Religious people often think the teaching of evolution should be banned, and vice-versa for non-religious people. What id your opinion? Should evolution, creationism, or neither be taught? Why?
As you say, evolution should be taught with other sciences, while creationism can be taught along with other religious myths.
The problem is that some religions are acknowledged as myths by everyone while others are not. In fact, some religions that contain strong beliefs in creationism rule the thinking of millions of people today. They wouldn't take to kindly to having their strong religious beliefs categorized alongside other "superstitions and myths" that everyone agrees and acknowledges.
This places the education system in an awkward position having to try and placate both sides of the argument, with no solution readily available that will satisfy both.
This is not something that happens on a frequent basis, but I am in complete agreement with Beelzedad on this one. I think that both should be taught under separate categories. Perhaps the compromise can be made to teach creationism under something like Religion/Philosophy/Mythology (rather than simply mythology), and teaching evolution under Science.
Teaching both allows for a more well-rounded education, and allows the child to critically think his/her own way into what path he/she chooses to follow.
I say keep the apples with the apples and the oranges with the oranges.
It's like oil and water, or Church and state,they don't mix.
Truth should be taught. In this case both sides of the issue should be taught along with all the opposing views to both sides.
Teaching one side only (irrespective of which one) is tantamount to indoctrination!
The debate over the issues of life, fossils, origins etc is (STILL) vehemently debated. For this very reason the "facts" should be presented to the students, along with the two possible explanations that exist already in society, and let the students draw their own conclusions.
And please, don't insult anyones intelligence by saying it's "all a fact" one way or the other. As long as it is debated, there is NO resolution. If there were, then the debate would cease.
By way of example, if politics were being taught, but only the "Democratic" version was presented, wouldn't that be unacceptable? Shouldn't opposing ideologies be presented?
I, for one was taught evolution in school. No creationism at all at the time, and later in life, did my own investigation, and came up with the opposite explanation as being more satisfying, (for me). I was NOT religious, at all, during my school years.
Sorry, but there are no facts for creationism that can be presented to students. All you have is a bible and a variety of other scriptures with their versions of creationism.
Again you miss my main point (not unusual).
If evolution were a PROVEN FACT, the debate would cease!
To use topgunjagers example (above), the stork fairy tale is PROVEN to be so, and treated likewise.
The same cannot be said about evolution (as a whole), least of all origins of life.
So, ONLY evolution does.
So why is there so much opposition to new discoveries that don't fit the accepted model?
(as described in the two videos I posted links to).
The changes desired in the school were not "religion" motivated, but outdated information no longer relevant.
The only debate is from believers like yourself who have no clue about evolution.
Proponents of ID don't necessarily use scripture to support anything.
Mere observation of things produces explanation possibilities contrary to evolution.
IE, the reality of what is, doesn't agree with an evolutionary explanation.
they don't say god did it on purpose. That's where the flying spagetti monster comes from
Please don't bury your head in the sand.
Not every single scientist who questions the validity of evolutions claims is a religionist.
Why protect the Darwinian theory in the face of obvious contradictory results? Don't people have the right, (or the guts) to express doubts or contradictions? It would make you more hardened to your "beliefs" than us.
After all, anything worth testing ought to stand up to scrutiny. If it doesn't match the expected results, say so. Don't force it into a mould it never will fit!
In the, now famous words of Mr Mark Knowles, "Dear me"!
I'd been indoctrinated with creationism, been fed ID and studied evolution. Sad thing is ,the IDists create so many lies about evolution - it's clear you don't even understand the basics.
That really answered me.
Typical evasive responses. Just like I have been getting for nearly three years.
It seems it's not just (ID proponents an religionists) that regurgitate things.
I doubt my arguments will change the world, but one thing I will say, with total convictions is, "time will tell". Time will tell all!
Aka even the Simpsons are ahead of you on Darwin.
I'm glad to hear it.
Not bad for two dimensional caricatures.
Oh, hold on, they're not real. There must be someone behind them!
Oh I know, Evolutionists!
I'm cleverer than I thought. I figured that out all by myself!
So, you have no clue what ID is saying AND what evolution is saying?
I would be okay with Creation stories in the classroom being made mandatory alongside evolution IF PhD Evolutionary biologists are also required to speak about the evidence for Evolution in Church services.
All joking aside this is ridiculous, first off its a direct violation of the first amendment UNLESS you teach every single creation story (there are hundreds if not thousands).
Secondly we can't be replacing solid scientific theories based on fossils, genetics, behavioral studies, anatomy and morphology with a supernatural explanation. Shall we also teach that lightning is created by the gods?
Thirdly what evidence do Creationists bring to the table other than complaints that Evolution is wrong because it conflicts with their particular religious text? They propose that a supernatural being forming creatures using magic (an event for which they have no evidence) is more plausible than genetic variation over time (Evolution, which we have mountains of evidence for).
How about the simplest argument of all.
Slime-to-grass-to-plants-to-trees, by the millions in variation. Feasible? Yea, right!
Virus/bacteria-to-amoeba(like organism-to-invertebrate-to-vertebrate-to-everything from tiny rodents to massive mammals, ad then-to-mankind. Feasible? Yeah, right! Everything on the planet moves towards simplicity, NOT complexity.
Oh, except in Evolution, of course!
Then there is the "fact" that not one fossil has ever been put forth as evidence fo all the failed attempts that the E process got "wrong"! It seems that at every possible stage in the progression "she" got it perfectly right!
Don't we see a constant disappearance of species (extinction)?
Why isn't E creating new species all around us? Oh, "she" went on extended leave! Of course!
Why isn't evolution creating new species all around us? Because every NEW species is just a NEWER form of an older species. We human beings didn't just show up as human beings, we evolved from earlier hominids. Evolution IS "creating" new species, with every generation our species deviates with the distant ancestors who migrated out from Africa. With something as slow to reproduce and as short-lived as humans we cannot observe our own species become something else in real time, however experiments done with species of fruit flies (which reproduce quicker) have confirmed speciation (the emergence of new species).
And yes, given the billions of years timescales involved in Evolution it is perfectly feasible, we have a good record of how it worked (fossil record) although it is incomplete it gives us snapshot views of how life developed throughout time. What we see is single-cells at the lowest strata and more "complex" (might be the wrong word to use) lifeforms at the higher levels.
And no everything does not move toward "simplicity". What you're doing is using a corrupted version of the 2nd Law of Thermodynamics, namely that all closed/isolated systems move toward entropy/chaos and away from order/complexity but that only works with CLOSED systems. Earth receives new energy from the sun facilitating complex chemical reactions that allow life to exist.
The sun does not add information to DNA!
Besides, the sun is a part of the closed system, not outside of it.
You answered nothing of value here.
The sun does not add new information to DNA, mutations do. The chemical reactions necessary for life to thrive are reliant upon solar energy (except for, perhaps, the lifeforms living near hydrothermal vents).
The sun itself is the source of energy that makes Earth an open system, it doesn't matter if the sun isn't receiving "new" energy of its own, it is putting out energy. It is well known that the sun will eventually run out of material to perform fusion and die out, so the sun IS a closed system heading for entropy, however this isn't likely to happen for another 3-5 billion years.
Seriously these are basic scientific facts, I'm not sure what your problem is.
"The sun does not add new information to DNA, mutations do."
Where is there an example of this?
Information is always lost, not gained!
The original is always dominant.
The mutant is always recessive! (loss).
What's my problem?
The dishonesty with the evidence, That's all.
Feel free to do some research for yourself, but there's a good starter video ^
mutations are not always destructive - that's another lie from ID politics
no, everything does not move towards simplicity. A baby developing from a few cells is an example of that
"A baby developing from a few cells is an example of that"
No it's not! Wrong kind of example.
There is no information added. It's already preprogrammed into its DNA.
My progression was from "slime-to-" well, I won't type it all again. There's is NO EVIDENCE of how information (can) be added. It's all hypothesis. Mere conjecture, to try and support a weak argument.
What's your answer for the loss of species?
What's your response to "failed mutations" being absent?
How DID Mother Evolution manage to get virtually 1005 accuracy in transitioning from one to another, without loss? (Try and deal 4 aces every hand, and see how you go!)
Species go extinct, it happens. If you seriously think that nothing has ever gone extinct before now than you are hopelessly uninformed. Here's a tip: Go do some research for yourself instead of demanding that people explain things to you and then dismissing their responses with arguments from incredulity.
Go back and read my previous posts, before you jump in.
Your answer does not reflect on what I actually said!
"How DID Mother Evolution manage to get virtually 1005 accuracy in transitioning from one to another, without loss?"
From that I inferred that you mean that Evolution never failed (ie nothing ever went extinct). That might not be what you meant but regardless Evolution has hit a great many dead-ends, 99% of species that ever lived are now extinct. Obviously whatever managed to survive would pass on its genes, each time you pass on genes the next generation is a bit different, these variations accumulate over massive amounts of time until you get a new species.
As for the reason WHY species are going extinct now humans and our appetite for natural resources have a lot to do with it. In no way, however, are extinction events somehow new, they are quite common in Earth's history. There are both "explosions" of bio-diversity and reductions of it in the fossil record.
there's massive loss in evolution - most species go extinct.
As for pre-programmed in DNA - you obviously don't realise that rice and the amoeba have a much bigger genome than humans, yet they are 'less complex'
Man is evolved in millions of years; so it is good that the children learn this and praise the Creator-God.
Adam was a sign of the era when the Creator-God sent his Word for guidance of the humans; let the children learn it also.
In what class?
In science class, evolution.
In philosophy class, or comparative religion, creationism can and probably should be examined.
this was not an issue 20 years ago and things worked out okay then. i believe that evolution was taught. if you want to teach your children religion, i honestly believe it should be taught at home.
the reason i believe it should be taught at home is because i would like to be the one to teach my children and explain it in my own words.
if you want to teach your children any religious matters, let it be done in the home.
If you are speaking of American schools we should stick with evolution in public schools. Creationism is church doctrine. Separation of church and state applies.
Private schools should be free to make their own decisions as to what to teach on the subject.
I agree. Religion should be left for your own house or for religiously-inclined private schools. Evolution has literally been proven, and should be taught as it is a prominent part of science and biology- not because the teachers are trying to get their students to believe it. Non religious students should have the right to learn WHY they aren't religious.
I disagree strongly. Very very strongly. Evolutionary theory is fact. Creationism is not.
Only facts should be taught in schools.
That's actually what we are saying... evolution is fact, and therefore should be taught in appropriate classes, like biology. Religon is not technically fact, and it should be left to the individual families to decide their opinion on it.
I think it should be up to the child since religious parents often (not always) force their religion upon their child and refuse to let teachers teach them anything that they deem to be anti-religion.
I went to a catholic school. I remember my science teacher asking me if I wanted to learn about evolution (she was not catholic, she must've lied on her cv to get the job) and I said yes. She looked a little disappointed that I wanted to learn about it, she wanted to teach it, but she wasn't allowed to.
I should've had that choice not anyone else.
Sorry. If someone pays good money to send their kid to a private school and they want a course in sponge bob economics taught, it's between them and the private school. Would I pay to have my kid's head filled with foolishness? Nope. But it's a free country.
See my previous post. Its about what the kid wants. Not the parent.
I stand by my point. Since when did kids support themselves? You want to learn whatever you want at 12? Pay for your own education.
Good luck finding a parent who says ok to what a kid decides are the courses they'll take. Or get them to pay for Motessouri and then you both win.
Noone chooses courses at school. Courses are for college or uni. School is government funded and private schools should not teach what the parent wants. What if the parent wants them to spend 6 years studying Sooty and sweep? You think thats ok because the parent pays for it?
Think about the child. I knew what I wanted to learn at that age and so do most kids.
I'm not saying some kids don't have odd parents, or that I wouldn't make different decisions from other people. But it's a slippery slope when you start thinking some people know better than others what is best for themselves or their own family.
And I don't know where you live, but elective courses start pretty young here and there are at least two different programs for the kids, so their mandatory courses are not the same for all programs in the public schools.
As to private schools; if they receive no government funds there are no standard of learning tests. They can teach whatever the heck they choose. Which does not mean they will graduate anyone with a high school diploma if it isn't an accredited school. But, again, if that is what a person chooses for their child I couldn't stop them even if I wanted to. It is their right under the law.
And that is what I disagree with. They should not have that right.
Start a country. Declare yourself king. Or a god..your choice. But as long as this is a free country what you think is right on this issue is within your right, for you alone. And that's a fact.
Maybe the problem lies with bad parents forcing their nonsense on their kids.
But my idea that only facts should be taught in schools is a valid one that should be adressed. I think it is a key topic in many western countries right now.
Maybe america is lagging behind somewhat?
Sue us. Freedom of thought is pretty big in this country. We've had plenty of people try to shove their idea of what is right around. We've grown very litigious in support of our freedoms; because we take them quite seriously. We like diversity.
So you dont think only facts should be taught in schools? You think it is ok for kids of 11 years old to be taught that there is a teapot floating around mars and that whales can speak spanish?
You think it is a good thing that fundamentalist muslims can send their kids to mosques that teach them it is good to be a suicide bomber? You think that "freedom of thought" implies that any nonsense can be taught in any school?
You can think whatever you want. That has nothing to do with what is taught in schools.
I don't like the thought of that anymore than you do. But if you start shoving opinions around with legislation it gets sticky. Freedom is freedom is freedom. You can't work around that fact with 'knowing what's best for other people'.
You have to give others the benefit of the doubt to know what is best for them. Whether you agee with them or not.
Teaching FACTS has nothing to do with opinions. Teaching religion is paramount to forcing opinions on kids.
Arghh. I wholeheartedly agree. But that's my opinion. I share it quite frequently, but I don't have the authority to force others to take it as gospel. They have the right to make their own decisions as to what is right.
If it makes you feel any better, I think I was responsible for the dismantling of one little church school here in my community before it got off the ground good. One of the 'teachers' asked me to explain some things to her so she'd understand them enough to teach the kids. I spent the entire time explaining to her how ill equipped she was for the task. That 'school' closed shortly thereafter and the kids were sent to public schools.
So, communication made a difference. I didn't belittle her, I gently pointed out the obvious. People can be taught, you simply have to help them see the logic of your point, not force it on them.
I agree of course. I just think that when it comes to kids, we cant take chances on the parents.
Heck, pedofilia being wrong is just an opinion. Is that an opinion we should not force on parents?
I think there are circumstances where we need to establish a standard and what we teach in schools should be one of those since kids can easily be brainwashed, and that is very harmful.
That's a silly argument. Pedophilia is illegal.
The world would be a sad place of we were all raised the same. We have several atheists here on Hub Pages who were raised in Pentecostal environments. We have Mormons and Jehovah Witnesses. These are fundamental faiths with fundamental teachings.
They function in society. They pay their bills and are not a burden on society. As long as they meet those prerequisites, and stay within our laws, they can do as they please; just as I can. When their kids grow up, they can make their own decisions. The learning process doesn't end at eighteen.
I have no idea what you are going on about I really dont. Of course pedofilia is illegal. Isnt that forcing an opinion on others who think it is ok?
Teaching kids unfounded beliefs as facts should also be illegal since it is brainwashing.
Why should every kid be brought up the same if there is no religion being taught as fact? How on earth did you come to that conclusion?
All facts are the same. Thats just a fact. Every kid on the planet learns that 2+2=4 and why shouldnt they? It is fact.
What a kid is taught has nothing to do with how a kid is brought up. You can teach your kid drums, computer engineering or how to be a pilot if you want but teaching them that noahs ark actually happened or mohammed rode a horse to heaven as fact is just plain wrong and should not be allowed.
If you didn't want me to comment on pedophilia, you shouldn't have brought it up as an argument.
And you show a limited understanding of the concept of freedom. Where are you from? People have a right to raise their children in line with their conscience. They have the right to teach them, in line with their conscience. Whatever beef you have with religion, there are a hundred other things that a thousand other people have beefs with. And probably for valid reasons. If you get to insist on your desire being acted on; where does it end?
You can shove your opinion around, but you can't shove people. Not in a free society.
This is the primary problem I see with the atheist argument. There is no middle ground. There is no understanding of freedom of thought. It is as intractable as the fundamentalists.
This is a diverse society and will remain such, until our democracy is ended. I don't think any more of religion than you do, but neither of us has the right to force others to live by our convictions.
Kids don't have the right to choose, unless their parent grants it.
Evolution is an established fact.
Creationism is nothing more than an ideology completely unproven.
Should these things be taught to children in schools? Evolution only, regardless whether or not, private or public schools.
Creationism was only created to keep the god concept from disappearing.
Mr.Cagsil, Darwin stated that the cell,which at his time was the smallest object observable, and maybe at five to eight hundred magnignification was quite simple. Yet we know today with modern research,that the cell is not simple, but composed of dna that contains at least 238 amino acids that are essential for replication of itself. We have also established the FACT that these amino acids must line up in perfect sequence instantly,not over billions of years in order to initiate the sequence. This only refers to a miniscule cell in any organism.You`re in my playground now friend.Read up .
I`ve spent 40 years in R&D. Prove your case if you can get your foot out of your mouth. Come on man, give me something substantial, prove your case. All you ever do is rant. Facts man Facts.
I don't need to prove SH!T considering it's already known to the rest of the world. Just because YOU refuse to admit it, isn't my fault or my problem.
You need to grow up. Which is more than obvious.
You, my friend are already dis-credited by your own silence.Glad to shut you down. Big talk,no do.
Not too bright. Silence isn't the absence of anything.
Evolution has been proven for quite a while. Again, YOU don't want to admit, then you choose to do so.
both i think as theory . we need to address this topic not ignore it or leave it up to one sided idealism. The division and intolerance we see today is a direct result of doing nothing and letting parents and churches wash young minds
this is exactly why it should be addressed in class
civil ,moderated , grounded . otherwise its just a fight
which leads to war we have that already
I stated what I know and only a small ,insignificant portion.This has been my lifes research.Mr.Cagsil threw the first punch.
hi nice to meet you please don't take wrong, just a third party looking for constructive dialog in a civil manner on a important subject . god if there is such a thing , i hope would not want to be fought over . in my state when two party's fight and the cops come , both combatants go to jail despite who punched first.
I don't have a problem with public schools teaching that there are various viewpoints. I think it is healthy.
If someone wants their kids to be taught church doctrine then that someone can send their kids to a private, church-affiliated school.
Tritrain, the problem is with allowing someone to believe something that has been proven to be false. Many years ago,we did not have the research facilities and modern methods we do now. Research has changed and so has positive,proof evidences.Raising our children to believe in the Easter bunny and Santa Claus is different,and we always make them understand at certain ages that those hopes and aspirations were myths.But to willfully teach our children a lie is inconcievable.
Well, I suppose alternative beliefs could/should be taught by the parents.
However, I still feel that it is ok to teach that a fairly large portion of the world believes in things other than evolution. Out of respect for those people, it should be shown to the students, as another belief.
Just as I would not want my children to only one point of view, I think that creationism could at least have a day or week dedicated to it.
I agree, we need to allow our children to learn the facts (all the facts)and decide for themselves what they believe.
But Tritrain,evolution has been proven to be false. Do you think that your family 1200 generations back were apes? Where are your distant relatives that haven`t evolved? Have they written you lately? Sometimes I act like a jackass but none of my past generations ,at least back to 1680 C.E. were indentified as apes.
"Do you think that your family 1200 generations back were apes?"
I have long said that the only people that I have ever heard make such a statement are theists desperate to "prove" their "case" against the known facts of evolution. It is always used in a derisive manner, to ridicule the concept of evolution and convince the listener that it must be a silly and abhorrent idea, not to be tolerated by right thinking folk.
Unfortunately, it has no basis in fact at all. Neither the known facts nor the theories of evolution ever presented the idea that homo sapiens descended from apes; rather that the great apes (gorilla, chimpanzees, homo sapiens, etc.) were descended from a common ancestor. Note that although we are biologically classified as a "great ape" (the taxonomic family of hominidae) we are not an ape in common language; that is reserved for gorillas and other members of the great ape classification.
"none of my past generations ,at least back to 1680 C.E". I don't imagine so; the most recent known common ancestor died out around 14 million years ago. Once more your attempt at ridicule backfires and only shows an almost complete lack of knowledge of the general subject.
For someone talking from your own backyard, you are remarkably ignorant of it's geography.
Nobody thinks we descended from apes except people who don't understand evolution. We descended from a common ancestor. This is fairly obvious just from looking at chimpanzees.
If were going to teach creation in classrooms, we might as well teach the stork theory about conceiving babies.
Yes, obviously we were 'created'. By what and how remain a mystery however, so we really can't teach creationism since as a species we are so deliberately and collectively ignorant on the subject. The ancient Hebrews may have made a good guess despite the human error factor where they ignorantly leave rape and child abuse out of the 10 commandments, but it's all just theory . . . not proveable and quite frankly not very relevant to today's world where the more we learn the more these ancient beliefs appear so appallingly primitive. Evolution, on the other hand, is a good tool for science class to explain how we became the dominant species that we are, but it does not explain the origins of the creation of life. I find the Big Bang to be absolute rubbish; just as much as I find the theory that God needed to impregnate a Palestinian teenager in order to express love to his followers to be absolute rubbish.
Every culture throughout history has some sort of creation story. And that's what it is, a story.
And the morden story is the story of evolution
First and foremost, in science theories, there is no truth. Then get to differentiate;
a) a fact and
b) a theory
evolution theory is still just that; a theory. By definition; a theory is based on ideas not facts. Since when do a scientific theory become a proven fact? Do you mean that no future evidence can falsify evolution? Since evidences are always subject to interpratations, those who say evolution theory is a proven fact have converted evolution into just another dogmatic religeon!
Teach evolution as part of Biology classes. Teach creationism as part of Religious Studies classes, along with other creation myths. Problem solved.
Because the term "creation myths" is used to apply to religious explanations for the creation of the universe. The theory of evolution is not connected to religion.
What a ridiculous thread! Creationism is a cobbled together fabric of bu!!sh!t with no scientific credence or credible support - trying to argue it up to the status of a sound scientific theory well supported with evidence is symptomatic of a dying culture.
Nobody caused evolution to start. It's not as if there's a big button you can press. Do you understand how evolution works?
What a ridiculous thing to say. Have you stooped so low in your propagandist arsenal as to come up with an attack on atheists that is so weak and lame as to be utterly silly?
In Australia we used to have "Religious Instruction" which was voluntary in our government run schools. May kids saw it as an hour off.
Teach them how to write their own name PLEASE! Is that too much to ask?!
No. It was meant for the many children that get to 12th grade and can't even speak. Sorry Earnest... I didn't mean it as a reply.
How are you by the way?
Hi Klara! (I know I'm 12 hours late!) I am exceptionally happy and well at this time, and excited to be spending the day playing mini-golf with the kids later in the day.
Good to hear that! no worries about time delay... it's totally cool.
Hey Klara! We are both awake at the same time.
Children should be told that man got evolved by the commandment of the Creator-God in million of years. Advent of Adam and Eve denoted the epoch making event when man attained the stage of Direct Converse with the Creator-God.
Of course it was the Creator-God who taught man to speak and write.
Don't forget to throw in the plush garden and talking snake.
and don't forget the spittin' contest. I like the spittin' contest!
There was no talking snake. It's a metaphor, the yetzer hara, the evil inclination within. Eve was having an inner conversation along the lines of "Should I...? shouldn't I...? should I....? Oh what the heck, what harm can it do?"
Think about it rationally. If you saw a talking snake you would soil your trousers.
School sciences are for learning FACTS based on empirical hard evidence that is tangible and testable. No religion can offer up any proof of other than thousand-year old pieces of papyrus and tablets, most only half intelligible.
Religion should be examined only in a philosophical standpoint regarding past issues on world wars and genocides and the impacts said religions have made against the advancement of our species, and again only in psychology departments as examples of delusions and psychosis.
Nothing hinders our world more than holding on to the past.
Once we do away with childish things, we can all be adults in our journey into the future.
Very well put. Religion has proved to be very useful to psychology, although without religion we would not have needed as many psychiatrists and psychologists as we would have moved a helluva lot faster in brain knowledge without the religious fear response to the lizard brain.
What you perhpas convieniently forget ernest that religious faith has formed the basis of our laws and legal systems that hold society together. Without religion, all would be chaos I'll wager.
Religion is not the basis that morals were drawn from. Religious "faith" has to do with a misunderstanding of the fear of death response from the lizard brain, nothing to do with morals now or then.
People do good and bad things, we know a lot about how that works, and have for the last 50 years or more.
Even though we may have a better understanding of people doing good and bad things, where are you going to base your definition of what is and what isn't acceptable behaviour in society?
For all its fault, religion has given us the basis of our legal systems that keep society in cohesion.
I have always used logic myself. Certain behaviors bring about good things, others cause bad things.
I do not need religion to know the difference and nor do my children.
I'm afraid I disagree with you, on some levels. There are those who have shown a strong need for a belief in judgement from another plane.
Read some of the posts from fundamentalists. The things they say we would be doing without the fear of retribution shows the things they themselves are capable of doing. You, or I, would never consider such behavior, but they apparently would. I've always said wild people need religion. Liberal religious thinkers know this and this is why they believe religion is necessary for some.
Perhaps the atheists don't want cohesion in the society; they want to create disorder, I think.
I would disagree. I think maybe the atheists have enough respect for the ability of a human to make intelligent choices without thinking the only way to do it is by 'divine' guidance.
They should probably be labeled forward thinkers. Maybe they are just ahead of their time. Utopian dreamers of a moment in history when society will evolve to the point where it will be able to find some peace.
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