School coroporal punishment . . . Yey or Nay?

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   tsmogposted 2 years ago

   High school students in Cassville, Missouri this year saw the discipline policy changed where corporal punishment is new to it. It seems to have been urged by the parents. The following is from their handbook:
   
   "CORPORAL PUNISHMENT
   Corporal punishment is the use of physical force as a method of correcting student behavior. Corporal punishment, as a measure of correction or of maintaining discipline and order in schools, is permitted. However, it shall be used only when all other alternative means of discipline have failed, and then only in reasonable form and upon the recommendation of the principal. Corporal punishment shall be administerd only by swatting buttocks with a paddle."
   
   Corporal punishment is Constitutional based on a Supreme Court ruling with Ingraham v. Wright in 1977. Nineteen states today it is legal mainly in Southern states. Is there a connection that that is the Bible Belt? It has been in decline since the 70's. Do you think Cassville's decision it may trend again in other school districts?
   
   Personally throughout my school days from 1960-1961 to 1971-1972. I was subjected to paddling until 1969 - 1970 school year when I moved from WVA back to CA. Yet, the first time I was paddled was 1965-1966 (5th grade) school year in CA. The most times I was paddled in WVA was for talking in class in a math class. In other words being disruptive I guess. In the 7th grade I started keeping a wallet in my pocket and leaned that side of my butt toward the paddling as a defensive move.
   
   So, what do you think should it be brought back? If so, should it only be for high school? Does it have value? Did you face corporal punishment growing up in school?
   
   More info . . .
   
   Missouri district brings back corporal punishment — at the urging of parents, it says
   Letting parents opt in to corporal punishment dulls opposition but has all the same consequences for kids by Hechinger Report Sept 1, 2022
   https://hechingerreport.org/missouri-di … s-it-says/
   
   Paddling Makes a Comeback in a Missouri School District
   Corporal punishment had been in a slow decline before the pandemic, but remains legal in 19 states, mostly in the South. The practice makes children more aggressive and disruptive, researchers say.
   By New York Times Aug 27, 2022
   https://www.nytimes.com/2022/08/27/us/c … hools.html

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      tsmogposted 2 years agoin reply to this

      Oops!! Terrible spelling with OP Title. Should be School Corporal Punishment . . . Yea or Nay?

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      GA Andersonposted 2 years agoin reply to this

      I was paddled once in a summer camp, for doing something that wasn't nice.  It worked, and I didn't do it again while I was there.
      
      My parents believed in it, especially my mother and her 'switches'. I don't think I was damaged for life. As a parent, I did not spank the kids, beyond an occasional toddler butt swat.
      
      I don't think it should be done, (or brought back), because the long-term effect is teaching the spankee that violence is an acceptable force to get what you want. The short-term effects of punishment and deterrents don't last long but the impression that violence is a tool does.
      
      I think it's a really bad idea for high school-age kids.
      
      However, that's a decision for parents to make for themselves. I can see this being more of a 'conservative' view, as in the Southern states.
      
      GA

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         wildernessposted 2 years agoin reply to this

         "I don't think it should be done, (or brought back), because the long-term effect is teaching the spankee that violence is an acceptable force to get what you want."
         
         Does it teach that the kid can get what they want with violence, or does it teach that poor behavior has painful consequences?  I would question whether a 4th grader would make the leap to "I can get what I want by hurting people, just as this teacher is"

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            GA Andersonposted 2 years agoin reply to this

            I considered the 'cost' aspect—the price of the behavior. Make it too high, (painful), and the behavior might not be worth it. That's a valid point.
            
            I see your 4th grader thought differently. They are like sponges. I can easily see ripe ground for the seed of my original comment—they will think that if it worked on them, (not the violence of 'hurt' but the use of force), then it would work on their younger brother or friends.
            
            How much of that kind of behavior is our natural human instinct and how much is environmental teachings is more than I know.
            
            GA

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      2. 86

         tsmogposted 2 years agoin reply to this

         I am in quandary if it should be a practice in school. And, what grades.
         I get there will be both positive and negative qualities of it such as your view. Perhaps force/punishment vs. reasoning/instruction at play. There are things at play like the parents throwing their arms in the air about the kid's behavior, thus don't opt out hoping an outside influence will cause a change that the parent is unable to cause. And, as you shared a conservative view of punishment. I will ponder some more and look about later.
         
         I did note with Cassville handbook it stated corporal punishment is "upon the recommendation of the principal". I don't know what that means. Does it mean only the principal can do it? And, parents can opt out. So, parents do have control over it, thus their values at play. 
         
         I do know from my experience the 5th grade experience meant nothing to me. I don't even remember why I was paddled. The 7th grade experience to this day is I hate that that math teacher. Both times were for talking to the student next to me who asked for help. So, in essence I did not think it was justified while feeling he had something against me because I was from Calif.

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            Kathryn L Hillposted 2 years agoin reply to this

            - sorry you got such harsh treatment, tsmog.
            Teachers have it rough. They are supposed to keep the class quiet.
            If they don't, they are labeled bad teachers.  Apparently, the objective is to open up their students' brains and pour information into them. If the students are not quietly focusing on one thing and one thing only: the teacher and the lesson, the teachers fear the administration will fire them or something.
            
            In general, teachers are full of great fear and restraint ... especially math teachers.
            
            As a sub with a Montessori background, when possible, I let the students  help one another and also do self-motivated work. (I couldn't let the permanent teachers know, though.)

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   Kathryn L Hillposted 2 years ago

   The parents are failing on some level to want their kids (of any age) to be spanked by school authorities.
   
   This nation is really suffering.

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   Kathryn L Hillposted 2 years ago

   The kids are not alright.

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   Teddletonmrposted 2 years ago

   Interesting subject; my dear wife has taught high school fro the past 30-plus years. In a Rual community where kids and their parents expect all accommodations made for the kids. Litigious minded all; give my kid good grades despite he/she do as little possible work ethic.
   A teacher dare not insist upon or expect any level of respect from students and or their parents.
   The question of discipline need not be asked of applied.  Doing so puts job of teaching in jeopardy. The kids/students rule. Teachers can only hope to survive.

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   Kathryn L Hillposted 2 years ago

   As a sub, I had a very easy solution to discipline:
   
   I would have the student who was acting up sit quietly next to me in a chair.
   
   I would not act as if the student was upsetting me or the class. (I realized the student was bored, restless or tired.)
   
   I would call it the Resting Chair. With younger students, the resting chair was near me, but in high schools, I placed the chair farther away.
   
   This solution worked every time. The restless and bored student was given a chance to calm down and relax. ... maybe this special treatment helped him accept the classroom situation.
   
   And yes, it was always boys who became restless.
   I NEVER had a difficult female student. Now that I think of it.
   
   ... and why is that?
   Because boys have a lot of masculine energy which needs to be channeled through the use of will: as in their own. Girls have an easier time being compliant, cooperative and docile.

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6. 80

   Kathryn L Hillposted 2 years ago

   As a sub, I thought a special room for the "trouble makers" would be another solution. This room would be a place where students, who couldn't handle the classroom that day or period, would be sent to focus on homework or free-reading. The room would be equipped with encyclopedias and books, maybe a library type setting. Independent study and research could also be encouraged. No radios, computers, or phones would be allowed. This environment would give students a break from the regular classroom. There would be a teacher in charge of the room who would check these students in and out and insist on particular boundaries, such as no rough-housing, talking back, calling out loudly, or complaining rudely.
   
   Yes?

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      Stephen Tomkinsonposted 2 years agoin reply to this

      Not a bad idea at all. But it's a little like quarantine - it's isolating the problem but can't address it.

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         Kathryn L Hillposted 2 years agoin reply to this

         How does it not address the problem?
         
         What IS the problem in your mind?

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   Kathryn L Hillposted 2 years ago

   PS Here in CA, if you are a teacher and you hit a child for any reason, you will be sued. End of story.

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8. 96

   Readmikenowposted 2 years ago

   I was paddled in school.  It was a time when the teachers were the boss in the classroom.  You acted out, you got punished.  I was paddled for standing up for myself against bullies.  My wife works in a school.  She gets sworn at, hit, and more by kids.  If a teacher defends themself, they are the ones who may be punished. 
   
   I feel if I could take it, the kids of today can take it as well.  Kids have too much power in the classroom. 
   
   I'm for it.

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      Kathryn L Hillposted 2 years agoin reply to this

      Students who are not given enough power or respect end up taking power and demanding respect. Striking them is not the answer.
      Parents need to be brought in and become part of the solution. If there are problems at home, perhaps family counselors can be recommended. Children and teens act out when their needs are not being met.
      
      What are their needs?

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         Readmikenowposted 2 years agoin reply to this

         I could not disagree more.
         
         Kids need to have consequences for their actions.  You have some really lousy parents out there.
         
         No, I say corporal punishment makes the kids responsible for their actions. It's not the teacher's fault or the fault of other kids in the classrooms somebody doesn't have a life of Shangri la. Too many bad kids disrupt classrooms for kids who want to learn.
         
         When we had corporal punishment in schools, we had much less problems with discipline.
         
         I worry more protecting the kids who behave and want to learn.  The others can be put in a separate school for kids who behave like them.  I hear stories about horrible kids with rotten parents every day.
         
         Let them go to a separate school or accept corporal punishment.

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            Kathryn L Hillposted 2 years agoin reply to this

            Punishments are rarely effective. What is a better check?  Surprisingly, Religion! It wasn't the paddling that kept us in line, but rather, the fear of God and disapproval from our parents. We, as a society, learned, revered and lived by the Ten Commandments. In the not so distant past, we went to church and kept the Sabbath Day holy. We celebrated Christmas and Easter at home and in school. These commandments were the basis of our society and culture.
            
            Violence is not following Biblical precepts as taught by Jesus. Paddling is not part of "discipline".  Instead, in its place, are the following:
            Providing freedom.
            Setting boundaries.
            Training in How to Live.
            Educating in accordance with imparting survival skills.
            Fairness, respect and acceptance of *"the child" and being conscious of his needs.
            
            *"The child" as seen and understood in the light of universally occurring stages of child development, which unfold according to nature.

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               wildernessposted 2 years agoin reply to this

               "It wasn't the paddling that kept us in line, but rather, the fear of God and disapproval from our parents."
               
               You are probably correct, at least to some degree.  But I personally would find it rather sad that our only solution to the crime and violence we're seeing is to brain wash our young children with fantasy and myth rather than truth.  There has to be a better way.

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                  Kathryn L Hillposted 2 years agoin reply to this

                  The Ten Commandments can be seen as rules to happiness.
                  Where did they come from but The (a) Creator Himself!
                  
                  Sorry to bug you like this, wilderness.

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               Readmikenowposted 2 years agoin reply to this

               "Punishments are rarely effective. What is a better check?  Surprisingly, Religion!"
               
               Oh, my relatives who went to Catholic School and were hit with rulers, yardsticks, etc. by nuns would disagree with you.  They called one of the sisters "Nunja."  The perfect blend of religion and violence.

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                  Kathryn L Hillposted 2 years agoin reply to this

                  ...and they were connected with a God of Love, Acceptance and Forgiveness?
                  
                  No. They were connected with notions of Fear and Punishment.
                  
                  The rod of discipline is not the rod of a yardstick coming down upon little fingers or onto little butts. Discipline, seen in the proper light, is consistently setting appropriate and useful boundaries to help a child absorb what is vital toward (eventually) guiding his (own) life. What he absorbs as a child will be indelible. His sense of reality of what is done and not done is firmly established in the early years of his life. He completely depends on the guidance he receives from his parents/guardians and teachers.
                  
                  If a child is not given consistent training and guidance, he will have no boundaries and will most likely run willy-nilly through life trying this behavior and that, irritating others, pretending to his own greatness and taking power over others.
                  
                  The only check is the love of God.
                  Jesus says so.
                  Love is not hitting.
                  Love is consistency in guiding and training a child toward a harmonious, successful life.

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                     Kathryn L Hillposted 2 years agoin reply to this

                     What makes successful child rearing possible?  The child's love for us, his parents, guardians and teachers.
                     
                     Kill that love with overreaching tyranny, and the child ... and society,
                     are both doomed.

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                     Readmikenowposted 2 years agoin reply to this

                     "The rod of discipline is not the rod of a yardstick coming down upon little fingers or onto little butts. Discipline, seen in the proper light, is consistently setting appropriate and useful boundaries to help a child absorb what is vital toward (eventually) guiding his (own) life. "
                     
                     Well, I'd like to see your attitude if you worked in my wife's school and were sworn at, talked down to, at times spit at and screamed at and even hit, threatened by children day after day after day for an entire school year.
                     
                     I bet after such an experience you'd have a bit of a different attitude.
                     
                     There are some kids who are just plain awful.
                     
                     It is so easy just to talk.

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                        Kathryn L Hillposted 2 years agoin reply to this

                        As I mentioned, I worked as a substitute teacher K-12 for twenty years.
                        In one classroom, one of the Junior High students actually thanked me for showing respect to the class. This compliment revealed that it (respect) was usually not shown or felt.

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                           Readmikenowposted 2 years agoin reply to this

                           A substitute teacher.  You weren't in charge of a classroom.  You didn't have to deal with the parents. The lesson plans were all made out for you.  Did you have to deal with many special needs kids?  How about the problem kids?  No, as a substitute you were there a few days and moved on.  Not the same as being an actual teacher.

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                              Kathryn L Hillposted 2 years agoin reply to this

                              Neither job is easy and subs have it even worse. Surely, your wife knows that.
                              
                              If a school is that out of control and that unhappy ... to point of spitting, I would certainly not work there.
                              
                              ~ why are the students acting the way they do, where you wife works?
                              
                              I retired in '19. I NEVER saw such behavior.
                              Has something happened in the last two years?
                              ... say the effects of the lock-down or the heavy use of computers, (Chrome Books/Common Core curriculum) in the classroom?

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   Nathanvilleposted 2 years ago

   An interesting topic:  I was well behaved at school and home, so I was never subjected to corporal punishment at school or at home; and likewise, neither was my wife.  So, when we had our child, we made a conscious decision not to use any form of corporal punishment on him; and we never needed to.
   
   As regards schools in the UK - Corporal Punishment was made illegal (a criminal offence) in schools in England, Wales and Northern Ireland in 1986, and in Scotland in 1987.
   
   Corporal Punishment at home (by parents) became unlawful in the UK in 2004, except where this amounts to 'reasonable punishment' e.g. parents can be prosecuted for using unreasonable or excessive force.
   
   Whereas in Scotland in 2019, and in Wales in 2020 Corporal Punishment at home was completely banned (made illegal):  Therefore, children in Scotland and Wales now have the same protection in law from physical assault as adults do; this means parents could face arrest and criminal charges for any use of physical punishment on their children.
   
   Interestingly, more than 60 countries in the world (including most of Europe) have now banned the physical punishment of children in schools and at home.

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      tsmogposted 2 years agoin reply to this

      Thanks! This caused me look about for corporal punishment in the family setting. Seems it is legal in the U.S., yet can dance with abuse, which is illegal, though laws vary by state. The link following from LawInfo gives some good insight on it.
      
      When Does Discipline Become Abuse?
      https://www.lawinfo.com/resources/crimi … abuse.html

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         Nathanvilleposted 2 years agoin reply to this

         Thanks for the link; it was interesting in seeing what the boundaries between discipline and abuse for corporal punishment in family settings in the USA – acknowledging the fact that laws vary from State to State.
         
         As you will have read above, any form of corporal punishment in the family setting is a criminal offence in Scotland and Wales; and it’s also illegal in England and Northern Ireland, except where it amounts to ‘reasonable punishment’.
         
         So I was interested in getting an understanding of what, under British law, ‘reasonable punishment’ means; and the answer is quite simple:  Anything other than smacking is illegal, and smacking becomes illegal if it becomes more than an incident e.g. frequently smacking your child in England and Northern Ireland would be classified as abuse.
         
         So it would seem that the laws in Britain for disciplining your child at home are a lot tighter than they are in the USA:
         
         One official link I found, which gives the details of what I’ve summarised above is:-
         
         https://surreyscb.procedures.org.uk/hky … d-smacking

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    Kathryn L Hillposted 2 years ago

    Your wife, as a teacher of her own classroom, was:
    
    1.) Sworn at
    
    2.) Talked down to
    
    3.)  Spit at
    
    4.)  Screamed at
    
    5.)  Hit
    
    6.) Threatened
    
    ... by children." !
    
    Again, HOW COME?????
    
    Please reveal: What age/grade are the children and what type of neighborhood is the school located in??

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