They Think They Replaced Them, But They Didn't

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  1. profile image0
    Deborah Sextonposted 12 years ago

    All the time I hear Christians say the Jews rejected Jesus so God has given Israel's place to the Christians

    Has the church really replaced Israel? I don't think so!

    From the Hebrew Bible, Book of Jeremiah

    "Thus said HASHEM , who established the sun for light by day and the laws of the moon and stars for light by night; who stirs up the sea into roaring waves; HASHEM, Master of Legions, is his name.

    If these laws could be removed before me, so could the seed of Israel cease being a people before me forever. Thus said HASHEM; If the heavens above could be measured and the foundations of the earth below could be fathomed, only then would I reject the offspring of Israel, because of everything they have done". - Jeremiah 31:35-37

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    1. profile image0
      SirDentposted 12 years agoin reply to this



      The church did not replace the Israeli people.  Gentiles are grafted onto the vine. 

      I honestly don't know of anyone, personally, who believes the church replaced Israel.

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      1. profile image51
        paarsurreyposted 12 years agoin reply to this

        Jesus was not sent to the Gentiles; they wrongly got grafted to evil vine of Paul.

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        1. Jeff Berndt profile image72
          Jeff Berndtposted 12 years agoin reply to this

          Jesus was sent to the Jews, and He sent His disciples to the Gentiles. So by the transitive property, Gentiles are okay.

          But yes, Paulian doctrine is about my least favorite part of the New Testament, and a lot of people who call themselves Christians are really Paulians more than anything else.

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          1. profile image51
            paarsurreyposted 12 years agoin reply to this

            Jesus sent his disciples only to the places where lost tribes of Jews resided; he did not sent them to the Gentiles.

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    2. profile image51
      paarsurreyposted 12 years agoin reply to this

      Christians do not replace Israel who follow Moses; Jesus and Mary were truthful followers of Moses but the Christians are not. Christians neither follow Moses nor Jesus; they follow cunning Paul, siful scribes and the misled Church.

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      1. Disappearinghead profile image61
        Disappearingheadposted 12 years agoin reply to this

        You don't like Paul do you? Maybe you'd rather see humanity become slaves to laws they don't understand rather than living by self conscience and self determination, obeying God out of love rather than compulsion. Oh hang on, you're a Muslim aren't you. Yes you'd rather have the slave than the free right to choose.

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        1. profile image51
          paarsurreyposted 12 years agoin reply to this

          I have a free right to choose while I belive others also do have it; it is well within my faith:

          [109:1] In the name of Allah, the Gracious, the Merciful.
          [109:2] Say, ‘O ye disbelievers!
          [109:3] ‘I worship not that which you worship;
          [109:4] ‘Nor worship you what I worship.
          [109:5] ‘And I am not going to worship that which you worship;
          [109:6] ‘Nor will you worship what I worship.
          [109:7] ‘For you your religion, and for me my religion.’

          http://www.alislam.org/quran/search2/sh … php?ch=109

          Jesus was a truthful person; Paul was against him; I have to choose between the two. I am a free man to choose. I choose Jesus; the Christians may choose Paul or better they also choose Jesus and leave Paul.

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          1. profile image0
            Deborah Sextonposted 12 years agoin reply to this

            __________________
            I absolutely Agree

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        2. Jeff Berndt profile image72
          Jeff Berndtposted 12 years agoin reply to this

          I don't much care for Paul either. Most of Christian misogyny can be directly laid at Paul's feet.

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    3. Greek One profile image63
      Greek Oneposted 12 years agoin reply to this

      where did you hear Christians say that they took the Jews place?

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      1. profile image0
        Deborah Sextonposted 12 years agoin reply to this

        _____________________
        Many Christians have made this statement to me.
        They also said all Jews rejected Yahshua.

        I was in the Christian church until I was 17.

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        1. Greek One profile image63
          Greek Oneposted 12 years agoin reply to this

          Got to go to a better church smile

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          1. profile image0
            Deborah Sextonposted 12 years agoin reply to this

            ---------------------
            I converted when I was 18. I'm Jewish now

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            1. Greek One profile image63
              Greek Oneposted 12 years agoin reply to this

              that was just last year.. you can come on back smile

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              1. profile image0
                Deborah Sextonposted 12 years agoin reply to this

                Thanks for the invitation but........
                I can't turn back now

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            2. profile image0
              SirDentposted 12 years agoin reply to this



              How does one become Jewish?

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              1. profile image0
                Deborah Sextonposted 12 years agoin reply to this

                __________________
                I had to study and be under the teachings of the Priests.
                Than I had to demonstrate I understood.
                I lived in Savyon, Israel for one yr.

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                1. profile image0
                  SirDentposted 12 years agoin reply to this



                  Don't take this the wrong way please.  I am not trying to start something. 

                  My understanding of a Samaritan is the offspring of a Jewish father and a gentile mother or vice versa.  To my knowledge one must be born a Jew to be a Jew.

                  If I recall correctly you said that your husband is a Jew (please correct me if I am wrong).  Would this make your children Samaritans? 

                  I also understand that Jews did not have any dealings with Samaritans back in the time of Jesus and before.

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                  1. Disappearinghead profile image61
                    Disappearingheadposted 12 years agoin reply to this

                    In Judaism there is a history of people converting to Judaism and being accepted as Jews. One does not need to be born a Jew to become a Jew.

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                  2. profile image0
                    Deborah Sextonposted 12 years agoin reply to this

                    ___________________________
                    Sir Dent. I am Jewish in religion not nationality, although my husband is both. He is an Israeli. (He looks American. He has dark brown hair, and brown eyes)

                    I have 1 child living and a child that has passed.

                    Our Child is part white American and part Jew (by nationality)

                    I've never heard Samaritan used as "the offspring of a Jewish father and a gentile mother or vice versa".
                    Samaritan in Hebrew is said "shom'roniy" and it means a person who is helpful to others and gives to charity (as in  Luke 10:33).

                    It also refers to people living in Samaria (In biblical times).
                    Today there are people living in Nablus and they say they are descendants of the Samaritans, They both practice Judaism and they only go by the ancient version of the Pentateuch as Scripture.

                    Thanks for asking.

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                2. Jeff Berndt profile image72
                  Jeff Berndtposted 12 years agoin reply to this

                  Yeah, the Jews have standards. The Christians will take anybody who shows up.

                  Really, though, what the rest of the people think of you isn't the important thing. The important thing is that you treat the rest of the people kindly, and do your best to serve God (redundant?).

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                  1. profile image0
                    Deborah Sextonposted 12 years agoin reply to this

                    _____________________________
                    Someone asked me, how does a person become Jewish.
                    That was my answer.
                    I didn't mention anything about Jewish standards.

                    How did you get anything from my few words, that I care what people think of me?

                    I'll discard the "be kind" remark.

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        2. Disappearinghead profile image61
          Disappearingheadposted 12 years agoin reply to this

          I think your problem is that you went to a church in America. Those evangelicals are an excitable lot who are not prone to studying the scriptures.

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    4. profile image0
      Brenda Durhamposted 12 years agoin reply to this

      It's not that God has given us Israel's place;  they still have it if they want it.  We gentiles were given the same opportunity as they had and have.

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    5. IntimatEvolution profile image67
      IntimatEvolutionposted 12 years agoin reply to this

      You know, in my circle of friends I have never heard that.  Now that's not saying that other people don't make that claim, but, I'm glad you're there to set them straight. 

      Where do you find these people?  In a time warp to the 10th century?  How strange....  I didn't even realize that people still talked that way.  It's an odd way of thinking, especially since it was America who created the "State of Israel" for all the Jewish Holocaust victims to come "home to" after the war.  It is America who really protects and serves Israel.  Yes America is a Christian nation, but let's face it, America's position on Israel is nothing but total support.  I'm curious, are the people you're referring to Americans?  Because when I throw out the notion that the State of Israel should be really named Palestine, and that the Jews have committed nothing short of Genocide on the Muslims, and that American really should not be supporting the Jewish nation.........., all hell breaks lose.  I hear words such as, "We MUST!" "Support the Jews!" "God's ancient people!" "Israel belongs to the Jews!" (crap).  But nonetheless total contradictions to what your saying.  So I'm curious, are these Christians you're referring too Americans?

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      1. profile image0
        Deborah Sextonposted 12 years agoin reply to this

        _____________________________
        In 66 CE the Jews broke free of Rome, naming their short-lived kingdom "Israel". The revolt failed, leading to the destruction of Jerusalem and the Temple by Titus in the year 70.

        Yes, American Christians, when I leave America, I don't discuss spiritual beliefs.
        Israel and America are allies. Americans and Israelis signed a treaty (a contract)  to help each other.  Since it is a contract, America have to aid them
        Here are some scriptures about Israel.
        Genesis 12
        1. Now the LORD had said unto Abram, Get thee out of thy country, and from thy kindred, and from thy father's house, unto a land that I will shew thee:
        2. And I will make of thee a great nation, and I will bless thee, and make thy name great; and thou shalt be a blessing:
        3. And I will bless them that bless thee, and curse him that curseth thee: and in thee shall all families of the earth be blessed.

        Psalms 122
        1. I was glad when they said unto me, Let us go into the house of the LORD.
        2. Our feet shall stand within thy gates, O Jerusalem. …….
        6. Pray for the peace of Jerusalem: they shall prosper that love thee.
        7. Peace be within thy walls, and prosperity within thy palaces.
        8. For my brethren and companions' sakes, I will now say, Peace be within thee.
        9. Because of the house of the LORD our God I will seek thy good.

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      2. profile image0
        just_curiousposted 12 years agoin reply to this

        Where exactly did you come up with the idea that America created the state of Israel? I never heard that one.

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        1. Disappearinghead profile image61
          Disappearingheadposted 12 years agoin reply to this

          During World War I, British Foreign Secretary Arthur Balfour issued what became known as the Balfour Declaration, which "view[ed] with favour the establishment in Palestine of a national home for the Jewish people"

          The Jewish Legion, a group of battalions composed primarily of Zionist volunteers, assisted in the British conquest of Palestine. Arab opposition to the plan led to the 1920 Palestine riots and the formation of the Jewish organization known as the Haganah.

          In 1922, the League of Nations granted the United Kingdom a mandate over Palestine under terms similar to the Balfour Declaration.[64] The population of the area at that time was predominantly Arab and Muslim, with Jews accounting for about 11% of the population.

          With countries around the world turning away Jewish refugees fleeing the Holocaust, a clandestine movement known as Aliyah Bet was organized to bring Jews to Palestine. By the end of World War II, the Jewish population of Palestine had increased to 33% of the total population.

          After 1945, Britain found itself in fierce conflict with the Jewish community, as the Haganah joined Irgun and Lehi in armed struggle against British rule.At the same time, thousands of Jewish refugees from Europe sought shelter in Palestine and were turned away or rounded up and placed in detention camps by the British. In 1947, the British government withdrew from the Mandate of Palestine, stating it was unable to arrive at a solution acceptable to both Arabs and Jews.

          On May 14, 1948, the day before the expiration of the British Mandate, the Jewish Agency proclaimed independence, naming the country Israel.

          http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israel

          True, America had nothing to do with creating the state of Israel.

          However, The American Evangelical Church's support of Israel against the Palestinians right to self determination, appears to me based upon some notion that the Church can 'help along' the fulfillment the 'End Time' prophesies. It's suits the Church to have Jews and Arabs fighting each other, because that 'will bring about Armageddon. Maybe I'm being disingenuous here.

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          1. profile image0
            Deborah Sextonposted 12 years agoin reply to this

            _____________________
            It was the Jews land but they were killed, used as slaves and banned from their own land.
            It was renamed.
            But because they want their land back, people judge them

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            1. Disappearinghead profile image61
              Disappearingheadposted 12 years agoin reply to this

              The land back argument doesn't really work. The state of Israel came to an end in AD135 by Hadrian in confirmation of Jesus 'End of Israel' prophecies, which was itself God's judgment upon them.

              Now if in the interim another ethnic group move in, how can Jews after 2000 years turf them out of their homes?

              It's like saying the Welsh and the Cornish can make a claim on England because the Romans, Vikings, and Anglo Saxons pushed them to the West of Britain between 2000 and 1300 years ago.

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              1. profile image0
                Deborah Sextonposted 12 years agoin reply to this

                _____________
                Wow! you need to look up the History of the Jews.

                What was God suppose to have punished them for? I guess because they understand scripture and don't follow the teachings of the Christian..

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                1. Disappearinghead profile image61
                  Disappearingheadposted 12 years agoin reply to this

                  Matt 23:34-36
                  I send to you prophets, and wise men, and scribes, and of them ye will kill and crucify, and of them ye will scourge in your synagogues, and will pursue from city to city; that on you may come all the righteous blood being poured out on the earth from the blood of Abel the righteous, unto the blood of Zacharias son of Barachias, whom ye slew between the sanctuary and the altar: verily I say to you, all these things shall come upon this generation.

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                  1. profile image0
                    Deborah Sextonposted 12 years agoin reply to this

                    ____________
                    But in Matthew Yahshua was speaking to the scribes and Pharisees
                    Not to all of the Jews.

                    In every country,and every nationality, there are those who do the worst crimes. Murderers, pedophiles, Thieves, adulterers, etc.
                    Even some of the Churches teach these things are OK because you have forgiveness. 

                    God would not punish all, for a few's wrong doings.

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              2. profile image0
                Deborah Sextonposted 12 years agoin reply to this
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          2. profile image0
            just_curiousposted 12 years agoin reply to this

            You disingenuous? I would find that shocking.smile

            That's my take on history, for the most part, too. But, I assumed the evangelicals were working toward a seven year peace. I don't pay a lot of attention to the prophecy argument, but isn't that supposed to come first?

            I think the thing that irritates me is how America gets blamed for history in the oddest places. Truman (I think it was him) supported the idea, but it was floated in Europe and implemented by the Israelis themselves. If I remember my history, the Israelis were quite fretted with America for being a little pansy in their support of the takeover effort.

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  2. profile image0
    just_curiousposted 12 years ago

    I don't know much of anything, but I always thought the statement that the Jews had been replaced was ridiculous. You don't throw a kid out when you adopt another.

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    1. profile image51
      paarsurreyposted 12 years agoin reply to this
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      1. Druid Dude profile image61
        Druid Dudeposted 12 years agoin reply to this

        Jesus is  the messiah of the Hebrew people, and his salvation is extended to the gentiles.

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  3. Jerami profile image58
    Jeramiposted 12 years ago

    Deborah Sexton wrote
      All the time I hear Christians say the Jews rejected Jesus so God has given Israel's place to the Christians

    Has the church really replaced Israel? I don't think so!


    = = = =

      I don't think so either. Why would the Hebrews be punished for rejecting the Messiah when God blinded their eyes that they not see;  (as described is Psalms).

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    1. profile image0
      Deborah Sextonposted 12 years agoin reply to this

      _____
      Could you please tell me where the verse(s) are in Psalms that you are speaking of.

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      1. Jerami profile image58
        Jeramiposted 12 years agoin reply to this

        It was been so long ago. I do not remember where it was.

          I'm pretty sure that it said that God would make their eyes blind that they not recognize their messiah when he comes.

           But I could be wrong ?
           I'll try to find it later.

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      2. Disappearinghead profile image61
        Disappearingheadposted 12 years agoin reply to this

        Isaiah 6:9-11 is the passage that Jesus (sorry Deborah, the one the Church calls Jesus) referred to in john 12:37-41.

        However, none of this should be taken that the Church supplanted Israel.

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    2. profile image0
      Deborah Sextonposted 12 years agoin reply to this

      __________________
      I doubt it is speaking of the Jews or if it is speaking of anyone.

      In Romans 11:8-9-10
      Paul is speaking of the Jews and states "It is written: God hath given them the spirit of slumber, eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear;) unto this day. .."

      But what Paul quotes as scripture is not found anywhere in scripture.

      The he continues on in Romans 11: 9, 10  stating that 9.  "David said,
      Let their table be made a snare, and a trap, and a stumblingblock, and a recompence unto them:

      10. Let their eyes be darkened, that they may not see, and bow down their back alway"

      Paul was misquoting (on purpose) Psalms 69:22-23

      David was NOT speaking about the Jews. He was speaking about his enemies, those that hated him. David prayed further that God would pour His wrath out on them (his enemies)

      Any time you run across a verse where Paul is suppose to be quoting scripture look it up. He usually takes a verse from one book and another one from another book of the old testament puts them together and makes a false statement about what it means.

      Most people don't search out to if he is really quoting scripture or not.

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      1. Jerami profile image58
        Jeramiposted 12 years agoin reply to this

        Only my opinion, but I think that when the church compiled the canon, they combined a number of  "books" into one in order to consolidate. 

           This would seem a natural thing to do in order to not be TOooo repetative. Not saying it was the right thing to do!

          Given all of the writings that they had to choose from, there had to have been some editing in order to construct them in a fashion for the canon to acheive their desired purpose.

           If we think about it ?????

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        1. profile image0
          Deborah Sextonposted 12 years agoin reply to this

          ____
          I don't understand what you are saying.
          Please explain.


          Of course the English Bible was edited.
          The Hebrew Bible was Canonized 450 BCE and hasn't changed since that time.

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          1. profile image51
            paarsurreyposted 12 years agoin reply to this

            Here comes the misled Church in action; they changed/edidted the English Bible unauthorized and yet would propogate that it was inspired.

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      2. profile image51
        paarsurreyposted 12 years agoin reply to this

        Cunning Paul might have thought as to who would bother to ask for the reference.

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  4. profile image51
    paarsurreyposted 12 years ago

    Jesus and other messengers who came after Moses were followers of the Law given to Moses by the Creator-God Allah YHWH. Law only changed with the advent of Muhammad.

    [5:45] Surely, We sent down the Torah wherein was guidance and light. By it did the Prophets, who were obedient to Us, judge for the Jews, as did the godly people and those learned in the Law; for they were required to preserve the Book of Allah, and because they were guardians over it. Therefore fear not men but fear Me; and barter not My Signs for a paltry price. And whoso judges not by that which Allah has sent down, these it is who are the disbelievers.
    [5:46] And therein We prescribed for them: A life for a life, and an eye for an eye, and a nose for a nose, and an ear for an ear, and a tooth for a tooth, and for other injuries equitable retaliation. And whoso waives the right thereto, it shall be an expiation for his sins; and whoso judges not by what Allah has sent down, these it is who are wrongdoers.
    [5:47] And We caused Jesus, son of Mary, to follow in their footsteps, fulfilling that which was revealed before him in the Torah; and We gave him the Gospel which contained guidance and light, fulfilling that which was revealed before it in the Torah, and a guidance and an admonition for the God-fearing.
    [5:48] And let the People of the Gospel judge according to what Allah has revealed therein, and whoso judges not by what Allah has revealed, these it is who are the rebellious.
    [5:49] And We have revealed unto thee the Book comprising the truth and fulfilling that which was revealed before it in the Book, and as a guardian over it. Judge, therefore, between them by what Allah has revealed, and follow not their evil inclinations, turning away from the truth which has come to thee. For each of you We prescribed a clear spiritual Law and a manifest way in secular matters. And if Allah had enforced His will, He would have made you all one people, but He wishes to try you by that which He has given you. Vie, then, with one another in good works. To Allah shall you all return; then will He inform you of that wherein you differed.
    [5:50] And We have revealed the Book to thee bidding thee to judge between them by that which Allah has revealed and not to follow their evil inclinations, and to be on thy guard against them, lest they cause thee to fall into affliction on account of part of what Allah has revealed to thee. But if they turn away, then know that Allah intends to smite them for some of their sins. And indeed a large number of men are disobedient.

    http://www.alislam.org/quran/search2/sh … p;verse=44

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  5. profile image0
    Kiriuposted 12 years ago

    Deborah
    I think the verse you asked about which Jerami talked about is Psalm 69:22,23

    Do Jews recocgnise Jesus as the Christ? If yes, then they are christians. Doesn't a Jew need to obey God in order to inherit kingdom of God as much as a Gentile? If yes, then in NT, we cannot say christians replaced the  Jews. Rather, there is no longer difference between a righteous Jew and a righteous Gentile (christian?). A sinfull Jew and a sinfull Gentile

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    1. profile image0
      Deborah Sextonposted 12 years agoin reply to this

      In my third post here I remarked on Psalms 69 and how Paul misquoted it please read. It wasn't taking about the Jews.
      Please read it.

      But the topic at hand is that most Christians think they took Israel's place.

      In Romans 11:8-9-10
      Paul is speaking of the Jews and states "It is written: God hath given them the spirit of slumber, eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear;) unto this day. .."

      Paul was misquoting (on purpose) Psalms 69:22-23

      David was NOT speaking about the Jews. He was speaking about his enemies, those that hated him. David prayed further that God would pour His wrath out on them (his enemies)

      Most all of Yahshua's followers were Hebrew (Jews). They did not reject him (only the Pharisees and Sadducees). The Jews rejected Paul's teachings. Paul had mostly Gentile followers.

      It was the Romans who killed Yahshua not the Jews.
      The Jews refused to speak out against Yahshua.

      Cephas was a High Priets appointed by the Romans

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      1. profile image52
        kneed2knowposted 12 years agoin reply to this

        Deut. 29:2-5
          2 quotes: And Moses called unto all Israel & said unto them
          5 quotes: Yet the Lord HATH NOT given you an heart to perceive,& eyes to see & ears to hear unto this day.....

        you will find this quote also in o.t....

        Isaiah 8:14
          And  he shall be for a sanctuary; but for a "stone of stumbling & for a rock of offense to both the houses  of Israel , for a gin (trap) & for a snare to the inhabitants of Jerusalem.

        Romans kill our Lord & saviour because the  chief priest & elders & all the council sought false witness against Jesus to put him to death.....(Matt. 26:59).  Pilate washed his hands of Christ death , because he could find no reason to kill him. They wanted Barabbas unto them instead of Christ.   ....... read (Matt. 27:21-26)...

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        1. profile image0
          Deborah Sextonposted 12 years agoin reply to this

          Isaiah 8:14
            And  he shall be for a sanctuary; but for a "stone of stumbling & for a rock of offense to both the houses  of Israel , for a gin (trap) & for a snare to the inhabitants of Jerusalem.

          ______________

          Cepheus was chosen and appointed by the Romans, read it again with understanding.
          It was the priest and government employees that called for his death. They were a multitude.

          God has not forsaken the Jews, ever. People take a few verses that they feel supports what they believe, and ignore the many that doesn't say what they want.

          Let's back up, starting at V1
          You do realize that many more than just the Jews lived in Israel. Many have invaded it.

          Isaiah 8:1-8
          It says the Assyrian army should come with speed, and make great spoil. Very soon the riches of Damascus and of Samaria, cities then secure and formidable, shall be taken away by the king of Assyria. The prophet pleads with the promised Messiah, who should appear in that land in the fullness of time, and, therefore, as God, would preserve it in the mean time. As a gentle brook is an apt emblem of a mild government, so an overflowing torrent represents a conqueror and tyrant. The invader's success was also described by a bird of prey, stretching its wings over the whole land

          Isaiah 8:9-16
          The prophet challenges the enemies of the Jews. Their efforts would be vain, and themselves broken to pieces. It concerns us, in time of trouble, to watch against all such fears as put us upon crooked courses for our own security. The believing fear of God preserves against the disquieting fear of man. If we thought rightly of the greatness and glory of God, we should see all the power of our enemies restrained. The Lord, who will be a Sanctuary to those who trust in him, will be a Stone of stumbling, and a Rock of offense, to those who make the creature their fear and their hope
          ________________

          And Paul picked parts of verses in different books and chapters and quoted them as if they were constructed that way. It changes the whole meaning

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          1. profile image52
            kneed2knowposted 12 years agoin reply to this

            While Christ had Jewish followers who believed he was the Christ, he also had those who plotted to kill him from Jewish descendants like the Pharisees & Sadduces.

            You said,that the Romans killed Christ, not the Jews.That  the Jews refused to speak out against Christ, but in( John 7:1) Jesus did not walk in Judea because the jews sought to kill him.
            Also in (John 7:12-13) IT says some of the people said Christ was good ,some not ,However no one spoke of him "for fear of the Jews".

            (John 7:19-23)
            Christ says they were the people who received the Law from Moses as well as circumcision.( who were seeking to kill him)

            (John 8:37) Christ tells them" I know you are Abrahams seed ; But you seek to kill me' because my word has no place in you &  they answer him in ( John8:39) Abraham is our father ,Jesus said unto them,"If  you were Abrahams (Children) you would do the works of Abraham & now you seek to kill me.  (41)  You do the work of your father......(  my words here.... satan).

            SO they are Jewish in blood( to lineage) of Abraham But not Children of Abraham because they did not believe in & on Christ in faith as Abraham did.

            I know GOD has not forsaken the nation of Israel Or her people but their are still evil people there, just as evil people are every where in the world preaching another gospel not of GODS.

            peace & blessing to you

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            1. profile image0
              Deborah Sextonposted 12 years agoin reply to this

              _________________________
              I already stated that about the Pharisees here
              http://hubpages.com/forum/topic/73918?p … ost1615904

              They hated Yahshua because he exposed them as hypocrites. They taught the law, but didn't live it.
              But... they are not the ones who killed him.

              All Jews are children of Abraham. God called them his seeds, which meant the people who are part of his family.
              Yahshua said they weren't Abraham's because they made the Devil their Father.

              The Romans conquered Judea and made it a province of the Roman Empire. The Roman government was brutal.

              John 18:12 - "So the Roman cohort ( an ancient Roman military unit) and the commander, and the officers of the Jews, arrested Jesus and bound Him,"

              Matthew 26:47,50
              "And while He was still speaking, behold, Judas, one of the twelve, came up, accompanied by a great multitude with swords and clubs, from the chief priests and elders of the people . . And Jesus said to him, "Friend, do what you have come for." Then they came and laid hands on Jesus and seized Him."

              Caiaphas feared that the Romans would destroy Judea if there was a rebellion.
              John 11:50 "consider that it is expedient for us, that one man should die for the people, and that the whole nation perish not."

              The Romans and those under them (Caiaphas, who the Romans appointed as High-Priest) killed Yahshua, not the Jewish People.

              These people who were appointed by the Romans were part of a puppet government.
              This means that they were being controlled  by the Romans either through bribes (the Romans were wealthy) or through threats. The Romans did this so the Jewish leaders would be blamed for all the bad things instead of them.

              It was the Roman Latins who did the first translation of the Bible. But if Old and New Testament is carefully read you'll see.

              The Priests were afraid of Yahshua

              18. And the scribes and chief priests heard it, and sought how they might destroy him: for they feared him, because all the people was astonished at his doctrine.

              They looked for people who would be a witness and lie

              Matthew 26:59, 60
              Now the chief priests, and elders, and all the council, sought false witness against Jesus, to put him to death

              60. But found none: yea, though many false witnesses came, yet found they none. At the last came two false witnesses.

              Calvary was outside of Jerusalem not inside.

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              1. profile image0
                Brenda Durhamposted 12 years agoin reply to this

                All true Christians are in the family of God, whether they are of direct Jewish descent or not.   Jesus is the only way for a soul to be saved.

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                1. profile image0
                  Deborah Sextonposted 12 years agoin reply to this

                  _________________________
                  Yes, I know what you believe. However I was responding to the statement that no Jew is of the seed of Abraham unless they believe in Christ.

                  All Jews are of Abraham.

                  About Jesus being the way. He himself said the words he speaks are not his, and that he does not speak of himself. He was speaking of  God

                  John 12:49
                  For I have not spoken of myself; but the Father which sent me, he gave me a commandment, what I should say, and what I should speak.

                  John 14:10
                  Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works

                  He never spoke of himself.

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                  1. profile image51
                    paarsurreyposted 12 years agoin reply to this
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  6. profile image0
    Kiriuposted 12 years ago

    Yes of course it were Romans who killed Jesus but they did so to please the Jews. Jews were not allowed to kill anyone because the authority was Roman. Romans at that time were more tolerant than Jews and could no kill someone because of religeous issues. But you see it were Jews who gave false testimony against Jesus ,that he was insiting people and calling himself a king. Turning a religeous case into a criminal case so that Romans may kill Jesus.

    Perharps however, we may say Jewish laymen had no problem with Jesus. Infact Jesus had increasingly many Jewish followers. This was what made Jewish leaders to worry. So Jews in general cannot be said to have been responsible for the murder of Jesus but Jewish leaders were.

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    1. profile image0
      Deborah Sextonposted 12 years agoin reply to this

      ______________________
      Maybe you better read again.

      "The passions of the Christ" portrayed it this way but not the scriptures.

      The High Priests were afraid the people would all follow Yahshua instead of them.

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  7. profile image0
    Kiriuposted 12 years ago

    Deborah
    Not only was it a jelousy issue, it was also a cowardness issue. They also feard that Jews would make Jesus king which would trigger Roman reactions.

    Do Yahshua mean savior in Hebrew as Jesus mean saviour in Greek? Or do we talk about two different people?

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  8. profile image0
    brotheryochananposted 12 years ago

    Matthew 23:37 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killed the prophets, and stoned them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathers her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!
      Matthew 23:38   Behold, your house is left unto you desolate.
      Matthew 23:39   For I say unto you, Ye shall not see me henceforth, till ye shall say, "Blessed is he that comes in the name of the Lord".

    This is the jewish confession of faith in the Jesus. Christ will not return until as a nation the jews say "Baruch haBa b'Shem Adonai", which is what is said above.

    Paul speaks of a grafting into the tree of the gentile nation and the roots are the hebrew nation.
    Peter is sent to the gentiles in acts 10, the sheet with the animals in it, that descended 3 times (repetition shows importance) and the roman cornelius was converted and saved and received the holy ghost.

    The gentile nation does not replace "Gods chosen people", we were included. The gentiles are 'spiritual israel'. God is still working with his chosen people and the gentile nations.

    When Christ comes back he will establish Zion in Jerusalem.

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    1. profile image0
      Uirikposted 12 years agoin reply to this

      Nice one!

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    2. Disappearinghead profile image61
      Disappearingheadposted 12 years agoin reply to this

      Or England big_smile

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      1. Jeff Berndt profile image72
        Jeff Berndtposted 12 years agoin reply to this

        And did those feet, In ancient times....

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      2. profile image0
        brotheryochananposted 12 years agoin reply to this

        not enough sunshine in england big_smile

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  9. profile image0
    Deborah Sextonposted 12 years ago

    Many Christians in America believe this. It is called the Replacement Theology.
    The doctrine is based on the teachings of Paul.

    The beliefs are:
       1. Israel, consisting of the Jewish people and the land,  has been replaced by the Christian Church. That old Israel  was excluded from God and his plans,  and that the Church took the place of Israel.

       2. The Jewish people are now no longer a "chosen people." In fact, they are no different from any other group, such as the English, Spanish, or Africans.

       3. Apart from repentance, the new birth, and incorporation into the Church, the Jewish people have no future, no hope, and no calling in the plan of God. The same is true for every other nation and group.

       4. Since Pentecost of Acts 2, the term "Israel," as found in the Bible, now refers to the Church.

       5. The promises, covenants and blessings given to Israel in the Bible have been taken away from the Jews and given to the Church, that replaced them. 

    By Clarence Wagner

    Yahshua said:

    "On this rock I will build My Church, and the gates of Hell will not overcome it" (Matt. 16:18). The Church is built on the testimony and understanding of Peter, who is Jewish

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    1. Disappearinghead profile image61
      Disappearingheadposted 12 years agoin reply to this

      Is the issue with you the definition of what the Church is? If you see the Church as being Gentile based, then that would explain you opposition perhaps.

      The Church was not Gentile only, but Jew and Gentile. Yeshua did not make any such claim about Jews en mass being replaced by the Gentile. He talked about some Jews being pruned off the olive tree and their places being taken by grafted in wild olives.

      He gave a New Covenant in His blood. The Law was fulfilled by Him and the penalty of non-fulfillment being taken upon Him. This is how not one jot can be removed from the law at the same time as now making it possible to live in freedom from the law. A Peter made it clear, how can the Gentiles be expected to live under the yoke of the law, that all along the Jews were unable to bear?

      So the law has been fulfilled, but the Jews have not been replaced. The way is open for Jews to accept Yeshua's sacrifice.

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      1. profile image51
        paarsurreyposted 12 years agoin reply to this

        Jesus was a Jew and follower of the Law of Moses. He did not die on the Cross so the Christians wrongly think that he made a blood sacrifice.

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        1. Disappearinghead profile image61
          Disappearingheadposted 12 years agoin reply to this

          Well you would say that, you always do.

          Mohamed was illiterate and so never wrote the Quran, and neither did an angel appear to him. When traveling Jews rejected him as a prophet, he got a bit uppity and started killing people.

          See it's easy to make sweeping statements Paaar without supporting arguments. smile

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      2. profile image0
        Deborah Sextonposted 12 years agoin reply to this

        ________________

        I know the Jews have not been replaced. I was speaking of those who teach this doctrine.

        God said the covenants were everlasting.

        Can I bring up a subject without you saying I have a problem with it.
        God has a problem with those who teach the doctrines of man as though they are from God.

        Seems many do not understand what the blood means either.

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        1. profile image51
          paarsurreyposted 12 years agoin reply to this

          Quran explains the everlasting Covenant in many a verse:

          [2:84] And remember the time when We took a covenant from the children of Israel: ‘You shall worship nothing but Allah and show kindness to parents and to kindred and orphans and the poor, and speak to men kindly and observe Prayer, and pay the Zakat;’ then you turned away in aversion, except a few of you.

          http://www.alislam.org/quran/search2/sh … p;verse=83

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          1. profile image0
            Deborah Sextonposted 12 years agoin reply to this

            _________________
            It's true that some Jews did some wrong things. They Lost faith, grew weary, and didn't listen. Every country has people like this.

            But God does not lie. He made promises and said they are everlasting.

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            1. Disappearinghead profile image61
              Disappearingheadposted 12 years agoin reply to this

              Furthermore, God did not abandon the Jews in favour of the Arabs either.

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              1. profile image0
                Deborah Sextonposted 12 years agoin reply to this

                _________________
                God has not abandoned the Jews..ever.

                It is some Christian faiths that think this..not me.

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                1. Disappearinghead profile image61
                  Disappearingheadposted 12 years agoin reply to this

                  Agreed. smile

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  10. profile image51
    paarsurreyposted 12 years ago

    Paul is wrong. Jesus was a follower of the Law of Moses.

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    1. Disappearinghead profile image61
      Disappearingheadposted 12 years agoin reply to this

      He was more than a follower of the Law of Moses, He fulfilled the law. So where is Paul wrong? What exactly is your point?

      How many times must we go around the mulberry bush?
      |O

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      1. profile image0
        Deborah Sextonposted 12 years agoin reply to this

        _____________
        Paul was teaching the wrong doctrine (on purpose). He taught the law was a curse, was abolished, and that after the death of Yahshua, we were no longer bound to the law.

        But Yahshua fulfilled everything that was prophesied about him.

        Luke 24:44
        "And he said unto them, These are the words which I spake unto you, while I was yet with you, that all things must be fulfilled, which were written in the law of Moses, and in the prophets, and in the psalms, concerning me.

        By "written in the Law of Moses" he means the Torah, And the Prophets, and Paslms (everything written about him in the Old Testament.)
        He isn't speaking of the Laws God wrote with his finger and gave to Moses. Not the Laws that were made for everyone.

        All the things occurred that the prophets prophesied about, concerning Yahshua. Because God spoke through the prophets, everything had to occur when and how he said it would.


        He was saying that he allowed or brought about those prophecies because God had spoken them. He knew that not one jot would pass till he fulfilled (lived) those prophesies.

        He didn't do away with the Shall and Shall not commandments or any of the laws. He them easier to understand and taught us how to keep the,

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        1. Disappearinghead profile image61
          Disappearingheadposted 12 years agoin reply to this

          So ae you saying that Peter was incorrect not to burden  the Gentile believers with the law, but instead gave them just four commands? Or would you be in agreement with those that said the Gentile believers must be circumcised and obey the Mosaic law?

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          1. profile image0
            Deborah Sextonposted 12 years agoin reply to this

            ____________________

            I'm saying, Peter at no time told them they didn't have to keep the laws.

            Acts 15
            Peter was speaking of circumcision only.

            When Paul went to Jerusalem and told the Elders about his conversion of the Gentiles,

            The Pharisees which was a religious group, felt circumcision and the Laws should be taught and kept by the Gentiles.

            Paul was arguing about it with the Pharisees, so Peter got up and said circumcision for the Gentiles would be a burden (Jews are circumcised at 8 days old).

            In verse 20 the Elders instructed them to teach the Gentiles that they abstain from pollutions of idols, and from fornication, and from things strangled, and from blood. The elders knew the Gentiles had probably never heard this before, and were guilty of breaking these four laws.
            Now look at verse 21. The Elders didn't speak much about the other laws. It was a "given" that these laws were taught to everyone. It wasn't because they didn't want them taught, but since the Gentiles constantly broke the four (4) the Elders thought it was important for them to learn these immediately.

            And the Elders knew the Gentiles were aware of the other laws because, since the days of Moses, the laws has been preached in every city and read in every synagogues every sabbath day.

            Acts 15:21
            For Moses of old time hath in every city them that preach him, being read in the synagogues every sabbath day.

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            1. profile image51
              paarsurreyposted 12 years agoin reply to this

              A good point.

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              1. profile image0
                Deborah Sextonposted 12 years agoin reply to this

                _____________
                Thank you.

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            2. Disappearinghead profile image61
              Disappearingheadposted 12 years agoin reply to this

              Sorry Deborah but if you wish the Gentiles to obey the law of Moses then you too are guilty of testing God by putting a yoke on the neck of the disciples which neither Peter and the believing jews' fathers or they themselves had the strength to bear - v10.
              So the church in Jerusalem wrote to the Gentiles saying: they had heard they were being troubled by being told to be circumcised AND to KEEP the law - v24; and that the Gentiles should not be burdened with more that the four rules and in so doing they would do well - v28-29.
              Peter is absolutely explicit, they is no need for any interpretation, the Gentiles should not be burdened by either circumcision or the law.
              This is why Yeshia came.

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              1. profile image51
                paarsurreyposted 12 years agoin reply to this

                First Jesus should be explicit. Why did Jesus not mention it in very clear terms that he was sent to all the people of the world? Why did Jesus not proclaim it in so many words and with so many reasons.

                Paul propogated his own religion to the gentiles; he did not spread religion of Jesus.

                Peter had to follow Jesus; Jesus did not need to follow Peter.

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                1. Disappearinghead profile image61
                  Disappearingheadposted 12 years agoin reply to this

                  Jesus stated that he came to the lost sheep of Israel. It was only after the resurrection that He then said go to the whole world.

                  But you don't believe in His words His death or resurrection anyway.

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        2. profile image51
          paarsurreyposted 12 years agoin reply to this

          Paul did oppose teachings of Jesus. Paul was the seed of anti-Christ and the Church anti-christ.

          I agree

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          1. Disappearinghead profile image61
            Disappearingheadposted 12 years agoin reply to this

            You don't like paul because you Islam doesn't believe in personal freedom. As you enslave yourself to the Quranic law you would have infidels be enslaved to another set of laws.

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  11. Jaydeus profile image60
    Jaydeusposted 12 years ago

    The original ''Christians'' were known as the Messianic sect in Jerusalem, not separate from the rest of the Jews and the other various sects that worshiped there.  The Romans took control of the region(almost completely destroying Jerusalem) and the Jews revolted (3 notable rebellions between 66AD-136AD).  After about 200 years of Roman persecution of the Messianic sect, Constantine the Great converted to Christianity, imposed Christian holidays throughout Rome over already indoctrinated pagan worship(Christmas, Easter, the Sunday Sabbath).
    Thus began the separation of of Christianity from Judaism.
    Purely a political thing, as ''true Christians'' still exist in Jerusalem, and still hold to their Hebrew ways.
    Anyone who as read the books of Acts would know there was no change in policy just because the Messiah had come, and no where in the bible does it state the Laws of Moses were ''done away with''.
    Purely political, the sheep always follow the shepherd.

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    1. profile image0
      Deborah Sextonposted 12 years agoin reply to this

      --------------------
      Finally, a person who understands smile

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      1. earnestshub profile image80
        earnestshubposted 12 years agoin reply to this

        I just wanted to say I agree with you both.

        I know that has limited value from a non believer, but I like to find any point of agreement even if it is only about how this history was written. smile

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        1. profile image0
          Deborah Sextonposted 12 years agoin reply to this

          _________________________
          Hello Earnest, it's nice to see you again smile  I've missed you. sad big_smile

          A lot of people on the forums, diss me for the way I interpret things, but you seem to get more disrespect on this forum than anyone because of your non-belief.

          I appreciate your comments. Actually it is more valuable coming from a non believer. Makes me feel honored.



          Well, talk to me again sometime.

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          1. earnestshub profile image80
            earnestshubposted 12 years agoin reply to this

            Ships in the night Deborah, I am still hitting the other religious forums. smile
            Nice to chat. Enjoy your thread, you are well ahead on points, lol

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    2. Disappearinghead profile image61
      Disappearingheadposted 12 years agoin reply to this

      All this is true except you have ignored acts 15.

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    3. profile image0
      Deborah Sextonposted 12 years ago

      Disappearinghead Wrote:
      Sorry Deborah but if you wish the Gentiles to obey the law of Moses then you too are guilty of testing God by putting a yoke on the neck of the disciples which neither Peter and the believing jews' fathers or they themselves had the strength to bear - v10.
      So the church in Jerusalem wrote to the Gentiles saying: they had heard they were being troubled by being told to be circumcised AND to KEEP the law - v24; and that the Gentiles should not be burdened with more that the four rules and in so doing they would do well - v28-29.
      Peter is absolutely explicit, they is no need for any interpretation, the Gentiles should not be burdened by either circumcision or the law.
      This is why Yeshia came.
      __________________________________________________


      The Pharisees mentioned the circumcision and the Laws

      Peter , at first, did not mention the laws, and spoke only of the circumcision.
      Acts 15*****


      Pharisees verse 4 …That it was needful to circumcise them, and to command them to keep the law of Moses.

      Peter verse 7 talks about how he was the one commissioned by God to go to the Gentiles (not Paul)… Peter rose up, and said unto them, Men and brethren, ye know how that a good while ago God made choice among us, that the Gentiles by my mouth should hear the word of the gospel, and believe.

      James 13. James confirms it.

      Simeon Verses 14 & 15. He explained that at FIRST God wanted some of the Gentiles For His name…… "Simeon hath declared how God at the first did visit the Gentiles, to take out of them a people for his name".

      15. " And to this agree the words of the prophets; as it is written"

      God wanted the Gentiles to agree (live by) to what was written in the scriptures. (The meaning of "agree to" in Hebrew is "covenant") That meant doing what was written, the Laws and prophecies.

      " And to this agree the words of the prophets; as it is written"
      Simeon Verse 19. Peter says, but they won't trouble the Gentiles

      What they will do
      Verse 20 He tells them that they will write down those four commandments

      Why are they writing down just four of the lawsVerse 21. Because the Laws of Moses has been around and is taught everywhere often, and the Gentiles already knew these Laws

      There is a feeling of disappointment here, like God wanted the Gentiles at first. But we (the elders) won't trouble them. They were supposed to be taught by Peter..but Paul stole them. The elders aging they won't trouble the the Gentiles does not  exempt/excuse them from the Law. Peter and the other Apostles and elders

      You can't use a few scriptures, you have to study all.


      Remember that Acts was written by Paul's friend, Luke

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      1. profile image52
        kneed2knowposted 12 years agoin reply to this

        Acts  15:1
          Certain men which came down from Judea taught the brethren( new gentile converts) & said " Except ye be circumcised after the manner of MOSES( moses law on circumcision) YOU CANNOT BE SAVE....you can not be saved      .  We all know circumcision does not save you. ..but that was their teaching...That  was why Paul & Barnabas came to Jerusalem about this question....HOW ONE IS SAVED...(Acts15:2)

        But still the sect of Pharisses which believed in this rose up & agreed with (Acts15:1)..
        The apostles/ elders talked this over & after much disputing Peter said,by my mouth the gentiles should hear the gospel  & believe, for GOD  gave them the holy ghost also same as he gave it to us, making no difference between us & them purifying their hearts by FAITH(Acts15:6:9)

        Acts 15:10-11  Why temp GOD with yoke on their necks, which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear...... he is speaking of the Laws in o.t. because the people believed  they earned salvation   by righteousness of works....  but the death & resurrection of Christ has now given the believers in Christ GRACE( the same grace Paul preached ) grace by faith we will all be saved... What.....!!!!! Peter was preaching here.... GRACE..ALSO

        Acts 15: 13 Has James agrees with Peter on GOD choosing the gentiles ... quotes from o.t. scripture

        Acts 15:19 James sentence (LETTER) to gentile ( what they must turn from....what needed to happen first....  to forsake their sins right from the beginning if they were committing their lives to GOD was ..............
        (1)abstain from pollutions of idols,( 2) from fornication , (3) things strangled, (4) & from blood.  These were common practices among the gentile pagans... mainly done in temple worship of their many gods... they had more then one god .

        GODS first commandment.....no  other gods before him   (2) no other graven images or any likeness of anything in heaven etc... nor bow down to them,nor serve them ....GOD loathes this behavior....drinking blood .......fornication with temple preistesses/harlots/ whores,  was accepted by pagans worshippers ,

        This had to happen first,. to forsake this pagan religion . They would learn the rest from the teaching from Moses in the synagogues preached every sabbath day. A
        posltes/elders & church all agreed on this & choose Judas & Silas to go with Paul (THAT FALSE APOSTLE... THAT LIAR ..THAT FALSE TEACHER... TWISTER OF GODS WORD>>>>>> They sent him instead of beating him, tossing him in prison,throwing him out faster then he entered into their council ....... This same Paul with Barnabas they were trusting to take their letters , to the gentiles in Antioch/Syria/&Cilicia...CHOOSEN MEN. who risk their lives for Christ.....(ACTS 15:21-26)   JUDAS & SILAS ALSO CONFORMED THIS LETTER   by mouth at the gathering of  the multituide....(ACTS15:22-33)

        Apostles Paul prove time & time again his devotion & love for GOD the father & our saviour Christ...In the end dying for him.......He kept the o.t .laws & preached the gospel of GOD kingdom.

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        1. profile image0
          Deborah Sextonposted 12 years agoin reply to this

          ______________________________

          Circumcision was not their law, it was God's. Read Exodus.

          James said that faith alone can't save you. After Paul went around teaching his doctrine, the true Apostles had to teach them what was really required.

          James 2:14
          What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?
          17. Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.
          24. Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

          And this is the same James who you think told the Gentiles that there is no reason to keep the law.


          John 5:43
          I am come in my Father's name, and ye receive me not: if another shall come in his own name, him ye will receive.

          Christians say they love and worship who they call Jesus, though that wasn't his name.

          They believe Jesus died to save them. They evem say Jesus is God.

          Yet they believe the teachings of Paul and not his.

          The only time they quote Jesus is when they THINK it backs up what they believe. They always point to Pauls words as what they believe.

          Very sad.

          You need to continue reading acts.

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          1. profile image51
            paarsurreyposted 12 years agoin reply to this
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    4. profile image0
      Deborah Sextonposted 12 years ago

      Yahshua made it clear many times that we are to keep our Father's commandments

      Matthew 19:17
      ..none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments

      Deauteronomy 6:2
      says they are to keep everything God has told them "all the days of their life" and teach them to their son's and their son's sons.


      Paul said the Law was given so every man would become guilty. Paul is the only ONE who ever made this statement in scripture

      Romans 3:19
      Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God

      Paul said the law is a curse
      Galatians 3:10
      For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse:

      John knowing what Paul taught, said
      John 7:49
      But this people who knoweth not the law are cursed

      But the scriptures tell us differently. The Law was given so it might be well with us, for our good

      Reasons the Law was given to us, found in
      Deuteronomy 5:29

      Deuteronomy 6:24

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      1. profile image51
        paarsurreyposted 12 years agoin reply to this

        I agree with the points mentioned in your post which I have numbered.

        Paul made mischievous statements which had nothing to do with the teachings of Moses and/or Jesus. Paul misled the people and the Church followed blindfolded.

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    5. profile image0
      Deborah Sextonposted 12 years ago

      Peter didn't say that there was no difference in the Jews and all Gentiles.

      Peter was speaking of Cornelius and his group. And it was not that they were just naturally the same as the Jews
      It's because God didn't put any difference in them because he knew their hearts


      Acts 15:7-9
      7. Men and brethren, ye know how that a good while ago God made choice among us, that the Gentiles by my mouth should hear the word of the gospel, and believe.

      8. And God, which knoweth the hearts, bare them witness, giving them the Holy Ghost, even as he did unto us;

      9. And put no difference between us and them, purifying their hearts by faith.

      Peter knew the Gentiles that were following Paul had not yet grown to that point.

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      1. profile image52
        kneed2knowposted 12 years agoin reply to this

        In my other posts I never said not to keep GODS laws or that I was saying that James had said this.... I said 1st. the pagans had to turn from idol worship,&  put  GOD first for there is only one GOD. That they would learn the rest from the teachings from Moses in the synagogues preached every sabbath day...

        So what was Paul doctrine he was preaching that was false,
        that the true apostles
        had to reteach on?

        What was really required?

        You quote from James 2:14/17/24/ to backup your point on what you believe....Also you quote from John 5:43.

        While your quotes are true with faith you must have works & a man is justified by his works... his works alone does not save him. He will be judged by his works on the day of judgement, we all will.

        James also says we MUST keep GODS  commandments in (James 2:10) for whosoever shall keep the whole law & yet offended in one point ,he is guilty of all...HE in next verse quotes , for he that says " Do not commit adultery , said also DO not kill. Now if thou committ no adultery , yet if thou kill, thou art become a transgressor of the law./..
        1 John 3:4 says ,sin is a trangression  of GODs law .. NO ONE can keep GODS commandments on their own...They must first believe in Jesus,repent.(have faith)

        In your earlier post...QUOTE  "The only time they quote Jesus is when they think it backs up what they believe. They always point to Pauls words as what they believe...VERY SAD

        Do not you also point to persons of the bible to prove your point ? please explain how what you do is of any difference.?

        You said "Paul said law given so every man would become guilty.
        James says the same thing in these words in (James 2;10-11.) the law was given to let us know what was sin / sinful to GOD so we would not do it & what the sentence was if we broke it. It points out sin..

        You said .. Paul  said the law was a curse. (Gal 3:10) For as many as are under the works of the law  are under the curse "for it is written' cursed is every one that continueth  NOT IN ALL THINGS WHICH ARE WRITTEN IN THE BOOK OF THE LAW TO DO THEM.
        This is the rest of that verse which it seems you left out.

        (GAL3:7-13)  needs to be read to fully understand what Paul is talking about

        GAL 3:7   know ye therefore that they which are of faith ,the same are the children of Abraham. ....THRU FAITH NOT BLOOD<  my quote
        GAL3:8And the scriptures ,foreseeing that  GOD would justify the heathren throught faith,preached before the gospel unto Abraham say, In thee shall all nations be blessed (GOD tested Abrahams faith & obedience to what GOD wanted him to do, sacrific  Isaac .. that he did fear GOD & would walk in all GODS ways( what ever GOD told him to do NO MATTER what GOD told him to do he would obey(GEN22:12 & 18)
        GAL 3:9 SO all they which be of faith are blessed with faithful Abraham.
        GAL 3:11 But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of GOD , it is evident: for the just shall live by faith.
        GAL 3;12 And the law is not of faith but the man that doeth them shall live in them.  NO one can keep the law ( 10 commandments) with out GODS help..........JESUS says this in  (LUKE18: 18-27) about keeping the 10 commandments to the young ruler who told Jesus he had kept them ALL from his youth & then Jesus told hm to sell all he owned & give money to poor & follow him.  the young ruler was very sorrowful for he had much. he was already breaking GODS first commandment. ( Thou shall have no other gods before me) his possessions were more important to him then GODS LAWS. And they that heard it said , Who then can be saved? AND JESUS SAID, The things which are impossible with MEN are possible with GOD. Also read (Luke 10;25) on the lawyer. he said he kept the commanments also but he did not.... In vesus 36 Jesus asked him who was the good neighbour, he said one that showed mercy... & Jesus told him to do the same thing which is saying he was not doing it already in vesus 37....

        Abraham believed in the LORD & he counted it to him for righteousness ( GEN 15:6)    WE all need GOD holy spirit to keep his laws

        replyreport
    6. earnestshub profile image80
      earnestshubposted 12 years ago

      Hi Deborah, I know I've said it before.

      You know your stuff. smile Accurate and concise information. smile

      I am not commenting on beliefs derived, but the accuracy of what you have said according to what was written and stands as logically accurate when studied.
      Even without belief in any of it as divinely inspired it is what it was before it all got bastardized. smile

      replyreport
      1. profile image0
        Deborah Sextonposted 12 years agoin reply to this

        ___________________
        I really appreciate your comments Earnest. I don't think anyone else has made me feel so nice.

        Been thought of as someone who can think correctly, is the nicest compliment anyone could give me.

        Love you Earnest. smile

        replyreport
        1. earnestshub profile image80
          earnestshubposted 12 years agoin reply to this

          You are welcome Deborah, we may disagree on religion, but that is not a good reason for me to deny what you have written is a true account in as much as my studies have shown me.

          Love you too. smile Your knowledge is in my opinion a reliable account of the story.
          I appreciate your logical approach to the debate, even if I don't share your views on religion. smile
          We have had a few moments of strong disagreement, but I find your approach to have been very decent.

          replyreport
    7. profile image0
      Deborah Sextonposted 12 years ago

      I hope that everyone is aware that the law of God is the first five books of the Old Testament. The Law in Hebrew is pronounced "Torah"

      The Torah is not the Commandments. The Law and Commandments are 2 different things. So if you think it is OK to kill, steal, etc..it's not

      Here are some definitions you need to know.

      Covenant in Hebrew is Beriyt and means an agreement that both sides are to keep or NONE have to.

      Law in Hebrew is Torah and means the teachings of God given to his people in love to encourage them and make them strong

      Commandment in Hebrew is Mitsvah and means direction and landmark so we can look to them as a guide.

      replyreport
      1. profile image51
        paarsurreyposted 12 years agoin reply to this

        It is Law ascribed, as told by people, to Moses; it does not consist of the original Word revealed on Moses; of which first five books of the Old Testament are thought to be the core books.

        The complete Law is Word revealed in Quran; it reinstates the original Word revealed on Moses with corrections wherever necessary.

        I express what I sincerely believe with reasons; no disrespect intended to any person; others could belive otherwise; no compulsion.

        replyreport
        1. profile image0
          Deborah Sextonposted 12 years agoin reply to this

          _____________
          The Jewish people have never edited or changed their Torah, Prophets and Writings.
          I use their scripture written in Hebrew and compare it to the English Old Testament.

          The Hebrews never lost the original writings.

          All the Laws and Commandments have been incorporated in the city ordinances.
          The Judges have always had to be versed in the Torah.

          replyreport
    8. profile image51
      paarsurreyposted 12 years ago

      For instance Genesis is not written by Moses or dictated by Moses or written by any person specifically authorised by Moses; it does not matter if it is written in Hebrew.Torah of OT is far superior than the NT; I do believe however

      replyreport
      1. profile image0
        Deborah Sextonposted 12 years agoin reply to this

        ________________
        I know the Torah is. I use the Old Testament to show Christians what is not correct about it.

        replyreport
      2. profile image0
        Deborah Sextonposted 12 years agoin reply to this

        _______________________
        Per historical records Genesis was found in the 2nd cave
        along with all of the Torah and more. They were written in Hebrew.
        In the first cave there was an a Copy of Genesis written in Aramaic.
        Both matched the one the Hebrews have.

        replyreport
    9. profile image0
      Deborah Sextonposted 12 years ago

      Back to this:
      I hope that everyone is aware that the law of God is the first five books of the Old Testament. The Law in Hebrew is pronounced "Torah"

      The Torah is not the Commandments. The Law and Commandments are 2 different things. So if you think it is OK to kill, steal, etc..it's not

      Here are some definitions you need to know.

      Covenant in Hebrew is Beriyt and means an agreement that both sides are to keep or NONE have to.

      Law in Hebrew is Torah and means the teachings of God given to his people in love to encourage them and make them strong

      Commandment in Hebrew is Mitsvah and means direction and landmark so we can look to them as a guide.

      replyreport
    10. Jerami profile image58
      Jeramiposted 12 years ago

      Deborah Sexton wrote ...
         Covenant in Hebrew is Beriyt and means an agreement that both sides are to keep or NONE have to.

      = =  - -  = -

        me    Exactly ,    If God made a covenant with the Hebrew people and the people didn't keep their end of the deal; the covenant can then be severed by God.

         Seems to me that this is what Daniel 9:24 is talking about; A final, last warning;  ...

        "Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people, and upon the holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for inequity, ..."

        This sounds as though God was sending a warning letter to THAT Hebrew Nation to which he had a covenant with. 

        Don't mean to be atguementive just simply expressing that which I have been believing for a long time.

        This written notice to quit sinning had a deadline; 70 weeks.

        Gabriel goes on to say that it will be 69 weeks unto the Messiah the Prince.
        But after only 62 weeks  they  are going to kill the Messiah.

        They kill the Messiah 8 weeks before their deadline.

        After 69 weeks  the Messiah the Prince shall come and confirm "THE" covenant with many (Not all) for one week, for there is but ONE week left of the 70 weeks that THAT Hebrew Nation was given to quit sinning and live according to the covenant.   If they would have done that, the covenant would not have been abolished.
        IF they had done that their Nation would not have been scattered throught out the rest of the world; just 30 years after the sevety weeks were accomplished..

      replyreport
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