What if this happened today. All the news networks, all the world leaders, all the scientists, all the leaders of churches announced that it was proven that God does not exist. Proven beyond any reasonable doubt whatsoever.
What would you do? How would society and the world react?
Watch the riots unfold while the religious freaks still stand in denial.
God's non-existance has already been "proven" in the religion forum!
That's if you interpret the word "exist" in terms of a physical, tangible "thing".
So, now, we are back to the original position that the non-existance of something cannot be proven. So your question is both futile, and IRRELEVANT.
Sorry to throw a damper on your enthusiasm.
I'm beginning to become discouraged with some of the responses here. I posed this question in the forum to initiate a discussion. I'm asking believers and non-believers to view the question and answer it as if it were true. I'm not challenging anyone's belief system, it's just a question. I'm curious as to why people can't give an answer based on the question, not based on what they currently believe in. Very interesting.
You're right, so I'll take another shot at your OP.
What would I do? I would get out of Dodge, head for the hills. On to your next question.
The world would be in chaos as churches, synagogues and temples closed all over the world. Billions would perish. An Apocalypse of a different kind, totally surreal.
I agree that there probably would not be much of a change. The people that were announcing to the world that he didn't exist might have to be taken into protective custody. There would probably be lawsuits for every school that showed the announcement to the students. Many believers may think that this announcement is a test of faith, and therefore disregard it.
As for me personally, I would most likely just stay inside for a while until people calmed down. I'm not one to go around saying "I told you so!" and I gave up on trying to get people to see facts against their will a long time ago.
That was already accomplished a long time ago. Although believers will tell you that you can't prove God doesn't exist, they have already proven that he does and have proven no other gods could possibly exist. They will tell you how they communicate with God and will then tell you all other gods are false and don't exist.
"I am the Lord your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of slavery; you shall have no other gods before me."
cooldad, I can tell you what I would do, but I can't say how society and the world would react. I would willingly admit that I had been wrong and try to realign my belief system to what I now knew to be the truth. It wouldn't keep me from doing what I do now in the name of my faith - namely, treating everyone with whom I come into contact with love and respect, allowing that despite the evidence, others may continue to think differently from me.
Personally, I think society and the world would simply find something else to argue about. I could be wrong, but when it comes to it, everyone just wants to be right - so the world would find a new argument and move on, sadly.
I think most believers would reject it outright. There might be a small percentage who didn't believe all that much to begin with, the sort who only show up to Church a few times a year because their spouses or parents drag them there. When reason and faith collide there's no telling which will win out, it can depend on a number of factors, but I have think it's safe to say even if God was disproved entirely some would still believe. Such is the nature of blind faith.
Isn't it impossible to prove or disprove the existence of such a mysterious concept?
I guess i would convert to agnosticism instead of Atheism
Our minds are too limited- there is no way we would be able to prove such a thing. I don't believe we can offer any sufficient evidence whether God does or doesn't exist.
To answer your first question, cooldad, I'd probably have a glass of scotch with my dad and talk about the findings. I don't want to speak for what the world/society would do. We have enough trouble answering direct questions.
A mere mortal trying to tell the truth lol...........You cant believe what they are already saying, so why should I believe there is no God also......
Crazy.... the people that dont believe there is God seem to be more worried about his "non existence" than his existence......that should itself tell you of the empty space between their ears........Unless of course there is the question maybe there is God........I met him yet science cant prove him...
Continue with our day to day lifes. The world doesn't need religion because it doesn't form the word in the way it used to.
I'd show them proof to the contrary. As would everyone else. If it were undeniable...
Then I would probably continue on as I am. My concept of God doesn't make me be someone different from the person I want to be anyway. I'm not who I am as a means to an ends. I am who I am because that's who I am, and who I want to be.
Nothing in my life would change life goes on, we are born, we live, and we die,although this supposed "What If" can and will never happen for God is real.
I believe in God foe he has given me the gift to see people after life something doesn't happen to everyone. He chose me out of so many people in the World
All great questions; how would the world react is the best question-BibiLuzarraga.
Well I would not have to think any differently, and the religionists would not believe it if god told them himself, so my guess is very little would change,
"What if this happened" ,what if the liberally tainted cool dads of today raised up children , Who broke through the shield of extremely FAITHFUL atheistic hypocracy and became christians ? Really my friend , what would you think? And that one little man said "but dad ....I believe in a God! ....?
Well, maybe you could ask that question in a forum that you created and I would be glad to answer it. But that's not what I asked in this forum that I created. That is the exact answer I expected from many; no answer at all and no ability to be open minded and have a discussion.
Cool dad, I though a forum was a place for open minded discussion , but I guess this one isn't ? Oh Okay I'll go start my own.....duh! If you can't take the answers ...dont ask the question my friend.
You missed the point. You chose to ignore the question I posed and turned it around in an attempt to insert your specific belief system. To answer your question, I would say, "Wow, guess I was wrong."
...Honestly I would not have regretted decisions (emotionally and physically) that I had made in my past...
No criminal record
Peace from within..strength during difficult times..joy and humor when days were uncertain.
Yes ,I know some will be quick to point out ,you dont need God to have all of those things -and more,but the difference is I did.
I am answering your question with a question......thats my point, do you not concider my response in your quest for an answer to a forum question? Oh yea , I forgot to sip on the liberal coolaid, sorry. What I'm really sorry about is that you asked a question and can't except my interjection in forum dialog! Typical liberalism....
I think you've forgotten what forum you're in. The pathetic left-right insults are for the Politics forum. Here, we specialise in pathetic theist-atheist insults. Raise your game, why don't you?
that's what kills me here. I didn't pose this as a liberal-conservative issue. I posed it as a question. I've already read the word "liberal" enough, without a serious discussion yet to evolve. I really just want, good, open discussion. And some better spelling.
It wouldn't matter to the individual in the short run. Their belief transcends the teachings. They have convinced themselves of what they believe.
It would take a few generations to kill God off completely. But, in the western world, it would not effect the workings of our societies. They aren't dependent on religion to lumber on. I'd be curious what someone in a country using Shari'a law thinks about the matter.
I doubt that generations would do it either. It would entail killing off everything that exists both tangible and intangible. Known and unknown. A mighty endeavor for anyone. Who or what could have the power to do such a thing?
Mightier than your capabilities. Intangile as they may have once never needed to be, surely this would be the divinator that succeeds.
Wouldn't that be a kick in the butt? Man tries to erase God from existence, so he erases existence.
Or, once we convince everyone God doesn't exist; he ceases to exist; so everything he created never happened and we cease to exist. The universe disappears as if it was never here because once we resolve that there is no God, he is no longer omnipresent; so the universe never happened in the first place.
Hey Cool Dad. Maybe this thread wasn't such a good idea after all.
I'm amazed that the thought of God being proved as not real has led to the end of civilization. I didn't realize people had to believe in a god or gods or a divine cow in order for people to exist. Wow
It was a joke. But, if I believed in God that would be one of the possibilities. The mystic rabbis say we exist because God believes we do. If he stops believing, we cease to be.
Its not in the believing. Its in the existing. Two very different things. One does not have to believe in God or Gods to exist. One would however need to destroy all that exists in order to prove whether or not God exists.
Kinda like if it is true that the world is in a grain of sand. We can eliminate all the sand but the world will still exist but that's not what we want to prove. So in order to prove whether the theory is true or not we would be best doing that by keeping one sand, eliminating the whole world and hoping like heck the world is in the grain of sand like william blake said it is.
Haha yep after all we are our own worst enemies!
I completely agree. It really wouldn't make too much of a difference to a large percentage of the population.
God does not exist because you people think that he has some kind of shape sitting on the skies. Bullshit. God does exist but he has no shape. He surrounds no space. The scientists who did a lotof work i.e newton, Ainstien, also believed in God but as nature
I'm with Earnest on this one, it would make no difference to me personally, because I have been broadcasting that information for years. There is no God, There never was. Man created the Gods, all of them and not the other way around.
However, if, and it's a very big if, the world was to actually come to accept the fact I can see lots of things happening. The entire Middle East would descend into a blood path as every religious leader was hacked to death for keeping them subverted for the last two thousand odd years.
The Bible Belt in the States would go into shock and maybe lynch a couple of evangelists before going into complete mental meltdown.
It would be a great time to be a psychologist or own a funny farm !
I thought Christianity started in the Middle East, NOT the Bible Belt of the US of A.
Maybe they were not the first after all, either.
I would laugh at the hoax, because it cannot be proven scientifically.
"War of the Worlds" created quite a ruckus when it was first broadcast with Orson Welles speaking, but people can be pretty gullible about science, religion and science fiction. People got so serious about that hoax.
Science deals with the realm of continuity (physical reality) while religion and spirituality deal with the realm of discontinuity (creation, God, spirit, forgiveness). The two are like oil and water.
Science studies the products of creation, and it does a good job of it. Any believer who ignores science, ignores reality. That's delusion. But science has nothing to say about the discontinuous realm (outside space-time).
Thought-provoking question, though.
Hey Cool Dad,
I respect your question much more than many of the responses. It seems many are much happier poking fun at than discussing, which is why we are so polarized
For me, it would be a change from not knowing (agnostic) to knowing.
I would be disapointed that any chance I had to see more of the universe was gone.
I would have to re-adjust my emotional centre. I would like to think that I would be successful.
I wouldn't have to change my dealings with others, as I like both who I am and the choices I normally make (when I don't make bad ones)
I wouldn't stop reading the works of those who have believed, because I still think there is truth and beauty in many of them, and it does no good to ignore a statement one thinks is wrong when so many believe it.
I would study up further on the branch of science/philosophy that offered the proof. (I'm trying to do that now with current claims of knowledge of no god, but I think it would have a higher priority once a proof was offered.)
A legitimate hypothetical. I normally eschew those as not really adding anything material to a reasoned discussion, but I did think about this one differently than I normally do. Thanks for asking it.
Finally, a common sense response! I kind of agree. Although, I would also be preparing for the riot that would ensue as well. (The replies on this forum should be an indicator of the chaos that would ensue in real life)
Why would it change the out look on the universe that you have? Nothing would really change.
The personal nature of a relationship with your god is not one to be swayed by the opinions of others. If my neighbor told me his wife was sleeping with the local member (pun not intended) I would be more inclined to believe him than a person in a church I do not attend when prattling such nonsense.
To strengthen my resolve in such matter I challenge you not only to find and honest politician but an honest news network. Finally, I ask you this, when was the last time you spoke to a christian scientist. David Attenborough would be delighted to visit your home and tell you how god is a fairy tail.
Incidentally which god were you talking about...? If the question implies the christian god, I think you will find since the notion of "christian" religion is predicated on the bible, the implication would have to be that the bible itself is incorrect and/or fake. that particular argument has been making rounds at the water cooler for a long time now.
As a Believer I think this is a very fair question. How would we change if the world could prove or disprove something SO important. I would like to think I would not change much about myself, but then again I feel like the moral all people hold in high value come from some aspect of religion. Our value of life, how we treat others and how we expect to be treated by others are based on a higher ideology. The truth is without a higher power to give us our ideas of right and wrong we might as well fall into total anarchy. If man (and all of creation for that matter) just HAPPENED then there is no value in existance. Murder, rape, arson, and the like would run rampant and respect in any higher authority, whether religious or legal would disappear. It's wouldn't just be the religious zealots that freak out and riot, but anyone who held back because offear of punishment would no longer have anything to fear. I wish I could say I had more faith in my fellow man, but if science, religion and any other authority could prove to me that there were no God, I don't know how people would handle it. Individuals may be intelligent, but people are panicy, scared, and run in groups of stupidity.
Now if I may pose the quesation the other way around, how would you respond to undeniable evidence that God does exist? Don't worry about proving any religion, just a basic belief in God.
Interesting. You would be a rapist and arsonist if you were not scared of judgement? And at the same time - you would not change much about yourself?
How funny you do not see the contradiction in your statements.
My writing was not perfect in the reply, but I think it's pretty apparent to any intelligent person that the statements about the lawlessness was a "plural" statement indicating a referrence to a larger group and therefore not myself individually. It's this kind of half reading that causes discussions to turn into fights. And, yes, I see the contradiction in the statement that how I would like to think I would react may not be how I react. If your entire core beleif system was rocked, I think most people would handle it in a similar way. Try answering the question I posed at the end. Keep in mind that science has yet to figure out how life began without a higher power being involved. Also, if you're going to believe so faithfully in something like evolution, enough to argue it's points, have you considered that Darwin himself tried to clarify before he died that it was only a theory and that he did in fact belief in God? Science and religion are not mutually exclusive.
Speaking of interesting, I notice that you had the courage to try to point out flaws without adding anything worthwhile to the conversation. Put your faith out there and stand by for the attacks from people as close minded as you.
I added a lot to the conversation. I pointed out the hypocrisy and contradictions in your statement.
I am an atheist. I do not rape and pillage. Yet - you seem to think that - while you personally woudl not start doing that because your morals do not need a belief in god - you fear that the only thing stopping your fellow believers from raping and burning things willy nilly is the fear of god.
That about it?
Interesting how little you trust your fellow believers if the only thing stopping them from raping and arson is the fear.
I agree with Roy in that there are some believers that are only "good" because they are afraid, not because they feel any sense of right and wrong. These are the ones that *could* become very dangerous in the scenario of god being disproved.
Given that, statistically, more of the prison populations profess some kind of religion, it is arguable that most of the crime is already being committed by people who believe even without Cool Dad's proposition.
I share Cool Dad's concern with the notion that if 'no god' is proved, the world would turn to anarchy. We'd find something else to rally around.
Survival is easier for weak humans in groups. Its why we have them.
We'd probably just have different ones.
I am of the opinion that right and wrong has nothing to do with being or not being religious. I do not rape, murder, steal right now because I feel that it's wrong. If God were proven to be real tomorrow or proven not to exist tomorrow, I would still feel this way.
I think assuming that anarchy would take over should it proven that God doesn't exist, is a huge stretch and really a sad commentary on society. I don't really think peoples values would change much. It's kind of like if all drugs were legalized tomorrow. I would not smoke crack or shoot heroin, because I know that it's wrong and not beneficial to me or society.
Do people really need to believe in a God to do the right thing in life?
He doesn't - but he thinks all his fellow believers do. I wonder if they think that too?
You assume too much by stating that I think ALL fellow believers do. I am a believer, but also a bit of a realist. The facts are that throughout history people kill and pillage in the name of God. I don't think it's a far stretch to think that the same people would do even worse with no religion. Also keep in mind for my part, I am speaking from a Christian point of view and the world is not predominantly Christian, though most of the world's religions do believe in the "same" God. Some of the world's religions are already waging "holy wars" or jihads in the name of God. I think what would happen is that those religous zealots would either increase their war efforts which would lead to murders and more wars or they would completely fall apart. It is not my faith in religion that is in question, it is my faith in man.
My opinion is that if the foundation of what you thought to be right and wrong were shattered, what would stop you from doing whatever you felt like doing. Imagine the moral compass of some 95% of the world getting broken at the same time. Even the bible states that without the law there is no sin, for it is through the law that sin was created. With no laws there are no rules to break. With no God (and therefore no afterlife, no eternal consequences) why would any of those things be wrong. This is not my personal opinion, but if I'm going to imagine that God is truly disproven, then I have to imagine a world without faith in something more. As a society we already lean to the opinion that one should do whatever one feels is right, so rape is not a far reach from premarital sex. Murder is not a stretch from killing in the name of God. I'm speaking on a global scale not just American society where most people respect the law just because it is the law.
So - basically you would start to rape and murder without this belief? LOLOL
Speaking on a global scale huh?
Believer and Realist? Oxymoron.
I do not base my belief on what is right or wrong on anything that can be shattered. Therefore - unlike you - I cannot have my "beliefs" shattered.
I do not believe garbage. I make my own determinations.
If that's the best you can do to reply then I'm done wasting time with you. Personal attacks without any basis and twisting words are a feeble attempt to start a fight. Believer and realist an oxymoron? I don't think so- a scientist who can't tackle the origin of life without a higher power is an oxymoron. You do beleive in garbage if you subscribe to the theory (unproven) of evolution which also demonstrates that you don't make your own determinations, you just follow whatever theory relieves you of the responsibility of believing in something you can't fully explain. Your own words are an example of someone who believes so strongly that what they think is corrct that they will just insult anyone who disagrees.
Still no answer to the question of how you would react if God were proven according to your fallible standards. Now that's laughable...
So - you would rape? How sad. This is why we despise you believers. You have no morals.
LOLOLOL What point was that? That all believers will rape and commit arson if they are not askeered to beleeb? LOLOL
That you cannot debate something intelligently. You resort to personal insults and don't even know why you have the morals you claim to have. I'm not sure what askeered and beleeb are, but I think you meant asked and believe. I think your belief in nothing is shaken. you have avoided answering the question on six separate occasion now. you don't have the fortitude to put your beliefs out there. You are far more comfortable attacking me personally. What are you, like 6 years old? Maybe you just aren't evolved enough to carry on an intelligent conversation. Or should I just say, "nuh-uh!" That seems to be on your level. When you stand for nothing you have nothing to stand on. At least I put some thought into the question about what I think would happen if God were disproved, you have failed continuously to think about what you think would happen if God were proven beyond a shadow of a doubt. Dumb... if you just want the last word you can have it. Don't expect anything else from me if you're not going to play by cooldad's rules for this question.
LOL - so - you will rape and burmn then? OK - Gotcha.
Never attacked u personally - U iz the won wot sed beleebers will kill ifn they int skeered.
Like wot u sed god sed innit.
I have not personally insulted you. I pointed out the inconsistencies in your statement. You specifically said that you would not change your behavior, but you feared that all your fellow believers woudl start raping and burning buildings. You then asked me a nonsensical question that has no real answer.
If god came and proved to me that it would burn me in hell for not believing - I would tell it I prefer to burn in hell than worship such a despot. I would have a tough time not believing in it if it proved itself to me though. I would not change the way I behave one iota.
You put zero thought in to your answer - you just parroted garbage that you say does not apply to you. You directly contradicted yourself and demonstrated that - you are a hypocrite. And you do not see the inconsistency in saying that the only thing stopping all your fellow believers from raping and burning buildings is fear of judgement. But - not you.
I have the morals I have decided to adopt. If you speak nonsense at me again - I will make fun of you again. I do not consider this behavior to be immoral. You say ridiculous things - you should expect to be ridiculed.
I mean - you really don't see the inconsistency in claiming the only reason believers do not rape and burn things is because they believe in god and their morals come from fear - yet this does not apply to you and you would not change your behavior?
Almost as though you decided your own moral code for yourself. Which is not possible according to you.
"Reverential awe, especially toward God: the fear of God. Synonyms: awe, respect, reverence, veneration." (http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/fear)
You have (as all atheists do) taken the word fear to mean "a distressing emotion aroused by impending danger, evil, pain, etc., whether the threat is real or imagined" which is not the only definition of fear. There are no inconsistancies in what I have said. I also NEVER said that ALL believers would lose their bearings.
You have stated that you have your own morals, but they are still based on religious teachings whether you want to believe that or not. You were taught right from wrong by your parents, grandparents, school teachers; all of which either were Christians/believers themselves or were taught their moral by believers. You feel that your morals would not change whether God was proven or disproved and that you would rather burn in hell than believe in a God who expects things from you, but your whole moral set is based on what He has established as right or wrong, so without that authority, why would your morals be worth anything? You have proven that what people hold as right or wrong is fluid without God by stating that you would see nothing wrong with making fun of someone's opinions (which most people with any class would consider rude at best). I challenge you to provide any evidence that I have "parroted" anything I have stated in my opinion about the fickleness of mankind.
While I am sure you hold no belief in the Bible, I would point out that the Israelites have demonstrated that in a moment of weakness they fell into revelry defying God. After they were freed from Egypt and brought to the desert at Mt. Sinai, they waited only a few weeks before deciding that God either didn't exist or did not care about them and began having orgies and worshipping idols and all manner of sinful behavior. There are few instances in the bible or in history where a godless people have managed to set any moral examples for the world or even survived as a society.
When has atheism created a masterpiece of art, or helped someone through the toughest times in their life? Atheism cannot even answer the most basic questions like the origin of life. Even if evolution were true on the scale that you support, why would various species adapt on their own without some type of prompt? And a good example for modern times is is how the world considers it cheating to have an advantage over other people. Just look at how congress and even the Oympics committee is trying to prevent people with natural advantages from competing.
And as far as saying ridiculous things, your ridiculous opinion that I am a hypocrite is in itself ridiculous. Just because you are not intelligent enough to understand an opinion that differs from yours you have to resort to childish mockery. How hypocrytical is it for you to insist that even if God were proven beyond a shadow of a doubt that you would still not believe in him. Just stubborn I guess.
What? Total off-topic nonsense again, I see.
Keep fighting for Jesus - like wot god sed.
I mean - come on - all you have actually done is defended your irrational belief in an Invisible Super Being and claimed the moral high ground. Despite the fact that you also claim that - you would not change your behavior if it was proven god does not exist.
You did say that you thought the only thing stopping believers from raping and burning buildings was the fear of god - right?
This is why your religion causes so many conflicts - you have no moral or ethical guidelines to follow. Disgusting really.
My morals are based on rational decisions - please stop lying at me. I think slavery is wrong. The bible does not. Have you actually read this book?
Please stop lying about what I said as well. I said no such thing about not believing if it were proven. I said I would not worship such a psychopathic god - I would rather burn in hell than worship a god that values blind belief over using my mind.
Liars for Jesus(TM)
No morals or ethical code - that is your problem.
People will do the right thing if they want to. Why do they have to have a religion to do so?
I really want to feel like your question is worth considering in the terms you chose to relay it with. But in truth I cannot conceive of a way for this to happen so I cannot conceive of a logical response. Perhaps if an event occurred where by all people lost faith and stopped believing, I suppose the logical question to ask would have to be "what new form of piousness or righteousness would those who have something to hide or cover up adopt in the place of godliness or religious observance". The very nature of religion is a joke. Read your texts and hold your private beliefs fine, even dance around or talk about it in groups but, religion is a thin gossamer and nothing more. If you do not plan to be every bit the "I believe in god, his spirit resides within me and no man shall teach me but my lord god" then there is more than a good chance that you are there at the churches or using the plaque in the office or bible as a prop so that people can gain the measure of your worth.
I am happy to add however that this is an can only be opinion of facts from my perspective as if such a thing could be considered accurate. I will not say that my long-view is the right one. I think we should look at the behavior of people. In Britain recently a peaceful rally turned into a disgusting and nausea inducing rampage of stealing, molesting vermin.
Some time in the history of Australian television there was an April fools telecast about spaghetti trees. people called the station wanting to buy them by the thousands.
hey kullies GOD exist and he is still in existence,m you all really need to believe in him, cause there are trillion signs that shows HIS existence, please stop contemplating please for this is a great sin unto thee.
Hey, it's a hypothetical question. If you can't set aside your fervent belief for a few seconds to contemplate a question and produce a cognitive, cohesive response that resembles something intelligent, please go to another forum. Trillions of signs??? Wow, that's another forum subject entirely.
And what is a "kullie"?
"Today it was proven that God does not exist."
Darn! I missed it!
Don't worry, it wasn't a big deal, but I'm sure I'm going to hell for suggesting that this happened.
No worries...my friend. If the day that God shows up...as in the One known as "Jesus"...goes according to the bible (which I base my thinking-which I've studied from end to end over the period of my adult life-including some during childhood...which I believe someday...it will)...then no ones going to care about what world leaders,news media "darlings", church leaders have to say about it. Of course...all according to my belief system.
Congratulations , once again the great intellectual atheistic minds have started another dicussion about "Them" darn believers. Someone once said it takes more faith to believe in atheism than in a god , whichever god you chose to dis-cuss for the day that is .
The real question is have you read the book? You most likely are just going by what you have heard from tv preachers. You don't want to live up to a higher standard so you claim there is no God and do whatever you want. This isn't the Davinci Code we're talking about here that you can read once and understand everything that was said or done.
You keep calling me a liar- it's just because you don't like what I have to say. Most atheists will resort to just such a childish thing when they lose arguments too, so I am not really surprised by you immature reactions to just say "nuh-uh" and call me names. Do you really believe the sewage you are spitting out, or are you just hoping to get some kind of "sinful" reaction out of me. I have to assure you that I am neither a liar nor a hypocrite and you have yet to establish in anything I've said that either one is even remotely true.
By the way, do you have any real interest in learning anything new, or are you content to sit back and make fun of anyone who thinks differently from you?
Your morals are based on rational decisions?!? So, when you were in 1st grade you made a rational decision not to take someone else's toys? Ridiculous. You were taught that stealing is wrong. If everything you were ever taught about right and wrong was upended, you want me to believe that you would not change how you behave or at least have a period of doubt? You're probably the only person in the world and I can assure you that you're not that special.
Since you have no interest in adding anything intelligent to the conversation, I am finished with you. You gave it your best, but at the end of the day you just call me names and have neither learned anything from me nor taught anything new to me. Thanks for playing...
Aww. Lying again huh?
Beleebers will rape wivout the threat - gotcha.
LOLOLOLOLOLOLOL Intelligent? LOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLO
Really? stealing to feed your child is wrong? LOLOLO
No wonder your beliefs have caused so many wars.
Liars For Jesus (TM)
is an awesome argument.
LOLOLOL is very hard to come back from...wow.
It certainly is a direct statement. Yes.
Your lies on the other hand are just that. Lies to defend the beliefs you say you have but do not follow. I warned you - speak lies and nonsense at me again and I will laugh at you. What did you not understand about that?
You would not change your behavior, but all the other beleebers would start raping and burning buildings down. Statistically - believers are far, far more likely to commit a crime than those of us who determine our moral standards using reason and logic instead of majik. Why not try addressing the point6s I have made instead of spouting nonsense at me?
Odd - I try and have a reasonable conversation with you, you spout lies and nonsense at me and I laugh at you for doing so. And I am the one degrading the conversation?
This is why religionists such as yourself cause so many conflicts.
Liars for Jesus (TM)
Come on - try explaining why you think all your fellow believers would immediately start raping and pillaging when you personally would not. Telling me lies and using semantics to change the subject just makes me laugh at you.
Why would you personally not start raping and pillaging if god were proven not to exist - but ya think that this belief and fear is the only thing from stopping your fellow believers?
See how that makes no sense and is actually a lie to defend your silly beliefs?
You know... Much of the world is populated by people with a religion. And a god or gods. Imagine that spirituality and/or the existence of a higher power was unequivocally disproved, I think the world would be a vastly different place. Many people would be despondent, upended and wholly rearranged. I think you would see people doing things that they were capable of yes but certainly would never have done. I think you will discover who the truly moral people are in the world. Those who champion the cause of the people and sanctity of life. In the same token I think you would discover how degenerate people are capable of being without dogma or rhetoric. The government of course never was run on Christian principals but, they may or may not be much more public about their institutions and structures of control.
I think it is easy to say one thing for sure, a lot of people would die. A lot of wars would start and the world would no doubt be plunged into a moral dark ages for a time.
"I think you will discover who the truly moral people are in the world. Those who champion the cause of the people and the sanctity of life." I really like that, well said. You make some good points.
I don't think that the world would plunge into moral darkness. As cynical as I am, I still hope that people would act like decent human beings regardless of god or religion. But, I've given people far to much credit in the past.
It is hard to say without it having happened in the past. It might be anyone's guess. Given the attrocities commited in the name of religion in the past, one might even suggest that we would emerge into the most enduring and complete period of peace that man has ever known.
And THAT is worth hoping for.
Wars come from the wicked hearts of men.
Religion only adds justification for it.
But so does greed, power ambition, and many more human passions.
lol. that's a way to put it, yes. But remember what I said, religion is a gossamer. You know and I know that god doesn't require a religion or clergy for the act of belief or contrition. One must stop hiding behind the mask of organisation and be directly responsible for his or her own actions.
As it is in the bible. Jesus requires one to be more than just a lukewarm, limp-fisted handshake. Never doubt that every person is responsible for his or her own actions regardless of what some would be puppet-master ordered him or her to do.
Now to the crux of the argument, the point behind this post. When you allow people to become warped by power and wealth, that person no longer behaves like a sane, moral individual. This is why the bible says that it is difficult for rich men to follow the path. There is something ill defined inside of a man who will take wealth and not evenly distribute it. Something callous and if you want unrighteous, that leads him to put himself before other men.
Take for example a pharisee, from old Israel. They were put in a position of leadership and they abused their power. They were not humble servants of the people, teachers and educators. They were egotistical, bloated and incapable of being worthy leaders.
Take modern governments. The institutions that comprise a system of governance near you is much like any religious system used when ruling in a theocratic fashion. We ALL know that governments do not distribute wealth or make use of their power in a way that is beneficial to the everyman. You, me, or anybody else.
SO. What am I saying. Thomas Jefferson said that for evil to take root and spread it takes only one good man to be complacent. WHEN YOU LET devices of greed and manipulation, structures of control and deprecation take away your god given freedom and right to live and prosper then it is you my friend who has allowed the wickedness. We who have fostered the evil. As a race we have allowed the wickedness to happen.
I will not accept an argument that says your fear or my fear is an acceptable reason for the world our kids are living in. For the dark ages and the inquisition, for the role Christianity has played in the deaths of millions. Does it sound like I have a chip on my shoulder? well.... Maybe that is so, but what I am saying is no less reasonable for it.
Those of the Islam faith, they did not invade Europe with the hope of claiming religious artifacts. They do not express their right to be a power in this world today without massive oversight and regulation. Who will do the same for us. Did you invade the middle east and steal, rape, pillage and murder? OK. Fine, but what did you do to stop it. Western nations are supposed to be christian nations. Bush gained a massive christian vote when he was elected.
Religion is like pollution that can be twisted into bloodshed and brainwashing. The bible will not brainwash you. And people will continue to find structures that can be used and abused after religion is gone, but don't defend something that no longer has a use in this world as a place of humble teaching and/or moral castigation.
And aka-dj. If you would not hope for a world of peace and work towards it. If you would sit idly by and proclaim that it will never come to pass then it will certainly never be hastened by your loving hand. Take a little time to think about it and remember that first and foremost the requirement of Jesus is to act in love and treat others as you would be treated. If a world of peace does not shine in your eyes then I will hold MY peace.
Neither of your posts relate to a "godless" world.
If it were, you'd have no right claiming anything Jesus said.
You can't have it both ways. If God existes, then Jesus' words are relevant.
If He doesn't, then neither are Jesus' words.
I'm all for peace, but the Word is pretty clear that the end will not come without pain.
yeah I guess that's true. It really doesn't belong in a thread about what if there was no god. ^_^
But you know. I started off talking about the world peace issue. God or no god. Religion would still exist. People call themselves christian and are nothing but people who's parents gave them an idea of identity and a metaphorical cross to bear. And religion is just that if you are not there for the one reason a believer is there for.
What I was trying to convey was that religion is a wonderful place to be when you love power, money and respect. Wars and murder after the fact are nothing more than extensions of such a person's warped belief system. Same as government. Just because you are the leader of a nation there is no time in which mass murdering becomes the only option or an attractive one.
Lets leave god out of it then. religion is used everywhere in the world as a shield. What people have done in so many years past under the aegis of religion would turn your heart cold and stony. There is no truth or love in religion, there never was. I am not saying that men are not to blame for "wickedness" What I am saying is that when such an impregnable divide as religion robs the world of peace and love, maybe taking it away would let both of those things back in.
By the way, my second post was not in conjunction with this thread so much. You are for some reason combative. I admitted that I may or may not have a chip on my shoulder when it comes to religion. and I also agreed with your comment that I replied to. I am not interested in saying you are wrong. I am happy to accept what you say and your belief system, but I have beliefs too and the objective of this debate style environment is to voice opinion. what I will not do and what you might want to think about is telling someone that they are wrong. This is why I tell you if you WANT peace, then try to act like it. and because you are a christian, then act like one and exercise a little love on the chats
I see you are new, so I will excuse your last sentence.
I am merely responding in line with the OP.
I presume you have seen my profile.
Maybe you havent seen any of my hubs, but I will let them speak for me.
I am not combative. I put that down to the limitations of the medium we are using to communicate (IE computer screen).
We all ad/bring our own emotions to what's written. That can often be different from what the writer brings, (vs reader).
You are combative. All the time. This is why your religion causes so many conflicts.
You have no moral or ethical guidelines. Sad.
It's what you do aka-dj that defines you not who you are. Take a hint from those previous posts I made that you said have no bearing on this thread. Stop blaming others, stop hiding behind excuses.
"If you would not hope for a world of peace and work towards it. If you would sit idly by and proclaim that it will never come to pass then it will certainly never be hastened by your loving hand. Take a little time to think about it and remember that first and foremost the requirement of Jesus is to act in love and treat others as you would be treated. If a world of peace does not shine in your eyes then I will hold MY peace."
"As it is in the bible. Jesus requires one to be more than just a lukewarm, limp-fisted handshake. Never doubt that every person is responsible for his or her own actions regardless of what some would be puppet-master ordered him or her to do"
Remember it well aka-dj. Jesus would rather chew you up and spit you out if all you have are lukewarm words and not even enough courage to stand behind your own words and actions as proof of your loyalty.
Now as per my own admission, since you apparently have no desire to employ a little "christian" civility, I shall no longer talk to you. I can only hope for your sake that jesus has more patience than I do.
My posts on HP is less that .0001% of what I do, and who I am.
You can't judge my "peace efforts" on this. It is a lifestyle.
Sorry you take such offence from so little.
You certainly are not under any obligation to speak with me.
I for one, have not liked going off topic on threads. I have had too many get "hijacked" by discussions that go off topic.
If you want to talk about peace, and how we can advance the cause, then I will address that accordingly.
My post is still based on "If there is NO GOD".
Sorry you were discouraged that folks were not actually answering your specific question. Here you go, then, my specific answer to the actual question:
What would the world do? How would everyone react? Many would have a critical meltdown, many more would continue to be in denial. Many others, such as myself, would simply shrug and say, "I told you so."
First let me say this - I do not believe humans can either prove or disprove the existance of God. The very definition of God puts God way beyond our complete comprehension. God says "My ways are not your ways" So why do we think our limited perceptions of the way things are will give us "Proof"
I would not accept the "proof" but I believe many in the world would get excited and think finally we got the best of God. It would be a little like a grain of sand proving that humans don't exist. All the grains would not have to worry about geing stepped on because all those humans at the beach are just an illusion.
As to the idea that this would give permission to suddenly begin to do all kinds of evil things, rape and so forth as was mentioned in a couple of earlier replies, we are created with certain knowledge deep in our souls about how to treat each other about right and wrong. I believe this comes from our creator, God. So we should be thankful he made us that way. The fact that these things are common to all mankind - is a kind of proof that God does exist.
Yes, as you can tell, I believe in God.
In regard to the existence or non-existence of God, it is possible to prove only the existence of God. As this is an old topic and anyone has his/her opinion on the above, I would like to tell you a story, unknown so far.
In math 2+2 is 4 and 3x3 is 9. So there is no way around to speculate by saying that 2+2 sometimes makes 5, or that 3x 3 on some occasions is 16.
How then could, on the same principle, be possible to demonstrate the existence of God? At first anyone would have doubts. This for the very fact that God transcends everything. Therefore, it is obvious that we cannot see Him.
We may say that philosophers, scientists, or religious figures explained what life principle is all about. The reality though is different. Principle of life is not a human concept. It is the Mind of the Universe' concept. How then could we know it?
The answer is this: Life principle is inherited in ourselves.
Where is it then? Anyone who enters the ream of life carries as a set of information Life principle. However, if the "cultural environment" obstructs its manifestation, life principle remains on the nature of mind like memory that for one reason of the other is not used.
All great sages, who sat on the journey of knowing what lies behind manifestation of life, realized at the time of their enlightenment, that what they looked for was inherited. However, there was the Mind of the Universe Who helped them regain that knowledge.
The good question, however, is: Why, if Life principle was revealed to them, sages debated the two fundamental aspects of religion. Namely creation vs. uncreated.
Hard to believe though, the truth is that the concept of life principle details on these very fundamental aspects of life: creation/uncreated.
I began an independent research on comparative religion and anthropology in 1998. I have just finished a part of it, and incorporated in a book entitled The Unknown Nature of Man- in the process of editing.
I will come back here, discuss, and eventually show some of my research.
First, I would ask for the proof and request to see it personally. Next, I'll think about it when I've done the first.
Interesting article. It smells of plagiarism.
I mean, Paul was mistaken for a Greek God at Lystra, as written in Acts 14;
8While they were at Lystra, Paul and Barnabas came upon a man with crippled feet. He had been that way from birth, so he had never walked. He was sitting 9and listening as Paul preached. Looking straight at him, Paul realized he had faith to be healed. 10So Paul called to him in a loud voice, “Stand up!” And the man jumped to his feet and started walking.
11When the crowd saw what Paul had done, they shouted in their local dialect, “These men are gods in human form!” 12They decided that Barnabas was the Greek god Zeus and that Paul was Hermes, since he was the chief speaker. 13Now the temple of Zeus was located just outside the town. So the priest of the temple and the crowd brought bulls and wreaths of flowers to the town gates, and they prepared to offer sacrifices to the apostles.
To me it reeks of combining the stories of Paul, Jesus and even perhaps the Apostle John.
I'd say Appolonius was the fake, myth, fabrication.
And I would say you are wrong. If you check the time frame you will see.
And I would say you are wrong. If you check the time frame you will see.
"although there appears to be confirmation at least of Apollonius's existence. In fact, from the odd coincidences between his life and that of Jesus, it has been suggested by not a few people that Jesus Christ is a fictional character based in large part on Apollonius of Tyana, although Christians beginning in early times cast the accusation of plagiarism in the opposite direction."
There is more evidence in other writings of the time to support that jesus was the one who never existed, as there is no proof at all to support his being a real person.
The christian belief got the upper hand by fouls means.
All will be revealed soon.
Your second paragraph is a total contradiction.
How can other writings "suggest" Jesus never existed?
I agree with the last line.
All WILL be revealed!
We can't all be right. One day (soon), He will set everything in order (straight).
No-one will have a thing to say about it.
But, since this is all a faith issue, I still believe what I believe.
Not blindly, but I have yet to find compelling enough evidence, or argument to convince me otherwise.
First of all, you have to realise that Jesus was a composite of different entities and the name was chosen several hundred years later at the Council of Nicea, wherein the entity Constantine ordered the various religious sects to come together and create a single religion for Rome, a Universal religion that incorporated all of the aspects of the various religions, so that all could accept and subscribe to it.
The whole Jesus thing is a lie plain and simple.
Except for one thing.
I don't believe this version!
Even if that were true, the OT was not in the hands of the council.
It was in the hands of the Jews.
The same OT is rife with prophecies of the coming Messiah.
In fact, the Jews themselves, by and large don't believe.
Yeshuah is not who they were expecting.
I know of MANY Messianic Jews, who have "converted" solely on the evidence of their scriptures.
Sorry mate, but your argument doesn't hold any water.
If that were the only evidence you had, that was compelling, there are heaps of counter arguments.
So, as I said, it comes down to faith.
Just who, and what do you choose to believe is all that separates us.
WAY TOO MUCH emphasis on proof.
Why does everyone waste so much time and effort on this?
Hi DJ. Wouldn't you want proof if someone told you an outlandish 4,000 year old myth then told you you should live your life by it in 2011?
Come to think of it, I guess you would take that as truth.
God is a Personal God who wants relationship, not scientific validation.
What does that have to do with finding the truth? Besides, Christians don't care what God wants, they're only interested in what they want.
Proof is what I was talking about, not TRUTH.
As for Christians wanting their own way, obviously that plays out in many instances, (not excluding myself).
There are not always clear cut guides to His perfect will for ones life. We are taught to live by faith, and not as robots.
Proof in the existence of a relationship with God? Or, the truth about someone claiming a relationship with God?
Wouldn't that be the Bible? Is it not clear cut? Is there some problem?
How are those concepts not one and the same when it comes to the Bible? Should you not follow it? Should other Christians not follow it?
Should all Christians follow the Bible?
You ARE a troubled man.
You have some real issues to deal with as far as Christianity is concerned.
The only issues I can see from you as far as Christianity is concerned is just how far away you are from it based on your personal insults towards me as opposed to talking about the subject matter.
Had to be said three times?
If you're sincere, answer this question.
Should all Christians follow the Bible?
It is a basis by which to help guide your life as a "Christian".
Should all Hubbers write Hubs?
Are all Hubbers commanded to do so by an omnipotent god and a holy book?
Are you saying there is no difference between following the Bible and writing hubs?
So, you say it is a guide to help your life as a Christian. Does that mean you can use whatever you want from the Bible and discard the rest? Or, do you have to follow the commands of your God, no matter what?
Hey...back it down a notch...Ok. It is called a question...much like all the ones you have asked in this thread. I am not going to enter into dialog with you simply to help lower your "anger management" bill. You got a beef against Christians...then bring it...and God bless you for doing so...maybe your words will help someone with discerment help to see the light. No matter where they stand. But...don't play that old elementary school tactic that you are all knowing of all things about the Bible and God...then when someone says something you don't like...then you make a reference to that not being "Christian" of them. You don't get to be judge and jury...no matter what you believe. Hardly...nobody gets to be judge and jury on this planet...unless you're rich and powerful...or a dictator. I don't think any of it applies here...to you.
I replied to you based on what you told aka-dj: "If you're sincere, answer this question. Should all Christians follow the Bible?"
From that question...I wondered what gives you the right to stand on both sides of the debate...both as an expert witness and a prosecutor. You either is or isn't one...pick your side and go merrily on your sweet little way! Leave people at Peace...whatever side you sit on. You gain nothing with your rhetoric...the same as you would tell a believer.
There is an old Native American saying...or at least I sure do hope they have been given the proper credit they deserve for old wise sayings: "Do not judge a man until you have walked a mile in his mocassins" ! Peace!
Now, what was it you were saying about writing Hubs and following the Bible...that question threw me for a loop...!?
I'm not angry and have no idea what gave you that impression.
I have no idea why you're projecting onto me, I asked a simple question about Christians following the Bible. Should they or shouldn't they? Seems a simple question to answer if you're a Christian.
See, I'm not angry --->
Yep...kind'a thought you would tune it down with what I said...and all. You ...have to stay even-keeled if you want to impart some knowledge. Or...if you just want to blast away at everyone...then you can do that...as well...it is up to you. However...those kind'a folks usually don't make it on this Hub Page Forum.
I said what I said...so that we don't have to do the whole endless argument thing...with each other...trying to get the last word in. Boring !
I still say that you don't get to play the game of *judge and jury. (*See my above reply for the reason behind what I said)
To answer your simple question about the simple question you asked: *I already did. (*See my above reply for my answer on what I said)
Have a good one...
No idea what you're talking about, projecting again, perhaps?
I see no answers to my question and no in trying to get the last word. Should all Christians follow the Bible?
You are hurting my personal feelings by not recognizing my answer...Wahhh!
Had to get the last word...didn't ya? Did I not answer your question? "Projecting against you?"...My but you are so sensitive to anything said.
Hey...maybe you could actually write a Hub...about how how you're always right in every form of discussion. And if not...how you can twist your words around to show how silly anyone discussing something with you is. Would make for a great Hub for you yo write...Why don't you try it!
Again, I see nothing but projection and diversion here. If you don't want to answer questions, just say so, no need to act childish.
Childish...you say. Better check your last 919 trollish posts to see who is the childish one.
And pull your head out from wherever it is stuck...and quit whining about not getting an answer to your question...when that is the first thing I did when entering our little post interaction.
To keep asking for a an answer to a question from someone...just because you don't like the answer is very...Childish. In fact it is the pure definition of Childish!
LOL! I would agree that any discussions negatively impacting religious beliefs as viewed by the believer are most certainly trollish. It's a last bastion of retreat when the beliefs are shown to be a house of cards.
What delightful things you say, for non-trollish behavior, that is...
I asked this: "Should all Christians follow the Bible?"
You responded: "It is a basis by which to help guide your life as a "Christian".
Thank you very much for telling me what the Bible is, I appreciate that's what you believe it to be, but that's not what I asked.
The pure definition? Really?
It's not that I didn't like the answer, if I didn't like it, I would have told you so.
Your answer is unrelated to the question. I asked what Christians as a group should or shouldn't be doing and you responded with a description of the Bible as you see it.
But, please do continue with your non-trollish, non-childish behavior, instead.
Ok...Now that I have your permission...I will! Later...your boring. Try some objectivity in your life...it is good for the heart. How's that for non-trollish, non-childish behavior!
Yeah...Ojectivity! Oh...a thousand pardons...I forgot that only someone following your train of thinking is the "objective" one. Then and only then will one's postings be considered to be "objective". It is very important to have someone who is "objective" to tell you what is to be considered to be "objective".
Please...pardon me...Evolution Guy...Pray tell me your definition of "objectivite"...because you have really demonstrated it in all your postings.
Dear me. Objectively - your majikal super being does not exist. Logically - it cannot. So - please don't accuse me of not being objective. Deciding to argue with people who insist on spouting nonsense is a subjective decision based on objective observations that these beliefs cause nothing but strife.
Whatever...EG...within a 5 mile square radius of my house...sits upwards of at least 500 churches...who Pray to, Worship, Congregate on behalf of, and go to learn more about...the one you refer to as a "magical super being"...(which is maybe the first thing you have ever gotten right). But...you want to go on about fairy tales...blah, blah, blah...Ok...then Mr. Answer Man...just like ya'll like to ask unending and senseless questions on the same topic...over and over and over...here goes mine: "How did the first form of molecular life come into being?"
Is that a direct order or should I follow your lead. Let's see first it was an attack...at one post...then some other whine...then childish...now its maturity? Oh...don't forget where you stated: "Condescending and Patronizing". Yeah...that was really another one of your finer whiney points! You are quite good at the victim thing aren't you. Is that what makes you feel confident at the end of the day...that you have stated your view with clarity and purpose...by calling people big "meanie"names...then more power to ya'!
I however will have no more part of your endless name calling...and I'm afrad I shan't be talking with you...no more Your insistent whining and playing the victim is becoming boring. Yawn!
And if it helps ya' sleep better...you won all discussion points...you are the bestest poster I have ever dealt with. Hope you have fun on the forums going around finding someone else to argue with! Later...Toodles...Nothin' but love!
"you can't handle the truth" we were told by some actor in some movie. I go with that usually. Forget the truth. Just let me know what I need to know to get my job done today, so I can go home and watch TV or read the forums.
So, you've cherry picked what you want from Christianity enough to keep yourself arms length from it? You still have religion, by definition.
Everyone has religion, in my view. An atheist is religious unless he has not a belief system 'period.' Getting up in the morning, putting the coffee pot on, going to the bathroom, etc, can be termed habit or religious. If I cherry picked from history, Taoism, Feng Shui, crystalogy, psychology, philosophy, etc. formulating them to what 'I' accept/acknowledge as a belief system does that make it a christian belief system or at arms length? The distance I keep from 'Christianity' is probably equal distant from the others and more, I mentioned. I am guilty of this. I confess or am I professing. I have heard it stated in these forums how some if not many atheist were once Christians. Can I not have this same privilege for the system of belief I have, which is not organized 'Christianity.'
Lack of evidence in the affirmative is NOT evidence of the negative. That's bad logic my friend, and a confusion of correlation and causation.
Burden of Proof does not apply to non-scientific arguments.
some of the believers on here think that morals can only come from god. my morals since i was a child stemmed from the idea that if i wouldn't like something done to me, i shouldn't do it to someone else. i never liked the idea of hurting someone. one time (early gradeschool)i pushed my sister. she fell and hurt her back on her bedrail. i didn't even get yelled at. i just felt bad that she was hurting. i never laid a hand on her again. every religion in the world has the golden rule. surely some simple human logic can deduce that this is the best way to live. anyone with compassion or empathy (more than 9 out of 10 of all people - 1% sociopaths, 1% sadists, a few other personality disorders thrown in leaves over 90% intact) has a reasonable idea of how to behave if they have any conception of what a human is and that they are one.
so, if god were proved not to exist, my christian facebook friends would stop posting asking for prayer requests and perhaps ask for something useful. they would learn to appreciate our rich and diverse, though indifferent, universe as it is. not much else would change.
(God is a Personal God who wants relationship,)
Then why does he assume so many aliases? Jehovah, Allah, Zeus, Mars...
Following what you just said, there can be no aliases if it is a personal god or personal relationship with deity. What is god to me certainly is not what god is to another. Besides I don't call him god, I call him my friend 'Fred.'
Today it was proven that God does exist!
What if this happened today. All the news networks, all the world leaders, all the scientists, all the leaders of churches announced that it was proven that God does exist. Proven beyond any reasonable doubt whatsoever.
What would you do?
My truth and my faith lies within me,it's mine,it's personal and it's my business.
How come you never see Christians asking Atheist stupid questions about their beliefs,but you always have atheist asking stupid questions about our God or faith?
Just curious,aren't you?
Most Christians don't ask stupid questions.
Oh, I might get into trouble over that one!
OK, here's another one.
Many Christians have been where the Atheist are, so they know what it's like.
However, most Atheists have not been where Christians are, so they have to ask.
Perhaps these question are not a stupid as them may seem.
Oh well. It keeps Hubpages an active website, if nothing else.
No, sorry I disagree. Many atheists have been christians. Many atheists are so because they were christians
And all of us have asked questions that someone else thought was stupid. Risks of life.
I can't speak for you, but I know very few people that used to be "christians".
I know more than I care to count, who were churchgoers, who left. The reasons number in the same as the individuals concerned.
I, for one, could NEVER be and EX-Christian.
And, no, it's not fear that keeps me one.
PS. I also have (and still do) asked many, tough questions, and I have yet to have a satisfactory answer from an atheistic worldview.
I think this is why the idea exchange is so valuable. our own version of the world is never complete. There are 6 billion other souls each with their own experience. If they all agreed, there'd be little to talk about.
My statement is to refute the notion that most atheists have not been where christians are. I know many who have. Yes real christians who really believed, according to their notion of the word. I wouldn't challenge them on that any more than I would challenge you when you say you could never be an ex-christian.
I accept that fear doesn't keep you a christian.
And receiving a satisifactory answer is personal, not objective. You will never be satisified by an atheistic worldview answer because you can't conceive of being non-christian yourself.
This only tells me your position is entrenched. (for the purposes of discussion)
I am generally critical of atheists refusing to admit the possibility of god, but it is equally limiting (in my opinion) to refuse to admit the possibility of no god, in the context of debating evidence and possibilities.
And CoolDad's question was a 'what if'.
The answer being 'the what if is impossible' basically just says 'I'm not considering your hypothetical'.
No criticism, just my observation. For what its worth.
Just sharing. I too divorced myself from defined 'Christianity.' However, not God. Rarely will I discuss 'Jesus' since it is tied to 'Christianity.' And, wow, that is such a huge word - Christianity. For me, I find resolution in a personal relationship with God what ever that may be and boy am I glad it is personal other than the proclamation I do have a relationship with God. And, I don't believe in 'hell' either, so fear tactics just bounce of me. (and no I am not eluding to any comments stated here in this thread).
I am not sure if I am even replying to your statement now, but I am running with the ball, yet I have no idea what sport it is.
I began reading this thread as a quest of discovery to attempt an answer to Cooldad's question. It is long and the journey arduous, but I must leave now.
I don't ask questions evolving around religions,I also don't ask questions evolving around politics. These are personal issues and somethings you just have to keep to yourself.
Example: I was dating this guy and everything was wonderful,until he told me he voted for Bush. Never looked at him the same and I dropped him.
wow, this forum is still going strong. Amazing what one question can do.
Rastamermaid: if I may ask, why are you commenting in this forum then? I respect your opinion that you must keep your religious opinions to yourself, that's definitely your prerogative.
You really dumped a guy because he voted for Bush? Wow, sadly, that seems pretty shallow. You do realize that 99.9% of politicians are full of crap, whether Rep or Dem or white or black? Don't you?
I'm kind of the same though, I divorced my first wife because she didn't like fluffy pillows and I really liked fluffy pillows. I will never forget the day she told me, I couldn't look at her the same anymore. It was tough, but had to do it.
First, nothing that can be produced will ever change what I have been blessed to personally experience in my relationship with the Lord God, as it transcends all things. As stated in some other posts here... I guess I would therefore ALWAYS be in denial of any 'proof' for God's non-existence, for you cannot change the very core and fabric of my entire being.
Secondly, as the Holy Bible states, the disbelief in God (and Jesus Christ) was also predicted by the very same prophets who originally professed of His existence and foretold of His coming. Therefore, this widespread unbelief will carry on throughout all generations and continues even today.
"But although He had done so many signs before them, they did not believe in Him,
that the word of Isaiah the prophet might be fulfilled, which he spoke: Lord, who has believed our report? And to whom has the arm of the LORD been revealed?" (John 12:37-38 NKJ)
With prayers that many may open their hearts to the truth about the Lord.
All the most unqualified people would scramble for the position.
i answere and got drawn in by the title,really only God being in the title and I kind of like Him so it caught my eye.
When I mean keep my religious opinions to myself,let me clarify my answer,it should say keep my opinions about others religions to myself. I will never state I don't believe in God and I will never back down in my faith.But what I will never do is tell someone that their religion is crap or full of bull even if that's how I feel,I'll keep that to myself.
If you walk up to me in the street and ask me do you believe in God, I won't say,that's none of your business,I'll tell you proudly Yes,I do. When Jehovah witnesses come to my door,I don't answer and tell them their wrong,I just don't answer no need to harrass anyone for repping their religion but I don't have to hear it if I don't want to.
Yeah,I really did dump dude after he proudly told me he voted for Bush,let me know it was time to end that relationship. He's since changed his views but I'll never date him again.
And as far as being shallow,I'll take that,I've been called that before and worse. Some people think that since I will not date a man shorter than me makes me shallow. Sorry,you have to be yeah high to ride this attraction. Yeah, I'm shallow.But I own it.
No,I'm not a beauty queen by far,but I've never been pushed out of bed either.
I annulled my first marriage because he liked a very firm mattress and I loved the plush pillow tops,maybe in a different time like now we would've gotten a sleep number mattress to adjust his side for him and my side for me,damn technology just wasn't moving fast enough for our marriage I guess.
The first thing I would consider is under what government do I live in? Any place that has a functioning theocracy or Monarchy is going to be drastically affected. My imagination actually fails me in this regard. Those Governments will probably do what it takes to survive with varying degrees of success.
In countries that have secular governments, like the US, I don't think much will change.
I live in the US. How many people go to church out of habit? How many people actually live their lives as if they believe in God? I don't even think the churches will be affected very much. The writings will still exist, the values will not disappear, and people will latch onto something to give them hope. The churches will refocus. We would have a few less televangelists for while. Atheism would lose the only thing giving that movement life. That's what I think will happen in the US. Not an explosive movement of people, just a collective "Okay, what now?"
This possibility is closer then you may think.... As scientists and archaeoligists discover more and more historical information, it seems inevitable that life does exist on other planets within the universe and our own beginnings could have possibly been associated with beings that are not completely human.
Science is a ever evolving work that is about learning and discovery. The religions will bend and acommodate science to survive. I understand why this happens, can you imagine what would happen if as you said, it was proven that god did not exist?
I was brought up a christian but live my life looking for the truth and question everything. Most mainstream religions were formed in the 100 bc era to 200 ad.
We constantly keep finding new civilizations that are advanced dating way back. The latest discovery was a people who had amazing engineering skills and lived close to 12,000 years ago. They did not have a bible or commandments to follow.
The Australian aboriginal has been around for 36,000 years. A long time to survive without a bible.
Naturally they had their own gods, but nothing in writing.
Many religions will need to adjust accordingly and create a whole new bunch of interpretations and lies.
Makes it a bit hard to believe in a 6,000 year old earth I reckon.
But like most tribal people they did have stories handed down throughout generations,and were very aware of a higher spirit.
To the aborigines I know, almost everything is a higher spirit. They respect the planet in it's entirety and see animals,trees, places as highly spiritual.
That doesn't make them right either.
Six weeks ago, or so, I posted here a comment in relation to the existence or non--existence of God. I was in a hurry, had no time to finish what I intended to, and said that I would comeback to comment. However, I find it a little bit difficult. Because in order to prove the existence of God, one needs at least two hundred pages of work in which to detail on anything, beginning with the first to the last stage of enlightenment and ending with the structure of subatomic particles and the way they interact. I wrote a work in this sense which is in the process of editing.
One day I spoke with some religious people, told them about my research and handed them a small part of my research. They read the work but disagree that the existence of God could be proven. Then I handed the same work to a few who were fully convinced that there is no God. And they changed their mind.
I have to disagree with your first post to begin with. From that you made the premise 1 + 1 = 2. OK, are those whole numbers? or are they numbers rounded in your eXcel formatted spreadsheet and you only are exposing those numbers to me while beneath the surface lay the factor of n or some other confounded thing-a-ma-jig. I have yet to know what the definition of g(G)od is for this discussion. I won't try to elaborate, pleading ignorance to the answer, but have you ever just browser searched god or list gods? I mean just on the surface we have theism, monotheism, pantheism, etc and etc and etc. And, by the way symbolic logic may disagree stating that 1 + 1 = 3 and go as far as saying that is 1 and even maybe 9. I learn much from literature, the arts (including TV and Cinema), and I have a favorite quote from the cinema that opens the door to my skeptic mind, that does have an acceptance and acknowledgment to/of/for God, yet does not have a belief in such. Go figure. Anyway that quote is of George Malley in Phenomenon "Well, let's get specific, Bob!"
I liked this thread. And, to keep me on track I have to post your post for the purpose of focus.
Today it was proven that God does not exist.
What if this happened today. All the news networks, all the world leaders, all the scientists, all the leaders of churches announced that it was proven that God does not exist. Proven beyond any reasonable doubt whatsoever.
What would you do? How would society and the world react?
Personally, this is my day off. Usually I get home from work near midnight and don't have time for the forums like I would like, so I read this one top to bottom posting a little tid-bit here and there.
OK, honestly, the skeptic that I am. Also, accepting/acknowledging the God I have a familiarity with (since it is personal and in an earlier post I shared I call him my friend 'Fred') while not having a belief in God (quote "go figure") I would simply turn off the TV where I learned this news from, put on some music, then go to sleep. Since it is always today and I never taste tomorrow, then I would have to go with the premise it is continual - "Today, it was proven that God does not exist." That said, it must mean yesterday God did exist. I don't know whether to say 'whew' I was right then or not.
OK, there is the proof for the burden of proof for all those arguing on Cooldad's statement. For God to have been proven not to exist today, God must have existed yesterday. And, it is always today, therefore he is always being proven not to exist 'today' beginning with this today. The skeptic in me says OK, then when today? Where today? Or is it eluded to meaning 'now.'
The oddness of me says then if now, I mean right 'now,' then nothing is changed. I would still be typing this. Because, remembering this question is asking of 'me' and I don't have a belief in God anyway. However, I do accept / acknowledge God.
However the second question is very frightening. It conjures thoughts of Orson Wells radio prank for 1938 on the eve of Halloween. Need I say more.
Maybe who ever wrote this does not exist. What ever you our trying to say does not make a lot of sense. The answer is that the World denies that God exist everyday and will only deny it more in the future. Only those who seek God know of his existence, because that is how it works. If you deny God even if he showed you proof you would still deny his existence because that is how denial works.
No, religion is how megalomania and psychosis works.
I don't understand how inflated self esteem comes religion.
I have a diagnosis of bipolar disorder type I with psychosis, as per the DSM-IV-TR, as a specifier. The form of psychosis I experience is termed derealization. It stems from my experience with amnesia. Though psychosis it is not severe enough to have the diagnosis of dissociative disorder creating a comorbid diagnosis.
But, religiosity is a monitored symptom for bipolar disorder. That is one reason of many why I walked away from Christianity. And, that is why I usually don't discuss 'God' from a religious point of view. I prefer the philosophical view.
I distance myself from the supernatural somewhat to the extend I really won't go to a horror movie - LOL, Nothing to do with religion, it has to do with some weird gene, brain chemical imbalances, and that damned '52 chevy that rear ended my primo '67 VW bug with a 2180 pancake motor sporting two Webers with a roller crank and cam. Go figure. If you figure it out let me know, I would love to know.
Though true, I'm just fun'n with 'ya earnest.
Baloney. There are plenty of people who seek God but find nothing.
Maybe not everyone is meant to know God but though faith they keep believing
Did it not occur to you that would contradict the Bible and your beliefs as a Christian?
Some people can bench-press 500 pounds.
Some people can perform heart surgery.
Some people can move others to tears with a song.
Some people that can bench-press 500 pounds can't perform heart surgery.
Some people that can perform heart surgery can't sing or dance or play an instrument.
As in all other things, people are different.
Some can clearly and easily connect to God. For others it is more difficult.(which is probably where the basis for the formation of 'clergy' originated.)
Today it was proven that God does not exist
It is wrong; the Creator God always existed.
I doubt it would make any difference whatsoever. People will believe what they want to believe. There is still a Flat Earth Society, which considers anyone who believes the Earth to be a globe to be a heretic. The fact that we have images of the Earth taken from space, which show it not to be flat has not changed their beliefs at all.
http://www.alaska.net/~clund/e_djublons … ociety.htm
I'm sorry for the sarcasm you encountered, I too enjoy real discussion.
If it were possible to disprove God, 100%, no-doubt, then I would change my belief system.
I would realize that some of the teachings attributed to God have been an influence on me to be a better person and a better member of society. I guess my focus would shift oh so slightly from striving for Christ-like attributes, to striving for the attributes formerly known as Christ-like.
I don't think very much about what is important to me would change.
But I might stock up on guns and MREs, just in case...
The Creator God does exist; nobody has proved that He does not exist.
Nobody has proven, or disproven it.
Scientifically, he would have to be seen to be proven.
Philisophically, nothing can be proven(it might just be a dream).
Spiritually, proof is subjective.
Scientifically, he cannot be disproven. Science can't prove a negative, or set limits.
Philisophically, nothing can be disprove(it might just be a dream).
Spiritually, proof is subjective.
Trying to prove either way is fruitless. Discussing points of view(with respect), is actually pretty fun to me. The problem is too many people just laugh or put others down, rather than hold a mature discussion.
How would you suggest we have a mature discussion with someone who has an invisible friend joining in the conversation I wonder?
If 'an invisible friend' wants to join in the conversation, that would definitely be interesting, but nobody(except yourself) has suggested a conversation between us on these boards and a diety.
Or, your question could be different, the lack of punctuation makes it difficult to understand exactly what you mean. Sorry if that's the case.
You don't believe in the 'invisible friend', earnest so you are in fact dealing only with the human on the keyboard.
Clearly you feel that a belief in a diety makes one immature. As such, no 'mature' discussion is possible for you on this issue. A pity, as I suspect you have some good points that I would agree with.
If you've already decided not only that you are correct, but that deists are incorrect, and nothing will change that, how is that position substantially different than the theist who thinks their book is the one true way? (other than outcome)
sincere question, asked sincerely
Having a mature discussion would have one assume others are mature and are not bringing invisible sky fairies into the discussion.
As well, bringing logical fallacies into the discussion is also not very mature.
Hope that helps.
I've seen very logical positions presented immaturely, and very mature positions presented illogically. I don't think illogic = immature.
But the same question stands. If you choose to participate in a discussion about the existence of god and your only contribution is that a belief in god is immature why are you wasting your time and maturity on it? If you are certain there is not god, why bother?
by zzron 8 years ago
Atheists claim that God does not exist, show me the proof that backs up this claim.
by Chasuk 8 years ago
I'm an atheist, yet I'm open-minded enough to acknowledge that God might exist. If you are a theist, are you open-minded enough to acknowledge that He might not?
by paarsurrey 9 years ago
Is it within its domain?The Creator-God is only attributive; all physical and/or spiritual things are His creation.
by peterxdunn 6 years ago
Does this image prove - beyond all doubt - that God does not exist and that the Bible story...cannot be true?Look very carefully at this picture. It was taken by the Hubble Space Telescope (a true miracle of the modern age). The light from some of the galaxies shown here has been travelling through...
by cooldad 9 years ago
What if this happened today? All the news networks, all the world leaders, all the scientists, all the leaders of churches announced that it was proven that God DOES exist. Proven beyond any reasonable doubt whatsoever.I would say, "Crap, guess I was wrong. I will adjust and...
by stanwshura 6 years ago
What if God does not exist?What if there is no God. What if he was the invention of humanity trying to control humanity. What if God is to people what Santa Claus is to kids - somebody not to piss off because you just wanna get your loot (or place in "Heaven") in the end.
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