In the religious forum, evolution is often written about. There is, as many of you know, vast amounts of theories and ideas on how the world was created. Did God do it, or was it an Alien from outer space? There is even suggestions that life sprang from a hot pool of muck. So when I stumbled upon this Darwin Timeline, and what science has figured out and knows. I thought many of you would enjoy this. It is a very compelling argument to favoring the notion that once man was gloppy-goo. Did man come from the same bacteria that was found fossilized some 3.9 billion years ago? See for yourself and then decide. http://www.sciencenews.org/pictures/dar … arwin.html
By the way, Happy Birthday Darwin ole'boy!
Because God is Jesus' father. He is not only Jesus' father, but Christian's heavenly father too.
Well, if he is a father, he just have to have at least one, may be even more
Loved the line of questioning, Misha. God's an alien, but he seems mean enough (especially in the Old Testament!) to be most guy-like. Do you think women would have done such things to each other?
And before anyone goes nutball on the whole "God's an ET" thing, I'm not being literal. He didn't come from earth, he created the heavens, and by definition...he's an alien 'cause he's not an earthling.
I have a friend who has two daddys I'm a science major. I shouldn't be commenting on this... or maybe I should...
It is at least as valid as saying some non-human male super being with two penises created us even though the OP posted a pretty clear indication that we evolved from simpler organisms.
Life itself and how we are/were created isn't as simple as black and white. Of course we evolved from simpler organisms, no doubt 'bout that! How the Earth first started... no clue. But how organisms change and adapt... got that!
How could you think we evolved from simple organisms? The human brain is smarter than any computer, we have billions of cells in our body continuly dieing, then being made, how could just 'simple organisms' create such a great object?
The earth and all of its inhabitants were created by God, theres no question about that. "In the beginning, God created the heavens and earth" says Genesis 1:1. Read up on the Bible. It gives you all the answers to your questions.
Just because you do not understand it - that will not make it magically go away. We evolved from simple organisms. Deal with it.
I don't really care what your fairy tale says. If you want to take it literally that is your business but don't expect everyone else to just throw away their knowledge and understanding.
Try reading a few science books. You might learn something.
We did not evolve from simple organisms. If you believe that, you are asking to go to hell, im sorry.
The Bible isnt a fariy tale. Its the Word of God, but I dont know why im telling you cause you obviously dont give a rats.
Science books say nothing. All science points to God. You try to find a way the earth way created through science, you will be terribly wrong.
There is no such place as hell, and I am pretty sure your fairy tale doesn't mention anything about going to hell for acquiring scientific knowledge.
The earth wasn't created through science. Science is a tool to help explain how it came about and where we came from.
Oddly enough - you seem quite happy using a scientific "creation" to spread your rubbish. Or are computers exempt from a trip to hell?
Having said that - if heaven is full of people who believe what you do, I am pretty sure I wouldn't want to go anyway.
And I do give a rats. Which is why I am spending a few minutes trying to help you get an education.
Actually my 'fairy tale' does say that if you do not believe Jesus Christ and Lord, you will go to hell. You are not believing.
Exactly, creation is science! If you study science, you should find no other way that everything was created except through creation.
If you dont wanna go thats fine, but I want to personally ask you if you want to know the only true God I know. If you say no, then I will just go find someone else to try and save from the torments of hell.
I do not need saving.
"everything was created through creation"? Seriously - how about a few English lessons while you are brushing up on your science?
And let's face it - you think that we didn't evolve from simple organisms - If you cannot grasp this simple scientific theory and dismiss the mountains of evidence - just exactly what value do you think your opinion on anything has?
John might think that "God" is the reason for the timeline in the first place Mark. If the existence on God is ever proved, be careful that your opinions will not be amounting to nothing more than a heep of crap too.
I suggest you read through the previous posts before jumping in.
Whoa whoa people! Basically... there are different religions right? No person's religion (or lack of religion) is deemed right or wrong. This is the Science Forum. So we're talking about evolution, archaebacteria, simpler organisms, etc. Knock it off with the religion talk. And I said we evolved from "simpler" organisms not "simple". The brain has changed throughout the years... that is evolving from a "simpler organism". The "origin" of where we came from, like initially, I haven't studied enough to voice my opinion. But that article was interesting. And I've said my piece... back to organic chemistry homework.
The Jehovah's were just here knocking on my front door. 2 nice little gray-haired ladies who gave me literature.
I always say thank you and take it. Sometimes I tell them I grew up Catholic. That doesn't always work, though. These particular ladies, I think, could tell just by looking at me that I am a sinner, so didn't spend much time with me.
Someone please address this then:
Scientists agree that you cannot create nor destroy matter or energy, only change its form. How did that matter and energy come to be then to form the big bang? That matter and energy had to come from somewhere. Some say it formed from gases being heated then cooled, gas is matter, you cannot create nor destroy matter, where did that gas come from? You can't heat gas without energy, where did your energy come from? It wasn't simply there! How could it simply be there?
Scientists pretend to have it all figured out, but they never address the real beginning. They say a big bang occurred and evolution ensued. That's fine, but where did the making of the big bang come from? You needed matter and energy, but your scientific laws say that it cannot be created nor destroyed.
Without properly addressing the truest beginning I find the scientific "explanation" just as silly as some find religious beliefs. You can't start at the middle of the story and explain forward.
You know, honestly, the best scientists don't flirt with these conundrums. They only seek to test and describe the theories that either they or someone else has started in journals and the likes.
Many people don't realize a fair majority of scientists are in fact rather religious. Indeed, many have said by exploring our universe and how it works they only become more ardent that there had to been a creator.
But they're not interested in debating these merits, only writing down and describing their findings. Everything else is semantics.
Now many scientists are atheists, but then again, many great scientists and philosophers themselves were clergy.
So stop trying to start a holy war with the "who." Science is all about the "how" and "why." We'll all figure out who when we pass on.
Many scientists have tried to prove creation, God, and the Bible wrong but they have all failed. Some scientists have even become Christians out of the whole thing because they cannot prove all those things didnt occur!
I certainly don't intend on a holy war I simply pose information. But I agree that there are many fantastic scientists that are Christians as well as many other religions. I've found that scientific information, especially in quantum physics, had helped to expand my belief in God. I always come in peace, so if anything I say ever sounds rigid or angry please forgive me for not being more concise in my wording.
Could you give us an example of how scientific information expanded your belief of God?
Thanks! I get a dose of laughter everyday with my newsprint.
Ah, and sorry I missed your question John.
In the sense that life is a miracle, I've been open to religion all my life. At the end of the day, however, I tend to think more in terms of Mark.
But considering that scientists have found a region of our brain that can induce a "religious" experience, what came first...the chicken or the egg?
I try to maintain a child-like innocence. I was that kid that everyone hated...always asking who, what, where, when, why. But now that I've become adapt and have grown to explain the drive for me to do this, I can now ask more direct questions.
So...I guess what I'm trying to say is..it fascinates me how religion has shaped our world, my life, and those all around us. Is there something after we die? I don't know, and unless the skitzo guy on the corner near my house is the second coming (no, I'm not lying, we call him The Preacher.) I'm not going to bother to find out until I'm laid to rest.
But I try to establish everyday a better grasp on my life, and how I'm affecting myself and those around me. I try to encourage, to learn, to share. Because if there is a pearly gate, at least I know I'll have a good rapport card.
And on a completely divergent note...
Anyone know where Colebabie lives?
Oh, and one more thing. Someone asked about how something could become nothing. Don't you find it odd, that in the end, both the scientific community and the religious one believe that we just "came" to be? A worshiper may accept God as always being here, and to always be here.
But what is always here? Our perceptions, our interactions, and our emotions. If you want to truly understand how "something" can come from "nothing," then write a poem. Where did it come from?
And honestly, try looking at this video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XjsgoXvnStY
Its the craziest 12 minutes I've ever enjoyed. More to the point, to quote my paper "The Universe and Humanity," what scientists believe happened started out something like this:
"Consider that at one time in the universe, in a time before time, all that we know today existed only as a minute mass of energy and one super force. In an explosion not ever seen before it exploded outwards and sperated the Universe into strong and weak nuclear forces, gravity, and electromagnitism.
Elements began to form and evolve, until stars initiated nuclear forces and ignited, burning brightly for eons and then exploding. We are all on this earth comprised of carbon. All of us, from the tiniest microbes to the largest of whales. As many have noted before, we're all made of elements that have once been part of star cores, asteroids, planets."
To know how this works is to get into quantum theory. And I don't pretend to be readily intelligent enough to regurgitate all of it back to you, but I've done my best.
Quantum theory is really fun, though. And its methods of madness accurately describe how I've come to think and be.
It will be all over when you are laid to rest. You have to decide on this earth whether you will accept God and believe he sent his son Jesus who died on the cross for EVERYONE's sin. If you do not accept this, as well as the Bible and have faith in God, it will be WAY to late to ask for forgiveness. It must happen on this earth.
One question I see alot - If God is God, why did he create us? Why couldn't he just make us in heaven? Thats actually a good question.
My answer is that we are not on right terms with God. God is without sin, but man is full of sin. How can someone with sin live with someone without sin? You will find it impossible. We must ask forgiveness of our sins. We must kneel and pray and ask God to forgive us of our wrongdoings! Then if we do, the joy is that we can live in paradise wit the Lord after we die for all eternity. We will get a new body and a new spirit. If you dont turn to God on this earth before you die, it will be too late.
I must have missed that somewhere on the timeline John.
LOL Evolution does not support what I just wrote above. Thats probably why
I love you, RK.
And I can see where this is going, John. But our line of communication has significantly moved away from this thread's original intention. I'll e-mail you soon.
First off, the question of what came before the big bang is one that has no answer, simply because time did not exist before the big bang. You cannot separate the word "before" from the notion of time. Time only came into existence with the big bang. It is THE beginning of time. We're not mid-story but at the very start.
My understanding is that space and time were both compressed into a single point, a singularity. That single point has both time and space contained within it. So how did it "bang," so to speak?
On an atomic level, quantum events happen that lack cause and effect. These are demonstrable in the laboratory. We have observed on an atomic scale how things simply "happen." This is not an appeal to ignorance. However, their scale is too small for it to affect our daily lives, or to be observable generally. If everything was compressed into a single atomic point, we can presume that it decays. All radioactive things do, yes? The decay was the big bang, which separated space from time. When I say single point of space, I mean single point of space, simply because time was a component of that single point, as were things like matter and energy, which you can't easily separate from the notion of space.
Evolution did not ensue from the big bang. They're separate topics. Everything is post-big bang. Saying evolution happened as a result of the big bang is just like saying Britney Spears topped the charts whenever as a result of the big bang. In a tangential way, yes, but not really.
Sure, you can get theological and ask what came before the Big Bang? You can say God, and I can then ask what came before God? Both illogical questions if we're asking in good faith. I'm stating the fact that time did not exist before the event so the question is illogical. If you accept that the Big Bang could happen, you have to accept this premise. My question, what came before God is similarly illogical if we are to ascribe God the characters of eternity.
The theologically sound method of integrating these findings, I think, is the medieval Jewish notion of Tzimtzum. It quite effectively posits everything I've said that's scientific and then offers a coherent religious explanation for it that is respectful of logic and science.
Scientists do not pretend to have it all figured out. Science is about disproving postulated theories. Plus - Evolution and the big bang are two entirely different theories.
But I do not see how you can even think about denying the evidence for evolution. Clearly this proves beyond a shadow of a doubt that the bible is not literally true. And presumably as far as you are concerned - that there is no god. Too bad. Sorry.
Energy can be converted into matter -
http://imagine.gsfc.nasa.gov/docs/ask_a … 0724a.html
But seriously - what are you doing attacking a scientific theory on the basis that it is incomplete when you have absolutely zero evidence of a god?
You guys are really entertaining. "I don't believe evolution because there is not enough evidence - so I will believe something with absolutely no evidence instead."
Why not say "OK evolution happened - but god did it"?
http://www.allaboutcreation.org/creatio … tion-n.htm
Creation vs. Evolution
How could you think that everything, big or small, just occurred in one big bang at one single point?! Thats absolutely ridiculous!
...why? Evidence to the contrary, perhaps? My position is coherent with modern scientific thought, which by nature, requires internal consistency and simplicity. Believe what you believe but don't dismiss something scientifically coherent because you think it's "ridiculous."
Lita, sweet Glad you found it interesting. Medieval Jewish thought is the only/most compelling aspect of religion/theology for me.
This is all in good fun and discourse. But please allow me to see if I can't try to better help you see my point of view. That way, maybe if we both work hard at agreeing to disagree when appropriate we can gain each others perspectives and realize we ultimately all have the same values.
That said, I will never (and can never) claim to be right or wrong. And only I can give you the power to cause myself to lash back out at you, and vice versa. In short, I've no intention of trying to impress, address, oppress, or depress.
More to the heart of the matter, it has been said that many scientists try to disprove creationism. This is indeed true, but as I pointed out earlier, there have been many scientists who are devout followers of religion and God.
The problem is people become offended and pissed off, feel as if they need to fear for their own opinion and try to put themselves on a higher pedestal than those around them. Personally, I don't understand this logic. And maybe that is actually one of my problems.
I can come off snarky and sardonic, but I laugh mostly at that reflection in the mirror. And to my credit, I'm a card carrying member of the Hugs Not Drugs campaign.
Some scientists confuse it for religion. By the same token, some people of religious ferocity try to validate their beliefs and have to try and make their Word of God coherent with what scientists say about the earth and the universe. Here's looking at you, ID.
However, what has a person of either order gained? A narrow perspective.
How we have come to be and why is the question of you, me, and the we. I is plural.
Who it is that we are trying to love, follow, and worship is a question for the me. I can't tell you, you can't tell I.
We both could assume, we both could discuss who it may be. But call me agnostic---I'll follow my heart, spirit, and mind. I'll try to live my life to the fullest every day, and help stem the tide of negativity where I can.
No matter where we end up tomorrow, we're all here together today.
Sorry if I'm so freaking philosophical. I had lunch with Confucius, where we discussed what it was like raising baby Jesus. Then we went golfing withy Moses, only to be dragged to a gnarly party by the Wiccans.
With love, sarcasm, and purity
It has been said? By whom? You?
This is not true at all. You cannot prove or disprove creationism until you provide some evidence of a creator. Of which there is none.
This is also untrue. Some religionists assume that because they have a faith based belief - everyone else uses irrational reasoning to come to a decision. Science is not about a faith based belief - no matter how many times you say it is.
Not going to argue with you here. But using faith based beliefs to attempt to postulate an unprovable, untestable theory is ridiculous. Belief in a god is not science and never will be. Neither will ID.
Sorry - I only ever hear this as an argument from believers. If you reject the idea of a god - you are narrow minded
You might want to look up the difference between a scientific theory and a faith based belief.
How we have come to be is what science is attempting to answer. Why? Is an unanswerable question - unless you make a leap of faith that there must be a reason and a purpose. Narrow minded thinking ? Oh yes. I think therefore I must have a purpose. Your purpose is to propagate the species.
Sorry - this is a science forum. Unless you have a testable theory, loving following and worshiping have no place here.
Me too. But what does this have to do with Darwin's theory and the current available knowledge?
Sorry to be so literal - but also - what does this have to do with the fact that we evolved?
Again, hitting the nail in the head my friend. There is one universal reason we have all come to exist, whether its behind the face of religion or backed up by the plain truth of science.
Spoken like a true man of science, and I understand. My point was--it doesn't matter "who" it is that we're trying to emulate or become. What is religion or morality? A guiding system that in some respects is the basis of at the very least, America.
However, don't get me wrong. I'm all for a seperation of Church and State. I just happen to believe, however, that this clause as we know it is probably more meaningful if we assume they just didn't want us to have a State sponsored religion. You know, like how...the Pilgrims were affectively forced out of England for disagreeing with the Church?
Whether I'm a believer or not, I feel its not within anyones right to disallow irrational thinking...so long as it harms no living thing, anyway.
Yeah, sorry. I'm just trying to respond to an earlier post. Darwinian theory or not, I'm trying to discover a grand unified theory of better communication among the species. Wasn't that why Neanderthal man eventually died off? Because while they did communicate, they didn't do it among their tribes as well as we did?
Again, just responding to an earlier post.
Very interesting. lol Please take this in good fun & discourse. Are you Buddha? Maybe your "ID" is kind of typically Southern Cal, lol, I don't know? (That's a joke.)
FYI-I straddle both perspectives and neither here--am interested in theology/ideas like Calebd suggested for their own sake...Your points are valid ones, seriously, I think--although individuality/ID was also "a part of God's plan," and/or certainly a part of evolution.
Question for ya: Do you think negativity can sometimes serve as much purpose as positive energy?
ID was for "Intelligent Design," and good joke. I'm laughing on the inside.
I think you're right in assuming our need for individuality is a very sacred and useful tool for giving us all a reason to continue to wake up each day. Whether its by a benign creator, or some quirk of genetic off shoot is really beside the point..I think, anyway.
Negative energy and positive energies are all of the same cloth. Energy is energy, it cannot be created or destroyed. What is negative, though? And what is positive?
Would you call it negative that you screamed at an alcoholic friend and tried to get them into AA?
Or would it be more positive to allow them to continue their addictions?
Thanks for engaging me, and yes, this is all fun discourse.
"The theologically sound method of integrating these findings, I think, is the medieval Jewish notion of Tzimtzum. It quite effectively posits everything I've said that's scientific and then offers a coherent religious explanation for it that is respectful of logic and science."
Genuinely interesting. I'm going to take a look.
Umm that's not what I said at all so I've no idea what you're responding to. Good on you and such but yeah..
No worries. I figured that might be the case but I was still a wee bit confused. 's all good.
Good job on the quoting the quoting. I will not try and do the same as we will end up with enormous posts, but I will quote one section:
I don't think I can close myself off in the way you mean. I see no reason whatsoever to imagine that there is a conscious afterlife. None. No more so than I see any reason to believe in Santa Claus. I prefer to accept that this is it and make the most of it. So I do not see this as being in any way narrow minded or closing myself off.
To me - imagining that there is something better (as most seem to think that the afterlife is somehow better than this life) after I die would be to waste the time I have here.
If I get it wrong - I am sure I will be accepted into this afterlife. Seeing as most of the people most of the time have not believed the jesus myth, that would be an awful lot of people automatically denied this wonderful afterlife either by accident of birth or simple common sense. Doesn't sound like an omnipotent god in charge to me. So I just apply the same question I apply to every piece of information I come across. Does that make sense to me? Nope.
We are animals. Thinking animals admittedly, but I am inclined to think that that is an accident of nature and we will soon destroy ourselves and be replaced by whatever comes out of the mess we make of things and almost certainly will not be anything like us. Nature does not repeat her mistakes. Just as we mammals replaced the dinosaurs as the dominant species.
In the mean time I remain fascinated at the way nature works and see clearly how Darwin first postulated his ideas. I watched a TV program this evening - an Antelope escaped a pack of dingos by jumping into a lake. Doesn't take much to see that if that happened often enough, evolution would begin to favor antelopes that swam well.
Where can thinking like this be found? Straight from the pages of a "Trolls life"?
Ironically neglected by Darwin and to which can't be found in Darwin's Timeline of origins of existence. Hmmm, Mark your an expert of Trolls. How can this be?
Hah Sorry I've not posted a response. Mark...I completely identify with you, thanks for describing your mind. I get you, brother. And I like your way of thinking and our abilities to set each other's views aside and communicate valid points.
Lita: I posit that I know everything, because in the end, I know nothing. I play with all possibilities, drawing as much information and emotional rhetoric I can from as many people as I can get to know. I maim to please. I merely question, section, subdue. Always take me with two grains of salt and wash me down with a good dose of wtf.
However, I think I hijacked this thread. I'm sorry, don't beat me. Because of this, I shall not continue on...if you do want to, however, have your peeps get to my peeps.
And for a good laugh: http://www.grimmy.com/comics.php (check 4/6/09)
Wow. Look what you did to Mark. Long paragraphs, even, . Your grand theory of communication. Check that.
What I meant with the 'ID' business is that you seem to be interested in breaking down identities as far as communication--which obviously I understand and to some degree feel does work. However, I'd question the necessity of it in all cases and perhaps suggest the keeping of identities and respecting of identities while agreeing or disagreeing may be more constructive communication, lol, in our species at this point.
Also, I don't know that one can posit themselves as so enlightened in everything, . Which you >may< be doing with your very assumptions here. (I don't even do that!! lol)
Other than that--you add a refreshing perspective to hubpages.
I've added you as a fan, and you've become a fan of mine. Figure it out. And besides, who needs peeps when we've got the internets and HubPages? And again, sorry for laying this thread to rest...RKHenry, or Mark Knowles for that matter, can probably get it back on track. And I can, too.
What of Darwin, his theory, and the timeline?
Anyone ever heard of the Piltdown(spelling right?) man?
I bow out, for I've not much to ask on this subject...but I shall be reading this thread if it remains interesting.
Here's looking at you!
I wouldn't answer the door for you even if you were disguised as Ed McMahon
Or maybe I just meant I wouldn't open the door for you. I'm the same girl who you told to "read my comments thouroughly before you accuse me of denying something." I have to go back to studying now. Have a nice weekend.
Oh, now I feel bad. Well, maybe I'd just keep knocking and knocking until you open up and listen to all of my theological rants about how to be one of the few chosen. If you still did'nt open up, I'd yell that I just left a bunch of primordial ooozzz on your doorstep. If you made me really mad I would cross bread your dog with your cat to birth (especially for you) a cog. . . .or a cag. It would be so ugly and it would probably spend its short life vomating all over your rug. For a final touch, I'd get a bunch of cub scouts to knock on your door so when you openned it they'd yell,
aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh, she's naked.
All of that, or I could just mail you a list of steps to take so that you can develop a sense of humor.
Hmm after I spoke of nudity and being a 21 year old college girl, your responses got nicer and less complex And read my hubs before you criticize my sense of humor. Don't feel bad, I don't. I'm content to not be one of the few "chosen," if that means I'm not among you. Someone else jump in now. I really should be studying
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