A personal choice between theism and natural evolutionary processes
Do you think it helps to ditch the idea of a god dictating our lives and turn, instead, to the natural evolutionary process of selection and survival of the fittest?
One of the most beautiful things about being an American is our freedom to make choices for ourselves. It doesn't matter what you decide to do, you have a right to do it, as long as no one is being injured by you actions. You are not hurting anybody by believing in either, theism or natural evolution. You make the choice.
As far as what helps. A prudent person would answer, "Who knows?"
Thank you. Do you consider that the freedom which Americans enjoy is also accorded to other nationalities?
DR. you are so correct. The individual chooses their path personally. They also choose their friends. Those that choose wisely prosper, while those that do not deal with despair. The unwise blame others for all that they brought upon themselves.
jonnycl; its not just American it is true of much of the world, with the exception of the Middle East. Religious freedom is pretty wide spread.
I reject the premise based on the fact that I am not aware of a God that dictates anyone's life. There is a God who teaches eternal truth and the consequences of not following universal law. That isn't the same as dictating the lives of people. Based on your question, which exposes your predisposition, I'm guessing you think the latter is the best idea. Sincere questions are usually better in inciting a positive dialogue.
Thank you. In your opinion, what are those "eternal truths," what is "universal law," and is your "predispositon" totally opposite to mine? My predisposition has not been declared, and I don't automatically exclude others.
weak minds always seek what is right in front of them, while the spiritually strong minded know exactly what it is. weak minds believe that science is foremost, spiritually strong minded know that science is a restrictive tool. God loves & forgiv
Weak minds believe only what is in their heads because they r afraid of the truth & that they have no answers & that they r not the center of the universe. Fear & delusion drive so many to hatred of truth & reality that they hide in t
Doing one's best for oneself is naturally the best option, and that drives natural selection.
This question takes us back to millions of years when thinking 'sapiens' probably started questioning and analyzing the existence of God versus the natural choice of survival of the fittest as perceived and enhanced by Darwin. The debate still rages on and will in all probability last till the humans inhabit this planet.
There are various ways to look into this interesting question before deriving at a conclusion. First, the personal interpretations and belief. Many of us do believe in the fact that there is a supreme power who created the first living environment and created situations with natural permutations and combinations for organisms to survive and thrive and finally evolve into Homo sapiens. But no religion in this world actually conveys the fact that God or Supreme Power controls each and every thought or action of the humans. All religions say that God creates situations and then leaves the rest to the 'Thinking' humans to arrive at their desired outcomes. It's easy to take comfort in the fact that God would do everything for us provided we have faith. But as the saying goes, 'God only helps those who help themselves', the same applies in the scientific theory of the survival of the fittest too.
Let's analyze it this way. An animal which has a good number of natural predators in a jungle- scientifically- what would be it's survival percentage? Can science or any theory actually give us the exact percentage? I don't think so:) Hence looking at this situation from a combined aspect of spirituality and science it would be fair to say that the supreme power would create circumstances or situations for the animal to survive. But whether the animal grabs those opportunities and makes the right decision at the right time would ultimately dictate it's survival on this planet.
The same applies for humans too. Yes! There is indeed a natural selection process or else everything on this planet would go out of control. But who has devised this practice of natural selection at the first place? The supreme Power? May be, but we wouldn't be sure Hence in my personal opinion I think life, it's existence, it's journey, it's end result are all pre-determined by a supreme power. However, what we make of the journey and it's eventual destination of success or failure is governed by our critical thinking, judgements and action taken at the right time and at the right place:)
A very well considered and presented answer. Thank you. Lots to think about there.
I think you would enjoy the New-Age religions and the 'Divine Consciousness' movement, quite well. Welcome to the '90s! LOL!
no one can answer "what came first - man or woman?" unless they read the Bible. The truth is written, and science cannot disprove it. Man lacks the ability to make something from nothing. God is the only one that possesses this power. God provides
tarburkett, most of your answers say science cannot answer any of the major questions & in the same breath u say the bible can. U r blind to reality. The bible is a book of fables; a collection put together by goat herders. Religion has no answer
Evolutionary is precisely outlined in theism.
26 Then God said, “Let us make mankind in our image, in our likeness, so that they may rule over the fish in the sea and the birds in the sky, over the livestock and all the wild animals,[a] and over all the creatures that move along the ground.”
27 So God created mankind in his own image,
in the image of God he created them;
male and female he created them.
28 God blessed them and said to them, “Be fruitful and increase in number; fill the earth and subdue it. Rule over the fish in the sea and the birds in the sky and over every living creature that moves on the ground.”
However, some in mankind wish to dispute this through theory based on man's limited scientific ability to evaluate the spirit of God.
History has shown that distorted emotions have often led to despondent apathy when individuals, communities, and nations have discarded the teachings of Jesus Christ.
Non-believers in the Trinity mistakenly accept the limited science due to their inability to perceive a higher being that performed such an event. With this denial the individual sets up a human deduced boundary where nothing except happenstance could have formed the world.
When encountering the age old question, "Which came first, the chicken or the egg?" The non-believers are stuck with no answer. However, those who follow the teachings of Jesus Christ know that it was the chicken that come first by the hand of God, the creator.
20 And God said, “Let the water teem with living creatures, and let birds fly above the earth across the vault of the sky.” 21 So God created the great creatures of the sea and every living thing with which the water teems and that moves about in it, according to their kinds, and every winged bird according to its kind. And God saw that it was good. 22 God blessed them and said, “Be fruitful and increase in number and fill the water in the seas, and let the birds increase on the earth.” 23 And there was evening, and there was morning—the fifth day.
24 And God said, “Let the land produce living creatures according to their kinds: the livestock, the creatures that move along the ground, and the wild animals, each according to its kind.” And it was so. 25 God made the wild animals according to their kinds, the livestock according to their kinds, and all the creatures that move along the ground according to their kinds. And God saw that it was good.
From that beginning-evolution was made.
".... the chicken that come first by the hand of God, the creator. "
Hahaha! The epitome of a good fairy story. And the chicken was the result of a virgin birth, so the rooster had no part to play in it.
as usual, the unbeliever mocks the words so truthfully written. but, as usual, they cannot present any proof that it is wrong. all they have is their tempest debauchery that attempts to lead others astray. what wickedness at play. God forgives.
taburkett........ jonny is so afraid of the truth that he has censored everything I have tried to say on this subject. Just like many atheists, he is afraid that his life is being controlled by a higher being than his intellectual mind cannot fathom.
I am not taking sides here, but I have to say the "truth" is a word that rings hollow when spoken by the religious. You know nothing about truth as your religion is made up & you believe fairy tales told by parents. Can't u see. U r blind to trut
Reality..... My friend, you are the one's who "choose" to remain lost because you cannot see, nor will you entertain the truth. The reason being is simple fear and ego. You cannot allow the truth in your life because this would leave you vulnerable.
JThomp42, I also think of u as friend; we have conversed before. But u still don't know me. U gave up the search 4 truth; u r lost, not me. I know where I am. I see, hear; u don't. Ego is believing u know with no facts - that is religion, not me.
The speciation concepts via the Theory of Evolution are asinine. Of course you, being a scripture fanatic, would probably try to fit it in somehow to the, uh, other scripture as well; ha-ha!
I have censored nothing. I am using an Android and got muddled up with buttons. It helps tto keep up my I.Q against the God Factor.
Yeah, JThomp42, Jonny hasn't censored anything or else I'd have already been deleted! Just take the bottom seat like me, and enjoy your stay at the 'answers hidden due to negative feedback' cushion! LOL!
You can't use the bible to confirm religion or the existence of a god any more than you can use Grimm's fairy Tales to confirm the existence of trolls or fairies .
Borsia, you stole my Grimm Fairy Tales line. lol. We are on the same train...
It just never ceases to amaze me how many people are fixated on theism. Evolution is a theory. A theory is not a guess as some define it. A theory is something relatively believed by most once borne out by experiment & rational thought. Religion is just plain guess work & wishing.
I agree with the good doctor that choice is a good thing. But disagree that believing in religious fantasies is good for anyone. Being delusional about life helps no one. Doctors were not born of delusion. They were born of the need to cure & heal; something prayers do not do. And if the religious want to dispute that fact then stop going to doctors & just pray whenever you break something or become seriously ill. It amazes me how people turn to human ingenuity for such things as feeding ourselves, shelter, protection from natural disasters, sickness and whatnot, yet then praise an invisible god for all they have as if he gave it to them.
Please think. The god most of you follow is the fairy tale your parents told you as a child. You learned that Santa Claus & the Easter Bunny weren't real, why can't you understand that your man god is a made-up fairy tale as well. The bible so many quote is a collection of fables passed down & written by men; not the hand of god. The New Testaments were written some 40 years after the life of the Rabi Jesus; and, there is little proof Jesus even existed; even Jesus the man may be made up. Joseph Smith made up Mormonism; read that tale. Mohammad married into wealth & made up tales. The Israelites, who have suffered at the hands of so many other religious groups, and who started the big three, made up a god to put them at the center of importance as "chosen ones."
Yes, we can all believe what we want, but should we? Religious thinking set back progress by centuries & caused untold numbers of deaths & still causes rational people to hide their beliefs for fear of being ostracized socially & economically by the religious. The religious do not want to admit they have not one ounce of proof their fantasies are real and in fact they live their lives proving even they don't believe in their fantasies. If the religious so strongly believe in a man-god, faith & the power of prayer & the wonders of heaven they would forgo all science, pray instead of seeing doctors & welcome death to enter their heaven. But they don't.
OH - those of little faith. How much have they missed of the spirit as they stumble through their limited science. Science limited by faulty manmade experiment & rational thought due to the restrictive foundation of nature alone. Blessed is the
taburkett. You are an example of what I am talking about. Lost in a non-lit box unable to see. I have spirit. I see. I hear. You make up answers & project your own religious flaws on reality which you label as science. I so wish I could save you.
taburkett, if science doesn't meet your expectations for the world, it is not science that is limited; it is your expectations that are inflated.
science fails through the restrictions of man. man was made in God's image, but was not given God's powers. those who are weak to the spirit believe the boundaries of science. those strong with the spirit are never restricted. God is righteousness
God was made in man's image. Why else would god have a mouth, a stomach, lungs, a heart & a rectum. Man's ego & fear created a Superman in his image. A Superman that even impregnated a woman. Sounds like a child's comic book.
I don't have a problem combining the two theories...I do have a problem with any god telling me how my life is destined to be lived...I'd rather be godless than simply playing out some predestined soap opera/
I don't like the idea of a god dictating how we should live either. That's a very human weakness...control freakishness...I'd rather be an "out control" freak than lorded over by some dictator Hitler God.
Jesus Christ was sent to earth to inform. He is the path to forever lasting love. God does not dictate-but-simply apprises the individual of their fate due to the decisions they make. It is the individual that dictates their own destiny. God loves
I don't see any reason to accept anything but the evolutionary process as a fact. There is zero, zip, zilch evidence for "god did it." Until there is actual evidence which the Creationists seem to be having a real problem doing, I'm rolling with science. ☺
Science of course is the pursuit of fact, understanding, openness to new ideas and being able to predict outcomes. Religion relies upon theory, beliefs, superstition and, often, a closed mind.
science is restricted by its human factor - the Spirit of God has no restriction. When the Spirit is praised, wisdom has been achieved. When science is praised, restrictions are embraced. zero science for which came first - the chicken or the egg
There HAD to be a rooster! Did he come first? Or the Hen?
Or maybe god did a little trick with the yoke and made it double....
2% of the world is atheist and another 9.66% are non-religious according to Wikipedia. That would mean a vast majority of scientists believe in a god. Which god and how much is un-known. Evolution says no god needed. Strange fact isn't it!
JS those numbers are close for the US but if you read the whole report they seem rather doubtful. Especially when you consider China with 1.3 B most of whom are atheist, also true of Russia. Europe is about 18%, etc
According to a latest survey, 85% of Chinese people have religious beliefs or had some religious practices and only 15% of them are real atheists. (The real atheists here refer to those who do not have faith in any religions).
Yes the Chinese do have religions Buddhism and Taoism, both atheistic religions without gods. I lived in China for 2 years and never met a single theists.
The religious current of Taoism evolved its own pantheon of deities that were worshipped in temples by the various sects. These Taoist deities, like the Buddhist or Hindu pantheon, represented different qualities and attributes and various ceremonies
Let's see... one comes from science - observation, experimentation, hypothesize and repeat to the point of proving that evolution does occur (yes, it does) and one is premodern mythology. As much as I enjoy mythology (my personal favorites are Norse and Greek myth!) it's fiction, or spiritual exercise at most. Yes, I think people should study science. But I don't necessarily think religion and God(s) don't have a place with people who pursue them, there's just a difference between spiritual belief and actual physical belief that a dude up there is playing us like chess.
You keep writing, Aliasis.... you are doing very well. Thank you so much for a well thought out and expressed opinion.
Believing every trending theory in science is not well thought out. Playing with dino bones is not true science, by the way. Everything adapts and evolves, but saying a raptor turned into a turkey is ridiculous.
"but saying a raptor turned into a turkey is ridiculous.." Absolutely agree... but who WOULD say that? Is it some kind of 4th July in-joke?
I've heard it many times from die-hard, hardcore evolutionists, seriously... : /
Then such people are very ignorant, or simply uneducated. Charles Darwin would never have suggested such a thing. I recommend reading "The Bonobo and the Atheist" by Frans de Waal.
I always find it interesting that evolution is based on survival of the fittest, but clearly the newest mutation would be the least likely to survive. Then along comes man, definitely not the strongest, but the smartest, and we have survived over numerous extinct creatures better suited to survive on earth. This is supposed to be the best theory.
On the other hand, you have a GOD that does creation in a very logical order and creation gets tossed out as fantasy.
There are many unanswered question that will never be answered here on earth,but decided on the other side of death. That is really where you pray you've made the right decision.
You are welcome to that opinion, Bill, who am I to argue? But it is not my choice of view.... for me there is nothing, repeat nothing, on the other side of death, so to waste this life would be pointless. I hope you will respect if not agree with me
I don't think that it generally effects the way people live, the majority of any society is good, Christians are just forgiven. That choice will only matter if there is a Heaven or Hell, otherwise we all just die.
Would you like to tell us your vision of what "heaven" and "hell" would be like?
Revelations gives a pretty good description of both, but for your sake, I'll pray you just die and don't have to face any trials or White Throne Judgments. I would that all would chose Jesus and not take the chance.
To experience anything like suggested in Revelations would require us to have ears, and eyes, and noses, and tongues, and skin....without those sense organs, there can be no punishment, as per Revelations. Is that too logical for you?
Jesus's resurrected body had all those things. I would imagine our resurrected bodies would have these same capabilities.
Magical, no doubt. The imagination can do the impossible.
jonny.... You are absolutely right on this one. It can even make you think what you are saying makes any type of valid point.
Man's time is very short compared to most and we have already poisoned our gene pool to the point that only medical science keeps us going.
I agree with you JCL after life comes dirt.
If man continues to believe in death as inevitable & heaven as acceptable, death will always be. But if man believes he & only he controls his destiny, science will search ways to extend life and an afterlife may not be necessary someday.
Haha, I see from your profile that you like to push the boundaries of discussion.
Who just brought cybernetics into this discussion? LOL!
Jonny, if the "pushing boundaries" is meant for me, guilty as charged. What fun can be had merely telling people what they want to hear? Great discussions come from hot topics. lol.
I also enjoy debate, if we quit learning from each other and struggling to increase our knowledge, what hope is there for our society. Jonny and Reality, thanks always for comments.
jasfishinman, I look forward to debate on other issues in the future. All the best to you!
Me too! Sometimes "pushing the boundaries" might involve getting a bit angry with each other... but that only indicates passion, surely, so let's keep coming back for more
Well, whoever "pushed it to the limits" with cybernetic cyborg action, needs to report back and back it up with some hardcore rat studies. LOL! I can argue for either side; I'm good...
The most important thing is to apply critical thinking to every aspect of what you can believe. Many want us to believe that the bible is a history book,,, is it?
If you take things in turn and ask real questions rather than simply accepting them you have to ask "what is really possible" Moses is said to have wandered the desert with his huge group of followers. But no artifact has ever been found to show such a passage ever took place. Did they wander for 40 years without ever making encampments? They never discarded anything? What did they eat? What did they drink? Its a freaking desert!
Could the Arc ever have worked in real life? If one loaded a pair of animals every 5 seconds it would have taken something like 30 years just to board. We know that a wooden boat with a length of over 325' will self destruct in fairly calm water simply because the bow and stern rise and fall independently as swells pass twisting the frame. This is why no ships were ever made of such proportions in later years with vastly better technology. Again what did they eat? If there were pairs then after the animals departed the carnivores would have wiped out the herbivores in very short order. How is it that all marsupials ended up in Australia, all of the wildebeest in Africa, etc.
There are gaping holes in virtually every biblical story.
Ask yourself not what you would like to believe but rather what you can believe.
Apply this to every aspect of your life.
As for evolution vs creation, evolution has vast scientific backing we can see it all around us while creation has nothing supporting it other than blind faith of followers.
Personally I can believe evolution.
If you are looking at evolution vs creation, both have significant holes in them. Some of these gaps can be explained, but most are just vast holes in the theories. Both theories rely on faith in them to last. I personally chose God over man.
Evolution doesn't relate with creation anyway. I think some of these people are confusing evolution for the silly primordial soup theory.
We don't need to "believe in" evolution. It's a theory, prompting questions, searching for answers, testing those answers, sharing the information and enjoying the journey. Religion is the font of "belief," proof is not sort, discouraged even.
jsfishinman, it's interesting that you say "I personally chose God over man" when choosing between evolution & creation. Both are theories of MAN, not god. And at least evolution is a theory based on research of men, not guess work of men.
Jonny, both theories are searching for answers. Evolution searches for answers without God. Creationist search for answers without any evolutionary science. Both tend to be close minded in their approach to research.
That "closed-mindedness" is a characteristic of us all.... humans, per see, regardless of religious/non-religious. If we were all open-minded these discussions would hardly go the way they do....don't you think?
Evolution is not a closed-minded argument. U both fail 2 see that science experiments; finds proof; then establishes theory. Theory is always open to be discredited or proved. That is science! Religion says, "I know. Do not question." No comparison.
I know this is an over-used cliche, "It takes all sorts to make a world." But it is true that each of us will see a situation from a different angle. The more "I/We" are willing to listen to the other point of view and inwardly digest, the better.
jonny, I mean all good to & 4 u, but I disagree. Some things do require sight from all angles, but some things must be recognized as pure fantasy. Science is a search 4 truth. Religion is not. Superman cannot be taken seriously or the Dark Ages a
I totally agree that all religion is pure fantasy. However, I also recognize the human (apparent) need to believe in something outside of the logical, physical "real" world, and have some sympathy with the religious.... not siding with it though.
Jonny, I agree people need answers & fear drives them to believe fantasy. But historically many have died & medicine & scientific achievements have been retarded by fear of reality. Ignorance & delusion always end in despair when real
I was reading a philosophy site the other day, about the existence or non-existence of God. It had some interesting scientific facts of both sides of the argument.
jsfishinman, check out the book entitled "Evolution vs. Creationism," by Eugenie C. Scott. It sheds some light on the matter.
Justfish; you might want to check your sources a bit; that website is run by a theistic ministry,, hardly credible.
jsfishinman, I read a lot too. My house is a library. lol. Nice to know someone else likes to read, I assume more than watching television.
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