You can't play Football with a Hijab

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   secularist10posted 12 years ago

   The Iranian women's football/ soccer team has been forced to forfeit a qualifying match by FIFA. The reason? They were wearing hijabs, covering the hair and neck, which is banned by the organization.
   
   http://sports.yahoo.com/soccer/news;_yl … n-hijabrow
   
   More coverage--see the picture here:
   
   http://sports.yahoo.com/olympics/blog/f … =oly-wp280
   
   It is odd that so many Muslim women seem to think they can participate in modern life as modern women, whilst weighed down by baggage that was created specifically BY and FOR a time when women could not have these freedoms.
   
   Religious traditions that were created by backward people in backward times and places simply cannot last in the modern world. You just can't fit a round peg in a square hole.

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   Emile Rposted 12 years ago

   I don't know what to think of this. I have an aversion to the hijab, but I sympathize with those girls on this one. The rules of soccer prohibit hand contact and I can't imagine how the extra clothing would be a danger to the player; so, I'm not at all sure why safety regulations would need to prohibit the extra clothing.
   
   I don't play soccer, so maybe there's something I'm missing on this, but as it stands it looks like bureaucratic bs to me.

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      Evolution Guyposted 12 years agoin reply to this

      Yes there is something you are missing. Any one who plays a contact sport with a loose scarf tied around their neck is insane and asking to break their neck. Plus - it is dangerous to the opposing players.

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         Emile Rposted 12 years agoin reply to this

         Well, I don't see loose scarves in the photo. How could their necks get broken? How is a scarf a danger to other players? I thought this was not a full contact sport. I'm sitting here running a soccer game through my head and, I don't see hands grabbing other players or an obstacle course with hooks. What could a scarf like the ones they are wearing become entangled in?
         
         It is possible that the round peg in the square hole statement nudged me into support of the girls. Different should be accommodated, when possible.

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            Evolution Guyposted 12 years agoin reply to this

            So - you admit you have never played football and are now arguing your case. Yes - the scarf could get caught on some one as they ran past you or tackled you. Don't you think?
            
            It was not banned for religious reasons. It is part of the rules of the game. This is soccer if you have never seen it:
            
            

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               Emile Rposted 12 years agoin reply to this

               Not the best picture in support of your argument, but I will bow to your opinion on this one. It isn't difficult to imagine that you might have seen a few more soccer games than I have.

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                  Evolution Guyposted 12 years agoin reply to this

                  No - two men running full speed and blocking each other like that is probably not the best picture. Not mush chance of  a scarf getting grabbed accidentally at all.
                  
                  Yes - it is a contact sport. Head gear such as scarves and this ridiculous religion thing along with neck wear like chains and other jewelry are also banned.
                  
                  Personally - I would have made them sign a waiver and let them wear them. "Evolution in action,"  we call that.

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                     Emile Rposted 12 years agoin reply to this

                     I just won five dollars. I gave you the benefit of the doubt, and bet someone you would be unable to fight the compulsion to come back with a less than courteous response. I've pegged the behavior patterns of the different religious types on this site quite well.  Candy from a baby.

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                        Evolution Guyposted 12 years agoin reply to this

                        Of course you got a contentious response. You deliberately provoked me by clearly stating something to get that response. That is what you religious people do. Then you could claim the moral high ground.
                        
                        I had a bet on with myself that you could not accept what I said without disparaging the information I provided in some way.

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                           Emile Rposted 12 years agoin reply to this

                           Yes, but there is no financial gain in a bet with yourself. I'm buying a latte with my winnings. There's no morality in caffeine, so I'm not sure it's a religious experience.
                           
                           But, that's the way it goes; the far ends of the spectrum see God in everything. The rest of us usually sip our coffee and watch the show.

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                              Evolution Guyposted 12 years agoin reply to this

                              Good for you. Couldn't resist the high ground could you?
                              
                              So predictable - I won again.

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                                 Emile Rposted 12 years agoin reply to this

                                 Any more posts and we'll be in jeopardy of hijacking a thread. I will take the high ground at this moment and let you retain your belief that you've made the point you think you did.

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      Beelzedadposted 12 years agoin reply to this

      Sikhs here lobbied to the government so they wouldn't have to wear helmets when riding motorcycles, which is a law. They won, and now they are allowed to ride them wearing their turbans only. Of course, head injuries and deaths amongst them increased dramatically. They got what they wanted and are "living" with their decision, or dying, depending how you look at it.
      
      Where is the bs in that?

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         GoingOnlineposted 12 years agoin reply to this

         I think the problem is that a guy dying on a motorbike accident for not wearing a helmet is bad, but there won't be many looking at it and probably it won't be the fault of anybody else but him.
         
         A girl having her neck broken on a football match, on TV, by another player who is going to feel guilty as hell is quite more impressing and probably more disruptive (because unlike the case above nobody is going to say "it's his fault for being an idiot without a helmet. He brought it on himself.")
         
         I'm not sure what's the problem, if the rules say "Wear a uniform without covering your head or wearing pointy jewelry" either follow or don't play.

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         Emile Rposted 12 years agoin reply to this

         We argue about things like that all the time here. There are a lot of motorcycle riders that don't want to wear a helmet. No religion, just sheer madness. I don't know what I think of it.
         
         But the hijab question is another thing entirely. I would think there would be a way around this so that the girls could comfortably participate; without endangering themselves and others.

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            Evolution Guyposted 12 years agoin reply to this

            You would think, wouldn't you? Can we let them wear pointy jewelry too? I mean - there must be a way to change the rules so that it is OK for religious women to endanger other people so they can do what god wants and cover their disgusting necks up.
            
            The difference is - a motorcycle rider is endangering himself by not wearing a helmet. Wearing silly clothing or heavy gold chains or whatever endangers other people. That is why it is banned, and has been for a long time - well before this nonsense.
            
            You would want the law changed to endanger others? How odd. That is the problem with religious people. They have no regard for others.

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               Emile Rposted 12 years agoin reply to this

               Again with seeing God everywhere. What is it with you? Ramadan?
               
               I realize you are right as to whether or not there should be scarves on the playing field. I don't know how much negotiation went into this. But I'm sure the girls worked hard to get to that point. It is simply sad that some compromise could not be reached.

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                  Beelzedadposted 12 years agoin reply to this

                  Aren't you talking about two different things here?
                  
                  1. Working hard to be the very best female soccer players in Iran.
                  
                  2. Compromising the safety of others to practice a religion.
                  
                  Go from there.

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                  secularist10posted 12 years agoin reply to this

                  Actually, Emile, the article indicated that some compromise was attempted--I think it mentioned Iran's youth Olympics team wearing some kind of hat that provided partial coverage, and that was approved. The Iranian soccer heads simply chose to ignore a number of warnings from FIFA, for whatever reason.
                  
                  And what nobody is remembering is that the FIFA rules also prohibit clothing that makes a religious statement. Which makes sense to me--why bring in divisive self-righteous agendas into an event that's supposed to be about peace and fun?

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                     Beelzedadposted 12 years agoin reply to this

                     Sure, next thing you know, Sihks will want to wear their swords and Vodou's will want to sacrifice a chicken and smear the blood all over their opponents bodies.
                     
                     Where does it end?

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                  Evolution Guyposted 12 years agoin reply to this

                  So - this is not a religious thing then?
                  
                  The hijab is not religious?
                  
                  What compromise are you suggesting? I agree it is a shame these religious girls cannot endanger their own lives and the lives of others because of some superstition. What a horrible world we live in. Very, very sad that they cannot do this. Must have been a huge surprise to learn they had to follow rules like everyone else. Shocking they cannot do what Allah wants. Persecution? I expect you think so. Prbably FIFA hates Allah, I suppose.

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                     GoingOnlineposted 12 years agoin reply to this

                     There's a thing though. Those girls are doing something that is probably making the extremist  religious zealots on their country want to kill them. I mean, they are playing a SPORT instead of being locked at home being a good woman. They are getting valued for themselves and their skills, instead of by who are they married to (or who can they be married to by their families).
                     
                     So it would be great if some compromise could be reached, since at least it's some progress from "live under a tent of cloth if you aren't inside the walls of your home". Like a really tight face mask thingy that covered the hair or something like that. Like a swimming cap maybe? (and I know they'd look ridiculous).

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                     Emile Rposted 12 years agoin reply to this

                     You go out of your way to be difficult it appears. These are young girls caught in between politics and a hard place. This lack of sympathy for their plight is difficult to follow.
                     
                     I doubt these girls could care less about the hijab. Who in the world would want to play a sport that strenuous covered from head to toe? I don't know whether you've noticed or not, but their society doesn't allow options.
                     
                     They are kids that want to play a sport. This shouldn't be about religion or politics. I grow tired of the refusal of parties to sit down and find a common ground they can work from, but when the dreams of children suffer because of it I find it even more maddening.

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                        Beelzedadposted 12 years agoin reply to this

                        Nonsense, they are caught in their own religious beliefs, this has nothing to do with politics.
                        
                        
                        
                        Ah, did you actually read what you just wrote there?
                        
                        
                        
                        You mean, the religious beliefs make the children suffer because the belief is far more important then their dreams of playing sports.

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                           Emile Rposted 12 years agoin reply to this

                           If we were talking about a soccer team from France, I would agree.  But these girls are Iranian.  If you don't think Ahmadinejad had some say in this, you are naive. And this incident will be played up well by him.
                           
                           And yes, I read what I wrote. These girls have no option but to do as they are told.  Yes, religion runs their society, but you are purposely ignoring the bigger picture. 
                           
                           I find it sad that you and Evolution Guy are so obsessed with the topic of religion that you can't set that aside for one moment and try to imagine what is the right thing to do for the children involved. Religion is not going to be beaten down by not letting a few girls play a game of soccer.  They won't look back and say 'Darn, if I just hadn't been Muslim I might have won a medal.'  This incident will reinforce in their minds the evil of the West. It will be with them forever. Is the moral high ground worth that to you?

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                              Beelzedadposted 12 years agoin reply to this

                              Of course, and he will push his Islamic agenda, a "religious" agenda, which is what he does with everything else. He will make religious beliefs trump reality.
                              
                              
                              
                               
                              
                              
                              
                              You appear to have totally forgotten what you just said:
                              
                              "These girls have no option but to do as they are told.  Yes, religion runs their society..."
                              
                              The right thing to do for the children involved is not to have religion run their lives so they have options.
                              
                              
                              
                              Perhaps, it will either get them to think about their religious beliefs to see if their indoctrination is more important then their own lives, or they will solidify their indoctrination further and perhaps take up suicide bombing, instead.
                              
                              Moral high ground, indeed.

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                                 Emile Rposted 12 years agoin reply to this

                                 Don't you even worry about the kids? Do you honestly think not letting them play a game will make them question their faith? What if it did? Then all they have to look forward to is religious persecution. Your opinion won't change a thing in Iran. All it does is make us appear intractable.

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                                    Evolution Guyposted 12 years agoin reply to this

                                    AWW - So not giving into a religious agenda that endangers people and promotes division is "intractable"?

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                                       Emile Rposted 12 years agoin reply to this

                                       I don't know. I'm sure the Olympic Committee had a more compassionate argument than yours that was a whole lot less intractable.

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                                          Beelzedadposted 12 years agoin reply to this

                                          You talk about compassion, yet you ignore the fact that there is no compassion with Iran's Islamic agenda, no options, you must do as Allah commands. Get real.

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                                             Emile Rposted 12 years agoin reply to this

                                             I am as real as you are. This is why it is so difficult to find solutions to even the simplest of questions. This should not have been an insurmountable problem.

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                                    Beelzedadposted 12 years agoin reply to this

                                    Are you talking about their religious indoctrination, the fact that they have to do what Islam tells them to do and the fact they have no options whatsoever?
                                    
                                    
                                    
                                    Seriously, do you read what your write? You just answered your own question.
                                    
                                    
                                    
                                    Oh yes, WE are the ones who are the bad guys. Nothing we say will ever change a thing in Iran. 

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                        Evolution Guyposted 12 years agoin reply to this

                        Aww. I'm sorry. I must have missed your suggestion of exactly how to compromise rules that prohibit the wearing of dangerous clothing or promoting a religious agenda in order tto pander to a religious agenda.
                        
                        Please - go ahead.
                        
                        I feel sorry for the girls as well. Thank goodness they got a dose of modern reality huh? Keep religion out of sport please.
                        
                        The hijab is not religious?

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                           Emile Rposted 12 years agoin reply to this

                           See my response to Beelzedad.  That goes for you too.  Enjoy the high ground.  I consider this type of attitude a detriment in the attempt to peacefully work with our neighbors on questions that really aren't as important in the long run as you politicians think.

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                              Beelzedadposted 12 years agoin reply to this

                              That would mean you don't think this type of attitude is a detriment:
                              
                              "These girls have no option but to do as they are told.  Yes, religion runs their society..."
                              
                              You really do contradict yourself form one post to the next.
                              
                              

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                                 Emile Rposted 12 years agoin reply to this

                                 It is not a contradiction. They have no options. They are kids. The Iranian coaches and the Olympic Committee don't need to act like kidsThey should have worked harder for a solution. This is a line in the sand that does nothing but hurt those girls.

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                              Evolution Guyposted 12 years agoin reply to this

                              Sorry. Once again I seem to have missed where you proposed a compromise that allowed a religious agenda to endanger livesand force rules to be changed to favor religious superstitions.
                              
                              Please - feel free.
                              
                              As I mentioned - I feel sorry for these indoctrinated children as well. Better they learn now that the educated world no longer puts up with religious claptrap that endangers lives than later.
                              
                              What is your point again? Just want to fight huh? There is a good religionist.

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                                 Emile Rposted 12 years agoin reply to this

                                 That is probably why we aren't communicating. You see religion. I see kids and politics. Get your head out of the clouds. Just because you want to see God doesn't mean he exists.
                                 
                                 You guys are ganging up on me and I'm not sure why. They ruled exactly the way you would have. With no thought about those poor girls' dreams. You won already.

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                                    Evolution Guyposted 12 years agoin reply to this

                                    Sorry - I am still missing this compromise you are saying is there. And - of course I see you on the moral "surely there must be a way to allow these girls to endanger lives for Allah" ground.

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                                       Emile Rposted 12 years agoin reply to this

                                       Uncle.

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                                    Beelzedadposted 12 years agoin reply to this

                                    You are contradicting yourself with every post, which others are trying to point out to you, no one is ganging up.
                                    
                                    
                                    
                                    And yet again, you completely ignored your own words:
                                    
                                    "These girls have no option but to do as they are told.  Yes, religion runs their society..."
                                    
                                    What does that have anything to do with what we think?

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   earnestshubposted 12 years ago

   Ya caint rollerskate in a buffalo herd neither.

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   thisisoliposted 12 years ago

   I think it is kind of funny that politicians spend so much time talking about how the muslim women need ot be freed, but if they want to wear an article of clothing we tell them that they can't, despite the cultural significance associated with it.

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   jacharlessposted 12 years ago

   Sports entertainment has gone Secular, really? No...really?
   Sad that they achieved that level of play, only to be dismissed at the very apex of it.
   
   Aren't sports supposed to be unbiased and unifying?
   I do not see how that occurred in this particular instance.
   
   Granted, precautions should be taken for the safety of the players, male or female. From the looks of it, the hijab was only a little loose. Why not make it more like a fencing bib? Second, they allowed them to play up to that point with the hijab on, why at the very climax did they 'enforce' this rule?
   
   James.

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      Emile Rposted 12 years agoin reply to this

      Excellent points.

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      secularist10posted 12 years agoin reply to this

      No, apparently FIFA banned the hijab and similar neck-covering items in 2007. The Iranian team was forced to forfeit a qualifying match, which (I assume--I'm not an expert on the sport) means that this is the first time this team has played against another country, monitored by the international organization, as opposed to playing other teams inside Iran.

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   Greek Oneposted 12 years ago

   hold on a second, since when did we decide it was OK for woman to play sports!?!?

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      jacharlessposted 12 years agoin reply to this

      G.O.
      watching woman play sports is very relaxing, especially tennis.
      James.

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