Are vegetarians fooling themselves?

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   premierkjposted 14 years ago

   There is nothing more annoying than encountering a pushy, preaching vegetarian sort who criticizes me for being human. I love meat and I won't tolerate people telling me what I can and can't eat. I don't mind a person eating leaves for dinner, but since it's against the natural order of things, vegetarians should keep their opinions about diet to themselves, unless asked otherwise.

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      sunforgedposted 14 years agoin reply to this

      perhaps your fooling yourself about what it means to be human

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         premierkjposted 14 years agoin reply to this

         what does that mean?

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      rebekahELLEposted 14 years agoin reply to this

      well, that's your opinion also. do you know where your meat came from and what's in it? you might think twice about your meat selections.  being a vegetarian is not against the natural order of life, it's a preference. to each their own, right?

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      crmhaskeposted 14 years agoin reply to this

      The title of your post, doesn't align with it.  In what way exactly are vegetarians fooling themselves?
      
      "humans are carnivorous" -> this is false, humans are not carnivores, we are omnivores.  You eat a diet composed entirely of meat, and you will find yourself pretty sick, pretty quick.
      
      I am a vegetarian, but not for moral reasons.  I am not against the consumption of animal for food, I am against the mistreatment of animals for the mass production of food.  Essentially I'm against the greed.  I will not partake in the abuse of something living, because globally we can't get enough.  I recognize the greed is predominant in everything, and that cutting out fish and meat is hardly the tip of the iceberg.  But I have to live too - you choose your battles.
      
      The "natural order of things" was put out of balance the day we started mass producing.  We abuse the planet and the things that reside on it because we think we own it.  We don't, and one day we will get our comeuppance.
      
      It seems to me premierkj, you are no less pushy.

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      Jeff Berndtposted 14 years agoin reply to this

      "There is nothing more annoying than encountering a pushy, preaching ... sort who criticizes me for [doing something that doesn't harm him or violate his rights]."
      There, fixed it for you.
      
      Nothing's wrong with vegetarianism. Nothing's wrong with eating meat. There is plenty, however, that's wrong with the way we produce our food (vegetables as well as meats). I've published a hub about this very subject, actually.
      I'm not a Vegetarian, and I'm Okay With That
      
      There's a difference, though, between advocating for humane, environmentally responsible agriculture and harassing someone because he doesn't practice your particular philosophy.

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      ceciliabeltranposted 14 years agoin reply to this

      well most vegetarians who do this used to love meat. (like myself) we are wishing people would stop eating it around us because it smells good, particularly chicken. LOL!
      
      The environmental impact of cattle raising is bad for the environment. It pollutes the water so on and so forth so some are militant.
      
      I on the other hand wish they would stop waving that chicken leg infront of me when I'm trying to be content in my mushrooms.

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      Sab Ohposted 14 years agoin reply to this

      "There is nothing more annoying than encountering a pushy, preaching vegetarian sort who criticizes me for being human. I love meat and I won't tolerate people telling me what I can and can't eat. I don't mind a person eating leaves for dinner, but since it's against the natural order of things, vegetarians should keep their opinions about diet to themselves, unless asked otherwise"
      
      Well said!

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      cosetteposted 14 years agoin reply to this

      
      
      my son and his girlfriend are vegetarians and they are not preachy, although some vegetarians can come across that way. i think maybe your vegetarian friends just might be trying to educate you a little or be helpful...
      
      there's some pretty bad stuff in our meat supply, i have to say.

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      sarovaiposted 14 years agoin reply to this

      Your angry face make me fear. I like veggie things.

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   Rafiniposted 14 years ago

   Seriously?  The first diet was vegetarian!  Only after Adam & Eve left the Garden of Eden did they begin to eat meat.  So...it all comes down to personal choice and nobody has the right to attempt to shove their own choice down someone elses throat!

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      ThatGirlFrankieposted 14 years agoin reply to this

      well said!

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      premierkjposted 14 years agoin reply to this

      garden of eden? save your fairy tales for children. I agree though that it is a personal choice, like I said, I don't mind if someone else doesn't eat meat. But twice recently I have been lectured about eating meat and it's really annoying. Vegetarians seem to think they are better than meat eaters, or more intelligent, or more worldly.

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         ThatGirlFrankieposted 14 years agoin reply to this

         I am smarter, more intelligent and more worldly than you. It's not just because I am vegetarian, it's because I practice what I preach. I don't judge others based on their choices and CLEARLY you've just done that.
         
         "but since it's against the natural order of things, vegetarians should keep their opinions about diet to themselves, unless asked otherwise.."
         
         You think your better than vegetarians, you just said it! So what's the real issue here?  It almost seems grade schoolish, like "you can't be mad at me because I was mad first! "

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            premierkjposted 14 years agoin reply to this

            fact- humans are carnivorous. that's what i mean when i say 'against the natural order'. when i say that vegetarians should keep their opinion to themselves, it is not meant with disrespect, it is with regards to my initial point, that they should not be pushy.
            
            "I am smarter, more intelligent and more worldly than you."
            
            Why make such a statement? You can't possibly know that.

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               ThatGirlFrankieposted 14 years agoin reply to this

               because in your encouragement for them to not be pushy your making statements aimed at demoralizing vegetarians. You have elected to point fingers at one group rather than at the general problem; pushy people. Your statement exudes ignorance and an intolerance towards choices that to some people are of "the natural order".

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                  Polly Cposted 14 years agoin reply to this

                  Yes, I agree, in fact you are pushing your own ideas onto other people.

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                  premierkjposted 14 years agoin reply to this

                  If anything I am trying to make the world a more tolerant place. I am not judging vegetarians because they don't eat meat. I am simply pointing out that in my experience there seems to be an attitude of contempt among vegetarians aimed at meat eaters and it is becoming very vocal.

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                     The10DollarMarkposted 14 years agoin reply to this

                     Just because there have been vegetarians judging you, does not mean all vegetarians are snobby.
                     
                     Also, claiming that it is unnatural is very disrespectful and *gasp* intolerant to other people's beliefs.
                     
                     Respect is a two way street. You don't want the vegiepeople to make accusations about you, just like they don't want you to make accusations about them.

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                        ThatGirlFrankieposted 14 years agoin reply to this

                        "Also, claiming that it is unnatural is very disrespectful and *gasp* intolerant to other people's beliefs."
                        
                        

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                     ThatGirlFrankieposted 14 years agoin reply to this

                     I just want to know what's wrong with being vocal? If it's done right and  because you have found a cause worth being an advocate for? You said yourself you don't agree with the meat industries ethics or the fast food nation we have become. So why is it such a bad thing if someone is standing up to it? Do you get mad at picketers outside planned parenthood? Do you get mad at those against the Death Penalty? So why be mad at someone who has taken a step further towards advocacy?  I agree, and always will that pushing your beliefs on someone else.. is not the way to go about things.. however, a good debate now and then between adults.. can be fun.

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                        premierkjposted 14 years agoin reply to this

                        Agreed about the debate being fun, but a little frustrated that I'm getting flack for bringing this topic alive.
                        
                        It's true that I hate processed meat and fast food and I honestly don't eat it, unless I get tricked into it which is not beyond the realms of possibility. People standing up to corporations who are convicted of mistreating animals or using the meat of such is obviously a good thing.
                        
                        But if I'm in a local restaurant eating local meat from good honest farmers and someone accuses me of being ignorant, then I get angry!
                        
                        PETA members should concentrate on protests against corporations and not against meat eaters.

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                           ThatGirlFrankieposted 14 years agoin reply to this

                           I don't think any vegetarian in this forum so far as said one bad thing about good honest farmers. In fact I do believe it was stated previously, that this is a supported practice and preferred as opposed to factory farming. If you have run across someone claiming to be a part of PETA who has treated you badly, then well that sucks.
                           
                           PETA: People for the Ethical Treatment of Animals
                           
                           Their main focus is on factory farms, in laboratories, in the clothing trade, and in the entertainment industry. Honest farmers doesn't fit that category and the person who called you ignorant was in fact quite ignorant themselves.

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                     Polly Cposted 14 years agoin reply to this

                     I think it works both ways, though. I am a mum of two and both my children have been brought up vegetarian. When my older son was little I worked part time in a pub and have lost count of how many of the customers, especially the older ones, verbally pointed out that this was cruel and not right. (Actually, they are very healthy and perfectly fine, before we get into a discussion about that). The point I am trying to make it that meat eaters voice their opinions about people who don't eat meat as well.

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            Mrvoodooposted 14 years agoin reply to this

            I am smarter, more intelligent and more worldly than you
            
            Pmsl, who says shit like that?  You may well be right, but seriously, arrogant much.
            
            As for the OP I have a lot of respect for vegetarians who are able to rise above appetites and urges for the sake of their beliefs, I personally haven't the will-power.

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               ThatGirlFrankieposted 14 years agoin reply to this

               I do, I was trying to make a point. I don't seriously think that, but he hit a nerve acting all superior.
               
               "Vegetarians seem to think they are better than meat eaters, or more intelligent, or more worldly."
               
               It's not just vegetarians who think they are better was the point.

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                  Mrvoodooposted 14 years agoin reply to this

                  LOL, no worries, it just made me chuckle.
                  
                  Personally I like to believe that I'm smarter, more intelligent, and more worldy than all the rest of you hubbers rolled together.
                  
                  Although I'm willing to accept that this probably isn't true.

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                     ThatGirlFrankieposted 14 years agoin reply to this

                     Are you tall, dark, handsome and full of tattoos? If so.. I think I'm in love..
                     
                     

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                        Mrvoodooposted 14 years agoin reply to this

                        I'm afraid not, I tick two of those boxes at best.
                        
                        Are you a woman with big boobs who's fairly easy after a few drinks?  If so... I think I'm in love.

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                           ThatGirlFrankieposted 14 years agoin reply to this

                           Big boobs...check..
                           Easy... no.
                           
                           Looks like we are both out of luck. touche.

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                              Mrvoodooposted 14 years agoin reply to this

                              

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         rebekahELLEposted 14 years agoin reply to this

         I understand what you're saying because I've run into those people also, on both sides. I eat meat but not often and when I do I eat organic, no beef. a lot of people really don't know how the food industry has changed farming and what it does to our food. until I read a few books and found out more, I was one of them. if you're interested in knowing more I did write a couple of hubs for the health contest. one is about food additives and the other is about buying organic and why.

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            ThatGirlFrankieposted 14 years agoin reply to this

            I agree with you, part of the reasons I quit was because of all the processed hormones. At this point, eating meat would make me sick it's been so long, but if I ever went back, it would have to be all organic farm raised meats.

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         sunforgedposted 14 years agoin reply to this

         well, we are more intelligent - have you looked at the list of historical vegetarians lately? einstein, edison, alberts schweitzer, gandhi, immanuel kant, da vinci, tolstoy
         
         plenty a modern vegetarian does such a dietary restriction based not on ethics, but rather on nutrition and pollution factors.
         
         Dioxin is yummy!
         
         but, i step out, as I actually dont believe in evangelizing anything.
         
         just took notice of "what it means to be human" and "natural order" - try taking the animal down all by yourself than eating its raw flesh - see how your system handles that.
         
         Walking into a fast food restaurant and ordering a "burger": is as far away from "natural" as i can imagine

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            Polly Cposted 14 years agoin reply to this

            Good point, sunforged, there is not a lot natural about a large proportion of the meat industry.

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            premierkjposted 14 years agoin reply to this

            I agree with your point about the fast food industry. I don't eat that stuff. your remark as to why we are not eating raw flesh is simply down to evolution. previous generations figured out that meat was less dangerous if we cook it and also tastes nicer. humanity has cooked meat for so long now that we have evolved into a race that can't really eat it any other way.

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            ThatGirlFrankieposted 14 years agoin reply to this

            

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   ThatGirlFrankieposted 14 years ago

   I'm a vegetarian, and I mostly agree with you. It's the same with any personal choice made. Religion, politics ect.. I can't stand trying to be "saved", or converted to republican. My pro-choice stance isn't going to change just because I'm being bombarded with pro-life biased information. Hopefully that's all your trying to say, is that you dislike pushy people.
   
   I will say this however,being vegetarian I hate it when those who don't agree with my choices say things like "I don't mind a person eating leaves for dinner, but since it's against the natural order of things,"... If your going to demand respect, the first step is practicing what you preach buddy.

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      Rafiniposted 14 years agoin reply to this

      oooh, well said!!

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         ThatGirlFrankieposted 14 years agoin reply to this

         haha.  I thought so. I'm feeling feisty this morning.

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            Rafiniposted 14 years agoin reply to this

            I could tell!  lol 
            
            I'm glad you were here, I couldn't stick around today....

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               ThatGirlFrankieposted 14 years agoin reply to this

               No worries Rafini.. I got your back..Though I should watch myself.. Don't wanna get lynched my first week..Hehe.

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      kerrygposted 14 years agoin reply to this

      Yeah, I'm not vegetarian myself, but I have lots of friends who are and the number of times I've been lectured about my eating habits by vegetarians and vegans is FAR outnumbered by the number of times I've heard rude comments about vegetarians' personal choices from omnivores.
      
      Coming in here and complaining about being told what you should and should not eat while simultaneously comparing vegetarian diets to "eating leaves for dinner" is so blatantly hypocritical, it can't possibly be innocent stupidity. I call troll, and not even a particularly creative one.

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         ThatGirlFrankieposted 14 years agoin reply to this

         K, I'm new. Let me give this a whirl...
         
         Troll; to make ridiculously callous comments to incite debate because they've got nothing else to do.
         
         Is that about right?

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            kerrygposted 14 years agoin reply to this

            Yup, that's a workable definition.
            
            http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=troll

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            premierkjposted 14 years agoin reply to this

            forgive me for inciting debate on a forum.

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   pisean282311posted 14 years ago

   you are absolutely right...i eat non veg occasionally...say twice a year ..mostly m vegetarian ...what should i eat is none of others business...

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      ThatGirlFrankieposted 14 years agoin reply to this

      who's right?

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   Polly Cposted 14 years ago

   Well, I am a vegetarian and I know many others. I never push my views onto other people, it is up them what they eat, the same as it is up to me.  I do not believe being vegetarian is going against the natural order of things. Furthermore, meat consumption has vastly increased over the years and meat production puts a lot of environmental strain on the planet. Perhaps in the past a family might eat meat twice a week, now it is often daily. The cheap cost and ready availablilty is part of the reason why. And eating too much meat, especially red meat, is not healthy.
   
   Don't take this the wrong way - I might be a vegetarian, but this is not the sort of stuff I would ever 'preach' about to a meat eater. I'm only saying it now because it's a forum topic.

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   sunforgedposted 14 years ago

   prove your fact: "fact- humans are carnivorous"
   
   How are your teeth formed? What can your body digest in its "natural" form? What types of food are most likely to lead to poor health?
   
   Without tools what can you personally catch and kill ?

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      premierkjposted 14 years agoin reply to this

      yup my bad, i meant omnivores.

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   The10DollarMarkposted 14 years ago

   Fact - Humans aren't carnivorous, they're omnivorous. Carnivorous means ONLY meat, but humans naturally need both meat and greenage.
   
   I'm pretty sure for any thing, unless you're harming someone directly, it's impolite to have someone impose their views on you.
   
   Personally I don't really understand vegetarianism. I know it's because they feel bad about eating other living things, but plants are living things too... Actually, apart from water and spices, everything we consume is living. Why are animals so special that they're more important than plants? Also, why is it considered wrong to kill something for food? Even animals kill other animals to feed on. Why is it considered taboo for humans, who are also animals (though we like to think we're superior) to indulge in natural animal behavior? We're not herbivores, and even if we were, even herbivores will eat other animals when needed (there are deers that eat birds, even though they're herbivores, because the birds are their only source of a vital nutrient that their habitat lacks).
   
   But would I go to a vegetarian and say "You're ridiculous.", no. It's their choice, whether I get it or not, and it's not hurting anyone directly. Just like I don't want any vegans/vegetarians telling me it's wrong to have meat.
   
   And btw, while it's true that the meat industry isn't very natural, neither is the crop industry. Very little is organic these days, and even foods that label themselves sometimes as "organic" aren't.

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      crmhaskeposted 14 years agoin reply to this

      This is a gross misconception, in fact most vegetarians didn't make the choice for moral reasons.  All vegetarians that I personally know are not against the consumption of animal for food.  I know I certainly am not.  Humans are by nature omnivorous, and I am not so naive to insist that we should become herbivores.  First and foremost, without a sufficient amount of protein in our diet we would evolve backwards - our brains would get smaller.  That being said, the average meat eater consumes too much protein in a day, it is important, but not nearly as important as is insisted.
      
      As I stated in my post above, I am a vegetarian because I am against the maltreatment of animal for the mass production of food.  I am against the greed.
      
      That being said, it would be a terrible day if everyone became a vegetarian.  We'd begin to have gross over population problems of the animals we eat, and seriously, has anybody seen a wild cow?  They would tip themselves over with a lack of knowing what to do with themselves.
      
      I see the rise in the vegetarian population as natural selections solution to our abuse of the animal kingdom.

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         The10DollarMarkposted 14 years agoin reply to this

         See, that's why I would never go against a vegetarian. I obviously don't know all the possible reasons for vegetarianism and it'd be wrong for me to assume I did. I do know the few vegetarians I do know are all for the reason I mentioned, but 3 people is hardly an appropriate sample size. That's why forum discussions are nice; you get to learn stuff from people (sometimes.. Other times you get people who are so not willing to listen and explain)
         
         But if you're against mass production and consumption of animals, why become a total vegetarian? Why not just be an omnivore that eats relatively little animal meat instead of completely forsaking it? I think spreading a message of "I only eat as much meat as I need, which isn't that much" is easier than "don't eat meat". And since you can't change industries unless you get a large amount of people to follow your doctrine, wouldn't the first approach have a broader appeal than vegetarianism itself?

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            crmhaskeposted 14 years agoin reply to this

            There definitely exist vegetarians and vegans who have chosen the lifestyle for moral reasons.  I don't even like getting into conversations with them about vegetarianism, and I'm a vegetarian.  I personally have never attempted to force my dietary habits on others, nor have I had a bad experience with a non-vegetarian responding to my choice rudely (though my roommate has).  I agree though, some people would rather get offended or defensive, instead of taking the time to understand.
            
            
            
            
            That is a valid question, and I have no reasonable answer for it that could not be refuted.  I've stopped and re-started my vegetarianism on several occasions, but for the last two years I've remained a vegetarian, and I don't think that will change.  At this point if I tried to eat meat, it would probably make me sick anyways.  I don't even miss it, I don't have the desire to eat meat - so I don't.

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   skyfireposted 14 years ago

   Humans are omnivores: http://www.vrg.org/nutshell/omni.htm
   
   I know one thing for sure, life eats another life to survive. So is there any thing like being a vegetarian ?

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   Polly Cposted 14 years ago

   I believe there are places in the world where people have been vegetarian for thousands of years. Correct me if I'm wrong. It isn't a new concept.

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    TLMinutposted 14 years ago

    I took his original comment as a protest against what he's recently been subjected so it didn't bother me. I was just thinking last night how glad I am that we don't have to spend all day every day on the alert for something that's going to pounce out of nowhere and eat us. And that we don't have to spend all our time searching for and chasing down something to eat to avoid starving to death.
    
    Can't say I'm really a vegetarian, I just don't like meat. I don't like animals dead or alive, on my plate or in my house. Seeing them naturally in the wild is awesome though! Domesticated animals are sad, like the 'wild cow' comment. What we have done to these poor creatures!

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       premierkjposted 14 years agoin reply to this

       Yeah i have some sympathy for farmed animals that have been altered over time. it's so deliberate it's like death camps of the four legged variety. that's the food chain for you!

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    timorousposted 14 years ago

    Let cool heads prevail...
    
    No one likes having any concept shoved at them as though it was the gospel truth.  Such wisdom (the gospel truth) only comes from having a truly open mind and doing your own thorough research, and carefully weighing the facts from as many sources as possible.
    
    Vegetarians are not  fooling themselves.  It has been well documented that vegans live healthier and longer lives than those that are primarily meat-eaters.  It has also been proven that animal fats are not good for the human digestive system.  I am not strictly a vegan, but I'm well aware of the value a balanced diet.  Fruits and vegetables are an essential part of that, and meat (which provides protein) is much lower on the list of necessary foods.
    
    The human body doesn't have the kind of enzymes that allow us to eat animal flesh, as other animals do.  You wouldn't eat raw meat would you?  Cooking the meat kills many of bacteria and other organisms that would otherwise make you sick.
    
    I won't even go into what's really in the meat you buy..it's a bit scary, but moderately safe in small quantities if you maintain a healthy diet otherwise.  Fresh fruits and veggies aren't off the hook either, but at least you can (mostly) wash the pesticides off before you eat them.  If you can grow your own, so much the better.
    
    Just remember, an opinion is just that..although some opinions are based on true facts and not just ignorant presumptions.

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       Jeff Berndtposted 14 years agoin reply to this

       "No one likes having any concept shoved at them as though it was the gospel truth." I don't even like having the Gospel shoved at me as though it was the gospel truth.

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    TLMinutposted 14 years ago

    About people telling others what they should and should not eat - of course we should! When we find out how the human body is affected, we need to pass that on to others. And the whole obesity epidemic in America shows that many people needed to be told a whole lot more.
    
    I got flack for being a rabbit, have had people offer to go gather grass and leaves for me - it's just a joke until it's old. Most people I would think by now KNOW moderation in all things is best. (Though perhaps not moderately evil, eschewing that altogether is best!)

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       premierkjposted 14 years agoin reply to this

       yeah i agree that children should be educated about how to eat in moderation. obesity has very little to do with whether one is a meat eater or a vegetarian, but probably more to do with vending machines in schools and the exploitation of children.
       
       I think i'd like to withdraw my initial remark about 'leaves for dinner', it was honestly meant to poke fun in the nicest possible way but it has clearly caused offence.

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          crmhaskeposted 14 years agoin reply to this

          I'm impressed, don't judge a person by the first post of theirs you read I suppose

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             kerrygposted 14 years agoin reply to this

             Me too. The troll accusation is hereby withdrawn.
             
             To the OP - for future reference, jokes about "leaves," "rabbit food," and the like might be funny the first three or four hundred times a vegetarian hears them, but after awhile they get really bloody annoying. Even to those of us who only hang out with vegetarians. It's not a good way to start a serious discussion, if that is in fact your goal.

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                ThatGirlFrankieposted 14 years agoin reply to this

                AGREED!!

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          rebekahELLEposted 14 years agoin reply to this

          eating meat steadily can pack on the pounds. cutting down on meat consumption certainly eliminates some unneeded, unhealthy fat calories. much of the meat is loaded with growth hormones fed to both beef cattle and dairy cows, poultry which can and does lead to weight gain. if you've never seen the documentary Food, Inc. it's going to be on PBS April 21. it's highly enlightening and informative.

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          TLMinutposted 14 years agoin reply to this

          By the way, this didn't offend me at all. Others perhaps. I'm used to it, always found it amusing because the ones saying this were my kids and their dad (meat lovers all). Besides, it's true, isn't it?

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    habeeposted 14 years ago

    My husband and I eat meat, but we've cut back on our consumption of it. I don't have a problem with humans killing animals for food. The problem I have is how the animals are treated while they're alive and how humanely they're killed.
    
    That being said, I don't understand why some people are so against hunting. It's the kindest form of harvesting meat for human consumption. The animal lives its entire life free and is then killed quickly. No being shipped to the slaughterhouse, no being left without food and water for days, and no horrible method of death.

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    Sab Ohposted 14 years ago

    I think we should hunt and eat vegetarians. Maybe have a little vegan appetizer to start

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    Obscure Divineposted 14 years ago

    Wow!  Food religion!  ...Okay, now back to my rib-eye steak!

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       crmhaskeposted 14 years agoin reply to this

       lol, I wish that wasn't correct, but it essentially is - some vegetarians and vegans take it to the extreme like in any thought group

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    richardheftposted 14 years ago

    It's all about balance and health. Some people need to eat meat, some don't. If you're living in Alaska, you need to eat meat. If you've become severely blood deficient, you need to eat meat (red meat, chciken, turkey, etc.). What you never do is criticize another's diet, unless they ask, then offer your opinion. I owned and operated a health food store for many years. I saw a lot of sick vegetarians and some healthy. There's a time and place for evrything. It's not what goes into the body that defiles it but what comes out.

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    Inspiration101posted 14 years ago

    Sounds like you had a bad experience. I think you will always encounter extremists in any given group. That small subgoup should define the entire group though.

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    sneakorocksolidposted 14 years ago

    Soilent Green isn't vegetable, its people! AAAYYYYYEEEEEE!

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       ThatGirlFrankieposted 14 years agoin reply to this

       Listen to me Hatcher! Ahhh

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