For the unbelievers

1. 79

   elayne001posted 13 years ago

   Since you do not believe in a "God", how do you explain your inborn urge to create (write/poetry/art, etc.)?

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   1. 72

      KeithTaxposted 13 years agoin reply to this

      Or drink, smoke, or drive 5 miles over the speed limits.
      
      How does wanting write prove there is a god?

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   2. 71

      Cagsilposted 13 years agoin reply to this

      Hey Elaine,
      
      I have found that your equating religion and it's "god", with art or writing or poetry, in bad taste.
      
      Writing, art and poetry, all come from the imagination, which is formed by one's collective knowledge about life and experience.

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      1. 61

         nikki1posted 13 years agoin reply to this

         God gave us all the gift of imagination. God fought for us all, its sad that this is going on.

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         1. 71

            Cagsilposted 13 years agoin reply to this

            You're too funny. But, thank you I needed a good laugh today.

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            1. 61

               nikki1posted 13 years agoin reply to this

               

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      2. 57

         spacedout1posted 13 years agoin reply to this

         While I agree a person's creative abilities can be inspired by experience, God ulimately gave that person or people the Ability to express their creativity.   The ability to express one's creativiy is an equal and natural right.

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   3. 60

      TMMasonposted 13 years agoin reply to this

      You should read Alfred Russell Wallace's work on evolution and the human mind and other attributes unexplainable through evolution.
      
      I think you would find it very interesting.

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   4. 61

      nikki1posted 13 years agoin reply to this

      They will find there way to God, hopefully. In their own way. Christians do not push God on the non believers. Just demonstrate random act of kindness philosophy. It is also recommended for the non believer to go to church with an open mind. And, experience a true feeling of Christian peace in your heart. It feels great.
      Smiles to all

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   5. 84

      psycheskinnerposted 13 years agoin reply to this

      Why do you assume God is the source of all creativity?  When you explain that I will feel like I have something to explain.

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2. 77

   frogdroppingposted 13 years ago

   What does the urge to write have to do with religion? I'd love to know

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3. 62

   SunSevenposted 13 years ago

   I thought there is a sub category in the forums for stuff like these?

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4. 78

   Internetwriter62posted 13 years ago

   I believe in God and I believe my wanting to believe is based on something deeper than even my wanting to create art or poetry.

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5. 94

   wildernessposted 13 years ago

   Buried somewhere in the intelligence that evolution has given us is the urge to create, whether it be a bison on a cave wall or a new concept that might indicate how the universe formed.  The urge to create is one of the "outlets" of intelligence.
   
   On the flip side, why in the world did God give us this urge?  Do you think He views with pleasure the bison on the cave wall as a magnificent art form from his little pets?  Or does He laugh with cruel glee as we try to understand His creation?

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   1. 60

      TMMasonposted 13 years agoin reply to this

      Evolution in no way explains those qualities of man such as Phylosophy, Art, reflection and contemplation, etc. To say oh somewhere in there evolution did this... is absurd.

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      1. 94

         wildernessposted 13 years agoin reply to this

         You, then, believe that philosophy, art, etc are not a part of intelligence?  That they are not intertwined beyond separation? 
         
         It seems to me that the more intelligent an animal generally is, the more creative it becomes.  Chimpanzees make and use tools, for instance.  Of course the "higher" or "more difficult" the creativity, such as art or philosophy the more intelligence is needed, limiting it to only one species.  On the other hand, the "dumber" the animal the less chance of being truly creative as opposed to instinctive actions.
         
         Do you not think that instructive cave drawings are related to survival?  The creation of language didn't help a species survive?  Of course, both did, and both came about as a result of increased intelligence, which was brought about by evolution.  Look a little deeper than a knee jerk reaction.

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      2. 84

         psycheskinnerposted 13 years agoin reply to this

         No, it really isn't.  Creativity is adaptive.

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6. 79

   elayne001posted 13 years ago

   I believe some of us worship the creation more than the creator (including myself at times). Is it not obvious that this whole thing called life did not just happen? Sorry if I offend anyone with my questions. I do not intend to. Just wondering.

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   1. 60

      TMMasonposted 13 years agoin reply to this

      Any statement inferring the existence of God is enough to get them going on you elayne.
      
      Don't apologize for it... you have a right to ask any ? you want.
      
      If they don't want to answer, they don't have to.

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   2. 61

      nikki1posted 13 years agoin reply to this

      God is more than a creation, it is the CREATOR of all life. He made our beautiful world,. He and his son fought for our lives. I for one believe in him and son and the bible. Which was written by
      ordained ministers/priests. They knew what they were doing. And, proud they wrote it.

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7. 78

   Internetwriter62posted 13 years ago

   Ask yourself then, why do the stars shine or why does anything exist. To give Him glory, that is why.

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   1. 71

      Cagsilposted 13 years agoin reply to this

      Actually, I would disagree. But, I think you already knew that.
      
      Those things exist, because of the existence of other things.
      
      Just like YOU exist, because of other factors, such as YOUR parents had children.
      
      Just a thought.

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8. 77

   frogdroppingposted 13 years ago

   Well no answer from the OP. Oh well. So far as I can see and going along the lines of what wilderness just posted - say creating anything is a God thing, we were gifted creativity. Then it works on the flip side too.
   
   Not all things are created equally or for the right reasons.   If so, things are a little skewed somewhere. Creating weapons of mass destruction can hardly be considered as bringing peace and harmony to the world

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   1. 71

      Cagsilposted 13 years agoin reply to this

      No, but WMD's did come from the imagination, that many believe "god" gave people. If that were so, then it could lead one to believe that "god" intended for humankind to destroy themselves.
      
      Absolutely absurd.

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      1. 61

         nikki1posted 13 years agoin reply to this

         God created Adam in his image. God created our world. And, everything in it.

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         1. 71

            Cagsilposted 13 years agoin reply to this

            Glad you think so.

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         2. 78

            Internetwriter62posted 13 years agoin reply to this

            I agree.

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      2. 78

         Internetwriter62posted 13 years agoin reply to this

         The tree that Adam and Eve ate from was called the tree of knowledge of Good and Evil. They were given a choice and failed, we inherited their nature.
         
         I know you don't agree with me, Cagil. But that is how I believe, it is.

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         1. 71

            Cagsilposted 13 years agoin reply to this

            You cannot even prove Adam and Eve actually existed. Neither can humanity. So, want to try again?

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            1. 78

               Internetwriter62posted 13 years agoin reply to this

               You're right, I cannot prove anything. That's why it is called faith. I believe what the Bible teaches. It has nothing to do with empirical evidence. It has everything to do with my heart, and having faith.

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               1. 71

                  Cagsilposted 13 years agoin reply to this

                  I realize that.
                  But, what you fail to realize is that "faith", on a human level, is about putting it into yourself, mastering your own thoughts and actions, so you can live an above average form of life. It has nothing to do with any form of higher power or being of any kind.
                  If you believed what the bible teaches, then you would have walked in the footsteps of those who wrote the scripture and found yourself not believing in 'god'.
                  
                  The fact that Jesus' work was twisted to mean something it did not, is where religion destroyed his work.
                  
                  But, since we are in the Hubber's Hangout. I'll stop there.

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                  1. 78

                     Internetwriter62posted 13 years agoin reply to this

                     You mention Jesus so I have just one question.  Who do you believe Jesus is?

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9. 78

   Internetwriter62posted 13 years ago

   I don't think God created these weapons. He gives us free will. Yes there is evil in the world, but that is because we are given a choice. The original creation was a paradise, where everything was good. Then sin came, there you have your weapons of mass destruction.

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   1. 77

      frogdroppingposted 13 years agoin reply to this

      Ah ok. So when a poem is written, a charming story published, a painter sits with brush twixt his fingers, creating a masterpiece - it's all glory to God?
      
      But when a weapon is created (key word: create) it's free will?
      
      lol

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      1. 71

         Cagsilposted 13 years agoin reply to this

         Nice point Froggy!

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   2. 71

      Cagsilposted 13 years agoin reply to this

      SIN is a religious term. It is not used in any true understanding of life.

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   3. 61

      nikki1posted 13 years agoin reply to this

      Nicely said. Man created weapons. God made man in his own, thats what started the human population. Eve unfortunately ate from the
      apple when she was not supposed to. Satan temped her and she fell
      for it. I for one forgive her.

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10. 77

    frogdroppingposted 13 years ago

    Well Cags I've never actually said I do or don't believe. However, that not being the point ... I do like to see fair play.
    
    If the Almighty is the bestower of creativity, the creator of all things then ... you know ... we can't start getting into pedantics.
    
    Creating is as creating does - there is only one (real) definition. Good creating/bad creating - both are either free will or Gods fault.
    
    This is a dead horse my friend. We both knew that from the start *bump*

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    1. 78

       Internetwriter62posted 13 years agoin reply to this

       I guess it comes down to what one believes.

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       1. 71

          Cagsilposted 13 years agoin reply to this

          It boils down to "how" you create your belief in the first place. Not so much what you believe, but 'how' you reached the belief that is important.
          
          If you're basing a belief on something that is not true, and YOU do not know it is not true, then it doesn't make it true. It only shows your lack of knowledge about the subject matter.
          
          Sorry.

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          1. 78

             Internetwriter62posted 13 years agoin reply to this

             There you have it, you believe the Bible isn't true and I believe it is. This is an age old argument.

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             1. 71

                Cagsilposted 13 years agoin reply to this

                I said it was twisted.

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11. 77

    frogdroppingposted 13 years ago

    For my part I'm happy to hear you've got faith. I'm sure it gives you strength and hope in your life.
    
    My problem with threads such as this is that whenever a part of who and what we are is a positive, it's because God made it so. When it's negative - it's free will.
    
    Now, we can argue all day (or not) about religion. But we can't argue with logic. Let's keep things simple and not complicate them with flowery words, quotes and indignation.
    
    If God blessed humanity with the gift of creativity - fine. But that's 100% - no discounting the bits we don't like.
    
    Pure math

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    1. 78

       Internetwriter62posted 13 years agoin reply to this

       I agree, lets not argue over religion, that is a personal and individual matter. As to logic, you do have a point. People do not always produce good things. Weapons of mass destruction is an excellent example. Based on logic, good and bad things are produced. On the other hand, do you wonder what drives people to create good or bad things.

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       1. 77

          frogdroppingposted 13 years agoin reply to this

          
          
          No, not really. There is nothing to wonder at. Back to logic ... it's called choice. Which others like to call free will. One and the same.
          
          I know I've made bad choices. I blame no one. Not God/religion/circumstance. I'm responsible. Same as when I make a good choice.
          
          My view may seem stark, or lacking imagination. But that's probably what makes me one of the happiest individuals you'll ever bump into, virtually or otherwise.
          
          Or maybe it's God

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          1. 78

             Internetwriter62posted 13 years agoin reply to this

             I'm glad you are happy, in today's world it's hard to be. I don't think you lack imagination, you are an excellent writer and very intelligent.

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             1. 77

                frogdroppingposted 13 years agoin reply to this

                Now there's a civil reply if ever I saw one. Compliment noted and graciously received - I thankyou
                
                Now I'm going to look for a home, then give in to the urge to sleep - wherever you are, enjoy your day/evening

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                1. 78

                   Internetwriter62posted 13 years agoin reply to this

                   You're Welcome!  I hope you have a good night.

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       2. 82

          Rafiniposted 13 years agoin reply to this

          Creation is not by accident.  Good or bad, doesn't matter.
          
          Discovery is not on purpose.  Expected or unexpected, doesn't matter.

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12. 80

    LeanManposted 13 years ago

    free will, free choice, free beer?, what does any of it have to do with god????

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    1. 82

       CMHypnoposted 13 years agoin reply to this

       Is it your round then LeanMan - shall I spread the word?

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       1. 80

          LeanManposted 13 years agoin reply to this

          I'm buying, no problem, come on over...

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13. 73

    Rishy Richposted 13 years ago

    Its our imagination that generates the urge to create poetry, art, writing & concepts like God ...

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    1. 64

       ceciliabeltranposted 13 years agoin reply to this

       i don't know about that, our imagination is a manifestation caused by our brain. but our brain evolved from our environment. The history of evolution is contained in the brain. you can actually anatomically see the progression of evolutionary development within it, so it is generating ideas in the exact way nature is generating lifeforms. it does it in sets of tree-like branching out (familiar with mind-mapping?)
       
       quick examples:
       http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phylogenetic_tree
       http://www.novamind.com/connect/nm_docu … 1520956629
       
       I say that we came up with the word G-d, but the concept of a continuous source of creation exists outside of us, that is why we are churning up those ideas. we sense a higher order that is very similar to our own out there.
       
       and to be precise, the established theory for art writing and poetry is it is an evolutionary by-product of Mating.
       
       These things developed to increase chances of getting a mate.

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       1. 79

          elayne001posted 13 years agoin reply to this

          I kind of like that last part where you say that we evolved into creativity in order to mate - is that what you said?

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    2. 79

       elayne001posted 13 years agoin reply to this

       where did we get our imagination - from a big bang?

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14. 64

    ceciliabeltranposted 13 years ago

    i think (though i hate to sound like a broken record) that human consciousness is a microcosm of ever increasing scales of consciousness. I think the universe is conscious. It is a friggin' brain of something so large lets not even talk about it.
    
    But does the conscious universe care about each person in this minute part of the cosmos? NO. We are part of its mechanism just like our the contents of our neurons are part of our mechanism.
    
    We however embody the same creative nature of this consciousness within us and can draw from the repeating patterns of creative power a similar albiet scaled down ability to create realities.
    
    Fractal geometry shows that everything in nature defined as chaos is made of scaled down versions of itself that increases infinitely towards larger and larger scales...but they are the same shape, same patterns. like the hair patterns on your whorl mirror that of weather patterns and that of the shape of galaxies.
    
    If its in math, its out there.
    
    In it's in your head, its happened before.
    
    So in this way, in my view the truth is somewhere in the middle.
    There is no god in a classical sense but then there is a macroscopic mind that is infinitely more complex but similar to our own out there, and we are within it and it is within us.
    
    our math can fathom it.
    
    the universe is its physical nature just as our bodies are the physical tentacles of our minds.

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15. 55

    (Q)posted 13 years ago

    We all have imaginations and use them to create things. Some people simply allow their imaginations to rule their worldview, despite being quite wrong about it.

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    1. 64

       ceciliabeltranposted 13 years agoin reply to this

       "Imagination is better than knowledge"-Albert Einstein

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       1. 55

          (Q)posted 13 years agoin reply to this

          That would number 36 of the Woo-woo Credo:
          
          "Quote Einstein, and do so often. Quote things he said if possible, but Einstein has been dead for ages now and so it's permissible to bring him up to date. Change the odd word here and there to make it clear that Einstein would have supported your argument if only he knew what you know. Act as if any arbitrary Einstein quote supports your position."

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          1. 64

             ceciliabeltranposted 13 years agoin reply to this

             as opposed to quoting no one and claiming to know anything other than "nope"

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       2. 79

          elayne001posted 13 years agoin reply to this

          I agree with Einstein - knowledge can be depressing - imagination is hopeful.

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          1. 94

             wildernessposted 13 years agoin reply to this

             I would have put it the other way - "I've found a way the cure cancer" as opposed to imagining the vast majority of people burning in eternal Hell.
             
             Or perhaps it's all in what we know or imagine and what we do with it.

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16. 64

    ceciliabeltranposted 13 years ago

    and yet some don't even have enough. so not enough knowledge, even less imagination....enthropy.

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17. 61

    Cayden Ryanposted 13 years ago

    for everyone who doesn't believe or does believe,
    
    If there is no greater being that has created anything, then where did everything come from?
    
    sure you have the big bang theory and theory of evolution, however, this is scientology, correct?
    
    and in scientology, is it not a fact that you can NOT create somethign from nothing?
    
    so for people to say they believe in evolution, but to not believe that something sometime created it, is to disprove the original statement they made, thus proving that their opinion is not based on facts, but rather opinion, and not that that is wrong, but how can you base your existence on simple guesses?
    
    I believe in a higher being for the same fact I don't believe in scientology,
    
    1+1=2     not
    _+_=2
    
    to create something, you need a starting point, there are none in the theory of evolution/big bang/science
    
    give me a reason to believe why every single particle thats ever existed came from one organism changing, awesome, but tell me that the original organism came out of non existent space, nah

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    1. 59

       Mark Knowlesposted 13 years agoin reply to this

       But - surely that is exactly what you believe?
       
       It just requires a majikal super being to do it. LOLOLOLOLOL
       
       Yes - science is scary. Sorry you do not understand it. I hope the majikal super being answer makes you feel better.

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    2. 61

       nikki1posted 13 years agoin reply to this

       God created earth, us. Weither non-believers believes that or not it is the truth. God fought for our soul. God loves us. When make sin/mistakes, all is required is admit to the mistakes and do damage control. And, move on. Also, forgiving yourself for the errors is also important. No matter the size of the mistakes. As long as you clean it up. Also, using common sense to prevent errors from happening is also important. Think before you act, speak,.
       Avoiding temptation.

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    3. 64

       ceciliabeltranposted 13 years agoin reply to this

       err that are many books about how that happened.

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    4. 79

       elayne001posted 13 years agoin reply to this

       I like how you think Cayden. Just doesn't seem practical or possible for us all to just come from nothing.

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    5. 94

       wildernessposted 13 years agoin reply to this

       Ignorance (lack of knowledge, NOT the insult) can be astounding.  Let my correct some of your comments:
       
       1.  To believe something is not to know it.  There is a difference.  To know requires factual evidence.  To believe something requires only imagination.
       
       2.  Scientology is a religion found by L Ron Hubbard.  It has nothing to do with science or fact.
       
       3.  Nowhere does physics demand that something was there before the big bang, anymore than religion demands that something created God.
       
       4.  The statement "I believe in a higher being for the same fact I don't believe in scientology" makes no sense; it states you are ignorant of higher physics and therefore you believe in God.  As a logical conundrum your conclusion has no connection to the premise.
       
       5.  To indicate you need a starting point for the big bang is false - it is only your own lack of training coupled with a need to "prove" God.  Again, you do not seem to have a need for the beginning of God, but won't make the same kind of statement that God is therefore impossible.
       
       In order to attempt a debate using logic and facts, one must understand at least the basics of both or the inevitable result is the GIGO principle - garbage in, garbage out.  If you wish to understand or discuss the concept of the big bang or evolution, I suggest you study the matter, and not from other people that share your own preconceived ideas and will only spout nonsense designed to "prove" those ideas.  Rather read scientists that DO believe the big bang occured, examine their data and try to understand WHY they think as they do.

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18. 64

    ceciliabeltranposted 13 years ago

    point is, there is no point.

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19. 61

    nikki1posted 13 years ago

    God created our world and us. That is all there is it.

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    1. 84

       psycheskinnerposted 13 years agoin reply to this

       If you have zero flexibility or interest in other outlooks, why even discuss it?

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       (Q)posted 13 years agoin reply to this

       That might be true if the bible was the only book you ever read.

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20. 79

    elayne001posted 13 years ago

    "The uncreative mind can spot the wrong answer, but
          it takes a creative mind to spot the wrong question."
                    Anthony Jay

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