattoo design' are not as diverse as 'tattoo design' and 'body art'?

    This is what determines how many different kinds of keywords you can put into your content without setting off any red flags.

    I use to do all of this automatically for me.

  14. Shadesbreath profile image77
    Shadesbreathposted 15 years ago

    Hmm, hard to talk about semicolons without using the term repeatedly.  Ok, that's interesting, even if I probably only understand half of it. I think the SEPs thing assumes I am more proficient with researching keywords than I am.  But, I am slowly crawling towards a most remedial semi-understanding of this stuff as time goes by.

    I read this response this morning, and again jsut now.  I'll have to hit it again in a few days after poking around on my keyword tool again.  Thanks.

  15. TrophyMan profile image64
    TrophyManposted 15 years ago

    Another way to think about 'keyword' research is this:

    You want to have as many different keywords in your content as possible, but you want these keywords to be keywords people actually search for, and MORE IMPORTANTLY (if you are trying to sell something online) they should be keywords that CONVERT TO SALES when people find your page by searching on them.

    Whether you are selling something or not, the way to place as many keywords into your content as possible without Google flagging your page/site as 'keyword spam' is to use DIVERSE keywords.

    The AMOUNT of diversity a keyword has to the Main Keyword is determined by how similar the other keyword is to the Main Keyword.

    This similarity is based on whether the secondary keyword has the exact form of one or both (for a 2-word Main Keyword) of the words in the Main Keyword phrase.

    For example:

    Main Keyword:  Tattoo Design

    Secondary Keyword: Celtic Tattoos

    Because the word 'tattoos' appears IN A DIFFERENT FORM ('tattoos' vs. 'tattoo') in the Main Keyword than in the  Secondary Keyword, but 'Celtic' does NOT appear in the Main Keyword AT ALL, these 2 keyword phrases are 'Partially Diverse'.

    Even if the keyword was 'celtic tattoo' (singular), because only 1 of the 2 words are in the Main Keyword, this secondary keyword is partially diverse.

    A keyword like 'Body Art' doesn't share ANY of the words that are in the Main Keyword, so it is 'Purely Diverse'.

    And a keyword like 'Celtic Tattoo Design' is a 'Technical Longtail' because the Main Keyword 'tattoo design' appears exactly in the 3-word keyword 'celtic tattoo design'.  So this isn't diverse at all and just adds another instance of 'tattoo design' to your page.

    Too much of THAT, and you cross the threshold into keyword spamming.  But you want SOME long-tails because people search for these and they are SO SPECIFIC to what the person is looking for that if these long-tail phrases appear in your content, you will easily be on the first page of Google for these (less competition).

    The 1 and 2-word keywords have WAY MORE competition, but they ALSO have way more SEARCHES/TRAFFIC, so they are harder to get ranking for, but the reward is greater too.

    This is why you want to use as many Purely Diverse, Partially Diverse secondary keywords as possible (that people search on).  Google looks at you as if you are a 'subject matter expert' if you use keywords Google KNOWS are part of the lexicon for that subject (as shown by the tilde search in Google)

    The 'SEPS' in your content benefit you by:

    1) allowing you to add more keywords without flagging your content as keyword spam

    2) allowing you to appear in Google's eyes as a 'subject matter expert' because you are using keywords Google knows belong on a page of content about your subject, which allows you to rank higher with fewer backlinks because Google rewards content that is authoritative (as determined by SEPS in your content)


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