The comparative lethality of world religions past and present.

1. 60

   peterxdunnposted 12 years ago

   Out of all the World's religion's past and present - which has proven itself to be the most lethal? Which has killed the most people?
   
   For insatnce. In the first Christian War of AD 115: which began in Cyrene (present day Turkey), it is known that the Christians killed hundreds-of-thousands of people in the most appalling, brutally sadistic fashion. So great was the slaughter that the emperor Trajan had to force people to move back into the areas depopulated by the murderous Christian onslaught which spared nobody; not even children and babes in arms.
   
   Has this dark tale - from a past many would rather choose to forget - ever been surpassed?
   
   All comments welcome.

   replyreport
   1. 73

      Quilligrapherposted 12 years agoin reply to this

      Hi there, Mr Dunn. Thank you for suggesting such an interesting idea.
      
      I always find it interesting that different people interpret history differently.  Take, for example, the rebellion you label “the first Christian War of AD 115: which began in Cyrene (present day Turkey).” It was actually, in hebrew, ha'galuyot or mered ha'tfutzot (מרד התפוצות), which translates to Rebellion of the Exile.  In most historical accounts, it is the Kitos war, the name given to the second of the Jewish-Roman wars. The conflict was between the Roman Empire, practicing polytheistic paganism, and the Jewish tribes of Cyprus, Cyrene, Egypt, Mesopotamia and Judea.
      
      In the Roman Empire, prior to 311 AD, Christians and Jews were subject to persecution, torture and death if they would not worship the emperor. To identify the invading Romans as “Christians” and the rebellion in Cyrenaica as a “Christian War” is to grossly distort history.
      
      To borrow from Wikipedia, “In 115 the emperor Trajan was in command of the eastern campaign against the Parthian Empire. The Roman invasion had been prompted by the imposition of a pro-Parthian king on the throne of Armenia after a Parthian invasion of that land. This encroachment on the traditional sphere of influence of the Roman Empire — the two empires had shared hegemony over Armenia since the time of Nero some 50 years earlier — could only lead to war.”
      
      There is so much that we can learn from history. I’ve learned that wars and atrocities are not caused by religions but by men. Men who use religions and their texts to justify and advance their personal agendas.  For this reason, I see no evil in any religion, only in the men who wish to corrupt religious principles to achieve power.
      
      Again, Mr. Dunn, my thanks for your thought provoking post.

      replyreport
      1. 60

         peterxdunnposted 12 years agoin reply to this

         I am aware that this war goes by different names - I'm not unfamiliar with wikipedia either - I used the name 'Christian War' to provoke a response from Christians.
         
         I believe that this is also the war that St John the Diviner (he was an astrologer; all the signs are there) calls for in Revelation.
         
         By the way - religion is not just 'used' by men to further their own agendas - but was also invented by men to further own agendas.

         replyreport
         1. 0

            Emile Rposted 12 years agoin reply to this

            I'm surprised you would so blatantly admit the purpose of your statement was simply to provoke. That's what I've found difficult to understand about the far ends. 1/32 truths combined with innuendo always makes me wonder.
            
            You do realize that statements such as your OP have a lot in common with religion?

            replyreport
         2. 73

            Quilligrapherposted 12 years agoin reply to this

            Thank you, Mr. Dunn, for your prompt and candid reply.
            
            I am truly amazed by your admission. To deliberately make up the name “Christian War” to provoke and to justify preconceived notions about the benefits of religion in societies is to intentionally distort history to foster personal views. This is simply a malicious attempt to poison the well of knowledge.   It is not an admirable act.
            
            With all due respect, Mr. Dunn, your admitting to consciously distorting history to make a point renders your interpretation of historical events both suspect and incredible.
            
            I sincerely respect your views, Mr. Dunn, because I know you truly believe your conclusions are justified.

            replyreport
            1. 60

               peterxdunnposted 12 years agoin reply to this

               I didn't make up the name - I came across it in several places - including Wikipedia when I was researching material relating to the Book of Revelation. This is the war sought by St John against Rome although it killed more Greek settlers than it did Romans.

               replyreport
               1. 73

                  Quilligrapherposted 12 years agoin reply to this

                  I’m very happy to read this, Mr. Dunn.  I would greatly appreciate your sharing a link to a Wikipedia article that claims the Roman invasion of Cyrene in 115 AD was “the first Christian War of AD 115.” I would find it an interesting read. I am looking forward to your post. Thank you in advance.

                  replyreport
      2. 60

         TMMasonposted 12 years agoin reply to this

         Thank you, Quill.
         
         
         
         
         @Dunn...
         
         If we are going to talk ideologies, why not include them all?
         
         Marx' demented children have slaughtered tens of millions in their time on this earth, and if we simply include any atheistic/centralized authority belief system as ranking with them, then there are millions more to be tallied in.
         
         Why short the conversation?

         replyreport
         1. 60

            peterxdunnposted 12 years agoin reply to this

            By all means include them all. But - if you are going to include communism you should be aware of the fact that the rise to power of the communists: in Russia, could not have been achieved without the massive injections of capital - that Lenin et al received - from American banks. The money was provided because Tsar Nicolas Romanof  (iffy spelling) wouldn't allow the international banking cartel access to the Russion economy.
            
            Hitler's rise to power was, likewise, funded by the Federal Reserve. Check it out.

            replyreport
            1. 0

               Emile Rposted 12 years agoin reply to this

               You attempt to paint religion as bloody for religion's sake; ignoring any additional causes for the violence; yet when someone points out that other ideologies have caused death and bloodshed you immediately attempt to rationalize how it was not ultimately that ideology at fault. Sounds vaguely like the apologetics heard from the other side of the debate.

               replyreport
               1. 60

                  peterxdunnposted 12 years agoin reply to this

                  You are quite right. I do 'paint religion' in a bad and bloody way. That is because I see it in a bad and bloody way. The picture that christians put across: that their religion is all about love and understanding, is totally at odds with reality. Religion is not always the cause for wars - but its a handy way of turning people against each other by people that profit from war.  I hate all kinds of ideology - including communism and capitalism. It is the capitalists who want war in the middle east and they are exploiting religious differences to get it going.

                  replyreport
                  1. 0

                     Emile Rposted 12 years agoin reply to this

                     Ahhh. The evil capitalists. I believe they were the culprits in your previous post also.
                     
                     History has proven that it is human nature  for the powers that be to turn a blind eye to the higher aspirations of any ideology and then lie, cheat, murder and steal while in control. It's proven that power corrupts all but the pathetically few.
                     
                     None remain untainted. Human nature at the very top is the greatest enemy to peace and prosperity; as is human nature at the very bottom. It's always been up to the vast majority of those of us in the middle to  keep our eyes open and jealously protect the dream others would deny us of.
                     
                     I see no reason to believe any moment in history has deviated far from this assessment for long; without producing a measure of bloodshed.

                     replyreport
                     1. 60

                        peterxdunnposted 12 years agoin reply to this

                        The capitialists: those that seek to amass wealth and power, have been the 'culprits' since religion was invented in Sumeria 6,000 years ago.

                        replyreport
                        1. 0

                           Emile Rposted 12 years agoin reply to this

                           I agree. But capitalism, at this moment in history, stands inexorably tied to democracy. Which gives us the means by which to be the first to find whatever the delicate balance is between personal freedom and global social responsibility. It's a tricky business, but I think the more compassionate people in the free world are beginning to understand that the behemoth we have allowed to exist unchecked is in jeopardy of spiraling out of control. I think, instead of railing about religion and politics; our primary enemies are, first and foremost, the powers that control both.

                           replyreport
                           1. 60

                              peterxdunnposted 12 years agoin reply to this

                              I agree with your overall sentiment here - Emile R - but I disagree with your interpretation about capitalism being tied to democracy. For me democracy is an illusion. Take - for instance - the Republicans and Democrats in America. People think that choosing one or the other will lead to different out comes. It doesn't: the differences between the two are merely cosmetic and only concern issues that are unimportant to the banks and big corporations. When it comes to the big issues, those that really matter: such as controlling the World's oil reserves, the policies of both parties are the same. I liken the different political parties to different 'brands' of washing powder: you think you are being given a choice when - in fact - all those different brands are actually made by the same company.

                              replyreport
                              1. 0

                                 Emile Rposted 12 years agoin reply to this

                                 Democracy is an illusion because we allow it to be. We are complacent because we are fat, dumb and happy. All we have to do to change the way we do business is change the way we do business. We have the power. You are right that there is little difference between the end goals of the two parties, but that is because the same entities control both., If we the people would simply set our surface differences aside, open our eyes and take back control we could make the changes needed.
                                 
                                 The right to rule the decisions made by our government need to be taken out of the hands of corporations. The majority knows this. I think, we fear tinkering with a system because we don't know what we will end up with, but it's past the time to throw caution to the wind and do what we know is right.

                                 replyreport
                                 1. 60

                                    peterxdunnposted 12 years agoin reply to this

                                    I totally agree with everything you say here. It is now time to take back the power usurped by the banks and their political front men.
                                    
                                    What we need is direct democracy constituted under one set of laws: Universal Human Rights. What people really need to understand is that: to have power, means to exercise power. Power must not be delegated to any political party.
                                    
                                    We can use computers: to which all have access, to set up a rolling process of onging consultation. From these consultations we can then formulate policies. The policies are then enacted by civil servants/administrators. If the policies aren't adhered to by the administrators - we simply sack them.
                                    
                                    For this to be successful we would also need national banks with the monopoly power to issue currency. The value of that debt free currency - and the amount in circulation - would be controlled for the benefit of the nation: not just a few wealthy bankers.
                                    
                                    And we would, of course, also need media companies with a legal obligation to: at all times, tell the truth.
                                    
                                    This would represent real freedom.

                                    replyreport
                                    1. 0

                                       Emile Rposted 12 years agoin reply to this

                                       Sounds like a reasonable plan.

                                       report
                           2. 73

                              Quilligrapherposted 12 years agoin reply to this

                              Very well said, Ms. R..  Bravo.

                              replyreport
      3. 60

         peterxdunnposted 12 years agoin reply to this

         Quilligrapher? Who is identifying the 'invading Romans' as Christians? Certainly not me. Who is distorting what here? The purpose of the War of the Exiles: that is sometimes referred to as the 'First Christian War' was to attack the Roman Empire - indentified as the 'Whore of Babylon' in Revelation.
         
         If you are going to have a go at me please do it on the basis of what I actually say. Not on some skewed misinterpretation of what you think I said.

         replyreport
   2. 60

      paradigmsearchposted 12 years agoin reply to this

      If Islam doesn't get around to cleaning up their religion as the others have, it is possible that they will take the new top spot within 30 years.

      replyreport
2. 81

   earnestshubposted 12 years ago

   Well leaving actual wars out of it, the biblical god claims to have wiped out everything and everyone bar a handful of the entire population of earth once, and numerous entire countries on other occasions.
   
   This is because he "loves" US APPARENTLY. :LOL:.

   replyreport
3. 0

   Emile Rposted 12 years ago

   Well, the way I see it;
   
   Before monotheism rose to prominence...man made war and it was bloody.
   
   When monotheism ruled Europe....man made war and it was as bloody as before.
   
   When governments became secular....man made war and it was even bloodier.
   
   I think....men make war.

   replyreport
   1. 60

      TMMasonposted 12 years agoin reply to this

      That is pretty much the truth of it there, Emile.
      
      Hope you are well today?

      replyreport
      1. 0

         Emile Rposted 12 years agoin reply to this

         I'm good.. Hope you are also. I suppose I should apologize to the OP for laughing, but these inane and provocative threads are beginning to be akin to watching paint peel. I'd love to see something worthy of conversation.

         replyreport
         1. 60

            TMMasonposted 12 years agoin reply to this

            I am good, thank you.
            
            And no... if your going to post a bait thread and then admit to it... you should probrably be ready to be snickereed at.

            replyreport
4. 70

   Cagsilposted 12 years ago

   What difference does it make? Religion is dangerous, regardless of whether or not, it creates wars or death.
   
   Why? Because it manipulates individuals, ruins society's overall wealth production, ruins society's overall health and is a detriment to growth.
   
   Nothing more needs to be said.

   replyreport
   1. 73

      Quilligrapherposted 12 years agoin reply to this

      Howdy Cag.  Long time no see.
      
      Your terse comment is very powerful, particularly your last sentence. Since Cagsil pronounces it is so therefore it must be so. However, some people might not agree with your sweeping declarations and might even be a little curious about how you arrived at such rigid conclusions. If they are use to thinking for themselves, they might also believe there is a lot more that needs to be said even though you may not think so. I’m am not a particularly religious person so I don’t feel particularly threatened by blustery anti-religion accusations.
      
      Many of life’s institutions manipulate individuals such as advertising, television, news media, peer pressure, laws, parents, teachers, and matrimony. You must, therefore, believe they too should be considered individually and/or collectively dangerous and undeserving a place in your world. If you don’t believe this then your very first explanation is false.
           
      Your second explanation is challenged by a study conducted by Ohio State University that was partially funded by the American Sociological Association. (http://researchnews.osu.edu/archive/relgwlth.htm) Researcher Lisa Keister found religion helps shape the wealth of Americans. But it wasn’t just religious affiliation itself that had an impact on wealth accumulation. On the positive side, the study found that people who regularly attended religious services tended to be wealthier. “People who attend religious services regularly build more wealth than those who don’t,” the study found. Ms. Keister  “emphasized that religion is only one among many factors that influence wealth. This research is part of a larger series of studies to explain why some people accumulate more wealth than others. She said that once she began studying wealth, the impact of religion stood out plainly.” On the negative side churchgoers who emphasize prayer and trust in God, tend to have less desire to invest. Those who also look forward to the rewards of an afterlife often don’t acquire wealth in this life. This segment of society doesn’t want any more wealth then is needed to survive.   
      
      Religion, contrary to your pronouncements, has been found to benefit overall health, Cag, and having an internal or intrinsic spiritual orientation has been associated with decreased stress-related medical symptoms, regardless of whether formal religious affiliation is present (Kass JD. Contributions of religious experience to psychological and physical well-being: research evidence and explanatory model. Care Giver Journal 1991;8:4-11.) Perhaps you can provide some medical evidence demonstrating how religion ruins society's overall health.
      
      I’m sure you really believe that religion is a detriment to growth but have you ever seen a cleric who weighs more than 250 pounds.  If you did, you would see that religious beliefs are not detrimental to growth.
      
      My lousy humor aside, the gist of my comments, Cag, is you are truly off the mark if you really believe your statements leave nothing more to be said.  In fact, they beg for an explanation if only to shed their pompous, presumptive, arrogant tone.
      I’m sincerely interested in learning from you, Cag. But, please don’t tell this forum what to believe. Rather, tell us what you think and why. We will decide for ourselves what we should think. I’m looking forward to reading your insights and I’m hoping they go beyond your own life experiences.
      
      I hope you are having a great day, Cag. If you are, keep it up!

      replyreport
      1. 60

         TMMasonposted 12 years agoin reply to this

         Who are you!?
         
         What'd you do with Quill!?
         
         Is this really you Quill?

         replyreport
         1. 73

            Quilligrapherposted 12 years agoin reply to this

            Hi Tom,
            
            I regret to say I'm missing your point.

            replyreport
            1. 60

               TMMasonposted 12 years agoin reply to this

               It just caught me off guard that you argued so beautifully in defense of us Christians/Chistianity against that twisting of history.
               
               Thank you.
               
               I do believe I have had you all wrong Q... you have more intellectual integrity that anyone else I know of on here.
               
               Thank you for that.

               replyreport
5. 81

   earnestshubposted 12 years ago

   Let's pray about it.
   
   
   
   
   
   
   It's the christian thing to do!
   
   How are the children you are praying for doing? Oh yeah! Your not praying for them are you?

   replyreport
   1. 81

      earnestshubposted 12 years agoin reply to this

      Remember to pray for the children, not your car keys! I'm off to a peaceful sleep.

      replyreport
6. 73

   Quilligrapherposted 12 years ago

   @TMMason
   
   And I thank you for your kind words.

   replyreport
   1. 60

      TMMasonposted 12 years agoin reply to this

      No problem at all, Quill.
      
      They are most deserved.

      replyreport
7. 60

   TMMasonposted 12 years ago

   Moa killed 70 million, Stalin killed 40+ million, Hitler killed 20 million and WWII killed approx 50 million, Pol Pot killed millions, and all the rest of the demented Marxians slayed people by the ten of millions... all within one century.
   
   Now imagine 2000 years of Stalin, Moa, Pol Pot and Hitler... and all the rest of the demented Leftists, all added together.
   
   
   Mind-boggling.

   replyreport
   1. 60

      peterxdunnposted 12 years agoin reply to this

      I'll have to check your figures - but if you are right then the CIA's resposibility for 6 million deaths prior to 1978 does seem pretty much small beads after all.

      replyreport
8. 60

   TMMasonposted 12 years ago

   America is not a Democracy... and we do not want to be a Democracy.
   
   We are a Constitutional Republic, and God bless us for that.
   
   Democracy is mob rule and all Democracies have failed miserably. The worst thing America has done in its time on this earth is to push Democracy around the world. We have poisoned so many with that BS that i doubt we could ever chage the nightmare we have created.
   
   "A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only exist until the voters discover that they can vote themselves largesse from the public treasury. From that moment on, the majority always votes for the candidates promising the most benefits from the public treasury with the result that a democracy always collapses over loose fiscal policy, always followed by a dictatorship. The average age of the world's greatest civilizations has been 200 years.
   
   Great nations rise and fall. The people go from bondage to spiritual truth, to great courage, from courage to liberty, from liberty to abundance, from abundance to selfishness, from selfishness to complacency, from complacency to apathy, from apathy to dependence, from dependence back again to bondage."
   
   Welcome to the future of America...

   replyreport
   1. 0

      Emile Rposted 12 years agoin reply to this

      We are already in bondage Mr. Mason. I fail to understand why no one can see this. We are slaves to the credit system that our government purposely helped set in place. To drive capitalism.
      
      They hold a carrot on a stick that makes the right fight any reform. Trying to convince you that to put a fair and reasonable checks and balance system on the way these international corporations do business will somehow inhibit your quest for wealth. People allow themselves to be manipulated by the lies. They let their emotions stop them from thinking. You are already in bondage to powers that are outside of our ability to vote in or out.
      
      As long as there are people who will turn a blind eye to the injustices created in the world because of this system, the selfish disregard for our fellow man will continue.

      replyreport
      1. 60

         TMMasonposted 12 years agoin reply to this

         You do not have to convince me to toss the current system, Emile. I am all for abolishing the fed... no arguments with me about it at all... I would go back to the gold standard.
         
         Nope no arguments here... most Conservativbes I know do not like or agree with the system in place now.
         
         So?...
         
         Doesn't mean we want to be Marxists though.

         replyreport
         1. 0

            Emile Rposted 12 years agoin reply to this

            No one looks to Marxism as their model Mr. Mason. But, it is comments such as that one that stand in the way of the American people finding solutions. Your irrational fears that the left are socialists and communists keep you from seeing that we probably have a lot in common. My irrational fear is that the right has a callous disregard for humanity. This keeps me from trusting you.
            
            I think, there are those who do everything possible to make us see each other in the worst light possible so that we will never find the power to change the system.

            replyreport
            1. 60

               TMMasonposted 12 years agoin reply to this

               You do live in America, Emile, don't you?
               
               You do see the Marxist in the white house, don't you?

               replyreport
               1. 0

                  Emile Rposted 12 years agoin reply to this

                  You are incorrigible Mr. Mason. I'm afraid you will have to accept the fact that many people have myriad influences to their philosophy. I don't think he's Marxist, but he is probably left of where I feel comfortable; on some issues.

                  replyreport
                  1. 60

                     TMMasonposted 12 years agoin reply to this

                     

                     replyreport
   2. 60

      peterxdunnposted 12 years agoin reply to this

      America is not a democracy? Then why are your soldiers fighting and dying: as well as killing people wholesale, to bring 'democracy' to Afghanistan and Iraq?
      
      By the way, a gathering of tribal elders (yesterday): in Iraq, have said that they want all American troops out by the end of this year. If your troops are pulled out and the Iraqis go back to selling their oil for Euros instead of dollars then all your troops overseas will have to brought home - because, as the dollar implodes on the world financial markets, you will not be able to support your military bases.

      replyreport
      1. 60

         TMMasonposted 12 years agoin reply to this

         Did not you read where I stated I have no love, or understanding at all, as to why America is pushing the poisin of Demoicray around the world.
         
         But the American Left and Progressives, through the US State Dept have been fk'n off, using the CIA, to bring their Democracy around the world for 9 decades now.
         
         It is the same BS line they used to steal American wealth and power to build China for Moa.
         
         Traitors all.
         
         There is also no Conservative I know of anywhere that wanted to bail out any bank or Auto Cos... the latter was a bailout to the Unions... who love to bitch about the banks, but they got theirs too.
         
         Most of the money obama has spen went right into Union pockets... just as this next stimulus will do should it pass. Just another pay-out the Unions for the coming election... what a joke.

         replyreport
         1. 60

            peterxdunnposted 12 years agoin reply to this

            Do you not understand that American wars around the world have got nothing to do with democracy? The CIA has deliberately destabilized and brought down democratically elected governments: and then installed, muderous dictatorships, time and time again.
            
            The war in Afghanistan has got nothing to do with democracy. They're after a land route for an oil pipeline between Turkmenistan and the sea. It wasn't about bin Laden either - the Taleban were offering to hand him over back in the nineties.
            
            What you are saying about China also beggars belief. China has benefitted from greedy American (and British, French etc) investors seeking to exploit cheap Chinese labour. It is the greedy rich that are behind all America's problems. Try watching something other than the Fox News. You might learn something.

            replyreport
            1. 60

               TMMasonposted 12 years agoin reply to this

               Man you just hate the US and Christians huh?
               
               That is what the American Left and Progressives call Democracy.
               
               Thus my example of Moa's China. Do you really think China is a Democracy, or ever has been?
               
               That is the game the America Left and Progressives have played for decades.
               
               It was and is all about getting the people in those countries to run to anything other than what America backs or wants.
               
               Mostly Commies/Marxist/Socialists, but in the Middle East it was Islam. Who do you think put the dictators in charge that are being over-thrown now to allow the Muslim-Brotherhood to sieze control of all the power and countries they can?
               
               Why do you think the worlds hates America?
               
               It has been a devious lil game that the Left and Progressives have played to get the world to reject America and all it stands for.
               
               You know how many Americans for decades have been watching our Govt and asking why they would do what they are doing? Americans know that what our govt has done is far from American.
               
               It is like people and the, "Communism is dead", BS, cause the Wall fell... all the falling of the wall was for was to let communism out world-wide. Stalin's Commintern and the American Left, through the CIA and U.S. State Dept, spent decades seeding the world for the rise of Marxianism in all its forms, and the American left And Progressives assisted in all they could of it.
               
               That is why I say... traitors all.
               
               And please... fox news is a centrist progressive station... get a life and drop the talking points. I garauntee you my range of news sources is alot more than you would read... I know for a fact you wouldn't go near a conservative site. Actually you sound like one of those HufferPuffers from the post with Arianna.
               
               And I don't know where you got half the stuff in your posts to rant about?.. Alex jones maybe?... you sound like a Alex jones listener... lol ah you all are a laugh riot.
               
               I haven't mentioned Afghan or alot of the other BS your ona rant about. You are just straight anti-American/ anti Christian... people like you are really funny... lolololol.

               replyreport
               1. 60

                  peterxdunnposted 12 years agoin reply to this

                  I admire a great many Americans. And most of what I know about American foreign policy and corruption within the banking sector comes from American writers on American websites. I also admire the American constitution - if only your governments would live up to it and stop the fraudulent banksters from trampling all over it.
                  
                  I also love American music. Especially Jimi Hendrix.
                  
                  Arianna? Never heard of her.
                  
                  I used Afghanistan as an example because your government's spokespeople: such as Hilary Clinton, try and justify the American presence in Afghanistan by saying that you are there to spread democracy. Anyone that is actually paying attention to what is really going on in the world knows that this is a lie.
                  
                  I don't hate Christians either - even though their ignorance and refusal to deal with the real issues: in the real world, will probably get us all killed when the coming religious war for oil in the middle east escalates into a full blown nuclear exchange.

                  replyreport
   3. 60

      peterxdunnposted 12 years agoin reply to this

      And another thing. Doesn't the 'public treasury' actually belong to the...er... public?
      
      Or is it just there to bail out the banks when they crash the economy by fraudulently issuing mortgages and then fraudulently repackaging them as securitized debt?

      replyreport