hb2281 law that bans ethnic studies in public classrooms. Wow! Says something about restricting the teaching of oppression.... shall I even go on. Their aim is to erase what happened to the Mexicans.
They want all studies restricted for teaching that Arizona used to be part of Mexico, that they cannot rise up and take back their land...
I am aghast. If you thought the other laws were bad, this takes the cake. Just erase history, keep people in the dark. Don't let them learn about their heritage.
I am totally agreeing with Dr. Romero.
This other crazy lady is saying that they are segregated classes because the majority of the students who take the latino studies classes are Mexican. Doyee! The majority of Arizona is Latino what the heck would they expect.
crazy, to the max and to think that this is part of the USA, born out of the concept of free thought and highest level of academic tolerance
Thank you sandra for bringing this to us
History should be thought like what it is! the students are intelligent enough to know and analyze what they are learning.
Not to mention that to not learn from your past mistakes is the best way to repeat them.
I don't know much about this situation, but I am a firm believer that we can't suppress our past, whether it was right, wrong or indifferent. Examining it is the only real way to move forward.
I'll have to read up on this a little.
This gives me chills. Just yesterday I was talking to my friend who was telling me and a few other people a story about how he would get hit in school (in his day also a private school), how he was going to get hit because he called another student a honkey because the student kept calling him a nigger.
Long story short, he says that the teacher who was ready to whoop up on him wouldn't give him a chance to prove his innocents...he was talking about how he grew up in NC, the KKK etc...
So another woman who was listening to the story says, "OMG, I didn't know that that stuff actually happened. I asked my husband if all this stuff they were portraying on TV was true and he said yes."
It's like WW2 when the Nazi's tried to rewrite their history. *shutter*
scary because it is really happening everywhere,
Wasn't it you that said a few months ago that your husband believed that it "this" whatever "this" is would turn into a race war?
"They want all studies restricted for teaching that Arizona used to be part of Mexico, that they cannot rise up and take back their land..."
Leaving aside the fact that the above comment about prohibiting teaching about what territory Mexico lost in the war is patently untrue, are you saying that you want to teach certain things in order to encourage certain people to "rise up and take back their land"?
Don't even go there. I am not like some of you who believe that every issue brought up is about hate okay. It's about principals and according to what I was watching on the CNN interview before I opened this thread, the lady who was speaking for the ban actually said that she doesn't want the students to be taught that Arizona used to be part of Mexico. And that they banned the latino studies program from their curriculum because the students feel resentment and want to take back the land. Those were her words.
I think it is impossible to have a real discussion on real issues these days on HP without people calling it hysteria or hate speech. If everyone views everything as hate speech or haterism, then everything is just going to be hate speech and haterism.
Why do you care, My Goddess? Don't you have local problems to worry about?
Well Handsome, since living in Hawaii I get to hear and see what 'this' does to the Native community.
Here the biggest complaint from the natives is that the kids are losing touch with their heritage. They hardly speak their native tongue anymore. Only few people actually do. They are not allowed to teach in their native tongue but have to use English.
They say that the traditional ways of doing things are being forgotten because the 'white man' makes it illegal for them to do. Their land is being divided up, traditionally, the hula was only to be taught to certain individuals who were picked for whatever reason but because of the American and Christian influence, they have to let everyone dance the hula. They are not allowed to fish using some of their traditional methods and are even forbidden to fish in certain areas.
Plus, from a personal perceptive, though 100% American born and raised, I am still Filipino, German, Irish, Native Indian and who knows what else. So if they can do it to one group then they will do it to others and eventually everyone will be the same.
Then again, I think you are just asking because you think I am being silly.
You hit the nail on the head Your Majesty!
You just described a several serious ethnic/cultural problems in the area where you live. Why Arizona then? Why not to tackle those where you can actually make a difference?
Oh, and btw, I am a minority too - and I honestly don't demand American schools teach my kids Russian history - I better do this myself, ya know
Point taken but what could I do here? I am not even a real resident yet. If it was another state that wanted to do this, then the topic would be about that state, so that is why Az. lol
IDK Sandy, I never been there so can't possibly tell, and frankly pushing global or semi-global goals is not my piece of bread. I prefer helping individuals when they need help. This way you feel the results, ya know
Of course, that is what makes you, you. I didn't think this thread would turn out the way it did. Just saying what I heard this morning on the news and giving and opinion.
I guess I got that thing that makes people get all sorts of crazy. Hahahahaha, I must be all woman. But global or semi global? It doesn't go that far, at least I don't think so.
It's just an Az. thing which caught my attention because of the demography so I found it to be extremely absurd and deceiving at best.
I'm all for their new law and stance on illegal immigration, as most people are, but this one seems a bit...over the top.
Then again, it's illegal in california to teach kids in spanish.
HOLD ON A SECOND!! THIS IS SHOCKING!!!!
Are you trying to tell me that they actually have schools in Arizona???
I wouldn't provide allusions to WW 2. Especially with people doing the same with Arizona's other law which is being slandered as such.
"If I am not from this country and I get stopped for driving recklessly I have to actually show proof of identity and citizenship?! Outrageous!"
Here is the bill http://www.azleg.gov/legtext/49leg/2r/bills/hb2281p.pdf here is the actual bill " The Legislature finds and declares that public school pupils should be taught to treat and value each other as individuals and not based on ethnic background. It is only four pages long as a parent of children in our public school system of Arizona I believe that all children should be taught equally there isn't any history that is better then another. The bill states that our schools cannot teach courses primarily for certain ethnic groups. I believe it is fair we have Asians, Blacks, Indians, Middle-Eastern, Filipino, Hispanic, etc who reside in Arizona so if we should teach based on an individual group then all History and backgrounds should be taught. As for our population it is only 30%
The bill does not say that our children cannot learn Mexican heritage my niece is part Mexican our schools cannot teach about just one ethnic group and that I accept. It should be all or nothing our children should be taught about everyone's history not just Hispanic.
I also disagree with the segragation of schools I don't know what district that school is in so I cannot speak on there behalf but our School district Intergrates and a majority of our children take latino studies and have been taught since first grade how to speak Spanish.
My take on segragation is they polled a public school who is predominantly hispanic and did not poll a public school who is a melting pot of multi-cultural children, maybe they should have came to our school district and then determined who takes what.
I apologize for being a thorn in anyone's side but our children speak two languages and we are teaching them to learn more languages.
I just published an article about this topic last night. It's good to see this discussion taking place.
This ban, in my view, is the perpetuation of cultural genocide against minority populations, but particularly against Mexican Americans, especially at a time where hostility against them is beginning to mirror the type of aggression that was witnessed through the 1930's deportation of mostly Mexican American citizens from the U.S..
With this said, I believe that the passage of H.B. 2281 shows more clearly the intent behind S.B. 1070......
Arizona, in my opinion, is slicing its own throat....
How backward thinking is the Arizona legislature? Not only do they go after Mexican Americans, but they have also been pushing for a law that demands President Obama to prove he's an American citizen before they will put him on the Arizona ballot for the 2012 Presidential election....
Put all of these things together and it makes Arizona look like a state filled with "conservative" nut jobs.....
Honestly, a lot of people have misconceptions about what's going in in Arizona, and I am truly compelled to read your article. I suspect I'll need to set you straight, too.
But I understand, the media's running around crazy and cracked out. But that's normal.
He should have to prove it. There is no legitimate evidence to prove he was born in Ha.
you people amaze me.
Your children are being taught that white America is a racist land that has never done anything good in this world. And that all white Americans oppress those of other races.
And you people just say... "yeah okay". I swear the White race is the most nihilistic race in the world. So What! We oppressed some people. BIG DEAL!
The entire world is guilty of oppressing one another at some point in history. SO GET OVER IT.
The united states of America is the most tolerant, accepting, and equal country in the world. the problem is there has been a movement in the country sine the 60s to have a non-white non-english speaking majority in this country. All because white are racists. But it seems to me the racists are the one who have pushed for that policy.
As for as all the hispanics. We have given to them till it hurts. ENOUGH ALREADY! Go Home and make your own country something to be proud of. Then you wont have to be here.
I saw one hispanic teacher, a member of L'Raza (a racist hispanic org. Who has been all over this law and is a big part of why it is was passed. He was on the news shouting hate at America, along with hundreds of other hispanics, and calling for revolution.
But that is okay. They teach junk in those courses and I am glad to toss them in the trash.
Screw all those who don't like us.
I guess I just don't understand. The bill prohibits:
1. studies that are designed for pupils of a particular ethnic group,
2. studies that promote ethnic solidarity instead of treatment of pupils as individuals.
The rest of the bill primarily concerns punishment for violations.
It says nothing about erasing, or not teaching, history. It says nothing about eliminating the study of different ethnic peoples. It says students must all be treated alike without allowing or forcing ethnic groups to be treated differently. What's the problem?
I suppose then they will keep teaching that the Indians and Pilgrims just shook hands too right? lol
The problem is that they don't want the Mexican's to revolt because they learned their history and are passionate about their heritage and their land. (not looking too good considering the new immigration law either)
I grew up in Washington state, part of our curriculum was to learn Washington state history with that we had to learn about the Native Indians because the Natives are indigenous to the land and we (at least I did) grew up respecting the land and the people.
If they changed the study to Arizona State History then they could resolve the issue but instead they would rather just ban the study and besides that why call it an Ethnic Studies ban?
I just cannot agree with the ban no matter how anyone looks at it. There is history to be taught, they should teach it. Anything other than that is oppression.
What I find mostly awkward about the whole thing is that if it was truly about equality and illegal migrations, then they would also target Asians who dominate the state as a whole (Tuscon is dominantly Mexican) but for whatever reason, they are targeting Mexicans.
Why? Because they live next to the border?
But it doesn't ban ethnic studies! It MIGHT ban the detailed study of Mexican history in the lower grades, but that is not a reasonable study for Americans, any more than a detailed study of any other country.
It doesn't mention the study of Arizona history, either. It is not banned or changed. It doesn't ban the study of ethnic groups. Only studies designed specifically FOR (not about) specific ethnic groups. Courses designed for interested students to learn about the history, foods, clothing, religion, etc of ethnic groups is quite acceptable.
And yes, it also targets asians, Indians, Europeans, blacks, and all other ethnic groups.
It appears that you are upset because we won't teach Mexican citizens about Mexico? Perhaps we should build schools in Mexico to teach history to Mexican citizens instead of in America? At least we wouldn't be designing courses specifically for special ethnic groups here.
Well, I believe those are good things to be taught if they choose to learn them. To deny it is wrong. If there was a demand for other cultural studies then they should allow that too. But in Tucson it is not the case.
Again, the stipulation is that the majority of Tuscon is Hispanic. Removing these programs is "like" erasing their culture.
So what happens in 30 years and Tucson is mostly white and they don't teach anything about Mexican culture?
Why in the world would American schools want to teach Mexican culture? At least beyond what we would teach for Australian, Chinese, German, Italian, Nigerian, Japanese, Swedish, Korean, Russian, Irish, Canadian or Bulgarian culture?
I'm sorry - American taxpayers cannot afford to teach in-depth cultural classes to each and every ethnic group represented in this country. Americans as a group do not need this information - they need to know American culture. If an ethnic group wishes to learn about its own history and culture, then let them learn it - many localities will encourage not only the learning but the teaching. The concept behind American freedoms does not include special provisions for any ethnic group, and that is exactly what HB 2281 says. It does NOT say we will not teach a reasonable amount about ethnic culture - it DOES say we won't design classes especially for any particular ethnic group.
"So what happens in 30 years and Tucson is mostly white and they don't teach anything about Mexican culture?"
Neither of those things is going to happen in 30 years or 50, so your emoting is wasted.
See, I believe you are wrong because if this wasn't in the works right now there wouldn't be a need for ethnic studies to begin with.
Get back to me in 30 years and be prepared to admit you were wrong. (what nonsense)
"The problem is that they don't want the Mexican's to revolt because they learned their history and are passionate about their heritage and their land. "
Their land? What land are you talking about? Not the state of Arizona I hope.
Well, it could be the land Cortez took from the Aztecs and their friends through the "kill and conquer" technique.
Or it could be Arizona, California and Texas through the Chinese method of "swarm and assimilate" method.
What you portray sounds reasonable. Certainly, to be equal and fair and all that, it might further break the budget of our school systems to teach ethnic studies for all cultures from which American childen arise. To only provide ethnic studies for one minority group is discriminatory to every other person whose heritage comes from other nations.
College classes are the more appropriate place for specialized studies.
He should also have to prove he is not Muslim
I know there is no law in the Constitution that says it matters, but just for everyone's peace of mind
But that would be hard. Considering he is a Muslim. I don't care that he is, but that he won't be honest about it bothers me. He was honest in that one interview though, his fruedian slip, when he said... "my Muslim faith"... and didn't even know he had stated it.
And hey... what about those socratic prophecies lololol you know socrates was a prophet. hahahah
I could care less what, or if a president has a faith. But if what you say is true, I cannot forgive such blatant lies.
Then again, this is politics.
Typical over-the-top, non-researched hysteria. The fact that we achieved Godwin's Law within four posts of the OP says the rest.
They also want to ensure that Mexican Americans, and Americans in general, remain largely ignorant of crimes perpetrated by the U.S. government towards immigrants, regardless of citizenship status.....
The following painting is from a mural here in the San Fernando Valley entitled the "Great Wall of Los Angeles." As the actions memorialized in this mural depict (this specific segment is the Mexican-American deportations portion of the much larger work) are largely unknown or forgotten by Americans, this mural is also largely unknown....instead of being placed in an open area, widely available for view, it is set below street level along the concrete course of the Los Angeles River.... Like Chicano Studies, only those seeking to find this information/mural will know where to look.....everyone else will simply carry on their lives without any idea that there is a larger story out there....
"They also want to ensure that Mexican Americans, and Americans in general, remain largely ignorant of crimes perpetrated by the U.S. government towards immigrants, regardless of citizenship status....."
A vast conspiracy, right?
The same tired old song and dance over and over...
You should turn your conspiracy-o-meter on the President after his recent graduation speech where he warned that too much information was dangerous for our Democracy.
Didn't one of those cowardly mexican presidents. Who thought he was a general. Sign it away to save his own neck from the noose. We took his leg too. Didn't we? better not teach em that. Oppressing the cripples. Mexican cripples at that.
Whoa we are awful.
What is a "reasonable study for Americans?"
Chicano Studies will cease to be.... If I want to learn about the use of sexual violence by Europeans towards American Indians, as illustrated through Antonia Castaneda's "Sexual Violence in the Politics and Policies of Conquest" what class should I take?
This particular article is history of my current city, region, and state....
Sure, you will learn about the Spanish missions in a typical class....and then you may even be assigned with a project to build a replica of one of the missions....but where will you learn about the treatment of indigenous peoples at the hands of colonizers?
Is this perspective not important?
Again, what standard history course is going to cover the forced deportation of American citizens of Mexican descent in the 1930's?
I know that I never heard of this issue until I took Chicano Studies...
Who is going to share the Anglo-American perpetrated fraud that became the Mexican American War?
Not in an American history course, that's for sure...I've taken many and can vouch fully for my statements...I am, in fact, a graduate of History from UCLA.
As I mentioned in my article that I just published last night on this topic, if this were Turkey, it would be vital for Turkish Armenians to know what has been done to them by the larger Turkish government......
As for German Jews, it is important for them to be able to learn about what their home nation, Germany, did to their ancestors....
I wonder how many people who comment here in this forum have ever taken an ethic studies course.....
I spoke out against them until I started taking them.....I think more people need to start enrolling in them as well....
Operation Wetback is and always will be a part of history. just cause you didn't hear about it. Doesn't mean it isn't taught.
And when you take an auto shop class carburetors will suddenly become the great vital issue that is being suppressed by sinister shadowy forces.
And we'll have to hear about it in every single thread...
Operation Wetback is not taught in typical American history courses. I should know, I have taken many of them, at UCLA and elsewhere.
The treatment of Mexican Americans is not told....the two Bracero Programs preceding Operation Wetback (the programs that build the dependency model that Wetback then tried to curtail) are not discussed ever, outside of Chicano Studies.
Additionally, if you are using Operation Wetback to try to respond to my statement regarding the deportation of Mexican Americans in the 1930's you are sadly mistaken.....for these are two different events.
Thank you for showing two things...
1) Your own lack of knowledge and
2) The almost institutional pattern of discriminatory, hostile, and unconstitutional behavior towards Mexican Americans by Anglo-dominated policies and politics
Perhaps you should take a Chicano Studies course....your American history has failed you.
Your grammar is lacking as well TM.
As a student and teacher I understand well what is and isn't taught.
Funny I learned about it schools I went to. And I didn't say it was the only thing about the early twentieth century in America. So again. Just cause you don't know, doesn't mean it isn't taught.
And if you don't like my grammer don't read my words.
Like I said.
Deport all illegals. You didn't come here legally go home. And cease all anti-American doctrines promoted throughout our schoiols in the name of liberal progressive history.
I stated it before. The whole world has screwed one another at times. So get over it. I don't see any Whites or blacks in the mexican Govt.
Americans cannot own any property in Mexico. go Tell them about the discrimination they practice.
Go to China and tell them they have to put black, white, and spanish people in thier govt. And then tell them they have to teach anti-communist anti-china doctrines in thier schools.
lemme know where that gets you.
Mike, I believe you are correct. I am not really knowledge about history (I've never heard of operation wetback), but American History doesn't seem to be very well taught. I'm not sure how far we should go toward teaching it, though. It is certainly possible that 100% of pre-college learning could be devoted to American history and not cover it all. Should we only cover the bad things? The technological advances? Social events/culture?
In any case, this is not the concern with the Arizona bill noted by the OP. That bill concerns classes designed to be taught only to specific ethnic groups. A year long 10th grade class on the Mexican revolution would probably trigger it - the only students interested would be those with a Mexican background or citizenship.
The classes are not designed to only be taught to a specific group, anyone can take them. It seems like the students are being punished for taking an interest in their culture, heritage and history. Plus it isn't only Latino students who are interested. Again, it justs happens to look this way because the demography is primarily Latino.
Oh, come on, Sandra. If a Tucson high school class is provided to study the political causes of Mexico's war of independence and the student population of the class is 100 latinos and 1 "european American" the odd one out does not mean the class is not aimed at the latinos. Of course it still is, and the fact that 1% of the class that is not ethnically a latino doesn't change that.
And if the school district doesn't have the funds to provide a classroom and teacher to teach one particular ethnic group of their personal culture, heritage and history, it doesn't mean they are mistreated or punished. It means the school system can't be everything to every person. It means America will treat all people the same, not provide funding and classes to provide one special ethnic group education in their personal heritage.
The area I live in has a large number of Basque immigrants. Although some high school classes may mention Basque heritage there are no classes I'm aware of dedicated to teaching it. Instead the Basque community comes together to teach the rest of us about their culture, heritage and history. Food, clothing and history comes to mind as to what they present to the general public in special events, funded by donations and entrance fees. They don't demand that America teach them of their own history; instead they teach America! I don't think they feel punished because the school system doesn't provide classes to them the culture of their grandparents.
Sounds like white washed politicking to me. I think your argument is weak because you said it yourself.
"If a Tucson high school class is provided to study the political causes of Mexico's war of independence and the student population of the class is 100 latinos and 1 "european American" the odd one out does not mean the class is not aimed at the latinos."
I guess it only works out if 100 of them are white and 1 is Latino right? In that case the argument would be that the students are being forced to learn about Latino heritage.
All you are really saying is that it is right and okay to teach the kids about American History but nothing more. Well whatever, you wont see it my way I wont see it yours.
You know, when the kids grow up completely white washed and detached from their own cultural heritage (not even saying they have to wear sombreros or even celebrate Mexican holidays etc..)
and they get to college were they are allowed to take the classes and they find out that they were lied to and oppressed...
Yes, I could see that going over very well. It's like my generation who grew up believing what everyone else said about the Bible and then you read it and feel like you got stabbed in the heart because all the stuff you heard and the stuff you read are not the same.
To be lied to hurts, to be denied the chance to know who you are at an early age even, is oppressive. To be conformed without even knowing it, is like identity theft and to use 'individuality' as the premise for their ban is just deceiving.
I for one, love the diversity. I lived in Az. only for a year but I loved it. My best friend growing up is Mexican, some of my other very best friends are Mexican too.
I love Mexican food, for the most part they enrich a lot of America. They work harder for less, American's complain they take the jobs.
Thus a lot of that is true but to blame them and their heritage on the problems of America is unfair and untrue and by the way America is digressing, it looks to me that America is following in the steps of all the reason other countries fell.
But that is just the typical liberal response to why it is important for ethnic groups to learn not only about their own heritages but also American history as well.
One says, well we cannot go to Mexico and demand they teach American History. Touche'. You are absolutely right, that is what makes America different, right? We allow it because we love diversity and differences... individuality, freedom of expression, freedoms to be who you are, NOT what you want them to be.
I think they are wrong to do this. If they do this, then they would also need to take away black history. Wouldn't want that right?
You mean, if they had taught us about the Jewish suicide bombers, we would've expected it from the muslims? I see your point!
You're absolutely right - we'll have to agree to disagree. I believe the primary purpose of schools is to teach readin', writin' and 'rithmetic. Other subjects are highly desirable, but when limited funding is diverted to teach a minority ethnic group about their personal heritage I believe it crosses the line.
I don't understand you comments about lying to the Latino's, though. If we rely on their own "elders" to teach them about their heritage, how have we lied to them?
I'm also a little foggy about your use of the term "Mexican". I have no Mexican friends (nor from any other country). I have no illegal alien friends. I DO have friends in the Latino community; there is a vast difference in the three. If you are using the three terms interchangeably, then we REALLY have a difference of opinion. Mexicans can only be temporary guests in American. Latinos are Americans, but the vast number of illegal aliens roaming our country need deportation - it is this group that causes the problems, including those that have caused Arizona to take the steps they are.
And finally, black history needs removed from our curriculum. I grew up when there was no black history month, but I remember some of the literature used when my own children were in school. Nowhere did I see any history from any but American, or possibly European areas. As such it should be taught as American history, not as the sop to the black community that it is. I personally find it degrading to indicate that there is so little black contribution to America that we have to legislate that teachers scour history books to find SOMETHING good to say. It's not true. It might be interesting to see what HB2881 has to say about it, though......
"Operation Wetback is not taught in typical American history courses. I should know, I have taken many of them, at UCLA and elsewhere.
As a student and teacher I understand well what is and isn't taught."
Ai-ya~ the self-serving, self-centered, self-important 'stuff' never ends...
I don't know what any of your rant has to do with this thread....I don't even think you know this..
Your poor writing proves your concept that "just 'cause you don't know doesn't mean it isn't taught." Basic writing skills were no doubt taught to you....
It is interesting that you claim to remember being taught about Operation Wetback, but yet you can barely complete a proper sentence....but that is a different issue.
You still do not answer to the fact that your Operation Wetback reference has nothing to do with the 1930's deportations...of American citizens..
Your lack of regard for this issue, vital to all of us Americans, and your ongoing simplified justifications for whatever it is you are supporting (this thread has nothing to do with undocumented immigration) demonstrate that you are both unable to prioritize your logical thinking and that you evidently don't value the concept of individual and group protection from government abuse.
If the deportation of American citizens by the U.S. government doesn't upset, offend, or concern you I think you have missed the idea of what "American" has fundamentally represented over its history...
Then again, having read many of your comments in the past on diverse topics I expected as much from you.
If you want to talk about U.S. History you sorely need to enroll in a class for yourself... Perhaps then you could differentiate the 1930's from the 1950's.
You make all the personal attacks you want man. Doesn't prove anything. Things are taught all around this country in our schools to degrade this country. And I bet you dont know half of what they are.
So go do whatever it is you do...
There are more improtant things to be taught then focusing on solely the ills caused by America. If you don't think so, thats your problem. Not mine.
So go sit in another class somewhere and learn something else to impress yourself with. And remember. Just because you learn something in a class in a school, doesn't make it fact. Liberal leftist scholorship has polluted American history in it's efforts to make us the global bad guy. Academia is full of leftist American haters. Who piss themselves with glee in teaching all they can about how racist and ugly our country is and has been. And simply put... most of us are sick of it.
So piss off with your schooling.
You're so right! It's hard to read so many people posting that we should be sure to teach how evil Americans are and always were, how badly these other people were treated, not just teach it even but FOCUS on it. I learned these things in school (MD) but not just the anti-American side, my kids learned these things in UT schools.
"Your poor writing proves your concept that "just 'cause you don't know doesn't mean it isn't taught." Basic writing skills were no doubt taught to you....
It is interesting that you claim to remember being taught about Operation Wetback, but yet you can barely complete a proper sentence....but that is a different issue."
Then why do you keep bringing it up?
I don't think so. It is all a matter of how things are taught. We could have a class that is very holistic, yet concise.
With this said, it is wrong to assume that ethnic studies only emphasize the negative connotation of social/economic/political crossover....
Both negative and positive things come out of these meeting points, for as much as Anglo-Americans have sought to demonize Mexican-Americans as degenerates, criminals, lazy bums, and build up the perception of them as foreignors within their own nation people like myself, who is not at all Mexican, and others of diverse backgrounds can transcend the cultural, social, and political lies that work to keep us divided.
As an Armenian American, through learning both of my own background and of Mexican American history I see how both of our populations are more closely related and entwined than ever before.
And as competition and hostility increase between Armenian and Mexican Americans here in Los Angeles, for example, such connections can be used to change the overall culture....to bring seemingly different people together in mutual understanding.
Armenians and Mexicans share in the legacy of being treated as outsiders on their own native soil....they have both suffered at the predatory hands of hostile national neighbors...
As the Armenian nation fell to the armies of the Turkish nationalist state (the current Turkey), resulting in the loss of most of their national lands and in the deportation of over a million people in the 1920's, Mexicans were forced to give up their land and sovereignty to the Americans, whose armies encircled the Mexican capital.....much as the Turkish armies surrounded Yerevan...
"Sign the treaty or die"
Armenians and Mexicans (not to leave out American Indians and others) know that line well.....
But such connectivity is nowhere found in the common history class...I tutor in history all the time...and I am familiar with many of the current textbooks in use... I am also, as stated before, a history major...and have taken many history classes.....
It was only through Armenian and Chicano Studies that these ideas, these connections, were made.....
Oh pity us the victims....
Man. That is the BS I am talking about.
The mexicans have been giving as good as they got for the entire time. Unfortunately in conflicts you have a victor. And it takes time for feelings to quell. Yes, they have had their share of bad treatment here. Nothing I might add compared to what Islam did to the Armenians, but it has happened.
But to perpetuate that hate by specifically teaching mexican kids that they live in a country that has always, and will always, hate them. Is not the answer.
And as for my comments touching on illegal immigration also. I am not the only one to touch on it. I have read posts above where they have invoked the immigration law and arizona. So I will allow my thoughts to wander where they may.
You don't wanna read it, don't.
And what do you mean Armenian American? if you don't mind. Where you born here or immigrate? And if you were born here why would you hyphenate yourself?
And are you trying to equate America to Islamic domination?
Wow, he really did manage to shoehorn pet topic #2 into this thread. Now we just need a 'Workers of the World Unite!' rant about unions and he'll have the hat trick!
Thanks for living up to your hype Mason.
You never disappoint.
"Piss off with your schooling."<---the response of an educated mind.
Arizona is cleaning house. And it's long overdue. Illegal immigration is breaking the bank in Arizona. Ethnic studies -- directed at a specific grouping of people -- is extremely one-sided and, as liberals would say, is racist.
Obama has now spent over one million dollars to prevent certain information like his school transcripts and valid birth certificate to be made public. Hawaii recently banned any further enquiries into this. Why? And don't say it isn't the public's business. He shouldn't be on the ballot in 2012.
Keep in mind that America is supposed to be a melting pot. So let's get back to controlled immigration, allow legal immigrants of all nationalities, and keep our emotions in check.
In one of the ethnic studies courses I took while getting my undergraduate degree, we examined U.S. textbook accounts of the Mexican American War as they appeared at various points in time since. We looked at four or five, as I recall, spaced about 30 years apart each time. It was interesting to see the early editions describing the triumph of bravery and strength by a great and ambitious nation gradually transform to the more recent editions that describe a villainous land grab perpetrated by racist power-mongers.
People actually tried to argue that one version was more accurate than the other.
I am just tired of all others crying about how we did this and that. As if they have not done the same things.
This has little to go with the topic.
I know little about ecconomics except for how little of it is in my band account.
What was I going to say before I became so depressed?? OH yea
I think (but could be wrong) that most of the wetbacks that are coming over the border are in all reality simply War refugees that crossed the mexican border 130 years ago to excape genocide that was being perpetuated by Americans that were expanding our borders.
Being war refugees they were never accepted by the social elete in Mexico.
In all probability they are more American than most of us.
With all of that said, do I like it when they are taking so many Jobs that I lould like to have? He-l No I don't.
Where is General Custer when we need him?
Be as PC as you want.
I have taught in schools all over the country.
The truth is that many of these kids cannot handle the basics let alone classes like this one.
We teach American History and World Cultures in our schools. Somewhere in there they learn all about the history of our country which did NOT begin until 1776 officially.
The fact is, if you were BORN in America you are an American and hyphenating just causes more problems.
Still, what can you expect from people who do not even LIVE here in America?
What do they know about our real day-to-day problems?
I am so tired of Americans apologizing and feeling guilty because their ancestors were good sales negotiators and good conquerors.
Americans don't need to apologize for that!
Of course Sab....I forgot how selfless and oriented towards the betterment of others you are...
Your words directed towards me, however, only demonstrate your own inner self in projection.
I guess if learning about government abuse of power such the like has not been seen in our lifetimes isn't important, what is?
When was the last time, that you can recall, that the U.S. government deported American citizens...who had committed no crimes?
I only mention this because I have been reading many opinions in newspapers and elsewhere where people are using this past example as a precedent to do it again....
Of course, because they weren't taught in school what actually happened these poor minds believe that everyone deported was undocumented.
If only they had taken better history courses....
Way to go justifying the undermining of the constitution Sab...you win the golden star of freedom!
...do you hear that distant bell?
Same old song and dance. You just finished reading part of a book and now you're going to shoehorn this topic into every thread possible until you go read another one and add to the list of topics to repeat endlessly regardless of whether they are relevant to the discussion. Yes, we all understand by now how very, very pleased you are with yourself but you need to focus a little better.
"I forgot how selfless and oriented towards the betterment of others you are..."
Well I haven't forgotten how self-centered and oriented towards your own ego you are.
Stick to the topic.
It's not really possible in our secondary schools to provide indepth coverage of the history of our country, much less anyone else's. What is important is that the time allowed is spent giving the best available capsulized history of individual states and of course the USA. Unfortunately, history as presented in school texts is becoming increasingly skewed by politics, that in itself is not a new event for any country or culture. But, what would be a new event, would be a country not making its own history collectively the single most important 'history' class taught in our secondary schools.
What follows is an excerpt from an authentic history book, not a politicized one, and it is interesting to note that both Mexicans and Americans fought against the Spanish royalists, and were side by side slaughtered. It is sad that in the general public view, as evidenced here in this forum and elsewhere, there is this growing sense that the Mexicans are the rightful owners of Texas and Arizona, etc... Tell that to those that died to protect their claim, both Americans and Mexicans, who soon had the proud claim of Texan.
"The next general sent to capture the city was Arredondo, commander of the eastern internal provinces at Monterey. The new commander with his army of about four thousand men halted on the Medina river southwest of the city and threw up fortifications. He arranged them in the shape of a horizontal V, with the open end towards the city. To meet this force Perry had about three hundred Americans and Toledo and Manchaca about six hundred Mexicans.
On the march to the battle field Perry, according to McLean, was joined by his old commander, Kemper, in company with Judge Bullock, and six or eight other Americans. The battle was fought August 18th. The Republicans were rushing forward with great impetuosity when Toledo saw that they were entering into the trap set by Arredondo, and ordered a halt.
The men, not understanding the reason for the order, continued to press on. They displayed a heroic courage and would probably have won the day, but in the midst of the fight Musquis, one of the captains in their ranks, deserted with his whole company to the enemy. Thus deserted and betrayed these brave men were finally thrown into disorder and compelled to retreat.
The retreat soon became a rout. The fugitives fled towards the Sabine and were hotly pursued by their relentless foes. The pursuing party was cavalry under the command of Elisondo, still chafing under his recent defeat. All who fell into his hands were incontinently butchered.
Seventy or eighty of these unfortunate men were overtaken at the Spanish Bluff on the Trinity River. They were marched to an island of timber at the junction of the San Antonio and La Bahia roads, where a deep trench was dug for a grave, across which a piece of timber was placed.
After tying the prisoners ten at a time, they were placed on this piece of timber and shot, their bodies falling into the trench. Among the victims of this butchery were Colonel Manchaca and Captain Antonio Delgado. Two days after the battle says Mr Yoakum, Gen Arredondo having his wagon loaded with wounded and dying, marched in triumph into San Antonio.
Here commenced a scene of barbarity which that place had never before witnessed. Seven hundred of the peaceable citizens were seized and imprisoned. Three hundred of them were confined during the night of the 20th of August in one house, and during the night eighteen of them died of suffocation.
From day to day others were shot without any form of trial. The cruelty of the Spanish commander went even further. He had a prison for females. It was tauntingly called the Quinta.
Here were imprisoned five hundred of the wives, daughters and other female relatives of the patriots, and for being such they were compelled daily to convert twenty four bushels of Indian corn into the Mexican cakes called tortillas for Arredondo's army.
After thus having satisfied his appetite for blood and revenge, the Royalist commander found an opportunity about the 1st of September to collect and bury the bones of Salcedo and his staff. By this time Elisondo had returned from the Trinity, driving before him on foot the widows and orphans of those he had there slain."
We DEPORT ILLEGALS mike. You people just cannot seperate fact from fiction. The arizona law does not deport legal citizens. Man.Can't you get that part right at least.
You just skip past that fact, and go right to the BS. The Arizona law helps to identify and deport illegals. Not Legal citizens.
Do I have to say it again?
Go read the law.
Well at least this thread has separated the racists from the human beings.
The mis-teaching of history is part of a 'burning the books' phenomenon and generally signals the decline of a culture.
By that token all Earthy cultures are on a permanent decline
Well, may be it's true
I guess the Library of Alexandria was the first and Nazi Germany not the last. And mis-information does a similar job in a digital world, Creationists and their ridiculous Intelligent Design are top of this list, that some States are right up there with them is no surprise.
And which racists have you identified so far, waigouren?
If my parents moved to France and put me in a French school system.
If they do not teach me about my American heratige and I grow up knowing nothing of my heratige. that is not the fault of the French government. That would be the fault of my parents for moving me away from my country and theirs for not teaching it to me.
But in France, like almost every country, they do teach History of America, and every other country.
But what do they teach? 1492, 1776, George Washington, Abraham Lincoln and that's about it? 'Course I don't even remember learning that much about any other country.
But in addition, there is a lot more to culture and heritage than bare bones history.
Jarami is right - it is not the job of your adopted country to teach the history, culture and heritage of the country you left behind. That job belongs to parents, grandparents, friends, etc.
There I went sticking my foot in it.
Are these full semester classes we are speaking of both in Arizona and france? the length and intensity of the classes would have a lot to do with swaying my opinion one way or the other.
So we're racists cause we won't teach Mexican history in American schools, (I'm sure I can learn American history in mexican schools though.), and we don't want illegals in our country.
Great. Count me in.
Most countries get more US history than the US learns the history of other countries.
Considering the whole one world government thing and stuff. They'll all get to learn about thier over-lords, and why they should fear us.
I like it.
Yup, God forbid you would open up your children's minds to other cultures...
No one is argueing exposing children to other cultures. We are saying race specific classes, to teach histories of oppression by the united states, is absurd.
It is a fairly simple concept.
Yes, yes of course. Cover it up, cover it all up.
Just get a good laugh while the children of the oppressed and murdered folks dance on their graves praising the very land that forsake them.
Makes perfect sense. Thank you. What nerve, telling the truth. ha ha ha.
Which part's opperssive? The Mexicans beat the french, then we beat them, then paid $10 million for the southern halves of Arizona and New Mexico? That the oppressive part?
Is that a tid bit you picked off wiki? lol
And they would learn this by...
Yes. I agree. We should cover it up. Thank you, Sandy. It is about time you came around.
You people go from one extreme to the other.
Just some of the bills disciplinary actions. Sec. 2. Section 15-843, Arizona Revised Statutes, is amended to read:
15-843. Pupil disciplinary proceedings
B. The governing board of any school district, in consultation with the teachers and parents of the school district, shall prescribe rules for the discipline, suspension and expulsion of pupils. The rules shall be consistent with the constitutional rights of pupils and shall include at least the following:
1. Penalties for excessive pupil absenteeism pursuant to section 15‑803, including failure in a subject, failure to pass a grade, suspension or expulsion.
2. Procedures for the use of corporal punishment if allowed by the governing board.
3. Procedures for the reasonable use of physical force by certificated or classified personnel in self‑defense, defense of others and defense of property.
4. Procedures for dealing with pupils who have committed or who are believed to have committed a crime.
Well here, just read it. http://www.azleg.gov/FormatDocument.asp … b2281h.htm
They make it sound like the Latinos are rioting in the schools. lol
Sandra, why are you so hard on the Latinos? Every school in the country has, or should have;
1. penalties for failure to pass, absenteeism, etc.
2. procedures and rules for spanking, if allowed at all.
3. Procedures for use of force
4. procedures for criminal activities
In reference to #3 and #4 - most schools have a SRO (read policeman) on duty. The last school I helped build had a complete school lockdown system, initiated from the front office.
These things are not due to Latinos running amok, but to unfortunately common occurences in our schools.
This bill has been in the making for a long time due to the recent illegal immigration law that was just passed, people are really blowing things out of proportion I don't see anything noting Latinos in our state with HB2811.
Have you not seen the way they are acting on TV? What conclusion should I draw from thier own action?
You mean the politicians? Well from what I can tell, they are sleeping with numerous people, cheating on their wives, sleeping with gay hookers.
They are ripping people off, making people act like haterators, causing mass fear and yes, hysteria from nothing. They are provoking minority groups to stand up for themselves.
They are ripping families apart, denying kids the right to a good and decent education all while comfortably and pathetically blaming it on illegal immigration, the housing industry, the market crash, the outsourcing of jobs, the failure of the teachers to teach the students, the failure of the students to want to learn.
The failure of the parents to parent and the failure of the parents to get good jobs. They are blaming it on womens lib. black people, Mexicans, terrorist, Muslims, china, America not producing any good, being consumers not producers...
The funniest part of all is that in this crafty bill, it states that "A. A SCHOOL DISTRICT OR CHARTER SCHOOL IN THIS STATE SHALL NOT INCLUDE IN ITS PROGRAM OF INSTRUCTION ANY COURSES OR CLASSES THAT:
1. PROMOTE THE OVERTHROW OF THE UNITED STATES GOVERNMENT."
So they should definitely not learn about American History or the Constitution, Declaration of Independence or The Bill of Rights because it does promote the 'overthrow of the US government" in the event of tyranny.
Because this, as far as I can tell is causing more angst in the world then cultural studies.
I think there was some sarcasm that DevLin missed here....perhaps..
With this said,
Mason, while you claim the U.S. only "kicks out" illegals, there are so many cases of this government removing actual citizens that it muddles the whole issue.
During the L.A. Riots in 1992 illegal, unconstitutional deportations of American citizens occurred again.
Under the orders of the Bush Sr. White House, the same strike force that snatched up Manuel Noriega in Panama came to Los Angeles...while the media emphasized "black rage" these federal agents were rounding up people they found on the street and deporting them.....no investigations..just a quick pass over the border...
And of course, they deported American citizens, including a teenager who was autistic.... No questions, no search...just a skin color and in the wrong place at the wrong time...over the border you go...
This is not the case of "making America look bad"...it is simply a case of America looking bad on its own.....
Again, learn the actual history....from the Gentlemen's Agreement and Exclusion Acts to the Bracero Programs, the 1930's deportations leading up to the 1992 deportations....there is a steady flow of anti-immigrant (legal or otherwise)/anti-Mexican (specifically) ideology that was concocted, erected, and perpetuated....
Denial of this is denial of American history....
Anglo-American minimalization of anti-Mexican/xenophobic ideations are akin to Germans trying to pass the Holocaust off as a small side story to the larger World War....
Yeah, sorry. I guess I did miss something. I don't discount what they've done in the past, and they've gotten it wrong for a long time.
i first heard about this, I thought they'd lost their minds. Now, I know they have. They were trying to curb Raza studies, but didn't want to just single it out, so attacked all of them.
What I've learned about the american-mexican war, and the purchase of 1853, I'm still at a loss as to why they say this still belongs to Mexico, and should be given back. All american history should have the truth, good or bad, and include all nationalities that made america what it is.
As I have said earlier....the actions of the United States during the Mexican American War are akin to the acts of the current Turkey towards the post 1915 Armenian government...
In both cases, after devastating the population (Armenian or Mexican), the armies of the aggressing state surrounded the national capitals and put forward an ultimatum.....surrender, sign a treaty handing over territory or we destroy you completely....
As an Armenian I will always look towards this nation of Turkey as if they are nothin more than a criminal state...for it took criminal acts to create and maintain it, on the backs of dead Armenians, Kurds, Greeks, Christians, Jews, Shiites, Sufi's....
The United States has behaved, and continues in many ways, in similar ways... It is actually the acts by the U.S. throughout its history (prior to and since the Armenian Genocide and atrocities wrought at the hands of Turkey) that keep this nation from calling Turkey out as a perpetrator of Genocide.....
The pot calling the kettle black?
It doesn't help that the United States played a significant role in the internal affairs of the Ottoman Empire and larger population, especially the Armenians..... The Genocide of 1915 is also on American hands....
Come forward and prove otherwise....
I doubt you even understood half of what I said without having to rnn to wikipedia....
Interesting, my guess is that your intent is to distract with hyperbole and generalizations, and you would like it if someone went to Wiki in an effort to respond to your very pointed accusations -- but that person is not me. If you wish to support your points, you should enlighten all Americans with references supporting your accusations and hypothesis -- and surely write your own American history book -- we wil all await an autographed copy.
As I said, bunk and shameful.
You said bunk and shameful a couple of times - Mike posted up a slice of information with his opinion on it - is there any chance of you answering any of the point without wasting forum space in blabbering ?
I haven't noticed Mike commenting on any information I've posted prior, let's let the long guy do that, as well as give us references to his accusations that validate America in his view as a really foul place to be.... As I said in reference to his comments, now for the 3rd time, bunk and shameful, and it is for Mike to provide evidence otherwise, and full context, a real problem for most who wish to twist America into the bad guy of history.
Let us all see his brilliance, above and beyond that of any historian who has ever laid a pen to paper.
I won't respond again, it is clear now this ploy of baiting in the forums, the whole get in the last word childishness, and I won't take the bait. My opinion stands. You support your own accusations, and/or those of your bud if you wish them to be seen as valid. Your readers will await those Q&D wiki links.
Just more blabber - you could have used that space to answer the post.
Mike has drawn a parallel between the treatment of Mexicans and Armenians - looks clear cut to me, powers using racism and genocide to mask the problems they themselves have caused.
Clear cut, most words are, but are they supportable? Are they correct because Mike says so? And if all the accusations against America here on hubpages are to be considered accurate/honest/innocent until proven wrong/dishonest/guilty -- then you guys should just take up crocheting or something, or provide explicit links or references that support your accusations.
In my previous comment I was not in any way responding to any of your comments, which I have not read.
The fact that I mentioned Mason's name specifically should demonstrate this.
I have not used hyperbole...I have used facts.. I have illustrated, through my own comments and several responses from others, that the traditional way of teaching history in the United States is at best incomplete and at worse, intentionally biased.
Mason couldn't tell the 1930's deportations from Operation Wetback, everyone here has avoided any reference to the two Bracero Programs, and I have yet to see anyone bring up the deportations during the 1992 Los Angeles Riots...
Is this not an indicator of incomplete education?
I think so...
Again...I have not twisted anything....the evidence is all around....but, often like the mural I posted earlier..the truth is kept just out of plain sight.
Unless I see you actually respond to something that I now direct at you I will simply pass you off as another waste of time.
Again, my earlier posts were not to you, hence I did not speak about you...but now I am directed at you...and I have said my peace....do you have an actual response or just useless retorts?
I just love how people just jump in here with little smart remarks when they know nothing of working in American school systems and/or living where illegal aliens are a major problem.
These people should really just be ignored.
No. it is not.
It is an indicator, that like most leant leftist. You would throw up any lil thing as racist America showing it's colors again. Be it real or confabulated. Listening to you is like listening to MSNBC.
If your so dis-satisfied with the US.... go to Turkey and change thier country for the, "better".
You spend your years in college and get spoonfed liberal white washed histories and then spout them back. Congratulations... you pass. Want a diploma?
Do you not know that there is a movement in this country right now to take back the universities and colleges from the left.
And your an example of the reason why.
This guy Mason doesn't seem to use the English language very well, and he uses very threatening language quite often...I think I want to see his papers.
One type-o and you're all over TMMason, tisk-tisk!
There is a lot of information around on the history of the USA. Attempts to subvert it, change it or ignore it is a dangerous game.
"This guy Mason doesn't seem to use the English language very well"
You said before that was a separate issue, but you've kept on harping on it. Why is that?
KFlippin....they are absolutely supportable.....and it doesn't take very long on this internet to find out if you really wanted to.
I think it's funny some of you are still talking sh*t about America (without any proof in some cases) but ignoring the fact that we cannot afford all the extras in schools today and that kids are not able to learn the basics!
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